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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,169

    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dair If the SNP spend the entire election refusing to rule out pushing indyref2 as soon as they get back into power many weary No voting unionists may well see a few barcharts from the leaflets of whichever party was in second in 2011 saying 'only they can stop the SNP here etc' and vote accordingly, with a majority of 1 it only takes the loss of a handful of constituency seats for the SNP to lose its majority

    Ah back to that old canard.

    Even when academic research suggests that every time the Loyalists mentioned the Second Referendum, SNP support went up.

    Please, let the Tories and Labour play that card. Unfortunately I don't think they will get the chance. Westminster's failure to deliver Devo Max means that teh Second Referendum will be on the ballot.
    "Loyalist" is a Northern Ireland term.
    Its use long predates that recent upleasantness.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. Divvie, 'denier' also pre-dates the Holocaust, but is still very much associated with those who claim it didn't happen.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,158

    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dair If the SNP spend the entire election refusing to rule out pushing indyref2 as soon as they get back into power many weary No voting unionists may well see a few barcharts from the leaflets of whichever party was in second in 2011 saying 'only they can stop the SNP here etc' and vote accordingly, with a majority of 1 it only takes the loss of a handful of constituency seats for the SNP to lose its majority

    Ah back to that old canard.

    Even when academic research suggests that every time the Loyalists mentioned the Second Referendum, SNP support went up.

    Please, let the Tories and Labour play that card. Unfortunately I don't think they will get the chance. Westminster's failure to deliver Devo Max means that teh Second Referendum will be on the ballot.
    "Loyalist" is a Northern Ireland term.
    Its use long predates that recent upleasantness.
    Such as?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774

    Great piece Tissue Price. Ignoring Scottish politics, it is the clearest guide to creating a tissue (betting forecast) I've read, and it has already made me rethink the way I look at prices.

    Yup.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited June 2015

    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dair If the SNP spend the entire election refusing to rule out pushing indyref2 as soon as they get back into power many weary No voting unionists may well see a few barcharts from the leaflets of whichever party was in second in 2011 saying 'only they can stop the SNP here etc' and vote accordingly, with a majority of 1 it only takes the loss of a handful of constituency seats for the SNP to lose its majority

    Ah back to that old canard.

    Even when academic research suggests that every time the Loyalists mentioned the Second Referendum, SNP support went up.

    Please, let the Tories and Labour play that card. Unfortunately I don't think they will get the chance. Westminster's failure to deliver Devo Max means that teh Second Referendum will be on the ballot.
    "Loyalist" is a Northern Ireland term.
    Its use long predates that recent upleasantness.
    Such as?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_(American_Revolution)

    Loyalist is much shorter and more convenient than "persons inimical to the freedoms of Scotland".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,995
    edited June 2015
    Dair The general election was about ensuring more powers, the Holyrood election is about indyref 2 and when asked the minimum timeframe for indyref 2 for a plurality when polled it is 10-15 years, not 5 years
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,158
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dair If the SNP spend the entire election refusing to rule out pushing indyref2 as soon as they get back into power many weary No voting unionists may well see a few barcharts from the leaflets of whichever party was in second in 2011 saying 'only they can stop the SNP here etc' and vote accordingly, with a majority of 1 it only takes the loss of a handful of constituency seats for the SNP to lose its majority

    Ah back to that old canard.

    Even when academic research suggests that every time the Loyalists mentioned the Second Referendum, SNP support went up.

    Please, let the Tories and Labour play that card. Unfortunately I don't think they will get the chance. Westminster's failure to deliver Devo Max means that teh Second Referendum will be on the ballot.
    "Loyalist" is a Northern Ireland term.
    Its use long predates that recent upleasantness.
    Such as?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_(American_Revolution)
    By using the term "Loyalist", you are deliberately trying to associate Unionism in Scotland with the (ongoing) conflict in Northern Ireland.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,995
    Dair The Quebec Tories actually polled higher than the Federal Tories for a while as they were squeezed by Reform, but there was tactical voting for the Liberals true and I agree with rcs that it will start next year but really gain speed in 2020 and 2024
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618

    jayfdee said:

    AndyJS said:

    Nothing on the front page of Le Monde about the trouble in Calais:

    http://www.lemonde.fr/

    Well I finally made it to France,after they re opened the tunnel. It is quite scary seeing the large number of migrants all around,I will enjoy my trip and worry about the return later.
    Bon voyage!
    Sunil,thanks, I am now chilling out with a very nice red. No driving tomorrow, but I suspect tomorrow will be emotionally hard, doing the WW1 battlefields etc.
    France and Belgium are fantastic, awy from Calais. There were enormous queues of HGVs trying to get to Calais.
    For a while UK was almost cut off from France, almost no ferries and no tunnel,c,est la vie!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. Dair, Dr. Prasannan's quite right to call you out on that use of language. What's wrong with 'unionist'?

    [NB I've stated here before that I dislike those who call climate change sceptics 'deniers', and likewise those who refer to deficit 'deniers'].
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. Jayfdee, cut off from France? How would we have survived without regular imports of cheese, wine, and immigrants?!

    Hope you have a trouble-free stay.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:
    By using the term "Loyalist", you are deliberately trying to associate Unionism in Scotland with the (ongoing) conflict in Northern Ireland.
    It is used because it is accurate and a long standing term with centuries of history.

    If people feel offended by the term Loyalist they should be examining their loyalty to British Nationalism and not objecting to the use of an accurate term.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    geoffw said:

    Great piece Tissue Price. Ignoring Scottish politics, it is the clearest guide to creating a tissue (betting forecast) I've read, and it has already made me rethink the way I look at prices.

    Yup.
    Thanks both - glad it's been useful!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,169

    Mr. Divvie, 'denier' also pre-dates the Holocaust, but is still very much associated with those who claim it didn't happen.

    I assume you're referring to horrid people implicitly associating holocaust deniers with climate change sceptics?

