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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Andy Burnham should make sure this focus group from 2010 ge

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited June 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Andy Burnham should make sure this focus group from 2010 gets a wider audience

Thanks to Danny565 for posting this video on last night’s thread, it is a clip from a Newsnight focus group from 2010 of twelve voters from Bristol who didn’t vote Labour in 2010, about the then Labour Leadership election which eventually saw Ed Milband win.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    edited June 2015
    Just came back from doing the Liverpool Street to Chingford branch for the first time since it became part of London Overground at the end of last month. Only the Enfield and Cheshunt via Southbury branches left - maybe next weekend :)

    Oh - and Romford to Upminster left to do too
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    It's also noteworthy imo that this focus group was in the South (since there's been a theory that Andy would only do well in the North).

    I do think as this video shows he would be popular personally, since whether we like it or not a lot of people do judge politicians on whether they're down-to-earth or a nice guy. And it's total bollocks that they would find him too "left-wing". The one worry I still have about him as whether at the end of the day, however much they liked Andy, whether they'd find him to be a credible PM who could stack up against Cameron, as those couple of people at the end were hinting at.
  • handandmousehandandmouse Posts: 213
    Revelations that the director of communications for Burnham's campaign is a former lobbyist who counselled energy firm Ineos during the Grangemouth Industrial Dispute could be very harmful to Burnham's prospects should they gain traction:

    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/06/13/burnhams-spin-doctor-is-director-at-lobbyist-firm-that-advises-union-buster-ineos

    The candidate most likely to gain ground as a consequence of this is Yvette Cooper (or Jeremy Corbyn should he reach the ballot).
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    Revelations that the director of communications for Burnham's campaign is a former lobbyist who counselled energy firm Ineos during the Grangemouth Industrial Dispute could be very harmful to Burnham's prospects should they gain traction:
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/06/13/burnhams-spin-doctor-is-director-at-lobbyist-firm-that-advises-union-buster-ineos
    The candidate most likely to gain ground as a consequence of this is Yvette Cooper (or Jeremy Corbyn should he reach the ballot).

    I would have thought that ought to make Burnham the peoples choice.
    However the truth is not quite as you suggest
    Labour uncut say, ''Katie Myler, a former special adviser to Burnham when he was health secretary, now works for international lobbying company, Burson-Marsteller.
    They claim on their website that their staff have provided “senior counsel” to the Ineos “CEO and management team” during “the Grangemouth industrial dispute.” ''
    So she worked for Burnham when in office and its not clear she had any involvement in Grangemouth. The so called bitter 'union buster' dispute was actually about trying to keep the company solvent.
    In fact far worse is the next bit from Labour uncut ''She joins fellow lobbyist, John Lehal, who is acting as campaign director. His company, Insight Consulting Group, has worked for a string of private medical companies, ''
    Private medical companies!!!! A whole string of them!

    I am not sure poor Katie is the right person for Burnham though because a 2010 issue of PR Week points out ''Most recently she played a key role in Ed Miliband’s successful campaign for the leadership of the Labour Party and has been helping him in his transition to the position of Leader of the Opposition.''
    If you ask me alarm bells ought to be ringing for labour activists big time - if their heads haven't exploded already.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    Danny565 said:

    It's also noteworthy imo that this focus group was in the South (since there's been a theory that Andy would only do well in the North).

    I do think as this video shows he would be popular personally, since whether we like it or not a lot of people do judge politicians on whether they're down-to-earth or a nice guy. And it's total bollocks that they would find him too "left-wing". The one worry I still have about him as whether at the end of the day, however much they liked Andy, whether they'd find him to be a credible PM who could stack up against Cameron, as those couple of people at the end were hinting at.

    Yes, that's about my position too. I'm gradually leaning to Andy, but still wonder if Yvette will be thought the more heavyweight contender. Having waited patiently for Liz to say something more interesting than "I'm willing to shoot some sacred cows", I'm starting to think it's not coming.

    A curious thing is that after much criticism of the unions for over-influencing the last leadership election, they seem completely laid back about this one so far.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    Plato said:

    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.

    We discussed this programme a few weeks ago regarding animal cruelty. Personally, as Jeremy Wade always puts the fish he catches back in the river, don't have a problem :)
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Danny565 said:

    It's also noteworthy imo that this focus group was in the South (since there's been a theory that Andy would only do well in the North).

