I am not sure how any referendum can be properly held with so little time for proper examination of the issues. The result is more about emotion and gut reaction rather than detailed consideration of the question. Viewed in that light, this result was pretty much inevitable.
Prediction: the French will call for a second referendum to be held in 6 months time.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Right and Left were responsible but under Samaras Greece was at least beginning to recover, it achieved a primary government surplus in 2013, returned to growth in the second quarter of 2014 and was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone in the third quarter
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Certainly the attempt to blame the Greek mess on lefty thinking alone would be unfair, though pending a great deal off the back of this referendum win, the current lot will have made things even worse. If they can get a better deal, then apparently the 'politics of the student union' as has been commented many times among the commentariat, will have been more effective than I had realised.
Sorry, but you dodged the question, but I'm generous, how about another try at answering?
I didn't know which party in Greece dropped it in this mess to start with, though I presumed from your sarcastic questioning it was a right wing one. As I am not a right winger nor have I castigated the left for dropping Greece in its current mess, I answered the question in the most appropriate form I could, in saying it was unfair to blame it on the left alone, as I know people have done, as well as noting that should Tsipras and co get a good deal, their seemingly infantile tactics will have been vindicated, much to my surprise.
I shall be generous and ask why you think I am required to answer the question more directly than that? That would seem to presuppose I have some partisan reason to wish to avoid criticising right wingers, wherever they may be found, and that is quite unfounded.
I assure you, my cautious answers to such a question are a reflection of my natural habit of, generally though not universally, sitting on the fence, not least because I regard the left-right spectrum as largely tribal nonsense and so found the question to be a loaded one.
Can I just say, hark at some in this thread who have all these pithy words of wisdom for Greece: 'Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.' Yet are these same people not anti-austerity Labour voters advocating more deficit-funded public spending for the UK? Strange how they seem quite prepared to advocate hair shirts and slashed public sector pensions for other countries.
Those are my words, and I have consistently argued for sound money and a balanced budget. I am not an "anti-austerity Labour voter"; I am a LibDem, of the Orange Book variety.
Who cares how you vote? What you ARE is a supercilious little verruca of a man, modestly oozing the pus of europhilia.
Mr. Eagles, and Mr. Foxinsox, Pyrrhus was an Epirot.
Mr. Eagles, winning the war is leaving the eurozone. Which the Greeks don't want to do.
Winning the war is making the Germans work until they are 70 so they can pay the Greeks to retire at 55
According to the OECD, the effective age of men retiring in Germany is 62.1 and in Greece it is 61.9. Not a lot of difference in spite of all the misinformation in recent weeks.
That is because the Greek system is an extreme version of what happens in places such as France - if you are in one of the politically favored groups, you get great pensions, cheap housing etc. If you aren't part of the "thing" you are stuffed.
Mr. Eagles, and Mr. Foxinsox, Pyrrhus was an Epirot.
Mr. Eagles, winning the war is leaving the eurozone. Which the Greeks don't want to do.
Winning the war is making the Germans work until they are 70 so they can pay the Greeks to retire at 55
According to the OECD, the effective age of men retiring in Germany is 62.1 and in Greece it is 61.9. Not a lot of difference in spite of all the misinformation in recent weeks.
It would be interesting to compare the public / private sector retirement age figures. I suspect people in the German public sector work a lot longer than Greeks, with the figures for private sector workers the other way round.
Mr. Eagles, and Mr. Foxinsox, Pyrrhus was an Epirot.
Mr. Eagles, winning the war is leaving the eurozone. Which the Greeks don't want to do.
Winning the war is making the Germans work until they are 70 so they can pay the Greeks to retire at 55
According to the OECD, the effective age of men retiring in Germany is 62.1 and in Greece it is 61.9. Not a lot of difference in spite of all the misinformation in recent weeks.
I agree that Greece should only have joined the Euro after it had sorted out its economy; but it could have worked if it had reformed its economy concurrently.
I have made over 8000 posts and you will not find one where I have advocated either the UK or any other country joining the Euro. Having joined though they are obliged to follow the rules.
You are very tiresome in the way you misrepresent my views.
I misrepresent nothing. You consistently make posts trying to excuse the behaviour of the EU and pretend that all the blame lies with the Greeks alone. You consistently try to deflect attention from the basic fundamental issues of a single currency without a single state and attack Eurosceptics when they make that contention - the same contention we have made for the last 2 decades and which people like you have consistently denied.
The famous phrase we used when Eurofanatics - chief amongst them the party you still support - were trying to push us into the Single Currency saying it was inevitable was:
"Everyone said the Titanic would set sail and they were right. It still didn't make it a good idea to be on board."
Unfortunately Greece are the Third Class Steerage passengers locked below decks.
While I agree with your point, that never happened outside of Hollywood dramatisation. Locking people below deck on a sinking ship would have led to murder charges.
I know. I just thought it was too good an analogy to miss. :-)
I am not sure how any referendum can be properly held with so little time for proper examination of the issues. The result is more about emotion and gut reaction rather than detailed consideration of the question. Viewed in that light, this result was pretty much inevitable.
Prediction: the French will call for a second referendum to be held in 6 months time.
On the basis that this one was on a deal that was expired, and they will come up with a new deal now, and so until a vote is on a deal actually on the table, Greece can stay in the Euro with a lifeline? I'm still trying to work out how they'll all phrase a pullback, I think they've actually been surprised by this.
Can I just say, hark at some in this thread who have all these pithy words of wisdom for Greece: 'Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.' Yet are these same people not anti-austerity Labour voters advocating more deficit-funded public spending for the UK? Strange how they seem quite prepared to advocate hair shirts and slashed public sector pensions for other countries.
Those are my words, and I have consistently argued for sound money and a balanced budget. I am not an "anti-austerity Labour voter"; I am a LibDem, of the Orange Book variety.
Who cares how you vote? What you ARE is a supercilious little verruca of a man, modestly oozing the pus of europhilia.
Bet you are wishing you were back with my third rate insults now aren't you Fox. :-)
Itv News Every Greek region and every Greek island voted for NO without any exceptions.
That's good news. At least it was a decisive result so whatever happens next is not going to lead to regional tensions on top of everything else.
Indeed... That certainly had to be a concern but as pointed out on here more than once, reality when it kicks in may mean something different. On balance I think they did the right thing but either way attitudes and the way they go about business is going to need to change very quickly if they are to have any hope.
