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  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    And the Tories HAVE actually suffered a defeat here, because they have chickened out of a vote, on a massively divisive issue which reinforces Nasty Party stereotypes amongst people who believe that, because they realised they were going to lose.

    The win for the Tories might have been to proceed with the vote and lose it due to the SNP.

    This is the core of the Tories mess here. The failure to hold the vote so they could at least claim a "win" is quite remarkable. I think it shows a lot about Cameron's character - the man has no backbone.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Of course gay men discriminate like crazy against women in the fashion world but oddly this never seems to be brought up. Rare is the woman who wouldn't love to forge a career in fashion.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/08/fashion/thursdaystyles/in-fashion-who-really-gets-ahead.html

    Sacha Baron Cohen worked as a fashion model after college and Bruno is a delightful send up of the type of people in the fashion industry.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    Top BBC stars' pay rises by more than 20% and Staff numbers rose by 1.7% to 18,974

    I thought they were supposed to be cutting back?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Pulpstar said:

    Amazing that NASA is getting New Horizons 7800 miles from Pluto. Considering Pluto is travelling at over 10,000 mph (And is no bigger than Russia)

    I remember Voyager II passing Neptune whilst I was on holiday in California as a kid, and wondered when a Pluto mission would be sent...

    And then at the moment of triumph, as the spacecraft flashes closer to Neptune that could every have been envisaged a decade ago, someone is going to complain about the lead scientist's shirt, and he will lose his job.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11737801/snp-to-vote-down-foxhunting-live.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will punish David Cameron for his English Votes for English Laws plan by allowing SNP MPs to vote at a crucial foxhunting debate tomorrow in a bid to “remind him of how slim a majority he has”.
    A principled stand by the SNP then, hope they wont be complaining if the government gives them a good kicking in due course to "remind them who has a majority"
    Except that Cameron has completely folded and let Sturgeon give him the dockyard hooker treatment.

    Pulling the vote seems to be the dumbest thing the Tories could have done. If there was a potential for a Tory victory** via an elephant trap - they just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

    ** and I think this is overstated and really unlikely.

    given the SNP put Cameron into power one does have to question who's getting the pounding

    #toriesweehelpers
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Top BBC stars' pay rises by more than 20% and Staff numbers rose by 1.7% to 18,974

    I thought they were supposed to be cutting back?

    They probably are, but on production. Less than 50% of their budget is spent on programmes.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509
    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    JEO said:

    Financier said:

    I believe that it is still quite hard for a man to get the post of a nanny and certainly I believe that in many primary schools that male teachers have become a rarity? Are there many male teachers in girls-only schools or women teachers in boys-only schools.

    Also in a partnership, do most women still expect the man to be the 'provider' as I have seen in some divorce cases that when a man has lost his job, the partnership has been broken asunder?

    In Wales there is a lot of language discrimination in the public sector and charity sector, with a high number of jobs requiring fluency in Welsh even though only 23% have the ability to speak Welsh.

    I know of a case where a man was let go from a job he loved at a nursery because mothers were unwilling to leave their young children with a man.
    I can absolutely believe that. I have heard similar stories.

    No doubt in my mind that there is active gender discrimination in the childcare sector.
    Sadly, there is a lot of prejudice among mothers. I'm friends with a couple where the father decided to stay home to parent and the mother went back to work, as she was earning more. He loves it, but feels guilty that mothers are less willing to allow their kids to come over to play, and his children make less friends as a result.
    If its a mothers and baby/toddlers group, many of the women may be embarrassed at including a man in their topics of conversation.
    I don't think I've had many troubles in that regard. Generally the babies make the introductions by playing with other babies, so you have to interact.

    There have been some topics that I've willingly ducked out of though ...
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited July 2015

    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11737801/snp-to-vote-down-foxhunting-live.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will punish David Cameron for his English Votes for English Laws plan by allowing SNP MPs to vote at a crucial foxhunting debate tomorrow in a bid to “remind him of how slim a majority he has”.
    A principled stand by the SNP then, hope they wont be complaining if the government gives them a good kicking in due course to "remind them who has a majority"
    Except that Cameron has completely folded and let Sturgeon give him the dockyard hooker treatment.

    Pulling the vote seems to be the dumbest thing the Tories could have done. If there was a potential for a Tory victory** via an elephant trap - they just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

    ** and I think this is overstated and really unlikely.
    given the SNP put Cameron into power one does have to question who's getting the pounding

    #toriesweehelpers

    The SNP didn't create a voting system which gives an absolute majority to a party which can only scrape 37% of the vote. The lack of a Democracy in the United Kingdom put Cameron into power, nothing else.

    Although with Cameron hiding in Number 10, rocking back and forth as he realises so much of his policy will now go undelivered, it may be that this undemocratic, illegitimate anachronism will be giving the Tories a very large headache for the next five years.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509
    FalseFlag said:

    Of course gay men discriminate like crazy against women in the fashion world but oddly this never seems to be brought up. Rare is the woman who wouldn't love to forge a career in fashion.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/08/fashion/thursdaystyles/in-fashion-who-really-gets-ahead.html

    Sacha Baron Cohen worked as a fashion model after college and Bruno is a delightful send up of the type of people in the fashion industry.

    "Rare is the woman who wouldn't love to forge a career in fashion."

    You really make this shit up, don't you?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    antifrank said:

    Indigo said:

    antifrank said:

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Spot on. It's on issues like this that I feel Cameron lets Conservatives down. It's new Labourese newspeak.

    And if the Prime Minister is prepared to misuse statistics in that way, it doesn't inspire confidence that any legislation on the issue will be sensible, or that the government will sensibly treat the data that emerges.
    Mr Antifrank assures us that we can rely on the public to correctly understand and interpret the sort of disingenuous crap that government are pumping out on this matter... we shall see.
    How do the two of you feel about school league tables?
    I think they're of interest, but they have to be treated cautiously.

    If a Prime Minister were to argue that School A is better than School B, because it achieves better results, without looking at the background of the school, the nature of its pupils, the strengths and weaknesses of that school, then I'd say he was misusing statistics.
    I'm sure that the statistics produced from this new requirement will also be of interest but need to be treated cautiously.