    Having spent most of referendum day at a polling station with a bunch of knuckledraggers waving Red Hand of Ulster flags at me and the following evening skirting round similar knuckledraggers in full riot, I don't have much sympathy with Unionists getting all fastidious about who they want to be associated with.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited June 2015

    Mr. Dair, Dr. Prasannan's quite right to call you out on that use of language. What's wrong with 'unionist'?

    [NB I've stated here before that I dislike those who call climate change sceptics 'deniers', and likewise those who refer to deficit 'deniers'].

    It is not ,my fault that Loyalists of a British Nationalist persuasion are so closely associated with murder gangs, terrorism, subjugation, genocide, ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity that the term "Loyalist" has such a clearly objectionable status in your mind.

    That is purely the fault of the actions of British Loyalists in America, India, Ireland and elsewhere in the world where they have tried to hold back the tide tsunami of history.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,158
    Dair said:

    Dair said:
    By using the term "Loyalist", you are deliberately trying to associate Unionism in Scotland with the (ongoing) conflict in Northern Ireland.
    It is used because it is accurate and a long standing term with centuries of history.

    If people feel offended by the term Loyalist they should be examining their loyalty to British Nationalism and not objecting to the use of an accurate term.
    Loyalism has a very specific use in UK politics, referring to the NI conflict. Where's your evidence that all Unionists are Protestant?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    edited June 2015
    Mr. Divvie, would you wish a unionist to consider all the SNP and Yes supporters to be represented by those few who are being vicious on Twitter? [I know it's not one-way traffic on that particular avenue of effluence].

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Dair, I'm not sure your post or use of 'Loyalist' is necessarily in keeping with Salmond's claim that Scotland and the UK (less Scotland) would be 'best pals'. You know it's not on.

    When Mr. G a while ago posted about how offensive the term 'Scotch' was I made sure never to use it [hadn't previously, but it stuck in my mind]. When another chap (maybe Mr. Divvie) objected to YeSNP, even though that was clearly in jest, I didn't use it.
  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 525
    Dair said:

    Saltire said:

    Dair where do you think Margo's vote will go on the Lothian list? Even if it all went to the Greens they will be only just on 2 MSPs and I think at least some of it is likely to go to the SNP.

    The SSP just don't have the profile to benefit from it, I think it will split between SNP and Greens, hopefully more Greens. My hope is that the Greens get a very significant list vote and eat into Labour hard. But reality is that the SNP will be campaigning for SNP/SNP so getting to 15% will be tough for the Greens

    But they are already at 10% so who knows, if the SNP maintain a 55%+ Constituency share, with any luck enough people will realise the power of a Split Vote to really hurt Labour and to a lesser extent the Tories.

    My biggest hope is the SNP can get both Orkney and Zetland and leave the Liberals completely wiped out. Liar Carmichael is doing a good job in helping them achieve this.
    Even if the Libdems lost both those seats they would of qualified for 2 list seats in the region. I think that the Libdems are unlikely to do much worse than last time and indeed may well regain 2 or 3 of the list seats that they lost in 2011.
    As for the Greens the reason I think that they are good bets to get 2 MSPs in Lothian and Glasgow is the votes that went to Margo and George Galloway last time will be up for grabs. I just don't see them doing so well in rural Scotland
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    geoffw said:

    Great piece Tissue Price. Ignoring Scottish politics, it is the clearest guide to creating a tissue (betting forecast) I've read, and it has already made me rethink the way I look at prices.

    Yup.
    Thanks both - glad it's been useful!
    One of the best pieces on PB ever.

    As a bonus your next piece gets published in the morning.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618

    Mr. Jayfdee, cut off from France? How would we have survived without regular imports of cheese, wine, and immigrants?!

    Hope you have a trouble-free stay.

    MD thanks,yes very astute,re imports, but very chilling to see it first hand. Hope to bring back a few cases of fine red,and hopefully nothing else hiding underneath the car.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    edited June 2015
    Dair said:

    Mr. Dair, Dr. Prasannan's quite right to call you out on that use of language. What's wrong with 'unionist'?

    [NB I've stated here before that I dislike those who call climate change sceptics 'deniers', and likewise those who refer to deficit 'deniers'].

    It is not ,my fault that Loyalists of a British Nationalist persuasion are so closely associated with murder gangs, terrorism, subjugation, genocide, ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity that the term "Loyalist" has such a clearly objectionable status in your mind.

    That is purely the fault of the actions of British Loyalists in America, India, Ireland and elsewhere in the world where they have tried to hold back the tide tsunami of history.
    I suppose the opposite of loyalist is traitor. I fail to see what's objectionable to being loyal to one's own country.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    Great piece Tissue Price. Ignoring Scottish politics, it is the clearest guide to creating a tissue (betting forecast) I've read, and it has already made me rethink the way I look at prices.

    As ever the key to betting isn't trying to pick the winner, it's picking the option where the price is most wrong. Frequently that will be the most likely winner, but not always ;)
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Sean_F said:


    I suppose the opposite of loyalist is traitor. I fail to see what's objectionable to being loyal to one's own country.

    Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    Synonyms and Antonyms of LOYALIST
    a person who loves his or her country and supports its interests and policies

    Synonyms loyalist
    Related Words chauvinist; flag-waver, jingoist, nationalist, superpatriot; compatriot, countryman

    Near Antonyms collaborator, quisling, spy, traitor; betrayer, deserter, recreant; renegade
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    Disraeli said:

    Sean_F said:


    I suppose the opposite of loyalist is traitor. I fail to see what's objectionable to being loyal to one's own country.

    Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    Synonyms and Antonyms of LOYALIST
    a person who loves his or her country and supports its interests and policies

    Synonyms loyalist
    Related Words chauvinist; flag-waver, jingoist, nationalist, superpatriot; compatriot, countryman

    Near Antonyms collaborator, quisling, spy, traitor; betrayer, deserter, recreant; renegade
    Dair thinks that "loyalist" is a term of abuse (55% of Scots are loyalists). I say embrace it.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    I suspect the mentality displayed by one or two of the Scottish nationalists on here today helped swing the independence vote towards the No campaign
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,169

    Mr. Divvie, would you wish a unionist to consider all the SNP and Yes supporters to be represented by those few who are being vicious on Twitter? [I know it's not one-way traffic on that particular avenue of effluence].


    Ignoring the fact that that is the way the media and various Unionists do portray the SNP and Yes supporters, I don't really care. I'm just entertained by those who have a somewhat selective attitude to what is and isn't acceptable.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dair said:

    Dair said:
    By using the term "Loyalist", you are deliberately trying to associate Unionism in Scotland with the (ongoing) conflict in Northern Ireland.
    It is used because it is accurate and a long standing term with centuries of history.

    If people feel offended by the term Loyalist they should be examining their loyalty to British Nationalism and not objecting to the use of an accurate term.
    Kevin McKenna is no loyalist but this is rather good

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/21/fair-equal-scotland-not-so-you-would-notice?CMP=share_btn_tw

    What of the rest of us? If there were prizes for soaring rhetoric about lifting our fellow Scots out of poverty and being all equal and fair, those of us who were part of the 45 and who then voted for the 56 would win them all.

    So, how many of us would be willing to pay more tax in a fiscally autonomous Scotland to ensure that the deficit was within manageable proportions and that vital public services remain intact?

    Until then, this SNP government will be remembered always as being the most socially progressive-sounding party we have ever had in a country that always talked a good game. Fair and equal Scotland, my arse.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,158
    O/T Venus and Jupiter getting closer and closer as they set on the western horizon!
  • tommytommy Posts: 1
    Solidarity will field a strong list of candidates in each of the 8 regional lists. Their call will be SNP Constituency vote; Solidarity List vote. During the recent General Election Solidarity stood aside and encouraged voters to back the SNP as the biggest anti-austerity party and pro-independence party. Both the Greens and SSP stood candidates. the SSP votes were derisory but the Greens strategy effectively saved Scotland's only Tory, Mundell. If they had stood aside and encouraged an SNP vote Scotland would be Tory free. Will SNP voters forget these factors? Solidarity are fielding well known candidates like IndyClimber Lindsay Jarrett in the Highlands and Islands and myself, Tommy Sheridan, in Glasgow. The mainstream media will ignore and denigrate Solidarity but many voters now ignore the mainstream media and get their news and ideas from social media. Solidarity will do well.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    I see Scottish Nationalist Socialist posters on here are seeking to equate unionism with Loyalism. Seeking to portray the "other" as something evil and contempible is standard Nationalist Socialist behaviour. Those who disagree with them and oppose the notion of One Scotland are not just political opponents, they are enemies.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    A lot of special pleading today from the legal profession.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,169

    I see Scottish Nationalist Socialist posters on here are seeking to equate unionism with Loyalism. Seeking to portray the "other" as something evil and contempible is standard Nationalist Socialist behaviour. Those who disagree with them and oppose the notion of One Scotland are not just political opponents, they are enemies.

    Crude, even for you.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:
    By using the term "Loyalist", you are deliberately trying to associate Unionism in Scotland with the (ongoing) conflict in Northern Ireland.
    It is used because it is accurate and a long standing term with centuries of history.

    If people feel offended by the term Loyalist they should be examining their loyalty to British Nationalism and not objecting to the use of an accurate term.
    Kevin McKenna is no loyalist but this is rather good

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/21/fair-equal-scotland-not-so-you-would-notice?CMP=share_btn_tw

    What of the rest of us? If there were prizes for soaring rhetoric about lifting our fellow Scots out of poverty and being all equal and fair, those of us who were part of the 45 and who then voted for the 56 would win them all.

    So, how many of us would be willing to pay more tax in a fiscally autonomous Scotland to ensure that the deficit was within manageable proportions and that vital public services remain intact?

    Until then, this SNP government will be remembered always as being the most socially progressive-sounding party we have ever had in a country that always talked a good game. Fair and equal Scotland, my arse.

    Interestingly, the SNP's Parliamentary Trade & Investment spokesperson has today rejected higher taxes and wealth distribution in Scotland.

    http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/interview-tasmina-ahmed-sheikh-the-snp-has-a-right-wing-and-here-she-is
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    I see Scottish Nationalist Socialist posters on here are seeking to equate unionism with Loyalism. Seeking to portray the "other" as something evil and contempible is standard Nationalist Socialist behaviour. Those who disagree with them and oppose the notion of One Scotland are not just political opponents, they are enemies.

    "portray the "other" as something evil and contempible"

    it goes on every single day on this site with nary a mention, most particularly with respect to economic migrants.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Dair said:

    Tactical voting DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT. Tactical voting is persuading enough of a percentage of voters to switch. It requires communication, knowledge, willingness and focus. None of which are guaranteed and none of which will happen. You NEVER get ALL the votes in a tactical vote, you get some of them.

    You talk good sense here, Mr Dair. There was a lot of tactical voting going on in the recent general election. A lot of it was brought about by the Tories, ramping up the fear of a weak Miliband government propped up by the SNP.

    The Tories on here go on and on about the size of the Conservative vote - conveniently forgetting this tactical element. It is not permanent.

    I wonder how much people here would estimate this tactical vote might have been worth to the Tories. It might be enough to bring down their percentage to 31% of those who cast their vote, or to just 21% of registered voters.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Historically, Loyalism is about being loyal to the Crown. The SNP is therefore Loyalist.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    edited June 2015
    Tomorrow's Matt meets with my approval

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CINwVb6WUAACdtD.jpg
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. Eagles, that's a fantastic cartoon.

