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  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    felix said:

    felix said:

    And Guido works for the Sun which is owned by News International which owns Sky and Fox so by his own logic, Guido is not a disinterested source so should disqualify himself and STFU.

    Edit: removed previous quotes which were broken.
    What price free speech then if you question the BBC?
    Eh? The BBC's critics complain the pro-BBC luvvies have a vested interest. My point is those very same critics also have a vested interest in the BBC's rivals.What's sauce for the goose, or not.
    The difference is that those rivals do not get free money from taxpayers to write letters asking for more free money from taxpayers. Those who have to earn their living in the free market have every right to complain.
    Either both sides are tainted by money, or none is.
    Either you're obtuse or dense but there is a huge difference with regard to the source of the money. I suspect it's both.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    Presume this poll is pretty voodoo-ey, but still.

    https://twitter.com/robostarred/status/621602393181016065

    I'd like to say London doesn't deserve Galloway, but..

    How on Earth does Galloway get 21%? I hate to think the Islamist vote is that large in London.
    It isn't but that person is voting multiple times...........

    Yep - it's a classic voodoo poll, and its easy to vote multiple times if you don't store cookies. I love the recollection of the Daily Express one where they asked readers whether they thought British residents or visiting gypsies should get priority for health care: someone organised a serious voodoo operation and 95% voted to give priority to gypsies :-).

    Sort of on topic, I think the Corbyn price is now too short. He's doing well, but not that well.
    She's talking about the corrupt Muslim voting patterns I think nick



    The corrupt Tower Hamlets voting patterns, to be precise.

    And it was (slightly) tongue in cheek.

    Still the gypsy story is quite funny. Didn't the same happen with Brunel when he came 2nd in the BBC's Greatest Briton series? Lots of engineers and others told all their mates and got him a very big vote so that he got pretty close to Churchill.

    Brunel is very deservedly the 2nd greatest Briton.
    He had to make a U-turn on (7 ft) Broad Gauge however.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited July 2015
    MarkHopkins,

    You're the fourth person on here who has switched from In to Out in the last week. I think you've swung further than I have. I would vote in if we could get a double QMV system and it enshrined in treaty change. I think Cameron probably won't get that, but he has outperformed my expectations before. Even people like TheScreamingEagles who were very strongly In are now considering things.

    This is all very, very dangerous for the Conservatives. By the time of the referendum, it could be only the most loyalist Conservative supporters that will go with Cameron's recommendation. If the top brass all campaign for In - especially if they do so through misleading or deceptive arguments - they could lose vast amounts of trust with their base whatever the result. Right now a lot of people are put off UKIP by Farage, but I suspect he will resign after the refendum, in victory or defeat. It could be a Scottish Labour situation, and once people make the emotional break it is hard for them to go back.

    I could also see the most effective Out Conservative winning the next leadership election, whether it is Hammond, Boris, Patel or Kwarteng.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited July 2015
    isam said:

    Plato said:

    The Kipper Effect and why I'd probably qualify any statement with I Don't Vote Kipper.

    BOOers need a different frontman to Farage et al.

    JEO said:

    Plato,

    This bridging loan could cause #Brexit. It has absolutely confirmed three major eurosceptic arguments:

    1) The EU is completely willing to tear up previous agreements it has made with Britain just a few years later if they're not enshrined in treaties.
    2) The Eurozone is willing to spend EU-wide money on Eurozone bailouts
    3) The Eurozone has started agreeing a single position before EU votes, so it can ram things through as a bloc and non-Euro members are completely sidelined. With just one more Eurozone member, the non-Euro countries won't be able to stop any measure they come up with.


    This is true. And has pretty much pushed me to the OUT even though I was marginally IN before and wanted a decent renegotiation. Nothing the EU promises can be believed, so no renegotiation is valid, and OUT is the vote.

    Based on some of the comments here, I am not the only one moving in this direction.

    I wonder how many "shy BOOers" there are going to be come referendum day?

    Portillo
    Kate Hoey. Whoever it is, the Out campaign needs to get itself sorted. They should have had a representative to go on all the TV channels over this deal, but they are ceding the argument to UKIP, and most people tune out to them.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161
    isam said:

    Plato said:

    The Kipper Effect and why I'd probably qualify any statement with I Don't Vote Kipper.

    BOOers need a different frontman to Farage et al.

    JEO said:

    Plato,

    This bridging loan could cause #Brexit. It has absolutely confirmed three major eurosceptic arguments:

    1) The EU is completely willing to tear up previous agreements it has made with Britain just a few years later if they're not enshrined in treaties.
    2) The Eurozone is willing to spend EU-wide money on Eurozone bailouts
    3) The Eurozone has started agreeing a single position before EU votes, so it can ram things through as a bloc and non-Euro members are completely sidelined. With just one more Eurozone member, the non-Euro countries won't be able to stop any measure they come up with.


    This is true. And has pretty much pushed me to the OUT even though I was marginally IN before and wanted a decent renegotiation. Nothing the EU promises can be believed, so no renegotiation is valid, and OUT is the vote.

    Based on some of the comments here, I am not the only one moving in this direction.

    I wonder how many "shy BOOers" there are going to be come referendum day?

    Portillo
    Did Peterborough to Leicester for the first time on Monday. Saw Burleigh House near Stamford, and the start of the Old Dalby test track near Melton Mowbray. Also passed through Rutland and its "capital" Oakham.

    Also saw "Sir Bobby Robson" twice, at King's Cross, and at Peterborough!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Loco_91109_at_King's_Cross_01.JPG
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Loco_91109_at_Peterborough.JPG

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    taffys said:

    Such mixed feelings about the BBC. Infuriating but also wonderful. A very big part of our cultural heritage.

    Why? What's wonderful about the current BBC output?

    Why should we be forced on pain of jail to pay for a broadcasting museum?
    There are many reasons to be proud of the BBC. I'm currently listening to TMS. Radio 4, the world service, the natural history section, Open University programming, the news service (even if you think it is overly liberal), excellent drama (on the whole - yes there are some shockers) , same can be said of the comedy output.

    Oh, and for me - Dr Who.

    Much of the above is only possible due to unique way it is funded.

    But even I can't defend the threat of jail if you don't pay.

    SO is right though, woe betide any government that makes stuff harder/more expensive.

    **The current licence fee is, in my opinion, excellent value.
    If you think it's excellent value, good for you. You should be free to make that choice. But we're not. We're forced to pay for it whether we want to or not.

    I rarely watch the BBC. The news is no better than ITN. It's GE output was awful. Sport coverage is nothing special.

    The drama I find poor, or just running legacy brands. Dr Who dates from the 1960s. Poldark from the 1970s, and they can't be arsed to make more than 3 episodes of Sherlock at a time.

    But, hey? David Attenborough is good. So I guess that's something.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    taffys said:

    Such mixed feelings about the BBC. Infuriating but also wonderful. A very big part of our cultural heritage.

    Why? What's wonderful about the current BBC output?

    Why should we be forced on pain of jail to pay for a broadcasting museum?
    There are many reasons to be proud of the BBC. I'm currently listening to TMS. Radio 4, the world service, the natural history section, Open University programming, the news service (even if you think it is overly liberal), excellent drama (on the whole - yes there are some shockers) , same can be said of the comedy output.

    Oh, and for me - Dr Who.

    Much of the above is only possible due to unique way it is funded.

    But even I can't defend the threat of jail if you don't pay.

    SO is right though, woe betide any government that makes stuff harder/more expensive.

    **The current licence fee is, in my opinion, excellent value.
    Why couldn't TMS be provided commercially on a station like TalkSport with adverts between the overs like on Sky Sports? I don't think a poll tax is necessary to provide that.

    Radio 4 - never listened to that, don't listen to BBC radio. You like it, great - why don't you pay for it. I listen to commercial radio when I'm in the car but still have nearly a quarter of my telly tax go on the radio. Its absurd. If it was up to me not a single penny of TV Poll Tax would go on radio services.