    I don't get the desire that we should have less information about something that everyone, even Indigo, accepts is a problem. Until we have the data, we can't see where the problem is arising or how best to address it.
    I don't say this lightly, but your lying... is that a measure of how desperate you are to prove your point ? When I began my reply to you with "There is a problem, it needs addressing with thought, care and consideration.", which bit was unclear about accepting there was a problem.
    Rather than accusing someone of lying, I suggest you learn to read.
    *blush* I was just looking for the edit button too late. My apologies. Possibly a little less rubbishing everyone that doesn't accept your liberal view of the world, and accepting that these sort of statistic are going to get misused, by the government amongst others (as can be seen from Cameron's fatuous and misleading statement today) might result in less keyboard rage ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Indigo said:

    antifrank said:

    Indigo said:

    antifrank said:

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:


    Spot on. It's on issues like this that I feel Cameron lets Conservatives down. It's new Labourese newspeak.

    And if the Prime Minister is prepared to misuse statistics in that way, it doesn't inspire confidence that any legislation on the issue will be sensible, or that the government will sensibly treat the data that emerges.
    Mr Antifrank assures us that we can rely on the public to correctly understand and interpret the sort of disingenuous crap that government are pumping out on this matter... we shall see.
    How do the two of you feel about school league tables?
    I think they're of interest, but they have to be treated cautiously.

    If a Prime Minister were to argue that School A is better than School B, because it achieves better results, without looking at the background of the school, the nature of its pupils, the strengths and weaknesses of that school, then I'd say he was misusing statistics.
    I'm sure that the statistics produced from this new requirement will also be of interest but need to be treated cautiously.

    I don't get the desire that we should have less information about something that everyone, even Indigo, accepts is a problem. Until we have the data, we can't see where the problem is arising or how best to address it.
    I don't say this lightly, but your lying... is that a measure of how desperate you are to prove your point ? When I began my reply to you with "There is a problem, it needs addressing with thought, care and consideration.", which bit was unclear about accepting there was a problem.
    Rather than accusing someone of lying, I suggest you learn to read.
    *blush* I was just looking for the edit button too late. My apologies. Possibly a little less rubbishing everyone that doesn't accept your liberal view of the world, and accepting that these sort of statistic are going to get misused, by the government amongst others (as can be seen from Cameron's fatuous and misleading statement today) might result in less keyboard rage ;)
    Apology accepted.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Financier said:

    watford30 said:

    Aww, the little foxy woxys are safe again.

    Now, is it too much to expect that the filthy rich animal charities might devote some more of their vast budgets to the greater problem of cruelty in certain abattoirs? Or are they too scared of having their plush HQ's attacked?

    Or even about fishing for pleasure (and not for food) and the pain and stress caused by capturing a fish on a hook. Not a chance they will touch that.
    Grey wolves naturally hunt elk and moose in packs as natural predators in the wilder parts of Canada.

    I see very little moral difference between that and hunting foxes with hounds here. Foxes have no natural predators in the UK. They in turn pursue and hunt smaller animals - including lambs, chickens and ducks.

    I do not see any welfare argument that this natural process is worse than trapping, shooting or otherwise culling foxes that runs risk of wounding and a different kind of suffering.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It would be interesting to see some new polling on the EU referendum question to see whether the Greece situation has had any impact on opinion.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969
    watford30 said:

    Top BBC stars' pay rises by more than 20% and Staff numbers rose by 1.7% to 18,974

    I thought they were supposed to be cutting back?

    They probably are, but on production. Less than 50% of their budget is spent on programmes.
    Do you think Ford spend less than 50% of their budget making cars? Or Shell less than 50% of their budget on energy? Time the Beeb had a reality check about what it is they do...
  • EPG said:

    Nobody loses.

    Save the people of England, whose birthright remains denied to them under the pain of the criminal law. They are the losers yet again from these political shenanigans.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    The pound rose by a cent against the dollar after Bank of England governor Mark Carney said the time for an interest rise was getting closer.

    Speaking to Parliament's Treasury Committee, he said: "The point at which interest rates may begin to rise is moving closer.

    "Once rates begin to adjust, we expect for those adjustments to be at a gradual pace and to a limited extent."

    UK rates have been at the record low of 0.5% for more than six years.

    Most analysts do not expect the Bank to raise rates until next year at the earliest. (BBC)
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
    EVEL is undeliverable which is why the Tories aren't proposing it. Any English bill can still be defeated by the SNP under the current plans.

    There is no possibility of the Tories delivering a real EVEL when all other parties will vote against them guaranteed (except for 1 UKIP MP) and it only takes 12 Tories to defeat them.

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11737801/snp-to-vote-down-foxhunting-live.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will punish David Cameron for his English Votes for English Laws plan by allowing SNP MPs to vote at a crucial foxhunting debate tomorrow in a bid to “remind him of how slim a majority he has”.
    A principled stand by the SNP then, hope they wont be complaining if the government gives them a good kicking in due course to "remind them who has a majority"
    Except that Cameron has completely folded and let Sturgeon give him the dockyard hooker treatment.

    Pulling the vote seems to be the dumbest thing the Tories could have done. If there was a potential for a Tory victory** via an elephant trap - they just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

    ** and I think this is overstated and really unlikely.
    given the SNP put Cameron into power one does have to question who's getting the pounding

    #toriesweehelpers
    The SNP didn't create a voting system which gives an absolute majority to a party which can only scrape 37% of the vote. The lack of a Democracy in the United Kingdom put Cameron into power, nothing else.

    Although with Cameron hiding in Number 10, rocking back and forth as he realises so much of his policy will now go undelivered, it may be that this undemocratic, illegitimate anachronism will be giving the Tories a very large headache for the next five years.

    Yeah whatever, but Cameron sits in No 10 because of the SNP.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Nate Silvers pre election forecast....

    https://twitter.com/mrsteerpike/status/620907237729419265
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I think this flushing out of the SNP has comprehensively strengthened the hand of EVELers.

    Up to now, the HMG have been all very consensual - perplexingly so to some of us. Now BANG - we get a dead fox on the table, the SNP outed as breaking their own self-denying ordinance and the Tories can now say

    "Sorry, we were willing to work with the members for Scotland here - but this clearly isn't workable in practice - here's a rule change that enshrines EVEL from first reading to final vote."
    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    @Sean_F I'd be surprised too, but when I mean 'normalise', I mean that it should be just as socially acceptable as a mother staying at home. As JosiasJessop said previously, there appears to be this idea that being a stay-at-home dad makes a man 'less of man', and an aura of suspicion around men as carers. If the idea of men as carers is something that becomes just as normal as a woman being a carer, then I think it will pave the way for a change of attitude in things such as family courts.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Scott_P said:

    isam said:

    Nigel Farage will not be in the debates .

