Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2016: New early state polling has Trump looking even str

124

Comments

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137

    On topic, Senior Republicans need to tell some of these candidates that it is time to throw in the towel. Gilmore, Pataki, Jindal, Perry, Santorum, Graham (only 4% in his home state), Christie and Huckabee all look like no hopers to me.

    The money will soon dry up for these guys - that usually does the trick.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    On the topic of trains - aren't modern carriages packed full of CCTV? Everywhere else seems to be these days.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    How much of the women-only carriages idea is being driven by communities where sexual segregation is the norm?

    You mean members of golf clubs?
    But they are relaxing those kind of rules whereas the left are now introducing them

    Its what made me stop being a lefty. For 30 odd years I thought they really wanted equality, but in reality they just want to be the ones that get to choose who to discriminate against
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    A late good morning to all.

    As the markets continue their Chinese Falls, Mat Couthon sings "I'm at the bottom of the well". Will he be handed a rope?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    JackW said:
    I knew that you are ancient JackW, but blimey, Methuselah?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Corbyn will now need a sense of humor:

    "For the last time, sir, this is an Ewok-only carriage" pic.twitter.com/nyVii6w4tT

    — Rob Corp (@RobertCorp) August 26, 2015
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,996


    How much extra are you prepared to pay for them, given that with Oyster cards and now contactless credit cards they are no longer needed for, you know, selling tickets?

    You would be surprised how often they are used - the machines are far from reliable and if the machines are faulty and you need to top up your Oyster, what can you do ? The ticket office at East Ham is mercifully still open and gets plenty of trade.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    What if every other carriage bar the women only one is full to the brim, and a mother and father with their two sons want to get on the tube? Do we really expect them to have to wait for the next one? What if its the last one?
  • http://englishrussia.com/2007/08/13/abandoned-trains-of-the-soviet-era/

    All hail Comrade Corbyn's glorious railway of the proletariat!
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    Off topic, I see that the non-UK born population has now hit 8 million, which is almost certainly an underestimate, and that's not far off 15% of the population. Meanwhile net migration is continuing to run well north of 300k a year.

    Just when is Cameron going to get a grip on this?

    The minute governments that oversee allegedly-unacceptable net migration figures stop getting returned with majorities, I guess?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,977
    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    On the topic of trains - aren't modern carriages packed full of CCTV? Everywhere else seems to be these days.

    Mast of our trains have closed-circuit television (CCTV) to ensure a safer environment for both our customers and our staff.

    https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/our-business/safety
  • isam said:

    What if every other carriage bar the women only one is full to the brim, and a mother and father with their two sons want to get on the tube? Do we really expect them to have to wait for the next one? What if its the last one?

    If they're BME then exceptions can, indeed must, be made. But if they're white then yes we certainly do expect them to wait. All night if need be. And while they're waiting they can reflect on how ghastly the British Empire was and how guilty they should feel about it.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,313
    stodge said:


    How much extra are you prepared to pay for them, given that with Oyster cards and now contactless credit cards they are no longer needed for, you know, selling tickets?

    You would be surprised how often they are used - the machines are far from reliable and if the machines are faulty and you need to top up your Oyster, what can you do ? The ticket office at East Ham is mercifully still open and gets plenty of trade.

    You don't need to top up your Oyster. You can use a contactless credit or debit card or have it on auto top up.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    dr_spyn said:

    On the topic of trains - aren't modern carriages packed full of CCTV? Everywhere else seems to be these days.

    Mast of our trains have closed-circuit television (CCTV) to ensure a safer environment for both our customers and our staff.

    https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/our-business/safety
    Of course CCTV didn't exist 30 years ago when Corbyn last made his mind up.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    You'd think it would be a sensible idea to let people pay their fare on a bus too. However, that hasn't been possible in central London for many years and the facility has, I think, now been withdrawn on all London buses. All for the convenience and safety of passengers I am sure.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515
    dr_spyn said:

    On the topic of trains - aren't modern carriages packed full of CCTV? Everywhere else seems to be these days.

    Mast of our trains have closed-circuit television (CCTV) to ensure a safer environment for both our customers and our staff.

    https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/our-business/safety
    And they're recorded. Which is why reporting of all incidents needs to be encouraged.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    dr_spyn said:

    On the topic of trains - aren't modern carriages packed full of CCTV? Everywhere else seems to be these days.

    Mast of our trains have closed-circuit television (CCTV) to ensure a safer environment for both our customers and our staff.

    https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/our-business/safety
    And they're recorded. Which is why reporting of all incidents needs to be encouraged.
    And there is a special taxi service for assailants provided by blue light cars.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,259

    stodge said:


    How much extra are you prepared to pay for them, given that with Oyster cards and now contactless credit cards they are no longer needed for, you know, selling tickets?

