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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    There isn't a majority of voters for a Right-Wing Tory Party either - only 37% for, 63% against but they still got a majority of seats.

    The question is what is the support for Corbyn's views from Labour, Green, , SNP, LibDems and some UKIP supporters, and can this support be focused to turn it into a winning coalition?
    One factor often overlooked. 30% do not vote. They are not people who do not register.

    They are registered and do not vote. Some are moving houses etc. but 20% of the registered electorate choose not to vote.

    The SNP found many of those actually would vote if the circumstances were right.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,009

    Mr. Barnesian, point of order: it's not 63% against the Conservatives, anymore than it was 64% against Labour in 2005, or 92% against the Lib Dems in 2015.

    There are only votes for individual candidates aspiring to become MPs. Nobody, ever, gets to cast a vote specifically against a party.

    92% of voters rejected LibDems candidates in 2015.

    You are being legalistic. In practice, most people vote for parties..
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    antifrank said:

    I'm surprised that Jeremy Corbyn's views on Ukraine and Russia haven't been highlighted yet. I expect the Tories are saving them to swiftboat him, but what's the excuse of the other Labour leadership candidates?

    Looks as if Jezza's grasp on history is not one his strong points.

    http://stopwar.org.uk/news/the-history-lurking-behind-the-crisis-in-ukraine-by-jeremy-corbyn-mp

    Looks like a bloody apologist for Russian expansion of its Western borders.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,164
    Financier said:

    New place for that summer holiday!

    Interplanetary travel could be a step closer after scientists confirmed that an electromagnetic propulsion drive, which is fast enough to get to the Moon in four hours, actually works.

    The EM Drive was developed by the British inventor Roger Shawyer nearly 15 years ago but was ridiculed at the time as being scientifically impossible.

    It produces thrust by using solar power to generate multiple microwaves that move back and forth in an enclosed chamber. This means that until something fails or wears down, theoretically the engine could keep running forever without the need for rocket fuel.

    The drive, which has been likened to Star Trek’s Impulse Drive, has left scientists scratching their heads because it defies one of the fundamental concepts of physics – the conservation of momentum – which states that if something is propelled forward, something must be pushed in the opposite direction. So the forces inside the chamber should cancel each other out.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/space/11769030/Impossible-rocket-drive-works-and-could-get-to-Moon-in-four-hours.html

    I've been following this for some time. At least he's getting a slightly better hearing than Prof. Laithwaite!
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    dr_spyn said:

    antifrank said:

    I'm surprised that Jeremy Corbyn's views on Ukraine and Russia haven't been highlighted yet. I expect the Tories are saving them to swiftboat him, but what's the excuse of the other Labour leadership candidates?

    Looks as if Jezza's grasp on history is not one his strong points.

    http://stopwar.org.uk/news/the-history-lurking-behind-the-crisis-in-ukraine-by-jeremy-corbyn-mp

    Looks like a bloody apologist for Russian expansion of its Western borders.
    You mean Russia protecting Russians ! Remind me what Falklands was all about .
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,019
    Mr. Eye, that's an unhelpful comparison.

    Are you really saying quarterly growth of 0.7% is bad?

    Mr. T, Elite Dangerous is a massive online space-faring game. Not my cup of tea (it's PC, and the genre probably isn't mine either), but very popular. Not even sure if it's out of beta yet.

    It's worth noting such games can be enormous. I think Eve was/is Iceland's third biggest export [apologies if wrong, it's half-remembered from about a year ago], and there are ships costing five figure sums (in real terms). One battle there destroyed ships worth literally millions of pounds.

    Mr. Barnesian, I'm being accurate. Party is a strong motivation, but not the only motivation, and nobody cast an anti-vote.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,291
    @surbiton Thanks to Stalin's deliberate policy of moving Russians into Estonia, Ukraine et al there is a Russian minority. Perhaps a population exchange might be the answer?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,164
    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. Jessop, you're concerned one might not be sufficient to invigorate you properly?

    One might invigorate me, two might be better, but they might have rather negative consequences on my ability to paint straight lines ...
    Never mind the light for painting will be gone soon. Time to crack open a second bottle and rev up the T7.
    Indeed. But the sooner I get the painting done, the sooner I can nip up to Scotland for a walk. ;)

    What are you flying at the moment? Are you a peaceful trader or a pusillanimous pirate?
    I run two ships, an A-specced but unarmed T6, RMS FlyingBrick, is my main one in which I earn a modest living as a trader with a bit of part-time smuggling. The other is an A-specced and definitely armed Vulture, but with 20T cargo space, for my more militant moods. I once had a top of the range Asp, RMS Kevin, but sold it as it was too boring.
    I'm trying to collect one of each type of ship (which will be difficult with the Imperial and Federal types). My main ones are a bounty-hunting Cobra, A combat Vulture, and a T7 for trading.

    Now if only I had a little more time ...
    And an Oculus Rift.

    Don't forget the Oculus Rift.
    I'm fascinated by OR (and the rivals), and it should make ED an amazing game. Now, I wonder how many brownie points I've stored in Mrs J's little red book ... ;)
    I have one, should you ever be passing through nw3
    Ah thanks, might take you up on that. Then again, I'm not sure when I'll next get an exeat slip. ;)
    What language are you guys speaking? ;)
    It started off as a conversation between myself and Mr Llama about Elite Dangerous, a computer game we both play. It then drifted onto Oculus Rift, a virtual reality system that might finally reach the potential the technology has shown for over twenty years.

    Not much to do with politics or betting, I'll freely admit.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,021
    surbiton said:

    dr_spyn said:

    antifrank said:

    I'm surprised that Jeremy Corbyn's views on Ukraine and Russia haven't been highlighted yet. I expect the Tories are saving them to swiftboat him, but what's the excuse of the other Labour leadership candidates?

    Looks as if Jezza's grasp on history is not one his strong points.

    http://stopwar.org.uk/news/the-history-lurking-behind-the-crisis-in-ukraine-by-jeremy-corbyn-mp

    Looks like a bloody apologist for Russian expansion of its Western borders.
    You mean Russia protecting Russians ! Remind me what Falklands was all about .
    What fraction in the Crimea were Russians?
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited July 2015
    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    WRONG on so many counts.
    People in this UK country are sick and tired of being lied to. From the right to the left, people are disillusioned with the present set up. They are sick and tired of being lied to, virtually on a machine made basis.

    GO today saying the UK economy is motoring on a 0.07 basis. My god, (if I had one) I would have sent the car to the scrap yard with that level of acceleration.
    Very good point, if you weren't out by a factor of ten. Try 0.7%
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    MTimT said:

    JEO said:

    Apparently, Eurotunnel spent 13 million Euros on security over the last six months, which means its 26 million a year. That's compared to 101 million in profits. It does seem like there reaches a point where it's not worth it any more if the migrant crisis gets a lot worse.

    Does anyone know if we have people smuggling aboard ferries?

    I am sure that if the security situation persists, they will come up with more permanent and efficient fixes for the problem, which will be up front investment but should bring the annual cost down. Imagine how high the security costs for prisons would be if they did not build walls etc..
    Perhaps the French (and the EU) could stop allowing them to first enter, then cross their country and subsequently actively aid and abet them to enter the UK. The Mayor of Calais recently blamed the British for the problem. By what twisted and bizarre logic she used to come up with that reasoning is off the spectrum.

    These are not asylum seekers in the true sense of the word genuine cases should be processed in the first safe country. Many are non EU citizens from beyond Europe who all want to come here. What's the matter with France? Good food, fine wines, sunny, Eurodisney and many commonly go on holiday there.........


    Or is it for another reason they want to come here? Illegally.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,164
    dr_spyn said:

    @surbiton Thanks to Stalin's deliberate policy of moving Russians into Estonia, Ukraine et al there is a Russian minority. Perhaps a population exchange might be the answer?