    Like
    Ha cheers! And sorry!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969
    Dair said:

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.

    You just keep thinking that....
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11737801/snp-to-vote-down-foxhunting-live.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will punish David Cameron for his English Votes for English Laws plan by allowing SNP MPs to vote at a crucial foxhunting debate tomorrow in a bid to “remind him of how slim a majority he has”.
    A principled stand by the SNP then, hope they wont be complaining if the government gives them a good kicking in due course to "remind them who has a majority"
    Except that Cameron has completely folded and let Sturgeon give him the dockyard hooker treatment.

    Pulling the vote seems to be the dumbest thing the Tories could have done. If there was a potential for a Tory victory** via an elephant trap - they just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

    ** and I think this is overstated and really unlikely.
    given the SNP put Cameron into power one does have to question who's getting the pounding

    #toriesweehelpers
    The SNP didn't create a voting system which gives an absolute majority to a party which can only scrape 37% of the vote. The lack of a Democracy in the United Kingdom put Cameron into power, nothing else.

    Although with Cameron hiding in Number 10, rocking back and forth as he realises so much of his policy will now go undelivered, it may be that this undemocratic, illegitimate anachronism will be giving the Tories a very large headache for the next five years.
    Yeah whatever, but Cameron sits in No 10 because of the SNP.



    Yes. Sits there terrified of putting manifesto commitments to a vote in the Commons.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,885
    watford30 said:

    Top BBC stars' pay rises by more than 20% and Staff numbers rose by 1.7% to 18,974

    I thought they were supposed to be cutting back?

    They probably are, but on production. Less than 50% of their budget is spent on programmes.
    Yep. Only make cuts to the frontline stuff, that way you can parade your bleeding stumps and whip public opinion up against cuts. That's the nature of state ownership, unless you have an incredibly selfless public service ethos throughout the organisation which probably hasn't existed since the 50's. The 1850's.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Paying £850m towards Greece's basketcase economy has irked a great number of people who were previously Inners or not that fussed before.

    That I can see having another one-more-heave impact on the polling.
    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to see some new polling on the EU referendum question to see whether the Greece situation has had any impact on opinion.

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Dair

    'Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.'

    The Tories set a trap and the SNP clowns walked in with both feet.

    Pure genius.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    JEO said:

    Financier said:

    I believe that it is still quite hard for a man to get the post of a nanny and certainly I believe that in many primary schools that male teachers have become a rarity? Are there many male teachers in girls-only schools or women teachers in boys-only schools.

    Also in a partnership, do most women still expect the man to be the 'provider' as I have seen in some divorce cases that when a man has lost his job, the partnership has been broken asunder?

    In Wales there is a lot of language discrimination in the public sector and charity sector, with a high number of jobs requiring fluency in Welsh even though only 23% have the ability to speak Welsh.

    I know of a case where a man was let go from a job he loved at a nursery because mothers were unwilling to leave their young children with a man.
    I can absolutely believe that. I have heard similar stories.

    No doubt in my mind that there is active gender discrimination in the childcare sector.
    Sadly, there is a lot of prejudice among mothers. I'm friends with a couple where the father decided to stay home to parent and the mother went back to work, as she was earning more. He loves it, but feels guilty that mothers are less willing to allow their kids to come over to play, and his children make less friends as a result.
    If its a mothers and baby/toddlers group, many of the women may be embarrassed at including a man in their topics of conversation.
    I don't think I've had many troubles in that regard. Generally the babies make the introductions by playing with other babies, so you have to interact.

    There have been some topics that I've willingly ducked out of though ...
    Yes it is great fun. When visiting family in Spain, I was very pleasantly surprised at the very open attitude there between children and adults of both sexes and all ages. It is common for strangers to speak to children in a shop and even pat them.

    When I take my grandchildren to school there, I am welcomed by all the mainly mums (but a few dads) and the mums are eager to chat about and encourage me to hold their new babies etc. It is really quite refreshing after getting some dodgy looks from older women in the UK shops when I buy children's clothes to send out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
    EVEL is undeliverable which is why the Tories aren't proposing it. Any English bill can still be defeated by the SNP under the current plans.

    There is no possibility of the Tories delivering a real EVEL when all other parties will vote against them guaranteed (except for 1 UKIP MP) and it only takes 12 Tories to defeat them.

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.
    EVEL may not allow a power to propose laws, but it does allow a veto power
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11737801/snp-to-vote-down-foxhunting-live.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will punish David Cameron for his English Votes for English Laws plan by allowing SNP MPs to vote at a crucial foxhunting debate tomorrow in a bid to “remind him of how slim a majority he has”.
    A principled stand by the SNP then, hope they wont be complaining if the government gives them a good kicking in due course to "remind them who has a majority"
    Except that Cameron has completely folded and let Sturgeon give him the dockyard hooker treatment.

    Pulling the vote seems to be the dumbest thing the Tories could have done. If there was a potential for a Tory victory** via an elephant trap - they just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

    ** and I think this is overstated and really unlikely.
    given the SNP put Cameron into power one does have to question who's getting the pounding

    #toriesweehelpers
    The SNP didn't create a voting system which gives an absolute majority to a party which can only scrape 37% of the vote. The lack of a Democracy in the United Kingdom put Cameron into power, nothing else.

    Although with Cameron hiding in Number 10, rocking back and forth as he realises so much of his policy will now go undelivered, it may be that this undemocratic, illegitimate anachronism will be giving the Tories a very large headache for the next five years.
    Yeah whatever, but Cameron sits in No 10 because of the SNP.



    More precisely, because of SNP hubris. Writing Labour's Budget were they? Genius.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    john_zims said:

    @Dair

    'Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.'

    The Tories set a trap and the SNP clowns walked in with both feet.

    Pure genius.

    They bottled pulling the lever. The trap was never triggered.

    Which pretty much proves that the "elephant trap" brigade were wrong from the start. If the trap was intended, it would have been triggered. As it was the Tories bottled it when they realised the SNP had sunk them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Plato said:

    I think this flushing out of the SNP has comprehensively strengthened the hand of EVELers.

