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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On fox-hunting a reminder from the SNP of the tight parliam

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  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    The country needs to go on a diet and the big two parties are arguing over what is the least unhealthy dish at the curry house
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    SeanT said:

    Alistair said:

    Also if we are talking optics then I think trying to use the Fox Hunting ban as the justification for EV4EL is myopic at best.

    "Deny Scots Democracy So We Can Kill Cute Furry Animals"

    I need to work on the slogan as I'm sleep deprived due to sick baby but that's the base of it and why it would be a bad idea.

    No, you just say the SNP have gone back on their principled stand not to vote on English matters, INCLUDING foxhunting, indeed they have acted in express contradiction of their own leader's vow to abstain on certain English issues. Therefore we have no choice but to enact a measure which holds the SNP to their apparently meaningless promises. EVEL.
    The SNP going back on their word is hardly a surprise.

    I'd put more faith in a Greek politician's ability to make good on a promise.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    As someone who is a Pro-EU chap, I have to admit this has not been the finest moment for the British Pro-EU movement.

    Even I'm having my doubts, and can see a lot of my left wing turning into committed outers.

    I've gone from being 90% certain to voting for IN to maybe 60% certain.
    I've gone from about 70% to voting IN to about 55%. We really need Cameron to negotiate major repatriations to protect us from the mess.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2015
    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    Well well well, the French are demanding Britain to foot some of the bill in support of the French veto of Grexit.
    I think this is once more the time for the French President to hear some good old British expletives and middle fingers along with a loud NO.
    Sounds all set up so that Dave can save the British Sausage.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scott_P said:

    @JacksonMSP: @NicolaSturgeon to @EvanHD "very clear with people in England/legitimate to press me" SNP key test "budgetary interest for Scotland". Oops.

    Key test or only test?
  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    edited July 2015

    saddened said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    SeanT said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    RobD said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    The priorities for the Conservative Party since the election:

    1. Private Royal Mail

    2. Remove support for the poorest at University

    3. Gut the BBC

    4. Cut Corporation Tax

    5. Remove tax credits to push children into poverty

    Labour need to learn from the Conservatives and let their manifesto have no reflection to their actual beliefs.

    Weren't those (apart from the hyperbolic 2 & 3) actually in the manifesto?

    Edit: for 5, cutting tax credits was in the manifesto. Not the pledge to push children into poverty! Thankfully, the pledge to continue eating babies remained).
    I've double checked and none of those policies were in the manifesto.

    Unlike most people, I actually read manifestos!

    Edit: And I guess it makes sense that the right doesn't see the logical consequence of "cutting tax credits" as "pushing children into poverty", making it easy for them to rationalise the policy.
    The narcissistic misery and flailing impotence of the whining Left, including you, has been one of the great delights of the summer.

    Thankyou. Sincerely.

    I'm glad right-wing sociopaths like you can get enjoyment out of things other exploiting Filipino sex slaves.
    I like you. You're funny.
    Oliver
    I think you missed out inheritance tax .. You can have a nice bawl about how its all so unfair. Perhaps your party ought to have thought a bit more before choosing suck an obviously weird loser as their leader... not long before they choose another one from the list of 4 new candidate losers.
    I don't agree with an inheritance tax cut, but at least that was in the Tory manifesto, unlike the other policies which magically appeared from nowhere post-election despite clearly being on their agenda. It's almost as though they thought they would be unpopular.

    And "my party"? Seriously? It's typical of the right to be ultra-tribal. I guess in the absence of normal empathy for people, they focus on winning instead.
    SeanT said:



    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    A quick Google shows that UK banks have about ~£5bn in exposure, so the UK didn't "avoid it" - it's yet another bailout of the banking sector by the public.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Alistair said:

    Key test or only test?

    If you fail a "key" test, in what sense was it key?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2015

    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    Well well well, the French are demanding Britain to foot some of the bill in support of the French veto of Grexit.
    I think this is once more the time for the French President to hear some good old British expletives and middle fingers along with a loud NO.
    Sounds all set up so that Dave can save the British Sausage.
    Nope, the French want to give Greece a bridge loan through the EFSF which Britain is a member.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    Oliver_PB said:

    saddened said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    SeanT said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    RobD said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    The priorities for the Conservative Party since the election:

    1. Private Royal Mail

    2. Remove support for the poorest at University

    3. Gut the BBC

    4. Cut Corporation Tax

    5. Remove tax credits to push children into poverty

    Labour need to learn from the Conservatives and let their manifesto have no reflection to their actual beliefs.

    Weren't those (apart from the hyperbolic 2 & 3) actually in the manifesto?

    Edit: for 5, cutting tax credits was in the manifesto. Not the pledge to push children into poverty! Thankfully, the pledge to continue eating babies remained).
    I've double checked and none of those policies were in the manifesto.

    Unlike most people, I actually read manifestos!

    Edit: And I guess it makes sense that the right doesn't see the logical consequence of "cutting tax credits" as "pushing children into poverty", making it easy for them to rationalise the policy.
    The narcissistic misery and flailing impotence of the whining Left, including you, has been one of the great delights of the summer.

    Thankyou. Sincerely.

    I'm glad right-wing sociopaths like you can get enjoyment out of things other exploiting Filipino sex slaves.
    I like you. You're funny.
    Oliver
    I think you missed out inheritance tax .. You can have a nice bawl about how its all so unfair. Perhaps your party ought to have thought a bit more before choosing suck an obviously weird loser as their leader... not long before they choose another one from the list of 4 new candidate losers.
    I don't agree with an inheritance tax cut, but at least that was in the Tory manifesto, unlike the other policies which magically appeared from nowhere post-election.

    And "my party"? Seriously? It's typical of the right to be ultra-tribal. I guess in the absence of normal empathy for people, they care only about winning instead.
    SeanT said:



    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    A quick Google shows that UK banks have about ~£5bn in exposure, so the UK didn't "avoid it" - it's yet another bailout of the banking sector by the public.
    That £5 Bn in exposure is probably already mostly written off on the balance sheet of HSBC though, it's not really "Britain's exposure" - they're plenty big enough to absorb it, it's very different to the taxpayer contributing a billion to the fund.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    SNP desperate to distract the voters from their abject record on the domestic front - ooh look am English fox ...!
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2015
    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    The quotes from Cameron will be joyous if Brussels is mad enough to approve this.
    "I am happy to say that, because this Government got us out of the bail-out zones, we are not one of Greece’s creditors." [HC Deb 23 Feb 2015, col. 44]
    "We have already returned a power to Britain by getting out of the bail-out fund." [HC Deb 23 Mar 2015, col. 1125]
    "[W]e got Britain out of the euro bail-out schemes" [HC Deb 23 Mar 2015, col. 1122].
    "[We] got Britain out of the bail-out schemes" [HC Deb 27 Oct 2014, col. 25].
    "I have said no in Europe: I said no to a rise in the EU budget; I said no to an entire treaty; I said no to the European bail-out funds. People in Europe know that when I say no, I mean it." [HC Deb 27 Oct 2014, col. 32]

    I could go on. Either the man is a fool or he is a cozening mountebank. Either way, he is the worst possible person to be "renegotiating" British membership of the EU.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    As someone who is a Pro-EU chap, I have to admit this has not been the finest moment for the British Pro-EU movement.

