I said that he set up the original inquiry, which is entirely correct.
Confidential and public inquiries have their pros and cons. Confidential inquiries are speedier, cheaper and often people are able to speak more frankly.
The 10 hospitals with worse SHIMI (Standardised Hospital Inpatient Mortality Index) than Stafford have not had public inquiries.
It was Labour who brought such statistics into the public domain, in part to drive improvements.
Off to work now, but while I have many disagreements with Labours management of the NHS (it was a major reason that I left the party) Burnhams role is not one of them.
You said "Burnham set up the Stafford inquiry". You ignored the fact there were two inquiries, and the one he set up was widely criticised.
Confidential inquiries also allow for cover-ups, stitch-ups and the truth to be hidden more easily than a public inquiry, and it is much harder for them to command the confidence of the victims, their relatives and the public at large.
Given the awful behaviour of some people who supported Stafford towards the campaigners and whistleblowers, it is obvious that the openness of a public inquiry was required.
It's particularly gross on Burnham's part as he (rightly) vocally supports the Hillsborough Inquiry.
I guess Liverpudlians are more deserving of the truth than Staffordians.
Very funny..but not unexpected .PB lefties are killing Cameron off again...how many times does that make it.
It sounds as if it is the PB righties that have him in their sights. The PB lefties are just enjoying their popcorn.
If Cameron expels cabinet ministers for campaigning Out, then it will improve it significantly.
PB lefties of the Labour variety would be better off looking at who leads their own party. I daresay as a caring, competent doctor, Burnham would not be getting your vote if you are/were a Labour member?
Cameron has been underestimated on here time and time again. We even saw the 'lucky general' meme brought out the other day. He has a very difficult course to navigate wrt the referendum, but he's sailed such courses before.
On the other hand, you have an 'out' vote that is likely to be led by that hopeless idiot, the unelectable (*) Farage. It'll be no contest. Sadly.
(*) Except by party lists.
I would be quite happy with Burnham. He was fine as Minister for Health. Far better than Hewitt, Reid or Milburn who were all malignant. He would be running for PM not Minister of Health this time round.
On Farage: who ever is the official face of Out, it will be Farage who is seen as the spokesperson. He is a media tart and unable to shun the limelight. In his own words: Never has the party been so unified around me"
So you would be happy with someone who does not support inquiries into the health service because it may hurt the trust's reputation?
Wow.
You really are one of the producers.
If he did that for health, imagine what he would do as PM.
Let me repeat: Burnham's scum.
You press the personal attack button too readily, Josias, both here and in assessing public figures. Most people, in particular most people interested in the NHS like Fox and certainly most members like Burnham - the question to be decided is whether he looks rime Ministerial enough. What we think personally isn't really the issue here - we're discussing what the membership thinks and then the wider electorate.
Off to Holland for a conference, so signing off for a while.
Most Labour supporters may like Burnham but that doesn't really matter, to win an election Burnham will have to command a much broader support, beyond the core Labour support he he will be a massive turn off, probably even more so than Miliband.
Anybody who has seen his exchanges with Hunt in the commons would quickly realise Burnham isn't even that good.
For the good of the nation Labour people like you need to go for somebody else, any of the other candidates would do far better than Burnham.
Cameron is not negotiating on his own behalf, he is negotiating on behalf of the UK government. If ministers do not like what the UK government does and do not feel they can defend the line it takes, then they have to leave. It was ever thus. The only surprise is that anyone might have thought otherwise.
Cameron is fighting the last war: Major versus the flapping white coats. Wilson held Labour together by allowing ministers do follow their consciences.
FIFA's books were signed off for 16 years... now the heat is on the auditors
KPMG have signed off FIFA's books for the last 16 years Questions remain as to how the current scandal will affect them Mo Farah must ask his coach Alberto Salazar the tough questions The protest about the Spinnaker Tower has set a new level of risibility
Macisback..Burnham is brilliant.. With regard to the Hilsborough Inquiry it must finally reach the conclusion that it was Liverpudlians that crushed other Liverpudlians to death..not the police..whose inept handling of The situation allowed events to take place..but no copper killed a Liverpudlian.