    Up to now, the HMG have been all very consensual - perplexingly so to some of us. Now BANG - we get a dead fox on the table, the SNP outed as breaking their own self-denying ordinance and the Tories can now say

    "Sorry, we were willing to work with the members for Scotland here - but this clearly isn't workable in practice - here's a rule change that enshrines EVEL from first reading to final vote."

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
    We shall see
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    isam said:

    Nate Silvers pre election forecast....

    https://twitter.com/mrsteerpike/status/620907237729419265

    Well he wasn't the only person that got it wrong. If the BBC 'didn't want us to see it though', they could request 'UK Election 2015' take the video down from Youtube.

    "Could it be that the BBC no longer want viewers to see the episode which predicted the wrong result?"

    QTWTAIN:

    "I think you'll find the BBC take down most programmes from iPlayer within about a month of transmission."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
    EVEL is undeliverable which is why the Tories aren't proposing it. Any English bill can still be defeated by the SNP under the current plans.

    There is no possibility of the Tories delivering a real EVEL when all other parties will vote against them guaranteed (except for 1 UKIP MP) and it only takes 12 Tories to defeat them.

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.
    Are you trying to convince us, or yourself?

    FWIW, any reasonable EVEL proposal will pass the HoC easily. Not only do the Tories hold an overall majority, but there will be plenty in the Labour Party who agree.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    FalseFlag said:

    Of course gay men discriminate like crazy against women in the fashion world but oddly this never seems to be brought up. Rare is the woman who wouldn't love to forge a career in fashion.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/08/fashion/thursdaystyles/in-fashion-who-really-gets-ahead.html

    Sacha Baron Cohen worked as a fashion model after college and Bruno is a delightful send up of the type of people in the fashion industry.

    "Rare is the woman who wouldn't love to forge a career in fashion."

    You really make this shit up, don't you?
    I recommend you watch this video, it's all about the cold hard scientific differences, including an appearance by Sacha Baron Cohen's brother, between men and women presented by a top Norwegian comedian. Not someone or something you would find on the BBC.

    https://youtu.be/p5LRdW8xw70

    Men and women are complimentary not interchangeable. That Soviet concept has long been discredited.

    You might learn something if you weren't so closed minded.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    HYUFD said:

    Dair said:


    EVEL is undeliverable which is why the Tories aren't proposing it. Any English bill can still be defeated by the SNP under the current plans.

    There is no possibility of the Tories delivering a real EVEL when all other parties will vote against them guaranteed (except for 1 UKIP MP) and it only takes 12 Tories to defeat them.

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.

    EVEL may not allow a power to propose laws, but it does allow a veto power
    And a Veto is virtually meaningless in this situation.

    A Veto would only be effective if there was a mechanism for the SNP or Labour to propose Laws which would be supported by the House. But there is already an effective Veto for any government - they can talk any opposition bill down already.

    Unless the Tories want to Veto their own laws, the only use for this Veto is for amendments and they might find that not accepting amendments loses most of these bills.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11737801/snp-to-vote-down-foxhunting-live.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will punish David Cameron for his English Votes for English Laws plan by allowing SNP MPs to vote at a crucial foxhunting debate tomorrow in a bid to “remind him of how slim a majority he has”.
    A principled stand by the SNP then, hope they wont be complaining if the government gives them a good kicking in due course to "remind them who has a majority"
    Except that Cameron has completely folded and let Sturgeon give him the dockyard hooker treatment.

    Pulling the vote seems to be the dumbest thing the Tories could have done. If there was a potential for a Tory victory** via an elephant trap - they just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

    ** and I think this is overstated and really unlikely.
    given the SNP put Cameron into power one does have to question who's getting the pounding

    #toriesweehelpers
    The SNP didn't create a voting system which gives an absolute majority to a party which can only scrape 37% of the vote. The lack of a Democracy in the United Kingdom put Cameron into power, nothing else.

    Although with Cameron hiding in Number 10, rocking back and forth as he realises so much of his policy will now go undelivered, it may be that this undemocratic, illegitimate anachronism will be giving the Tories a very large headache for the next five years.
    Yeah whatever, but Cameron sits in No 10 because of the SNP.

    Yes. Sits there terrified of putting manifesto commitments to a vote in the Commons.

    You mean has the luxury of picking his moment when he will win a vote on ground of his choosing.

    Meanwhile the neutered 56 moan and try to think of some distraction in the hope that no-one notices the oil price post the Iran deal.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
    EVEL is undeliverable which is why the Tories aren't proposing it. Any English bill can still be defeated by the SNP under the current plans.

    There is no possibility of the Tories delivering a real EVEL when all other parties will vote against them guaranteed (except for 1 UKIP MP) and it only takes 12 Tories to defeat them.

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.
    BBC

    "The government now plans to tighten up restrictions on Scottish MPs voting on matters in England and Wales before holding a vote on hunting regulations."

    Nats seem to have signed a warrant to slice away a big part of their influence. Turkeys have brought Xmas forward and not a single fox saved.

    Crazy to play a card when not required to - crazy.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Dair

    'Which pretty much proves that the "elephant trap" brigade were wrong from the start. If the trap was intended, it would have been triggered. As it was the Tories bottled it when they realised the SNP had sunk them.'

    It just proves that Sturgeon lies and cannot be trusted and we need a much stronger version of EVEL.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
    A future government will require an English majority to pass most laws, so a "useful vote" for Scottish Labour will be pointless, Scottish MP elections will be less consequential, and it's hard to see how a Scot can be PM.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:


    EVEL is undeliverable which is why the Tories aren't proposing it. Any English bill can still be defeated by the SNP under the current plans.

    There is no possibility of the Tories delivering a real EVEL when all other parties will vote against them guaranteed (except for 1 UKIP MP) and it only takes 12 Tories to defeat them.

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.

    Are you trying to convince us, or yourself?

    FWIW, any reasonable EVEL proposal will pass the HoC easily. Not only do the Tories hold an overall majority, but there will be plenty in the Labour Party who agree.
    Iain Stewart was on Daily Politics not 30 minutes ago saying he would not support any strengthening of the current EVEL proposals.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited July 2015
    @EPG

    'A future government will require an English majority to pass most laws, so a "useful vote" for Scottish Labour will be pointless, Scottish MP elections will be less consequential, and it's hard to see how a Scot can be PM.'

    So that's a win win.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    Plato said:

    Paying £850m towards Greece's basketcase economy has irked a great number of people who were previously Inners or not that fussed before.

    That I can see having another one-more-heave impact on the polling.

