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  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,338
    HYUFD said:

    To give you a sense of the sheer madness of ISIS there is this observation of '...the dull thump heavy rocks make as they hit the flesh of a woman being stoned to death by a group of religious zealots led by her own father.'
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/arts/television/9577492/dispatchess-secret-footage-inside-isis-is-ghastly-but-unmissable-says-james-delingpole/

    This isn't the madness of just ISIS. No less a figure than a Professor Tariq Ramadan, professor of Islamic studies at Oxford University famously refused in a debate with Sarkozy to condemn the stoning of women for adultery.

    Paul Berman and Caroline Fournier have exposed him as someone who poses as as a liberal but who in his writings and sayings is anything but.
    HYUFD said:

    Adulterers, petty thieves, magicians, women, blasphemers, heathens, homosexuals, Syrian soldiers, Kurds, Yazidis, Shias, western tourists, ISIS will butcher them all given the chance

    ISIS will butcher anyone who isn't with them.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,338

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    As someone who is a Pro-EU chap, I have to admit this has not been the finest moment for the British Pro-EU movement.

    Even I'm having my doubts, and can see a lot of my left wing turning into committed outers.

    I've gone from being 90% certain to voting for IN to maybe 60% certain.
    Encouraging. I hope we Outers can continue to have a conversation to (perhaps) persuade you.
    1) Don't use Farage to try persuade me

    2) Show me the economic case for withdrawing from the EU rather than staying in

    3) Don't try and use UKIP's culture wars argument for withdrawal

    And I might vote OUT.
    (1) I won't
    (2) I will
    (3) I think it's solely about British democracy. Immigration is one obvious part of that, but I think it's counterproductive to use it to create dividing lines.

    Thanks for the tips.
    Number 2 is what has always been crucial to how I was planning to vote, up to the last week, I was sure remaining in the EU was in the country's best economic interest, but now I'm not sure.
    That is relevant to me too but self-government and the bad faith of the EU are pretty high on my list. Self-government is the key for me. I like the European ideal of co-operation, making war unthinkable etc but democracy matters more.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161
    edited July 2015

    Oliver_PB said:

    The priorities for the Conservative Party since the election:

    1. Private Royal Mail

    2. Remove support for the poorest at University

    3. Gut the BBC

    4. Cut Corporation Tax

    5. Remove tax credits to push children into poverty

    Labour need to learn from the Conservatives and let their manifesto have no reflection to their actual beliefs.

    Of course, none of this should be be any surprised when you consider the type of highly privileged sociopaths that would join the Conservative Party in the 80s and 90s. They fundamentally believe they are superior to the poor, in the same mindset that led to slavery.

    The Tory/"libertarian" dream is for children to grow up in poverty, inevitably neglected by parents who have to force two jobs to make ends meet, have no state whatsoever support after 18, if they have the good fortune to go to university then force them into a lifetime of debt, then a lifetime of unskilled-or-semi-skilled servitude to the super-rich who control giant corporations in near poverty.

    Then claim that's "freedom" and "liberty" and those people refused to "do the right thing".

    Bloody hell those Tory proposals give me the horn.
    The hunting horn presumably.

    Apropos of not much, I seem to recall that Proust described a young woman as having tits like hunting horns.
    As hard as I try, hunting does nothing for me, either way.
    The harder you try, the further away from you it's slipping?
    Looks like TSE missed my subtle pop music reference :lol:
    After realising there are several other Bros fans on PB, I have Bros on the brain
    Brother Beyond



  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:


    The Italian cover is pretty. Perhaps overly so

    Yes, too pretty, and not bleak enough for Torran.
    Yep.

    Better than the boring US cover tho (where the book has not done any business at all).

    And, of course, each market is different. My agent warns me not to interfere with foreign covers (I take a stance on UK covers, and occasionally American ones) - because the local publishers understand much better than me what imagery sells in their market.

    Does it mention soccer? ;)
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    SeanT said:

    Also the French are clever. Yes. The French.

    http://www.babelio.com/livres/Tremayne-Le-doute/726414/critiques

    Interesting change of title.
    Think I prefer it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,571
    Since messing about with the hunitng ban is so unpopular, the decision also helps detoxify the SNP and thereby weakens the EVEL case. "That wicked Sturgeon might stop us tearing foxes apart!" is a bit short of electoral appeal.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:


    The Italian cover is pretty. Perhaps overly so

    Yes, too pretty, and not bleak enough for Torran.
    Yep.