    You would be surprised how often they are used - the machines are far from reliable and if the machines are faulty and you need to top up your Oyster, what can you do ? The ticket office at East Ham is mercifully still open and gets plenty of trade.

    You don't need to top up your Oyster. You can use a contactless credit or debit card or have it on auto top up.

    Can you use contactless on the buses too?
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    JackW said:
    "The train now departing is the 1745 ...."
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,313

    stodge said:


    How much extra are you prepared to pay for them, given that with Oyster cards and now contactless credit cards they are no longer needed for, you know, selling tickets?

    You would be surprised how often they are used - the machines are far from reliable and if the machines are faulty and you need to top up your Oyster, what can you do ? The ticket office at East Ham is mercifully still open and gets plenty of trade.

    You don't need to top up your Oyster. You can use a contactless credit or debit card or have it on auto top up.

    Can you use contactless on the buses too?
    Yep. And as long as you use the same one, the cap is applied. You don't even have to register it, although you can if you want to be able to look up your journeys online.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Disraeli said:

    JackW said:
    "The train now departing is the 1745 ...."
    Chortle .... :smile:

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    As @theuniondivvie mentioned earlier, Corbyns womens carriage nonsense has also been mooted by Conservatives this year
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    *claps*

    dr_spyn said:

    On the topic of trains - aren't modern carriages packed full of CCTV? Everywhere else seems to be these days.

    Mast of our trains have closed-circuit television (CCTV) to ensure a safer environment for both our customers and our staff.

    https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/about-us/our-business/safety
    Of course CCTV didn't exist 30 years ago when Corbyn last made his mind up.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited August 2015
    Jonathan said:

    Odd statement to make given there are always massive queues at the windows. I guess people are taking a final look at what customer service looks like.

    I've no idea what they are doing. My guess is that they must be tourists being fleeced by the high one-off ticket prices, and I think the solution is therefore better information for tourists.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited August 2015
    isam said:

    As @theuniondivvie mentioned earlier, Corbyns womens carriage nonsense has also been mooted by Conservatives this year

    It was bollocks then too.

    But they weren't suggesting any of the other crackpot craziness that Corbyn's spouting now, hence the interest, and ridicule.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Jonathan said:

    Odd statement to make given there are always massive queues at the windows. I guess people are taking a final look at what customer service looks like.

    I've no idea what they are doing. My guess is that they must be tourists being fleeced by the high one-off ticket prices, and I think the solution is therefore better information for tourists.
    Any able-bodied tourist who wants to use the London underground is de facto monumentally stupid and deserves to be ripped off.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    twitter.com/itvnews/status/636499966706511872

    Novel defence - watching Blue Peter to make bombs - sugar, phosphates, sticky backed plastic....
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    On topic, Senior Republicans need to tell some of these candidates that it is time to throw in the towel. Gilmore, Pataki, Jindal, Perry, Santorum, Graham (only 4% in his home state), Christie and Huckabee all look like no hopers to me.

    The money will soon dry up for these guys - that usually does the trick.
    Perry has already stopped paying some of his campaign bills. The betting is that he will be the first to drop out. Huckabee hung around last cycle, but I just don't get the feeling his heart is really in it this time, so my guess is that he will drop out fairly early too. But the bulk are likely to be there for the first 2-3 caucuses/primaries
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Totally O/T

    Just had a long telephone call from an ex EU committee friend who lives in Agen (Lot et Garonne). He is a Brit and runs his insurance brokerage from there - for over the last 15 years.

    His comments on the French approach to the EU are interesting. Apparently French local and national law, in practice, over-rides any EU legislation - unless it is in the French interest. He confirmed that in general EU rules are ignored in France and just cannot understand why the UK does not do the same. The same practices apply to the interpretations of the ECHR rulings.

    We got to be friends many moons ago when we spent the odd-weekend or few at Cap d'Antibes - watching the ladies go by.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited August 2015

    Any able-bodied tourist who wants to use the London underground is de facto monumentally stupid and deserves to be ripped off.

    True, but it would be cheaper to rip them off by telling them about Oyster & contactless cards than by paying staff to sit behind windows ripping them off one by one.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,313

    Jonathan said:

    Odd statement to make given there are always massive queues at the windows. I guess people are taking a final look at what customer service looks like.

    I've no idea what they are doing. My guess is that they must be tourists being fleeced by the high one-off ticket prices, and I think the solution is therefore better information for tourists.
    Any able-bodied tourist who wants to use the London underground is de facto monumentally stupid and deserves to be ripped off.
    How else are you supposed to get round London?