    I do think as this video shows he would be popular personally, since whether we like it or not a lot of people do judge politicians on whether they're down-to-earth or a nice guy. And it's total bollocks that they would find him too "left-wing". The one worry I still have about him as whether at the end of the day, however much they liked Andy, whether they'd find him to be a credible PM who could stack up against Cameron, as those couple of people at the end were hinting at.

    Yes, that's about my position too. I'm gradually leaning to Andy, but still wonder if Yvette will be thought the more heavyweight contender. Having waited patiently for Liz to say something more interesting than "I'm willing to shoot some sacred cows", I'm starting to think it's not coming.

    A curious thing is that after much criticism of the unions for over-influencing the last leadership election, they seem completely laid back about this one so far.

    Good choice. Vote for Andy.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    It's not cruel at all. A superb show and careful without being prissy.

    Plato said:

    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.

    We discussed this programme a few weeks ago regarding animal cruelty. Personally, as Jeremy Wade always puts the fish he catches back in the river, don't have a problem :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    edited June 2015
    I'm unconvinced by focus groups in general. They're wide open to experimenter bias, and the mob effect.

    The 'three minutes' is one such example. How do you choose a fair, representative three minutes? Even the order you run them in can affect things due to primacy and recency (people tend to most remember the first and last thing you tell them).

    If the first person to speak says "Ed Miliband is crap" it reduces the odds on another person expressing the contrary view.

    Edited extra bit: misread the article. The three minute clip point would appear not to run in this case, but in general focus groups get video clips, not face-to-face time.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,992
    edited June 2015
    Afternoon all :)

    For me, the big event of the coming week (apart from the LD election hustings of course) is Ascot and good to see the Tuesday final declarations out.

    SOLOW for me in the Queen Anne and MAKE BELIEVE in the St James's Palace. SHAMAL WIND may win the King's Stand for the Aussies and at a bigger price how about SHWAIMAN in the Ascot Stakes ?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    [snip]
    If the first person to speak says "Ed Miliband is crap" it reduces the odds on another person expressing the contrary view.

    The odds on someone expressing a contrary view in that example are vanishingly small anyway!

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. M, some people expressed the contrary view very often on pb.com.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    FPT - Interesting to watch that now. I'd concur that Burnham did best in that segment, perhaps because he focused on policy rather than platitudes. David Miliband was awful - addressing voters as if he were giving a brand strategy seminar.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Mr. M, some people expressed the contrary view very often on pb.com.

    And their utter utter wrongness was a thing of rare beauty to behold, was it not?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. M, Miliband had all the confidence of Varro. And the competence to match ;)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    I'm getting spammed by London Mayoral candidates fairly regularly, and mostly the contents are a bit generic ("We need dynamic new commitment", that sort of thing), but today's from Sadiq has nudged me towards supporting him: actually a concrete, attractive policy:

    http://us11.campaign-archive2.com/?u=17a553e5ca5e76d221cc1df19&id=505e51491a&e=8829405e91
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    NP Would that be his ethnic quotas policy..That alone should be enough to make him lose.. and badly.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,234
    At the moment I think I'll be ranking Andy above Yvette on the ballot. However, I don't know whether I'll be ranking Liz above or below the two of them. I need to see them all in the hustings.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504

    I'm getting spammed by London Mayoral candidates fairly regularly, and mostly the contents are a bit generic ("We need dynamic new commitment", that sort of thing), but today's from Sadiq has nudged me towards supporting him: actually a concrete, attractive policy:

    http://us11.campaign-archive2.com/?u=17a553e5ca5e76d221cc1df19&id=505e51491a&e=8829405e91

    Tell me, did you support Prescott's Pathfinder housing scheme when you were an MP?
  • BaskervilleBaskerville Posts: 391
    edited June 2015

    I'm getting spammed by London Mayoral candidates fairly regularly, and mostly the contents are a bit generic ("We need dynamic new commitment", that sort of thing), but today's from Sadiq has nudged me towards supporting him: actually a concrete, attractive policy:

    http://us11.campaign-archive2.com/?u=17a553e5ca5e76d221cc1df19&id=505e51491a&e=8829405e91

    Fact checking Sadiq:
    He says "the little social housing we have in London".
    Fact: 24% of housing in Greater London is classed as social housing (Mayor of London report 'Housing in London', 2014)
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @NickPalmer

    ' but today's from Sadiq has nudged me towards supporting him: actually a concrete, attractive policy:'

    'If a social home is sold in Islington North, a social home must be built in Islington North. One for one. Like for like.'