    Even I'm having my doubts, and can see a lot of my left wing turning into committed outers.

    I've gone from being 90% certain to voting for IN to maybe 60% certain.
    I've gone from about 70% to voting IN to about 55%. We really need Cameron to negotiate major repatriations to protect us from the mess.
    What is becoming increasingly apparent is that the EU is being run for the benefit of big business and EU bureaucrats. There has been a significant rise in the number of anti-EU articles the Guardian is churning out. I am suprised it has taken them this long to realise the EU could not care less about what is best for EU citizens.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS02aC4Yv8
    RobD said:

    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,163
    English Parliament NOW!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    Either the man is a fool or he is a cozening mountebank.
    I hope it's the latter, it sounds great! Though the almighty Google tells me it could be interpreted to mean a deceiving deceiver, which sounds less great I'll admit.

    Night all.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Plato said:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS02aC4Yv8

    RobD said:

    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D

    Glorious :D And even then they still under-predicted the Tory seat number!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,169

    Oliver_PB said:

    The priorities for the Conservative Party since the election:

    1. Private Royal Mail

    2. Remove support for the poorest at University

    3. Gut the BBC

    4. Cut Corporation Tax

    5. Remove tax credits to push children into poverty

    Labour need to learn from the Conservatives and let their manifesto have no reflection to their actual beliefs.

    Of course, none of this should be be any surprised when you consider the type of highly privileged sociopaths that would join the Conservative Party in the 80s and 90s. They fundamentally believe they are superior to the poor, in the same mindset that led to slavery.

    The Tory/"libertarian" dream is for children to grow up in poverty, inevitably neglected by parents who have to force two jobs to make ends meet, have no state whatsoever support after 18, if they have the good fortune to go to university then force them into a lifetime of debt, then a lifetime of unskilled-or-semi-skilled servitude to the super-rich who control giant corporations in near poverty.

    Then claim that's "freedom" and "liberty" and those people refused to "do the right thing".

    Bloody hell those Tory proposals give me the horn.
    The hunting horn presumably.

    Apropos of not much, I seem to recall that Proust described a young woman as having tits like hunting horns.
  • Putting aside the rights and wrongs of the SNP's decision to oppose the amendment to the Hunting Act, you have to marvel at the absolute ineptitude of the Government's handling of all this. Had they limited the amendment to bring it in line with Scottish law it would have been inconceivable that the SNP would have voted against it. Instead they included two additional clauses that would have allowed hunting of an animal with a pack of hounds for "research and observation purposes". It was that clause that shot the Tory fox,
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,338

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    The quotes from Cameron will be joyous if Brussels is mad enough to approve this.
    "I am happy to say that, because this Government got us out of the bail-out zones, we are not one of Greece’s creditors." [HC Deb 23 Feb 2015, col. 44]
    "We have already returned a power to Britain by getting out of the bail-out fund." [HC Deb 23 Mar 2015, col. 1125]
    "[W]e got Britain out of the euro bail-out schemes" [HC Deb 23 Mar 2015, col. 1122].
    "[We] got Britain out of the bail-out schemes" [HC Deb 27 Oct 2014, col. 25].
    "I have said no in Europe: I said no to a rise in the EU budget; I said no to an entire treaty; I said no to the European bail-out funds. People in Europe know that when I say no, I mean it." [HC Deb 27 Oct 2014, col. 32]

    I could go on. Either the man is a fool or he is a cozening mountebank. Either way, he is the worst possible person to be "renegotiating" British membership of the EU.
    Quite. I feel about the EU much as the Germans feel about Greece. They will say and promise anything to win the referendum and will then renege. The recent revelations about how they intend paying for a bailout reinforce that view. I simply don't trust the EU to stick to any promises or concessions they may make to Cameron. Only treaty changes with wording leaving no wiggle room can be relied on. After all, what happened to all those promises to reform the CAP in return for giving up part of our rebate?

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I watched Sky on the night, then listened to the entire R5 coverage - hilarious.
    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Plato said:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS02aC4Yv8

    RobD said:

    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D

    Glorious :D And even then they still under-predicted the Tory seat number!
    I confess I have watched the entire 2015 BBC General Election Special TWICE. There are so many delicious moments, from Ashdown's pompous scoffing at the exit poll, through the slow painful realisation by the entire media classes that the poll is right, all the way to Balls' exquisitely delayed execution.

    Narrative genius.

    It is much better in dramaturgical terms than 1997. Better pacing. And more unexpected, of course.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    Oliver_PB said:

    The priorities for the Conservative Party since the election:

    1. Private Royal Mail

    2. Remove support for the poorest at University

    3. Gut the BBC

    4. Cut Corporation Tax

    5. Remove tax credits to push children into poverty

    Labour need to learn from the Conservatives and let their manifesto have no reflection to their actual beliefs.

    Of course, none of this should be be any surprised when you consider the type of highly privileged sociopaths that would join the Conservative Party in the 80s and 90s. They fundamentally believe they are superior to the poor, in the same mindset that led to slavery.

    The Tory/"libertarian" dream is for children to grow up in poverty, inevitably neglected by parents who have to force two jobs to make ends meet, have no state whatsoever support after 18, if they have the good fortune to go to university then force them into a lifetime of debt, then a lifetime of unskilled-or-semi-skilled servitude to the super-rich who control giant corporations in near poverty.

    Then claim that's "freedom" and "liberty" and those people refused to "do the right thing".

    Bloody hell those Tory proposals give me the horn.
    The hunting horn presumably.

    Apropos of not much, I seem to recall that Proust described a young woman as having tits like hunting horns.
    As hard as I try, hunting does nothing for me, either way.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Oliver_PB said:

    saddened said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    SeanT said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    RobD said:

    Oliver_PB said:

    The priorities for the Conservative Party since the election:

    1. Private Royal Mail

    2. Remove support for the poorest at University

    3. Gut the BBC

    4. Cut Corporation Tax

    5. Remove tax credits to push children into poverty

    Labour need to learn from the Conservatives and let their manifesto have no reflection to their actual beliefs.

    Weren't those (apart from the hyperbolic 2 & 3) actually in the manifesto?

    Edit: for 5, cutting tax credits was in the manifesto. Not the pledge to push children into poverty! Thankfully, the pledge to continue eating babies remained).
    I've double checked and none of those policies were in the manifesto.

    Unlike most people, I actually read manifestos!

    Edit: And I guess it makes sense that the right doesn't see the logical consequence of "cutting tax credits" as "pushing children into poverty", making it easy for them to rationalise the policy.
    The narcissistic misery and flailing impotence of the whining Left, including you, has been one of the great delights of the summer.

    Thankyou. Sincerely.

    I'm glad right-wing sociopaths like you can get enjoyment out of things other exploiting Filipino sex slaves.
    I like you. You're funny.
    Oliver
    I think you missed out inheritance tax .. You can have a nice bawl about how its all so unfair. Perhaps your party ought to have thought a bit more before choosing suck an obviously weird loser as their leader... not long before they choose another one from the list of 4 new candidate losers.
    I don't agree with an inheritance tax cut, but at least that was in the Tory manifesto, unlike the other policies which magically appeared from nowhere post-election despite clearly being on their agenda. It's almost as though they thought they would be unpopular.