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,967
    I think the windows of my Midlands office just rattled following the *headdesk* by the editor of Labour Uncut.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Farage-Rail one way ticket service from Dover to Calais :

    http://www.heapsoffun.com/pictures/20120106/funny_train_overload_1012.jpg
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515

    Jonathan said:

    Odd statement to make given there are always massive queues at the windows. I guess people are taking a final look at what customer service looks like.

    I've no idea what they are doing. My guess is that they must be tourists being fleeced by the high one-off ticket prices, and I think the solution is therefore better information for tourists.
    Any able-bodied tourist who wants to use the London underground is de facto monumentally stupid and deserves to be ripped off.
    How else are you supposed to get round London?

    Walk. The last few times I've been to London I've walked from King's Cross to wherever I've needed to go. For tourists, it's a great way of seeing the city.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,967

    Jonathan said:

    Odd statement to make given there are always massive queues at the windows. I guess people are taking a final look at what customer service looks like.

    I've no idea what they are doing. My guess is that they must be tourists being fleeced by the high one-off ticket prices, and I think the solution is therefore better information for tourists.
    Any able-bodied tourist who wants to use the London underground is de facto monumentally stupid and deserves to be ripped off.
    How else are you supposed to get round London?

    Walk. The last few times I've been to London I've walked from King's Cross to wherever I've needed to go. For tourists, it's a great way of seeing the city.
    borisbike
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,419

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,977
    Mr. Pulpstar, people having money but being unable to pay for something is dystopian.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Jonathan said:

    Odd statement to make given there are always massive queues at the windows. I guess people are taking a final look at what customer service looks like.

    I've no idea what they are doing. My guess is that they must be tourists being fleeced by the high one-off ticket prices, and I think the solution is therefore better information for tourists.
    Any able-bodied tourist who wants to use the London underground is de facto monumentally stupid and deserves to be ripped off.
    How else are you supposed to get round London?

    Walk. The last few times I've been to London I've walked from King's Cross to wherever I've needed to go. For tourists, it's a great way of seeing the city.
    Quite right, Mr. Jessop. Tourist London is really very small and an able bodied person can walk the whole width of it in an hour or so.

    The alternative for those who are feeling lazy is to take a bus and travel on the top deck, a mode of transport which offers some great views from interesting angles.

    Of course, really sensible tourists who want to understand what they are seeing would equip themselves with a self-guided walking tour, which reminds me I have work to do.

    Play nicely, everyone.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I believe that every station is going to be staffed - which is not the case atm, aiui. It is just that the staff will be roving around to help customers rather than stuck in the offices.

    That might just be misremembering, or pro-Boris propaganda. ;)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2015
    Financier said:

    Totally O/T

    Just had a long telephone call from an ex EU committee friend who lives in Agen (Lot et Garonne). He is a Brit and runs his insurance brokerage from there - for over the last 15 years.

    His comments on the French approach to the EU are interesting. Apparently French local and national law, in practice, over-rides any EU legislation - unless it is in the French interest. He confirmed that in general EU rules are ignored in France and just cannot understand why the UK does not do the same. The same practices apply to the interpretations of the ECHR rulings.

    We got to be friends many moons ago when we spent the odd-weekend or few at Cap d'Antibes - watching the ladies go by.

    I thought we've known for that a long time. For example IIRC the French ignored the rules which said British beef was safe to buy for many years.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Icarus said:

    People not born in the UK include my wife who was born in Tangier. As it was in the international zone and her mother was Scottish is that OK?

    Get over immigrants, they are not the problem. Corbyn is quite right movements of people e.g.lots of Scots to Corby to work in the steel industry need schools etc.

    Icarus said:

    People not born in the UK include my wife who was born in Tangier. As it was in the international zone and her mother was Scottish is that OK?


    Get over immigrants, they are not the problem. Corbyn is quite right movements of people e.g.lots of Scots to Corby to work in the steel industry need schools etc.



    Using Corby as a example for poor mass immigration from rest of the world,just pathetic.


    People like you are the problem,mass poor immigration equals good and the poor Brit's (That includes British born ethnic minorities)quality of life can be ignored .

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,313

    Jonathan said:

    Odd statement to make given there are always massive queues at the windows. I guess people are taking a final look at what customer service looks like.

    I've no idea what they are doing. My guess is that they must be tourists being fleeced by the high one-off ticket prices, and I think the solution is therefore better information for tourists.
    Any able-bodied tourist who wants to use the London underground is de facto monumentally stupid and deserves to be ripped off.
    How else are you supposed to get round London?

    Walk. The last few times I've been to London I've walked from King's Cross to wherever I've needed to go. For tourists, it's a great way of seeing the city.
    Well, yes, I do quite a lot of that, and some things are surprisingly close together. When I worked in London I walked from Waterloo to Green Park and back every day. But not everything is within easy walking distance and not everyone wants to walk long distances especially if they want to fit several things in in one day or do something that involves a lot of walking in itself, like visit a museum.