    A nice idea in theory, but it did not end too well for Greece and Turkey in 1923, yet alone for India and Pakistan 25 years later ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,012
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    AndyJS said:

    Not much point in writing a will anymore. A judge will overrule it if they're in the mood to do so.

    NOT true.. No point in being deliberately bloody minded and cutting people out of your will

    All reasonable wills will pass muster..
    You're not cutting anyone out because adult children do not have an automatic entitlement to your money.

    I think there is
    Do
    I've read the judgement now. It doesn't live up to its billing. It's not at all ground-breaking. The Appeal turned on how much Mrs. Ilott was entitled to. It was not disputed she was entitle

    By awarding her a sum sufficient to buy her Housing Association property, she will cease to receive Housing Benefit, producing a saving to the taxpayer.
    I have not read the judgment. Why was she entitled to something given the mother's expressed wishes?
    Because the 1975 Act allows her "such provision as is reasonable for her maintenance."

    The Act requires the Court to take into account any moral obligation that Mrs. Jackson had to her daughter
    I wonder then on what grounds someone is allowed to disinherit offspring, since 'not liking and having no relationship with them' was decided to not overcome that 'moral obligation' (an obligation to provide for an adult who is supposed to be responsible for themselves,but never mind).*

    It was also stated by someone earlier this would not apply in situations where someone has left different amounts to different siblings say, but if the principle is that, irrespective of the wishes of the deceased, reasonable provision for the maintenance of any children must be made, then surely it should on that basis, as some might need or 'deserve' more than the parent felt inclined to leave them.

    *It's not even that I agree with the woman's decision at all, it's just incredible to me that parents retain a moral obligation to provide for 50+ year old children they have no relationship with. That might be a good thing to do, but a moral obligation, which is also apparently a legal obligation?
    The legislation refers to a "moral obligation" which therefore becomes a legal obligation. If the testator has already made provision for the Claimant during her lifetime, then that legal/moral obligation will have been fulfilled. If the Claimant has behaved poorly towards the testator, there is no moral obligation to provide for her. If the Claimant has adequate financial resources, then she will fail to demonstrate any need for maintenance.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,164
    philiph said:

    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    WRONG on so many counts.
    People in this UK country are sick and tired of being lied to. From the right to the left, people are disillusioned with the present set up. They are sick and tired of being lied to, virtually on a machine made basis.

    GO today saying the UK economy is motoring on a 0.07 basis. My god, (if I had one) I would have sent the car to the scrap yard with that level of acceleration.
    Very good point, if you weren't out by a factor of ten. Try 0.7%
    And per quarter, not per annum.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,019
    Mr. Jessop, apparently Capcom are working on a horror game called Kitchen which seems to be quite frightening.

    A problem with VR is that you need to be on rails. So, great for a space game where you're in the pilot seat, less so for an open world RPG.

    I do think it, and augmented reality, has substantial potential.

    Mr. Moses, it's not surprise there's so many. We actively hunt for them, take them to Italy, give them food, shelter, medical care, free access to France from Italy, food in France, and then benefits whilst their claim is being process in the UK.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Just after Obama tries to sell a questionable nuke deal, which has Israel very upset, all of a sudden Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard is to be paroled.

    Nobody here will notice because within minutes of the announcement Roger Goodell upheld Tom Brady's 4 game suspension......

    Just sayin' ;)
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    surbiton said:

    dr_spyn said:

    antifrank said:

    I'm surprised that Jeremy Corbyn's views on Ukraine and Russia haven't been highlighted yet. I expect the Tories are saving them to swiftboat him, but what's the excuse of the other Labour leadership candidates?

    Looks as if Jezza's grasp on history is not one his strong points.

    http://stopwar.org.uk/news/the-history-lurking-behind-the-crisis-in-ukraine-by-jeremy-corbyn-mp

    Looks like a bloody apologist for Russian expansion of its Western borders.
    You mean Russia protecting Russians ! Remind me what Falklands was all about .
    Apples and oranges.

    I think you will find that 100% of the Falkland Islanders wanted to be protected from an external enemy.

    % wise How many Ukrainians did or still do for that matter want protection from what or whom? Other than the Russians of course?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,012
    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    There isn't a majority of voters for a Right-Wing Tory Party either - only 37% for, 63% against but they still got a majority of seats.

    The question is what is the support for Corbyn's views from Labour, Green, , SNP, LibDems and some UKIP supporters, and can this support be focused to turn it into a winning coalition?
    The Right won 51% of the vote. The Left won 40%. There is no mass of people who didn't turn out because Labour weren't Left-Win enough.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Moses_ said:

    MTimT said:

    JEO said:

    Apparently, Eurotunnel spent 13 million Euros on security over the last six months, which means its 26 million a year. That's compared to 101 million in profits. It does seem like there reaches a point where it's not worth it any more if the migrant crisis gets a lot worse.

    Does anyone know if we have people smuggling aboard ferries?

    I am sure that if the security situation persists, they will come up with more permanent and efficient fixes for the problem, which will be up front investment but should bring the annual cost down. Imagine how high the security costs for prisons would be if they did not build walls etc..
    Perhaps the French (and the EU) could stop allowing them to first enter, then cross their country and subsequently actively aid and abet them to enter the UK. The Mayor of Calais recently blamed the British for the problem. By what twisted and bizarre logic she used to come up with that reasoning is off the spectrum.

    These are not asylum seekers in the true sense of the word genuine cases should be processed in the first safe country. Many are non EU citizens from beyond Europe who all want to come here. What's the matter with France? Good food, fine wines, sunny, Eurodisney and many commonly go on holiday there.........


    Or is it for another reason they want to come here? Illegally.

    Maybe they are all rabid tangerines fans......
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,164

    Mr. Jessop, apparently Capcom are working on a horror game called Kitchen which seems to be quite frightening.

    A problem with VR is that you need to be on rails. So, great for a space game where you're in the pilot seat, less so for an open world RPG.

    I do think it, and augmented reality, has substantial potential.

    (snip)

    Frontier (*) Developments, the developer behind Elite, which is said to be one of the best Oculus Rift games, has announced a new Rollercoaster game, "Planet Coaster". Given their success with VR with Elite, it will be interesting to see how (and if) they tackle VR on a rollercoaster game.

    It could end up with unfortunate results for the users!

    (*) The game company, not the much superior Cambridge tech company that has nearly the same name. Ahem.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    There isn't a majority of voters for a Right-Wing Tory Party either - only 37% for, 63% against but they still got a majority of seats.

    The question is what is the support for Corbyn's views from Labour, Green, , SNP, LibDems and some UKIP supporters, and can this support be focused to turn it into a winning coalition?
    The Right won 51% of the vote. The Left won 40%. There is no mass of people who didn't turn out because Labour weren't Left-Win enough.
    Hmmm. Before the election UKIP were claiming to be not to be right wing.
  • Options
    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    dr_spyn said:

    antifrank said:

    I'm surprised that Jeremy Corbyn's views on Ukraine and Russia haven't been highlighted yet. I expect the Tories are saving them to swiftboat him, but what's the excuse of the other Labour leadership candidates?

    Looks as if Jezza's grasp on history is not one his strong points.

    http://stopwar.org.uk/news/the-history-lurking-behind-the-crisis-in-ukraine-by-jeremy-corbyn-mp

    Looks like a bloody apologist for Russian expansion of its Western borders.
    You mean Russia protecting Russians ! Remind me what Falklands was all about .
    What fraction in the Crimea were Russians?
    They'd have to be Russian citizens, rather than just ethnic Russians, to be comparable to the Falklands. Also, the Russians in Crimea and the Donbass were under no threat.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    sooooooooo.. How much spleen has been vented on a "private" poll.. I thought PB'ers would have learnt their lessons from the GE2015. DONT TRUST POLLS.
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    There isn't a majority of voters for a Right-Wing Tory Party either - only 37% for, 63% against but they still got a majority of seats.