    How can it be an attractive policy if even as mayor he has no power to implement it?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Just looked Jeremy Wade on IMDb - what a fascinating character. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3953654/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm
    During his career he has achieved a number of notable 'firsts'. These include filming a large mystery creature in an Amazon lake (dubbed 'the Amazon Nessie' by BBC Wildlife magazine) which turned out to be a malformed pink river dolphin, and getting the first underwater footage (with cameraman Rick Rosenthal) of the 'Giant Devil Catfish' in India.

    His tenacity is to be admired as he studied Portuguese for three hours a day for three months to prepare for a trip to Brazil. He has since worked as a Portuguese-English translator and speaks a half dozen languages well enough to get around although, in an episode, he admits that German is not one of them.

    He became a TV personality beginning in 2002 hosting his first TV series, "Jungle Hooks," filmed for Discovery Europe which was highly popular and followed by "River Monsters" in 2009 which has achieved the highest-ever audience figures in the history of Animal Planet.
    Plato said:

    It's not cruel at all. A superb show and careful without being prissy.

    Plato said:

    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.

    We discussed this programme a few weeks ago regarding animal cruelty. Personally, as Jeremy Wade always puts the fish he catches back in the river, don't have a problem :)
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Well that was Sadiq's housing "idea" destroyed within four posts.
    PB can be a very cruel place sometimes.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Plato said:

    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.

    Plato, 'fraid I can't stand the show. Seen it two or three times stuck in hotel rooms with nothing else on. I keep on thinking cut the faux drama and show me the fish. It is always way to long a wait to see the fish to be worth the wasted time.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    Oh, I can put up with it. It's the Oh Look Cuddly Timber The Tiger Cub May DIE!!!!! stuff from most natural history progs that turn me right off.

    It's such deliberate tear-jerking that I end up laughing or turning the sound off. Anyone would think most species were endangered and barely able to sustain daily life according to most docus - and Mr Attenborough is a serial criminal here.
    MTimT said:

    Plato said:

    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.

    Plato, 'fraid I can't stand the show. Seen it two or three times stuck in hotel rooms with nothing else on. I keep on thinking cut the faux drama and show me the fish. It is always way to long a wait to see the fish to be worth the wasted time.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Danny565

    'It's also noteworthy imo that this focus group was in the South (since there's been a theory that Andy would only do well in the North).'

    Very small focus group based on 3 minute discussion and before Mid Staffs scandal.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    You've got me thinking about shows I'd watch when stuck in a hotel room.

    I'd go for Millionaire Matchmaker, Mob Wives and Bar Rescue - they're hilariously OTT but still feel quite real for reality tv.
    MTimT said:

    Plato said:

    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.

    Plato, 'fraid I can't stand the show. Seen it two or three times stuck in hotel rooms with nothing else on. I keep on thinking cut the faux drama and show me the fish. It is always way to long a wait to see the fish to be worth the wasted time.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Powers of the London Mayor:

    "On housing, the Mayor can produce a housing strategy that allows him or her to recommend the amount, type and location of new housing built in London.

    This ‘recommendation’ is subject to guidance from the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. Local Authorities in London must generally conform to this strategy.

    However, if the Mayor’s plans are in contradiction with UK national policy, the Secretary of State can otherwise direct the Mayor’s policy."

    https://fullfact.org/article/what_can_the_mayor_of_london_do-9159

    So, Sadiq would be limited in terms of legal power, were he to become Mayor, but it would do him no harm at all to be seen to be fighting for poorer Londoners.

