"One Twitter user, @cboulter49, wrote they wished they could send the First Minister "to ISIS" and added: "They will sh** anything, then they wud [sic] cut her f***** head off."
I think as the MSM is waking up to the fact that Cyber abuse on social media just comes with the territory and there are extremists on all sides. The MSM should only report on criminal behaviour, not on extremists throwing insults at each other.
The Jockish indy question is settled for a generation - time to focus on the knotty Natty problems of rising unemployment, dire growth and poor school attainment north of the border.
Definitely have a big problem with typing in text box this morning Have to refresh every time I post Can't delete backwards of place cursor in the text to change Typing in and nothing appearing within comment box
Is it the site or is it my IPad. Could well be my IPad
For the past couple of weeks, whenever their have been a lot of comments on a thread, this site has been refusing to load the comments for me at all. No problems yet on this thread though.
The Jockish indy question is settled for a generation - time to focus on the knotty Natty problems of rising unemployment, dire growth and poor school attainment north of the border.
If only they would focus on those, and cut out the sort of foul abuse that even our "friend" Malcolm would abhor!
The Jockish indy question is settled for a generation - time to focus on the knotty Natty problems of rising unemployment, dire growth and poor school attainment north of the border.
Quite. Some people forget the reason why the Nats' abuse was a big story - it was because they weren't random users on social media, but rather holders of positions within the SNP, elected councillors or even Parliamentary candidates on occasion. These are people Sturgeon can and must do something about. If the anti-SNP trolls are active members of a political party them I am sure their parties will deal with them too.
In the meantime there is an election next year where the people of Scotland will decide who will be their government for the next 5 years. Maybe we might have these issues debated rather than the endless constitutional crap which was decided in a referendum a year ago.
The Jockish indy question is settled for a generation - time to focus on the knotty Natty problems of rising unemployment, dire growth and poor school attainment north of the border.
If only they would focus on those, and cut out the sort of foul abuse that even our "friend" Malcolm would abhor!
The Sturg seems to have frozen in the headlights - she got power but doesn't know what to do with it other than fight battles already lost.
I am available to write a guest blog : "Is Nicola the new Gordon Brown ?" (QTWTAIY)
terrorism 'expert' on bbc 5live just compared UKIP with ISIS..
Seriously? What did they say?
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
If she really said that, she may well have libelled UKIP members. Libel can be committed by referring to members of a group, as well as to individuals. I can't think of a worse libel than being described as worse than an organisation responsible for mass rape, beheadings, burning people to death in cages, drowning people in cages, throwing people off roofs etc etc.
And, far worse even than this, she is demonstrating the sort of moral obtuseness which can truly be described as decadent, as well as idiotic. If she is an expert on terrorism, God help us.
terrorism 'expert' on bbc 5live just compared UKIP with ISIS..
Seriously? What did they say?
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
I think it was Nick Cohen who said that there is a certain breed of self-hating British left-winger who would blame their own country and the Right for all of the world's ills, and refuse to lift a finger to fight, even if attacks were taking place in their own back yard.
George Orwell said much the same thing about the Left 70 years or so.
This is going to end in a proverbial car crash of epic proportions.
Why??
Two reasons: (1) as LIAMT previously observed, the DPP cannot fetter her own discretion by delegating her decision to another party so her decision to reverse her previous decision is potentially challengeable in the courts; and (2) the issue of fitness to plead will need to be determined by the courts. If the court rules that the defendant is unfit to plead, then there can be no trial and finding of facts. All we will have are allegations, as now.
I would like to request that your government re-examine its position on the issue and support the reconsideration of the request of the Hellenic Republic by the finance ministers of the eurozone with a view to granting it. This decision will contribute to our common goal of reaching a mutually beneficial agreement, to secure fiscal, financial debt sustainability, that will return Greece to growth within the eurozone.
"It should be noted that there is now no intelligentsia that is not in some sense “Left”. ........... The intellectuals could find a function for themselves only in the literary reviews and the left-wing political parties.
The mentality of the English left-wing intelligentsia can be studied in half a dozen weekly and monthly papers. The immediately striking thing about all these papers is their generally negative, querulous attitude, their complete lack at all times of any constructive suggestion. There is little in them except the irresponsible carping of people who have never been and never expect to be in a position of power. Another marked characteristic is the emotional shallowness of people who live in a world of ideas and have little contact with physical reality. Many intellectuals of the Left were flabbily pacifist up to 1935, shrieked for war against Germany in the years 1935-9, and then promptly cooled off when the war started. It is broadly though not precisely true that the people who were most “anti-Fascist” during the Spanish civil war are most defeatist now. And underlying this is the really important fact about so many of the English intelligentsia – their severance from the common culture of the country.
In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God save the King” than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British. "
You can see the same kind of attitude displayed now in the pages of the Guardian when it comes to Islamist extremism.
terrorism 'expert' on bbc 5live just compared UKIP with ISIS..
Seriously? What did they say?
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
If she really said that, she may well have libelled UKIP members. Libel can be committed by referring to members of a group, as well as to individuals. I can't think of a worse libel than being described as worse than an organisation responsible for mass rape, beheadings, burning people to death in cages, drowning people in cages, throwing people off roofs etc etc.
And, far worse even than this, she is demonstrating the sort of moral obtuseness which can truly be described as decadent, as well as idiotic. If she is an expert on terrorism, God help us.
Hello: I was joking, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
The Jockish indy question is settled for a generation - time to focus on the knotty Natty problems of rising unemployment, dire growth and poor school attainment north of the border.
Quite. Some people forget the reason why the Nats' abuse was a big story - it was because they weren't random users on social media, but rather holders of positions within the SNP, elected councillors or even Parliamentary candidates on occasion. These are people Sturgeon can and must do something about. If the anti-SNP trolls are active members of a political party them I am sure their parties will deal with them too.
In the meantime there is an election next year where the people of Scotland will decide who will be their government for the next 5 years. Maybe we might have these issues debated rather than the endless constitutional crap which was decided in a referendum a year ago.
I've given up discussing it - it's just too boring - but whilst there are always idiots of any side of the argument, it's quite clear from reading some of the more intemperate posts from our nationalist friends on here that they think most unionists are fair game and deserving of insult, due to the fact they disagree with them, and they will brook no criticism of their own side.
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
terrorism 'expert' on bbc 5live just compared UKIP with ISIS..
Seriously? What did they say?
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
If she really said that, she may well have libelled UKIP members. Libel can be committed by referring to members of a group, as well as to individuals. I can't think of a worse libel than being described as worse than an organisation responsible for mass rape, beheadings, burning people to death in cages, drowning people in cages, throwing people off roofs etc etc.
And, far worse even than this, she is demonstrating the sort of moral obtuseness which can truly be described as decadent, as well as idiotic. If she is an expert on terrorism, God help us.
Hello: I was joking, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
wow.
IT WAS A JOKE!
What did she/he actually say? A link will do. Thanks.
'The fresh crisis came just a day after the European Council, in an act of hubris, awarded Jacques Delors, the architect of the currency, the title of Honourary Citizen of Europe. The turmoil also comes in the same week the eurozone issued its prized blueprint on "Completing Economic and Monetary Union".