    Better than the boring US cover tho (where the book has not done any business at all).

    And, of course, each market is different. My agent warns me not to interfere with foreign covers (I take a stance on UK covers, and occasionally American ones) - because the local publishers understand much better than me what imagery sells in their market.

    Does it mention soccer? ;)
    No. Lacrosse.

    ;)
    It'll do well in Canada then - it's their 'official' national sport
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited July 2015
    SeanT said:

    Much better to continue the Salmond strategy of slow and stealthy accretion of powers. Take the Devomax, show you can govern

    Except they haven't shown that, at all. Pretty much every area where the SNP have launched a distinctive policy in Scotland has been a disaster
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Scott Walker must be for real then - Hillary attacked him by name today.

    I enjoyed his single No Regrets......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xcRE_XoPT0
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    opposition politicians are calling on ministers and the police watchdog to ensure that Police Scotland is doing its job properly.

    Mr Pearson said that the relationship between the government and the force needed new scrutiny. “Police Scotland is the SNP’s baby so they have to interfere. They said they wanted to depoliticise policing, which is why there is such a strong, centralised force, but each time there is a critical incident, a minister interferes. They’re just covering their own backs.”
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4497050.ece
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,571
    Cyclefree said:



    That is relevant to me too but self-government and the bad faith of the EU are pretty high on my list. Self-government is the key for me. I like the European ideal of co-operation, making war unthinkable etc but democracy matters more.

    Sefl-government matters more than making war unthinkable?
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Sturgeon told me before the election the SNP would not deliberately antagonise England. #foxhunting decision somewhat questions that promise

    Not at all. The SNP are helping deliver majority English opinion, as are the 40 or so Tories committed to vote against the change. It's a good example of British cooperation. :-)
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited July 2015
    An interesting modification of your previous straight anti-conservative claim, once it was shown to be nonsense.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2015

    JEO said:

    1) We are completely at the mercy of economic decisions taken by the Eurogroup, as they can then vote through the wider EU on QMV easily. It will be essential for the EU to change to a system where you need to get a double majority of both Euro and non-Euro nations.

    2) The EU can not be trusted to stick to signed agreements with the UK, and only full treaty change will be acceptable in the renegotiation.

    The first suggestion would require treaty change under the ordinary revision procedure (TEU, art 48(1)). That requires a qualified majority in the Council to call an IGC, which must then unanimously agree treaty amendments, which must then be ratified by every member state in accordance with their constitutional requirements. That takes several years, and in any event, there is no chance of it being agreed.

    As for the second, why should the EU institutions be blamed for relying on their supposed rights under the treaties? The blame lies solely with Cameron. He settled for a gentleman's agreement when he had an unassailable opportunity to secure binding treaty change. He is either a fool or a fraud.
    If you want to create a new voting hurdle you could hack it on top without the full EU agreeing. Say Cameron wants a new arrangement where EU decisions about chickens can be vetoed by Prince Philip. If he can persude a blocking minority that this is a good principle, they can sign a treaty agreeing never to vote for anything chicken-related unless Prince Philip gives it the thumbs-up. It doesn't even have to be an EU treaty.

    I think the practical problem here is how you actually design the new rule. They can't just give the UK a veto because they have a history of holding things up at important times to impress domestic voters, but it's also hard to make a non-Eurozone blocking minority without knowing which countries will end up outside the Euro.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Cyclefree said:



    That is relevant to me too but self-government and the bad faith of the EU are pretty high on my list. Self-government is the key for me. I like the European ideal of co-operation, making war unthinkable etc but democracy matters more.

    Sefl-government matters more than making war unthinkable?
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Sturgeon told me before the election the SNP would not deliberately antagonise England. #foxhunting decision somewhat questions that promise

    Not at all. The SNP are helping deliver majority English opinion, as are the 40 or so Tories committed to vote against the change. It's a good example of British cooperation. :-)
    Nick, of course war has to be thinkable. As soon as it isn't, it become inevitable.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Cyclefree said:



    That is relevant to me too but self-government and the bad faith of the EU are pretty high on my list. Self-government is the key for me. I like the European ideal of co-operation, making war unthinkable etc but democracy matters more.