    The question is what is the support for Corbyn's views from Labour, Green, , SNP, LibDems and some UKIP supporters, and can this support be focused to turn it into a winning coalition?
    The Right won 51% of the vote. The Left won 40%. There is no mass of people who didn't turn out because Labour weren't Left-Win enough.
    Hmmm. Before the election UKIP were claiming to be not to be right wing.
    Cameron was also pretty much trying to place the Conservatives in the centre, as opposed to the Right of British politics.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight
  • Options
    valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 605
    Danny565 said:

    My current preferences stand as:

    1. Corbyn
    2. Burnham
    3. Cooper
    4. Kendall

    It's entirely possible that I could crash back down to earth and relegate Jez to 2nd or 3rd before voting, though.

    I genuinely am unsure which way to jump, although i am fairly sure either Corbyn or Cooper will be 1st and 2nd preferences. On the other hand I may just change my mind on the day!
    I was disappointed with Burnham at the hustings I attended.
    I am sure there are many more members like ourselves who may change their mind at the 11th hour so the result is still up in the air IMO.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,051
    Jonathan said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. HYUFD, we should monitor that and see whether second preferences alter in light of Corbyn's status as frontrunner.

    The left are all putting Corbyn first, Kendall's supporters putting him last, Cooper supporters behind Burnham, Burnham supporters behind Cooper. Corbyn will certainly come top in the first round, he could yet lose on preferences
    As a LK supporter I will put JC second, AB third and YC last. The last two are awful, and even JC is a better prospect.
    Well there is always one isn't there! Yougov has Kendall's preferences breaking Cooper 67%, Burnham 26%, Corbyn 7%

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/ul79cmahd5/LabourLeadership_150721_day_one_W.pdf
    1. Cooper
    2. Corbyn
    3. Burnham

    You know who will be last.
    Interesting split. What's fun is with my preference...

    Kendall
    Cooper
    Burnham

    ... despite our differences we will quite possibly end up in the same column.
    @Labour preferences

    I'm voting Corbyn first preference and that's that.
  • Options
    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, a thank you to whoever suggested viewing the "Keys to the Castle" documentary about the couple leaving their Scottish castle after decades. Wonderful.

    Glad you enjoyed it - suspect it was from me. Is quoting oneself as bad as talking to oneself?

    Disraeli (I think) enjoyed the second recommendation. They're both worth a watch.


    A highly unusual MBE TV recommendation. "Keys to the Castle" was an award-winning BBC2 documentary from last year about an aging couple, relics of a bygone era, living in a Scottish castle in the highlands. They are finally facing up to the fact they are going to have to sell up and move out - to a retirement destination they charmingly call a "horizontal house". It's a bit poignant but the castle is gorgeous, proper property porn gold, and the couple are wonderful. The wife, who has essentially had to take charge in recent years, is just made for TV - all marbles thoroughly switched on, and as candid as she is eccentric. The pace of revelations is well-structured and I found the whole thing very moving. It's been repeated on BBC4 recently so has re-emerged on iplayer.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01nnztr

    Or, if you would rather spend 40 minutes geeking out, this is brilliant (now with independent confirmation from a 19th century Prime Minister of my objectivity on this point!). It's a US Navy guide to analogue fire control computers, back in the day before it was done electronically. There were mechanical computers installed in fighting ships as early as World War One, but this film dates from the 1950s when such mechanical systems had reached the peak of their complexity - the idea is that you don't aim your shells straight at the target, since you need to account for your ship's course, that of your opponent, the wind speed, and you also need to set your gun at the right angle for your shell to traverse the correct range.

    I particularly enjoyed the mechanical integrators and multipliers used in the final third of the film.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1i-dnAH9Y4

  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    sooooooooo.. How much spleen has been vented on a "private" poll.. I thought PB'ers would have learnt their lessons from the GE2015. DONT TRUST POLLS.

    On the other hand, I advised laying Burnham at 2.1 at the top of this thread. He's now 2.7.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,051
    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
  • Options
    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    I'll dump another (youtube) programming recommendation on you all: it's about a 19th-century harmonic analyser, which can compute Fourier analysis and synthesis. Mechanical ingenuity and some very pretty plots, if you're sinusoidally inclined. Thought JJ and Disraeli might be interested in particular but the explanation is so clear that I think even the less geeky could appreciate it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAsM30MAHLg
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    sooooooooo.. How much spleen has been vented on a "private" poll.. I thought PB'ers would have learnt their lessons from the GE2015. DONT TRUST POLLS.

    On the other hand, I advised laying Burnham at 2.1 at the top of this thread. He's now 2.7.
    Interesting point. You bet based on a poll that few can have any faith in because its a "private" poll yet it moves markets..

    Good call then, but I wouldn't have bet a sou on it, its as like to be right as wrong.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,023

    sooooooooo.. How much spleen has been vented on a "private" poll.. I thought PB'ers would have learnt their lessons from the GE2015. DONT TRUST POLLS.

    On the other hand, I advised laying Burnham at 2.1 at the top of this thread. He's now 2.7.
    The thread that got posted whilst I left an attempt to back Corbyn (@3.7 open price) whilst leaving work and going to the supermarket...
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,009
    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    There isn't a majority of voters for a Right-Wing Tory Party either - only 37% for, 63% against but they still got a majority of seats.

    The question is what is the support for Corbyn's views from Labour, Green, , SNP, LibDems and some UKIP supporters, and can this support be focused to turn it into a winning coalition?
    The Right won 51% of the vote. The Left won 40%. There is no mass of people who didn't turn out because Labour weren't Left-Win enough.
    You are assuming that all UKIP voters are right wing. But Labour suffered more from UKIP than the Tories did.

    You can be economically right wing (reduce taxes, favour the rich) and/or socially right wing (anti-foreigner, anti-political correctness)

    It seems to me that UKIP is socially right-wing but economically more left wing.

    Corbyn is ambivalent about the EU and might be on the NO side which would appeal to Kippers.

    He is against foreign wars (preferring negotiation) which should also appeal to Kippers. There is also quite a lot of policy overlap on economics.

    He doesn't seem to me to be of the nanny state politically correct Harman school of thought - except for fair treatment for women - which should appeal to 50% of the population at least.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MrStevenJones: Here's a list of current members of the Campaign Group of Labour MPs - or Shadow Cabinet, as they'll soon be called. http://t.co/xvYMgrirGl
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,012
    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
    These are violent, dangerous people, who should never set foot in this country. Treat them like any other rioting mob.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    tyson said:

    Jonathan said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. HYUFD, we should monitor that and see whether second preferences alter in light of Corbyn's status as frontrunner.

    The left are all putting Corbyn first, Kendall's supporters putting him last, Cooper supporters behind Burnham, Burnham supporters behind Cooper. Corbyn will certainly come top in the first round, he could yet lose on preferences
    As a LK supporter I will put JC second, AB third and YC last. The last two are awful, and even JC is a better prospect.
    Well there is always one isn't there! Yougov has Kendall's preferences breaking Cooper 67%, Burnham 26%, Corbyn 7%

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/ul79cmahd5/LabourLeadership_150721_day_one_W.pdf
    1. Cooper
    2. Corbyn
    3. Burnham

    You know who will be last.
    Interesting split. What's fun is with my preference...

    Kendall
    Cooper
    Burnham

    ... despite our differences we will quite possibly end up in the same column.
    @Labour preferences

    I'm voting Corbyn first preference and that's that.
    Blimey. Lots of Corbynites even here.


    Bizarre
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    If only one preference is stated which then denies other candidates the benefit of a preference on the second count then basically we have two voting systems within the same election. AV and FPTP? Or not?
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @tyson

    'For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way'

    What humanity, these are economic migrants trying to enter the UK illegally.
  • Options
    DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    edited July 2015


    Disraeli (I think) enjoyed the second recommendation.