Macisback..Burnham is brilliant.. With regard to the Hilsborough Inquiry it must finally reach the conclusion that it was Liverpudlians that crushed other Liverpudlians to death..not the police..whose inept handling of The situation allowed events to take place..but no copper killed a Liverpudlian.
The panel discovered that as many as 41 victims of the disaster on 15 April 1989 might have been saved had the emergency response been better. They also found that 116 of the 164 police statements taken afterwards were doctored to show the police in a better light, and that the South Yorkshire ambulance service had also altered statements to deflect criticism.
I thought the bell end that runs Wings over Scotland was the biggest idiot on the internet when it comes to talking about Hillsborough, you're running him a close second, you must be proud.
Macisback..Burnham is brilliant.. With regard to the Hilsborough Inquiry it must finally reach the conclusion that it was Liverpudlians that crushed other Liverpudlians to death..not the police..whose inept handling of The situation allowed events to take place..but no copper killed a Liverpudlian.
The inquiry's not really into that, is it? It is into the cover-up by the police and possibly others. As such, I thoroughly support it.
For David Miliband to become Labour leader, he'd really need to be an MP first, but I doubt the next Labour leader will be keen to help David, a potential rival, get back into the commons. Thus, no Labour MPs are likely to resign their seats to make way for him. Instead, he'd need to wait for a natural vacancy.
However, there are other routes back into UK politics for David.
He could become the Labour candidate for London mayor. It's an high profile position, which he could use the same way as Boris Johnson has.
Alternately, the next Labour leader could put David in the Lords. That'd rule him out of future leadership elections, but it would let him fill the elder statesman role, and be one of the public faces of Labour.
JJ..The Police rather stupidly did cover up,but every interview I have seen with Liverpool people has attemPted to cast the blame for the deaths onto the Police..It is the mindset in Liverpool..simply because they cannot live with the idea that it was Liverpool football fans that killed other Liverpool football fans..and yes..the police were stupid in this instance.
The Kippers are worried they're going to lose and have their fox shot. Easier to complain we haven't had a vote, than know you've lost one.
Yep. This is why they were, rightly, terrified of Cameron, and campaigned against a referendum. They know they'll lose.
Very encouraging to see Farage wanting the Out campaign to feuture himself prominently. That's worth about eight or ten points net to In, I would guess.
TSE..from one bellend to another..did the police crush anybody to death...no..they made a mistake that allowed it to happen..then compounded the mistake by trying to cover it up..but they did not crush anyone to death.. that was done by soccer fans.
TSE..from one bellend to another..did the police crush anybody to death...no..they made a mistake that allowed it to happen..then compounded the mistake by trying to cover it up..but they did not crush anyone to death.. that was done by soccer fans.
Mr Cameron told the House of Commons the panel found the safety of the crowds at Hillsborough had been "compromised at every level".
He said "deficiencies" at the ground were well known and it failed to meet minimum safety standards.
The prime minister apologised for the double injustice, which was both in the "failure of the state to protect their loved ones and the indefensible wait to get to the truth", and in the efforts to denigrate the deceased and suggest that they were "somehow at fault for their own deaths".
David Miliband is not an Elder statesman.. he was a disaster as Foreign Minister.and was beaten by another geek for the top Labour job. Why should he be given a Peerage.
Macisback..Burnham is brilliant.. With regard to the Hilsborough Inquiry it must finally reach the conclusion that it was Liverpudlians that crushed other Liverpudlians to death..not the police..whose inept handling of The situation allowed events to take place..but no copper killed a Liverpudlian.
The inquiry's not really into that, is it? It is into the cover-up by the police and possibly others. As such, I thoroughly support it.
So do I but not the composition of the panel who produced the report, too many links to Liverpool to be truly independent. Police lies and cover ups, sadly expected but they were put under enormous pressure outside the ground, a cocktail of events led to the disaster but the decisions of the Police command was the main factor, as stated in the Taylor Report.