'The fresh crisis came just a day after the European Council, in an act of hubris, awarded Jacques Delors, the architect of the currency, the title of Honourary Citizen of Europe. The turmoil also comes in the same week the eurozone issued its prized blueprint on "Completing Economic and Monetary Union".
I believe the plan is to produce a 8 metre high nude statue of Delors, made out of pure gold.
The Delors award reminds me of the latter days of the Western Empire, when every emperor gave himself overblown and undeserved titles like Restorer of the World [Aurelian also got that accolade, but, as noted here many times, he actually deserved it].
Mr. Glenn, but what happens if they do vote Yes? I thought the deal had been withdrawn.
It has been withdrawn to encourage a "Yes" vote.
What are the chances - if the Greeks vote yes - that the deal then offered to them is even worse - from their perspective - than the one they thought they were voting on?
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
wow.
IT WAS A JOKE!
What did she/he actually say? A link will do. Thanks.
I found it by using "listen again" on R5L. The speaker is on at around 9.30am. Paraphrasing, she said something along the lines of terrorists being on a continuum, with ISIS on one end, and Ukip, BNP and "the extreme right" on the other. Kippers are not terrorists, in her judgement... but they are pretty much on their way.
Am I an evil bastard? I'm enjoying this Greek story. I certainly feel sorry for individual Greeks, especially those who didn't vote socialist over the decades - but in the main I'm finding this denouement hugely satisfying. Please, please, please will the gods let Greece be the thing that knackers the EU.
Indigo I don't see why Javid is any better than Osborne, he is not particularly charismatic and has not been the second most powerful man in government, he has a better backstory than Cameron and Osborne, that is it, and he is also pretty rightwing, Osborne is slightly right of Cameron, Javid further right still
Javid's predicted success I would suspect is combination of his better backstory, and the assumption, which we will see if it pans out, that he will make a good impression at the senior level he is now, while still being fresh enough to the public compared to the old guard he might stand against to make some converts in any leadership contest (whereas ones like May and Boris will be fixed in peoples' minds). Time will tell - he seems pretty bland at present, but perhaps he will shine.
It won't matter how you vote I will choose the next deputy leader says Burnham and it will be a woman.
Labour leadership frontrunner Andy Burnham has promised to appoint a woman as his deputy, even if the party elects a man. The shadow health secretary plans to ditch a long-standing convention which has seen the deputy leader standing in on big occasions, including at Prime Minister's Questions. Instead he has vowed to appoint a Shadow First Secretary of State who will go up against current title holder George Osborne, who is now David Cameron's deputy PM in all but name.
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
wow.
IT WAS A JOKE!
What did she/he actually say? A link will do. Thanks.
I found it by using "listen again" on R5L. The speaker is on at around 9.30am. Paraphrasing, she said something along the lines of terrorists being on a continuum, with ISIS on one end, and Ukip, BNP and "the extreme right" on the other. Kippers are not terrorists, in her judgement... but they are pretty much on their way.
I just murdered a bowl of porridge so she might be on to something
That European court ruling is one of the silliest rulings it has ever given. It should - and I don't say this lightly - be ignored. Only a mentality which thinks that one's view of oneself uncontaminated by such things as actual facts is the most important thing to protect could come up with such nonsense. It's a fundamentally aristocratic "honour is all" state of mind, incompatible IMO with a truly democratic "see the world as it is not as we would like it to be" attitude.
'The fresh crisis came just a day after the European Council, in an act of hubris, awarded Jacques Delors, the architect of the currency, the title of Honourary Citizen of Europe. The turmoil also comes in the same week the eurozone issued its prized blueprint on "Completing Economic and Monetary Union".
I believe the plan is to produce a 8 metre high nude statue of Delors, made out of pure gold.
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
wow.
IT WAS A JOKE!
What did she/he actually say? A link will do. Thanks.
I found it by using "listen again" on R5L. The speaker is on at around 9.30am. Paraphrasing, she said something along the lines of terrorists being on a continuum, with ISIS on one end, and Ukip, BNP and "the extreme right" on the other. Kippers are not terrorists, in her judgement... but they are pretty much on their way.
Except that they are not on a continuum, save for the continuum of the ideology which underpins their views. So afraid are people like her of admitting that there is an ideology behind what these people are doing, that that ideology arises from the soil of Islam - indeed IS has been described by the highest religious authority in Islam as not heretical - that she will get herself into whatever "on the one hand/on the other hand" contortions she has to to avoid the facts.
As far as IS is concerned, she is what Lenin called a "useful idiot".
The Delors award reminds me of the latter days of the Western Empire, when every emperor gave himself overblown and undeserved titles like Restorer of the World [Aurelian also got that accolade, but, as noted here many times, he actually deserved it].
The UK isn't really in a position to mock others for pompous and overblown titles.
Indigo I don't see why Javid is any better than Osborne, he is not particularly charismatic and has not been the second most powerful man in government, he has a better backstory than Cameron and Osborne, that is it, and he is also pretty rightwing, Osborne is slightly right of Cameron, Javid further right still
Javid's predicted success I would suspect is combination of his better backstory, and the assumption, which we will see if it pans out, that he will make a good impression at the senior level he is now, while still being fresh enough to the public compared to the old guard he might stand against to make some converts in any leadership contest (whereas ones like May and Boris will be fixed in peoples' minds). Time will tell - he seems pretty bland at present, but perhaps he will shine.
I just don't see why Boris is seen as such a front runner for the Tory leadership. His recent comments on the EU referendum struck me as silly. He's been a reasonable Mayor and has a certain star quality but it is the sort of quality suitable for a role as Mayor but not, I think, for PM.
Am I an evil bastard? I'm enjoying this Greek story. I certainly feel sorry for individual Greeks, especially those who didn't vote socialist over the decades - but in the main I'm finding this denouement hugely satisfying. Please, please, please will the gods let Greece be the thing that knackers the EU.
Believing the EU and the Eurozone were terrible mistakes, and the world would be better off without them is perfectly reasonable.
But I'm not sure (a) that the current Greek crisis and Grexit is likely to cause it, Plus, (b) a great many Greeks are likely to see their savings destroyed and the country may end up a failed state.
What we want is for Greece to elect a Mrs Thatcher to take their country out of the Eurozone, therefore paving the way for a break-up based on the success of those that leave.
What is not good for Greeks or Eurosceptics, is for Greece to leave the Eurozone lead by someone who counts Hugo Chavez and Christine Kirchner as economic role models.
Am I an evil bastard? I'm enjoying this Greek story. I certainly feel sorry for individual Greeks, especially those who didn't vote socialist over the decades - but in the main I'm finding this denouement hugely satisfying. Please, please, please will the gods let Greece be the thing that knackers the EU.
Believing the EU and the Eurozone were terrible mistakes, and the world would be better off without them is perfectly reasonable.
But I'm not sure (a) that the current Greek crisis and Grexit is likely to cause it, Plus, (b) a great many Greeks are likely to see their savings destroyed and the country may end up a failed state.
What we want is for Greece to elect a Mrs Thatcher to take their country out of the Eurozone, therefore paving the way for a break-up based on the success of those that leave.