    And "my party"? Seriously? It's typical of the right to be ultra-tribal. I guess in the absence of normal empathy for people, they focus on winning instead.
    SeanT said:



    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    A quick Google shows that UK banks have about ~£5bn in exposure, so the UK didn't "avoid it" - it's yet another bailout of the banking sector by the public.
    Excluding Lehmans
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Plato said:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS02aC4Yv8

    RobD said:

    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D

    Glorious :D And even then they still under-predicted the Tory seat number!
    I confess I have watched the entire 2015 BBC General Election Special TWICE. There are so many delicious moments, from Ashdown's pompous scoffing at the exit poll, through the slow painful realisation by the entire media classes that the poll is right, all the way to Balls' exquisitely delayed execution.

    Narrative genius.

    It is much better in dramaturgical terms than 1997. Better pacing. And more unexpected, of course.
    I'll never forget that night
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Plato said:

    For interest - Team2020 are already building the groundwar game for the Mayoral Election, EU ref and others

    CCHQ aren't missing a beat here. I'm rather impressed and will be signing up again. The Staggers piece about Labour's ground game was worth a look - though it's packed with excuses such as Evil Tories Had Money We Didn't blah blah http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/does-canvassing-matter

    But for which side on EURef?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    notme said:

    Plato said:

    For interest - Team2020 are already building the groundwar game for the Mayoral Election, EU ref and others

    CCHQ aren't missing a beat here. I'm rather impressed and will be signing up again. The Staggers piece about Labour's ground game was worth a look - though it's packed with excuses such as Evil Tories Had Money We Didn't blah blah http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/does-canvassing-matter

    The answer to the question "does canvassing matter?" YES YES YES.

    You identify support, you see where you have growth, where you are losing. You pick up what is happening on the ground, you get to sell your candidate.

    But it is a fruitless exercise if what you are selling is tainted goods. A local labour PPC went for the 'local girl' thing, and did a lot of canvassing, it didnt help her to win (the swing in England to labour would have been enough to win, she ended up tripling the cons majority though) because she was a poor candidate. A plucky hard worker, but not a prospective MP.
    If you are a bad candidate then clearly that does not help, but Tim Farron, for instance, is a good example of an effective local candidate who has campaigned hard, taken a seat and built up a huge majority he has held even when the trend is against his party nationaly
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scott_P said:

    Alistair said:

    Key test or only test?

    If you fail a "key" test, in what sense was it key?
    It's not about failing test it's about passing them.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Alistair said:

    It's not about failing test it's about passing them.

    And this does NOT pass...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AngelaHaggerty: This from @MrMcEnaney is the best summation of the SNP/foxhunting fiasco I've read http://t.co/sDUqFtMVm1
  • SeanT said:

    He HAS to thwart this proposed British bail in. Could split the party wide open, and ruin his referendum plans.

    As others have noted, perhaps this is all theatrics and Cameron will now successfully pose as the man who prevented something that was never gonna happen,

    OTOH the eurocrats were tired and desperate and maybe they voted through a mad idea that no one thought through: Britain paying for the euro. Who knows. Interesting test for Dave if the Telegraph report is correct.

    This measure looks certain to get a qualified majority in the Council should it be proposed, even if we vote against. All the eurozone states will vote in favour, since their collective position was determined this morning. That is more than 55% of member states, and almost exactly 65% of the EU population, which constitutes a qualified majority.

    The only other route of challenge would be in the Court of Justice. That court has a naked political bias towards integration. Furthermore, there are certain dicta in Pringle v Ireland [2013] 2 CMLR 2 which seem to suggest that the earlier use of article 122(2) TFEU was lawful (see p. 53 of the report). The Court might also take the view that we should have challenged the Council regulation of 2010, and that any challenge to the legality of the EFSM is five years out of time. A legal challenge, especially in the unlikely event that interim relief was granted by the court, could also produce a Grexit, simply because the money must be paid in a very short space of time. It is unlikely but not impossible Cameron would have the bottle to launch such a challenge. We could just refuse to pay, but no British government has ever done that.

    In some ways, being forced to pay would be good for Britain. It would be a £1 billion gamble on an insolvent emerging from bankruptcy. It would increase public suspicion of the EU institutions, and would prove that Cameron is an inept negotiator, reducing the chances of the credulous believing Cameron will produce a substantial "renegotiation" of British membership.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    TGOHF said:

    SNP desperate to distract the voters from their abject record on the domestic front - ooh look am English fox ...!

    Yeah, they are hurting after that thrashing they got at the hands of the voters in May.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Plato said:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS02aC4Yv8

    RobD said:

    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D

    Glorious :D And even then they still under-predicted the Tory seat number!
    I confess I have watched the entire 2015 BBC General Election Special TWICE. There are so many delicious moments, from Ashdown's pompous scoffing at the exit poll, through the slow painful realisation by the entire media classes that the poll is right, all the way to Balls' exquisitely delayed execution.

    Narrative genius.

    It is much better in dramaturgical terms than 1997. Better pacing. And more unexpected, of course.
    I'll never forget that night
    Politics can't get any better than that (let's not forget the subplot of the SNP surge, which on any normal election night would have been the main story).

    It was the geekological equivalent of the 2005 Ashes.
    I was editing PB and couldn't believe some of the stuff I was seeing and having to write about.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,163

    Oliver_PB said:

    The priorities for the Conservative Party since the election:

    1. Private Royal Mail

    2. Remove support for the poorest at University

    3. Gut the BBC

    4. Cut Corporation Tax

    5. Remove tax credits to push children into poverty

    Labour need to learn from the Conservatives and let their manifesto have no reflection to their actual beliefs.

    Of course, none of this should be be any surprised when you consider the type of highly privileged sociopaths that would join the Conservative Party in the 80s and 90s. They fundamentally believe they are superior to the poor, in the same mindset that led to slavery.

    The Tory/"libertarian" dream is for children to grow up in poverty, inevitably neglected by parents who have to force two jobs to make ends meet, have no state whatsoever support after 18, if they have the good fortune to go to university then force them into a lifetime of debt, then a lifetime of unskilled-or-semi-skilled servitude to the super-rich who control giant corporations in near poverty.

    Then claim that's "freedom" and "liberty" and those people refused to "do the right thing".

    Bloody hell those Tory proposals give me the horn.
    The hunting horn presumably.

    Apropos of not much, I seem to recall that Proust described a young woman as having tits like hunting horns.
    As hard as I try, hunting does nothing for me, either way.
    The harder you try, the further away from you it's slipping?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    The quotes from Cameron will be joyous if Brussels is mad enough to approve this.
    "I am happy to say that, because this Government got us out of the bail-out zones, we are not one of Greece’s creditors." [HC Deb 23 Feb 2015, col. 44]
    "We have already returned a power to Britain by getting out of the bail-out fund." [HC Deb 23 Mar 2015, col. 1125]
    "[W]e got Britain out of the euro bail-out schemes" [HC Deb 23 Mar 2015, col. 1122].
    "[We] got Britain out of the bail-out schemes" [HC Deb 27 Oct 2014, col. 25].
    "I have said no in Europe: I said no to a rise in the EU budget; I said no to an entire treaty; I said no to the European bail-out funds. People in Europe know that when I say no, I mean it." [HC Deb 27 Oct 2014, col. 32]

    I could go on. Either the man is a fool or he is a cozening mountebank. Either way, he is the worst possible person to be "renegotiating" British membership of the EU.
    Quite. I feel about the EU much as the Germans feel about Greece. They will say and promise anything to win the referendum and will then renege. The recent revelations about how they intend paying for a bailout reinforce that view. I simply don't trust the EU to stick to any promises or concessions they may make to Cameron. Only treaty changes with wording leaving no wiggle room can be relied on. After all, what happened to all those promises to reform the CAP in return for giving up part of our rebate?