Cameron is not negotiating on his own behalf, he is negotiating on behalf of the UK government. If ministers do not like what the UK government does and do not feel they can defend the line it takes, then they have to leave. It was ever thus. The only surprise is that anyone might have thought otherwise.
Cameron is fighting the last war: Major versus the flapping white coats. Wilson held Labour together by allowing ministers do follow their consciences.
It's the same war, it never ended.
But the practical problem here is that Cameron is going to be coming back from his all-night crisis summit with Hollande and Merkel (*) saying his new "renegotiation" is the bee's knees. It's going to be hard for opponents to argue that the whole thing's really a pile of pants without also appearing to suggest that Cameron is full of shit. This is hard to reconcile with serving in his cabinet.
(*) I always suspect they just sit around at these things watching old Monty Python films and smoking weed, but they have be able to tell their respective electorates they're making the effort.
Regards Hillsborough, unfortunately semi finals and finals were notorious for fans trying to get in without tickets. I believe that was very much a contributory factor on that day. That's not to excuse the police - after all most of the fans that lost their lives did have tickets - and they had a right to be protected from other supporters.
What annoys me is the reluctance of anyone associated with Liverpool to acknowledge this as part of the problem. Instead they implicitly condone ticketless supporters by arguing that it was unfair that they got the Leppings Lane End rather than the larger Kop End.
Thankfully things are different today and the organization of major football games is much better.
This explains why the Eurosceptics are so frustrated.
Eurosceptics at war: Leading Tories campaigning for EU exit fear they may be doomed to defeat already thanks to infighting between anti-Brussels factions
Divisions emerged as Ukip's Nigel Farage vowed to lead charge for EU exit
Many Eurosceptic Tories believe he is too outspoken and will deter voters
Ex-Cabinet Minister John Redwood was booed by Ukip activists at meeting
TSE..from one bellend to another..did the police crush anybody to death...no..they made a mistake that allowed it to happen..then compounded the mistake by trying to cover it up..but they did not crush anyone to death.. that was done by soccer fans.
The behavior outside created pressure but there were plans used on previous similar events to deal with that, tradgically the tunnel wasn't sealed off when the central pen was full, from that the crush was inevitable. The football supporters can't be blamed for that it was a Police tactical error.
You could argue what happened both outside on the day and generally to what led to those conditions at Hillsbrough fences, pens etc that fan behavior was a driver and in those conditions at some point a major disaster of this nature, far from unlikely.
David Miliband is not an Elder statesman.. he was a disaster as Foreign Minister.and was beaten by another geek for the top Labour job. Why should he be given a Peerage.
What matters here is how David Miliband is seen by the Labour party, not the general public. If the party sees him as an elder statesman figure, they may treat him accordingly, including giving him some suitably eminent position.
The main reason for a future Labour leader to get David a peerage would be to get him on board, in a way that pretty much prevents him challenging for the top job.
On the topic at hand, surely what Labour need in a new leader and senior team are clean skins with 'modernising' tendencies (in the Labour context); preferably people who did not play a front line role in the previous Labour government with all the attending baggage, economic and otherwise that such connections would entail? I can't see Miliband the Elder fitting that bill and not convinced that a return to Parliament only to sit on the backbenches would hold much appeal for him.
You're probably right, but Labour now has the Tories' 1997-2005 problem of not really having enough MPs to come up with decent candidates. What they're doing in lieu is seize on anyone who hasn't already conspicuously failed in office, this approach being the nearest available thing to your prescription. Hence the hopes vested in nonentities like Liz Kendall and Mary Creagh, neither of whom I had ever heard of a month ago.
On that reading of the runes, Butcher is thus unsuitable, because he has failed already; he has mid-Staffs blood all over his hands. So that just leaves Mrs. Balls and her permascowl.
A risk to Labour from electing her is that, as their first-ever XX leader (a post to which Batty Hattie has never actually been elected), they will probably have sexist qualms about ditching her mid-term when she proves an Ed-esque disaster. It will look like bullying the helpless little woman, who is helpless and little, because she's a woman. As her replacement would certainly be a man, to ditch her for being useless will be considered sexism rather than rational and meritocratic. So however useless she is, they will be stuck with Yvette till 2020.