    That said, I very much doubt that Tsipras is equal to Zeus in his mind's resource.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    You use the term "Loyalist" in Scotland, and its got one meaning which does directly relate to that recent 'unpleasantness'!

    Dair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dair If the SNP spend the entire election refusing to rule out pushing indyref2 as soon as they get back into power many weary No voting unionists may well see a few barcharts from the leaflets of whichever party was in second in 2011 saying 'only they can stop the SNP here etc' and vote accordingly, with a majority of 1 it only takes the loss of a handful of constituency seats for the SNP to lose its majority

    Ah back to that old canard.

    Even when academic research suggests that every time the Loyalists mentioned the Second Referendum, SNP support went up.

    Please, let the Tories and Labour play that card. Unfortunately I don't think they will get the chance. Westminster's failure to deliver Devo Max means that teh Second Referendum will be on the ballot.
    "Loyalist" is a Northern Ireland term.
    Its use long predates that recent upleasantness.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    I see Scottish Nationalist Socialist posters on here are seeking to equate unionism with Loyalism. Seeking to portray the "other" as something evil and contempible is standard Nationalist Socialist behaviour. Those who disagree with them and oppose the notion of One Scotland are not just political opponents, they are enemies.

    "portray the "other" as something evil and contempible"

    it goes on every single day on this site with nary a mention, most particularly with respect to economic migrants.

    Some of us point it out all the time. UKIP, the Tory right and the SNP have plenty in common, including a hatred of Barnett and redistributive policies generally.

  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Welsh Assembly news

    Former Labour MEP Baroness Eluned Morgan has announced she will seek selection to Assembly next year. She hasn't mentioned where.

    Irranca-Davies (Ogmore MP) will co-chair Labour 2016 campaign.

    Meanwhile on Plaid side, Mary Helen Jones is seeking selection on the regional list. She will also stand in Llanelli (she won it in 1999 and 2007 and lost it in 2003 and 2011).
    Simon Thomas (currently list AM) is seeking selection in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (3 way marginal in 2011) other than re-selection on the regional list.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    Mr. Eagles, that's a fantastic cartoon.

    That said, I very much doubt that Tsipras is equal to Zeus in his mind's resource.

    And The EU is more Rome than Troy.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. Eagles, the EU wishes it were Rome. It's closer to the Trebizond Empire.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    AndyJS, it transpires.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    Mr. Eagles, the EU wishes it were Rome. It's closer to the Trebizond Empire.

    I reckon the EU wanted to be Rome, hence the founding treaty being the Treaty of Rome.

    And who can blame them, wanting to be named after second best empire in human history.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    As others have said, an excellent article.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,158
    edited June 2015

    Mr. Eagles, that's a fantastic cartoon.

    That said, I very much doubt that Tsipras is equal to Zeus in his mind's resource.

    No, Tsipras = Leonidas!



    IMF Messenger: Choose your next words carefully, Mr. Tsipras. They may be your last as Greek PM.

    Alexis Tsipras: [to himself: thinking] "Earth and water"?
    [Tsipras unsheathes and points his sword at the IMF Messenger's throat]

    IMF Messenger: Madman! You're a madman!

    Alexis Tsipras: Earth and water? You'll find plenty of both down there.

    IMF Messenger: No man, German or Greek, no man threatens a messenger!

    Alexis Tsipras: You bring the ashes and ruins of conquered economies to Athens' city steps. You insult my wife. You threaten my people with slavery and death! Oh, I've chosen my words carefully, Bankster. Perhaps you should have done the same!

    IMF Messenger: This is blasphemy! This is madness!

    Alexis Tsipras: Madness...? This is SYRIZA!
    [kicks the IMF Messenger down the well]
  • Chris123Chris123 Posts: 174
    And meanwhile an ORV survey for The Independent finds that Andy Burnham is the candidate most widely perceived to increase Labour's chances in a general election:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-andy-burnham-considered-the-contender-most-likely-to-improve-partys-general-election-chances-10340208.html

    Absolutely agree with this finding and do think that he is the candidate most suited to appeal to the diverse groups of voters that Labour needs to gain sufficient votes to win a general election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,995
    Of course it was loyalists in North America who helped create Canada in the aftermath of the US War of Independence, a nation which still has a British Monarch as its head of state today
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    @Andrea, thanks once again for your sterling work keeping us all updated on selections etc, you remain one of PB.com's star posters.

    Welsh Assembly news

    Former Labour MEP Baroness Eluned Morgan has announced she will seek selection to Assembly next year. She hasn't mentioned where.

    Irranca-Davies (Ogmore MP) will co-chair Labour 2016 campaign.

    Meanwhile on Plaid side, Mary Helen Jones is seeking selection on the regional list. She will also stand in Llanelli (she won it in 1999 and 2007 and lost it in 2003 and 2011).
    Simon Thomas (currently list AM) is seeking selection in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (3 way marginal in 2011) other than re-selection on the regional list.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. Eagles, who do you think was better?

    [I'd guess us].

    But they fail to appreciate their own backwardness. Rome flourished in the great test of the Second Punic War and expanded rapidly afterwards due to almost pathological levels of self-sacrifice and patriotism. Common folk and Senate together saw off one of the greatest generals in world history and made an Empire that would last for centuries.

    The EU is the deceitful dream of an elite dragging the common folk by sly tricks and small steps into something they never wanted.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    For @Morris_Dancer

    Twitter
    Neil Henderson ‏@hendopolis 3 mins3 minutes ago
    FINANCIAL TIMES: Qatar based £8bn move puts F1 on track for breakthrough in the US. #tomorrowspaperstoday #BBCPapers
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2015
    Interesting — Newsnight leading on the UK arrest of a Rwandan spy chief.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33230130
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Thanks Fitalass.

    As I reported on previous thread, 2 more retirements announced at Holyrood today.
    fitalass said:

    @Andrea, thanks once again for your sterling work keeping us all updated on selections etc, you remain one of PB.com's star posters.