    I have found a way of getting a cheap hotel on holiday is to find one that is a little way from the town centre but next to a metro station, they often get poor ratings on TripAdvisor, usually from Americans complaining about the expensive taxi ride to the centre. The other one is hotels without lifts: I am quite capable of walking up stairs, thank you, and wouldn't dream of going on holiday with luggage I can't handle myself.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2015
    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Outrageous that there isn't a cash option, I agree. I could suffer it being bad value compared to a pass/Oyster, surely that's a fair compromise?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Anyway, there's some real news today:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34063087

    Northern Ireland looks as though it's going to take another spin on the waltzer.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!

    No, Perry is an idiot.
  • Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!

    Now you are regretting voting for him aren't you ?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!

    Left doesn't have a monopoly of pathetic ideas, and Perry proves the point.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,728

    Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!

    What makes you think Claire Perry holds Conservative views when it comes to social policy?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,844

    Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!

    What makes you think Claire Perry holds Conservative views when it comes to social policy?
    If you take that report as an accurate representation of what she said, she didn't suggest it - she was merely saying that she would be looking at how other countries handle the issue. It is one thing to investigate options, a completely different one to announce it as policy.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Latest Canadian poll:

    Con 30.1%
    Lib 29.9%
    NDP 29.1%
    Green 5.2%
    BQ 4.7%

    http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,728
    antifrank said:

    Anyway, there's some real news today:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34063087

    Northern Ireland looks as though it's going to take another spin on the waltzer.

    NI could really do without this crap. A sensible long-term solution has been found and it now deserves the economic prosperity and development that the rest of the UK enjoys.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,341
    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Agreed. I worry about there not being a cash option on buses, particularly late at night. What if a girl is travelling home on a late bus, has only cash, gets turned away and something awful happens to her? There ought to be the option to take cash in such circumstances.

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Agreed. I worry about there not being a cash option on buses, particularly late at night. What if a girl is travelling home on a late bus, has only cash, gets turned away and something awful happens to her? There ought to be the option to take cash in such circumstances.

    Already happened.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151270/Woman-student-22-savagely-raped-thrown-night-bus-20p-short-cost-fare.html

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,259
    AndyJS said:

    Latest Canadian poll:

    Con 30.1%
    Lib 29.9%
    NDP 29.1%
    Green 5.2%
    BQ 4.7%

    http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html

    On course for a 3-way tie in vote share and a progressive coalition led by a beardie.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,341

    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Agreed. I worry about there not being a cash option on buses, particularly late at night. What if a girl is travelling home on a late bus, has only cash, gets turned away and something awful happens to her? There ought to be the option to take cash in such circumstances.

    Already happened.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151270/Woman-student-22-savagely-raped-thrown-night-bus-20p-short-cost-fare.html

    An awful story. The bus driver should be ashamed of himself.

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Agreed. I worry about there not being a cash option on buses, particularly late at night. What if a girl is travelling home on a late bus, has only cash, gets turned away and something awful happens to her? There ought to be the option to take cash in such circumstances.

    Already happened.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151270/Woman-student-22-savagely-raped-thrown-night-bus-20p-short-cost-fare.html

    In Nottingham, one should add.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,728
    AndyJS said:

    Latest Canadian poll:

    Con 30.1%
    Lib 29.9%
    NDP 29.1%
    Green 5.2%
    BQ 4.7%

    http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html

    IMHO the Canadian Tories will come out ahead on seats. But either be a minority NDP government with the Liberals sulking in the background (no coalition) or back to a Con Minority.

    For the latter, Harper will have to be not far off an overall majority, say 150 seats+, and the NDP/Liberals will try to bring it down as soon as they can.

    I can't see Harper dropping below 120 seats.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,728

    Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!

    What makes you think Claire Perry holds Conservative views when it comes to social policy?
    If you take that report as an accurate representation of what she said, she didn't suggest it - she was merely saying that she would be looking at how other countries handle the issue. It is one thing to investigate options, a completely different one to announce it as policy.
    She has form.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,728
    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Agreed. I worry about there not being a cash option on buses, particularly late at night. What if a girl is travelling home on a late bus, has only cash, gets turned away and something awful happens to her? There ought to be the option to take cash in such circumstances.

    I agree. And I don't think I've ever met a London bus driver who wasn't a rude dickhead either.

    Is it past of the job description?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2015
    Horrendous! Guardian journo spoken to by man outside Yoga studio.. maybe women should dress head to toe in black with just an gap for their eyes to make it absolutely clear to everyone they are not to be spoken to or looked at?