    Dr Who - sold and shown commercially across the globe but can't be funded commercially in the UK? Come off it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161
    I am most sympathetic to BOO, and have been for a while. I even voted UKIP at the Euros in May 2014 - but felt conflicted enough about Nige to vote Tory in the Locals on the same day :)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    taffys said:

    Such mixed feelings about the BBC. Infuriating but also wonderful. A very big part of our cultural heritage.

    Why? What's wonderful about the current BBC output?

    Why should we be forced on pain of jail to pay for a broadcasting museum?
    There are many reasons to be proud of the BBC. I'm currently listening to TMS. Radio 4, the world service, the natural history section, Open University programming, the news service (even if you think it is overly liberal), excellent drama (on the whole - yes there are some shockers) , same can be said of the comedy output.

    Oh, and for me - Dr Who.

    Much of the above is only possible due to unique way it is funded.

    But even I can't defend the threat of jail if you don't pay.

    SO is right though, woe betide any government that makes stuff harder/more expensive.

    **The current licence fee is, in my opinion, excellent value.
    If you think it's excellent value, good for you. You should be free to make that choice. But we're not. We're forced to pay for it whether we want to or not.

    I rarely watch the BBC. The news is no better than ITN. It's GE output was awful. Sport coverage is nothing special.

    The drama I find poor, or just running legacy brands. Dr Who dates from the 1960s. Poldark from the 1970s, and they can't be arsed to make more than 3 episodes of Sherlock at a time.

    But, hey? David Attenborough is good. So I guess that's something.
    Even David Attenborough's shows are being funded by Sky more and more often now.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    Presume this poll is pretty voodoo-ey, but still.

    https://twitter.com/robostarred/status/621602393181016065

    I'd like to say London doesn't deserve Galloway, but..

    How on Earth does Galloway get 21%? I hate to think the Islamist vote is that large in London.
    It isn't but that person is voting multiple times...........

    Yep - it's a classic voodoo poll, and its easy to vote multiple times if you don't store cookies. I love the recollection of the Daily Express one where they asked readers whether they thought British residents or visiting gypsies should get priority for health care: someone organised a serious voodoo operation and 95% voted to give priority to gypsies :-).

    Sort of on topic, I think the Corbyn price is now too short. He's doing well, but not that well.
    She's talking about the corrupt Muslim voting patterns I think nick



    The corrupt Tower Hamlets voting patterns, to be precise.

    And it was (slightly) tongue in cheek.

    Still the gypsy story is quite funny. Didn't the same happen with Brunel when he came 2nd in the BBC's Greatest Briton series? Lots of engineers and others told all their mates and got him a very big vote so that he got pretty close to Churchill.

    Brunel is very deservedly the 2nd greatest Briton.
    He had to make a U-turn on (7 ft) Broad Gauge however.
    Isambard was right on that too. Our railways would have been in a much better state had we gone for it.

    Besides which.. Any great man, or woman, tries many things and has a few spectacular failures. Atmospheric railways were another.

    It's that energy, inspiration, leadership and creativeness that makes them great.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161

    taffys said:

    Such mixed feelings about the BBC. Infuriating but also wonderful. A very big part of our cultural heritage.

    Why? What's wonderful about the current BBC output?

    Why should we be forced on pain of jail to pay for a broadcasting museum?
    There are many reasons to be proud of the BBC. I'm currently listening to TMS. Radio 4, the world service, the natural history section, Open University programming, the news service (even if you think it is overly liberal), excellent drama (on the whole - yes there are some shockers) , same can be said of the comedy output.

    Oh, and for me - Dr Who.

    Much of the above is only possible due to unique way it is funded.

    But even I can't defend the threat of jail if you don't pay.

    SO is right though, woe betide any government that makes stuff harder/more expensive.

    **The current licence fee is, in my opinion, excellent value.
    If you think it's excellent value, good for you. You should be free to make that choice. But we're not. We're forced to pay for it whether we want to or not.

    I rarely watch the BBC. The news is no better than ITN. It's GE output was awful. Sport coverage is nothing special.

    The drama I find poor, or just running legacy brands. Dr Who dates from the 1960s. Poldark from the 1970s, and they can't be arsed to make more than 3 episodes of Sherlock at a time.

    But, hey? David Attenborough is good. So I guess that's something.
    I don't get criminal proceedings if I don't subscribe to SKY.

    Why should it be the case for the, ah, state broadcaster?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    Presume this poll is pretty voodoo-ey, but still.

    https://twitter.com/robostarred/status/621602393181016065

    I'd like to say London doesn't deserve Galloway, but..

    How on Earth does Galloway get 21%? I hate to think the Islamist vote is that large in London.
    It isn't but that person is voting multiple times...........

    Yep - it's a classic voodoo poll, and its easy to vote multiple times if you don't store cookies. I love the recollection of the Daily Express one where they asked readers whether they thought British residents or visiting gypsies should get priority for health care: someone organised a serious voodoo operation and 95% voted to give priority to gypsies :-).

    Sort of on topic, I think the Corbyn price is now too short. He's doing well, but not that well.
    She's talking about the corrupt Muslim voting patterns I think nick



    The corrupt Tower Hamlets voting patterns, to be precise.

    And it was (slightly) tongue in cheek.

    Still the gypsy story is quite funny. Didn't the same happen with Brunel when he came 2nd in the BBC's Greatest Briton series? Lots of engineers and others told all their mates and got him a very big vote so that he got pretty close to Churchill.

    Brunel is very deservedly the 2nd greatest Briton.
    He had to make a U-turn on (7 ft) Broad Gauge however.
    Isambard was right on that too. Our railways would have been in a much better state had we gone for it.

    Besides which.. Any great man, or woman, tries many things and has a few spectacular failures. Atmospheric railways were another.

    It's that energy, inspiration, leadership and creativeness that makes them great.
    Broad gauge is still used (albeit not as broad as 7ft!) for the main rail networks in Ireland north and south (5 ft 3 in), and in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka (5ft 6 in).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    JEO said:

    isam said:

    Plato said:

    The Kipper Effect and why I'd probably qualify any statement with I Don't Vote Kipper.

    BOOers need a different frontman to Farage et al.

    JEO said:

    Plato,

    This bridging loan could cause #Brexit. It has absolutely confirmed three major eurosceptic arguments:

    1) The EU is completely willing to tear up previous agreements it has made with Britain just a few years later if they're not enshrined in treaties.
    2) The Eurozone is willing to spend EU-wide money on Eurozone bailouts
    3) The Eurozone has started agreeing a single position before EU votes, so it can ram things through as a bloc and non-Euro members are completely sidelined. With just one more Eurozone member, the non-Euro countries won't be able to stop any measure they come up with.


    This is true. And has pretty much pushed me to the OUT even though I was marginally IN before and wanted a decent renegotiation. Nothing the EU promises can be believed, so no renegotiation is valid, and OUT is the vote.

    Based on some of the comments here, I am not the only one moving in this direction.

    I wonder how many "shy BOOers" there are going to be come referendum day?

    Portillo
    Kate Hoey. Whoever it is, the Out campaign needs to get itself sorted. They should have had a representative to go on all the TV channels over this deal, but they are ceding the argument to UKIP, and most people tune out to them.
    Yes I agree

    But Tories aren't allowed to campaign until they've seen the 'renegotiation'...

    Would be best coming from a non or ex politician anyway, and to most people Portillo is a well mannered smoothie who is on the telly. Plenty of my friends and family who've no interest in politics love him
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    viewcode said:

    there is a liberal bias in the news coverage.

    There's nothing wrong with liberal bias in the BBC. It counteracts the conservative bias in the Telegraph and the reality bias in the New Scientist. Just as the Church of England performs a valuable service in giving nice middle-class atheists a welcoming place to sit on a Sunday, the BBC gives nice middle-class gentlefolk a cake and gardening comfort zone. This is a valuable thing.

    (It occurs to me that although I started this response in mockery, I may actually be sincere at this point. I don't know if it's possible to be sarcastic and nonsarcastic simultaneously, but assume I am here)

    Ok, I'll assume that.

    I am forced on pain of imprisonment to pay for the conservative bias of the Telegraph, or the reality bias of the New Scientist? Do the authorities send me threatening letters even if I have no intention of ever reading any newspaper publication?