    The one thing that he has to beware of with social housing is that it needs very careful handling. People are very sensitive to perceived fairness over its allocation.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    edited June 2015
    Off-topic: one for Sunil - historic railway songs.

    http://www.nrm.org.uk/RailwayStories/songs.aspx

    Including one for our nationalist friends: "Glasgow is Improving Daily"

    Obviously a sign of the benefits of the union. ;)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Something appears to have gone wrong for the Danish PM in recent days. The 16 most recent polls give the opposition a lead:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Danish_general_election,_2015
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    Rooney nearly scores against Slovenia!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Moses, an utter disgrace. It must be published, and as promptly as possible.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150

    Off-topic: one for Sunil - historic railway songs.

    http://www.nrm.org.uk/RailwayStories/songs.aspx

    Including one for our nationalist friends: "Glasgow is Improving Daily"

    Obviously a sign of the benefits of the union. ;)

    Remember, it was the North BRITISH Railway :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    MTimT said:

    Plato said:

    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.

    Plato, 'fraid I can't stand the show. Seen it two or three times stuck in hotel rooms with nothing else on. I keep on thinking cut the faux drama and show me the fish. It is always way to long a wait to see the fish to be worth the wasted time.
    One of my favourite wildlife shows - and recently my only excuse for watching ITV4 :lol:
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato when I am stuck in a hotel room and the TV is terrible.. I usually make my way to the bar or nearest boozer..
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Off-topic: one for Sunil - historic railway songs.

    http://www.nrm.org.uk/RailwayStories/songs.aspx

    Including one for our nationalist friends: "Glasgow is Improving Daily"

    Obviously a sign of the benefits of the union. ;)

    there can only be one historic railway song !!! Ever ever.... ;-)

    https://youtu.be/ig3GcDBjQN4
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    oops - Slovenia score :(
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Moses_ said:

    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

    Oh for god's sake. Surely it's in the public interest for someone to just leak the bloody thing already?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    kle4 said:

    Moses_ said:

    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

    Oh for god's sake. Surely it's in the public interest for someone to just leak the bloody thing already?
    Nail on head, must be the only document that hasn't been leaked? Where's Snowden when you need him?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    kle4 said:

    Moses_ said:

    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

    Oh for god's sake. Surely it's in the public interest for someone to just leak the bloody thing already?
    I was absolutely convinced that a LibDem would leak it during the election campaign as it would have benefited them most electorally.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    Moses_ said:

    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

    Sorry but this is just taking the piss now. Chilcot needs to be summoned to Parliament to explain under both oath and privilege why the F this hasn't been published yet.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    A pure guess: should he be driving keggy handed?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Feed the dogs...we need Chilcot
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    A pure guess: should he be driving keggy handed?
    Probably would be easier but nope! Not that.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    A pure guess: should he be driving keggy handed?
    Probably would be easier but nope! Not that.
    The kid seemed to approach from outside the cab?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Sandpit said:

    Moses_ said:

    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

    Sorry but this is just taking the piss now. Chilcot needs to be summoned to Parliament to explain under both oath and privilege why the F this hasn't been published yet.
    Quite. Even the article's comment about it being supposedly over a million pages doesn't hold water - it says those mentioned in the report had the draft before Xmas - not enough time to go through and prepare a response before the GE, it is said - but 18 months+ after that draft is received?

    Inexcusable and nonsensical.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Plato said:

    Oh, I can put up with it. It's the Oh Look Cuddly Timber The Tiger Cub May DIE!!!!! stuff from most natural history progs that turn me right off.

    It's such deliberate tear-jerking that I end up laughing or turning the sound off. Anyone would think most species were endangered and barely able to sustain daily life according to most docus - and Mr Attenborough is a serial criminal here.

    MTimT said:

    Plato said:

    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.

    Plato, 'fraid I can't stand the show. Seen it two or three times stuck in hotel rooms with nothing else on. I keep on thinking cut the faux drama and show me the fish. It is always way to long a wait to see the fish to be worth the wasted time.
    Agree with you on the cuti-cation of wildlife documentaries. Life in the wild is brutish. Just look at how nasty it is for wild horses, particularly the jilted stallions. But for all the nastiness, nearly all species survive.

    IMO, Conservationism should not be about trying to keep the world as it was x years ago, but more about preserving quantity and quality of habitat. Our focus on saving species, particularly the hopeless panda, is plain silly for anyone who accepts evolution.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Feed the dogs...we need Chilcot

    I am writing another history of the Iraq wmd programmes. Been waiting on Chilcott for at least 3 years now. Publish, already.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Plato when I am stuck in a hotel room and the TV is terrible.. I usually make my way to the bar or nearest boozer..