Tsipras is well known to be a Game Theory Geek. He has gambled his country's economic future on the premise that a No vote would strengthen his negotiating position. I don't think think he's right. In fact if he's faced down by the EU grandees over the next few days and weeks and it all turn very sour, his electorate will soon see him as a petty con man and swindler.
They should have kept in mind Virgil's prophetic warning, "Beware of Geeks bearing grifts."
I agree that Greece should only have joined the Euro after it had sorted out its economy; but it could have worked if it had reformed its economy concurrently.
I have made over 8000 posts and you will not find one where I have advocated either the UK or any other country joining the Euro. Having joined though they are obliged to follow the rules.
You are very tiresome in the way you misrepresent my views.
I misrepresent nothing. You consistently make posts trying to excuse the behaviour of the EU and pretend that all the blame lies with the Greeks alone. You consistently try to deflect attention from the basic fundamental issues of a single currency without a single state and attack Eurosceptics when they make that contention - the same contention we have made for the last 2 decades and which people like you have consistently denied.
The famous phrase we used when Eurofanatics - chief amongst them the party you still support - were trying to push us into the Single Currency saying it was inevitable was:
"Everyone said the Titanic would set sail and they were right. It still didn't make it a good idea to be on board."
Unfortunately Greece are the Third Class Steerage passengers locked below decks.
Can you link to a single post where I have denied that currency union requires political union?
If not then you misrepresent my views.
Nope. You have consistently denied that political union is the aim of the EU and at the same time you have continued to defend the idiocy of the Eurozone and the EU as a whole. At best those two positions are logically inconsistent and I tend towards believing your position such as it is is disingenuous.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Right and Left were responsible but under Samaras Greece was at least beginning to recover, it achieved a primary government surplus in 2013, returned to growth in the second quarter of 2014 and was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone in the third quarter
Mr. Eagles, and Mr. Foxinsox, Pyrrhus was an Epirot.
Mr. Eagles, winning the war is leaving the eurozone. Which the Greeks don't want to do.
Winning the war is making the Germans work until they are 70 so they can pay the Greeks to retire at 55
According to the OECD, the effective age of men retiring in Germany is 62.1 and in Greece it is 61.9. Not a lot of difference in spite of all the misinformation in recent weeks.
It would be interesting to compare the public / private sector retirement age figures. I suspect people in the German public sector work a lot longer than Greeks, with the figures for private sector workers the other way round.
I can't find any stats on that so it is just guesswork. I don't know why German private sector workers would retire earlier than Greeks. I just don't know.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Certainly the attempt to blame the Greek mess on lefty thinking alone would be unfair, though pending a great deal off the back of this referendum win, the current lot will have made things even worse. If they can get a better deal, then apparently the 'politics of the student union' as has been commented many times among the commentariat, will have been more effective than I had realised.
Sorry, but you dodged the question, but I'm generous, how about another try at answering?
I didn't know which party in Greece dropped it in this mess to start with, though I presumed from your sarcastic questioning it was a right wing one. As I am not a right winger nor have I castigated the left for dropping Greece in its current mess, I answered the question in the most appropriate form I could, in saying it was unfair to blame it on the left alone, as I know people have done, as well as noting that should Tsipras and co get a good deal, their seemingly infantile tactics will have been vindicated, much to my surprise.
I shall be generous and ask why you think I am required to answer the question more directly than that? That would seem to presuppose I have some partisan reason to wish to avoid criticising right wingers, wherever they may be found, and that is quite unfounded.
I assure you, my cautious answers to such a question are a reflection of my natural habit of, generally though not universally, sitting on the fence, not least because I regard the left-right spectrum as largely tribal nonsense and so found the question to be a loaded one.
Sorry, but I expected to see answers that showed at least a minimal understanding of the situation that the Greeks are under.
So, a nursery level lesson. The Greek government bau
'The Foreign Office is facing serious questions tonight over the revelation that it paid £1.4 million to a security firm run by its own former advisers to combat Islamic extremism in Tunisia before the beach massacre.
The former Tunisian national security minister who set up the unit told The Mail on Sunday that he could not ‘blame people in England who must be asking where all their money has gone’.
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) paid £1,422,684 to Aktis in the 12 months before May for its anti-terrorism project in Tunisia, figures seen by The Mail on Sunday reveal. The Department for International Development (DFID) gave the firm a further £158,881 for ‘project delivery costs and supplier services’ over the same period.'
Mr. Eagles, and Mr. Foxinsox, Pyrrhus was an Epirot.
Mr. Eagles, winning the war is leaving the eurozone. Which the Greeks don't want to do.
Winning the war is making the Germans work until they are 70 so they can pay the Greeks to retire at 55
According to the OECD, the effective age of men retiring in Germany is 62.1 and in Greece it is 61.9. Not a lot of difference in spite of all the misinformation in recent weeks.
That is because the Greek system is an extreme version of what happens in places such as France - if you are in one of the politically favored groups, you get great pensions, cheap housing etc. If you aren't part of the "thing" you are stuffed.
Thjat doesn't explain why the average effective retirement age of Germans and Greeks are very similar.
Can I just say, hark at some in this thread who have all these pithy words of wisdom for Greece: 'Instead they used the cheap money to run up debts and have a party.' Yet are these same people not anti-austerity Labour voters advocating more deficit-funded public spending for the UK? Strange how they seem quite prepared to advocate hair shirts and slashed public sector pensions for other countries.
Those are my words, and I have consistently argued for sound money and a balanced budget. I am not an "anti-austerity Labour voter"; I am a LibDem, of the Orange Book variety.
Who cares how you vote? What you ARE is a supercilious little verruca of a man, modestly oozing the pus of europhilia.
Bet you are wishing you were back with my third rate insults now aren't you Fox. :-)
SeanT is just a narcissist, at least you engage with the issues. Our difference is largely one of philosophy, indeed on a number of issues we are not far apart.
I would like to see us remain in the EU; but am critical of many aspects of it. In particular I would like more democratic accountability, and for a fairer budget with fewer pork barrelling of special interests.
Martin Selmayr retweeted Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.
Wow. Doesn't sound good for Syrizia.
Wait until the crowds stop cheering and get angry when what was promised isn't delivered.
Nothing was promised. The only certainty was what would happen if they voted Yes.
Tsipras promised again and again that it wasn't a vote against being in the Euro. If it emerges that he was printing Drachma all along I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.