    No, they do not. No political point of view has a right to be broadcast, or heard, or the general public forced to pay for it if they do not agree and wish to hear it. It's fundamentally anti-democratic.

    But you point out neatly precisely why so many conservatives detest the BBC.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    European judges agree with British courts and throw out right-to-die case brought by paralysed ex-builder and widow of man who had locked-in syndrome

    Paul Lamb and Jane Nicklinson's claim 'unanimously' rejected by judges
    Mr Lamb and Tony Nicklinson's widow want right to die legalised in UK
    Daughter Lauren says 'cruel' decision will not end their campaign


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3163593/Paralysed-ex-builder-widow-man-locked-syndrome-lose-right-die-case-European-Court-Human-Rights.html#ixzz3g3oCPP29
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    isam said:

    JEO said:

    isam said:

    Plato said:

    The Kipper Effect and why I'd probably qualify any statement with I Don't Vote Kipper.

    BOOers need a different frontman to Farage et al.

    JEO said:

    Plato,

    This bridging loan could cause #Brexit. It has absolutely confirmed three major eurosceptic arguments:

    1) The EU is completely willing to tear up previous agreements it has made with Britain just a few years later if they're not enshrined in treaties.
    2) The Eurozone is willing to spend EU-wide money on Eurozone bailouts
    3) The Eurozone has started agreeing a single position before EU votes, so it can ram things through as a bloc and non-Euro members are completely sidelined. With just one more Eurozone member, the non-Euro countries won't be able to stop any measure they come up with.


    This is true. And has pretty much pushed me to the OUT even though I was marginally IN before and wanted a decent renegotiation. Nothing the EU promises can be believed, so no renegotiation is valid, and OUT is the vote.

    Based on some of the comments here, I am not the only one moving in this direction.

    I wonder how many "shy BOOers" there are going to be come referendum day?

    Portillo
    Kate Hoey. Whoever it is, the Out campaign needs to get itself sorted. They should have had a representative to go on all the TV channels over this deal, but they are ceding the argument to UKIP, and most people tune out to them.
    Yes I agree

    But Tories aren't allowed to campaign until they've seen the 'renegotiation'...

    Would be best coming from a non or ex politician anyway, and to most people Portillo is a well mannered smoothie who is on the telly. Plenty of my friends and family who've no interest in politics love him
    I suspect Portillo has less appeal outside the south east of England.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161
    JEO said:

    isam said:

    JEO said:

    isam said:

    Plato said:

    The Kipper Effect and why I'd probably qualify any statement with I Don't Vote Kipper.

    BOOers need a different frontman to Farage et al.

    JEO said:

    Plato,

    This bridging loan could cause #Brexit. It has absolutely confirmed three major eurosceptic arguments:

    1) The EU is completely willing to tear up previous agreements it has made with Britain just a few years later if they're not enshrined in treaties.
    2) The Eurozone is willing to spend EU-wide money on Eurozone bailouts
    3) The Eurozone has started agreeing a single position before EU votes, so it can ram things through as a bloc and non-Euro members are completely sidelined. With just one more Eurozone member, the non-Euro countries won't be able to stop any measure they come up with.


    This is true. And has pretty much pushed me to the OUT even though I was marginally IN before and wanted a decent renegotiation. Nothing the EU promises can be believed, so no renegotiation is valid, and OUT is the vote.

    Based on some of the comments here, I am not the only one moving in this direction.

    I wonder how many "shy BOOers" there are going to be come referendum day?

    Portillo
    Kate Hoey. Whoever it is, the Out campaign needs to get itself sorted. They should have had a representative to go on all the TV channels over this deal, but they are ceding the argument to UKIP, and most people tune out to them.
    Yes I agree

    But Tories aren't allowed to campaign until they've seen the 'renegotiation'...

    Would be best coming from a non or ex politician anyway, and to most people Portillo is a well mannered smoothie who is on the telly. Plenty of my friends and family who've no interest in politics love him
    I suspect Portillo has less appeal outside the south east of England.
    Oh, he's been all over the UK by rail :)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    Presume this poll is pretty voodoo-ey, but still.

    https://twitter.com/robostarred/status/621602393181016065

    I'd like to say London doesn't deserve Galloway, but..

    How on Earth does Galloway get 21%? I hate to think the Islamist vote is that large in London.
    It isn't but that person is voting multiple times...........

    Yep - it's a classic voodoo poll, and its easy to vote multiple times if you don't store cookies. I love the recollection of the Daily Express one where they asked readers whether they thought British residents or visiting gypsies should get priority for health care: someone organised a serious voodoo operation and 95% voted to give priority to gypsies :-).

    Sort of on topic, I think the Corbyn price is now too short. He's doing well, but not that well.
    She's talking about the corrupt Muslim voting patterns I think nick



    The corrupt Tower Hamlets voting patterns, to be precise.

    And it was (slightly) tongue in cheek.

    Still the gypsy story is quite funny. Didn't the same happen with Brunel when he came 2nd in the BBC's Greatest Briton series? Lots of engineers and others told all their mates and got him a very big vote so that he got pretty close to Churchill.

    Brunel is very deservedly the 2nd greatest Briton.
    He had to make a U-turn on (7 ft) Broad Gauge however.
    Isambard was right on that too. Our railways would have been in a much better state had we gone for it.

    Besides which.. Any great man, or woman, tries many things and has a few spectacular failures. Atmospheric railways were another.

    It's that energy, inspiration, leadership and creativeness that makes them great.
    In theory, yes. In practice, no. Broad gauge costs so much more to build that we would not have had many of the lines built (it would also have been limited wrt curves, which is why many mountain lines were narrow gauge).

    It would have worked if we had gone for a more continental system and had governments plan the network, instead of the competition that proved wonderful and wasteful in equal measure in the UK.

    Which brings me onto a question for the PB pundits: what was the first serious legislative attempt at railway nationalisation in the UK, where the power were granted but never enacted?
  • In the News was a protest over the MoJ making cuts in spending which was falling on the pot for legal aid fees. Yes savings need to be found. But oh dear one area for savings was dropped today.

    Prosecuting licence fee dodgers makes up 10% of the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS paid for by the MoJ. Today a barrister produces a report which recommends carrying on prosecuting 180,000 people a year for failure to pay licence fees and which eventually leads to over 30 people (mainly women) going to jail. The scale of the number of lives blighted by this criminalisation and the cost that falls on the MoJ beggars belief. One day a tv channel will make a series of programmes about it....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    Presume this poll is pretty voodoo-ey, but still.

    https://twitter.com/robostarred/status/621602393181016065

    I'd like to say London doesn't deserve Galloway, but..

    How on Earth does Galloway get 21%? I hate to think the Islamist vote is that large in London.
    It isn't but that person is voting multiple times...........

    Yep - it's a classic voodoo poll, and its easy to vote multiple times if you don't store cookies. I love the recollection of the Daily Express one where they asked readers whether they thought British residents or visiting gypsies should get priority for health care: someone organised a serious voodoo operation and 95% voted to give priority to gypsies :-).

    Sort of on topic, I think the Corbyn price is now too short. He's doing well, but not that well.
    She's talking about the corrupt Muslim voting patterns I think nick



    The corrupt Tower Hamlets voting patterns, to be precise.

    And it was (slightly) tongue in cheek.

    Still the gypsy story is quite funny. Didn't the same happen with Brunel when he came 2nd in the BBC's Greatest Briton series? Lots of engineers and others told all their mates and got him a very big vote so that he got pretty close to Churchill.

    Brunel is very deservedly the 2nd greatest Briton.
    He had to make a U-turn on (7 ft) Broad Gauge however.
    Isambard was right on that too. Our railways would have been in a much better state had we gone for it.

    Besides which.. Any great man, or woman, tries many things and has a few spectacular failures. Atmospheric railways were another.

    It's that energy, inspiration, leadership and creativeness that makes them great.
    In theory, yes. In practice, no. Broad gauge costs so much more to build that we would not have had many of the lines built (it would also have been limited wrt curves, which is why many mountain lines were narrow gauge).