    Not so easy in Pakistan or Sudan. And I try to steer clear of lounging in restaurants too long, for fear of the waistline.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Joe Root is a fantastic slip catcher.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited June 2015
    Plato said:

    Oh, I can put up with it. It's the Oh Look Cuddly Timber The Tiger Cub May DIE!!!!! stuff from most natural history progs that turn me right off.

    It's such deliberate tear-jerking that I end up laughing or turning the sound off. Anyone would think most species were endangered and barely able to sustain daily life according to most docus - and Mr Attenborough is a serial criminal here.

    MTimT said:

    Plato said:

    Following on from discussions about modern day dinosaurs - there's an excellent series called River Monsters which tries to discover almost mythical animals that continue to lurk in far flung places. It really is quite gripping even if you're not into fishing. It's like Michael Palin for more serious investigators. See ITV4.

    So far, the guy has caught massive rays, prehistoric looking 8ft catfish, giant eels and something that could swallow you whole.

    Plato, 'fraid I can't stand the show. Seen it two or three times stuck in hotel rooms with nothing else on. I keep on thinking cut the faux drama and show me the fish. It is always way to long a wait to see the fish to be worth the wasted time.
    That is interesting as I don't believe that's been his universal intent - I recall a clip of him from a show talking about how he's received plenty of viewer letter criticism for the more disturbing things that were shown - and he responds to the effect that the stuff they leave on the cutting room floor is so much worse, but that it's important to show the disturbing stuff to some extent (I think this was in a piece about chimpanzees turning without warning on a young male and beating him to death) the intent being to reflect the truth without being gratuitously shocking. It may be the balance is not always there, particular as the viewing audience is often just looking for something suitable 'amazing', not some analysis of the realities of the natural world, which can be nasty as hell.

    Of course, in recent decades he doesn't determine the content or have that much input on that scripting as he would have in the early days, as I understand it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Moses_ said:

    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

    Sorry but this is just taking the piss now. Chilcot needs to be summoned to Parliament to explain under both oath and privilege why the F this hasn't been published yet.
    Quite. Even the article's comment about it being supposedly over a million pages doesn't hold water - it says those mentioned in the report had the draft before Xmas - not enough time to go through and prepare a response before the GE, it is said - but 18 months+ after that draft is received?

    Inexcusable and nonsensical.
    I can well believe that the total amount of evidence considered by the enquiry might be close to a million pages over the years, but the report is not going to be close to that length - 2000 reams of paper, 400 boxes per copy - no chance. Maybe a million words might be in the right ballpark, considering all the appendices.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    England seem condemned to lose for forgetting the first rule of limited overs cricket, that a team must use all the overs allocated to their innings.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    A pure guess: should he be driving keggy handed?
    Probably would be easier but nope! Not that.
    The kid seemed to approach from outside the cab?
    Yeah I guess he does when you look at it but nope. You will kick yourself when you finally spot it....
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    MTimT..My next major hotel stay is in a place near London on a five weeks shoot for the BBC..lotsa boozer time there
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    A pure guess: should he be driving keggy handed?
    Probably would be easier but nope! Not that.
    I'm lost then.

    As an aside, my family have always used 'keggy' or 'cack' handed to mean left-handed.

    Someone once told me a reason for the former. Drivers on the Midland used to stand on the left side of the loco, but those based south of Kettering used to stand on the right side of the cab - something that was done by the Great Northern, whose metals they shared until the Midland line to St Pancras was opened.

    Hence drivers and firemen from depots south of Kettering were referred to as 'Keggy handed', because they operated the controls with their left hand instead of the right.

    I've no idea if this is true, or even if it makes much sense (I'm not a steam loco driver). But I like the story. ;)
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    I don't know much about football. Do England play in white?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    scotslass said:

    I don't know much about football. Do England play in white?

    Only when they play during the week. They play in red at weekends.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    England equalise against Slovenia 1-1 (Wilshere)
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Really
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    A pure guess: should he be driving keggy handed?
    Probably would be easier but nope! Not that.
    I'm lost then.

    As an aside, my family have always used 'keggy' or 'cack' handed to mean left-handed.

    Someone once told me a reason for the former. Drivers on the Midland used to stand on the left side of the loco, but those based south of Kettering used to stand on the right side of the cab - something that was done by the Great Northern, whose metals they shared until the Midland line to St Pancras was opened.