What is not good for Greeks or Eurosceptics, is for Greece to leave the Eurozone lead by someone who counts Hugo Chavez and Christine Kirchner as economic role models.
Quick question, is this all likely to leave the Greeks without a lender of last resort?
Am I an evil bastard? I'm enjoying this Greek story. I certainly feel sorry for individual Greeks, especially those who didn't vote socialist over the decades - but in the main I'm finding this denouement hugely satisfying. Please, please, please will the gods let Greece be the thing that knackers the EU.
I'm not sure I feel quite like that - I'm not sure who is to blame for it all - it probably lies somewhere between the EU and the Greek government(s). What I am enjoying is the reaction of the Left in this country who must be torn between their two loves - socialists and the EU.
It looks to me as though the Left are siding with the hard up Greeks. A couple of weeks ago Diane Abbot hinted that the Left might not be quite so in favour of remaining in the EU as we might think, which is interesting.
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
wow.
IT WAS A JOKE!
What is rather worrying is that at the least several people, myself included, could imagine some idiot saying something like that genuinely. Either we are gullible fools, there really are people out there who say things like that, or both.
Some of those links seem very odd -- the one about the television series Spooks, for instance. Why should Google need to "forget" that someone had once asked an apparently innocuous question about a TV programme (unless the questioner is now head of MI5, in which case maybe he should already have known the answer)?
Anecdotal input from people who went to the E Mids Labour hustings: (1) Enthusiasm for Corbyn running strongly in the teeth of the polling data (2) Cooper seen as having performed well. (3) Lots of people impressed by Creasy, even among Corbyn backers who might have been expected to think her too centrist. (Declaration of bias - I like Creasy, not sure who I'll vote for in the leadership.)
I think Corbyn will do well on the first ballot even though many of his supporters don't expect him to win - they see it as a "heart" vote and accept philosophically that they'll need to do a "head" vote on the final round. There is a possibility that he could get into the last two, in which case they won't have to, though I don't think he'll win, as he'll get almost no transfers from other candidates.
Deputy is coming down to Watson vs Creasy in my opnion.
Indigo I don't see why Javid is any better than Osborne, he is not particularly charismatic and has not been the second most powerful man in government, he has a better backstory than Cameron and Osborne, that is it, and he is also pretty rightwing, Osborne is slightly right of Cameron, Javid further right still
Javid's predicted success I would suspect is combination of his better backstory, and the assumption, which we will see if it pans out, that he will make a good impression at the senior level he is now, while still being fresh enough to the public compared to the old guard he might stand against to make some converts in any leadership contest (whereas ones like May and Boris will be fixed in peoples' minds). Time will tell - he seems pretty bland at present, but perhaps he will shine.
I just don't see why Boris is seen as such a front runner for the Tory leadership. His recent comments on the EU referendum struck me as silly. He's been a reasonable Mayor and has a certain star quality but it is the sort of quality suitable for a role as Mayor but not, I think, for PM.
He's also one of the few politicians to have come out worse in a TV confrontation with Ed Miliband.
Miss Jones, that's thoroughly despicable, but it's also fascinating that it puts ISIS on the extreme left (in the speaker's own terms).
I think it was more about trying to say Islamic terrorists/right-wing extremists are two sides of the same coin.
"Left" and "right" are pointless terms when it comes to describing IS. It's a category mistake as a philosopher might say.
IS is a religious death cult, which takes its inspiration from Mohammed. Whether they are right to do so, whether it is a misinterpretation, a partial interpretation or a completely incorrect interpretation is irrelevant. That is where they are getting it from and it is one reason why it is so attractive to so many people who also get some sort of inspiration from Mohammed. That is a problem for Muslims, which they are going to have to address properly and by that I mean doing more than mouthing platitudes about how this has nothing to do with "real Islam". And it is a problem for us because we are having to deal with the fact that this death cult which has been pretty successful so far is attractive enough to numbers of young men and women within Muslim communities to be a real threat to us all, as we have seen in the last few days, months and years.
Above all, we need to accept - as our forefathers would have had no difficulty whatsoever in understanding - that religion can be violent and can inspire violence and hatred in its followers and that at the moment in the world it is one religion above others which is in the grip of this.
Then we can get round to finding a way of dealing with this. All the rest is evasion.
Am I an evil bastard? I'm enjoying this Greek story. I certainly feel sorry for individual Greeks, especially those who didn't vote socialist over the decades - but in the main I'm finding this denouement hugely satisfying. Please, please, please will the gods let Greece be the thing that knackers the EU.
I'm not sure I feel quite like that - I'm not sure who is to blame for it all - it probably lies somewhere between the EU and the Greek government(s). What I am enjoying is the reaction of the Left in this country who must be torn between their two loves - socialists and the EU.
It looks to me as though the Left are siding with the hard up Greeks. A couple of weeks ago Diane Abbot hinted that the Left might not be quite so in favour of remaining in the EU as we might think, which is interesting.
Good red-baiting knockabout but remember the last major party (sorry, kippers) campaigning for withdrawal was Labour, and it is the Conservative Party which is traditionally more pro-European, and Conservative governments which have taken most of the pro-EU steps, including joining the thing in the first place.
Anecdotal input from people who went to the E Mids Labour hustings: (1) Enthusiasm for Corbyn running strongly in the teeth of the polling data (2) Cooper seen as having performed well. (3) Lots of people impressed by Creasy, even among Corbyn backers who might have been expected to think her too centrist. (Declaration of bias - I like Creasy, not sure who I'll vote for in the leadership.)
I think Corbyn will do well on the first ballot even though many of his supporters don't expect him to win - they see it as a "heart" vote and accept philosophically that they'll need to do a "head" vote on the final round. There is a possibility that he could get into the last two, in which case they won't have to, though I don't think he'll win, as he'll get almost no transfers from other candidates.
Deputy is coming down to Watson vs Creasy in my opnion.
How representative is a hustings to the general electorate? Surely only the most committed are going to the hustings and that could distort towards Corbyn.
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
wow.
IT WAS A JOKE!
What is rather worrying is that at the least several people, myself included, could imagine some idiot saying something like that genuinely. Either we are gullible fools, there really are people out there who say things like that, or both.
A trawl through Comment is Free will find plenty of people who say stuff like this.
Am I an evil bastard? I'm enjoying this Greek story. I certainly feel sorry for individual Greeks, especially those who didn't vote socialist over the decades - but in the main I'm finding this denouement hugely satisfying. Please, please, please will the gods let Greece be the thing that knackers the EU.
I'm not sure I feel quite like that - I'm not sure who is to blame for it all - it probably lies somewhere between the EU and the Greek government(s). What I am enjoying is the reaction of the Left in this country who must be torn between their two loves - socialists and the EU.
It looks to me as though the Left are siding with the hard up Greeks. A couple of weeks ago Diane Abbot hinted that the Left might not be quite so in favour of remaining in the EU as we might think, which is interesting.
Good red-baiting knockabout but remember the last major party (sorry, kippers) campaigning for withdrawal was Labour, and it is the Conservative Party which is traditionally more pro-European, and Conservative governments which have taken most of the pro-EU steps, including joining the thing in the first place.