I'm sure Tsipras and Varoufakis have a plan which will have dramatic consequences but I don't think it will in any way resemble what might look like the obvious solution.
But there is no legal mechanism for a country to leave the euro, so they weren't wrong.
De facto is as de facto does. They can argue technicalities and legalities all they like, if it transpires Greece can in effect be forced out somehow, that have to deal with the consequences of that. Conversely, the other side have some explaining to do about the claims this was a vote on the Euro if it turns out Greece will keep using it, and acting as if they suddenly realised they had no legal means to enforce that won't cut it.
I think it is fair to say that it is a tragedy for people voting NO under a false prospectus. If they have voted to reject the terms then they have voted to reject any mechanism which can rationally support them in their troubles. Voting NO means you have to be prepared for the alternative.
Its one thing to have a referendum on something constitutional, something that is achievable. But the Greeks have voted in effect to reject their lender of last resort. They are entitled to but it is insane. Voting NO means they have moved beyond the last resort. Of course the lenders might cave in. But that in the end of course will save no one, not if it means everyone can vote NO and expect to have a sunny day tomorrow with only a semblance of scattered showers.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Certainly the attempt to blame the Greek mess on lefty thinking alone would be unfair, though pending a great deal off the back of this referendum win, the current lot will have made things even worse. If they can get a better deal, then apparently the 'politics of the student union' as has been commented many times among the commentariat, will have been more effective than I had realised.
Sorry, but you dodged the question, but I'm generous, how about another try at answering?
.
Sorry, but I expected to see answers that showed at least a minimal understanding of the situation that the Greeks are under.
Spare me the condescension, thank you. I'm aware of the situation, I just don't recall which party was in power when this 'started', largely because many of the issues are longstanding ones not merely the falsities in play around Greece's accession into the Eurozone and the subsequent actions which precipitated the current crises, so when it 'started' is less clear to me* and pretty irrelevant as the more pressing concern would seem to be the way the whole system was set up and the failure to come up with solutions in the years since the crises began.
*Mr Tyndall makes this very point better than I. My mistake was assuming you might consider not mocking someone for what on the balance of probability was probably inelegant phrasing rather than an admission of idiocy.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Tsipras is well known to be a Game Theory Geek. He has gambled his country's economic future on the premise that a No vote would strengthen his negotiating position. I don't think think he's right. In fact if he's faced down by the EU grandees over the next few days and weeks and it all turn very sour, his electorate will soon see him as a petty con man and swindler.
They should have kept in mind Virgil's prophetic warning, "Beware of Geeks bearing grifts."
Hi stjohn - Great to hear from you. Haven't seen much of you lately on PB.
I think Tsipras thinks the Eurocrats have more to lose if this all goes down than the Greeks have, and that they will therefore compromise. I think he is right.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Certainly the attempt to blame the Greek mess on lefty thinking alone would be unfair, though pending a great deal off the back of this referendum win, the current lot will have made things even worse. If they can get a better deal, then apparently the 'politics of the student union' as has been commented many times among the commentariat, will have been more effective than I had realised.
Sorry, but you dodged the question, but I'm generous, how about another try at answering?
I didn't know which party in Greece dropped it in this mess to start with, though I presumed from your sarcastic questioning it was a right wing one. As I am not a right winger nor have I castigated the left for dropping Greece in its current mess, I answered the question in the most appropriate form I could, in saying it was unfair to blame it on the left alone, as I know people have done, as well as noting that should Tsipras and co get a good deal, their seemingly infantile tactics will have been vindicated, much to my surprise.
I shall be generous and ask why you think I am required to answer the question more directly than that? That would seem to presuppose I have some partisan reason to wish to avoid criticising right wingers, wherever they may be found, and that is quite unfounded.
I assure you, my cautious answers to such a question are a reflection of my natural habit of, generally though not universally, sitting on the fence, not least because I regard the left-right spectrum as largely tribal nonsense and so found the question to be a loaded one.
Sorry, but I expected to see answers that showed at least a minimal understanding of the situation that the Greeks are under.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Martin Selmayr retweeted Hugo Dixon @Hugodixon 58m58 minutes ago Hellas Great tragedy of Greek referendum is that many of those who voted NO probably don't realise what is about to hit them
Martin Selmayr is Jean-Claude Juncker's head of cabinet.
Wow. Doesn't sound good for Syrizia.
Wait until the crowds stop cheering and get angry when what was promised isn't delivered.
Nothing was promised. The only certainty was what would happen if they voted Yes.
Tsipras promised again and again that it wasn't a vote against being in the Euro. If it emerges that he was printing Drachma all along I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.
I'm sure Tsipras and Varoufakis have a plan which will have dramatic consequences but I don't think it will in any way resemble what might look like the obvious solution.
But there is no legal mechanism for a country to leave the euro, so they weren't wrong.
De facto is as de facto does. They can argue technicalities and legalities all they like, if it transpires Greece can in effect be forced out somehow, that have to deal with the consequences of that. Conversely, the other side have some explaining to do about the claims this was a vote on the Euro if it turns out Greece will keep using it, and acting as if they suddenly realised they had no legal means to enforce that won't cut it.
They do of course have recourse to the 1969 Vienna Convention of Treaties which would allow them, if there claims were upheld, to have the whole Eurozone treaty declared void.
'The Foreign Office is facing serious questions tonight over the revelation that it paid £1.4 million to a security firm run by its own former advisers to combat Islamic extremism in Tunisia before the beach massacre. [edited to snippety snip a chunky post]
If nothing had happened in Tunisia then someone would be saying it was sunlounger jobs for the boys in a safe beach resort when all of the real action was happening far away down the coast. You can't win with this sort of story.
Well, I'm feeling thin skinned this evening and I'm tired, so having been insulted for the crime of not recalling the political affiliation of some party at an undetermined point in recent Greek political history (clearly an admission of knowing absolutely nothing about the subject matter at all), I think I'll call it quits. The only amusement left in the Greece situation will be who can make the most tortuously worded defence of a climbdown in position, but either way many ordinary Greeks will feel worse before they feel better.
Two dead and two hospitalised in LIGHTNING strike in Brecon Beacons
Four hill-walkers hit by bolt as they walked on Brecon Beacons peaks Air ambulance rushed two to hospital, but both believed to have since died One person undergoing treatment in specialist burns unit in Swansea Storms struck at around midday as ramblers were walking in Pen Y Fan
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Right and Left were responsible but under Samaras Greece was at least beginning to recover, it achieved a primary government surplus in 2013, returned to growth in the second quarter of 2014 and was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone in the third quarter
And then?