Regards Hillsborough, unfortunately semi finals and finals were notorious for fans trying to get in without tickets. I believe that was very much a contributory factor on that day. That's not to excuse the police - after all most of the fans that lost their lives did have tickets - and they had a right to be protected from other supporters.
What annoys me is the reluctance of anyone associated with Liverpool to acknowledge this as part of the problem. Instead they implicitly condone ticketless supporters by arguing that it was unfair that they got the Leppings Lane End rather than the larger Kop End.
Thankfully things are different today and the organization of major football games is much better.
Not sure that is true. There was a big crush when Spurs played Wolves at Hillsborough in the 1981 semi-final, lots of injuries though thankfully very few serious ones. That had nothing to do with ticketless fans and everything to do with Leppings Lane not being fit for purpose:
Robert of Sheffield.. If the Labour party elevates a non MP to the Lords it will make them even more of a laughing stock than they already are..The public will see straight through that as being a very cynical stunt...and like me they might just be sick of another failed politician being put pack on the taxpayer funded payroll
Regards Hillsborough, unfortunately semi finals and finals were notorious for fans trying to get in without tickets. I believe that was very much a contributory factor on that day. That's not to excuse the police - after all most of the fans that lost their lives did have tickets - and they had a right to be protected from other supporters.
What annoys me is the reluctance of anyone associated with Liverpool to acknowledge this as part of the problem. Instead they implicitly condone ticketless supporters by arguing that it was unfair that they got the Leppings Lane End rather than the larger Kop End.
Thankfully things are different today and the organization of major football games is much better.
I think tickets is a red herring on Hillsborough, all the evidence suggests there were not huge numbers without tickets, of what I have no doubt significant numbers seeing the queues would have wanted to put pressure on the Police to open the gates, rather than queue through the turnstiles. That was the mentality at that time and to a degree exists today.
Macisback..Burnham is brilliant.. With regard to the Hilsborough Inquiry it must finally reach the conclusion that it was Liverpudlians that crushed other Liverpudlians to death..not the police..whose inept handling of The situation allowed events to take place..but no copper killed a Liverpudlian.
The inquiry's not really into that, is it? It is into the cover-up by the police and possibly others. As such, I thoroughly support it.
So do I but not the composition of the panel who produced the report, too many links to Liverpool to be truly independent. Police lies and cover ups, sadly expected but they were put under enormous pressure outside the ground, a cocktail of events led to the disaster but the decisions of the Police command was the main factor, as stated in the Taylor Report.
Fortunately the Taylor inquiry seemed to produce recommendations that have made football safer, even if, according to some, the experience is more 'sterile'.
I feel sorry for the relatives of the victims, but I also feel sorry for the police involved, even if I do not condone the lying. Nobody wanted the incident to happen, and it would be nice (picking up on RD's comment below) if more in Liverpool admitted that.
But the police lies made a repeat more likely as lessons from the mistakes made by the police would not be learnt. Fortunately the changes following the Taylor report mitigated the chances of it happening again. They solved the problem, at least for stadia, by a different route.
ISTR reading somewhere that there have been massive improvements in the modelling of the way crowds behave: it was not realised that an orderly crowd behaves very differently to a disorderly one motivated by something, e.g. getting in in time. The modelling is extensively used in stadium design.
Mr. Eagles, in their defence, Cameron's position is likely to be very stupid. The only way it isn't is if he makes the French take Henry V as their new patron saint and the EU pays us £10bn a year for the privilege of having us in their club of economic failure, or he campaigns to leave.
Robert of Sheffield.. If the Labour party elevates a non MP to the Lords it will make them even more of a laughing stock than they already are..The public will see straight through that as being a very cynical stunt...and like me they might just be sick of another failed politician being put pack on the taxpayer funded payroll
Quite likely, but as the recent election demonstrated, the current top Labour figures aren't exactly great judges of the public mood.
Basically, there are four questions.
* Might any of the prospective Labour leaders think putting David Miliband in the Lords was a good idea? * If he was offered a peerage would he accept, or would he rather try and get back in the Commons? * Is David a viable Labour candidate for Mayor of London, or any other major elected mayoralty that may be created? * Would he be interested in such a role?