    Welsh Assembly news

    Former Labour MEP Baroness Eluned Morgan has announced she will seek selection to Assembly next year. She hasn't mentioned where.

    Irranca-Davies (Ogmore MP) will co-chair Labour 2016 campaign.

    Meanwhile on Plaid side, Mary Helen Jones is seeking selection on the regional list. She will also stand in Llanelli (she won it in 1999 and 2007 and lost it in 2003 and 2011).
    Simon Thomas (currently list AM) is seeking selection in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (3 way marginal in 2011) other than re-selection on the regional list.

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Twitter
    Phillip Blond@Phillip_Blond
    Fascinating discussion with @montie and @paddyashdown at dinner tonight Paddy thinks Lib-Dems are in less trouble than Labour
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    Mr. Eagles, who do you think was better?

    [I'd guess us].

    But they fail to appreciate their own backwardness. Rome flourished in the great test of the Second Punic War and expanded rapidly afterwards due to almost pathological levels of self-sacrifice and patriotism. Common folk and Senate together saw off one of the greatest generals in world history and made an Empire that would last for centuries.

    The EU is the deceitful dream of an elite dragging the common folk by sly tricks and small steps into something they never wanted.

    Yes, the British Empire was the best. Just think, no British empire and I'd be living in Pakistan, which would be awful on so many levels.

    See that's where I get annoyed at Eurosceptics.

    I genuinely believe the EU/EC was set up with noble intentions.

    In the previous few decades had been scarred by two world wars and saw many of her finest die.

    Countries that trade and intergrate with each other, are less likely to go to war.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited June 2015
    AndyJS said:

    Interesting — Newsnight leading on the UK arrest of a Rwandan spy chief.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33230130

    Newsnight is speaking about how the Met believe British critics of the Rwandan government are under credible risk of assassination by the Kagame regime.

    Why are we giving British taxpayer money to governments like this?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Miss Fitalass, that's interesting. There was a rumour Qatar wanted a race and wouldn't get one because Bahrain's got significant sway and would've vetoed it (and maybe Abu Dhabi would've objected too).

    But £8bn is serious cash. If that's happening, the Qataris would have the clout to (if they want it) get their own race.

    On ownership: when Ecclestone goes things will change a lot, at least structurally. It's an opportunity to try and get things right, although the big guns (major teams, largely) will still want disproportionate power/money.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    HYUFD said:

    Of course it was loyalists in North America who helped create Canada in the aftermath of the US War of Independence, a nation which still has a British Monarch as its head of state today

    And is full of Scots!

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    tommy said:

    Solidarity will field a strong list of candidates in each of the 8 regional lists. Their call will be SNP Constituency vote; Solidarity List vote. During the recent General Election Solidarity stood aside and encouraged voters to back the SNP as the biggest anti-austerity party and pro-independence party. Both the Greens and SSP stood candidates. the SSP votes were derisory but the Greens strategy effectively saved Scotland's only Tory, Mundell. If they had stood aside and encouraged an SNP vote Scotland would be Tory free. Will SNP voters forget these factors? Solidarity are fielding well known candidates like IndyClimber Lindsay Jarrett in the Highlands and Islands and myself, Tommy Sheridan, in Glasgow. The mainstream media will ignore and denigrate Solidarity but many voters now ignore the mainstream media and get their news and ideas from social media. Solidarity will do well.

    As long as there is an SSP and Solidarity and they are separate, they are both doomed to electoral failure.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Mr. Eagles, there's a city in Pakistan Alexander founded when his horse, Bucephalus, died there after he defeated the very competent Indian king Porus.

    Noble intentions? Perhaps. But not noble methods.

    Miss Fitalass, an interesting perspective from the hat-eater-in chief.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,158
    JEO said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting — Newsnight leading on the UK arrest of a Rwandan spy chief.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33230130

    Newsnight is speaking about how the Met believe British critics of the Rwandan government are under credible risk of assassination by the Kagame regime.

    Why are we giving British taxpayer money to governments like this?
    Rwanda is a Commonwealth member. Though they have introduced English as an official language before joining in 2009.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    JEO said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting — Newsnight leading on the UK arrest of a Rwandan spy chief.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33230130

    Newsnight is speaking about how the Met believe British critics of the Rwandan government are under credible risk of assassination by the Kagame regime.

    Why are we giving British taxpayer money to governments like this?
    Rwanda is a Commonwealth member. Though they have introduced English as an official language before joining in 2009.
    Mainly to stick two fingers up at the Belgians.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Andrew Mitchell seems to be arguing that because the Kagame army stopped the genocide, they shouldn't have to face justice on any other issue, and anyone saying otherwise is supporting genocidaires.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Phillip Blond@Phillip_Blond
    Fascinating discussion with @montie and @paddyashdown at dinner tonight Paddy thinks Lib-Dems are in less trouble than Labour

    Did Paddy offer to eat his hat if he was wrong?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,158

    Mr. Eagles, who do you think was better?

    [I'd guess us].

    But they fail to appreciate their own backwardness. Rome flourished in the great test of the Second Punic War and expanded rapidly afterwards due to almost pathological levels of self-sacrifice and patriotism. Common folk and Senate together saw off one of the greatest generals in world history and made an Empire that would last for centuries.

    The EU is the deceitful dream of an elite dragging the common folk by sly tricks and small steps into something they never wanted.

    Yes, the British Empire was the best. Just think, no British empire and I'd be living in Pakistan, which would be awful on so many levels.

    See that's where I get annoyed at Eurosceptics.

    I genuinely believe the EU/EC was set up with noble intentions.

    In the previous few decades had been scarred by two world wars and saw many of her finest die.

    Countries that trade and intergrate with each other, are less likely to go to war.
    It would have been even better with an elected Imperial Senate, like in Star Wars :)

    Today it would be known as Commonwealth Plus. But it would still have an Imperial-Vision Song Contest.