And then he got voted out!
Er no. What you missed out was the fact that in spite of the GDP growth, Greek debt increased between 2011 when Samaras came to power and 2015 when he left from 146% of GDP to 174% of GDP.
Which simply reinforces what I was saying. It doesn't matter what the Greek's did, under the IMF and EU bail out rules - which Samaras supported and was enforcing - debt was only going to go one way and that was up.
Mr. Eagles, vielleicht. Would you rather be in Germany or Greece's shoes?
Germany's shoes. The Greeks, not them, are close to not having a pot to piss in.
An apt analogy. The Greeks in fact have thrown away the pot and are busy pissing neither in nor out of the tent, but all over their own shoes. And more than that (and indeed worse than that) they have not only run out of lenders of last resort to blame, but also governments. They have literally only themselves to blame.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
@lindayueh: Greek FM:position of Greece in € is non-negotiable. Liquidity will return with the agreement. Europe will not be left in parallel currencies
Greek companies are close to announcing mass redundancies due to financing issues due to the banking crisis there - somebody called Preston(?) with independent hair on BBC World News.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013. In any case while it was not perfect it was rather better than it is now
Exactly, Greece has carried the burden of propping up the French and German banking systems, the new loans they were given only increased the problem. They have a solvency problem not a liquidity problem, large scale debt forgiveness has always been necessary, it is the EU who have been responsible for this outcome and birthed Syriza.
Oh pu'lease.
German and French banks own about EUR8bn of Greek debt between them. It's peanuts.
The first bail out was very helpful to Credit Agricole, EuroHypo, and others not a million miles from Paris and Berlin.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013
And yet its debt was still increasing and would continue to increase no matter what Samaras or any other Greek leader did. This is the bit you are missing. The deck was stacked in such a way that they could never get back on track. Eventually they would run out of cuts they could make. The IMF themselves have now recognised this after years of pretending it would work. Go read their latest report on Greece where they say it was and is impossible for Greece to recover without debt relief.
Yes, saw that today. According to the Filth it's freedom of speech, freedom of expression and all that sort of excellent thing.
But if he worked for me and I exercised some freedom of expression by sacking him on the spot on Monday morning because I didn't like what he did and I feared getting my throat cut in the office then I'd be up in front of the thought polis within seconds.
Mr. Tyson, I forget if you're still in Italy. If so, what's the reaction there?
I currently cannot hear myself think through cheering crowds- sadly, though not for the Greek vote, but for Jovanotti (the Italian Robbie Williams) who is playing a mile or so away from where I live.
I think the Italians have mixed feelings on this that cut across party, ideology and emotions.
Yes, saw that today. According to the Filth it's freedom of speech, freedom of expression and all that sort of excellent thing.
But if he worked for me and I exercised some freedom of expression by sacking him on the spot on Monday morning because I didn't like what he did and I feared getting my throat cut in the office then I'd be up in front of the thought polis within seconds.
You don't REALLY think anyone would criticise that?
Tsipras is well known to be a Game Theory Geek. He has gambled his country's economic future on the premise that a No vote would strengthen his negotiating position. I don't think think he's right. In fact if he's faced down by the EU grandees over the next few days and weeks and it all turn very sour, his electorate will soon see him as a petty con man and swindler.
They should have kept in mind Virgil's prophetic warning, "Beware of Geeks bearing grifts."
Hi stjohn - Great to hear from you. Haven't seen much of you lately on PB.
I think Tsipras thinks the Eurocrats have more to lose if this all goes down than the Greeks have, and that they will therefore compromise. I think he is right.
Hi Barnesian. I hope you are right. Good to hear from you too.
The ECB has the short-term stuff, which is what really matters here. The long-term debt has already been structured to be rendered sustainable to any but the most profligate spendthrift.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013
And yet its debt was still increasing and would continue to increase no matter what Samaras or any other Greek leader did. This is the bit you are missing. The deck was stacked in such a way that they could never get back on track. Eventually they would run out of cuts they could make. The IMF themselves have now recognised this after years of pretending it would work. Go read their latest report on Greece where they say it was and is impossible for Greece to recover without debt relief.
Exactly, Greece has carried the burden of propping up the French and German banking systems, the new loans they were given only increased the problem. They have a solvency problem not a liquidity problem, large scale debt forgiveness has always been necessary, it is the EU who have been responsible for this outcome and birthed Syriza.
Oh pu'lease.
German and French banks own about EUR8bn of Greek debt between them. It's peanuts.
The first bail out was very helpful to Credit Agricole, EuroHypo, and others not a million miles from Paris and Berlin.
And to several UK banks too.
But above all else, to the Greeks who got to keep their banking system and all the money that was in it, money we've been seeing aired more publicly in the last five weeks.
Yes, saw that today. According to the Filth it's freedom of speech, freedom of expression and all that sort of excellent thing.
But if he worked for me and I exercised some freedom of expression by sacking him on the spot on Monday morning because I didn't like what he did and I feared getting my throat cut in the office then I'd be up in front of the thought polis within seconds.
I expect to see some guardianista style hypocrisy over this and the confederate flag tomorrow, maybe from Tories on here
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013. In any case while it was not perfect it was rather better than it is now
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013
And yet its debt was still increasing and would continue to increase no matter what Samaras or any other Greek leader did. This is the bit you are missing. The deck was stacked in such a way that they could never get back on track. Eventually they would run out of cuts they could make. The IMF themselves have now recognised this after years of pretending it would work. Go read their latest report on Greece where they say it was and is impossible for Greece to recover without debt relief.
Or Grexit which is now the most likely result
Grexit won't make any difference to the fact that the Greeks still need a massive cut in debt.
Greece is set to become the biggest economic petri-dish in the world.
Bitcoin has a much tighter supply than other currency. Issuing bitcoin IOUs would at least mean that the IOU is redeemable, while I for one would be reluctant to accept a Syrizia IOU!
But surely the problem is that in order to get bitcoins you have to have some hard currency to buy them with?
The ECB has the short-term stuff, which is what really matters here. The long-term debt has already been structured to be rendered sustainable to any but the most profligate spendthrift.
Not according to many analysts including some from the IMF it hasn't.
Yes, saw that today. According to the Filth it's freedom of speech, freedom of expression and all that sort of excellent thing.