I saw an amazing documentary comparing stadium design today by the chappy who created the Bird's Nest and several other arenas. He took the Roman Colosseum crowd control design vs Bird's Nest - it was neck and neck to get punters out of the stadium in an emergency. He also demonstrated how stadium covering was done by Romans.
The whole history series of modern vs ancient construction design was stunning. There's a docu on the rebuilding of the platforms used to bring lions into the Colosseum ring is based on this show and quite gobsmacking.
Macisback..Burnham is brilliant.. With regard to the Hilsborough Inquiry it must finally reach the conclusion that it was Liverpudlians that crushed other Liverpudlians to death..not the police..whose inept handling of The situation allowed events to take place..but no copper killed a Liverpudlian.
The inquiry's not really into that, is it? It is into the cover-up by the police and possibly others. As such, I thoroughly support it.
So do I but not the composition of the panel who produced the report, too many links to Liverpool to be truly independent. Police lies and cover ups, sadly expected but they were put under enormous pressure outside the ground, a cocktail of events led to the disaster but the decisions of the Police command was the main factor, as stated in the Taylor Report.
ISTR reading somewhere that there have been massive improvements in the modelling of the way crowds behave: it was not realised that an orderly crowd behaves very differently to a disorderly one motivated by something, e.g. getting in in time. The modelling is extensively used in stadium design.
Mr. Eagles, in their defence, Cameron's position is likely to be very stupid. The only way it isn't is if he makes the French take Henry V as their new patron saint and the EU pays us £10bn a year for the privilege of having us in their club of economic failure, or he campaigns to leave.
Neither seems likely.
They said Cameron was stupid, when he threatened to boycott the debates.
Macisback..Burnham is brilliant.. With regard to the Hilsborough Inquiry it must finally reach the conclusion that it was Liverpudlians that crushed other Liverpudlians to death..not the police..whose inept handling of The situation allowed events to take place..but no copper killed a Liverpudlian.
The inquiry's not really into that, is it? It is into the cover-up by the police and possibly others. As such, I thoroughly support it.
So do I but not the composition of the panel who produced the report, too many links to Liverpool to be truly independent. Police lies and cover ups, sadly expected but they were put under enormous pressure outside the ground, a cocktail of events led to the disaster but the decisions of the Police command was the main factor, as stated in the Taylor Report.
Fortunately the Taylor inquiry seemed to produce recommendations that have made football safer, even if, according to some, the experience is more 'sterile'.
ISTR reading somewhere that there have been massive improvements in the modelling of the way crowds behave: it was not realised that an orderly crowd behaves very differently to a disorderly one motivated by something, e.g. getting in in time. The modelling is extensively used in stadium design.
I think it's a shame that we've lost terracing. I go to away games and we always stand (as do Liverpool's away fans btw) and I've lost count of the number of times I've come away with bruises from banging my legs against the seats.
Crowd modeling has come a long way - though mistakes still happen. The problems experienced at London Bridge after Christmas are a good example.
Mr. Eagles, I didn't say Cameron was stupid over his debate stance.
This is a different matter.
Others did, the very same who are criticising Dave today.
Thatcher wouldn't have allowed members of her government to campaign against her, the fact that Eurosceptics are citing the weak, divided Harold Wilson Government as a precedent sums up the weakness of their position.
To those thinking that the referendum is all over bar the shouting and IN has it in the bag... We live in strange and volatile times... Just ask Ed Miliband.
The referendum campaign hasn't even reached the end of the beginning yet. This referendum will be much closer than anybody think's at the moment.
What will he do if May, Gove, Hammond, IDS, Grayling and Patel all decide to up and leave?
Plank!
They won't do that. It only makes sense to leave if you're the most senior Tory to do it, and thus inherit the leadership of the "out" faction.
This makes things tricky for the lower-downs, because they could resign their jobs only to find somebody more senior does the same and takes away your upside.
Cameron should get May or Boris or someone to pretend that they might jump, then change their minds at the last minute. That should keep the rest of them in the tent until it's too late.