    It would have worked if we had gone for a more continental system and had governments plan the network, instead of the competition that proved wonderful and wasteful in equal measure in the UK.

    Which brings me onto a question for the PB pundits: what was the first serious legislative attempt at railway nationalisation in the UK, where the power were granted but never enacted?
    During the First World War?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    JEO said:

    MarkHopkins,

    You're the fourth person on here who has switched from In to Out in the last week. I think you've swung further than I have. I would vote in if we could get a double QMV system and it enshrined in treaty change. I think Cameron probably won't get that, but he has outperformed my expectations before. Even people like TheScreamingEagles who were very strongly In are now considering things.

    This is all very, very dangerous for the Conservatives. By the time of the referendum, it could be only the most loyalist Conservative supporters that will go with Cameron's recommendation. If the top brass all campaign for In - especially if they do so through misleading or deceptive arguments - they could lose vast amounts of trust with their base whatever the result. Right now a lot of people are put off UKIP by Farage, but I suspect he will resign after the refendum, in victory or defeat. It could be a Scottish Labour situation, and once people make the emotional break it is hard for them to go back.

    I could also see the most effective Out Conservative winning the next leadership election, whether it is Hammond, Boris, Patel or Kwarteng.

    I think it's more like a typical phenomenon familiar from recent elections. Tories say that this time they'll vote Ukip, right up to election day. Unlike ex-Labour voters who actually do vote Ukip.

    Similarly, everyone is offended by the innard workings of the sausage factory at the moment and are saying they are done with sausages. But when it comes to the decision about eating a sausage, they might think differently.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509
    edited July 2015



    In theory, yes. In practice, no. Broad gauge costs so much more to build that we would not have had many of the lines built (it would also have been limited wrt curves, which is why many mountain lines were narrow gauge).

    It would have worked if we had gone for a more continental system and had governments plan the network, instead of the competition that proved wonderful and wasteful in equal measure in the UK.

    Which brings me onto a question for the PB pundits: what was the first serious legislative attempt at railway nationalisation in the UK, where the power were granted but never enacted?

    During the First World War?
    Much, much earlier.

    Edit: as a hint, I think the same act introduced a piece of legislation that is till relevant to railway timetabling today, and is much beloved of enthusiasts who want to visit certain pieces of route. Such as yourself. ;)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969
    JEO said:

    isam said:

    Plato said:

    The Kipper Effect and why I'd probably qualify any statement with I Don't Vote Kipper.

    BOOers need a different frontman to Farage et al.

    JEO said:

    Plato,

    This bridging loan could cause #Brexit. It has absolutely confirmed three major eurosceptic arguments:

    1) The EU is completely willing to tear up previous agreements it has made with Britain just a few years later if they're not enshrined in treaties.
    2) The Eurozone is willing to spend EU-wide money on Eurozone bailouts
    3) The Eurozone has started agreeing a single position before EU votes, so it can ram things through as a bloc and non-Euro members are completely sidelined. With just one more Eurozone member, the non-Euro countries won't be able to stop any measure they come up with.


    This is true. And has pretty much pushed me to the OUT even though I was marginally IN before and wanted a decent renegotiation. Nothing the EU promises can be believed, so no renegotiation is valid, and OUT is the vote.

    Based on some of the comments here, I am not the only one moving in this direction.

    I wonder how many "shy BOOers" there are going to be come referendum day?

    Portillo
    Kate Hoey. Whoever it is, the Out campaign needs to get itself sorted. They should have had a representative to go on all the TV channels over this deal, but they are ceding the argument to UKIP, and most people tune out to them.
    William Hague would be an interesting head of the No campaign. If he had the interest.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    Presume this poll is pretty voodoo-ey, but still.

    https://twitter.com/robostarred/status/621602393181016065

    I'd like to say London doesn't deserve Galloway, but..

    How on Earth does Galloway get 21%? I hate to think the Islamist vote is that large in London.
    It isn't but that person is voting multiple times...........

    Yep

    Sort of on topic, I think the Corbyn price is now too short. He's doing well, but not that well.
    She's talking about the corrupt Muslim voting patterns I think nick



    The

    Brunel is very deservedly the 2nd greatest Briton.
    He had to make a U-turn on (7 ft) Broad Gauge however.
    Isambard was right on that too. Our railways would have been in a much better state had we gone for it.

    Besides which.. Any great man, or woman, tries many things and has a few spectacular failures. Atmospheric railways were another.

    It's that energy, inspiration, leadership and creativeness that makes them great.
    In theory, yes. In practice, no. Broad gauge costs so much more to build that we would not have had many of the lines built (it would also have been limited wrt curves, which is why many mountain lines were narrow gauge).

    It would have worked if we had gone for a more continental system and had governments plan the network, instead of the competition that proved wonderful and wasteful in equal measure in the UK.

    Which brings me onto a question for the PB pundits: what was the first serious legislative attempt at railway nationalisation in the UK, where the power were granted but never enacted?
    I am actually a civil engineer by profession, and work on rail projects, so know a bit about this. The upfront land purchase and capital costs would be slightly higher. But the engines could also run faster, more stable and smoothly, and carry more people in more comfort. So subsequent redevelopment costs of existing infrastructure (which are today, massive) would be far lower.

    The Great Western railway remains one of the best engineered railways in the world.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758


    You try contacting any other professional at the weekend out of hours: lawyers, teachers, accountants, stockbrokers, bankers etc and tell me how you get on!

    I regularly interact with clients, my partners and management over the weekend.

    It's relatively rare to have a weekend without a call, or at least an extended email conversation. My first call this morning, for instance, was at 5am.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    The Euro is sinking - must be time to head to France no ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11743457/Striking-ferry-workers-mutiny-on-ship-and-loot-bar-over-job-losses.html

    "French ferry workers occupying two ships in protest against job losses are said to have run amok - drinking the bar dry and causing criminal damage.

    The Rodin and Berlioz, which operated under the MyFerryLink brand, have been occupied since the beginning of the month at Calais.
    Strikers are angry with the proposed lease of the vessels to Danish operator DFDS.

    The boats were due to have been transferred to DFDS on July 2 after owners Eurotunnel decided to close its MyFerryLink business."
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626



    If you think it's excellent value, good for you. You should be free to make that choice. But we're not. We're forced to pay for it whether we want to or not.

    I rarely watch the BBC. The news is no better than ITN. It's GE output was awful. Sport coverage is nothing special.

    The drama I find poor, or just running legacy brands. Dr Who dates from the 1960s. Poldark from the 1970s, and they can't be arsed to make more than 3 episodes of Sherlock at a time.

    But, hey? David Attenborough is good. So I guess that's something.



    Why couldn't TMS be provided commercially on a station like TalkSport with adverts between the overs like on Sky Sports? I don't think a poll tax is necessary to provide that.

    Radio 4 - never listened to that, don't listen to BBC radio. You like it, great - why don't you pay for it. I listen to commercial radio when I'm in the car but still have nearly a quarter of my telly tax go on the radio. Its absurd. If it was up to me not a single penny of TV Poll Tax would go on radio services.

    Dr Who - sold and shown commercially across the globe but can't be funded commercially in the UK? Come off it.

    I did say in my post that I can't defend the nature of the licence fee. It should be subscription based. I would be happy to pay.
    If the move to subscription meant they would have to do a bit less, then I would be ok with that so long as what they lost was the stuff I don't currently consume ;-)

    This is my 1000th post, shame it's so mundane :-)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    Presume this poll is pretty voodoo-ey, but still.

    https://twitter.com/robostarred/status/621602393181016065

    I'd like to say London doesn't deserve Galloway, but..

    How on Earth does Galloway get 21%? I hate to think the Islamist vote is that large in London.
    It isn't but that person is voting multiple times...........

    Yep

    Sort of on topic, I think the Corbyn price is now too short. He's doing well, but not that well.
    She's talking about the corrupt Muslim voting patterns I think nick



    The

    Brunel is very deservedly the 2nd greatest Briton.
    He had to make a U-turn on (7 ft) Broad Gauge however.
    Isambard was right on that too. Our railways would have been in a much better state had we gone for it.