But if he worked for me and I exercised some freedom of expression by sacking him on the spot on Monday morning because I didn't like what he did and I feared getting my throat cut in the office then I'd be up in front of the thought polis within seconds.
I expect to see some guardianista style hypocrisy over this and the confederate flag tomorrow, maybe from Tories on here
BBC World News has a weekly program called "Dateline London", purporting to be London based foreign correspondents take on issues in the UK, hosted by Gavin Esslar. Every episode I've seen has 3 foreign folks plus a Guardian journo from the UK. The journo varies, but it's always from the Guardian.
What next, now that Tsipras has a clear mandate to perform a modern-day scale-up of the miracle of the loaves and fishes?
1. The 100% safe prediction in the short term is that the Greeks will find out on Tuesday that the government was lying to them when it said the banks will re-open. If they are very lucky indeed, there will be a facility for customers to access very small amounts of cash from their accounts, but even that is dubious and in any case won't last long. Greek banks are now bust, which means most Greek businesses are bust. The economy, which has come to an almost total stop in the last few days, will remain in near-total lockdown.
2. Another very safe prediction is that the government will appropriate all the Euro cash and deposits (such as they are) which it can lay its hands on, in order to pay for the most desperately urgent purchases (food, fuel and medicines) . It will presumably issue some kind of worthless IOUs to those whose money is confiscated.
3. The only way the government can continue to operate at all now is by paying pensions and public-sector wages with IOUs. That it turn will require some kind of emergency legislation to force traders to accept these as legal tender. In this way, the exit from the Eurozone will be not with a bang, but a whimper.
4. The main focus of the ECB, Eurozone and EU generally will switch to damage limitation and avoiding contagion. Greece is, after all, tiny, and whatever happens now is Syriza's responsibility. The rest of the EU now has no choice but to write them off as a hopeless case, and hope that, in a few years' time when they've got their act together, they can rejoin the Euro.
5. There will be short-term turbulence in the financial markets, but I don't think this is going to be as big a shock to the EU as some people think. The fact that we seem to be heading for a denouement may even help.
6. Unfortunately the denouement is going to be horrendous in Greece itself. A military coup can't be ruled out.
7. The EU will provide humanitarian aid (food parcels etc), to avert the worst of the disaster.
8. Tsipras and Varoufakis will claim it's a great triumph, no matter how bad it gets
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013
And yet its debt was still increasing and would continue to increase no matter what Samaras or any other Greek leader did. This is the bit you are missing. The deck was stacked in such a way that they could never get back on track. Eventually they would run out of cuts they could make. The IMF themselves have now recognised this after years of pretending it would work. Go read their latest report on Greece where they say it was and is impossible for Greece to recover without debt relief.
Or Grexit which is now the most likely result
Grexit won't make any difference to the fact that the Greeks still need a massive cut in debt.
Most of the austerity was needed to keep them in the eurozone, returned to the Drachma their debt becomes less pressing
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013. In any case while it was not perfect it was rather better than it is now
On greek opinion polls showing most greeks wanting to stay in the Euro, I think we should take them with a mountain size pinch of salt.
Greek opinion polls have a good record only on voting intentions just before a GE probably because that's the only thing they actually get tested in reality, but as proved tonight they are really rubbish or completely biased at surveying public opinion.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013. In any case while it was not perfect it was rather better than it is now
Yes, saw that today. According to the Filth it's freedom of speech, freedom of expression and all that sort of excellent thing.
But if he worked for me and I exercised some freedom of expression by sacking him on the spot on Monday morning because I didn't like what he did and I feared getting my throat cut in the office then I'd be up in front of the thought polis within seconds.
I expect to see some guardianista style hypocrisy over this and the confederate flag tomorrow, maybe from Tories on here
On the other hand this was the subject of Fridays prayers in Leeds:
Might also be worth having a peek over at China. Massive shares sell-off underway. It culd get nasty. Should that happen it will put Greece in the deepest, darkest shade.
Oh, and BTW: Seeing this as some kind of triumphant blow against the EU is just ludicrous. It's a triumphant blow against the EU in the sense that an injured drunk lashing out against a doctor who's trying to help him is a triumphant blow.
On greek opinion polls showing most greeks wanting to stay in the Euro, I think we should take them with a mountain size pinch of salt.
Greek opinion polls have a good record only on voting intentions just before a GE probably because that's the only thing they actually get tested in reality, but as proved tonight they are really rubbish or completely biased at surveying public opinion.
Most polls predicted a No, just a narrow not a big No
Oh, and BTW: Seeing this as some kind of triumphant blow against the EU is just ludicrous. It's a triumphant blow against the EU in the sense that an injured drunk lashing out against a doctor who's trying to help him is a triumphant blow.
When did the EU actually succeed in solving any problem? How can you claim they are like doctors when the EU has cured nothing?
On greek opinion polls showing most greeks wanting to stay in the Euro, I think we should take them with a mountain size pinch of salt.
Greek opinion polls have a good record only on voting intentions just before a GE probably because that's the only thing they actually get tested in reality, but as proved tonight they are really rubbish or completely biased at surveying public opinion.
Most polls predicted a No, just a narrow not a big No
From neck to neck with a +-1% to a more than 20% blowout that is a polling disgrace larger than any Ashcroft constituency poll.
Yes, saw that today. According to the Filth it's freedom of speech, freedom of expression and all that sort of excellent thing.
But if he worked for me and I exercised some freedom of expression by sacking him on the spot on Monday morning because I didn't like what he did and I feared getting my throat cut in the office then I'd be up in front of the thought polis within seconds.
I expect to see some guardianista style hypocrisy over this and the confederate flag tomorrow, maybe from Tories on here
Regarding the Confederate flag - or more accurately the Confederate Battle Flag, as most Americans wouldn't know the confederate flag if they fell over it - TVLand has announced it will no longer show The Dukes of Hazard, as the car (The General Lee) has the confederate battle flag.
Bubba Watson, who owns the General Lee car from the show, has announced he will paint over the confederate battle flag on its roof.
The latest cry is for buildings / roads / anything you can think of - named after southern sympathizers / slave owners / confederate generals etc - should be renamed.
It's hard to see where this nonsense will stop. Just how far are folks prepared to go in scrubbing out history?
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were both slave owners. Will renaming Washington DC be the ultimate goal? Is one of the 5 authors - and original drafter - of the Declaration of Independence to be airbrushed out of history?