    It's amazing how CAP is now something we're not even trying to renegotiate on. Half the EU budget is spent on something everyone knows is terrible policy, but there have been so many failed attempts to address it we've given up entirely on even slimming it slightly.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    It's full of emotive virtue signalling that I found entirely pointless - this was apposite


    We railed against the obscenity of England imposing governments we didn’t vote for, yet now we are to support the supposed right of Scottish MPs to impose policy on the rest of the UK?
    Scott_P said:

    @AngelaHaggerty: This from @MrMcEnaney is the best summation of the SNP/foxhunting fiasco I've read http://t.co/sDUqFtMVm1

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Well, that's it, then. The SNP have given up the slightest pretence of being principled, have made themselves moral laughing-stocks even amongst the remaining few who believed anything they said. There is not a smidgen of wriggle room on this issue: it has nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to do with Scotland, not even the fig-leaf of Barnett which they've previously relied on to hide their abject dishonesty.

    It's useful to have cleared that up.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    Well, that's it, then. The SNP have given up the slightest pretence of being principled, have made themselves moral laughing-stocks even amongst the remaining few who believed anything they said. There is not a smidgen of wriggle room on this issue: it has nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to do with Scotland, not even the fig-leaf of Barnett which they've previously relied on to hide their abject dishonesty.

    It's useful to have cleared that up.

    Vote against them next time.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ed Conway's reporting some very strange new things imposed on Greece as part of their deal - deregulating bakeries, extended sell-by dates on milk... looks like piddling micromanagement is alive and well in the box tickers of the EU and IMF.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4496803.ece
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    edited July 2015
    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    Plato said:

    For interest - Team2020 are already building the groundwar game for the Mayoral Election, EU ref and others

    CCHQ aren't missing a beat here. I'm rather impressed and will be signing up again. The Staggers piece about Labour's ground game was worth a look - though it's packed with excuses such as Evil Tories Had Money We Didn't blah blah http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/does-canvassing-matter

    The answer to the question "does canvassing matter?" YES YES YES.

    You identify support, you see where you have growth, where you are losing. You pick up what is happening on the ground, you get to sell your candidate.

    But it is a fruitless exercise if what you are selling is tainted goods. A local labour PPC went for the 'local girl' thing, and did a lot of canvassing, it didnt help her to win (the swing in England to labour would have been enough to win, she ended up tripling the cons majority though) because she was a poor candidate. A plucky hard worker, but not a prospective MP.
    If you are a bad candidate then clearly that does not help, but Tim Farron, for instance, is a good example of an effective local candidate who has campaigned hard, taken a seat and built up a huge majority he has held even when the trend is against his party nationaly
    Tim is a rarity though. Hes like one of those people who runs ultra marathons. He's inexhaustible, and he's a rarity. It is true that the LibDems tended to have more such people in their ranks than other parties. Maybe its do with the libdems having to fight for every single vote, and the concept of a safe seat doesnt really exist in Libdem land.

    She was no Tim.
  • Plato said:

    It's full of emotive virtue signalling that I found entirely pointless - this was apposite



    We railed against the obscenity of England imposing governments we didn’t vote for, yet now we are to support the supposed right of Scottish MPs to impose policy on the rest of the UK?
    Scott_P said:

    @AngelaHaggerty: This from @MrMcEnaney is the best summation of the SNP/foxhunting fiasco I've read http://t.co/sDUqFtMVm1


    Thanks for your recommendation of Tom Baker's autobiog. Just ordered it from Amazon and only £2.80 to boot. :-)
  • Well, that's it, then. The SNP have given up the slightest pretence of being principled, have made themselves moral laughing-stocks even amongst the remaining few who believed anything they said. There is not a smidgen of wriggle room on this issue: it has nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to do with Scotland, not even the fig-leaf of Barnett which they've previously relied on to hide their abject dishonesty.

    It's useful to have cleared that up.

    It's a shame that the Tory government is doing nothing to rid us of this mad legacy of Blair's, but is extending and entrenching it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PaulBrandITV: Sturgeon told me before the election the SNP would not deliberately antagonise England. #foxhunting decision somewhat questions that promise
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Sturgeon told me before the election the SNP would not deliberately antagonise England. #foxhunting decision somewhat questions that promise

    Lots of English people in towns will be delighted.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    It's a shame that the Tory government is doing nothing to rid us of this mad legacy of Blair's, but is extending and entrenching it.

    For once you are right to pin the blame where it belongs: Tony Blair.

    Unfortunately, as with many of the messes left to us by the 1997-2010 governments, fixing the problem is much easier said than done.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    SeanT said:

    Appalling Yazidi story on Newsnight right now.

    Virgins separated out, so as to be gangraped. Pregant women forced to miscarry. Ten year olds raped then killed.

    ISIS are mere beasts. So butcher them.

    https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/619543515777867776
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    SeanT said:

    Appalling Yazidi story on Newsnight right now.

    Virgins separated out, so as to be gangraped. Pregant women forced to miscarry. Ten year olds raped then killed.

    ISIS are mere beasts. So butcher them.

    And hundreds upon hundreds of men, women and children raised in this country think they're worth giving up everything to go and join. That is about as damning an indictment of multiculturalism as you can get.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2015
    @SeanT - I think you might have retired for the night a few days ago when I revealed the verdict of the Sussex book club on the Ice Twins (and a rewrite of the ending). End of this thread:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/06/at-exactly-2200-on-may-7th-uk-politics-totally-changed-in-the-biggest-shock-election-since-1970/
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Pathetic. Totally pathetic. I hope it backfires.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    Well, that's it, then. The SNP have given up the slightest pretence of being principled, have made themselves moral laughing-stocks even amongst the remaining few who believed anything they said. There is not a smidgen of wriggle room on this issue: it has nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to do with Scotland, not even the fig-leaf of Barnett which they've previously relied on to hide their abject dishonesty.

    It's useful to have cleared that up.

    It's a shame that the Tory government is doing nothing to rid us of this mad legacy of Blair's, but is extending and entrenching it.
    If Cameron repeals devolution, how can the Conservatives win a Holyrood majority in 2016?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547

    Well, that's it, then. The SNP have given up the slightest pretence of being principled, have made themselves moral laughing-stocks even amongst the remaining few who believed anything they said. There is not a smidgen of wriggle room on this issue: it has nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to do with Scotland, not even the fig-leaf of Barnett which they've previously relied on to hide their abject dishonesty.

    It's useful to have cleared that up.