    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to see some new polling on the EU referendum question to see whether the Greece situation has had any impact on opinion.

    The two most recent polls are from ORB showing In leading 55/45 and Yougov 44/38, but those are from the end of June.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    @Sean_F I'd be surprised too, but when I mean 'normalise', I mean that it should be just as socially acceptable as a mother staying at home. As JosiasJessop said previously, there appears to be this idea that being a stay-at-home dad makes a man 'less of man', and an aura of suspicion around men as carers. If the idea of men as carers is something that becomes just as normal as a woman being a carer, then I think it will pave the way for a change of attitude in things such as family courts.

    It appears that society is headed in the opposite direction at the moment, Rotherham and the various pedo scandals that will be in the headlines for several years to come will see to that. I was a house husband for several years and home schooled one of our children full time for four years, I enjoyed it immensely but caused a lot of "domestic" issues.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    watford30 said:

    Top BBC stars' pay rises by more than 20% and Staff numbers rose by 1.7% to 18,974

    I thought they were supposed to be cutting back?

    They probably are, but on production. Less than 50% of their budget is spent on programmes.
    Yep. Only make cuts to the frontline stuff, that way you can parade your bleeding stumps and whip public opinion up against cuts. That's the nature of state ownership, unless you have an incredibly selfless public service ethos throughout the organisation which probably hasn't existed since the 50's. The 1850's.
    Isn't it the same in the private sector? Top executive pay goes up and up. More people get called Managers. And customers have to pay more if they want the shiny new widget.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    john_zims said:

    @Dair

    'Which pretty much proves that the "elephant trap" brigade were wrong from the start. If the trap was intended, it would have been triggered. As it was the Tories bottled it when they realised the SNP had sunk them.'

    It just proves that Sturgeon lies and cannot be trusted and we need a much stronger version of EVEL.

    Indeed - but there was a small win for Nic today - she distracted the media away from her corrupt, inept police system and the useless education system in Scotland - so she will be happy.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11737801/snp-to-vote-down-foxhunting-live.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will punish David Cameron for his English Votes for English Laws plan by allowing SNP MPs to vote at a crucial foxhunting debate tomorrow in a bid to “remind him of how slim a majority he has”.
    A principled stand by the SNP then, hope they wont be complaining if the government gives them a good kicking in due course to "remind them who has a majority"
    Except that Cameron has completely folded and let Sturgeon give him the dockyard hooker treatment.

    Pulling the vote seems to be the dumbest thing the Tories could have done. If there was a potential for a Tory victory** via an elephant trap - they just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

    ** and I think this is overstated and really unlikely.
    given the SNP put Cameron into power one does have to question who's getting the pounding

    #toriesweehelpers
    The SNP didn't create a voting system which gives an absolute majority to a party which can only scrape 37% of the vote. The lack of a Democracy in the United Kingdom put Cameron into power, nothing else.

    Although with Cameron hiding in Number 10, rocking back and forth as he realises so much of his policy will now go undelivered, it may be that this undemocratic, illegitimate anachronism will be giving the Tories a very large headache for the next five years.
    Yeah whatever, but Cameron sits in No 10 because of the SNP.

    Yes. Sits there terrified of putting manifesto commitments to a vote in the Commons.
    Meanwhile the neutered 56 moan and try to think of some distraction in the hope that no-one notices the oil price post the Iran deal.
    Whats $1.74 off the futures price in terms of welfare cuts?
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Alanbrooke

    'Meanwhile the neutered 56 moan and try to think of some distraction in the hope that no-one notices the oil price post the Iran deal.'

    Don't be so unkind they are 56 useful idiots.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @daily_politics: Conservative MP @iainastewart speaking to @Jo_Coburn about SNP's stance on fox hunting. #bbcdp http://t.co/rwJLrKYjm3
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
    EVEL is undeliverable which is why the Tories aren't proposing it. Any English bill can still be defeated by the SNP under the current plans.

    There is no possibility of the Tories delivering a real EVEL when all other parties will vote against them guaranteed (except for 1 UKIP MP) and it only takes 12 Tories to defeat them.

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.
    Turkeys have brought Xmas forward
    That always works out well for them.....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Dair said:

    Dair said:


    EVEL is undeliverable which is why the Tories aren't proposing it. Any English bill can still be defeated by the SNP under the current plans.

    There is no possibility of the Tories delivering a real EVEL when all other parties will vote against them guaranteed (except for 1 UKIP MP) and it only takes 12 Tories to defeat them.

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.

    Are you trying to convince us, or yourself?

    FWIW, any reasonable EVEL proposal will pass the HoC easily. Not only do the Tories hold an overall majority, but there will be plenty in the Labour Party who agree.
    Iain Stewart was on Daily Politics not 30 minutes ago saying he would not support any strengthening of the current EVEL proposals.
    Wow. You're right. Case closed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509
    edited July 2015
    FalseFlag said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Of course gay men discriminate like crazy against women in the fashion world but oddly this never seems to be brought up. Rare is the woman who wouldn't love to forge a career in fashion.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/08/fashion/thursdaystyles/in-fashion-who-really-gets-ahead.html

    Sacha Baron Cohen worked as a fashion model after college and Bruno is a delightful send up of the type of people in the fashion industry.

    "Rare is the woman who wouldn't love to forge a career in fashion."

    You really make this shit up, don't you?
    (snip)

    Men and women are complimentary not interchangeable. That Soviet concept has long been discredited.

    You might learn something if you weren't so closed minded.
    I never said men and women are interchangeable. I could not carry a baby to term for one thing.

    But just because there are differences, does not mean that we need to restrict based on those differences, unless those differences really matter. Most of the time they do not.

    The only person being stupidly and pathetically close-minded on here is you. As usual.

    I would suggest you grow up.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11737801/snp-to-vote-down-foxhunting-live.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will punish David Cameron for his English Votes for English Laws plan by allowing SNP MPs to vote at a crucial foxhunting debate tomorrow in a bid to “remind him of how slim a majority he has”.
    A principled stand by the SNP then, hope they wont be complaining if the government gives them a good kicking in due course to "remind them who has a majority"
    Except that Cameron has completely folded and let Sturgeon give him the dockyard hooker treatment.