Those who fly and support the Confederate battle flag claim it is "heritage, not hate", and indeed I know several people who had relatives die fighting for the confederacy.
The problem is that the flag did not reappear until the early 1960s, as a rallying symbol for those opposed to the civil rights movement.
What next, now that Tsipras has a clear mandate to perform a modern-day scale-up of the miracle of the loaves and fishes?
1. The 100% safe prediction in the short term is that the Greeks will find out on Tuesday that the government was lying to them when it said the banks will re-open. If they are very lucky indeed, there will be a facility for customers to access very small amounts of cash from their accounts, but even that is dubious and in any case won't last long. Greek banks are now bust, which means most Greek businesses are bust. The economy, which has come to an almost total stop in the last few days, will remain in near-total lockdown.
2. Another very safe prediction is that the government will appropriate all the Euro cash and deposits (such as they are) which it can lay its hands on, in order to pay for the most desperately urgent purchases (food, fuel and medicines) . It will presumably issue some kind of worthless IOUs to those whose money is confiscated.
3. The only way the government can continue to operate at all now is by paying pensions and public-sector wages with IOUs. That it turn will require some kind of emergency legislation to force traders to accept these as legal tender. In this way, the exit from the Eurozone will be not with a bang, but a whimper.
4. The main focus of the ECB, Eurozone and EU generally will switch to damage limitation and avoiding contagion. Greece is, after all, tiny, and whatever happens now is Syriza's responsibility. The rest of the EU now has no choice but to write them off as a hopeless case, and hope that, in a few years' time when they've got their act together, they can rejoin the Euro.
5. There will be short-term turbulence in the financial markets, but I don't think this is going to be as big a shock to the EU as some people think. The fact that we seem to be heading for a denouement may even help.
6. Unfortunately the denouement is going to be horrendous in Greece itself. A military coup can't be ruled out.
7. The EU will provide humanitarian aid (food parcels etc), to avert the worst of the disaster.
8. Tsipras and Varoufakis will claim it's a great triumph, no matter how bad it gets
What a load of Europhile bollocks.
To begin with there is no way the desperate EU will kick them out, but what makes your post laughable is you say if they get their act together they can rejoin the Euro.
I think that despite some strong competition that is the single most stupid statement I have ever seen on here.
Oh, and BTW: Seeing this as some kind of triumphant blow against the EU is just ludicrous. It's a triumphant blow against the EU in the sense that an injured drunk lashing out against a doctor who's trying to help him is a triumphant blow.
When did the EU actually succeed in solving any problem? How can you claim they are like doctors when the EU has cured nothing?
You can prescribe pills; you can't make the patient take them.
Oh, and BTW: Seeing this as some kind of triumphant blow against the EU is just ludicrous. It's a triumphant blow against the EU in the sense that an injured drunk lashing out against a doctor who's trying to help him is a triumphant blow.
It will undoubtedly change the dynamics of Euroscepticism in this country. There will be a resurgence of hard and even mainstream left opposition to what the EU will have to do now to deal with the Greek situation. Germanophobia risks becoming the new anti-Americanism as a populist pose.
Cameron has been lucky tactically with the timing of his renegotiation, but the coalition that he will face in the referendum could look very different than we imagined.
Two dead and two hospitalised in LIGHTNING strike in Brecon Beacons
Four hill-walkers hit by bolt as they walked on Brecon Beacons peaks Air ambulance rushed two to hospital, but both believed to have since died One person undergoing treatment in specialist burns unit in Swansea Storms struck at around midday as ramblers were walking in Pen Y Fan
The heavens opened on the way back riding from the Sky Ride event in Sheffield today.Wasn't so much cycling as uphill swimming xD - followed by a puncture and then the bloody spare punctured too... meaning I had to push the last 5 miles !
What next, now that Tsipras has a clear mandate to perform a modern-day scale-up of the miracle of the loaves and fishes?
1. The 100% safe prediction in the short term is that the Greeks will find out on Tuesday that the government was lying to them when it said the banks will re-open. If they are very lucky indeed, there will be a facility for customers to access very small amounts of cash from their accounts, but even that is dubious and in any case won't last long. Greek banks are now bust, which means most Greek businesses are bust. The economy, which has come to an almost total stop in the last few days, will remain in near-total lockdown.
2. Another very safe prediction is that the government will appropriate all the Euro cash and deposits (such as they are) which it can lay its hands on, in order to pay for the most desperately urgent purchases (food, fuel and medicines) . It will presumably issue some kind of worthless IOUs to those whose money is confiscated.
3. The only way the government can continue to operate at all now is by paying pensions and public-sector wages with IOUs. That it turn will require some kind of emergency legislation to force traders to accept these as legal tender. In this way, the exit from the Eurozone will be not with a bang, but a whimper.
4. The main focus of the ECB, Eurozone and EU generally will switch to damage limitation and avoiding contagion. Greece is, after all, tiny, and whatever happens now is Syriza's responsibility. The rest of the EU now has no choice but to write them off as a hopeless case, and hope that, in a few years' time when they've got their act together, they can rejoin the Euro.
5. There will be short-term turbulence in the financial markets, but I don't think this is going to be as big a shock to the EU as some people think. The fact that we seem to be heading for a denouement may even help.
6. Unfortunately the denouement is going to be horrendous in Greece itself. A military coup can't be ruled out.
7. The EU will provide humanitarian aid (food parcels etc), to avert the worst of the disaster.
8. Tsipras and Varoufakis will claim it's a great triumph, no matter how bad it gets
Yes, saw that today. According to the Filth it's freedom of speech, freedom of expression and all that sort of excellent thing.
But if he worked for me and I exercised some freedom of expression by sacking him on the spot on Monday morning because I didn't like what he did and I feared getting my throat cut in the office then I'd be up in front of the thought polis within seconds.
I expect to see some guardianista style hypocrisy over this and the confederate flag tomorrow, maybe from Tories on here
Regarding the Confederate flag - or more accurately the Confederate Battle Flag, as most Americans wouldn't know the confederate flag if they fell over it - TVLand has announced it will no longer show The Dukes of Hazard, as the car (The General Lee) has the confederate battle flag.
Bubba Watson, who owns the General Lee car from the show, has announced he will paint over the confederate battle flag on its roof.
The latest cry is for buildings / roads / anything you can think of - named after southern sympathizers / slave owners / confederate generals etc - should be renamed.