    Sefl-government matters more than making war unthinkable?
    Do you believe war is thinkable between the USA and Canada? Between New Zealand and Australia? Between Norway and Sweden?

    It's not the EU that makes war unthinkable, but all nations involved being democratic. Sadly, the EU seems to be intent on overriding democracy.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106



    Sefl-government matters more than making war unthinkable?

    As of 2015, yes.
    The erosion of self-government is an ongoing concern. We need to get the balance right between co-operation (good thing) and loss of sovereignty (bad thing)

    Making war unthinkable in Europe is yesterdays battle. It has been won.
    (Of course making war OUTSIDE Europe, as Blair did, is another matter) :-)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    To give you a sense of the sheer madness of ISIS there is this observation of '...the dull thump heavy rocks make as they hit the flesh of a woman being stoned to death by a group of religious zealots led by her own father.'
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/arts/television/9577492/dispatchess-secret-footage-inside-isis-is-ghastly-but-unmissable-says-james-delingpole/

    This isn't the madness of just ISIS. No less a figure than a Professor Tariq Ramadan, professor of Islamic studies at Oxford University famously refused in a debate with Sarkozy to condemn the stoning of women for adultery.

    Paul Berman and Caroline Fournier have exposed him as someone who poses as as a liberal but who in his writings and sayings is anything but.
    HYUFD said:

    Adulterers, petty thieves, magicians, women, blasphemers, heathens, homosexuals, Syrian soldiers, Kurds, Yazidis, Shias, western tourists, ISIS will butcher them all given the chance

    ISIS will butcher anyone who isn't with them.
    Indeed there is an element of Islam which is completely turned off from western values and much of what ISIS seeks to perpetrate is genocide
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Tim_B said:

    Scott Walker must be for real then - Hillary attacked him by name today.

    I enjoyed his single No Regrets......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xcRE_XoPT0

    Had not realized this is a Tom Rush song and that the Walker Brothers was a cover...
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Plato said:
    Isnt the 'paygap' one of those leftie fantasies? Any gap that exists is explained by:
    - women largely being the care giver for children and thus spend less time overall in full time employment
    - historical patterns from older generations.

    There is no gap for people in their 20s and 30s. Typical government, solve a problem that was solved ages ago and is just working through the system.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Tim_B said:

    Scott Walker must be for real then - Hillary attacked him by name today.

    I enjoyed his single No Regrets......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xcRE_XoPT0

    Tim_B said:

    Scott Walker must be for real then - Hillary attacked him by name today.

    I enjoyed his single No Regrets......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xcRE_XoPT0

    Yes, he does run the risk of some Walker brothers fans turning up at his rallies
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    To give you a sense of the sheer madness of ISIS there is this observation of '...the dull thump heavy rocks make as they hit the flesh of a woman being stoned to death by a group of religious zealots led by her own father.'
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/arts/television/9577492/dispatchess-secret-footage-inside-isis-is-ghastly-but-unmissable-says-james-delingpole/

    This isn't the madness of just ISIS. No less a figure than a Professor Tariq Ramadan, professor of Islamic studies at Oxford University famously refused in a debate with Sarkozy to condemn the stoning of women for adultery.

    Paul Berman and Caroline Fournier have exposed him as someone who poses as as a liberal but who in his writings and sayings is anything but.
    HYUFD said:

    Adulterers, petty thieves, magicians, women, blasphemers, heathens, homosexuals, Syrian soldiers, Kurds, Yazidis, Shias, western tourists, ISIS will butcher them all given the chance

    ISIS will butcher anyone who isn't with them.
    Indeed there is an element of Islam which is completely turned off from western values and much of what ISIS seeks to perpetrate is genocide
    There is more than a touch of the "Judean People's Front" (or People's Front of Judea) about ISIS, but unfortunately it's not remotely funny.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    notme said:



    There is no gap for people in their 20s and 30s. Typical government, solve a problem that was solved ages ago and is just working through the system.