    It's a shame that the Tory government is doing nothing to rid us of this mad legacy of Blair's, but is extending and entrenching it.
    What puzzles me is why the Conservative Party is so nervous. 2015 delivered a solid right wing majority, in voting terms. The liberal left are a paper tiger.
  • EPG said:

    If Cameron repeals devolution, how can the Conservatives win a Holyrood majority in 2016?

    The answer today is not to repeal devolution, but to prevent Scottish MPs from voting on legislation applying to England whose subject matter is within the devolved competence of the Scottish Parliament.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    I should add.. and totally predictable too.

    All the SNP care about is advancing the cause of an independent Scotland, and f*cking the Tories - their hated enemy.

    This proposal does both, but it's also possible it backfires. It could push a few wavering Tory fox-hunting sceptics into the Yes camp out of anger at the SNP perfidiousness, and a few Labour MPs - who might otherwise have voted No - to abstain.

    It will be very close. I reckon 290-285 for an amendment.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2015
    Sean_F said:

    What puzzles me is why the Conservative Party is so nervous. 2015 delivered a solid right wing majority, in voting terms. The liberal left are a paper tiger.

    The liberal left (and their more extreme cousins) are by no means a paper tiger. They have nearly half the seats in the Commons. They dominate the Lords. They completely dominate the BBC, which in turn dominates the news media. They are very well entrenched in the quangos and charities. They are very well entrenched in the legal profession. They completely dominate schools and universities.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    1 in 30 are employed by charities these days - that's quite a slice for what was once a voluntary activity.

    Sean_F said:

    What puzzles me is why the Conservative Party is so nervous. 2015 delivered a solid right wing majority, in voting terms. The liberal left are a paper tiger.

    The liberal left (and their more extreme cousins) are by no means a paper tiger. They have nearly half the seats in the Commons. They dominate the Lords. They completely dominate the BBC, which in turn dominates the news media. They are very well entrenched in the quangos and charities. They are very well entrenched in the legal profession. They completely dominate schools and universities.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    I should add.. and totally predictable too.

    All the SNP care about is advancing the cause of an independent Scotland, and f*cking the Tories - their hated enemy.

    This proposal does both, but it's also possible it backfires. It could push a few wavering Tory fox-hunting sceptics into the Yes camp out of anger at the SNP perfidiousness, and a few Labour MPs - who might otherwise have voted No - to abstain.

    It will be very close. I reckon 290-285 for an amendment.

    I don't know why any Labour MP who intends to vote No would abstain now that defeating the government looks more likely.

    Given the chance to get one over the majority Conservative government they will take it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    As someone who is a Pro-EU chap, I have to admit this has not been the finest moment for the British Pro-EU movement.

    Even I'm having my doubts, and can see a lot of my left wing turning into committed outers.

    I've gone from being 90% certain to voting for IN to maybe 60% certain.
    Encouraging. I hope we Outers can continue to have a conversation to (perhaps) persuade you.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    1 in 30 are employed by charities these days - that's quite a slice for what was once a voluntary activity.

    Charities involved in politics? Surely not...

    @JournoStephen: The Tories are already fuming over SNP plans to vote against repeal of the hunting ban. This will infuriate them. http://t.co/VbO1UjBbv0
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547

    Sean_F said:

    What puzzles me is why the Conservative Party is so nervous. 2015 delivered a solid right wing majority, in voting terms. The liberal left are a paper tiger.

    The liberal left (and their more extreme cousins) are by no means a paper tiger. They have nearly half the seats in the Commons. They dominate the Lords. They completely dominate the BBC, which in turn dominates the news media. They are very well entrenched in the quangos and charities. They are very well entrenched in the legal profession. They completely dominate schools and universities.
    Then, put the boot in. You have 332 MP's, plus another 12 who'll generally side with you.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Turns out it was Juncker that wants to rip up the agreement Cameron signed with the EU to exempt the UK from further bailouts:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11737286/EU-demands-Britain-joins-Greek-rescue-fund.html

    If the EU goes ahead with this, then it will show two things:

    1) We are completely at the mercy of economic decisions taken by the Eurogroup, as they can then vote through the wider EU on QMV easily. It will be essential for the EU to change to a system where you need to get a double majority of both Euro and non-Euro nations.

    2) The EU can not be trusted to stick to signed agreements with the UK, and only full treaty change will be acceptable in the renegotiation.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2015
    Sean_F said:

    What puzzles me is why the Conservative Party is so nervous. 2015 delivered a solid right wing majority, in voting terms. The liberal left are a paper tiger.

    I have to agree with @RichardN on this one. Although the values of the metropolitan left have little currency among electorate, they are very widely held by those occupying positions of key cultural and political influence, even dare I say it, by several members of the parliamentary Conservative Party.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Plato said:

    RobD said:

    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D

    I never get bored watching that exit poll. Wondrous.

    Goodnight all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    notme said:

    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    Plato said:

    For interest - Team2020 are already building the groundwar game for the Mayoral Election, EU ref and others

    CCHQ aren't missing a beat here. I'm rather impressed and will be signing up again. The Staggers piece about Labour's ground game was worth a look - though it's packed with excuses such as Evil Tories Had Money We Didn't blah blah http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/does-canvassing-matter

    The answer to the question "does canvassing matter?" YES YES YES.

    You identify support, you see where you have growth, where you are losing. You pick up what is happening on the ground, you get to sell your candidate.

    But it is a fruitless exercise if what you are selling is tainted goods. A local labour PPC went for the 'local girl' thing, and did a lot of canvassing, it didnt help her to win (the swing in England to labour would have been enough to win, she ended up tripling the cons majority though) because she was a poor candidate. A plucky hard worker, but not a prospective MP.
    If you are a bad candidate then clearly that does not help, but Tim Farron, for instance, is a good example of an effective local candidate who has campaigned hard, taken a seat and built up a huge majority he has held even when the trend is against his party nationaly
    Tim is a rarity though. Hes like one of those people who runs ultra marathons. He's inexhaustible, and he's a rarity. It is true that the LibDems tended to have more such people in their ranks than other parties. Maybe its do with the libdems having to fight for every single vote, and the concept of a safe seat doesnt really exist in Libdem land.

    She was no Tim.
    Maybe, but at the same time a lazy candidate with good paper qualifications in what should be winnable seat for their party is by no means guaranteed to win it if they do not put in the groundwork
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    EPG said:

    I don't know why any Labour MP who intends to vote No would abstain now

    This is why

    @davidtorrance: That Salmond/Miliband poster is now running in newspapers, including today's Independent #GE2015 http://t.co/1u2zt3vDmd
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    What puzzles me is why the Conservative Party is so nervous. 2015 delivered a solid right wing majority, in voting terms. The liberal left are a paper tiger.

    The liberal left (and their more extreme cousins) are by no means a paper tiger. They have nearly half the seats in the Commons. They dominate the Lords. They completely dominate the BBC, which in turn dominates the news media. They are very well entrenched in the quangos and charities. They are very well entrenched in the legal profession. They completely dominate schools and universities.
    Then, put the boot in. You have 332 MP's, plus another 12 who'll generally side with you.
    They're addressing the BBC well, but they do need to address the Lords. The majority of the public last time voted for right-wing parties. If Cameron was just prepared to give UKIP their fair share of new Lords, then that would drastically tilt the field back towards parity.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited July 2015
    EPG said:

    TGOHF said:

    SNP desperate to distract the voters from their abject record on the domestic front - ooh look am English fox ...!