    And most of our European friends would have joined in 1973, with the Johnny-come-latelies in 1981, 1986, 1995, 2004, 2007 and 2013 :)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    edited June 2015

    Mr. Eagles, there's a city in Pakistan Alexander founded when his horse, Bucephalus, died there after he defeated the very competent Indian king Porus.

    Noble intentions? Perhaps. But not noble methods.

    Miss Fitalass, an interesting perspective from the hat-eater-in chief.

    My ancestors are from Jhelum, which is near where Bucephalus was buried
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509

    Miss Fitalass, that's interesting. There was a rumour Qatar wanted a race and wouldn't get one because Bahrain's got significant sway and would've vetoed it (and maybe Abu Dhabi would've objected too).

    But £8bn is serious cash. If that's happening, the Qataris would have the clout to (if they want it) get their own race.

    On ownership: when Ecclestone goes things will change a lot, at least structurally. It's an opportunity to try and get things right, although the big guns (major teams, largely) will still want disproportionate power/money.

    There's a small chance F1 will self-destruct when Bernie goes. He has been at the centre of it for so long, and also involved (he drove in a support race at the first F1 championship race in 1950, and has managed drivers since 1957), that it might prove very hard to disentangle things. Without him in the centre of the web, it might all fall apart.

    Certainly without the force of his personality and money to keep order, it is quite possible that everyone will just sue everyone else out of existence.

    I doubt that will happen, but it is a possibility.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,995
    SO Indeed and most decent patriots
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    TSE - Pakistan would not exist were it not for the British Empire; neither would dozens of other countries, including India. We invented the modern world. More or less.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Terrible heatwave in Pakistan:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33236067
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,995
    Chris123 Thanks, some interesting figures there, Burnham would most improve Labour's chances followed by Kendall the key finding


    'The Shadow Health Secretary was cited by 36 per cent when people were asked, irrespective of which party they would support, to say which of the four Labour candidates would most enhance the party’s prospects at the 2020 election.

    Liz Kendall, the shadow Care Minister who is seen as the Blairite candidate, came second on 25 per cent, with Yvette Cooper, the shadow HOME Secretary, on 20 per cent and Jeremy Corbyn, a left-wing backbencher, on 18 per cent.

    Mr Burnham enjoys strong support in the North West - the REGION from which he hails and where is MP for Leigh - as the party’s most likely vote-winner (44 per cent). He enjoys more backing among men (39 per cent) than women (33 per cent).

    Ms Kendall is regarded by young voters as the contender most likely to BOOST Labour’s appeal; 43 per cent of 18-24 year-olds describe her in this way. Her support is even among men and women. Ms Cooper is rated the most likely candidate to increase Labour’s chances by more women (22 per cent) than men (19 per cent).

    When people were asked which of the four runners would do most harm to Labour’s election
    prospects, Mr Corbyn was chosen by 33 per cent of those polled, Ms Cooper by 26 per cent, Mr Burnham by 22 per cent and Ms Kendall by 19 per cent.'
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-andy-burnham-considered-the-contender-most-likely-to-improve-partys-general-election-chances-10340208.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    edited June 2015
    Mr. Observer, d'you know the story behind India's timezone behind half an hour out of kilter with the rest of the world?

    Mr. Jessop, I agree it's a credible, albeit unlikely, scenario. I think the bigwigs (including the likes of Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and Williams) will want to keep it altogether, not least because they get preferential financial treatment and disproportionate decision-making power.

    Edited extra bit: just checking Wikipedia, and it's not mentioned so, unfortunately, the story I had in mind may not be true.

    Anyway, it was that India's time zone is half an hour of kilter because it's what you get if you turn a watch on British time upside down.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    TSE - Pakistan would not exist were it not for the British Empire; neither would dozens of other countries, including India. We invented the modern world. More or less.

    Oh God, that would have meant I would be an Indian, how terrible :lol:
  • Chris123Chris123 Posts: 174
    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Phillip Blond@Phillip_Blond
    Fascinating discussion with @montie and @paddyashdown at dinner tonight Paddy thinks Lib-Dems are in less trouble than Labour

    Sure they're in less trouble than Labour. Less than 2 months ago they had to worry about 57 seats - now they only have to worry about 8. That's 7x less trouble. At this rate, they'll only have to worry about 1 seat after the next election, maybe they won't have to worry about any... Paddy Ashdown himself is also likely to get into less "trouble." He's become irrelevant, nobody will take notice of him - he won't be invited for election night on the BBC. And there's no chance he will be embarrassing himself by vowing "to eat his hat" on TV.
  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 525
    edited June 2015
    Dair said:

    tommy said:

    Solidarity will field a strong list of candidates in each of the 8 regional lists. Their call will be SNP Constituency vote; Solidarity List vote. During the recent General Election Solidarity stood aside and encouraged voters to back the SNP as the biggest anti-austerity party and pro-independence party. Both the Greens and SSP stood candidates. the SSP votes were derisory but the Greens strategy effectively saved Scotland's only Tory, Mundell. If they had stood aside and encouraged an SNP vote Scotland would be Tory free. Will SNP voters forget these factors? Solidarity are fielding well known candidates like IndyClimber Lindsay Jarrett in the Highlands and Islands and myself, Tommy Sheridan, in Glasgow. The mainstream media will ignore and denigrate Solidarity but many voters now ignore the mainstream media and get their news and ideas from social media. Solidarity will do well.

    As long as there is an SSP and Solidarity and they are separate, they are both doomed to electoral failure.
    True, if Solidarity, SSP and Socialist Labour could combine their vote in Glasgow then there would be a decent chance of them getting a MSP elected. There was over 30k votes for the Socialist party in 2003 (more than double what the Tories got) and something around 10-12k is probably going to be enough to get 1 MSP this time around.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,973
    Kurds make progress in Syria: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-33234648

    Seems that the media pay far more attention when things are going well for ISIS than badly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038
    At Westminster I think the collapse of the Lib Dems gives the tories real chances of picking up more seats as the Unionist vote consolidates. But for Holyrood it is already too late. The Lib Dems only have 5 MSPs and their 2 constituency MSPs are in the islands of Orkney and Shetland where the Tories are very much not in contention.