    " I thought of the incident again on my way to yoga today. “I keep seeing you around – what’s your name?” asked a man outside the studio. I didn’t want to tell him, but I didn’t want to seem unfriendly or uptight. I was delighted when he misheard it, and didn’t correct him.

    I know I’m not a special case. I suspect I experience as much harassment as the next young(ish) woman living in the centre of a city. Some women say they can ignore it entirely; others say they like elements of it. But it makes me feel fearful, anxious, and wildly self-conscious. I’m also regularly reading about the harassment of other women, which is widely reported on in social media, especially in Laura Bates’s excellent @EverydaySexism feed.


    Every incident of harassment I witness, whether it’s at first- or second-hand, is making my world a little bit smaller and scarier. I don’t go out dancing any more, even though I adore it – because I know from experience that something bad might happen if I have to get home after midnight and the streets are full of potentially terrifying men who might not take it well if I don’t want to stop and say hello."

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/20/sexual-harassment-women-curfew
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!

    Now you are regretting voting for him aren't you ?
    Well its certainly a stupid idea he has put forward
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782
    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Agreed. I worry about there not being a cash option on buses, particularly late at night. What if a girl is travelling home on a late bus, has only cash, gets turned away and something awful happens to her? There ought to be the option to take cash in such circumstances.

    With an Oyster card there is an 'Emergency' Option - which allows you to go overdrawn, but you have to Top-Up again before using it again.

    In response to antifranks 'anti-surveillance' type point - it is one I agree with, and why I try to use an unregistered Oyster card.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Good luck not being tracked on the London Underground. Virtually every station has CCTV that can cover you from entering the station, going down the escalators, and onto the platform. The whole city has sleepwalked into a surveillance society, with bipartisan support at the top.
  • madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659
    AndyJS said:

    Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!

    No, Perry is an idiot.
    SO looking at ideas makes you an idiot?
    Some are so quick to condemn ideas.... must be a Tory:-)
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Financier said:

    Totally O/T

    Just had a long telephone call from an ex EU committee friend who lives in Agen (Lot et Garonne). He is a Brit and runs his insurance brokerage from there - for over the last 15 years.

    His comments on the French approach to the EU are interesting. Apparently French local and national law, in practice, over-rides any EU legislation - unless it is in the French interest. He confirmed that in general EU rules are ignored in France and just cannot understand why the UK does not do the same. The same practices apply to the interpretations of the ECHR rulings.

    We got to be friends many moons ago when we spent the odd-weekend or few at Cap d'Antibes - watching the ladies go by.

    It does seem like the modus operandi for the EU throughout Europe, and the EU is happy to go along with it. Switzerland is now limiting immigration against EU treaties, and the EU kicked up a bit of a fuss but has now shrugged its shoulders and is moving on.

    My preference would always be to fight against this sort of thing: make sensible rules and then make sure they are enforced. But if the EU is going to carry on with its current direction, and we're going to remain a member, perhaps we need to just treat it the way everyone else does, and not enforce the bits we dislike.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon 3m3 minutes ago
    Burnham: the modern Labour Party wouldn't have been capable of creating the NHS as it doesn't have sufficient "ambition"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Tory transport minister Claire Perry also suggested it in September's Conservative party conference .

    She told a fringe event: "They have introduced women-only seating in Japan because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence.

    "It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas."

    Corbyn is a f***ing Tory!!

    We should have known, it was so obvious in hindsight.

    AndyJS said:

    Latest Canadian poll:

    Con 30.1%
    Lib 29.9%
    NDP 29.1%
    Green 5.2%
    BQ 4.7%

    http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html

    IMHO the Canadian Tories will come out ahead on seats. But either be a minority NDP government with the Liberals sulking in the background (no coalition) or back to a Con Minority.

    For the latter, Harper will have to be not far off an overall majority, say 150 seats+, and the NDP/Liberals will try to bring it down as soon as they can.

    I can't see Harper dropping below 120 seats.
    Seems fairly impressive given how long he has been in office, minority and otherwise. Didn't his minority government fail a vote of no confidence due to scandal, only to be returned with a majority by the public?

    Sensible rule, or hopeless opposition?
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    isam said:

    Horrendous! Guardian journo spoken to by man outside Yoga studio.. maybe women should dress head to toe in black with just an gap for their eyes to make it absolutely clear to everyone they are not to be spoken to or looked at?

    " I thought of the incident again on my way to yoga today. “I keep seeing you around – what’s your name?” asked a man outside the studio. I didn’t want to tell him, but I didn’t want to seem unfriendly or uptight. I was delighted when he misheard it, and didn’t correct him.

    I know I’m not a special case. I suspect I experience as much harassment as the next young(ish) woman living in the centre of a city. Some women say they can ignore it entirely; others say they like elements of it. But it makes me feel fearful, anxious, and wildly self-conscious. I’m also regularly reading about the harassment of other women, which is widely reported on in social media, especially in Laura Bates’s excellent @EverydaySexism feed.