    Hence drivers and firemen from depots south of Kettering were referred to as 'Keggy handed', because they operated the controls with their left hand instead of the right.

    I've no idea if this is true, or even if it makes much sense (I'm not a steam loco driver). But I like the story. ;)
    Great story and sounds very plausible I just remember the regular services pulled by steam trains on GWR line as is now. Can't remember what side they were driving on but the line heading west was the left side of the two tracks and so the signals were on that side so I guess those drivers would have been on that side and thus right handed drivers.

    When you said keggy handed I had to google it. I was more used to the term "keck handed " . Oddly my father was left handed and he was admonished constantly for it at school. He always had to write with his right hand or get the steel ruler. He said it proved great asset in later life because as a draftsman he could write and draw beautifully with either hand irrespective of what side his tea cup was on. Practical man he was.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Isn't Rooney meant to be good? He just missed an easy kick.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    For those interested the answer is to look at the top right hand corner of this opening screen and in particular at the name " Cannonball Express" . Something rather odd about it .........like back to front which is not normal on any steam train or engine.

    https://youtu.be/ig3GcDBjQN4
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    I quite like this game. Rooney just missed again.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,045
    scotslass said:

    I quite like this game. Rooney just missed again.

    If people didn't miss we'd end up with ridiculous scores like 24-30.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Apparantly he was off side in any case.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,418
    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    * About 9 seconds in, the plate on the engine saying "Cannonball Express" is backwards
    * The leftwards engineer sitting on the logs may be wearing a wristwatch (or its a shadow)
    * The sequence starts with trees on both sides of the rails, but ends on a treeless plain
    * The engine issues black smoke, but if wood-fired the smoke should be grey/white
    * The stormtrooper bangs his head on the door

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    RobD said:

    scotslass said:

    I quite like this game. Rooney just missed again.

    If people didn't miss we'd end up with ridiculous scores like 24-30.
    or 302 - 306
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    This Wiltshire seems better than Rooney. He has hit it in again.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    Wilshere scores again! 2-1 to England :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    scotslass said:

    I quite like this game. Rooney just missed again.

    If people didn't miss we'd end up with ridiculous scores like 24-30.
    or 302 - 306
    or 330-232?

    :lol:
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Rooney has just hit it at the other players.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    scotslass said:

    Rooney has just hit it at the other players.

    Scotland only managed a 1-1 draw against Ireland, yes?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    viewcode said:

    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    * About 9 seconds in, the plate on the engine saying "Cannonball Express" is backwards
    * The leftwards engineer sitting on the logs may be wearing a wristwatch (or its a shadow)
    * The sequence starts with trees on both sides of the rails, but ends on a treeless plain
    * The engine issues black smoke, but if wood-fired the smoke should be grey/white
    * The stormtrooper bangs his head on the door

    Very good. You win a Labour owl. Delivery pending....

    I was more thinking of the first one the name, as the others are sequential but agreed not good continuity I guess. I didn't spot the engineers wristwatch or the shadow.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    Ooops 2-2 now :(
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    This is very exciting.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    He (Rooney) has finally hit it in.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    It's OK 3-2 to England - Rooney!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    oops 3-2.

    Rooney finds the net, somewhere between neat and new in a dictionary.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    A pure guess: should he be driving keggy handed?
    Probably would be easier but nope! Not that.
    I'm lost then.

    As an aside, my family have always used 'keggy' or 'cack' handed to mean left-handed.

    Someone once told me a reason for the former. Drivers on the Midland used to stand on the left side of the loco, but those based south of Kettering used to stand on the right side of the cab - something that was done by the Great Northern, whose metals they shared until the Midland line to St Pancras was opened.

    Hence drivers and firemen from depots south of Kettering were referred to as 'Keggy handed', because they operated the controls with their left hand instead of the right.

    I've no idea if this is true, or even if it makes much sense (I'm not a steam loco driver). But I like the story. ;)
    Great story and sounds very plausible I just remember the regular services pulled by steam trains on GWR line as is now. Can't remember what side they were driving on but the line heading west was the left side of the two tracks and so the signals were on that side so I guess those drivers would have been on that side and thus right handed drivers.