    Their 3 list MSPs are vulnerable too but there is far less chance of this helping the Tories. There will be an effective swing from Labour to the Tories as a result of the collapse of the latter's vote and the Tories standing still but I am struggling to identify seats that might fall as a result. Dumfrieshire is one possibility but there are not many others.

    So I don't see an increase in Tory representation. They are likely once again to stand pretty still. Quite impressive in the face of an SNP hurricane but probably not enough for second place.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    On topic, this is far too much thinking - the only true bet is a gut bet!

    Yes, I've lost nearly all of the few bets I've ever made, why do you ask?*

    *was still in the black for 2015, thank you for UKIP's poor performance for that.

    I do like the idea Scottish Tories are 'surging' by standing still, or thereabouts at least (no need for more 'they are dying out' rebuttals).
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Mr. Eagles, who do you think was better?

    [I'd guess us].

    But they fail to appreciate their own backwardness. Rome flourished in the great test of the Second Punic War and expanded rapidly afterwards due to almost pathological levels of self-sacrifice and patriotism. Common folk and Senate together saw off one of the greatest generals in world history and made an Empire that would last for centuries.

    The EU is the deceitful dream of an elite dragging the common folk by sly tricks and small steps into something they never wanted.

    Yes, the British Empire was the best. Just think, no British empire and I'd be living in Pakistan, which would be awful on so many levels.

    See that's where I get annoyed at Eurosceptics.

    I genuinely believe the EU/EC was set up with noble intentions.

    In the previous few decades had been scarred by two world wars and saw many of her finest die.

    Countries that trade and intergrate with each other, are less likely to go to war.
    That is actually incorrect. You do not achieve stability through multinational democracies. Stability can only be achieved through there being a shared idenity. A lack of shared identity and you have a very unstable region. Since World War 2 a significant number of conflicts have been as a result of multinational states failing. The EU's inability to recognise this led to the slaughter of countless people in Yugoslavia.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    HYUFD said:

    Chris123 Thanks, some interesting figures there, Burnham would most improve Labour's chances followed by Kendall the key finding


    'The Shadow Health Secretary was cited by 36 per cent when people were asked, irrespective of which party they would support, to say which of the four Labour candidates would most enhance the party’s prospects at the 2020 election.

    Liz Kendall, the shadow Care Minister who is seen as the Blairite candidate, came second on 25 per cent, with Yvette Cooper, the shadow HOME Secretary, on 20 per cent and Jeremy Corbyn, a left-wing backbencher, on 18 per cent.

    Mr Burnham enjoys strong support in the North West - the REGION from which he hails and where is MP for Leigh - as the party’s most likely vote-winner (44 per cent). He enjoys more backing among men (39 per cent) than women (33 per cent).

    Ms Kendall is regarded by young voters as the contender most likely to BOOST Labour’s appeal; 43 per cent of 18-24 year-olds describe her in this way. Her support is even among men and women. Ms Cooper is rated the most likely candidate to increase Labour’s chances by more women (22 per cent) than men (19 per cent).

    When people were asked which of the four runners would do most harm to Labour’s election
    prospects, Mr Corbyn was chosen by 33 per cent of those polled, Ms Cooper by 26 per cent, Mr Burnham by 22 per cent and Ms Kendall by 19 per cent.'
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-andy-burnham-considered-the-contender-most-likely-to-improve-partys-general-election-chances-10340208.html

    That's very interesting. I was actually thinking about voting for Yvette instead because I was starting to wonder if she'd be more of a vote-winner, but these poll results certainly contradict that.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Phillip Blond@Phillip_Blond
    Fascinating discussion with @montie and @paddyashdown at dinner tonight Paddy thinks Lib-Dems are in less trouble than Labour

    !!!!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MP_SE said:

    Mr. Eagles, who do you think was better?

    [I'd guess us].

    But they fail to appreciate their own backwardness. Rome flourished in the great test of the Second Punic War and expanded rapidly afterwards due to almost pathological levels of self-sacrifice and patriotism. Common folk and Senate together saw off one of the greatest generals in world history and made an Empire that would last for centuries.

    The EU is the deceitful dream of an elite dragging the common folk by sly tricks and small steps into something they never wanted.

    Yes, the British Empire was the best. Just think, no British empire and I'd be living in Pakistan, which would be awful on so many levels.

    See that's where I get annoyed at Eurosceptics.

    I genuinely believe the EU/EC was set up with noble intentions.

    In the previous few decades had been scarred by two world wars and saw many of her finest die.

    Countries that trade and intergrate with each other, are less likely to go to war.
    That is actually incorrect. You do not achieve stability through multinational democracies. Stability can only be achieved through there being a shared idenity. A lack of shared identity and you have a very unstable region. Since World War 2 a significant number of conflicts have been as a result of multinational states failing. The EU's inability to recognise this led to the slaughter of countless people in Yugoslavia.
    Separitist nationalism has certainly spawned a number of civil wars and terrorist movements in Europe. Yugoslavia was an artificial construction forced on the nations there by other powers following the disintegration of Austria Hungary and the Ottomman empire. The EU was a willing parnership of democracies voluntarily joined together.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Danny565 said:

    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Phillip Blond@Phillip_Blond
    Fascinating discussion with @montie and @paddyashdown at dinner tonight Paddy thinks Lib-Dems are in less trouble than Labour

    !!!!
    A LD told me 18 months ago that in 10 years the party would have replaced Labour as the main centre left party due to Labour's problems. The LD core believers are not as numerous as other parties, and far less than they even feared in their worst nightmares, but there are a few, no question.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,158

    Mr. Observer, d'you know the story behind India's timezone behind half an hour out of kilter with the rest of the world?