It's hard to see where this nonsense will stop. Just how far are folks prepared to go in scrubbing out history?
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were both slave owners. Will renaming Washington DC be the ultimate goal? Is one of the 5 authors - and original drafter - of the Declaration of Independence to be airbrushed out of history?
Those who fly and support the Confederate battle flag claim it is "heritage, not hate", and indeed I know several people who had relatives die fighting for the confederacy.
The problem is that the flag did not reappear until the early 1960s, as a rallying symbol for those opposed to the civil rights movement.
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."
That could have been a standard Hitler speech, but it was the Confederate Vice President. The Confederacy is the American analogue as Nazi Germany is for Germany, time for americans to deal with it like the germans have.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013
And yet its debt was still increasing and would continue to increase no matter what Samaras or any other Greek leader did. This is the bit you are missing. The deck was stacked in such a way that they could never get back on track. Eventually they would run out of cuts they could make. The IMF themselves have now recognised this after years of pretending it would work. Go read their latest report on Greece where they say it was and is impossible for Greece to recover without debt relief.
Or Grexit which is now the most likely result
Grexit won't make any difference to the fact that the Greeks still need a massive cut in debt.
Most of the austerity was needed to keep them in the eurozone, returned to the Drachma their debt becomes less pressing
As does all the corruption and all the graft. With that continuing and expanding its hard to see who would want to be a partner to Greece.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013
And yet its debt was still increasing and would continue to increase no matter what Samaras or any other Greek leader did. This is the bit you are missing. The deck was stacked in such a way that they could never get back on track. Eventually they would run out of cuts they could make. The IMF themselves have now recognised this after years of pretending it would work. Go read their latest report on Greece where they say it was and is impossible for Greece to recover without debt relief.
Or Grexit which is now the most likely result
Grexit won't make any difference to the fact that the Greeks still need a massive cut in debt.
Greek debt-to-GDP is about 175%. Japan's is 220%. Britain's c.1948 was 240%. Greece's is sustainable (and indeed, reduce-able), with discipline and willpower. Indeed, before Syriza took power, it probably was declining given that growth had recently returned to the country.
Oh, and BTW: Seeing this as some kind of triumphant blow against the EU is just ludicrous. It's a triumphant blow against the EU in the sense that an injured drunk lashing out against a doctor who's trying to help him is a triumphant blow.
When did the EU actually succeed in solving any problem? How can you claim they are like doctors when the EU has cured nothing?
You can prescribe pills; you can't make the patient take them.
You can prescribe Cyanide, but it won't cure the patient.
And can I ask, which party in Greece dropped the country in the deep doodah originally? It couldn't have been a right wing one? Of course not. They have a reputation of being honest, trustworthy governance, much like our own.
Depends when you consider the whole mess started. It was the left of centre PASOK that took Greece into the Euro in the first place.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
Yet under Samaras the Greek economy was growing for the first time in 6 years by 2014 and it was beginning to repay its debt
Nope. Debt got worse throughout Samaras' time in power as I said in my previous post. .
Greece was the fastest growing economy in the eurozone by the third quarter of 2014 and achieved a primary government budget surplus in 2013. In any case while it was not perfect it was rather better than it is now
Yes, saw that today. According to the Filth it's freedom of speech, freedom of expression and all that sort of excellent thing.
But if he worked for me and I exercised some freedom of expression by sacking him on the spot on Monday morning because I didn't like what he did and I feared getting my throat cut in the office then I'd be up in front of the thought polis within seconds.
I expect to see some guardianista style hypocrisy over this and the confederate flag tomorrow, maybe from Tories on here
Regarding the Confederate flag - or more accurately the Confederate Battle Flag, as most Americans wouldn't know the confederate flag if they fell over it - TVLand has announced it will no longer show The Dukes of Hazard, as the car (The General Lee) has the confederate battle flag.
Bubba Watson, who owns the General Lee car from the show, has announced he will paint over the confederate battle flag on its roof.
The latest cry is for buildings / roads / anything you can think of - named after southern sympathizers / slave owners / confederate generals etc - should be renamed.
It's hard to see where this nonsense will stop. Just how far are folks prepared to go in scrubbing out history?
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were both slave owners. Will renaming Washington DC be the ultimate goal? Is one of the 5 authors - and original drafter - of the Declaration of Independence to be airbrushed out of history?
Those who fly and support the Confederate battle flag claim it is "heritage, not hate", and indeed I know several people who had relatives die fighting for the confederacy.
The problem is that the flag did not reappear until the early 1960s, as a rallying symbol for those opposed to the civil rights movement.
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."
That could have been a standard Hitler speech, but it was the Confederate Vice President. The Confederacy is the American analogue as Nazi Germany is for Germany, time for americans to deal with it like the germans have.
Most Americans came to terms with this long ago. It's the Left who are stoking this right now.
Comments
Every Greek region and every Greek island voted for NO without any exceptions.
I shall be generous and ask why you think I am required to answer the question more directly than that? That would seem to presuppose I have some partisan reason to wish to avoid criticising right wingers, wherever they may be found, and that is quite unfounded.
I assure you, my cautious answers to such a question are a reflection of my natural habit of, generally though not universally, sitting on the fence, not least because I regard the left-right spectrum as largely tribal nonsense and so found the question to be a loaded one.
They should have kept in mind Virgil's prophetic warning, "Beware of Geeks bearing grifts."
So, a nursery level lesson. The Greek government bau
'The Foreign Office is facing serious questions tonight over the revelation that it paid £1.4 million to a security firm run by its own former advisers to combat Islamic extremism in Tunisia before the beach massacre.
The former Tunisian national security minister who set up the unit told The Mail on Sunday that he could not ‘blame people in England who must be asking where all their money has gone’.
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) paid £1,422,684 to Aktis in the 12 months before May for its anti-terrorism project in Tunisia, figures seen by The Mail on Sunday reveal. The Department for International Development (DFID) gave the firm a further £158,881 for ‘project delivery costs and supplier services’ over the same period.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3149735/What-did-firm-paid-1-4million-UK-fight-terrorism-Tunisia-money-Foreign-Office-facing-question-1-4m-payment-security-firm-run-former-advisers.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailUK
I would like to see us remain in the EU; but am critical of many aspects of it. In particular I would like more democratic accountability, and for a fairer budget with fewer pork barrelling of special interests.