    Yeah, they are hurting after that thrashing they got at the hands of the voters in May.
    Tell that to the girl found dead in the car this week after being left there by the centralised police run by an SNP lackey and mismanaged by a Holyrood justice minister more concerned whether the Hokey Cokey is offensive or not.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    As someone who is a Pro-EU chap, I have to admit this has not been the finest moment for the British Pro-EU movement.

    Even I'm having my doubts, and can see a lot of my left wing turning into committed outers.

    I've gone from being 90% certain to voting for IN to maybe 60% certain.
    Encouraging. I hope we Outers can continue to have a conversation to (perhaps) persuade you.
    1) Don't use Farage to try persuade me

    2) Show me the economic case for withdrawing from the EU rather than staying in

    3) Don't try and use UKIP's culture wars argument for withdrawal

    And I might vote OUT.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    A better example of overt political campaigning escapes me. I hope the Charity Commission jumps on them.
    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    1 in 30 are employed by charities these days - that's quite a slice for what was once a voluntary activity.

    Charities involved in politics? Surely not...

    @JournoStephen: The Tories are already fuming over SNP plans to vote against repeal of the hunting ban. This will infuriate them. http://t.co/VbO1UjBbv0
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Plato said:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS02aC4Yv8

    RobD said:

    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D

    Glorious :D And even then they still under-predicted the Tory seat number!
    I confess I have watched the entire 2015 BBC General Election Special TWICE. There are so many delicious moments, from Ashdown's pompous scoffing at the exit poll, through the slow painful realisation by the entire media classes that the poll is right, all the way to Balls' exquisitely delayed execution.

    Narrative genius.

    It is much better in dramaturgical terms than 1997. Better pacing. And more unexpected, of course.
    I'll never forget that night
    Politics can't get any better than that (let's not forget the subplot of the SNP surge, which on any normal election night would have been the main story).

    It was the geekological equivalent of the 2005 Ashes.
    I was editing PB and couldn't believe some of the stuff I was seeing and having to write about.
    I'd had a very bad week at work, and some awful news in the family. I thought the Tories were done for.

    I was speechless (literally, not figuratively at the exit poll) and it just got better and better.

    I was walking on water for the rest of the weekend.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    To give you a sense of the sheer madness of ISIS there is this observation of '...the dull thump heavy rocks make as they hit the flesh of a woman being stoned to death by a group of religious zealots led by her own father.'
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/arts/television/9577492/dispatchess-secret-footage-inside-isis-is-ghastly-but-unmissable-says-james-delingpole/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    As someone who is a Pro-EU chap, I have to admit this has not been the finest moment for the British Pro-EU movement.

    Even I'm having my doubts, and can see a lot of my left wing turning into committed outers.

    I've gone from being 90% certain to voting for IN to maybe 60% certain.
    Encouraging. I hope we Outers can continue to have a conversation to (perhaps) persuade you.
    1) Don't use Farage to try persuade me

    2) Show me the economic case for withdrawing from the EU rather than staying in

    3) Don't try and use UKIP's culture wars argument for withdrawal

    And I might vote OUT.
    The economic case isn't decisive either way. It's all about self-government.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    SeanT said:

    Appalling Yazidi story on Newsnight right now.

    Virgins separated out, so as to be gangraped. Pregant women forced to miscarry. Ten year olds raped then killed.

    ISIS are mere beasts. So butcher them.

    An Executive Outcomes type outfit would sort ISIS out in no time.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Sean_F said:

    Then, put the boot in. You have 332 MP's, plus another 12 who'll generally side with you.

    One has to choose the right battles (as Maggie was careful to do).

    I said, before the 2010 election, that it would take three terms to get the country back on track. 2010-2015 was much more successful in that respect than seemed possible on the morning after the election, but even so didn't allow as rapid progress as a majority government would have allowed. Now there is a majority, but it is small, and there's a hell of a lot to do with only a limited stock of political capital. Osborne (rightly) spent a lot of that last week. There's the EU referendum, which will absorb more political capital. UKIP don't help. One has to be realistic.
  • JEO said:

    1) We are completely at the mercy of economic decisions taken by the Eurogroup, as they can then vote through the wider EU on QMV easily. It will be essential for the EU to change to a system where you need to get a double majority of both Euro and non-Euro nations.

    2) The EU can not be trusted to stick to signed agreements with the UK, and only full treaty change will be acceptable in the renegotiation.

    The first suggestion would require treaty change under the ordinary revision procedure (TEU, art 48(1)). That requires a qualified majority in the Council to call an IGC, which must then unanimously agree treaty amendments, which must then be ratified by every member state in accordance with their constitutional requirements. That takes several years, and in any event, there is no chance of it being agreed.

    As for the second, why should the EU institutions be blamed for relying on their supposed rights under the treaties? The blame lies solely with Cameron. He settled for a gentleman's agreement when he had an unassailable opportunity to secure binding treaty change. He is either a fool or a fraud.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,163
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    What puzzles me is why the Conservative Party is so nervous. 2015 delivered a solid right wing majority, in voting terms. The liberal left are a paper tiger.

    The liberal left (and their more extreme cousins) are by no means a paper tiger. They have nearly half the seats in the Commons. They dominate the Lords. They completely dominate the BBC, which in turn dominates the news media. They are very well entrenched in the quangos and charities. They are very well entrenched in the legal profession. They completely dominate schools and universities.
    Then, put the boot in. You have 332 MP's, plus another 12 who'll generally side with you.
    330 Tory MPs
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    edited July 2015



    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Plato said:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS02aC4Yv8

    RobD said:

    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D

    Glorious :D And even then they still under-predicted the Tory seat number!
    I confess I have watched the entire 2015 BBC General Election Special TWICE. There are so many delicious moments, from Ashdown's pompous scoffing at the exit poll, through the slow painful realisation by the entire media classes that the poll is right, all the way to Balls' exquisitely delayed execution.

    Narrative genius.

    It is much better in dramaturgical terms than 1997. Better pacing. And more unexpected, of course.
    I'll never forget that night
    Politics can't get any better than that (let's not forget the subplot of the SNP surge, which on any normal election night would have been the main story).

    It was the geekological equivalent of the 2005 Ashes.
    I was editing PB and couldn't believe some of the stuff I was seeing and having to write about.
    I'd had a very bad week at work, and some awful news in the family. I thought the Tories were done for.

    I was speechless (literally, not figuratively at the exit poll) and it just got better and better.

    I was walking on water for the rest of the weekend.
    Sorry for your bad news, but election night was perfect for me, everything I wanted bar one thing happened.

    1) Tory Majority - check

    2) Reckless losing - check

    3) Farage losing - check

    4) Cable losing - check

    5) Lots of winning bets - check

    6) Balls losing (so I could do the Balls deep in trouble gag once again) - check

    7) SNP surge - So I could use Ajockalypse Now in a thread header - check

    I was hopeful that Labour would have fewer MPs in Scotland than the Tories, but we only 300 votes short of that.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,163

    Oliver_PB said:

    The priorities for the Conservative Party since the election:

    1. Private Royal Mail

    2. Remove support for the poorest at University

    3. Gut the BBC

    4. Cut Corporation Tax

    5. Remove tax credits to push children into poverty

    Labour need to learn from the Conservatives and let their manifesto have no reflection to their actual beliefs.