    Yes I did. Excellent video for engineering fans. :smile:

    P.S. And I'd like to repeat what I said about your comments on the issues surrounding "Equality" late last night.
    It was a truly excellent summary!
    Those who have not read it should do so - IT DESERVES A BIGGER AUDIENCE!
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
    These migrants are in France. Not Uganda, not Nazi occupation but France.

    I wouldn't want to live in the socialist paradise being created by Labour's friend Hollande but is it really such a hellhole?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,012
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    There isn't a majority of voters for a Right-Wing Tory Party either - only 37% for, 63% against but they still got a majority of seats.

    The question is what is the support for Corbyn's views from Labour, Green, , SNP, LibDems and some UKIP supporters, and can this support be focused to turn it into a winning coalition?
    The Right won 51% of the vote. The Left won 40%. There is no mass of people who didn't turn out because Labour weren't Left-Win enough.
    Hmmm. Before the election UKIP were claiming to be not to be right wing.
    And were portrayed by their opponents as the The Third Reich Reborn.
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited July 2015
    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
    Super.... What's wrong with France or Italy for that matter? Why the Uk?

    If you let these in where does it stop? The masses that will then come will be a tsunami.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
    Another joke post.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I'll dump another (youtube) programming recommendation on you all: it's about a 19th-century harmonic analyser, which can compute Fourier analysis and synthesis. Mechanical ingenuity and some very pretty plots, if you're sinusoidally inclined. Thought JJ and Disraeli might be interested in particular but the explanation is so clear that I think even the less geeky could appreciate it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAsM30MAHLg

    A couple of other recommendations:

    Storyville on the BBC on the last month of South Vietnam. Amazing footage and interviews with many of the original participants 40 years on. Some true heroics amongst the panic and betrayals.

    And at the risk of causing apoplexy amongst the kippers "Ted Heath Night"* on BBC Parliament was full of fascinating political interviews. Ted Heath remains enigmatic, but it gave an understanding of his various actions, most of which took place in my childhood.

    * Interesting that the leftist BBC chose to mark 50 years of a Tory leader rather than the 70th Anniversary (on the same day) of Clem Attlee forming his government.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    stodge said:



    As for David Cameron's speech on corruption today, Mrs Stodge, who works in financial compliance, opined as to how many estate agents employ AML (Anti Money Laundering) teams or whether they are simply happy to take their commission as dodgy money.

    Estate agents not so much.

    The solicitors who actually receive the buyers funds: absolutely they do.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,009

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    There isn't a majority of voters for a Right-Wing Tory Party either - only 37% for, 63% against but they still got a majority of seats.

    The question is what is the support for Corbyn's views from Labour, Green, , SNP, LibDems and some UKIP supporters, and can this support be focused to turn it into a winning coalition?
    The Right won 51% of the vote. The Left won 40%. There is no mass of people who didn't turn out because Labour weren't Left-Win enough.
    Hmmm. Before the election UKIP were claiming to be not to be right wing.
    Cameron was also pretty much trying to place the Conservatives in the centre, as opposed to the Right of British politics.
    He was being quite successful until Corbyn moved the goal posts to the left and has shifted the centre of gravity. If Corbyn is successful, Cameron will be seen as reactionary right wing.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Barnesian said:

    You are assuming that all UKIP voters are right wing. But Labour suffered more from UKIP than the Tories did.

    You can be economically right wing (reduce taxes, favour the rich) and/or socially right wing (anti-foreigner, anti-political correctness)

    It seems to me that UKIP is socially right-wing but economically more left wing.

    Corbyn is ambivalent about the EU and might be on the NO side which would appeal to Kippers.

    He is against foreign wars (preferring negotiation) which should also appeal to Kippers. There is also quite a lot of policy overlap on economics.

    He doesn't seem to me to be of the nanny state politically correct Harman school of thought - except for fair treatment for women - which should appeal to 50% of the population at least.

    The Lib Dems also campaigned on the need for continuing austerity, though to a different measure than Tories. So that makes 60% voting for austerity while 40% voted for sticking their heads in the sand with deficit denial.

    60% means that for every two deficit deniers there were three voting for austerity - 50% more voters voted for pro-austerity parties than anti-austerity.Quite impressed by the British electorate.
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    edited July 2015

    philiph said:

    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This r
    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    WRONG on so many counts.
    People in this UK country are sick and tired of being lied to. From the right to the left, people are disillusioned with the present set up. They are sick and tired of being lied to, virtually on a machine made basis.

    GO today saying the UK economy is motoring on a 0.07 basis. My god, (if I had one) I would have sent the car to the scrap yard with that level of acceleration.
    Very good point, if you weren't out by a factor of ten. Try 0.7%
    And per quarter, not per annum.
    There isnt a government since the war that would not be happy with a quarterly growth of 0.7%. It was amusing listening to Radio 5, i caught two bulletins. One was from Labour Shadow Chancellor, you would have thought we had entered a recession, and the next bulletin had the doom mongering SNP on making similar points.

    Unemployment down : "Unemployment is still too high, and in the isle of skye it has gone up 2%"
    Youth unemployment down "there are too many young people unemployed, what they need is real training"
    GDP growth up (type A) "we are seeing major drop offs in demand for financial services and farming which shows something deeper wrong in the economy"
    GDP growth up (type B ) " we are seeing weak figures from manufacturing and new house building, which shows something deeper wrong in the economy".
    Inflation once again at 0.5% "these figures dont represent the real struggle that ordinary families are having to feed their families".

    Whatever the news, they pick out the negative, and use that to paint a broad picture.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913

    I'll dump another (youtube) programming recommendation on you all: it's about a 19th-century harmonic analyser, which can compute Fourier analysis and synthesis. Mechanical ingenuity and some very pretty plots, if you're sinusoidally inclined. Thought JJ and Disraeli might be interested in particular but the explanation is so clear that I think even the less geeky could appreciate it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAsM30MAHLg

    A couple of other recommendations:

    Storyville on the BBC on the last month of South Vietnam. Amazing footage and interviews with many of the original participants 40 years on. Some true heroics amongst the panic and betrayals.

    And at the risk of causing apoplexy amongst the kippers "Ted Heath Night"* on BBC Parliament was full of fascinating political interviews. Ted Heath remains enigmatic, but it gave an understanding of his various actions, most of which took place in my childhood.

    * Interesting that the leftist BBC chose to mark 50 years of a Tory leader rather than the 70th Anniversary (on the same day) of Clem Attlee forming his government.
    Ted Heath is arguably still the most significant PM since Attlee.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Why should they be rewarded for breaking the rules when other people are applying in the legitimate way?
    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
  • Options
    DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
    The Uganda Asians were 27,200 refugees. How many want to come from Calais - and how do you think our social services would cope (even if your man Corbyn was PM with a left-wing agenda)?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Barnesian said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    There isn't a majority of voters for a Right-Wing Tory Party either - only 37% for, 63% against but they still got a majority of seats.

    The question is what is the support for Corbyn's views from Labour, Green, , SNP, LibDems and some UKIP supporters, and can this support be focused to turn it into a winning coalition?
    The Right won 51% of the vote. The Left won 40%. There is no mass of people who didn't turn out because Labour weren't Left-Win enough.
    Hmmm. Before the election UKIP were claiming to be not to be right wing.
    Cameron was also pretty much trying to place the Conservatives in the centre, as opposed to the Right of British politics.
    He was being quite successful until Corbyn moved the goal posts to the left and has shifted the centre of gravity. If Corbyn is successful, Cameron will be seen as reactionary right wing.
    If Corbyn wins a general election yes, not a voodoo poll Unite Party election where you don't even have to be a Labour member to vote.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,164

    I'll dump another (youtube) programming recommendation on you all: it's about a 19th-century harmonic analyser, which can compute Fourier analysis and synthesis. Mechanical ingenuity and some very pretty plots, if you're sinusoidally inclined. Thought JJ and Disraeli might be interested in particular but the explanation is so clear that I think even the less geeky could appreciate it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAsM30MAHLg

    Thanks for that. The ingenuity of past generations to overcome their technical deficiencies were amazing. Now, if they could only get one to do an FFT ...
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Barnesian said:

    You are assuming that all UKIP voters are right wing. But Labour suffered more from UKIP than the Tories did.