Its one thing to have a referendum on something constitutional, something that is achievable. But the Greeks have voted in effect to reject their lender of last resort. They are entitled to but it is insane. Voting NO means they have moved beyond the last resort. Of course the lenders might cave in. But that in the end of course will save no one, not if it means everyone can vote NO and expect to have a sunny day tomorrow with only a semblance of scattered showers.
*Mr Tyndall makes this very point better than I. My mistake was assuming you might consider not mocking someone for what on the balance of probability was probably inelegant phrasing rather than an admission of idiocy.
But It was the Right of Centre New Democracy who were in charge at the time of the financial crisis in 2008 and who, when in opposition from 2009 to 2011, opposed both the original bailout from the EU/IMF and the three associated austerity packages. They also opposed the second bailout package in 2011 and only agreed to support it if the Government resigned.
It is they, perhaps far more than the current Tsipras government who are responsible for the mess Greece is now in.
I think Tsipras thinks the Eurocrats have more to lose if this all goes down than the Greeks have, and that they will therefore compromise. I think he is right.
Now wouldn't that be fun.
A pleasant evening to all.
https://twitter.com/danwootton
Which simply reinforces what I was saying. It doesn't matter what the Greek's did, under the IMF and EU bail out rules - which Samaras supported and was enforcing - debt was only going to go one way and that was up.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/617803925408735232?s=09
A good test of Greshams law!
The EFSF indicates they have just E130.9bn (maybe out of date?).
http://www.efsf.europa.eu/about/operations/index.htm
or E143bn
http://www.esm.europa.eu/press/releases/efsf-board-of-directors-reserves-its-rights-to-act-upon-greeces-default.htm
I had read that the total Greek debt was E300bn+.
But if he worked for me and I exercised some freedom of expression by sacking him on the spot on Monday morning because I didn't like what he did and I feared getting my throat cut in the office then I'd be up in front of the thought polis within seconds.
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/02/15/bitcoin-a-flawed-currency-blueprint-with-a-potentially-useful-application-for-the-eurozone/
Greece is set to become the biggest economic petri-dish in the world.
I think the Italians have mixed feelings on this that cut across party, ideology and emotions.
But above all else, to the Greeks who got to keep their banking system and all the money that was in it, money we've been seeing aired more publicly in the last five weeks.
EFSF 150bn
ECB 25bn
IMF 40bn
EU 20bn
Private sector 60bn
Give or take
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-spending-to-gdp
But surely the problem is that in order to get bitcoins you have to have some hard currency to buy them with?
1. The 100% safe prediction in the short term is that the Greeks will find out on Tuesday that the government was lying to them when it said the banks will re-open. If they are very lucky indeed, there will be a facility for customers to access very small amounts of cash from their accounts, but even that is dubious and in any case won't last long. Greek banks are now bust, which means most Greek businesses are bust. The economy, which has come to an almost total stop in the last few days, will remain in near-total lockdown.
2. Another very safe prediction is that the government will appropriate all the Euro cash and deposits (such as they are) which it can lay its hands on, in order to pay for the most desperately urgent purchases (food, fuel and medicines) . It will presumably issue some kind of worthless IOUs to those whose money is confiscated.
3. The only way the government can continue to operate at all now is by paying pensions and public-sector wages with IOUs. That it turn will require some kind of emergency legislation to force traders to accept these as legal tender. In this way, the exit from the Eurozone will be not with a bang, but a whimper.
4. The main focus of the ECB, Eurozone and EU generally will switch to damage limitation and avoiding contagion. Greece is, after all, tiny, and whatever happens now is Syriza's responsibility. The rest of the EU now has no choice but to write them off as a hopeless case, and hope that, in a few years' time when they've got their act together, they can rejoin the Euro.
5. There will be short-term turbulence in the financial markets, but I don't think this is going to be as big a shock to the EU as some people think. The fact that we seem to be heading for a denouement may even help.
6. Unfortunately the denouement is going to be horrendous in Greece itself. A military coup can't be ruled out.
7. The EU will provide humanitarian aid (food parcels etc), to avert the worst of the disaster.
8. Tsipras and Varoufakis will claim it's a great triumph, no matter how bad it gets
The Right r celebrating because they ran out of other ppls money
Greek opinion polls have a good record only on voting intentions just before a GE probably because that's the only thing they actually get tested in reality, but as proved tonight they are really rubbish or completely biased at surveying public opinion.
http://m.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Imam-condemns-8216-poisonous-8217-ideology-Isis/story-26827897-detail/story.html
Single To Win
Greece To Vote Not Approved/No To Bailout Plan @ 13/8Eurozone SpecialOpen
What Will Be The Outcome Of The Greek Referendum On The EU Bailout Be?
Stake: £10.00Potential Returns: £26.25
#BOOM
How can you claim they are like doctors when the EU has cured nothing?
Bubba Watson, who owns the General Lee car from the show, has announced he will paint over the confederate battle flag on its roof.
The latest cry is for buildings / roads / anything you can think of - named after southern sympathizers / slave owners / confederate generals etc - should be renamed.
It's hard to see where this nonsense will stop. Just how far are folks prepared to go in scrubbing out history?
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were both slave owners. Will renaming Washington DC be the ultimate goal? Is one of the 5 authors - and original drafter - of the Declaration of Independence to be airbrushed out of history?
Those who fly and support the Confederate battle flag claim it is "heritage, not hate", and indeed I know several people who had relatives die fighting for the confederacy.
The problem is that the flag did not reappear until the early 1960s, as a rallying symbol for those opposed to the civil rights movement.
History in the South is very much alive.
To begin with there is no way the desperate EU will kick them out, but what makes your post laughable is you say if they get their act together they can rejoin the Euro.
I think that despite some strong competition that is the single most stupid statement I have ever seen on here.
Cameron has been lucky tactically with the timing of his renegotiation, but the coalition that he will face in the referendum could look very different than we imagined.
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."
That could have been a standard Hitler speech, but it was the Confederate Vice President.
The Confederacy is the American analogue as Nazi Germany is for Germany, time for americans to deal with it like the germans have.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-18/samaras-confronts-peril-putting-his-greek-record-to-vote
Ryan Heath
Ryan Heath –
French govt insists it too called for a Euro Summit on #Greece. Talked to Merkel first but also 3 #EU presidents my source says.
3:17 pm - 5 Jul 2015
It looks like another massive polling failure to me.
Israel
UK
Greece.
When will it end ?