    Pulling the vote seems to be the dumbest thing the Tories could have done. If there was a potential for a Tory victory** via an elephant trap - they just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

    ** and I think this is overstated and really unlikely.
    given the SNP put Cameron into power one does have to question who's getting the pounding

    #toriesweehelpers
    The SNP didn't create a voting system which gives an absolute majority to a party which can only scrape 37% of the vote. The lack of a Democracy in the United Kingdom put Cameron into power, nothing else.

    Although with Cameron hiding in Number 10, rocking back and forth as he realises so much of his policy will now go undelivered, it may be that this undemocratic, illegitimate anachronism will be giving the Tories a very large headache for the next five years.
    Yeah whatever, but Cameron sits in No 10 because of the SNP.

    Yes. Sits there terrified of putting manifesto commitments to a vote in the Commons.
    Meanwhile the neutered 56 moan and try to think of some distraction in the hope that no-one notices the oil price post the Iran deal.
    Whats $1.74 off the futures price in terms of welfare cuts?


    I suppose they'd better ask Wolfgang Schauble. :-)

    #Toptable

    LOL
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,885
    Plato said:

    Paying £850m towards Greece's basketcase economy has irked a great number of people who were previously Inners or not that fussed before.

    That I can see having another one-more-heave impact on the polling.

    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to see some new polling on the EU referendum question to see whether the Greece situation has had any impact on opinion.

    Is that how much we're getting charged? FFS, we're not even in the bloody euro.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509
    Indigo said:

    @Sean_F I'd be surprised too, but when I mean 'normalise', I mean that it should be just as socially acceptable as a mother staying at home. As JosiasJessop said previously, there appears to be this idea that being a stay-at-home dad makes a man 'less of man', and an aura of suspicion around men as carers. If the idea of men as carers is something that becomes just as normal as a woman being a carer, then I think it will pave the way for a change of attitude in things such as family courts.

    It appears that society is headed in the opposite direction at the moment, Rotherham and the various pedo scandals that will be in the headlines for several years to come will see to that. I was a house husband for several years and home schooled one of our children full time for four years, I enjoyed it immensely but caused a lot of "domestic" issues.
    I have a little more confidence than you that we are heading in a better direction that that. But we shall see.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    john_zims said:

    @EPG

    'A future government will require an English majority to pass most laws, so a "useful vote" for Scottish Labour will be pointless, Scottish MP elections will be less consequential, and it's hard to see how a Scot can be PM.'

    So that's a win win.

    Yes! Good way of putting it. It's a win-win for both England and Scotland nats. Alex Massie on the Spectator website is correct. I called it too, yesterday evening. Actually, it is hard to see who loses apart from hunts, but vis a vis the Tories, hunts have nowhere else to go.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Nate Silvers pre election forecast....

    https://twitter.com/mrsteerpike/status/620907237729419265

    Well he wasn't the only person that got it wrong. If the BBC 'didn't want us to see it though', they could request 'UK Election 2015' take the video down from Youtube.

    "Could it be that the BBC no longer want viewers to see the episode which predicted the wrong result?"

    QTWTAIN:

    "I think you'll find the BBC take down most programmes from iPlayer within about a month of transmission."
    Silver did predict the Tories would be largest party though
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    She'd hate Manor Royal in Crawley - almost every road on that giant ind estate is named after some historically significant scientist and they're almost all male - I think Marie Curie has an avenue.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    EPG said:

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Triumph for the SNP: they look like the pivotal progressive party in the UK, they get one over the majority Tory government to their Scottish supporters, and they raise the tension among English nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for the Conservatives: they look like they sincerely tried to ease hunting for their hunt supporters, they avoid debating it for months in front of their urban supporters, and they get more tense about Scots nats making EVEL more likely, driving another wedge between England and Scotland
    Triumph for foxes: they will be marginally safer than they would have been
    And well done to Labour too for passing such a sustainable compromise
    Nobody loses.

    EVEL was going to happen anyway, but I fail to see why it drives a wedge between England and Scotland. With Scotland getting more powers through the Scotland Bill had EVEL not been introduced English nationalism would have grown further
    A future government will require an English majority to pass most laws, so a "useful vote" for Scottish Labour will be pointless, Scottish MP elections will be less consequential, and it's hard to see how a Scot can be PM.
    Only because most domestic policy in Scotland is decided at Holyrood, that is an inevitable consequence of further devolution. Westminster elections in Scotland will still determine Federal issues like foreign policy and defence and some tax
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Bye bye New Horizons, was nice knowing you!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Plato said:

    Paying £850m towards Greece's basketcase economy has irked a great number of people who were previously Inners or not that fussed before.

    That I can see having another one-more-heave impact on the polling.

    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to see some new polling on the EU referendum question to see whether the Greece situation has had any impact on opinion.

    If Cameron had any sense he'd propose GIVING the £850m to Greece and demand the rest of Europe do the same .

    Germany might just explode.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dair said:


    EVEL is undeliverable which is why the Tories aren't proposing it. Any English bill can still be defeated by the SNP under the current plans.

    There is no possibility of the Tories delivering a real EVEL when all other parties will vote against them guaranteed (except for 1 UKIP MP) and it only takes 12 Tories to defeat them.

    Cameron is bricking it right now. Pulling the fox hunting vote shows just how weak and worried he is.

    EVEL may not allow a power to propose laws, but it does allow a veto power
    And a Veto is virtually meaningless in this situation.

    A Veto would only be effective if there was a mechanism for the SNP or Labour to propose Laws which would be supported by the House. But there is already an effective Veto for any government - they can talk any opposition bill down already.

    Unless the Tories want to Veto their own laws, the only use for this Veto is for amendments and they might find that not accepting amendments loses most of these bills.
    In a future parliament where Scottish MPs were to hold the balance of power a veto would ensure they had to amend legislation to get an English majority where it affected only England
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Luckyguy1983

    'Is that how much we're getting charged? FFS, we're not even in the bloody euro.'

    If it happens it's great timing for the No campaign and proves that agreements with the EU are completely worthless.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,338
    dr_spyn said:

    BBC using phrase 'Asian women' in report on honour killings.

    I'm not normally a fan of Yasmin Alibhai Brown but there is a very good (and harrowing) article by her in this weekend's Sunday Times magazine on the abuse suffered by girls and some me (principally gay men) in the Asian community. She writes about how she has tried to help some individuals.

    So-called "honour" killings are the least of it, frankly.

    All those who think that one should make allowances for other people's "culture" should read it.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ozzie is saying he won't - it's a great big tussle ahead no matter what the outcome.
    john_zims said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    'Is that how much we're getting charged? FFS, we're not even in the bloody euro.'