That's very true. I often wonder if the Left appear to be pro EU because they don't want to be associated with the Tory Eurosceptics or Ukip.
Miss Jones, that's thoroughly despicable, but it's also fascinating that it puts ISIS on the extreme left (in the speaker's own terms).
I think it was more about trying to say Islamic terrorists/right-wing extremists are two sides of the same coin.
"Left" and "right" are pointless terms when it comes to describing IS. It's a category mistake as a philosopher might say.
IS is a religious death cult, which takes its inspiration from Mohammed. Whether they are right to do so, whether it is a misinterpretation, a partial interpretation or a completely incorrect interpretation is irrelevant. That is where they are getting it from and it is one reason why it is so attractive to so many people who also get some sort of inspiration from Mohammed. That is a problem for Muslims, which they are going to have to address properly and by that I mean doing more than mouthing platitudes about how this has nothing to do with "real Islam". And it is a problem for us because we are having to deal with the fact that this death cult which has been pretty successful so far is attractive enough to numbers of young men and women within Muslim communities to be a real threat to us all, as we have seen in the last few days, months and years.
Above all, we need to accept - as our forefathers would have had no difficulty whatsoever in understanding - that religion can be violent and can inspire violence and hatred in its followers and that at the moment in the world it is one religion above others which is in the grip of this.
Then we can get round to finding a way of dealing with this. All the rest is evasion.
The major problem is that whole areas of large cities are almost entirely made up of Muslims that were born in England, have as much right as anyone else to say they're English, and have been brought up in a way that wouldn't be out of place in an Islamic state.
That is England in 2015, and quite understandably these people who know no different say this is the only England they know, and is as worthy as anyone else's feeling of home.
England is like a patient that put off going to the doctor for years despite thinking something was wrong because they didn't want it to be true, and now the disease ( Islamic extremism not Muslims in general) has possibly spread too far
Am I an evil bastard? I'm enjoying this Greek story. I certainly feel sorry for individual Greeks, especially those who didn't vote socialist over the decades - but in the main I'm finding this denouement hugely satisfying. Please, please, please will the gods let Greece be the thing that knackers the EU.
I'm not sure I feel quite like that - I'm not sure who is to blame for it all - it probably lies somewhere between the EU and the Greek government(s). What I am enjoying is the reaction of the Left in this country who must be torn between their two loves - socialists and the EU.
It looks to me as though the Left are siding with the hard up Greeks. A couple of weeks ago Diane Abbot hinted that the Left might not be quite so in favour of remaining in the EU as we might think, which is interesting.
Good red-baiting knockabout but remember the last major party (sorry, kippers) campaigning for withdrawal was Labour, and it is the Conservative Party which is traditionally more pro-European, and Conservative governments which have taken most of the pro-EU steps, including joining the thing in the first place.
That's very true. I often wonder if the Left appear to be pro EU because they don't want to be associated with the Tory Eurosceptics or Ukip.
The Left became pro-EU when Delors turned up and said that the EU would allow them to do things which they couldn't get done in the UK because the evil Fatcha was in power. The EU gave them a power which they couldn't win at the ballot box here.
And now some of them are slowly realising that the EU gives bankers and others a power which overrides the wishes of the people at the ballot box.
It is one of the great ironies that the Left has been so keen to support an organisation which has done its level best to protect banks and other "evil capitalists" from the consequences of their actions, at the expense of those parts of society one would have thought the Left would be keen to protect.
Miss Jones, that's thoroughly despicable, but it's also fascinating that it puts ISIS on the extreme left (in the speaker's own terms).
I think it was more about trying to say Islamic terrorists/right-wing extremists are two sides of the same coin.
"Left" and "right" are pointless terms when it comes to describing IS. It's a category mistake as a philosopher might say.
IS is a religious death cult, which takes its inspiration from Mohammed. Whether they are right to do so, whether it is a misinterpretation, a partial interpretation or a completely incorrect interpretation is irrelevant. That is where they are getting it from and it is one reason why it is so attractive to so many people who also get some sort of inspiration from Mohammed. That is a problem for Muslims, which they are going to have to address properly and by that I mean doing more than mouthing platitudes about how this has nothing to do with "real Islam". And it is a problem for us because we are having to deal with the fact that this death cult which has been pretty successful so far is attractive enough to numbers of young men and women within Muslim communities to be a real threat to us all, as we have seen in the last few days, months and years.
Above all, we need to accept - as our forefathers would have had no difficulty whatsoever in understanding - that religion can be violent and can inspire violence and hatred in its followers and that at the moment in the world it is one religion above others which is in the grip of this.
Then we can get round to finding a way of dealing with this. All the rest is evasion.
The major problem is that whole areas of large cities are almost entirely made up of Muslims that were born in England, have as much right as anyone else to say they're English, and have been brought up in a way that wouldn't be out of place in an Islamic state.
That is England in 2015, and quite understandably these people who know no different say this is the only England they know, and is as worthy as anyone else's feeling of home.
England is like a patient that put off going to the doctor for years despite thinking something was wrong because they didn't want it to be true, and now the disease ( Islamic extremism not Muslims in general) has possibly spread too far
It (Islamic extremism) may have done but I think that there is plenty that can be done and should be done. As much for all those Muslims living here who reject this extremism as for the rest of us.
"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little."
Mr. Glenn, but what happens if they do vote Yes? I thought the deal had been withdrawn.
It has been withdrawn to encourage a "Yes" vote.
What are the chances - if the Greeks vote yes - that the deal then offered to them is even worse - from their perspective - than the one they thought they were voting on?
Indigo I don't see why Javid is any better than Osborne, he is not particularly charismatic and has not been the second most powerful man in government, he has a better backstory than Cameron and Osborne, that is it, and he is also pretty rightwing, Osborne is slightly right of Cameron, Javid further right still
Javid's predicted success I would suspect is combination of his better backstory, and the assumption, which we will see if it pans out, that he will make a good impression at the senior level he is now, while still being fresh enough to the public compared to the old guard he might stand against to make some converts in any leadership contest (whereas ones like May and Boris will be fixed in peoples' minds). Time will tell - he seems pretty bland at present, but perhaps he will shine.
I just don't see why Boris is seen as such a front runner for the Tory leadership. His recent comments on the EU referendum struck me as silly. He's been a reasonable Mayor and has a certain star quality but it is the sort of quality suitable for a role as Mayor but not, I think, for PM.
Couldn't agree more. Boris and his overinflated personality work well in the role of Mayor, but it's completely different from what we expect in a PM - this is the UK, not the Italy of Berlusconi. Being the joker in the pack at a G7 meeting really isn't a good look, I can imagine him at the photocall doing bunny ears or pulling Mrs Merkel's bra strap for a joke - yet somehow in the aftermath of the election he was backed in almost to evens as next PM.
Never going to happen, and not just because I put my GE winnings and then some more to lay him on Betfair. ;-)
Indigo I don't see why Javid is any better than Osborne, he is not particularly charismatic and has not been the second most powerful man in government, he has a better backstory than Cameron and Osborne, that is it, and he is also pretty rightwing, Osborne is slightly right of Cameron, Javid further right still
Javid's predicted success I would suspect is combination of his better backstory, and the assumption, which we will see if it pans out, that he will make a good impression at the senior level he is now, while still being fresh enough to the public compared to the old guard he might stand against to make some converts in any leadership contest (whereas ones like May and Boris will be fixed in peoples' minds). Time will tell - he seems pretty bland at present, but perhaps he will shine.