    Every incident of harassment I witness, whether it’s at first- or second-hand, is making my world a little bit smaller and scarier. I don’t go out dancing any more, even though I adore it – because I know from experience that something bad might happen if I have to get home after midnight and the streets are full of potentially terrifying men who might not take it well if I don’t want to stop and say hello."

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/20/sexual-harassment-women-curfew

    What on Earth does "potentially terrifying" mean?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,341
    edited August 2015
    Lennon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    .

    .
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Agreed. I worry about there not being a cash option on buses, particularly late at night. What if a girl is travelling home on a late bus, has only cash, gets turned away and something awful happens to her? There ought to be the option to take cash in such circumstances.

    With an Oyster card there is an 'Emergency' Option - which allows you to go overdrawn, but you have to Top-Up again before using it again.

    In response to antifranks 'anti-surveillance' type point - it is one I agree with, and why I try to use an unregistered Oyster card.
    Well you might not have a card - if it's been lost or stolen. Since we can't apparently rely on a bit of commonsense or even plain old-fashioned care, then there should be the option of cash.

    Many years ago when I was living in Naples as a young girl I was going home late on the bus. I was alone and the stop was not far from where I lived but the bus driver insisted on driving me to the door because he said that there were bad people around at that time and he did not want me to take the risk. Old-fashioned maybe but an example of someone behaving like a human being.

    I strongly endorse the 18-inch force field ring advice from MrTimT. It's not women who are the problem here but the assaulters and it is they who must be dealt with not the victims.

    I refuse to be or to be treated as a victim and if anyone were to try and attack me they would soon regret it. I think those who assault people on public transport should be made to suffer by the police and judicial authorities. Not have this pathetic "oh we can't do anything, oh dear, oh dear, perhaps if we hid the victims away, maybe that will be enough to make it look as if we're doing something". Feeble nonsense the lot of it.

    Anyway, FWIW I'm reposting my advice from last night, some of which I learnt from my own very gentlemanly father on how to deal with sex pests on public transport.

    "I find that a sharp pin (brooches are useful) when inserted into somewhere soft belonging to the offending groper works very well. Stiletto heels aimed at the toes are good. And if all else fails, being prepared to embarrass someone can work a treat. "8 am is a bit early for a w*nk, don't you think?" Or "Can I offer you a tissue?" said in your loudest voice can work well."

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    dr_spyn said:

    Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon 3m3 minutes ago
    Burnham: the modern Labour Party wouldn't have been capable of creating the NHS as it doesn't have sufficient "ambition"

    Burnham, the former Labour minister who privatised a hospital. He deserves to lose big.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,341

    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Stodge, not a Londoner (as is known) but it seems utterly backward to close ticket offices. Smacks of a decision done for the convenience of the operators rather than the customers/travellers.

    They really aren't needed now the payment system is all contactless. What you need are tech bods on call in case the gates stop working or so forth.
    I don't have a contactless card.

    TfL seem to be making their systems more and more offputting for someone like me who likes cash and dislikes being tracked.
    Agreed. I worry about there not being a cash option on buses, particularly late at night. What if a girl is travelling home on a late bus, has only cash, gets turned away and something awful happens to her? There ought to be the option to take cash in such circumstances.

    I agree. And I don't think I've ever met a London bus driver who wasn't a rude dickhead either.

    Is it past of the job description?
    Some of them can be nice. I think it can be a thankless job sometimes so when they are nice e.g. by holding the door for me etc I do make a point of thanking them.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,341
    JEO said:

    Financier said:

    Totally O/T

    Just had a long telephone call from an ex EU committee friend who lives in Agen (Lot et Garonne). He is a Brit and runs his insurance brokerage from there - for over the last 15 years.

    His comments on the French approach to the EU are interesting. Apparently French local and national law, in practice, over-rides any EU legislation - unless it is in the French interest. He confirmed that in general EU rules are ignored in France and just cannot understand why the UK does not do the same. The same practices apply to the interpretations of the ECHR rulings.

    We got to be friends many moons ago when we spent the odd-weekend or few at Cap d'Antibes - watching the ladies go by.

    It does seem like the modus operandi for the EU throughout Europe, and the EU is happy to go along with it. Switzerland is now limiting immigration against EU treaties, and the EU kicked up a bit of a fuss but has now shrugged its shoulders and is moving on.

    My preference would always be to fight against this sort of thing: make sensible rules and then make sure they are enforced. But if the EU is going to carry on with its current direction, and we're going to remain a member, perhaps we need to just treat it the way everyone else does, and not enforce the bits we dislike.
    That is one way of looking at it. But it's a strange sort of club where the only way of staying in it comfortably is to ignore the rules. It's fundamentally corrosive of the rule of law. And it's arbitrary and makes corruption far more likely. Plus I suspect that our courts would not allow us to get away with this sort of behaviour.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    My what a silly Hunt.

    Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon 5m5 minutes ago
    George Foulkes, hosting the Andy Burnham event: "Has anyone got any questions for Jeremy? Er, Andy"
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    isam said:

    Horrendous! Guardian journo spoken to by man outside Yoga studio.. maybe women should dress head to toe in black with just an gap for their eyes to make it absolutely clear to everyone they are not to be spoken to or looked at?

    " I thought of the incident again on my way to yoga today. “I keep seeing you around – what’s your name?” asked a man outside the studio. I didn’t want to tell him, but I didn’t want to seem unfriendly or uptight. I was delighted when he misheard it, and didn’t correct him.

    I know I’m not a special case. I suspect I experience as much harassment as the next young(ish) woman living in the centre of a city. Some women say they can ignore it entirely; others say they like elements of it. But it makes me feel fearful, anxious, and wildly self-conscious. I’m also regularly reading about the harassment of other women, which is widely reported on in social media, especially in Laura Bates’s excellent @EverydaySexism feed.


    Every incident of harassment I witness, whether it’s at first- or second-hand, is making my world a little bit smaller and scarier. I don’t go out dancing any more, even though I adore it – because I know from experience that something bad might happen if I have to get home after midnight and the streets are full of potentially terrifying men who might not take it well if I don’t want to stop and say hello."

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/20/sexual-harassment-women-curfew

    What on Earth does "potentially terrifying" mean?
    It's all absurd, especially this bit:

    "We’ve all been bothered by persistent guys who pester us relentlessly, believing themselves to be entitled to our company and more. We’re under pressure to be polite and manage their expectations. Ignored men are angry men, and it’s horrible to sit silently while a man shouts at a packed carriage: “She thinks she’s too good to talk to me!”"

    I've seen random people try to start up conversations on London trains. I've seen both men and women ignore them to then be greeted with a "Why are you ignoring me?" I don't see what's so wrong with just being courteous and polite while making it clear you don't want a conversation. It seems like some modern feminists are so desperate to be victims they make up things like 'microaggressions' so they can feel oppressed.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,900
    JEO said:

    Financier said:

    Totally O/T

    Just had a long telephone call from an ex EU committee friend who lives in Agen (Lot et Garonne). He is a Brit and runs his insurance brokerage from there - for over the last 15 years.

    His comments on the French approach to the EU are interesting. Apparently French local and national law, in practice, over-rides any EU legislation - unless it is in the French interest. He confirmed that in general EU rules are ignored in France and just cannot understand why the UK does not do the same. The same practices apply to the interpretations of the ECHR rulings.

    We got to be friends many moons ago when we spent the odd-weekend or few at Cap d'Antibes - watching the ladies go by.

    It does seem like the modus operandi for the EU throughout Europe, and the EU is happy to go along with it. Switzerland is now limiting immigration against EU treaties, and the EU kicked up a bit of a fuss but has now shrugged its shoulders and is moving on.

    My preference would always be to fight against this sort of thing: make sensible rules and then make sure they are enforced. But if the EU is going to carry on with its current direction, and we're going to remain a member, perhaps we need to just treat it the way everyone else does, and not enforce the bits we dislike.
    Which is why I said some time ago that I was realising that leadership of this country is a bigger priority than being members even of something as awful as the EU.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon 41s41 seconds ago
    Burnham: "In the last parliament I was fighting [the Tories] day in day out - I didn't see the same energy from some of my colleagues"

    Burnham trying to play the Holier than thou card.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Poor Andy, - looks more like an Alcoholic’s Anonymous meeting, but with fewer people.
    Plato said:
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited August 2015
    Cyclefree said:

    That is one way of looking at it. But it's a strange sort of club where the only way of staying in it comfortably is to ignore the rules. It's fundamentally corrosive of the rule of law. And it's arbitrary and makes corruption far more likely. Plus I suspect that our courts would not allow us to get away with this sort of behaviour.

    I suspect you are right, although it is long past time that governments explained to the courts whose job it is to make laws, and whose it is to enforce them. The lengths the courts go to to wriggle out of what they are clearly instructed to do in primary legislation is ridiculous. Happily we have Mr Gove at Justice, so who knows what might happen ;)

  • Oh Betfair, do you know what you're letting yourself in for?