    Besides which.. Any great man, or woman, tries many things and has a few spectacular failures. Atmospheric railways were another.

    It's that energy, inspiration, leadership and creativeness that makes them great.
    In theory, yes. In practice, no. Broad gauge costs so much more to build that we would not have had many of the lines built (it would also have been limited wrt curves, which is why many mountain lines were narrow gauge).

    It would have worked if we had gone for a more continental system and had governments plan the network, instead of the competition that proved wonderful and wasteful in equal measure in the UK.

    Which brings me onto a question for the PB pundits: what was the first serious legislative attempt at railway nationalisation in the UK, where the power were granted but never enacted?
    I am actually a civil engineer by profession, and work on rail projects, so know a bit about this. The upfront land purchase and capital costs would be slightly higher. But the engines could also run faster, more stable and smoothly, and carry more people in more comfort. So subsequent redevelopment costs of existing infrastructure (which are today, massive) would be far lower.

    The Great Western railway remains one of the best engineered railways in the world.
    A pity they closed the Great Central Railway north of Quainton Road.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    Life saving work is covered by existing emergency rotas, as are post op infections.

    What the government is talking about is NON-emergency work. Is it not unreasonable to expect someone troubled by bunnions to wait until a weekday? Or to have their annual diabetes review? Or to get a new hearing aid fitted?

    It's about capacity utilisation.

    If you have an expensive facility (OR, MRI, whatever) it makes sense to maximise the use of the facility. If you don't use it 2 days of the week, close to 30% of the potential value from the capital investment is wasted.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969
    edited July 2015
    TGOHF said:

    The Euro is sinking - must be time to head to France no ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11743457/Striking-ferry-workers-mutiny-on-ship-and-loot-bar-over-job-losses.html

    "French ferry workers occupying two ships in protest against job losses are said to have run amok - drinking the bar dry and causing criminal damage.

    The Rodin and Berlioz, which operated under the MyFerryLink brand, have been occupied since the beginning of the month at Calais.
    Strikers are angry with the proposed lease of the vessels to Danish operator DFDS.

    The boats were due to have been transferred to DFDS on July 2 after owners Eurotunnel decided to close its MyFerryLink business."

    Clearly time for the Eurozone leaders to step in and force draconian union reform on....

    Oh.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509


    I am actually a civil engineer by profession, and work on rail projects, so know a bit about this. The upfront land purchase and capital costs would be slightly higher. But the engines could also run faster, more stable and smoothly, and carry more people in more comfort. So subsequent redevelopment costs of existing infrastructure (which are today, massive) would be far lower.

    The Great Western railway remains one of the best engineered railways in the world.

    I am very jealous. One of my biggest regrets in life was that I did not complete my geo eng studies, although the reasons for my not completing them were rather forced on me.

    I agree with the advantages, but it is not just about land costs: narrower railways can wind more easily around hills, avoiding some large civil engineering works.

    If broad gauge had become the standard, many lines would not have been economic to build, especially in upland areas.

    Then again, although I admire Brunel, I am not a fan of the GWR and its coppertop adherents. It's Midland Crimson all the way for me! And we won the gauge war at Gloucester! :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161



    In theory, yes. In practice, no. Broad gauge costs so much more to build that we would not have had many of the lines built (it would also have been limited wrt curves, which is why many mountain lines were narrow gauge).

    It would have worked if we had gone for a more continental system and had governments plan the network, instead of the competition that proved wonderful and wasteful in equal measure in the UK.

    Which brings me onto a question for the PB pundits: what was the first serious legislative attempt at railway nationalisation in the UK, where the power were granted but never enacted?

    During the First World War?
    Much, much earlier.

    Edit: as a hint, I think the same act introduced a piece of legislation that is till relevant to railway timetabling today, and is much beloved of enthusiasts who want to visit certain pieces of route. Such as yourself. ;)
    Was it this one?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Regulation_Act_1844
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2015
    I noticed yesterday that ITV are offering all their catch-up advert free for £3.99pcm. I'm not sure if this includes ITV Encore that is shown on Sky as a channel. TBH, I see so many adverts for Sky channels on other channels - I get quite confused. The notion of The Other Side as ITV used to be called is dead :wink:

    The shift to subs is happening everywhere.



    If you think it's excellent value, good for you. You should be free to make that choice. But we're not. We're forced to pay for it whether we want to or not.

    I rarely watch the BBC. The news is no better than ITN. It's GE output was awful. Sport coverage is nothing special.

    The drama I find poor, or just running legacy brands. Dr Who dates from the 1960s. Poldark from the 1970s, and they can't be arsed to make more than 3 episodes of Sherlock at a time.

    But, hey? David Attenborough is good. So I guess that's something.



    Why couldn't TMS be provided commercially on a station like TalkSport with adverts between the overs like on Sky Sports? I don't think a poll tax is necessary to provide that.

    Radio 4 - never listened to that, don't listen to BBC radio. You like it, great - why don't you pay for it. I listen to commercial radio when I'm in the car but still have nearly a quarter of my telly tax go on the radio. Its absurd. If it was up to me not a single penny of TV Poll Tax would go on radio services.

    Dr Who - sold and shown commercially across the globe but can't be funded commercially in the UK? Come off it.

    I did say in my post that I can't defend the nature of the licence fee. It should be subscription based. I would be happy to pay.
    If the move to subscription meant they would have to do a bit less, then I would be ok with that so long as what they lost was the stuff I don't currently consume ;-)

    This is my 1000th post, shame it's so mundane :-)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161


    I am actually a civil engineer by profession, and work on rail projects, so know a bit about this. The upfront land purchase and capital costs would be slightly higher. But the engines could also run faster, more stable and smoothly, and carry more people in more comfort. So subsequent redevelopment costs of existing infrastructure (which are today, massive) would be far lower.

    The Great Western railway remains one of the best engineered railways in the world.

    I am very jealous. One of my biggest regrets in life was that I did not complete my geo eng studies, although the reasons for my not completing them were rather forced on me.

    I agree with the advantages, but it is not just about land costs: narrower railways can wind more easily around hills, avoiding some large civil engineering works.

    If broad gauge had become the standard, many lines would not have been economic to build, especially in upland areas.

    Then again, although I admire Brunel, I am not a fan of the GWR and its coppertop adherents. It's Midland Crimson all the way for me! And we won the gauge war at Gloucester! :)
    I did Peterborough to Leicester for the first time on Monday. Also have designs on the Welland Viaduct between Oakham and Corby, there are two evening trains that run in daylight each way at this time of year!
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    "This is relatively good news for pollsters..." But bad news too, since they (or at least some of them) ought to have known this from their own analysis already and been adjusting for it already. The strengthening of this phenomenon was known, partly from evidence and partly from intuition, to quite a lot of PB pundits, and it seems shocking that they should have more nous than the people who are actually paid to do the job.
  • Charles said:



    Life saving work is covered by existing emergency rotas, as are post op infections.

    What the government is talking about is NON-emergency work. Is it not unreasonable to expect someone troubled by bunnions to wait until a weekday? Or to have their annual diabetes review? Or to get a new hearing aid fitted?

    It's about capacity utilisation.

    If you have an expensive facility (OR, MRI, whatever) it makes sense to maximise the use of the facility. If you don't use it 2 days of the week, close to 30% of the potential value from the capital investment is wasted.
    The alternative is to have to buy more equipment and spend more on hospital buildings to house the facilities that are only used for 5 days a week. When periods outside of 9-5pm are taken into account some resources are only being used for 24% of the time.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509



    In theory, yes. In practice, no. Broad gauge costs so much more to build that we would not have had many of the lines built (it would also have been limited wrt curves, which is why many mountain lines were narrow gauge).

    It would have worked if we had gone for a more continental system and had governments plan the network, instead of the competition that proved wonderful and wasteful in equal measure in the UK.

    Which brings me onto a question for the PB pundits: what was the first serious legislative attempt at railway nationalisation in the UK, where the power were granted but never enacted?

    During the First World War?
    Much, much earlier.