    Mr. Jessop, I agree it's a credible, albeit unlikely, scenario. I think the bigwigs (including the likes of Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and Williams) will want to keep it altogether, not least because they get preferential financial treatment and disproportionate decision-making power.

    Edited extra bit: just checking Wikipedia, and it's not mentioned so, unfortunately, the story I had in mind may not be true.

    Anyway, it was that India's time zone is half an hour of kilter because it's what you get if you turn a watch on British time upside down.

    Mr Dancer, it's mainly because Delhi is in between the 75 degree and 90 degree meridians. 75 degrees = 5 hours difference, 90 degrees = 6 hours.
  • Chris123Chris123 Posts: 174
    edited June 2015
    Danny565 said:

    That's very interesting. I was actually thinking about voting for Yvette instead because I was starting to wonder if she'd be more of a vote-winner, but these poll results certainly contradict that.

    Really? She's very smart but she comes across as wooden and wonky. Andy is far more likable, he's got the "common touch." I can see Yvette appealing to retired headmistresses but not to working class Joe's that have gone over to UKIP or have become so disaffected with the whole political setup that they can't be bothered to vote.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    @AlanRoden: Tomorrow's Scottish Daily Mail: Nicola Sturgeon and the vile Internet trolls. #scotpapers #tomorrowspaperstoday http://t.co/sSkmZCP2D8
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Good news for Hillary:

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/23/hillary-clinton-presidential-election-poll

    "Hillary Clinton on course to win presidential election, poll says

    NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds former secretary of state is first choice in Democratic primary, and that she would go on to defeat Republican opponents"
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @kle4 Have you seen Proof or Dark Matter yet?

    Didn't think much of Proof myself, all very cookie cutter characters and plot.

    Dark Matter is hilarious - I haven't seen such low budget sci-fi since Red Dwarf - the plot is even based on a spaceship with a crew in stasis. It's packed with huge tracts of exposition and ridiculous leaps of logic. And it's all shot in/around a disused warehouse in Canada that they make no effort to disguise. I know it's Summer Filler, but it's had me laughing out loud for all the wrong reasons.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424
    edited June 2015
    MP_SE said:

    The EU's inability to recognise this led to the slaughter of countless people in Yugoslavia.

    I realise the EU has less chance of a fair hearing than the Guildford Six, but even by today's standards, there is a slight problem with assigning blame for the breakup of Yugoslavia (which started in 1991) to the EU (founded late 1993). The EU is not Skynet
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Let's have Balmoral back then

    @SkyNews: TIMES FRONT PAGE: "Scotland to cancel funding for Queen" #skypapers http://t.co/caskyKB3ii
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited June 2015
    Chris123 said:

    Danny565 said:

    That's very interesting. I was actually thinking about voting for Yvette instead because I was starting to wonder if she'd be more of a vote-winner, but these poll results certainly contradict that.

    Really? She's very smart but she comes across as wooden and wonky. Andy is far more likable, he's got the "common touch." I can see Yvette appealing to retired headmistresses but not to working class Joe's that have gone over to UKIP or have become so disaffected with the whole political setup that they can't be bothered to vote.
    I think there's some arguments for and against both Yvette and Andy. I do think Yvette looks like the most PM-ready, which surely is something really important to swing voters.

    I like Andy much more myself, and do suspect his personality could be exactly the right type to appeal to the small-town people who are so turned off by the type of metropolitan Labour professional politicians (especially white men). But if I'm honest, the Tories just seem SO convinced that Andy would be a dud as leader, that I'm starting to wonder if there's something in it, and there's something about him that I'm missing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,995
    Danny565/Chris123 Yes, looks like Burnham has the edge and not a bad poll for Kendall either, Yvette C the clear loser in terms of electability, Corbyn's backers will not be worried by his last place, they are voting on ideology alone
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424

    Countries that trade and intergrate with each other, are less likely to go to war.

    Unfortunately not true. Mostly speaking, people go to war with their close trading partners.The reason is simple: they're physically closer. If memory serves, Germany's biggest trading partner immediately before WW2 was France
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,995
    AndyJS Yes and Obama's approval up to 48% which helps but I think it will be very close even if she does win
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited June 2015
    AndyJS said:

    Good news for Hillary:

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/23/hillary-clinton-presidential-election-poll

    "Hillary Clinton on course to win presidential election, poll says

    NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds former secretary of state is first choice in Democratic primary, and that she would go on to defeat Republican opponents"

    Something we all know for a long time now, it's just a question of which candidate will the republicans select to lose against Hillary.

    That's why Trump has a chance to be that guy, since the republicans are destined to lose anyway they might decide to lose with style.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,995
    Speedy Jeb leads the GOP field in that poll he will be nominee after a tough primary battle and several other polls have it tighter, he is also a better politician than Romney, Trump going 3rd party could help Clinton
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Speedy said:

    AndyJS said:

    Good news for Hillary:

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/23/hillary-clinton-presidential-election-poll

    "Hillary Clinton on course to win presidential election, poll says

    NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds former secretary of state is first choice in Democratic primary, and that she would go on to defeat Republican opponents"

    Something we all know for a long time now, it's just a question of which candidate will the republicans select to lose against Hillary.

    That's why Trump has a chance to be that guy, since the republicans are destined to lose anyway they might decide to lose with style.
    Do you think Rand Paul would stand a chance?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,995
    edited June 2015
    Danny565 Conservative home had an article yesterday 'Andy Burnham is the candidate we should least look forward to' so even Tories are beginning to be a little concerned
    http://www.conservativehome.com/the-deep-end/2015/06/why-andy-burnham-is-the-labour-leader-we-should-least-look-forward-to.html

    Most of the pbTories would not vote Labour even if Maggie was resurrected to lead them so they are not the ones you really need to focus on
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