    Ever wondered how much porn you have watched since Wayne Rooney last scored an away goal in the Premier League? Now you can find out…

    It's been about nine months since Wayne Rooney penetrated a Premier League defence away from home, and now you can finally find out how many minutes of naughtiness you've seen since Wazza last found the onion bag on his travels

    http://bit.ly/1Py99I3
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    Financier said:

    Totally O/T

    Just had a long telephone call from an ex EU committee friend who lives in Agen (Lot et Garonne). He is a Brit and runs his insurance brokerage from there - for over the last 15 years.

    His comments on the French approach to the EU are interesting. Apparently French local and national law, in practice, over-rides any EU legislation - unless it is in the French interest. He confirmed that in general EU rules are ignored in France and just cannot understand why the UK does not do the same. The same practices apply to the interpretations of the ECHR rulings.

    We got to be friends many moons ago when we spent the odd-weekend or few at Cap d'Antibes - watching the ladies go by.

    It does seem like the modus operandi for the EU throughout Europe, and the EU is happy to go along with it. Switzerland is now limiting immigration against EU treaties, and the EU kicked up a bit of a fuss but has now shrugged its shoulders and is moving on.

    My preference would always be to fight against this sort of thing: make sensible rules and then make sure they are enforced. But if the EU is going to carry on with its current direction, and we're going to remain a member, perhaps we need to just treat it the way everyone else does, and not enforce the bits we dislike.
    That is one way of looking at it. But it's a strange sort of club where the only way of staying in it comfortably is to ignore the rules. It's fundamentally corrosive of the rule of law. And it's arbitrary and makes corruption far more likely. Plus I suspect that our courts would not allow us to get away with this sort of behaviour.
    In Britain we have thousands of ambulance-chasing lawyers. If an EU rule is not upheld, some lawyer, for a contingency fee, or through legal aid, will sue the government on behalf of the parties involved.

  • I'd be interested to know what percentage of people really do care about how the country is run - I expect it would be very small. The majority of people I know are only interested in politics and government in only the most superficial way, insofar as it allows them to engage in virtue signalling on Facebook. (I know that's hardly a representative sample).

    It seems a lot of people are like this though, nowadays more than ever. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I wonder if there really has been any increase, and if social media has exacerbated this aspect of human behaviour.

    It doesn't look good for the future of politics anyway. People say they want substance over style, and the Corbyn surge would suggest that they really do, but the way politics is consumed appears more one-dimensional than ever. This is surely a recipe for disaster.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    dr_spyn said:

    Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon 41s41 seconds ago
    Burnham: "In the last parliament I was fighting [the Tories] day in day out - I didn't see the same energy from some of my colleagues"

    Burnham trying to play the Holier than thou card.

    Well, he's right. For as much (deserved) stick as he has got for his campaign, he was still a cut above most of the rest of the comatose shadow cabinet in the last parliament.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Cameraman and reporter shot dead live on Canadian tv...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515
    Bus drivers:

    Many moons ago, I lived on the Isle of Dogs. One night, I caught the last bus from uni. Sadly the bus route ended about a third of a mile away from my flat. The driver looked at my crutches, then checked there were no other passengers on board, before asking where I lived.

    He drove me to within thirty yards of my front door.

    I bet nowadays they'd get crucified if they did that.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    perdix said:

    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    Financier said:

    Totally O/T

    Just had a long telephone call from an ex EU committee friend who lives in Agen (Lot et Garonne). He is a Brit and runs his insurance brokerage from there - for over the last 15 years.

    His comments on the French approach to the EU are interesting. Apparently French local and national law, in practice, over-rides any EU legislation - unless it is in the French interest. He confirmed that in general EU rules are ignored in France and just cannot understand why the UK does not do the same. The same practices apply to the interpretations of the ECHR rulings.

    We got to be friends many moons ago when we spent the odd-weekend or few at Cap d'Antibes - watching the ladies go by.

    It does seem like the modus operandi for the EU throughout Europe, and the EU is happy to go along with it. Switzerland is now limiting immigration against EU treaties, and the EU kicked up a bit of a fuss but has now shrugged its shoulders and is moving on.

    My preference would always be to fight against this sort of thing: make sensible rules and then make sure they are enforced. But if the EU is going to carry on with its current direction, and we're going to remain a member, perhaps we need to just treat it the way everyone else does, and not enforce the bits we dislike.
    That is one way of looking at it. But it's a strange sort of club where the only way of staying in it comfortably is to ignore the rules. It's fundamentally corrosive of the rule of law. And it's arbitrary and makes corruption far more likely. Plus I suspect that our courts would not allow us to get away with this sort of behaviour.
    In Britain we have thousands of ambulance-chasing lawyers. If an EU rule is not upheld, some lawyer, for a contingency fee, or through legal aid, will sue the government on behalf of the parties involved.

    It was quite refreshing when the bankers were the most hated profession but I knew it would be our turn again soon...

    Not that I chase ambulances. No money in it.
Sign In or Register to comment.