    I think that the Tories are taking this "Adopt Labour Policy" strategy a bit too far now ....
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2015
    Ladies and Gentlemen, Donald Trump just won the GOP nomination I believe:

    http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/07/13/trump-calls-on-fbi-to-investigate-death-threats-tweets-from-man-claiming-to-be-notorious-drug-lord-el-charos-son/

    http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/13/escaped-mexican-drug-lord-threatens-trump-over-twitter/

    Trump will wear that as a shining badge all the way to his debates with Hillary, now he can silence all his opponents just by pointing that he's the only one been threatened to be assassinated by a notorious criminal because of his opinions on immigration.

    Goodnight.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    To give you a sense of the sheer madness of ISIS there is this observation of '...the dull thump heavy rocks make as they hit the flesh of a woman being stoned to death by a group of religious zealots led by her own father.'
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/arts/television/9577492/dispatchess-secret-footage-inside-isis-is-ghastly-but-unmissable-says-james-delingpole/

    This isn't the madness of just ISIS. No less a figure than a Professor Tariq Ramadan, professor of Islamic studies at Oxford University famously refused in a debate with Sarkozy to condemn the stoning of women for adultery.

    Paul Berman and Caroline Fournier have exposed him as someone who poses as as a liberal but who in his writings and sayings is anything but.
    HYUFD said:

    Adulterers, petty thieves, magicians, women, blasphemers, heathens, homosexuals, Syrian soldiers, Kurds, Yazidis, Shias, western tourists, ISIS will butcher them all given the chance

    ISIS will butcher anyone who isn't with them.
    Indeed there is an element of Islam which is completely turned off from western values and much of what ISIS seeks to perpetrate is genocide
    There is more than a touch of the "Judean People's Front" (or People's Front of Judea) about ISIS, but unfortunately it's not remotely funny.
    Indeed and while we can try and contain them it seems they will be around for a while to come
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    MTimT said:

    Tim_B said:

    Scott Walker must be for real then - Hillary attacked him by name today.

    I enjoyed his single No Regrets......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xcRE_XoPT0

    Had not realized this is a Tom Rush song and that the Walker Brothers was a cover...
    I hadn't realized either, but you are indeed correct....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Regrets_(Tom_Rush_song)
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @NickPalmer

    Since messing about with the hunitng ban is so unpopular, the decision also helps detoxify the SNP and thereby weakens the EVEL case. "That wicked Sturgeon might stop us tearing foxes apart!" is a bit short of electoral appeal.'

    What an idiotic comment.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited July 2015
    The problem was Cameron's, but thanks to this SNP PR stunt tonight, he just got his perfect get out of losing the vote card through a major technicality based on SNP spite.

    I suspect that the Government were always going to lose this vote on the Hunting Bill anyway, and because there were not nearly enough Conservative MP's who were going to support it. But thanks to the SNP's latest tactics, especially after Sturgeon's very public pledge earlier this year. It will now inevitable turn out to be a pyrrhic victory for the SNP while turning out to be a win win for Cameron on the issue of both fox hunting and EVEL's.

    What with the Labour party descending into civil war over the Welfare Bill tonight, its nots been a bad day at the Office for Cameron or Osborne today.
    SeanT said:

    At some point the Nats are going to over-reach and come very nastily unstuck. Stunts like this will then be remembered. Makes them look unserious.

    But for now the problem is Cameron's. If he can, he should withdraw the Bill, push through the EVEL legislation, then have another go when Scot Nat MPs are excluded.

    RobD said:

    Are the SNP going to outlaw fox hunting entirely north of the border, or at least bring it into line with the English position. Strange we've not heard any moves to tighten it up until now.

    SeanT said:

    "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as foxhunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that.."

    Nicola Sturgeon, writing in the Guardian, in February.

    This is a strategic error by the SNP. Throwing away serious principle for partisan gain.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/08/nicola-sturgeon-snp-mps-will-vote-on-english-issues

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited July 2015
    Who said this then?

    The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as foxhunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that. Where any issue is genuinely “English-only”, with no impact on Scotland, the case for Evel can be made.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/08/nicola-sturgeon-snp-mps-will-vote-on-english-issues
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424
    JEO said:

    Turns out it was Juncker that wants to rip up the agreement Cameron signed with the EU to exempt the UK from further bailouts:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11737286/EU-demands-Britain-joins-Greek-rescue-fund.html

    If the EU goes ahead with this, then it will show two things:

    1) We are completely at the mercy of economic decisions taken by the Eurogroup, as they can then vote through the wider EU on QMV easily. It will be essential for the EU to change to a system where you need to get a double majority of both Euro and non-Euro nations.