    Of course, none of this should be be any surprised when you consider the type of highly privileged sociopaths that would join the Conservative Party in the 80s and 90s. They fundamentally believe they are superior to the poor, in the same mindset that led to slavery.

    The Tory/"libertarian" dream is for children to grow up in poverty, inevitably neglected by parents who have to force two jobs to make ends meet, have no state whatsoever support after 18, if they have the good fortune to go to university then force them into a lifetime of debt, then a lifetime of unskilled-or-semi-skilled servitude to the super-rich who control giant corporations in near poverty.

    Then claim that's "freedom" and "liberty" and those people refused to "do the right thing".

    Bloody hell those Tory proposals give me the horn.
    The hunting horn presumably.

    Apropos of not much, I seem to recall that Proust described a young woman as having tits like hunting horns.
    As hard as I try, hunting does nothing for me, either way.
    The harder you try, the further away from you it's slipping?
    Looks like TSE missed my subtle pop music reference :lol:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Adulterers, petty thieves, magicians, women, blasphemers, heathens, homosexuals, Syrian soldiers, Kurds, Yazidis, Shias, western tourists, ISIS will butcher them all given the chance
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    As someone who is a Pro-EU chap, I have to admit this has not been the finest moment for the British Pro-EU movement.

    Even I'm having my doubts, and can see a lot of my left wing turning into committed outers.

    I've gone from being 90% certain to voting for IN to maybe 60% certain.
    Encouraging. I hope we Outers can continue to have a conversation to (perhaps) persuade you.
    1) Don't use Farage to try persuade me

    2) Show me the economic case for withdrawing from the EU rather than staying in

    3) Don't try and use UKIP's culture wars argument for withdrawal

    And I might vote OUT.
    (1) I won't
    (2) I will
    (3) I think it's solely about British democracy. Immigration is one obvious part of that, but I think it's counterproductive to use it to create dividing lines.

    Thanks for the tips.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited July 2015
    Plato said:

    A better example of overt political campaigning escapes me. I hope the Charity Commission jumps on them.

    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    1 in 30 are employed by charities these days - that's quite a slice for what was once a voluntary activity.

    Charities involved in politics? Surely not...

    @JournoStephen: The Tories are already fuming over SNP plans to vote against repeal of the hunting ban. This will infuriate them. http://t.co/VbO1UjBbv0
    Many other so called 'Charities' should be in for a well deserved thumping over their scandalous fundraising and chugging activities, the likes of which would make your average gangster blush. In many cases, it's nothing more than a racket, on a par with the criminal activities of boiler house share salesman.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2015
    @SeanT - We plead guilty to elderly! That's why we like complete sentences.

    In all seriousness, I liked it. It's Wilkie Collins for the 21st Century.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    EPG said:

    I should add.. and totally predictable too.

    All the SNP care about is advancing the cause of an independent Scotland, and f*cking the Tories - their hated enemy.

    This proposal does both, but it's also possible it backfires. It could push a few wavering Tory fox-hunting sceptics into the Yes camp out of anger at the SNP perfidiousness, and a few Labour MPs - who might otherwise have voted No - to abstain.

    It will be very close. I reckon 290-285 for an amendment.

    I don't know why any Labour MP who intends to vote No would abstain now that defeating the government looks more likely.

    Given the chance to get one over the majority Conservative government they will take it.
    Not all Labour MPs are the same. A handful won't be pleased.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Funnily enough - I watched the boiler room episode of White Collar last night along with Margin Call.

    I knew a couple of charity fundraising directors a while ago and harder nuts would be hard to find. The ends justify the means in their minds.
    watford30 said:

    Plato said:

    A better example of overt political campaigning escapes me. I hope the Charity Commission jumps on them.

    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    1 in 30 are employed by charities these days - that's quite a slice for what was once a voluntary activity.

    Charities involved in politics? Surely not...

    @JournoStephen: The Tories are already fuming over SNP plans to vote against repeal of the hunting ban. This will infuriate them. http://t.co/VbO1UjBbv0
    So called 'Charities' are in for a well deserved thumping over their scandalous fundraising and chugging activities, the likes of which would make your average gangster blush. In many cases, it's nothing more than a racket, on a par with the criminal activities of boiler house share salesman.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    edited July 2015

    SeanT said:

    Telegraph is reporting that Britain will be on the hook for £1bn of the Greek bail out.

    So we're having to pony up for the total catastrophe that is the euro, a catastrophe we nationally avoided, and which we explicitly warned against, at the time of the euro's inception.

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/620697026494365700

    Somehow don't see this going down too well.

    As someone who is a Pro-EU chap, I have to admit this has not been the finest moment for the British Pro-EU movement.

    Even I'm having my doubts, and can see a lot of my left wing turning into committed outers.

    I've gone from being 90% certain to voting for IN to maybe 60% certain.
    Encouraging. I hope we Outers can continue to have a conversation to (perhaps) persuade you.
    1) Don't use Farage to try persuade me

    2) Show me the economic case for withdrawing from the EU rather than staying in

    3) Don't try and use UKIP's culture wars argument for withdrawal

    And I might vote OUT.
    (1) I won't
    (2) I will
    (3) I think it's solely about British democracy. Immigration is one obvious part of that, but I think it's counterproductive to use it to create dividing lines.

    Thanks for the tips.
    Number 2 is what has always been crucial to how I was planning to vote, up to the last week, I was sure remaining in the EU was in the country's best economic interest, but now I'm not sure.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    Oliver_PB said:

    The priorities for the Conservative Party since the election:

    1. Private Royal Mail

    2. Remove support for the poorest at University

    3. Gut the BBC

    4. Cut Corporation Tax

    5. Remove tax credits to push children into poverty

    Labour need to learn from the Conservatives and let their manifesto have no reflection to their actual beliefs.

    Of course, none of this should be be any surprised when you consider the type of highly privileged sociopaths that would join the Conservative Party in the 80s and 90s. They fundamentally believe they are superior to the poor, in the same mindset that led to slavery.

    The Tory/"libertarian" dream is for children to grow up in poverty, inevitably neglected by parents who have to force two jobs to make ends meet, have no state whatsoever support after 18, if they have the good fortune to go to university then force them into a lifetime of debt, then a lifetime of unskilled-or-semi-skilled servitude to the super-rich who control giant corporations in near poverty.

    Then claim that's "freedom" and "liberty" and those people refused to "do the right thing".

    Bloody hell those Tory proposals give me the horn.
    The hunting horn presumably.

    Apropos of not much, I seem to recall that Proust described a young woman as having tits like hunting horns.
    As hard as I try, hunting does nothing for me, either way.
    The harder you try, the further away from you it's slipping?
    Looks like TSE missed my subtle pop music reference :lol:
    After realising there are several other Bros fans on PB, I have Bros on the brain
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    What puzzles me is why the Conservative Party is so nervous. 2015 delivered a solid right wing majority, in voting terms. The liberal left are a paper tiger.