    Edit: as a hint, I think the same act introduced a piece of legislation that is till relevant to railway timetabling today, and is much beloved of enthusiasts who want to visit certain pieces of route. Such as yourself. ;)
    Was it this one?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Regulation_Act_1844
    Yep. Surprisingly early - 1844.

    AIUI, the government were fed up with the early railways not doing their bit, so they put in place legislation to nationalise any railways that did not perform as expected (especially wrt finances). Rumour has it that the Railway King - George Hudson - intervened with Gladstone and had the legislation watered down - half the 48 clauses in the act were abandoned. Which was odd, as it was more or less targeted at him.

    That part of the act was never used, and it did nothing to stop the railway manias and subsequent crashes.

    It would be interesting to know hoe British railways - and indeed industry - would have developed if the act had not been watered down.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509


    I am actually a civil engineer by profession, and work on rail projects, so know a bit about this. The upfront land purchase and capital costs would be slightly higher. But the engines could also run faster, more stable and smoothly, and carry more people in more comfort. So subsequent redevelopment costs of existing infrastructure (which are today, massive) would be far lower.

    The Great Western railway remains one of the best engineered railways in the world.

    I am very jealous. One of my biggest regrets in life was that I did not complete my geo eng studies, although the reasons for my not completing them were rather forced on me.

    I agree with the advantages, but it is not just about land costs: narrower railways can wind more easily around hills, avoiding some large civil engineering works.

    If broad gauge had become the standard, many lines would not have been economic to build, especially in upland areas.

    Then again, although I admire Brunel, I am not a fan of the GWR and its coppertop adherents. It's Midland Crimson all the way for me! And we won the gauge war at Gloucester! :)
    I did Peterborough to Leicester for the first time on Monday. Also have designs on the Welland Viaduct between Oakham and Corby, there are two evening trains that run in daylight each way at this time of year!
    There's a brilliant bookshop at Stamford station that contains many railway books:

    http://www.roberthumm.co.uk/

    And Stamford itself is well worth spending a few hours in. A near-perfect Georgian coaching town.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161


    I am actually a civil engineer by profession, and work on rail projects, so know a bit about this. The upfront land purchase and capital costs would be slightly higher. But the engines could also run faster, more stable and smoothly, and carry more people in more comfort. So subsequent redevelopment costs of existing infrastructure (which are today, massive) would be far lower.

    The Great Western railway remains one of the best engineered railways in the world.

    I am very jealous. One of my biggest regrets in life was that I did not complete my geo eng studies, although the reasons for my not completing them were rather forced on me.

    I agree with the advantages, but it is not just about land costs: narrower railways can wind more easily around hills, avoiding some large civil engineering works.

    If broad gauge had become the standard, many lines would not have been economic to build, especially in upland areas.

    Then again, although I admire Brunel, I am not a fan of the GWR and its coppertop adherents. It's Midland Crimson all the way for me! And we won the gauge war at Gloucester! :)
    I did Peterborough to Leicester for the first time on Monday. Also have designs on the Welland Viaduct between Oakham and Corby, there are two evening trains that run in daylight each way at this time of year!
    There's a brilliant bookshop at Stamford station that contains many railway books:

    http://www.roberthumm.co.uk/

    And Stamford itself is well worth spending a few hours in. A near-perfect Georgian coaching town.
    Didn't have time to alight at Stamford, but saw its station is almost like a miniature version of nearby Burleigh House.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Sadiq Khan falling in polls after he tried to stir up Muslim tensions with made-up story:

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/sadiq-khan-would-lose-city-hall-contest-with-zac-goldsmith-poll-says-10393127.html
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    I'm surprised the %'s weren't higher:

    https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/621682744943357952
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    edited July 2015
    JEO said:

    Wow. The Eurozone ministers have all agreed they will support using the EU-wide EFSM fund for Greece, so they have a common position before the European Council vote on Friday:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33546352

    This is exactly what eurosceptics said would happen, wasn't it? The Eurozone forms a co-ordinated position and then uses that bloc vote to get it through. Apparently they only need one non-EZ member now and it passes.

    The Eurozone doesn't need any non-EZ member. They already have the power.

    The Annual report from the pro-EU "British Influence" organization states:

    A new weighting of Qualified Majority Voting (QMV) in the Council came into force in
    November 2014 as a result of changes agreed in the Treaty of Lisbon. QMV now requires
    the support of 55 per cent of the members of the Council and 65 per cent of the population
    of those Member States. This change means that the UK and other non-eurozone Member
    States could potentially be outvoted on Single Market matters by the eurozone if the latter
    votes as a bloc.


    EDIT: Amusingly, in the light of recent events, the report then goes on to claim "However, in practice this is highly unlikely".
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161
    edited July 2015
    Just saw this from a couple of threads ago - sorry for belated response

    Plato said:

    For railway fans @JosiasJessop @Sunil_Prasannan

    The only known historical atlas to the UK's railways is now available to buy - for the first time in ten years.

    A unique, hand-traced item, the luxury history book, called The Railways of Great Britain: A Historical Atlas, contains 646 pages of maps, chronicling all train lines in operation from 1807 to 1994.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3161212/The-incredible-hand-traced-atlas-Britain-s-railways-1807-1994-took-18-YEARS-complete.html#ixzz3ftbBhp9z
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    At £295 its not cheap, but probably not much more expensive than the stripogram plus his mum probably wouldn't object so much. So we could have a whip round to buy you know who a copy for his up-coming fortieth.


    Lovely thought, thanks muchly, I already have the previous edition from IIRC 2008, which even then was £150.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    calum said:
    What was the SNP number? :p
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @stephenkb: Official: @Corbyn4Leader takes the lead on CLP nominations. He has 49 to Burnham's 48. http://t.co/xs8BomR4qK
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Scott_P said:

    @stephenkb: Official: @Corbyn4Leader takes the lead on CLP nominations. He has 49 to Burnham's 48. http://t.co/xs8BomR4qK

    Supporters4Corbyn: - morituri te salutant. :lol:
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    calum said:
    own party.

    we can call this the self-awareness coefficient.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    JJ - tried to reply to you thrice, but Safari on my iPhone keeps crashing! In meetings now but will try and reply later.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RobD said:

    calum said:
    What was the SNP number? :p
    0%, It's the law.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Disraeli said:

    JEO said:

    Wow. The Eurozone ministers have all agreed they will support using the EU-wide EFSM fund for Greece, so they have a common position before the European Council vote on Friday:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33546352

    This is exactly what eurosceptics said would happen, wasn't it? The Eurozone forms a co-ordinated position and then uses that bloc vote to get it through. Apparently they only need one non-EZ member now and it passes.

    The Eurozone doesn't need any non-EZ member. They already have the power.

    The Annual report from the pro-EU "British Influence" organization states:

    A new weighting of Qualified Majority Voting (QMV) in the Council came into force in
    November 2014 as a result of changes agreed in the Treaty of Lisbon. QMV now requires
    the support of 55 per cent of the members of the Council and 65 per cent of the population
    of those Member States. This change means that the UK and other non-eurozone Member
    States could potentially be outvoted on Single Market matters by the eurozone if the latter
    votes as a bloc.


    EDIT: Amusingly, in the light of recent events, the report then goes on to claim "However, in practice this is highly unlikely".
    Interesting. I had heard they needed one non-EZ member for the vote on Friday, but I can't remember where now. What's so worrying about this vote isn't just that the EZ members all voted together, but they specifically staged a call to ensure a united position beforehand. It's like the Franco-German axis writ large.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    *applause*

    Scott_P said:

    @stephenkb: Official: @Corbyn4Leader takes the lead on CLP nominations. He has 49 to Burnham's 48. http://t.co/xs8BomR4qK

    Supporters4Corbyn: - morituri te salutant. :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161
    "morituri te salutant"

    In English, please? :p
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    The EU/eurozone remains despicably undemocratic.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    The EU/eurozone remains despicably undemocratic.

    If it were democratic, Germans could vote a financial transactions tax on Britain to pay for French farmers.

    It's undemocratic and that suits British interests perfectly.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "Statement in response to Government Green Paper on the future of the BBC
    Date: 16.07.2015 Last updated: 16.07.2015 at 12.57
    Category: Corporate
    The BBC has today released the following statement in response to the Government Green Paper on the future of the BBC.