    If it happens it's great timing for the No campaign and proves that agreements with the EU are completely worthless.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    RobD said:

    Bye bye New Horizons, was nice knowing you!

    It's going to have a look at a Kuiper Belt object next:

    http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/10151024-finally-new-horizons-has-a-kbo.html
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Govt withdraws the fox hunting vote.

    Powerless Nats humiliated.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    EPG said:

    watford30 said:

    Top BBC stars' pay rises by more than 20% and Staff numbers rose by 1.7% to 18,974

    I thought they were supposed to be cutting back?

    They probably are, but on production. Less than 50% of their budget is spent on programmes.
    Yep. Only make cuts to the frontline stuff, that way you can parade your bleeding stumps and whip public opinion up against cuts. That's the nature of state ownership, unless you have an incredibly selfless public service ethos throughout the organisation which probably hasn't existed since the 50's. The 1850's.
    Isn't it the same in the private sector? Top executive pay goes up and up. More people get called Managers. And customers have to pay more if they want the shiny new widget.
    I do have some experience of senior level management in local government. It is extraordinary that in a time of plenty, all budgets were constantly under pressure, despite massive increases in cost, with next to no impact on service delivery.

    Now we have witnessed base budget reductions of over a third, and barely a thing has changed with service delivery. Interesting though that in the time of plenty whenever there was a demand to hold back budget increases, the first things offered for budget reductions were public toilets and grass cuttings.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Plato said:

    Ozzie is saying he won't - it's a great big tussle ahead no matter what the outcome.

    john_zims said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    'Is that how much we're getting charged? FFS, we're not even in the bloody euro.'

    If it happens it's great timing for the No campaign and proves that agreements with the EU are completely worthless.

    LOL Ozzie says and Ozzie does, two completely different things.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Alistair said:

    Govt withdraws the fox hunting vote.

    Powerless Nats humiliated.
    Pissed Glaswegians looking a fight can't get one - meanwhile the world goes on.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    john_zims said:

    @Alanbrooke

    'Meanwhile the neutered 56 moan and try to think of some distraction in the hope that no-one notices the oil price post the Iran deal.'

    Don't be so unkind they are 56 useful idiots.

    Who have just proved that the SNP's word counts for nothing. Genius.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11737801/snp-to-vote-down-foxhunting-live.html

    Nicola Sturgeon will punish David Cameron for his English Votes for English Laws plan by allowing SNP MPs to vote at a crucial foxhunting debate tomorrow in a bid to “remind him of how slim a majority he has”.
    A principled stand by the SNP then, hope they wont be complaining if the government gives them a good kicking in due course to "remind them who has a majority"
    Except that Cameron has completely folded and let Sturgeon give him the dockyard hooker treatment.

    Pulling the vote seems to be the dumbest thing the Tories could have done. If there was a potential for a Tory victory** via an elephant trap - they just pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.

    ** and I think this is overstated and really unlikely.
    given the SNP put Cameron into power one does have to question who's getting the pounding

    #toriesweehelpers
    The SNP didn't create a voting system which gives an absolute majority to a party which can only scrape 37% of the vote. The lack of a Democracy in the United Kingdom put Cameron into power, nothing else.

    Although with Cameron hiding in Number 10, rocking back and forth as he realises so much of his policy will now go undelivered, it may be that this undemocratic, illegitimate anachronism will be giving the Tories a very large headache for the next five years.
    Yeah whatever, but Cameron sits in No 10 because of the SNP.

    Yes. Sits there terrified of putting manifesto commitments to a vote in the Commons.
    You mean has the luxury of picking his moment when he will win a vote on ground of his choosing.

    Meanwhile the neutered 56 moan and try to think of some distraction in the hope that no-one notices the oil price post the Iran deal.

    Maggie always picked her battles, ask those minors jubilant in beating her in 1981.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Alistair said:

    Govt withdraws the fox hunting vote.

    Powerless Nats humiliated.
    I can only think that the reason they played their card now for no gain is to distract from the police Scotland car fiasco ? Otherwise it seems a waste of leverage.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    antifrank said:

    RobD said:

    Bye bye New Horizons, was nice knowing you!

    It's going to have a look at a Kuiper Belt object next:

    http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/10151024-finally-new-horizons-has-a-kbo.html
    Nice! Only three years to wait :D
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    Plato said:

    Ozzie is saying he won't - it's a great big tussle ahead no matter what the outcome.

    john_zims said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    'Is that how much we're getting charged? FFS, we're not even in the bloody euro.'

    If it happens it's great timing for the No campaign and proves that agreements with the EU are completely worthless.

    LOL Ozzie says and Ozzie does, two completely different things.
    You need to show our future Prime Minister some respect.

    Last week he was awesome as Caesar at Dyrrhachium with his living wage plan Just setting up his opponents for their Pharsalus
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @notme

    'Now we have witnessed base budget reductions of over a third, and barely a thing has changed with service delivery'

    There was a poll a couple of years with 30% of council taxpayers in Dorset saying that services had improved.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Quite!

    Alistair said:

    Govt withdraws the fox hunting vote.

    Powerless Nats humiliated.
    Pissed Glaswegians looking a fight can't get one - meanwhile the world goes on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Nate Silvers pre election forecast....

    https://twitter.com/mrsteerpike/status/620907237729419265

    Well he wasn't the only person that got it wrong. If the BBC 'didn't want us to see it though', they could request 'UK Election 2015' take the video down from Youtube.

    "Could it be that the BBC no longer want viewers to see the episode which predicted the wrong result?"

    QTWTAIN:

    "I think you'll find the BBC take down most programmes from iPlayer within about a month of transmission."
    Silver did predict the Tories would be largest party though
    Colour me unimpressed by that nugget....
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    edited July 2015
    If the hunting ban applies to both England & Wales (what is the situation in Northern Ireland?) then surely it can't be an EVEL matter. Unless there is also going to be an EWVEWL arrangement?!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @georgiekeate: Death of Lamara Bell prompts deeper questions over Police Scotland's operations and accountability http://t.co/b2w07MxXB2 @KennyFarq

    Look, squirrel FOX!
  • http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/07/scott-walker-and-2016-race

    O/T:

    I think Scott Walker is increasingly becoming the Dems/Hillary's favourite top-tier GOP candidate. He's well to the right of the centre ground, and in a general election I think he'd struggle to carry his own state let alone other swing states like Colorado.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I saw in The Times that the DUP offered to support HMG on foxies.