    2) The EU can not be trusted to stick to signed agreements with the UK, and only full treaty change will be acceptable in the renegotiation.

    ...and if it doesn't go ahead with this? Or if it does use the EXYZABC thingy but doesn't use UK funds?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    If EVEL, in whatever form, ever happens, the SNP will cry betrayal. Their actions tonight, of course, are designed to make EVEL — the thing they say they oppose — more, not less, likely. Never waste a crisis, of course, and never ignore the possibility of creating one either.

    As for the foxes, well, it’s got nothing to do with them. They’re just the useful vermin.


    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/07/tally-no-the-snp-are-setting-a-trap-for-the-tories-on-fox-hunting/
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424
    Disraeli said:

    Making war unthinkable in Europe is yesterdays battle. It has been won.

    No it hasn't. It never will be won. War is the way people use to resolve arguments when they care a lot about the outcome but can't agree. It was there when the first men picked up a rock and it will be there when the sun expands and the seas boil. The idea that war is some terribly retro idea that uz sofisticated modern people just don't do is fictional
    JEO said:

    Do you believe war is thinkable between the USA and Canada? Between New Zealand and Australia? Between Norway and Sweden?.

    Laura Secord is on the phone. She wants to talk with you.

    (Did nobody read "Anne of Green Gables" as a child? Geez, kids today...)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    If EVEL, in whatever form, ever happens, the SNP will cry betrayal. Their actions tonight, of course, are designed to make EVEL — the thing they say they oppose — more, not less, likely. Never waste a crisis, of course, and never ignore the possibility of creating one either.

    As for the foxes, well, it’s got nothing to do with them. They’re just the useful vermin.


    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/07/tally-no-the-snp-are-setting-a-trap-for-the-tories-on-fox-hunting/

    If in doubt, assume what is happening is good for the SNP - it's a decent rule of thumb in present times.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    kle4 said:

    If EVEL, in whatever form, ever happens, the SNP will cry betrayal. Their actions tonight, of course, are designed to make EVEL — the thing they say they oppose — more, not less, likely. Never waste a crisis, of course, and never ignore the possibility of creating one either.

    As for the foxes, well, it’s got nothing to do with them. They’re just the useful vermin.


    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/07/tally-no-the-snp-are-setting-a-trap-for-the-tories-on-fox-hunting/

    If in doubt, assume what is happening is good for the SNP - it's a decent rule of thumb in present times.

    And also bad for Labour - whatever the merits of the government's case - the SNP will reanimate the 'Labour in the SNP's pocket' meme - which is also good for the Tories....I wonder if any Labour MPs will spot this.....
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    TimB Here's a link to the original. Strangely sounds very Tom Rush:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfDq8eCLoGE
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Cyclefree said:



    That is relevant to me too but self-government and the bad faith of the EU are pretty high on my list. Self-government is the key for me. I like the European ideal of co-operation, making war unthinkable etc but democracy matters more.

    Self-government matters more than making war unthinkable?
    By that argument, anything is acceptable if the alternative is the gas chambers, its the disgraceful and disingenuous argument of the committed europhile, which says in effect, "disenfranchisement, illiberalism, high handed dictatorial decisions, financial deterioration, economic slump.... who cares! at least we are not a war"
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I expect it was English Tories fault:

    Ms Sturgeon has said there was nothing to suggest the force's handling of the fatal crash had been due to any "wider systemic issue".....

    Scotland's top police officer has said the "massive changes" brought by the creation of the single Police Scotland force were not to blame for a three-day delay in responding to a fatal crash....."We're in the middle of massive change in our call-handling. It's been going on virtually since day one of Police Scotland and it's still going on and it has some way to go.

    "We do work within a budget. Our budget has reduced for the past two years and we're working to an ambitious savings target for this year."

    This organisation needs leadership, I'm providing that leadership."


    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-33508048
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Tim_B said:

    An interesting modification of your previous straight anti-conservative claim, once it was shown to be nonsense.
    in my defence, my original comment was in reply to a straight anti-labour one.

    i haven't voted labour since 1992. i'm kind of left-ish though, true enough
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,946

    Cyclefree said:



    That is relevant to me too but self-government and the bad faith of the EU are pretty high on my list. Self-government is the key for me. I like the European ideal of co-operation, making war unthinkable etc but democracy matters more.