    The BBC is a creative and economic powerhouse for Britain. The starting point for any debate should be - how can a strong BBC benefit Britain even more at home and abroad? The BBC has embraced change in the past and will continue to do so in the future, and we will set out our own proposals in September.

    We believe that this Green Paper would appear to herald a much diminished, less popular BBC. That would be bad for Britain and would not be the BBC that the public has known and loved for over 90 years.

    It is important that we hear what the public want. It should be for the public to decide whether programmes like Strictly or Bake Off, or stations like Radio One or Two, should continue.

    As the Director-General said on Tuesday, the BBC is not owned by its staff or by politicians, it is owned by the public. They are our shareholders. They pay the licence fee. Their voice should be heard the loudest.

    BBC Press Office"

    "economic powerhouse" ? What in that it relies on punters having to pony up with zero choice.

    In that case the DVLA is an economic powerhouse for Britain.

    The BBC has cut it's own throat - the garbage coverage of the Open and Wimbledon in the last 2 weeks is a pertinent example.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    @jeremycorbyn: @leftoutside I believe that homeo-meds works for some ppl and that it compliments 'convential' meds. they both come from organic matter...

    Didn't realise he was a homeopathy nutter too! Excellent

    To be fair, what he is saying is absolutely correct: homeo-meds work for some people.

    Never under-estimate the power of the placebo affect
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    JEO said:

    Plato,

    This bridging loan could cause #Brexit. It has absolutely confirmed three major eurosceptic arguments:

    1) The EU is completely willing to tear up previous agreements it has made with Britain just a few years later if they're not enshrined in treaties.

    Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well.

    TFEU 125 says that the responsibility for repaying public debt remains national and prevents risk premiums caused by unsound fiscal policies from spilling over to partner countries. How did that work out ?

    TFEU 123 prohibits monetary financing of budget deficits

    Almost everyone has been ignoring the convergence criteria in TFEU protocols 12 and 13 pretty much since the euro started, and many of the Eurozone countries are in violation of the Stability and Growth Pact, and have been for a number of years without any of the proscribed penalties.
    isam said:

    The thing is that amid the Greek financial crisis, the med migrant crisis etc Cameron is going to campaign that we stay in.. Because the tax payer is going to stop subsidising Bulgarians wages

    And he probably wont get that since it is generally agreed to need a treaty change which France has said it will veto, and Poland (and I believe at least one of the Balkan countries) has said that any benefit restrictions on immigrants is an absolute red line.

    Apart from that, no problem at all
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited July 2015
    EPG said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    The EU/eurozone remains despicably undemocratic.

    If it were democratic, Germans could vote a financial transactions tax on Britain to pay for French farmers.

    It's undemocratic and that suits British interests perfectly.
    You been out for some refreshment ? That makes no sense at all even with a federalist hat on.

    If Germany gets 55% of the votes on 65% of the population it can do exactly that, they just haven't got around to it yet, give them time.
  • Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited July 2015

    Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?

    The Greece bailout is completely illegal under TFEU 123 and 125, and yet it still seems to happening, they just ignore the inconvenient bits of treaties, like any other document. If we get a treaty as part of the renegotiation the inconvenient bits of that will get ignored in due course as well.
  • BBC "The BBC is a creative and economic powerhouse for Britain."

    So Speed Cameras are also an economic power house?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2015
    There are currently 224 comments under the BBC letter story in the Times - I'd say its 95% against the BBC's self image.

    Now maybe Times readers are disproportionately anti-BBC because they love Uncle Rupert - but I doubt it to this extent.

    The Beeb are really getting this wrong. As someone pointed out yesterday - they're also using very strange ways to mislead readers that more people wouldn't rather see adverts or sub rather than pay TVLF.
    TGOHF said:

    "Statement in response to Government Green Paper on the future of the BBC

    "economic powerhouse" ? What in that it relies on punters having to pony up with zero choice.

    In that case the DVLA is an economic powerhouse for Britain.

    The BBC has cut it's own throat - the garbage coverage of the Open and Wimbledon in the last 2 weeks is a pertinent example.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    BBC "The BBC is a creative and economic powerhouse for Britain."

    So Speed Cameras are also an economic power house?

    HMRC - an economic powerhouse for Britain.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited July 2015
    Supporters4Corbyn: - morituri te salutant. :lol:

    those who are about to die salute you. great stuff
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    The Dartford Crossing - an economic powerhouse for Britain.
  • Indigo said:

    Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?

    The Greece bailout is completely illegal under TFEU 123 and 125, and yet it still seems to happening, they just ignore the inconvenient bits of treaties, like any other document. If we get a treaty as part of the renegotiation the inconvenient bits of that will get ignored in due course as well.
    But where are the teats?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. EPG, the eurozone just voted for us to give the lion's share of a billion quid to their idiotic bailout. What part of that is legitimate, or fair?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Indigo said:

    Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?

    The Greece bailout is completely illegal under TFEU 123 and 125, and yet it still seems to happening, they just ignore the inconvenient bits of treaties, like any other document. If we get a treaty as part of the renegotiation the inconvenient bits of that will get ignored in due course as well.
    But where are the teats?
    You seem to be milking this one a bit..
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161
    TGOHF said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?

    The Greece bailout is completely illegal under TFEU 123 and 125, and yet it still seems to happening, they just ignore the inconvenient bits of treaties, like any other document. If we get a treaty as part of the renegotiation the inconvenient bits of that will get ignored in due course as well.
    But where are the teats?
    You seem to be milking this one a bit..
    Do you think he's "udder" suspicion?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?

    The Greece bailout is completely illegal under TFEU 123 and 125, and yet it still seems to happening, they just ignore the inconvenient bits of treaties, like any other document. If we get a treaty as part of the renegotiation the inconvenient bits of that will get ignored in due course as well.
    But where are the teats?
    I think they are the ones sitting around the table at the EU Commission, they seem a right bunch of teats!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    It's such an absurd argument - if they made that much money - we wouldn't need a telly tax at all!
    TGOHF said:

    The Dartford Crossing - an economic powerhouse for Britain.

  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    Mr. EPG, the eurozone just voted for us to give the lion's share of a billion quid to their idiotic bailout. What part of that is legitimate, or fair?

    Democracy is when the majority tells the minority what they will spend money on.

    But today, people are complaining that the EU majority is telling the EU minority what to spend money on.

    It seems to me that Britain is happier when the EU is less democratic.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?

    The Greece bailout is completely illegal under TFEU 123 and 125, and yet it still seems to happening, they just ignore the inconvenient bits of treaties, like any other document. If we get a treaty as part of the renegotiation the inconvenient bits of that will get ignored in due course as well.
    But where are the teats?
    You seem to be milking this one a bit..
    Do you think he's "udder" suspicion?
    Was easy to miss the typo the first time around - it was pasturised before you knew it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2015
    What is Froome doing....he has just broke Thomas for no reason.

    Edit: Thomas is man of the tour....the man is doing incredible levels of work.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    You are Ernie, The Fastest Milkman In The West and I claim my £5.

    Isn't that a supposedly favourite tune of Cameron?!
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?

    The Greece bailout is completely illegal under TFEU 123 and 125, and yet it still seems to happening, they just ignore the inconvenient bits of treaties, like any other document. If we get a treaty as part of the renegotiation the inconvenient bits of that will get ignored in due course as well.
    But where are the teats?
    You seem to be milking this one a bit..
    Do you think he's "udder" suspicion?
    Was easy to miss the typo the first time around - it was pasturised before you knew it.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    BBC "The BBC is a creative and economic powerhouse for Britain."

    And yet they're incapable of moving over to a voluntary subscription model of revenue raising.

    Doesn't add up.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Plato said:

    You are Ernie, The Fastest Milkman In The West and I claim my £5.

    Isn't that a supposedly favourite tune of Cameron?!

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?