    You can be economically right wing (reduce taxes, favour the rich) and/or socially right wing (anti-foreigner, anti-political correctness)

    It seems to me that UKIP is socially right-wing but economically more left wing.

    Corbyn is ambivalent about the EU and might be on the NO side which would appeal to Kippers.

    He is against foreign wars (preferring negotiation) which should also appeal to Kippers. There is also quite a lot of policy overlap on economics.

    He doesn't seem to me to be of the nanny state politically correct Harman school of thought - except for fair treatment for women - which should appeal to 50% of the population at least.

    The Lib Dems also campaigned on the need for continuing austerity, though to a different measure than Tories. So that makes 60% voting for austerity while 40% voted for sticking their heads in the sand with deficit denial.

    60% means that for every two deficit deniers there were three voting for austerity - 50% more voters voted for pro-austerity parties than anti-austerity.Quite impressed by the British electorate.
    That is equivalent to saying that, in 2005, the majority of the public were against controls on immigration, or that in 2001 the public said they didn't want to keep the pound, just because the Tories lost both times.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,009

    Barnesian said:

    You are assuming that all UKIP voters are right wing. But Labour suffered more from UKIP than the Tories did.

    You can be economically right wing (reduce taxes, favour the rich) and/or socially right wing (anti-foreigner, anti-political correctness)

    It seems to me that UKIP is socially right-wing but economically more left wing.

    Corbyn is ambivalent about the EU and might be on the NO side which would appeal to Kippers.

    He is against foreign wars (preferring negotiation) which should also appeal to Kippers. There is also quite a lot of policy overlap on economics.

    He doesn't seem to me to be of the nanny state politically correct Harman school of thought - except for fair treatment for women - which should appeal to 50% of the population at least.

    The Lib Dems also campaigned on the need for continuing austerity, though to a different measure than Tories. So that makes 60% voting for austerity while 40% voted for sticking their heads in the sand with deficit denial.

    60% means that for every two deficit deniers there were three voting for austerity - 50% more voters voted for pro-austerity parties than anti-austerity.Quite impressed by the British electorate.
    The Labour Party was also campaigning for austerity-lite. An extra year to balance the books - that's all. Only the SNP and Green were anti-austerity. So over 90% voted for austerity parties.

    In England voters didn't have much choice as they knew the Greens didn't have a chance. But in Scotland it was a different story.
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,819
    edited July 2015
    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    Unfortunately, given that his major economics speech was based around fantasy figures on government subsidies (depreciation is a government subsidy. Apparently. All government purchases are subsidies. Apparently. Someone with no economics background but a PhD in "social policy" wrote this and the Guardian printed it, so I can rely on it) and on tax incomes ignore the IFS estimates, some people have given me figures I far prefer, so I have decided that they are very clever and my stance is based upon them), it hardly fills one with confidence as to his economic credibility as the apostle of another way.
    And he had commitments based on those fantasy figures
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited July 2015
    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
    a) It will encourage more to make life risking journeys.
    b) They'd jump the legitimate system.
    c) They are in France. A civilised fellow EU country. If you are a genuine asylum seeker ( as opposed to an economic migrant), claim there.
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited July 2015
    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
    You pay for them then.

    Go on, turf your rent paying tenants out of your Fat Cat Buy to Let Houses, and put some of them up. You can afford it.

    Put up, or shut up. Unless you're simply another whining Lefty, happy to be generous with other peoples money.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Syria:

    For those who bought the 'Assad is winning' line for the last year or so, the man himself pretty much admitted his army is knackered in a speech a few days back. The guy is so dependent on Iranian largesse that many of his inner circle are hacked off.

    Two updates on the Turkish & Jordanian interventions that I mentioned back in late June were due to occur. The now obligatory pictures of Turkish airstrikes are being released on a daily basis but what is less seen is that Turkish agencies are discussing using Turkomen and Free Syrian Army Arab forces to support the proposed buffer zone.

    Quite a lot of Jordanian forces are approaching their border with Syria border at the moment. They are in excess of a show of strength so the best guess is that they intend to use it.

    A while back, I mentioned that IS didn't necessarily have great operational security in its little fiefdom stretching through Eastern Syria and Western Iraq because of its open recruitment and multi-national nature . A cursory look at the names of reasonable high ups that have been killed in Eastern Syria in recent months suggests they've been penetrated, either by technical measures, human intelligence..or both.

  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    WRONG on so many counts.
    People in this UK country are sick and tired of being lied to. From the right to the left, people are disillusioned with the present set up. They are sick and tired of being lied to, virtually on a machine made basis.

    GO today saying the UK economy is motoring on a 0.07 basis. My god, (if I had one) I would have sent the car to the scrap yard with that level of acceleration.
    SNP maths?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,012
    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    There isn't a majority of voters for a Right-Wing Tory Party either - only 37% for, 63% against but they still got a majority of seats.

    The question is what is the support for Corbyn's views from Labour, Green, , SNP, LibDems and some UKIP supporters, and can this support be focused to turn it into a winning coalition?
    The Right won 51% of the vote. The Left won 40%. There is no mass of people who didn't turn out because Labour weren't Left-Win enough.
    You are assuming that all UKIP voters are right wing. But Labour suffered more from UKIP than the Tories did.

    You can be economically right wing (reduce taxes, favour the rich) and/or socially right wing (anti-foreigner, anti-political correctness)

    It seems to me that UKIP is socially right-wing but economically more left wing.

    Corbyn is ambivalent about the EU and might be on the NO side which would appeal to Kippers.

    He is against foreign wars (preferring negotiation) which should also appeal to Kippers. There is also quite a lot of policy overlap on economics.

    He doesn't seem to me to be of the nanny state politically correct Harman school of thought - except for fair treatment for women - which should appeal to 50% of the population at least.
    UKIP is to the left of the Conservatives economically, but still to the right of Labour. UKIP is basically in the same position as parties like the Danish Peoples' Party, or Law and Justice in Poland. It's obviously a party of the right, albeit a different strand of the right to the Conservatives.
  • Options
    DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106

    I'll dump another (youtube) programming recommendation on you all: it's about a 19th-century harmonic analyser, which can compute Fourier analysis and synthesis. Mechanical ingenuity and some very pretty plots, if you're sinusoidally inclined. Thought JJ and Disraeli might be interested in particular but the explanation is so clear that I think even the less geeky could appreciate it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAsM30MAHLg

    Oh, Yes!
    Thank You! :smiley:
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @stephenkb: Rushanara Ali - who nominated Corbyn - comes out for @YvetteForLabour at her nomination meeting.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Danny565 said:

    Barnesian said:

    You are assuming that all UKIP voters are right wing. But Labour suffered more from UKIP than the Tories did.

    You can be economically right wing (reduce taxes, favour the rich) and/or socially right wing (anti-foreigner, anti-political correctness)

    It seems to me that UKIP is socially right-wing but economically more left wing.

    Corbyn is ambivalent about the EU and might be on the NO side which would appeal to Kippers.

    He is against foreign wars (preferring negotiation) which should also appeal to Kippers. There is also quite a lot of policy overlap on economics.

    He doesn't seem to me to be of the nanny state politically correct Harman school of thought - except for fair treatment for women - which should appeal to 50% of the population at least.

    The Lib Dems also campaigned on the need for continuing austerity, though to a different measure than Tories. So that makes 60% voting for austerity while 40% voted for sticking their heads in the sand with deficit denial.

    60% means that for every two deficit deniers there were three voting for austerity - 50% more voters voted for pro-austerity parties than anti-austerity.Quite impressed by the British electorate.
    That is equivalent to saying that, in 2005, the majority of the public were against controls on immigration, or that in 2001 the public said they didn't want to keep the pound, just because the Tories lost both times.
    Considering the economy was the number one issue every party campaigned on its more significant than the pet issues of certain parties in prior elections. All parties campaigned on their view of the economy more than anything else and the simple fact is that 50% more voted pro-austerity than anti-austerity.