    Sefl-government matters more than making war unthinkable?
    Wonder what the SNP think on that one?

  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Two hundred and sixty-seventh!
    Getting excited about Pluto. I wonder if they will find more moons? Surprised to find it's bigger than Eris. Harriet Harman is a hippopotamus.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547

    Cyclefree said:



    That is relevant to me too but self-government and the bad faith of the EU are pretty high on my list. Self-government is the key for me. I like the European ideal of co-operation, making war unthinkable etc but democracy matters more.

    Sefl-government matters more than making war unthinkable?


    Very much so. Not that warfare between democracies is typical.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509
    Indigo said:
    Yes and no.

    It is obvious (to me at least) that if two people do the same job for the same number of hours, they should get the same base pay rate regardless of gender. This is still not happening in many cases.

    What I dislike is when people talk about women having less lifetime earnings.

    Anecdata time: we have a friend who does the same job as Mrs J. When she had her first child five years ago, she gave up work. She wanted time to be a mother, whilst in our situation it made more sense for Mrs J to go back to work. Our friend will find it very hard to make up the lifetime income she has lost compared to Mrs J, yet she has gained immeasurably from her overwhelming desire to be with her children.

    This disparity in income is not just because of lost earnings, but because Mrs J has progressed in her career during those years.

    Likewise, I will probably be behind my cohort in earnings because I have taken time off to look after my child. I don't care (then again, we're in a fortunate position where we can manage on one salary).

    Equal pay for equal work and equal opportunities for equal skills is where we should be aiming, not equal lifetime earnings.

    The answer, of course, is for more men to be enlightened and look after their kids whilst their wives work. As women are now earning more in their younger years, it also makes financial sense. ;)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    www.telegraph.co.UK/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11736306/slave-trade-row-over-schoolgirls-Black-Country-flag.html

    A professional complainer's work is never done.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    john_zims said:

    @NickPalmer

    Since messing about with the hunitng ban is so unpopular, the decision also helps detoxify the SNP and thereby weakens the EVEL case. "That wicked Sturgeon might stop us tearing foxes apart!" is a bit short of electoral appeal.'

    What an idiotic comment.

    There are plenty more where that came from. This is the man famed for the canvassing anecdote, who believed he was going to storm home in Broxtowe.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    New thread.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    fitalass said:

    The problem was Cameron's, but thanks to this SNP PR stunt tonight, he just got his perfect get out of losing the vote card through a major technicality based on SNP spite.

    I suspect that the Government were always going to lose this vote on the Hunting Bill anyway, and because there were not nearly enough Conservative MP's who were going to support it. But thanks to the SNP's latest tactics, especially after Sturgeon's very public pledge earlier this year. It will now inevitable turn out to be a pyrrhic victory for the SNP while turning out to be a win win for Cameron on the issue of both fox hunting and EVEL's.

    What with the Labour party descending into civil war over the Welfare Bill tonight, its nots been a bad day at the Office for Cameron or Osborne today.

    SeanT said:

    At some point the Nats are going to over-reach and come very nastily unstuck. Stunts like this will then be remembered. Makes them look unserious.

    But for now the problem is Cameron's. If he can, he should withdraw the Bill, push through the EVEL legislation, then have another go when Scot Nat MPs are excluded.

    RobD said:

    Are the SNP going to outlaw fox hunting entirely north of the border, or at least bring it into line with the English position. Strange we've not heard any moves to tighten it up until now.

    SeanT said:

    "The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as foxhunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that.."

    Nicola Sturgeon, writing in the Guardian, in February.

    This is a strategic error by the SNP. Throwing away serious principle for partisan gain.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/08/nicola-sturgeon-snp-mps-will-vote-on-english-issues

    David Cameron is a supporter of Hunting Act repeal.

    The votes were there without the SNP. The current for/against numbers are almost level. And, although 99 MPs remain 'undecided', almost 70 of them are Tory, and they'd break disproportionately for repeal:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/foxhunting/11635617/Foxhunting-ban-Will-my-MP-vote-to-repeal-it.html
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