    The Greece bailout is completely illegal under TFEU 123 and 125, and yet it still seems to happening, they just ignore the inconvenient bits of treaties, like any other document. If we get a treaty as part of the renegotiation the inconvenient bits of that will get ignored in due course as well.
    But where are the teats?
    You seem to be milking this one a bit..
    Do you think he's "udder" suspicion?
    Was easy to miss the typo the first time around - it was pasturised before you knew it.
    More of a Dick Emery man myself..
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I wonder if that Harriet Harman interview will be seen as a turning point of the leadership contest: Corbyn has won 15 of 23 nominations since Sunday.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    EPG said:

    Mr. EPG, the eurozone just voted for us to give the lion's share of a billion quid to their idiotic bailout. What part of that is legitimate, or fair?

    Democracy is when the majority tells the minority what they will spend money on.

    But today, people are complaining that the EU majority is telling the EU minority what to spend money on.

    It seems to me that Britain is happier when the EU is less democratic.
    It's a convincing argument.

    "Because the Eurozone has a larger population than the UK, the UK should be rightfully outvoted so it has to pay for Eurozone mistakes."

    Can I suggest you try it out with the broader public during the Brexit referendum?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    How many are still up for grabs?
    Danny565 said:

    I wonder if that Harriet Harman interview will be seen as a turning point of the leadership contest: Corbyn has won 15 of 23 nominations since Sunday.

  • Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo "Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well."

    Que?

    The Greece bailout is completely illegal under TFEU 123 and 125, and yet it still seems to happening, they just ignore the inconvenient bits of treaties, like any other document. If we get a treaty as part of the renegotiation the inconvenient bits of that will get ignored in due course as well.
    But where are the teats?
    I think they are the ones sitting around the table at the EU Commission, they seem a right bunch of teats!
    yes
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    edited July 2015
    EPG said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    The EU/eurozone remains despicably undemocratic.

    If it were democratic, Germans could vote a financial transactions tax on Britain to pay for French farmers.

    It's undemocratic and that suits British interests perfectly.
    The EU has a mix of :
    - democratic elements (decisions can be taken by QMV), and
    - undemocratic - where national vetoes are still allowed (though this latter area is getting smaller all the time)

    The FTT was was approved by the European Parliament in December 2012, and by the Council of Ministers in January 2013. It has been delayed by disagreement over the scope of the tax and British legal challenges - which to date have been rejected by the ECJ(what a surprise!)

    Whether democratic or undemocratic is irrelevant. It does not "suit British interests perfectly" in either form.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. EPG, you are a silly sausage.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,663
    Indigo said:

    JEO said:

    Plato,

    This bridging loan could cause #Brexit. It has absolutely confirmed three major eurosceptic arguments:

    1) The EU is completely willing to tear up previous agreements it has made with Britain just a few years later if they're not enshrined in treaties.

    Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well.

    TFEU 125 says that the responsibility for repaying public debt remains national and prevents risk premiums caused by unsound fiscal policies from spilling over to partner countries. How did that work out ?

    TFEU 123 prohibits monetary financing of budget deficits

    Almost everyone has been ignoring the convergence criteria in TFEU protocols 12 and 13 pretty much since the euro started, and many of the Eurozone countries are in violation of the Stability and Growth Pact, and have been for a number of years without any of the proscribed penalties.
    isam said:

    The thing is that amid the Greek financial crisis, the med migrant crisis etc Cameron is going to campaign that we stay in.. Because the tax payer is going to stop subsidising Bulgarians wages

    And he probably wont get that since it is generally agreed to need a treaty change which France has said it will veto, and Poland (and I believe at least one of the Balkan countries) has said that any benefit restrictions on immigrants is an absolute red line.

    Apart from that, no problem at all
    So: this morning you quoted Philippe Legrain, about how the Eurozone was being too harsh in enforcing fiscal compliance.

    And now you arguing the Eurozone is being too lax.

    Either case, on its own, is logically consistent. But you cannot argue both.

    Which is it: is the Eurozone being too harsh or too lax?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Osborne's usual smirk must now visible from space.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @Plato Nothing like kicking your opponents. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33550866 BT secured TV rights for more live football, complete coincidence that this story is run today.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Corbyn to drop out at some point this summer, having made his point?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    dr_spyn said:

    @Plato Nothing like kicking your opponents. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33550866 BT secured TV rights for more live football, complete coincidence that this story is run today.

    Is it time to break up BBBBBBB oh BT...
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I really must look up what BT TV includes. It was something we talked about there for years and it never got off the ground, then Bingo.
    dr_spyn said:

    @Plato Nothing like kicking your opponents. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33550866 BT secured TV rights for more live football, complete coincidence that this story is run today.

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    rcs1000 said:

    Indigo said:

    JEO said:

    Plato,

    This bridging loan could cause #Brexit. It has absolutely confirmed three major eurosceptic arguments:

    1) The EU is completely willing to tear up previous agreements it has made with Britain just a few years later if they're not enshrined in treaties.

    Almost, they are completely willing to teat up treaties as well.

    TFEU 125 says that the responsibility for repaying public debt remains national and prevents risk premiums caused by unsound fiscal policies from spilling over to partner countries. How did that work out ?

    TFEU 123 prohibits monetary financing of budget deficits

    Almost everyone has been ignoring the convergence criteria in TFEU protocols 12 and 13 pretty much since the euro started, and many of the Eurozone countries are in violation of the Stability and Growth Pact, and have been for a number of years without any of the proscribed penalties.
    isam said:

    The thing is that amid the Greek financial crisis, the med migrant crisis etc Cameron is going to campaign that we stay in.. Because the tax payer is going to stop subsidising Bulgarians wages

    And he probably wont get that since it is generally agreed to need a treaty change which France has said it will veto, and Poland (and I believe at least one of the Balkan countries) has said that any benefit restrictions on immigrants is an absolute red line.

    Apart from that, no problem at all
    So: this morning you quoted Philippe Legrain, about how the Eurozone was being too harsh in enforcing fiscal compliance.

    And now you arguing the Eurozone is being too lax.

    Either case, on its own, is logically consistent. But you cannot argue both.

    Which is it: is the Eurozone being too harsh or too lax?
    He's not accusing it of being too lax. He's accusing it of being illegal.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Plato said:

    I really must look up what BT TV includes. It was something we talked about there for years and it never got off the ground, then Bingo.

    dr_spyn said:

    @Plato Nothing like kicking your opponents. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33550866 BT secured TV rights for more live football, complete coincidence that this story is run today.

    All I know is that as a BT fibre broadband customer I get access to BT Sport on my computer (without taking the BT TV package). This gave me premiership matches. Now they plan to show Champions league but want to bill me £5 extra for that. Not very happy.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm with Plusnet and they want to charge me more for my current bband than Sky. So that's me off to Sky at the end of August.

    Churning their base is so pointless, frankly their service is constantly going down/resetting every day so it's the push I need to stop accepting it.

    Plato said:

    I really must look up what BT TV includes. It was something we talked about there for years and it never got off the ground, then Bingo.

    dr_spyn said:

    @Plato Nothing like kicking your opponents. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33550866 BT secured TV rights for more live football, complete coincidence that this story is run today.

    All I know is that as a BT fibre broadband customer I get access to BT Sport on my computer (without taking the BT TV package). This gave me premiership matches. Now they plan to show Champions league but want to bill me £5 extra for that. Not very happy.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Plato said:

    It's such an absurd argument - if they made that much money - we wouldn't need a telly tax at all!

    TGOHF said:

    The Dartford Crossing - an economic powerhouse for Britain.

    An economic powerhouse is one that stimulates economic activity and investment. The BBC does that. The UK has recently been named the number one country in the world in terms of soft power. The BBC has a lot to do with that view of our country.

    This is all very hopeful. Peak Tory hubris really could see them make some very stupid mistakes, such that even the current moribund Labour party could benefit.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    when is the LD big announcement?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TGOHF said:

    The BBC has cut it's own throat - the garbage coverage of the Open and Wimbledon in the last 2 weeks is a pertinent example.

    The Open? Are you from the future?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    See that Tiger Woods is poised to pounce in the later rounds. Only 11 off the lead.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 35s35 seconds ago
    In keeping with the new age the @LibDems leadership result will be announced first on Twitter. Expected very soon
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