    If the hunting ban applies to both England & Wales (what is the situation in Northern Ireland?) then surely it can't be an EVEL matter. Unless there is also going to be an EWVEWL arrangement?!

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Scott_P said:

    @georgiekeate: Death of Lamara Bell prompts deeper questions over Police Scotland's operations and accountability http://t.co/b2w07MxXB2 @KennyFarq

    Look, squirrel FOX!

    Bonkers to think they were left for three days despite someone calling it in!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    *** Personal Announcment ***

    For the past 6 years I have been studying part-time with the OU. I am now delighted to report that I have been awarded a degree - a BA in PPE.

    So all of those PBers who pour scorn on PPE wonks can now direct some of their bile in my direction!

    Oh, and if anyone is looking for a SPAD - you know where to find me!

    Congratulation - but I did not know that the OU offered PPE!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/07/scott-walker-and-2016-race

    O/T:

    I think Scott Walker is increasingly becoming the Dems/Hillary's favourite top-tier GOP candidate. He's well to the right of the centre ground, and in a general election I think he'd struggle to carry his own state let alone other swing states like Colorado.

    Short of Cruz and Trump, probably right
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    If the hunting ban applies to both England & Wales (what is the situation in Northern Ireland?) then surely it can't be an EVEL matter. Unless there is also going to be an EWVEWL arrangement?!

    Apparently, there is:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/444906/English_Votes_for_English_Laws_-_Revised_Proposed_Changes_to_Standing_Orders.pdf
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    RobD said:

    Bye bye New Horizons, was nice knowing you!


    For a moment there, I wondered which Greek political party were "New Horizons" and what had happened to them.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003

    If the hunting ban applies to both England & Wales (what is the situation in Northern Ireland?) then surely it can't be an EVEL matter. Unless there is also going to be an EWVEWL arrangement?!

    I believe there is on matters affecting both England and Wales
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Nate Silvers pre election forecast....

    https://twitter.com/mrsteerpike/status/620907237729419265

    Well he wasn't the only person that got it wrong. If the BBC 'didn't want us to see it though', they could request 'UK Election 2015' take the video down from Youtube.

    "Could it be that the BBC no longer want viewers to see the episode which predicted the wrong result?"

    QTWTAIN:

    "I think you'll find the BBC take down most programmes from iPlayer within about a month of transmission."
    Silver did predict the Tories would be largest party though
    Colour me unimpressed by that nugget....
    He failed to predict a Tory majority like everyone else but he certainly was not predicting Ed M would be PM either
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. Eagles, that does depend on Labour being as daft as Pompey.

    ....

    To be honest, Pompey would be a great improvement over the assorted offerings for the Labour leadership. Kendall seems sound albeit uninspiring.
  • HYUFD said:

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/07/scott-walker-and-2016-race

    O/T:

    I think Scott Walker is increasingly becoming the Dems/Hillary's favourite top-tier GOP candidate. He's well to the right of the centre ground, and in a general election I think he'd struggle to carry his own state let alone other swing states like Colorado.

    Short of Cruz and Trump, probably right
    Cruz is probably a tier-2 candidate, solid base but not much beyond that. Trump is the Herman Cain of 2016 in some ways, if he's in that first FOX debate it'll be interesting viewing to say the least!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And the pair being reported missing just down the road, the day after the accident IIRC.
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @georgiekeate: Death of Lamara Bell prompts deeper questions over Police Scotland's operations and accountability http://t.co/b2w07MxXB2 @KennyFarq

    Look, squirrel FOX!

    Bonkers to think they were left for three days despite someone calling it in!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited July 2015
    Cyclefree said:

    dr_spyn said:

    BBC using phrase 'Asian women' in report on honour killings.

    I'm not normally a fan of Yasmin Alibhai Brown but there is a very good (and harrowing) article by her in this weekend's Sunday Times magazine on the abuse suffered by girls and some me (principally gay men) in the Asian community. She writes about how she has tried to help some individuals.

    So-called "honour" killings are the least of it, frankly.

    All those who think that one should make allowances for other people's "culture" should read it.

    We should make allowance for other people's culture, when they are living in their own country

    That's what is ridiculous about the modern west. We don't make allowances for what people think & do their own countries and start wars to force change, but refuse to say anything when it happens in our country for fear of offending


    Worst of both worlds
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @georgiekeate: Death of Lamara Bell prompts deeper questions over Police Scotland's operations and accountability http://t.co/b2w07MxXB2 @KennyFarq

    Look, squirrel FOX!

    Bonkers to think they were left for three days despite someone calling it in!
    Police Scotland - a farce, not a Force. But it's really no surprise when you look at which party is in power.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Plato said:

    And the pair being reported missing just down the road, the day after the accident IIRC.

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @georgiekeate: Death of Lamara Bell prompts deeper questions over Police Scotland's operations and accountability http://t.co/b2w07MxXB2 @KennyFarq

    Look, squirrel FOX!

    Bonkers to think they were left for three days despite someone calling it in!
    More understandable if that had been the only call they had received, since nothing would be pointing to that particular stretch of road. Yet someone actually phoned up and said a car had gone down that embankment, and nothing was done.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    Plato said:

    Ozzie is saying he won't - it's a great big tussle ahead no matter what the outcome.

    john_zims said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    'Is that how much we're getting charged? FFS, we're not even in the bloody euro.'

    If it happens it's great timing for the No campaign and proves that agreements with the EU are completely worthless.

    LOL Ozzie says and Ozzie does, two completely different things.
    You need to show our future Prime Minister some respect.

    Last week he was awesome as Caesar at Dyrrhachium with his living wage plan Just setting up his opponents for their Pharsalus
    But I do show him respect he only lives two constiuencies away in Bromsgrove.

    As for GO it's Julius in a cocktail dress praying Hannibal's not down the dockside.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited July 2015
    watford30 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @georgiekeate: Death of Lamara Bell prompts deeper questions over Police Scotland's operations and accountability http://t.co/b2w07MxXB2 @KennyFarq

    Look, squirrel FOX!

    Bonkers to think they were left for three days despite someone calling it in!
    Police Scotland - a farce, not a Force. But it's really no surprise when you look at which party is in power.
    If only the people in the car had been singing the Hokey Cokey or a naughty football song - the Jock plod would have been there in seconds...

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