    And in 2001 neither Labour nor the Lib-Dems nor anyone else campaigned on abolishing the pound. They had the policy of the potential of a referendum which could lead to Euro membership. Different beast.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    I'll dump another (youtube) programming recommendation on you all: it's about a 19th-century harmonic analyser, which can compute Fourier analysis and synthesis. Mechanical ingenuity and some very pretty plots, if you're sinusoidally inclined. Thought JJ and Disraeli might be interested in particular but the explanation is so clear that I think even the less geeky could appreciate it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAsM30MAHLg

    A couple of other recommendations:

    Storyville on the BBC on the last month of South Vietnam. Amazing footage and interviews with many of the original participants 40 years on. Some true heroics amongst the panic and betrayals.

    And at the risk of causing apoplexy amongst the kippers "Ted Heath Night"* on BBC Parliament was full of fascinating political interviews. Ted Heath remains enigmatic, but it gave an understanding of his various actions, most of which took place in my childhood.

    * Interesting that the leftist BBC chose to mark 50 years of a Tory leader rather than the 70th Anniversary (on the same day) of Clem Attlee forming his government.
    Ted Heath is arguably still the most significant PM since Attlee.
    His battle to drag the Tories into the modern age was quite fascinating. He really was a rather grumpy git, but had a real talent for leadership. Hard to see such a leader lasting 4 elections and a whole decade in the modern age.

    While there was much on the European issue (his 1972 interview was quite explicit in how he saw the future of the organisation as much more than a trading bloc) the issues over marketisation of the British economy, Northern Ireland and the Trade Unions were equally interesting. I don't know how much is on iplayer. Storyville on Vietnam is still up for another couple of weeks.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154
    If Corbyn just crawls over the winning line, there is going to be an almighty outpouring of rage within Labour that the Tories and other mischief-makers were allowed to put him there.

    Heh.....
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,164
    notme said:

    philiph said:

    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This r
    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    WRONG on so many counts.
    People in this UK country are sick and tired of being lied to. From the right to the left, people are disillusioned with the present set up. They are sick and tired of being lied to, virtually on a machine made basis.

    GO today saying the UK economy is motoring on a 0.07 basis. My god, (if I had one) I would have sent the car to the scrap yard with that level of acceleration.
    Very good point, if you weren't out by a factor of ten. Try 0.7%
    And per quarter, not per annum.
    There isnt a government since the war that would not be happy with a quarterly growth of 0.7%. It was amusing listening to Radio 5, i caught two bulletins. One was from Labour Shadow Chancellor, you would have thought we had entered a recession, and the next bulletin had the doom mongering SNP on making similar points.

    Unemployment down : "Unemployment is still too high, and in the isle of skye it has gone up 2%"
    Youth unemployment down "there are too many young people unemployed, what they need is real training"
    GDP growth up (type A) "we are seeing major drop offs in demand for financial services and farming which shows something deeper wrong in the economy"
    GDP growth up (type B ) " we are seeing weak figures from manufacturing and new house building, which shows something deeper wrong in the economy".
    Inflation once again at 0.5% "these figures dont represent the real struggle that ordinary families are having to feed their families".

    Whatever the news, they pick out the negative, and use that to paint a broad picture.
    I listened to R5L all day whilst I was painting, and it was all rather negative stuff re. the economy. Come on BBC, Rejoice! Rejoice! Rejoice!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    I'll dump another (youtube) programming recommendation on you all: it's about a 19th-century harmonic analyser, which can compute Fourier analysis and synthesis. Mechanical ingenuity and some very pretty plots, if you're sinusoidally inclined. Thought JJ and Disraeli might be interested in particular but the explanation is so clear that I think even the less geeky could appreciate it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAsM30MAHLg

    A couple of other recommendations:

    Storyville on the BBC on the last month of South Vietnam. Amazing footage and interviews with many of the original participants 40 years on. Some true heroics amongst the panic and betrayals.

    And at the risk of causing apoplexy amongst the kippers "Ted Heath Night"* on BBC Parliament was full of fascinating political interviews. Ted Heath remains enigmatic, but it gave an understanding of his various actions, most of which took place in my childhood.

    * Interesting that the leftist BBC chose to mark 50 years of a Tory leader rather than the 70th Anniversary (on the same day) of Clem Attlee forming his government.
    Ted Heath is arguably still the most significant PM since Attlee.
    His battle to drag the Tories into the modern age was quite fascinating. He really was a rather grumpy git, but had a real talent for leadership. Hard to see such a leader lasting 4 elections and a whole decade in the modern age.

    While there was much on the European issue (his 1972 interview was quite explicit in how he saw the future of the organisation as much more than a trading bloc) the issues over marketisation of the British economy, Northern Ireland and the Trade Unions were equally interesting. I don't know how much is on iplayer. Storyville on Vietnam is still up for another couple of weeks.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    SNP maths?

    Get your FREE Swinney Oil price calculator in tomorrow's Nat onal

    No matter what number you put in, it always come out over 100 !
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    I feel like I'm missing out by not buying a vote in the Labour Party leadership election.

    Anyone feel like this?
  • Options
    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Y0kel said:

    Syria:

    For those who bought the 'Assad is winning' line for the last year or so, the man himself pretty much admitted his army is knackered in a speech a few days back. The guy is so dependent on Iranian largesse that many of his inner circle are hacked off.

    Two updates on the Turkish & Jordanian interventions that I mentioned back in late June were due to occur. The now obligatory pictures of Turkish airstrikes are being released on a daily basis but what is less seen is that Turkish agencies are discussing using Turkomen and Free Syrian Army Arab forces to support the proposed buffer zone.

    Quite a lot of Jordanian forces are approaching their border with Syria border at the moment. They are in excess of a show of strength so the best guess is that they intend to use it.

    A while back, I mentioned that IS didn't necessarily have great operational security in its little fiefdom stretching through Eastern Syria and Western Iraq because of its open recruitment and multi-national nature . A cursory look at the names of reasonable high ups that have been killed in Eastern Syria in recent months suggests they've been penetrated, either by technical measures, human intelligence..or both.


    It is only when you see a mosquito landing on your testicles that you realize that there is always a way to solve problems without using violence.

    Lao-Tsu, 6th Century Chinese Philosopher


    Good night
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,207


    'You are assuming that all UKIP voters are right wing. But Labour suffered more from UKIP than the Tories did.

    You can be economically right wing (reduce taxes, favour the rich) and/or socially right wing (anti-foreigner, anti-political correctness)

    It seems to me that UKIP is socially right-wing but economically more left wing.

    Corbyn is ambivalent about the EU and might be on the NO side which would appeal to Kippers.

    He is against foreign wars (preferring negotiation) which should also appeal to Kippers. There is also quite a lot of policy overlap on economics.

    He doesn't seem to me to be of the nanny state politically correct Harman school of thought - except for fair treatment for women - which should appeal to 50% of the population at least.

    UKIP is to the left of the Conservatives economically, but still to the right of Labour. UKIP is basically in the same position as parties like the Danish Peoples' Party, or Law and Justice in Poland. It's obviously a party of the right, albeit a different strand of the right to the Conservatives.'

    Depends on what issues, UKIP policy at the election was to cut the top tax rate to 40% now, create a more contributory welfare system and slash overseas aid
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,012
    I can only conclude there must be something in the water, for people to conclude that Corbyn will shift British politics leftward.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,062
    welshowl said:

    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
    a) It will encourage more to make life risking journeys.
    b) They'd jump the legitimate system.
    c) They are in France. A civilised fellow EU country. If you are a genuine asylum seeker ( as opposed to an economic migrant), claim there.
    I have heard (more than once) that its actually incredibly and intentionally difficult to claim asylum in France.... Personally I would be checking exactly what hoops the French make asylum seekers jump through and working out what can be done to make those hoops easier to navigate....