    The liberal left (and their more extreme cousins) are by no means a paper tiger. They have nearly half the seats in the Commons. They dominate the Lords. They completely dominate the BBC, which in turn dominates the news media. They are very well entrenched in the quangos and charities. They are very well entrenched in the legal profession. They completely dominate schools and universities.
    Then, put the boot in. You have 332 MP's, plus another 12 who'll generally side with you.
    I think around 26 Conservative MPs are on the record as planning to vote against a repeal, and a further 2 to abstain.

    It will be interesting to see how those numbers move now following the SNP shenanigans.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Plato said:

    A better example of overt political campaigning escapes me. I hope the Charity Commission jumps on them.

    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    1 in 30 are employed by charities these days - that's quite a slice for what was once a voluntary activity.

    Charities involved in politics? Surely not...

    @JournoStephen: The Tories are already fuming over SNP plans to vote against repeal of the hunting ban. This will infuriate them. http://t.co/VbO1UjBbv0
    WTF? Is that for real?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Adulterers, petty thieves, magicians, women, blasphemers, heathens, homosexuals, Syrian soldiers, Kurds, Yazidis, Shias, western tourists, ISIS will butcher them all given the chance

    In the end ISIS will surely kill each other, like the Khmer Rouge, as their bloodthirsty God demands more victims, in the name of ideological purity.

    Question is how long it will take for them to reach their hideous Singularity, and what we can do to accelerate the process.
    Clever use of special forces, particularly in terms of targeted airstrikes, arms shipments to the Kurds will all help, but you are correct, ultimately they are likely to destroy themselves
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Listening to the media reporting the Greece deal, it seems -

    1) it's about sitting down later to hash out the details of the deal
    2) It does nothing to solve the fundamental problem of Greek debt

    In short a classic EU 'deal' - it relieves the immediate pressure but doesn't solve the problem.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    SeanT said:

    Also the French are clever. Yes. The French.

    http://www.babelio.com/livres/Tremayne-Le-doute/726414/critiques

    Interesting change of title.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    watford30 said:

    Plato said:

    A better example of overt political campaigning escapes me. I hope the Charity Commission jumps on them.

    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    1 in 30 are employed by charities these days - that's quite a slice for what was once a voluntary activity.

    Charities involved in politics? Surely not...

    @JournoStephen: The Tories are already fuming over SNP plans to vote against repeal of the hunting ban. This will infuriate them. http://t.co/VbO1UjBbv0
    Many other so called 'Charities' should be in for a well deserved thumping over their scandalous fundraising and chugging activities, the likes of which would make your average gangster blush. In many cases, it's nothing more than a racket, on a par with the criminal activities of boiler house share salesman.
    There's a revolving door between the Labour party, charitable sector, public sector, publicly funded broadcast media and the performing arts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    In a sparse field, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker announced he was entering the race for the GOP nomination for the 2016 presidential election today
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/13/walker-announces-2016-white-house-bid/?intcmp=latestnews
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713



    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    RobD said:

    Plato said:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjS02aC4Yv8

    RobD said:

    Where's scrapheap? BBC just showed the glorious exit poll moment... :D

    Glorious :D And even then they still under-predicted the Tory seat number!
    I confess I have watched the entire 2015 BBC General Election Special TWICE. There are so many delicious moments, from Ashdown's pompous scoffing at the exit poll, through the slow painful realisation by the entire media classes that the poll is right, all the way to Balls' exquisitely delayed execution.

    Narrative genius.

    It is much better in dramaturgical terms than 1997. Better pacing. And more unexpected, of course.
    I'll never forget that night
    Politics can't get any better than that (let's not forget the subplot of the SNP surge, which on any normal election night would have been the main story).

    It was the geekological equivalent of the 2005 Ashes.
    I was editing PB and couldn't believe some of the stuff I was seeing and having to write about.
    I'd had a very bad week at work, and some awful news in the family. I thought the Tories were done for.

    I was speechless (literally, not figuratively at the exit poll) and it just got better and better.

    I was walking on water for the rest of the weekend.
    Sorry for your bad news, but election night was perfect for me, everything I wanted bar one thing happened.

    1) Tory Majority - check

    2) Reckless losing - check

    3) Farage losing - check

    4) Cable losing - check

    5) Lots of winning bets - check

    6) Balls losing (so I could do the Balls deep in trouble gag once again) - check

    7) SNP surge - So I could use Ajockalypse Now in a thread header - check

    I was hopeful that Labour would have fewer MPs in Scotland than the Tories, but we only 300 votes short of that.
    Thanks.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Plato said:

    A better example of overt political campaigning escapes me. I hope the Charity Commission jumps on them.

    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    1 in 30 are employed by charities these days - that's quite a slice for what was once a voluntary activity.

    Charities involved in politics? Surely not...

    @JournoStephen: The Tories are already fuming over SNP plans to vote against repeal of the hunting ban. This will infuriate them. http://t.co/VbO1UjBbv0
    They won't, because they're all cut of the same cloth.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    watford30 said:

    Plato said:

    A better example of overt political campaigning escapes me. I hope the Charity Commission jumps on them.

    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    1 in 30 are employed by charities these days - that's quite a slice for what was once a voluntary activity.

    Charities involved in politics? Surely not...

    @JournoStephen: The Tories are already fuming over SNP plans to vote against repeal of the hunting ban. This will infuriate them. http://t.co/VbO1UjBbv0
    Many other so called 'Charities' should be in for a well deserved thumping over their scandalous fundraising and chugging activities, the likes of which would make your average gangster blush. In many cases, it's nothing more than a racket, on a par with the criminal activities of boiler house share salesman.
    There's a revolving door between the Labour party, charitable sector, public sector, publicly funded broadcast media and the performing arts.
    just as there is between tory ministers and "defence contractots". i know which i think is more dubious
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    edited July 2015
    Scottish polling: SNP landslide next year, but a majority still reject Independence

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJ05ROmWUAA9wfp.jpg
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Walker's announcement live here
    http://abcnews.go.com/live?stream=1
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    SeanT said:


    The Italian cover is pretty. Perhaps overly so

    Yes, too pretty, and not bleak enough for Torran.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    Sean_F said:

    Then, put the boot in. You have 332 MP's, plus another 12 who'll generally side with you.

    One has to choose the right battles (as Maggie was careful to do).

    I said, before the 2010 election, that it would take three terms to get the country back on track. 2010-2015 was much more successful in that respect than seemed possible on the morning after the election, but even so didn't allow as rapid progress as a majority government would have allowed. Now there is a majority, but it is small, and there's a hell of a lot to do with only a limited stock of political capital. Osborne (rightly) spent a lot of that last week. There's the EU referendum, which will absorb more political capital. UKIP don't help. One has to be realistic.
    To be fair, I think you're broadly right. The Tories are implementing the vast majority of their manifesto. And more besides that pleases me, such as the 2% GDP on defence.

    Where I've been (and continue to be) disappointed is on the continuity of new-labour socio-cultural priorities, pussyfooting around on standing up meaningfully for British values against Islamism (although there are signs of improvement), immigration, and the EU.

    So far, I'd say this government is better than the coalition. I hope that continues.
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