To those thinking that the referendum is all over bar the shouting and IN has it in the bag... We live in strange and volatile times... Just ask Ed Miliband.
The referendum campaign hasn't even reached the end of the beginning yet. This referendum will be much closer than anybody think's at the moment.
You can still get 100/1 and 25/1 on Sol Campbell being the next London Mayor/The Tory Candidate for London Mayor
Former England captain Sol Campbell has confirmed he will stand for election to replace Boris Johnson as London’s mayor next year.
Campbell, who officially retired from football in 2012 having been released by Newcastle, will appear at a hustings with the rest of the Conservative party’s candidates on 4 July after revealing his intention to stand over the weekend.
To those thinking that the referendum is all over bar the shouting and IN has it in the bag... We live in strange and volatile times... Just ask Ed Miliband.
There was never any volatility to Ed's crapness, the cringe-inducing Milifandom notwithstanding.
Miss Plato, a small prediction: Out will copy that with Juncker and Cameron. It'll fail entirely, because most people have no idea who Juncker is *and* the law of diminishing returns will apply.
I see the USA is trying to tell us what to do Re. the EU... Another reason to vote OUT and tell the Yank's where to stick their interfering once and for all!
I see the USA is trying to tell us what to do Re. the EU... Another reason to vote OUT and tell the Yank's where to stick their interfering once and for all!
Did you say the same when Barack said Scotland should remain in the UK?
I see the USA is trying to tell us what to do Re. the EU... Another reason to vote OUT and tell the Yank's where to stick their interfering once and for all!
Did you say the same when Barack said Scotland should remain in the UK?
Can'r remember, but winding up Malc aside, I was always pretty relaxed about Scotland b*ggering off if that's what they wanted to do.
What will he do if May, Gove, Hammond, IDS, Grayling and Patel all decide to up and leave?
Plank!
The electorate is much less trusting of politicians than in 1975. If the voters spot a cosy establishment consensus then the temptation to overturn it will be considerable.
What's interesting about that is despite all the lazy journalism about "an aging population" which is going to cause such a crisis for our NHS and Social Services the percentage of the population over 65 has not changed in a decade.
TSE..from one bellend to another..did the police crush anybody to death...no..they made a mistake that allowed it to happen..then compounded the mistake by trying to cover it up..but they did not crush anyone to death.. that was done by soccer fans.
The behavior outside created pressure but there were plans used on previous similar events to deal with that, tradgically the tunnel wasn't sealed off when the central pen was full, from that the crush was inevitable. The football supporters can't be blamed for that it was a Police tactical error.
You could argue what happened both outside on the day and generally to what led to those conditions at Hillsbrough fences, pens etc that fan behavior was a driver and in those conditions at some point a major disaster of this nature, far from unlikely.
Yet none of those fences, pens etc caused fatal consequences in the Forest part of the ground.
Nobody ever mentions what the Forest fans had to go through on that day, as they stood in their well-ordered masses, seeing what was happening at the other end.
What's interesting about that is despite all the lazy journalism about "an aging population" which is going to cause such a crisis for our NHS and Social Services the percentage of the population over 65 has not changed in a decade.
Who says immigration doesn't work?
Even if immigrants didn't age it was found they cost 118bn from 1995 to 2011 and that was based on parameters, comparing different age groups was one such fiddle, meant to show the opposite.
What will he do if May, Gove, Hammond, IDS, Grayling and Patel all decide to up and leave?
Plank!
The electorate is much less trusting of politicians than in 1975. If the voters spot a cosy establishment consensus then the temptation to overturn it will be considerable.
Indeed.
Give the establishment a bloody good kicking, tell the Yanks and Juncker and Merkel and the French where to stick it...
Macisback..Burnham is brilliant.. With regard to the Hilsborough Inquiry it must finally reach the conclusion that it was Liverpudlians that crushed other Liverpudlians to death..not the police..whose inept handling of The situation allowed events to take place..but no copper killed a Liverpudlian.