    When you said keggy handed I had to google it. I was more used to the term "keck handed " . Oddly my father was left handed and he was admonished constantly for it at school. He always had to write with his right hand or get the steel ruler. He said it proved great asset in later life because as a draftsman he could write and draw beautifully with either hand irrespective of what side his tea cup was on. Practical man he was.
    I think GWR were driven from the right-hand side of the cab, whilst at grouping the three sane non copper-top companies settled on the left side, so the signals were on the driver's side of the train.

    The visibility issue this mess caused might have contributed to a crash in 1955 where 11 people died:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_rail_crash
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,418
    Moses_ said:

    viewcode said:

    Moses_ said:

    By the way...as its a quiet Sunday.....Anyone notice the deliberate railway mistake contained within that short sequence..... .

    * About 9 seconds in, the plate on the engine saying "Cannonball Express" is backwards
    * The leftwards engineer sitting on the logs may be wearing a wristwatch (or its a shadow)
    * The sequence starts with trees on both sides of the rails, but ends on a treeless plain
    * The engine issues black smoke, but if wood-fired the smoke should be grey/white
    * The stormtrooper bangs his head on the door

    Very good. You win a Labour owl. Delivery pending....
    Thank you

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    Full time - England 3 - Scotland Slovenia 2
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Going for the nuclear option?

    The radical wing of Greece's Syriza party is to table plans over coming days for an Icelandic-style default and a nationalisation of the Greek banking system, deeming it pointless to continue talks with Europe's creditor powers.
    Syriza sources say measures being drafted include capital controls and the establishment of a sovereign central bank able to stand behind a new financial system. While some form of dual currency might be possible in theory, such a structure would be incompatible with euro membership and would imply a rapid return to the drachma.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/11673989/Syriza-Left-demands-Icelandic-default-as-Greek-defiance-stiffens.html
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Is that a good win for England now?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,150
    scotslass said:

    Is that a good win for England now?

    Yes - remind me how Scotland did yesterday against Ireland.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Moses_ said:

    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

    Sorry but this is just taking the piss now. Chilcot needs to be summoned to Parliament to explain under both oath and privilege why the F this hasn't been published yet.
    Quite. Even the article's comment about it being supposedly over a million pages doesn't hold water - it says those mentioned in the report had the draft before Xmas - not enough time to go through and prepare a response before the GE, it is said - but 18 months+ after that draft is received?

    Inexcusable and nonsensical.
    It is not being published for something everyone knows. Bliar promised Bush Britain will go in with the US. Bliar turned into a jihadi after Kosovo.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited June 2015
    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Moses_ said:

    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

    Sorry but this is just taking the piss now. Chilcot needs to be summoned to Parliament to explain under both oath and privilege why the F this hasn't been published yet.
    Quite. Even the article's comment about it being supposedly over a million pages doesn't hold water - it says those mentioned in the report had the draft before Xmas - not enough time to go through and prepare a response before the GE, it is said - but 18 months+ after that draft is received?

    Inexcusable and nonsensical.
    It is not being published for something everyone knows. Bliar promised Bush Britain will go in with the US. Bliar turned into a jihadi after Kosovo.
    My thinking was that Chilcot has written his report and is now being absolutely drowned in lawyers from those mentioned within it - hence the need for him to explain to Parliament so that our elected representatives understand the reasons, and that those reasons become a matter of public record.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,418
    Moses_ said:

    Going for the nuclear option?

    The radical wing of Greece's Syriza party is to table plans over coming days for an Icelandic-style default and a nationalisation of the Greek banking system, deeming it pointless to continue talks with Europe's creditor powers.
    Syriza sources say measures being drafted include capital controls and the establishment of a sovereign central bank able to stand behind a new financial system. While some form of dual currency might be possible in theory, such a structure would be incompatible with euro membership and would imply a rapid return to the drachma.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/11673989/Syriza-Left-demands-Icelandic-default-as-Greek-defiance-stiffens.html

    Isn't this kind of a given at this point? I assume the process is "greece defaults on debts, ecb withdraws liquidity, greek banks collapse, greek government nationalises banks, imposes credit controls". Because the greeks have no stones they keep futzing around instead of just going ahead and doing it, but at his point it's about, what, three weeks away? Possibly this week?