Also that being a member of an ethnic minority, and a child of immigrants, and having got rich through his own hard work and talents, from a very humble start, rather than inheriting it, he would be a very hard target for Labour to score off without causing trouble on their own soil.
Am I an evil bastard? I'm enjoying this Greek story. I certainly feel sorry for individual Greeks, especially those who didn't vote socialist over the decades - but in the main I'm finding this denouement hugely satisfying. Please, please, please will the gods let Greece be the thing that knackers the EU.
I'm not sure I feel quite like that - I'm not sure who is to blame for it all - it probably lies somewhere between the EU and the Greek government(s). What I am enjoying is the reaction of the Left in this country who must be torn between their two loves - socialists and the EU.
It looks to me as though the Left are siding with the hard up Greeks. A couple of weeks ago Diane Abbot hinted that the Left might not be quite so in favour of remaining in the EU as we might think, which is interesting.
Good red-baiting knockabout but remember the last major party (sorry, kippers) campaigning for withdrawal was Labour, and it is the Conservative Party which is traditionally more pro-European, and Conservative governments which have taken most of the pro-EU steps, including joining the thing in the first place.
That's very true. I often wonder if the Left appear to be pro EU because they don't want to be associated with the Tory Eurosceptics or Ukip.
The Left became pro-EU when Delors turned up and said that the EU would allow them to do things which they couldn't get done in the UK because the evil Fatcha was in power. The EU gave them a power which they couldn't win at the ballot box here.
And now some of them are slowly realising that the EU gives bankers and others a power which overrides the wishes of the people at the ballot box.
It is one of the great ironies that the Left has been so keen to support an organisation which has done its level best to protect banks and other "evil capitalists" from the consequences of their actions, at the expense of those parts of society one would have thought the Left would be keen to protect.
Quite right about Delors and the Left. The EU was and is a vehicle to circumvent the will of the British parliament, a lock on future legislation. But the end is nigh....
Quite right about Delors and the Left. The EU was and is a vehicle to circumvent the will of the British parliament, a lock on future legislation. But the end is nigh....
In any democracy worthy of the name there are constraints placed on the government's actions, otherwise you just have an elected dictatorship.
Mr. Glenn, but what happens if they do vote Yes? I thought the deal had been withdrawn.
It has been withdrawn to encourage a "Yes" vote.
What are the chances - if the Greeks vote yes - that the deal then offered to them is even worse - from their perspective - than the one they thought they were voting on?
Nailed on I'd say.
Why? The eurozone elite cares about its survival. Offering a worse deal would give SYRIZA an excuse to ignore the vote or call another referendum.
I wouldn't be surprised to see further concessions from the eurozone this week.
Quite right about Delors and the Left. The EU was and is a vehicle to circumvent the will of the British parliament, a lock on future legislation. But the end is nigh....
In any democracy worthy of the name there are constraints placed on the government's actions, otherwise you just have an elected dictatorship.
Is that better or worse than an unelected dictatorship like the EU Commission ?
On topic, to some degree, I do think the next CON leader is fascinating but the betting graveyard is filled with those who backed the "obvious" candidate be it Michael Heseltine, Kenneth Clarke, Michael Portillo or even John Moore.
The move from No.11 to No.10 is nowhere near as smooth as it sounds and historically it hasn't gone that well. The circumstances of Cameron's departure - orchestrated exit with fanfare or humiliating withdrawal under fire - will determine so much.
Osborne, who for me has run the Conservative Party for some years, is in the box seat among MPs but none of that will matter if the circumstances of the election look bad for the Chancellor.
When the Conservative Party ousted Thatcher and IDS it was because both had become "losers" in the eyes of the Parliamentary Party - as I said before, if you had told a Conservative backbencher in the summer of 1987 what would happen in the autumn of 1990 he or she would have laughed - and the same fate may befall Cameron or may befall Osborne if he is not seen as being able to reach beyond the core CON vote.
What did for Thatcher in 1990 was the polling that showed a Heseltine-led Party on terms with Labour - what did for Heseltine was the polling showing a Major-led Party on terms with Labour as well.
We know Boris has been able to move beyond the CON heartland - whether he still can I don't know - and the jury is out on the likes of Hunt, Javid and the rest. What we do know is parties rarely pick the same leader twice by which I mean the new leader, while they may be in policy terms on the same page, will be very different in terms of personality and Party management simply because after a decade or more of one "style", people will want a change.
I know the Conservative supporters like to remind us all constantly what "quality" they have and how poor in contrast the Labour leadership contenders are but I'm less convinced. Cameron is currently head and shoulders above anyone else in his Party and the alternatives, apart from acting as potential caretakers, have plenty of ifs, buts and maybes about them as well.
The key for the Conservatives will be picking the candidate with whom they will win in 2020 - nothing else matters and there are plenty of marginal seats out there which, when the polling turns down for the Party as it will, will start to look even more marginal.
Indigo I don't see why Javid is any better than Osborne, he is not particularly charismatic and has not been the second most powerful man in government, he has a better backstory than Cameron and Osborne, that is it, and he is also pretty rightwing, Osborne is slightly right of Cameron, Javid further right still
Javid's predicted success I would suspect is combination of his better backstory, and the assumption, which we will see if it pans out, that he will make a good impression at the senior level he is now, while still being fresh enough to the public compared to the old guard he might stand against to make some converts in any leadership contest (whereas ones like May and Boris will be fixed in peoples' minds). Time will tell - he seems pretty bland at present, but perhaps he will shine.
I just don't see why Boris is seen as such a front runner for the Tory leadership. His recent comments on the EU referendum struck me as silly. He's been a reasonable Mayor and has a certain star quality but it is the sort of quality suitable for a role as Mayor but not, I think, for PM.
Couldn't agree more. Boris and his overinflated personality work well in the role of Mayor, but it's completely different from what we expect in a PM - this is the UK, not the Italy of Berlusconi. Being the joker in the pack at a G7 meeting really isn't a good look, I can imagine him at the photocall doing bunny ears or pulling Mrs Merkel's bra strap for a joke - yet somehow in the aftermath of the election he was backed in almost to evens as next PM.
Never going to happen, and not just because I put my GE winnings and then some more to lay him on Betfair. ;-)
Boris may well come across as a bouffant buffoon but that is not to say that he is not intelligent with it. He has a teflon quality as well, plus that indefinable but valuable addition of a thick skin with india rubber qualities that allow him to bounce back. In broad terms however I would agree, and that is to say that unless in extremis when you need a flag or a stone wall brigade to rally behind I think his qualities are best suited to be a senior minister of the Hailsham - Whitelaw type.
The key discussion wrt Greece, should not be whether it will happen (it almost certainly will, just look at Juncker making his excuses), but the knock on effects of it. Will it result in a drive for more integration that will force Britain out? Or will one of the Med nations decide that it's not for them? Could, somehow, the momentum from Grexit force the whole house of cards to come toppling down?