The panel discovered that as many as 41 victims of the disaster on 15 April 1989 might have been saved had the emergency response been better. They also found that 116 of the 164 police statements taken afterwards were doctored to show the police in a better light, and that the South Yorkshire ambulance service had also altered statements to deflect criticism.
I thought the bell end that runs Wings over Scotland was the biggest idiot on the internet when it comes to talking about Hillsborough, you're running him a close second, you must be proud.
I believe the assumption is that all Liberpudlians are psychic and had perfect knowledge of the state of every single person in the crowd.
Orrrrrrr some people are morons who don't understand how crowd dynamics work.
The deceased were certainly not responsible for their own deaths..it was the idiots behind them that caused them to die...
Well that is offensively ridiculous.
Are you seriously suggesting that people going into the back of the Leppings lane terrace knew that they were going to cause people to die? That they should have somehow psychically or magically been aware of what was going on at the front? That THEY should have been responsible for the consequences their decision to enter the ground, and not the police in charge of crowd control?
Mr. Gin, nice idea, but the whole Establishment as well as the BBC will be very much In. Against will be UKIP, who will put off more than they attract, and half the Conservatives. Hard to see Out winning. Coming close may also be unlikely.
What's interesting about that is despite all the lazy journalism about "an aging population" which is going to cause such a crisis for our NHS and Social Services the percentage of the population over 65 has not changed in a decade.
Who says immigration doesn't work?
Even if immigrants didn't age it was found they cost 118bn from 1995 to 2011 and that was based on parameters, comparing different age groups was one such fiddle, meant to show the opposite.
jONCISNBACK I had to visit the morgue where all of he bodies were delivered a few days after the event and the attendants there told me that there were groups of supporters outside bemoaning the fact that they were trying to stop the crowds pushing in and were told where to go ..in no uncertain terms.. even though people were screaming and shouting down at the front.. and no..the people at the back were probably unaware of what was happening...I have never said they were..but they were all from Liverpool..no coppers among them..
TSE..from one bellend to another..did the police crush anybody to death...no..they made a mistake that allowed it to happen..then compounded the mistake by trying to cover it up..but they did not crush anyone to death.. that was done by soccer fans.
The behavior outside created pressure but there were plans used on previous similar events to deal with that, tradgically the tunnel wasn't sealed off when the central pen was full, from that the crush was inevitable. The football supporters can't be blamed for that it was a Police tactical error.
You could argue what happened both outside on the day and generally to what led to those conditions at Hillsbrough fences, pens etc that fan behavior was a driver and in those conditions at some point a major disaster of this nature, far from unlikely.
Yet none of those fences, pens etc caused fatal consequences in the Forest part of the ground.
Nobody ever mentions what the Forest fans had to go through on that day, as they stood in their well-ordered masses, seeing what was happening at the other end.
Totally different at the other end, more turnstiles, space and only the front perimeter fence, no dividing fences. One thing is for certain though the view Liverpool supporters on that day were blameless has little sympathy neither from Forest fans who were there, or local Sheffield residents, who were witness to the general conduct and attitude before the game.
Mr. Gin, nice idea, but the whole Establishment as well as the BBC will be very much In. Against will be UKIP, who will put off more than they attract, and half the Conservatives. Hard to see Out winning. Coming close may also be unlikely.
Let's wait and see what emerges... I think there's going to be a shock!
I see the USA is trying to tell us what to do Re. the EU... Another reason to vote OUT and tell the Yank's where to stick their interfering once and for all!
Did you say the same when Barack said Scotland should remain in the UK?
Poodles , always at USA's beck and call, "fetch Rover"
Is this the calm before the storm? or are we already in the eye of the tornado? You know things are in a bad way when the DT is reluctant to open up the comments section:
What's interesting about that is despite all the lazy journalism about "an aging population" which is going to cause such a crisis for our NHS and Social Services the percentage of the population over 65 has not changed in a decade.
Who says immigration doesn't work?
Even if immigrants didn't age it was found they cost 118bn from 1995 to 2011 and that was based on parameters, comparing different age groups was one such fiddle, meant to show the opposite.