    Firstly it really wouldn't cost much and secondly it would really annoy the french. It would also allow us to announce that anyone who crosses from France and then claims asylum has definitely not followed EU rules and so would be sent back to their original starting point (or if unknown the country from which they entered the EU)...
  • Options
    FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    Jonathan said:

    I'll dump another (youtube) programming recommendation on you all: it's about a 19th-century harmonic analyser, which can compute Fourier analysis and synthesis. Mechanical ingenuity and some very pretty plots, if you're sinusoidally inclined. Thought JJ and Disraeli might be interested in particular but the explanation is so clear that I think even the less geeky could appreciate it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAsM30MAHLg

    A couple of other recommendations:

    Storyville on the BBC on the last month of South Vietnam. Amazing footage and interviews with many of the original participants 40 years on. Some true heroics amongst the panic and betrayals.

    And at the risk of causing apoplexy amongst the kippers "Ted Heath Night"* on BBC Parliament was full of fascinating political interviews. Ted Heath remains enigmatic, but it gave an understanding of his various actions, most of which took place in my childhood.

    * Interesting that the leftist BBC chose to mark 50 years of a Tory leader rather than the 70th Anniversary (on the same day) of Clem Attlee forming his government.
    Ted Heath is arguably still the most significant PM since Attlee.
    His battle to drag the Tories into the modern age was quite fascinating. He really was a rather grumpy git, but had a real talent for leadership. Hard to see such a leader lasting 4 elections and a whole decade in the modern age.

    While there was much on the European issue (his 1972 interview was quite explicit in how he saw the future of the organisation as much more than a trading bloc) the issues over marketisation of the British economy, Northern Ireland and the Trade Unions were equally interesting. I don't know how much is on iplayer. Storyville on Vietnam is still up for another couple of weeks.
    Modern age? Well he succeeded more than Grimmond and Thorp I suppose. But ir was Benn who went round opening nuclear power stations.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,207

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    The decision of those Labour MPs to nominate Corbyn just to spice up the contest must go down as one of the biggest mistakes in British political history. Margaret Beckett was one I think.

    No, the result in Scotland showed the voice of the traditional left had to be heard too, not just the Brownites and the Blairites and the leftovers from Miliband's Shadow Cabinet, all wings of the party now have a candidate in the race
    Why? Jezwecan could not get the nominations in PLP. Those were the rules. And then some sentimental idiots decided to clusterf**** the whole process.
    As has been pointed out earlier some of Burnham's backers may now have nominated Corbyn, but the nature of its defeat means Labour needs a proper debate, no wing should be able to say its view has not been voiced
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Burnham is on Newsnight now.

    I still think he's a reasonably likeable and charismatic politician. The problem is that even the most charismatic person in the world still needs to actually be saying/standing for something to create any interest.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    I can only conclude there must be something in the water, for people to conclude that Corbyn will shift British politics leftward.

    The ban on legal highs is coming in just too late for Labour.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,207
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    The decision of those Labour MPs to nominate Corbyn just to spice up the contest must go down as one of the biggest mistakes in British political history. Margaret Beckett was one I think.

    No, the result in Scotland showed the voice of the traditional left had to be heard too, not just the Brownites and the Blairites and the leftovers from Miliband's Shadow Cabinet, all wings of the party now have a candidate in the race
    They seem to have agreed that voice needed to be heard, but in that case they should change the rules so that not as much PLP support is needed, as surely the point of such a high nomination limit is to ensure whoever wins has significant PLP support. If that's not as important as a broad debate, fine, but it wasn't the system they agreed upon.

    And not everyone got the candidates in the race they wanted, Creagh didn't get loaned nominations, her supporters don't get to vote for their first preference (however few of them there are).
    Creagh offered nothing different from Kendall as far as I can see
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,051
    @pbCOM Tories

    I just posted a compassionate piece that we should help the Calais migrants rather than demonise them.

    I really would not want to be near any of your heads- your vitriol for human beings, your lack of compassion. I don't know if you are narrow minded, or bigoted, or just plain nasty and downright hateful. Whatever, you just make me feel just sad and disillusioned and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

    In the future there has to be more hope than there is now.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    What's happening with Labour is a sobering study in self-delusion. Hundreds of thousands of Labour supporters honestly believe that shifting leftwards will give them an enhanced opportunity of winning a general election. Everyone else knows they're wrong, but they're not interested in listening to them.
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Y0kel said:

    I feel like I'm missing out by not buying a vote in the Labour Party leadership election.

    Anyone feel like this?

    Why waste £3? Job's already being done by the nitwits.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,051


    @Labour preferences

    I'm voting Corbyn first preference and that's that.


    Blimey. Lots of Corbynites even here.


    Bizarre


    @Jonothan

    Not quite as bizarre Jonathan as your support for Liz Kendell whose obvious lack of any kind of leadership quality makes even Ed Miliband appear credible- something I would not have thought possible.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,021
    tyson said:

    @pbCOM Tories

    I just posted a compassionate piece that we should help the Calais migrants rather than demonise them.

    I really would not want to be near any of your heads- your vitriol for human beings, your lack of compassion. I don't know if you are narrow minded, or bigoted, or just plain nasty and downright hateful. Whatever, you just make me feel just sad and disillusioned and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

    In the future there has to be more hope than there is now.

    Is there any reason they can't just stay in France?
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited July 2015
    welshowl said:

    tyson said:

    Moses_ said:

    ITV news
    Euro tunnel - police completely overwhelmed by number of migrants. Warnings that unless this addressed this will seriously affect British trade and the economy.

    UK government - this is a French issue to solve.

    Latest reports few minutes ago indicate a major number of migrants breaking cover and moving towards tunnel tonight

    For humanity's sake, let the Calais migrants come in. It is tortuous watching these poor souls strive for a better life in this way.

    The reaction from the UK is nothing short of despicable. Reminds me of how we treated Jewish emigrants in WW2. What happened to the compassionate Conservatism of the 70's when we opened our door to Uganda?
    a) It will encourage more to make life risking journeys.
    b) They'd jump the legitimate system.
    c) They are in France. A civilised fellow EU country. If you are a genuine asylum seeker ( as opposed to an economic migrant), claim there.
    Many of these people have travelled from Italy, another safe nation, not currently at war.

    Why are they not invited to settle there en masse, in a 'hideously white' country which would no doubt benefit from an injection of multiculturalism and ethnicity?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2015
    @tyson

    I think that the problem is not lack of leadership; it is that the troops are unwilling to be led. Corbyn will face the same problem. Burnham and Cooper less so, but only because they are not planning to lead the troops anywhere.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,164
    tyson said:

    @pbCOM Tories

    I just posted a compassionate piece that we should help the Calais migrants rather than demonise them.

    I really would not want to be near any of your heads- your vitriol for human beings, your lack of compassion. I don't know if you are narrow minded, or bigoted, or just plain nasty and downright hateful. Whatever, you just make me feel just sad and disillusioned and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

    In the future there has to be more hope than there is now.

    There are several rather large and fundamental flaws in your thinking, if indeed you have put any thought into your position.

    Firstly, what is your aim? What problem are you trying to solve?
    Secondly, is your proposed solution the best way to solve the problem?
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    tyson said:

    @pbCOM Tories

    I just posted a compassionate piece that we should help the Calais migrants rather than demonise them.

    I really would not want to be near any of your heads- your vitriol for human beings, your lack of compassion. I don't know if you are narrow minded, or bigoted, or just plain nasty and downright hateful. Whatever, you just make me feel just sad and disillusioned and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

    In the future there has to be more hope than there is now.

    This from a poster who thought they were to many white people in Norwich.