Miss Jones, that's thoroughly despicable, but it's also fascinating that it puts ISIS on the extreme left (in the speaker's own terms).
I think it was more about trying to say Islamic terrorists/right-wing extremists are two sides of the same coin.
"Left" and "right" are pointless terms when it comes to describing IS. It's a category mistake as a philosopher might say. all, we need to accept - as our forefathers would have had no difficulty whatsoever in understanding - that religion can be violent and can inspire violence and hatred in its followers and that at the moment in the world it is one religion above others which is in the grip of this.
Then we can get round to finding a way of dealing with this. All the rest is evasion.
The major problem is that whole areas of large cities are almost entirely made up of Muslims that were born in England, have as much right as anyone else to say they're English, and have been brought up in a way that wouldn't be out of place in an Islamic state.
That is England in 2015, and quite understandably these people who know no different say this is the only England they know, and is as worthy as anyone else's feeling of home.
England is like a patient that put off going to the doctor for years despite thinking something was wrong because they didn't want it to be true, and now the disease ( Islamic extremism not Muslims in general) has possibly spread too far
It (Islamic extremism) may have done but I think that there is plenty that can be done and should be done. As much for all those Muslims living here who reject this extremism as for the rest of us.
"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little."
I agree w your quote but can't think of anything that could work. Sorry to be pessimistic but the only people who will actually say what needs to be said have been smeared by left wing guardian types from the main 3 parties for so long that people are reluctant to believe them
It will prob take an act of terrorism in the UK before we see any real action
Totally O/T, but on the Greek crisis, there's a headline in the Guardian on-line edition which reads "Vicky Pryce: ‘We should never have got to this point’"
Deputy is coming down to Watson vs Creasy in my opnion.
In which case should we interpret Burnham's comments as meaning that Watson will never be deputy under him?
No, he's been clear that he just means that Labour's alternative spokesperson at PMQ will be a woman (probably Reeves). The role of Deputy isn't formally defined, and I'd think that if it's Tom Watson it'll be seen first and foremost as strengthening the Leeadership-party organisation channel, a bit like the role of Tory Party chair: Tom is well connected throughout the organisation.
Agree with Philip that Corbyn's support will be heavier among hustings participants than the overall membership.
Totally O/T, but on the Greek crisis, there's a headline in the Guardian on-line edition which reads "Vicky Pryce: ‘We should never have got to this point’"
Now, where have I read or heard that before?
Perhaps the solution is to put the Greek debts in her name.
Totally O/T, but on the Greek crisis, there's a headline in the Guardian on-line edition which reads "Vicky Pryce: ‘We should never have got to this point’"
Now, where have I read or heard that before?
Perhaps the solution is to put the Greek debts in her name.
Am I an evil bastard? I'm enjoying this Greek story. I certainly feel sorry for individual Greeks, especially those who didn't vote socialist over the decades - but in the main I'm finding this denouement hugely satisfying. Please, please, please will the gods let Greece be the thing that knackers the EU.
I'm not sure I feel quite like that - I'm not sure who is to blame for it all - it probably lies somewhere between the EU and the Greek government(s). What I am enjoying is the reaction of the Left in this country who must be torn between their two loves - socialists and the EU.
It looks to me as though the Left are siding with the hard up Greeks. A couple of weeks ago Diane Abbot hinted that the Left might not be quite so in favour of remaining in the EU as we might think, which is interesting.
Good red-baiting knockabout but remember the last major party (sorry, kippers) campaigning for withdrawal was Labour, and it is the Conservative Party which is traditionally more pro-European, and Conservative governments which have taken most of the pro-EU steps, including joining the thing in the first place.
That's very true. I often wonder if the Left appear to be pro EU because they don't want to be associated with the Tory Eurosceptics or Ukip.
The labour left say the EEC as being pro capitalism (rightly or wrongly) and when in opposition it was an easy thing to oppose. But as the EEC moved into the EC then Labour saw it as a means to inflict more socialism in the days when EC govt were more socialist & social democratic. I also think the Labour left's anti american streak also pushed them more to favour the EC/EU. I think Cameron's comments show that he takes the traditional conservative view and thinks the EU should be more trading block and less political, social union. If countries want a currency union, who are we to say they cannot have one? However Greek events show that such a union need greater central monetary and fiscal control which we must ensure is not harmful to us as members of the EU. Hence the current policy. But lets be clear - if we leave the EU then we will be faced with what will be in an economic and financial sense a massive country on our doorstep over which we have no influence.
Anecdotal input from people who went to the E Mids Labour hustings: (1) Enthusiasm for Corbyn running strongly in the teeth of the polling data (2) Cooper seen as having performed well. (3) Lots of people impressed by Creasy, even among Corbyn backers who might have been expected to think her too centrist. (Declaration of bias - I like Creasy, not sure who I'll vote for in the leadership.)
I think Corbyn will do well on the first ballot even though many of his supporters don't expect him to win - they see it as a "heart" vote and accept philosophically that they'll need to do a "head" vote on the final round. There is a possibility that he could get into the last two, in which case they won't have to, though I don't think he'll win, as he'll get almost no transfers from other candidates.
Deputy is coming down to Watson vs Creasy in my opnion.
Totally O/T, but on the Greek crisis, there's a headline in the Guardian on-line edition which reads "Vicky Pryce: ‘We should never have got to this point’"
Now, where have I read or heard that before?
Perhaps the solution is to put the Greek debts in her name.
Deputy is coming down to Watson vs Creasy in my opnion.
In which case should we interpret Burnham's comments as meaning that Watson will never be deputy under him?
No, he's been clear that he just means that Labour's alternative spokesperson at PMQ will be a woman (probably Reeves).
Mr Palmer, I have to say that I find it sad to see this fetish the modern Labour Party has with gender.
As I grew up in a Labour supporting family it was instilled into me that the Conservatives were the party of privilege, old-boy-networks, "not what you know, but who you know", old school tie and so on, whereas Labour stood for equality of opportunity, advancement on merit and fair play for all.
"Andy Burnham will ensure that he has a woman as his deputy in Parliament even if a man wins the deputy leadership contest – and has committed to an even gender split in the Shadow Cabinet under his leadership."
It beggars belief. He should be picking the best team to hold the government to account while in opposition, and to run the country effectively when in government. Do they want to beat the Tories, or don't they?
There are two mechanisms by which Grexit could lead to other countries leaving the Eurozone and/or the end of the whole "project".
1. If peripheral countries (Spain, Portugal and Italy) are no longer able to fund themselves in the market, it could force them to out of the Euro.
2. If Greece is successful outside the Euro, then it will inevitably increase the political pressure on periphery governments. This is a major, but longer term threat to the Eurozone. Imagine if you are sat in Portugal, and you see Greece going from strength-to-strength: hard not to see pressure to leave the Euro. And if Spain or Italy started heading for the exit, it could lead to the eventual destruction of the Eurozone.