    As to a forced conversion to non-euro, I hold the minority view that they cannot be forced and may continue on with the Euro, even tho they should convert out. I look forward to discovering what methodology the ECB will use to make them give it up, even though the Greeks have to date disobeyed everything.




  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Going for the Nuclear option .. This will soon become commonplace..The French are stopping the med boat migrants from Italy at Ventimiglia and the Germans are stopping them at the Brenner Pass...This seems to be breaking all of the EU rules re freedom of movement.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The Med Migrant problem should not be Italy,s alone.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    viewcode said:

    Moses_ said:

    Going for the nuclear option?

    The radical wing of Greece's Syriza party is to table plans over coming days for an Icelandic-style default and a nationalisation of the Greek banking system, deeming it pointless to continue talks with Europe's creditor powers.
    Syriza sources say measures being drafted include capital controls and the establishment of a sovereign central bank able to stand behind a new financial system. While some form of dual currency might be possible in theory, such a structure would be incompatible with euro membership and would imply a rapid return to the drachma.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/11673989/Syriza-Left-demands-Icelandic-default-as-Greek-defiance-stiffens.html

    Isn't this kind of a given at this point? I assume the process is "greece defaults on debts, ecb withdraws liquidity, greek banks collapse, greek government nationalises banks, imposes credit controls". Because the greeks have no stones they keep futzing around instead of just going ahead and doing it, but at his point it's about, what, three weeks away? Possibly this week?

    As to a forced conversion to non-euro, I hold the minority view that they cannot be forced and may continue on with the Euro, even tho they should convert out. I look forward to discovering what methodology the ECB will use to make them give it up, even though the Greeks have to date disobeyed everything.




    "Gabriel said "a couple of game theorists in the Greek government believe that in the end the fear in Europe that Greece might leave (the euro) is so great that we'll agree to anything. That's not the case.""

    Ouch!! 'a couple of game theorists'. Now that's a (well-dserved) put down.

    I am now 99% convinced that default is going to happen. The only way it does not is if Tsipras caves completely.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    The Med Migrant problem should not be Italy,s alone.

    Agreed. I don't know how Schengen addresses asylum seekers, but IIRC the general principal is that it is only the first country that an asylum seeker makes it to that has the obligation to assess the claim. While that claim is pending, any third country is within rights to refuse entry or even return the claimant to first country of asylum.

    Economic migrants without visas are in the EU illegally. They have any rights to freedom of movement within the Schengen area, and hence France and Germany would be within their rights to refuse entry.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Sandpit said:

    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Moses_ said:

    O/T sort off...

    I reckon we will never see this report.

    Will Iraq War report EVER be published? Row erupts as Chilcot Inquiry is delayed for another year
    £10million, six-year inquiry will not be published for 'at least another year'
    Calls for an urgent statement in Parliament on Sir John Chilcot's work
    David Cameron urged to consider pulling the plug on the entire process


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123526/Will-Iraq-War-report-published-Row-erupts-Chilcot-Inquiry-delayed-year.html#ixzz3d3ByJW6u

    Sorry but this is just taking the piss now. Chilcot needs to be summoned to Parliament to explain under both oath and privilege why the F this hasn't been published yet.
    Quite. Even the article's comment about it being supposedly over a million pages doesn't hold water - it says those mentioned in the report had the draft before Xmas - not enough time to go through and prepare a response before the GE, it is said - but 18 months+ after that draft is received?

    Inexcusable and nonsensical.
    It is not being published for something everyone knows. Bliar promised Bush Britain will go in with the US. Bliar turned into a jihadi after Kosovo.
    My thinking was that Chilcot has written his report and is now being absolutely drowned in lawyers from those mentioned within it - hence the need for him to explain to Parliament so that our elected representatives understand the reasons, and that those reasons become a matter of public record.
    The people who are holding up the report's release should be named, even if the changes they are asking for are not detailed.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    scotslass said:

    Is that a good win for England now?

    Yes - remind me how Scotland did yesterday against Ireland.
    They did very well and are on the verge of qualifying for the second guaranteed position . Good luck to Gordon and the plucky Scots !
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    MTimT..I agree ...but right now Italy is really being hit hard and I personally feel that the rest of the EU is reluctant to get in there and help out..This is not a good thing for the EU in general and it needs to be resolved rather quickly..This situation bolsters the claims of the BOO campaign
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