    Another so called lefty who hasn't a clue on immigration.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2015
    France has a socialist government at the moment. Why don't the immigrants in Calais want to stay in France and enjoy the benefits of socialism? Why are they desperate to enter a country run by the evil Tories?
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited July 2015
    tyson said:

    @pbCOM Tories

    I just posted a compassionate piece that we should help the Calais migrants rather than demonise them.

    I really would not want to be near any of your heads- your vitriol for human beings, your lack of compassion. I don't know if you are narrow minded, or bigoted, or just plain nasty and downright hateful. Whatever, you just make me feel just sad and disillusioned and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

    In the future there has to be more hope than there is now.

    I pointed out two genuine problems and offered a solution. It's not like I suggested setting up machine guns at our end of the tunnel.

    Seriously, compassion has to be practical otherwise it's just virtue signalling hand wringing. Encourage people to risk all falsely and innocents die, That's not what anyone wants.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,164
    Y0kel said:

    I feel like I'm missing out by not buying a vote in the Labour Party leadership election.

    Anyone feel like this?

    Me. I can't be bothered, although if I did it would be ABSB - anyone but scum Burnham. ;)

    Corbyn is apparently a railway enthusiast, which should be enough reason for anyone to vote for him!
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,909
    AndyJS said:

    France has a socialist government at the moment. Why don't the immigrants in Calais want to stay in France and enjoy the benefits of socialism? Why are they desperate to enter a country run by the evil Tories?

    They want to vote for Jezza!!
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    FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    WRONG on so many counts.
    People in this UK country are sick and tired of being lied to. From the right to the left, people are disillusioned with the present set up. They are sick and tired of being lied to, virtually on a machine made basis.

    GO today saying the UK economy is motoring on a 0.07 basis. My god, (if I had one) I would have sent the car to the scrap yard with that level of acceleration.
    Leaving aside your poor grasp of the decimal point, in fact annual growth of 2.8% is very good. Its a bit above trend and hardly a runaway boom.
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    tyson said:

    @pbCOM Tories

    I just posted a compassionate piece that we should help the Calais migrants rather than demonise them.

    I really would not want to be near any of your heads- your vitriol for human beings, your lack of compassion. I don't know if you are narrow minded, or bigoted, or just plain nasty and downright hateful. Whatever, you just make me feel just sad and disillusioned and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

    In the future there has to be more hope than there is now.
    </blockquot

    Seriously. Do something yourself to help them, don't talk about the state, you do it. Gather friends, raise money, go over and provide facilities to help feed and board them whilst thier status is sorted.

    Practical things that you can do, today.

    The pen may be mightier than the sword but it feeds and clothes f**k all.

    Let me know what the plans are. Happy to donate a few quid.

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    OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    houndtang said:

    Who could have imagined a couple of months ago that Jeremy Corbyn of all people would be the runaway frontrunner for the post of Leader of the Opposition? Seriously, apart from maybe Dennis Skinner it's hard to think of a less likely Labour leader. Corbyn used to be my Mp many moons ago and for him to suddenly emerge from relative obscurity like this is surely one of the biggest upsets in British political history - whether he wins or not.

    This reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    The Emperor (Osborne) is wearing new clothes that he has recently spun (austerity, long term economic plan, new settlement).

    Everyone in the crowd, including the Labour Party, say how nice the clothes are, and that they would like to wear something similar (but slightly improved).

    It takes a small boy (Corbyn) in the crowd so say loudly -but he's not wearing any clothes! .At that point, many people say - actually the boy is right. He's not wearing any clothes.

    It just needed someone to say it loudly enough for people to hear.

    The bubble is pricked. This could be a game changer. The other three would not have changed the game.
    I don't think there is a majority for a Left-Wing Labour Party among the British electorate.
    WRONG on so many counts.
    People in this UK country are sick and tired of being lied to. From the right to the left, people are disillusioned with the present set up. They are sick and tired of being lied to, virtually on a machine made basis.

    GO today saying the UK economy is motoring on a 0.07 basis. My god, (if I had one) I would have sent the car to the scrap yard with that level of acceleration.
    SNP maths?
    Crivens ma'boab! Hae ye ne'er heard the God's honest truth frae the lips o' the annoited? Not surprised, neither has anyone else.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited July 2015

    tyson said:

    @pbCOM Tories

    I just posted a compassionate piece that we should help the Calais migrants rather than demonise them.

    I really would not want to be near any of your heads- your vitriol for human beings, your lack of compassion. I don't know if you are narrow minded, or bigoted, or just plain nasty and downright hateful. Whatever, you just make me feel just sad and disillusioned and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

    In the future there has to be more hope than there is now.

    This from a poster who thought they were to many white people in Norwich.

    Another so called lefty who hasn't a clue on immigration.
    @tyson - what is wrong with being white???
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    I'll dump another (youtube) programming recommendation on you all: it's about a 19th-century harmonic analyser, which can compute Fourier analysis and synthesis. Mechanical ingenuity and some very pretty plots, if you're sinusoidally inclined. Thought JJ and Disraeli might be interested in particular but the explanation is so clear that I think even the less geeky could appreciate it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAsM30MAHLg

    A couple of other recommendations:

    Storyville on the BBC on the last month of South Vietnam. Amazing footage and interviews with many of the original participants 40 years on. Some true heroics amongst the panic and betrayals.

    And at the risk of causing apoplexy amongst the kippers "Ted Heath Night"* on BBC Parliament was full of fascinating political interviews. Ted Heath remains enigmatic, but it gave an understanding of his various actions, most of which took place in my childhood.

    * Interesting that the leftist BBC chose to mark 50 years of a Tory leader rather than the 70th Anniversary (on the same day) of Clem Attlee forming his government.
    That Storyville is excellent. Top notch interviews and the archive footage is astonishing. The coverage of the aftermath feels a bit tacked on at the end, though frankly it deserves a documentary in its own right.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b062mbng/storyville-20142015-25-last-days-in-vietnam

    Also thanks to @Disraeli. I enjoyed last night's discussion about equality. Very civil and non-partisan all round.

    And @JosiasJessop - I thought the Fast Fourier Transform was a relatively modern invention, and I knew Tukey had a role in it, post WW2. But then ... href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform">a look on wiki showed Gauss had essentially grasped the idea right at the start of the 19th century. Before Fourier had even worked out the original "Fourier Transform". I know enough about Gauss that I ought not be surprised, but I was. I also didn't know that the modern implementation of FFT was invented because Tukey wanted to do Cold War signal processing to detect Soviet nuclear tests using sensors around the USSR.

    Night all.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    AndyJS said:

    What's happening with Labour is a sobering study in self-delusion. Hundreds of thousands of Labour supporters honestly believe that shifting leftwards will give them an enhanced opportunity of winning a general election. Everyone else knows they're wrong, but they're not interested in listening to them.

    I don't actually think they do, in fact I think the last thing many Corbyn supporters are thinking of is Labour's GE chances.
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    tyson said:

    @pbCOM Tories

    I just posted a compassionate piece that we should help the Calais migrants rather than demonise them.

    I really would not want to be near any of your heads- your vitriol for human beings, your lack of compassion. I don't know if you are narrow minded, or bigoted, or just plain nasty and downright hateful. Whatever, you just make me feel just sad and disillusioned and you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

    In the future there has to be more hope than there is now.


    No you did not you said let people in that had entered and then passed illegally through many safe countries before ending up at Calais. They then cause mayhem at an international crossing. Why do they want to come here? What's the matter with your neck of the woods in Italy? France even where they now are. What's so appealing about the UK they shack up for months on end and then have to cross water in fridge lorries???

    Your compassion actually encourages these acts in effect making the situation worse. . Don't you understand that if you let even a small number enter the army of migrants that follow in quick order would be so overwhelming as to result in a complete breakdown of all services , security and the well being of legitimate inhabitants.

    So long as It is making you feel good then hey what the hell? You don't have to address the appalling consequences .

    I am not. PB tory by the way but the fact you address your post to them tells me all I need to know about your motives

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