The bonds of Spain, Italy and Portugal are all down today. However, the move is relatively modest: Italian and Spanish 10 year interest rates have moved out 0.2%, while Portugal has increased 0.3%. How much of this is due to ECB Quantitative Easing, and how much to improved fundamentals is another matter altogether. It is worth noting that government debt-to-GDP peaked in 2013 in Portugal, and has almost certainly peaked in Spain. Therefore, while those countries are undoubtedly still vulnerable, the issue is much less acute than in 2011. Furthermore, if investors believe that the ECB will backstop peripheral debt through QE, then they (the periphery) probably will have little difficulty in funding themselves. Therefore, in the near term at least, it would seem unlikely that Grexit would cause other to exit the Euro through being unable to fund themselves.
The second issue, to my mind, is the much more important one. A successful Greece would cause enormous problems for incumbent governments in Spain, Italy and Portugal. Conversely, of course, if Grexit is disastrous for the Greek people, then it will dramatically reduce the likelihood of others choosing to go down that route.
My personal belief is that if Greece was run by a sensible, economically literate, politically centre-right leader like (say) Margaret Thatcher, then it would prosper outside the Eurozone and probably mark the beginning of the end of the Eurozone. But Alex Tsipiras, as I've said many times before on this board, is not that man. SYRIZA is full of people that believe that Hugo Chavez and Christine Kirchner are the economic role models to follow. That hasn't worked out well for Venezuela and Argentina, and it won't work out well for Greece either.
This analysis could be completely wrong, but I don't see Grexit as bringing the end to the Eurozone much closer. Indeed, because - as you allude to - it increases integration and backstopping of debt, it may make it less likely.
'What are the chances - if the Greeks vote yes - that the deal then offered to them is even worse - from their perspective - than the one they thought they were voting on?'
It'll be the same or better (there has already been some discussion about debt write-off), absolutely nothing will get in the way of the EU ideology.
If it's worse there will have to be another referendum as the Greeks will have voted on what was on offer last week.
'What are the chances - if the Greeks vote yes - that the deal then offered to them is even worse - from their perspective - than the one they thought they were voting on?'
It'll be the same or better (there has already been some discussion about debt write-off), absolutely nothing will get in the way of the EU ideology.
If it's worse there will have to be another referendum as the Greeks will have voted on what was on offer last week.
The other point is - do they understand the complexities and history of the deals that are or were offered? Do the Greeks understand the consequences? As it is the referendum only works as a get out for the govt which has boxed itself into a corner - 'despite our promises this is the best deal. We still did as well as anyone could have'. The greek govt (Arthur Scargill like) never really seemed to want any deal. Possibly the Greek voters now realise what a tiger they have grabbed by the tail.
"ISIS, unlike really dangerous terrorist organisations such as UKIP, is only committed to converting the whole world to their brand of Islam and killing non-believers."
wow.
IT WAS A JOKE!
What is rather worrying is that at the least several people, myself included, could imagine some idiot saying something like that genuinely. Either we are gullible fools, there really are people out there who say things like that, or both.
Comments
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/the-dark-side-of-twitter-unionist-trolls-exposed.1435488587
The worst example:
"One Twitter user, @cboulter49, wrote they wished they could send the First Minister "to ISIS" and added: "They will sh** anything, then they wud [sic] cut her f***** head off."
I think as the MSM is waking up to the fact that Cyber abuse on social media just comes with the territory and there are extremists on all sides. The MSM should only report on criminal behaviour, not on extremists throwing insults at each other.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/yvette-cooper-and-andy-burnham-need-show-why-theyre-not-just-more-same/ by John Woodcock
http://labourlist.org/2015/06/things-will-change-and-the-readiness-is-all/
The Jockish indy question is settled for a generation - time to focus on the knotty Natty problems of rising unemployment, dire growth and poor school attainment north of the border.
In the meantime there is an election next year where the people of Scotland will decide who will be their government for the next 5 years. Maybe we might have these issues debated rather than the endless constitutional crap which was decided in a referendum a year ago.
I am available to write a guest blog : "Is Nicola the new Gordon Brown ?" (QTWTAIY)
And, far worse even than this, she is demonstrating the sort of moral obtuseness which can truly be described as decadent, as well as idiotic. If she is an expert on terrorism, God help us.
Plus ca change....
http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/files/2015/06/letter_PM-Luxembourg.pdf
It ends:
wow.
'The fresh crisis came just a day after the European Council, in an act of hubris, awarded Jacques Delors, the architect of the currency, the title of Honourary Citizen of Europe. The turmoil also comes in the same week the eurozone issued its prized blueprint on "Completing Economic and Monetary Union".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/entries/1d765aa8-600b-4f32-b110-d02fbf7fd379
Paraphrasing, she said something along the lines of terrorists being on a continuum, with ISIS on one end, and Ukip, BNP and "the extreme right" on the other. Kippers are not terrorists, in her judgement... but they are pretty much on their way.
If one of the female candidates wins the Labour leadership, will she promise to appoint a male deputy?
Seems apt as the Euro has f*cked the Greeks
As far as IS is concerned, she is what Lenin called a "useful idiot".
Good to see the police going after the real criminals in our society.
Bazinga
But I'm not sure (a) that the current Greek crisis and Grexit is likely to cause it,
Plus, (b) a great many Greeks are likely to see their savings destroyed and the country may end up a failed state.
What we want is for Greece to elect a Mrs Thatcher to take their country out of the Eurozone, therefore paving the way for a break-up based on the success of those that leave.
What is not good for Greeks or Eurosceptics, is for Greece to leave the Eurozone lead by someone who counts Hugo Chavez and Christine Kirchner as economic role models.
Ill-judged interventions from him are probably the best hope for the Out campaign in the UK referendum.
It looks to me as though the Left are siding with the hard up Greeks. A couple of weeks ago Diane Abbot hinted that the Left might not be quite so in favour of remaining in the EU as we might think, which is interesting.
I think Corbyn will do well on the first ballot even though many of his supporters don't expect him to win - they see it as a "heart" vote and accept philosophically that they'll need to do a "head" vote on the final round. There is a possibility that he could get into the last two, in which case they won't have to, though I don't think he'll win, as he'll get almost no transfers from other candidates.
Deputy is coming down to Watson vs Creasy in my opnion.
IS is a religious death cult, which takes its inspiration from Mohammed. Whether they are right to do so, whether it is a misinterpretation, a partial interpretation or a completely incorrect interpretation is irrelevant. That is where they are getting it from and it is one reason why it is so attractive to so many people who also get some sort of inspiration from Mohammed. That is a problem for Muslims, which they are going to have to address properly and by that I mean doing more than mouthing platitudes about how this has nothing to do with "real Islam". And it is a problem for us because we are having to deal with the fact that this death cult which has been pretty successful so far is attractive enough to numbers of young men and women within Muslim communities to be a real threat to us all, as we have seen in the last few days, months and years.
Above all, we need to accept - as our forefathers would have had no difficulty whatsoever in understanding - that religion can be violent and can inspire violence and hatred in its followers and that at the moment in the world it is one religion above others which is in the grip of this.
Then we can get round to finding a way of dealing with this. All the rest is evasion.
That is England in 2015, and quite understandably these people who know no different say this is the only England they know, and is as worthy as anyone else's feeling of home.
England is like a patient that put off going to the doctor for years despite thinking something was wrong because they didn't want it to be true, and now the disease ( Islamic extremism not Muslims in general) has possibly spread too far
And now some of them are slowly realising that the EU gives bankers and others a power which overrides the wishes of the people at the ballot box.
It is one of the great ironies that the Left has been so keen to support an organisation which has done its level best to protect banks and other "evil capitalists" from the consequences of their actions, at the expense of those parts of society one would have thought the Left would be keen to protect.
"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little."
Never going to happen, and not just because I put my GE winnings and then some more to lay him on Betfair. ;-)
I wouldn't be surprised to see further concessions from the eurozone this week.
Sorted.
On topic, to some degree, I do think the next CON leader is fascinating but the betting graveyard is filled with those who backed the "obvious" candidate be it Michael Heseltine, Kenneth Clarke, Michael Portillo or even John Moore.
The move from No.11 to No.10 is nowhere near as smooth as it sounds and historically it hasn't gone that well. The circumstances of Cameron's departure - orchestrated exit with fanfare or humiliating withdrawal under fire - will determine so much.
Osborne, who for me has run the Conservative Party for some years, is in the box seat among MPs but none of that will matter if the circumstances of the election look bad for the Chancellor.
When the Conservative Party ousted Thatcher and IDS it was because both had become "losers" in the eyes of the Parliamentary Party - as I said before, if you had told a Conservative backbencher in the summer of 1987 what would happen in the autumn of 1990 he or she would have laughed - and the same fate may befall Cameron or may befall Osborne if he is not seen as being able to reach beyond the core CON vote.
What did for Thatcher in 1990 was the polling that showed a Heseltine-led Party on terms with Labour - what did for Heseltine was the polling showing a Major-led Party on terms with Labour as well.
We know Boris has been able to move beyond the CON heartland - whether he still can I don't know - and the jury is out on the likes of Hunt, Javid and the rest. What we do know is parties rarely pick the same leader twice by which I mean the new leader, while they may be in policy terms on the same page, will be very different in terms of personality and Party management simply because after a decade or more of one "style", people will want a change.
I know the Conservative supporters like to remind us all constantly what "quality" they have and how poor in contrast the Labour leadership contenders are but I'm less convinced. Cameron is currently head and shoulders above anyone else in his Party and the alternatives, apart from acting as potential caretakers, have plenty of ifs, buts and maybes about them as well.
The key for the Conservatives will be picking the candidate with whom they will win in 2020 - nothing else matters and there are plenty of marginal seats out there which, when the polling turns down for the Party as it will, will start to look even more marginal.
pic.twitter.com/p2ehJD3vXL
Maybe we could do the same for our referendum.
It will prob take an act of terrorism in the UK before we see any real action
Now, where have I read or heard that before?
Agree with Philip that Corbyn's support will be heavier among hustings participants than the overall membership.
I think Cameron's comments show that he takes the traditional conservative view and thinks the EU should be more trading block and less political, social union.
If countries want a currency union, who are we to say they cannot have one? However Greek events show that such a union need greater central monetary and fiscal control which we must ensure is not harmful to us as members of the EU. Hence the current policy. But lets be clear - if we leave the EU then we will be faced with what will be in an economic and financial sense a massive country on our doorstep over which we have no influence.
My Greek friend who is on the very hard left will be voting No in the referendum.
As I grew up in a Labour supporting family it was instilled into me that the Conservatives were the party of privilege, old-boy-networks, "not what you know, but who you know", old school tie and so on, whereas Labour stood for equality of opportunity, advancement on merit and fair play for all.
Now Labour List is carrying this story.
Burnham: I’ll have a 50/50 gender split Shadow Cabinet and a woman as deputy
http://labourlist.org/2015/06/burnham-ill-have-a-5050-gender-split-shadow-cabinet-and-a-woman-as-deputy/
"Andy Burnham will ensure that he has a woman as his deputy in Parliament even if a man wins the deputy leadership contest – and has committed to an even gender split in the Shadow Cabinet under his leadership."
It beggars belief. He should be picking the best team to hold the government to account while in opposition, and to run the country effectively when in government.
Do they want to beat the Tories, or don't they?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/jeb-bush-dogged-by-decades-of-questions-about-business-deals/2015/06/28/0138223c-edb7-11e4-8abc-d6aa3bad79dd_story.html?hpid=z1
New Thread
There are two mechanisms by which Grexit could lead to other countries leaving the Eurozone and/or the end of the whole "project".
1. If peripheral countries (Spain, Portugal and Italy) are no longer able to fund themselves in the market, it could force them to out of the Euro.
2. If Greece is successful outside the Euro, then it will inevitably increase the political pressure on periphery governments. This is a major, but longer term threat to the Eurozone. Imagine if you are sat in Portugal, and you see Greece going from strength-to-strength: hard not to see pressure to leave the Euro. And if Spain or Italy started heading for the exit, it could lead to the eventual destruction of the Eurozone.
The bonds of Spain, Italy and Portugal are all down today. However, the move is relatively modest: Italian and Spanish 10 year interest rates have moved out 0.2%, while Portugal has increased 0.3%. How much of this is due to ECB Quantitative Easing, and how much to improved fundamentals is another matter altogether. It is worth noting that government debt-to-GDP peaked in 2013 in Portugal, and has almost certainly peaked in Spain. Therefore, while those countries are undoubtedly still vulnerable, the issue is much less acute than in 2011. Furthermore, if investors believe that the ECB will backstop peripheral debt through QE, then they (the periphery) probably will have little difficulty in funding themselves. Therefore, in the near term at least, it would seem unlikely that Grexit would cause other to exit the Euro through being unable to fund themselves.
The second issue, to my mind, is the much more important one. A successful Greece would cause enormous problems for incumbent governments in Spain, Italy and Portugal. Conversely, of course, if Grexit is disastrous for the Greek people, then it will dramatically reduce the likelihood of others choosing to go down that route.
My personal belief is that if Greece was run by a sensible, economically literate, politically centre-right leader like (say) Margaret Thatcher, then it would prosper outside the Eurozone and probably mark the beginning of the end of the Eurozone. But Alex Tsipiras, as I've said many times before on this board, is not that man. SYRIZA is full of people that believe that Hugo Chavez and Christine Kirchner are the economic role models to follow. That hasn't worked out well for Venezuela and Argentina, and it won't work out well for Greece either.
This analysis could be completely wrong, but I don't see Grexit as bringing the end to the Eurozone much closer. Indeed, because - as you allude to - it increases integration and backstopping of debt, it may make it less likely.
'What are the chances - if the Greeks vote yes - that the deal then offered to them is even worse - from their perspective - than the one they thought they were voting on?'
It'll be the same or better (there has already been some discussion about debt write-off), absolutely nothing will get in the way of the EU ideology.
If it's worse there will have to be another referendum as the Greeks will have voted on what was on offer last week.
As it is the referendum only works as a get out for the govt which has boxed itself into a corner - 'despite our promises this is the best deal. We still did as well as anyone could have'. The greek govt (Arthur Scargill like) never really seemed to want any deal. Possibly the Greek voters now realise what a tiger they have grabbed by the tail.
Sorry.