I see the USA is trying to tell us what to do Re. the EU... Another reason to vote OUT and tell the Yank's where to stick their interfering once and for all!
Did you say the same when Barack said Scotland should remain in the UK?
Poodles , always at USA's beck and call, "fetch Rover"
Shouldn’t there be a semi colon after “call”, and a comma between “fetch” and “Rover"?
"The second unofficial Labour Leadership hustings event took place today with all five candidates (Jeremy Corbyn MP was a last minute addition after his late announcement) speaking on a panel at the Fabian Society summer conference.
They started out being asked for the six words that could encapsulate their vision for Britain. Your author has tried her best to take these down word for word (not all of them stuck to six):
Andy Burnham said “A Labour Government will help everyone get on”. Yvette Cooper said “Jobs, Growth, Fairer county for all” Mary Creagh said “Power, wealth and opportunity in the hands of the many” Liz Kendall said “Power, wealth and opportunity for all”. Jeremy Corbyn said “Housing, world peace, equality and human rights”.........
Jeremy Corbyn and Andy Burnham were both furthest to the left when it came to defending the comprehensive system. Mary Creagh and Liz Kendall chose instead to focus on the effects of education – with Kendall describing it as the key to tackling inequality and Creagh quoting Einstein while attacking Michael Gove.
The related issue of tuition fees also divided the candidates, with Corbyn offering to abolish them and both Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper proposing to move to a system of a graduate tax. Liz Kendall said that she would not abolish fees, putting her spending emphasis instead on the early years.....
Liz Kendall drew gasps from the crowd when she said that while Socialism isn’t dead, it must fundamentally reform itself and that Labour must care as much about wealth creation as wealth redistribution (as it is that wealth that pays for public services). She also found a possibly unlikely ally in Jeremy Corbyn when she expanded the point to say that we must not confuse Socialism with Statism and we should redistribute power as much – if not more so – than money."
Mr. Eagles, I didn't say Cameron was stupid over his debate stance.
This is a different matter.
Others did, the very same who are criticising Dave today.
Thatcher wouldn't have allowed members of her government to campaign against her, the fact that Eurosceptics are citing the weak, divided Harold Wilson Government as a precedent sums up the weakness of their position.
Actually Thatcher had a lot more sense than either you or Cameron.
When the pit closures were being proposed the MP for Newark Richard Alexander went to the PM and said he could not support her in Parliament over the issue because of the impact on his constituents. She agreed and ordered the whips not to push him over the issue. He voted against pit closures on every occasion.
Thatcher recognised the need for MPs to follow their consciences in such matters. Cameron - and you - apparently do not.
I see the USA is trying to tell us what to do Re. the EU... Another reason to vote OUT and tell the Yank's where to stick their interfering once and for all!
Did you say the same when Barack said Scotland should remain in the UK?
Poodles , always at USA's beck and call, "fetch Rover"
"The leadership and deputy leadership campaigns still have a long way to run. The candidates are finding their feet, and their voice. They have to do at least two different things at the same time to avoid the costly hiatus of opposition that occurred in 2010: speak to both the Labour party electorate and the country as a whole.
Obviously some big changes are needed. That same loyalist, the then more youthful Mr Campbell of 20 years ago, warned in his Spectator column about the consequences for Labour if it did not get its act together in opposition ahead of the next big electoral test:
“The Labour Party…may look suspiciously like the one that lost the last election, committed to fairness, justice and equality and unable to convince the public that it can deliver any of the above.”
Mr. Eagles, I didn't say Cameron was stupid over his debate stance.
This is a different matter.
Others did, the very same who are criticising Dave today.
Thatcher wouldn't have allowed members of her government to campaign against her, the fact that Eurosceptics are citing the weak, divided Harold Wilson Government as a precedent sums up the weakness of their position.
Actually Thatcher had a lot more sense than either you or Cameron.
When the pit closures were being proposed the MP for Newark Richard Alexander went to the PM and said he could not support her in Parliament over the issue because of the impact on his constituents. She agreed and ordered the whips not to push him over the issue. He voted against pit closures on every occasion.
Thatcher recognised the need for MPs to follow their consciences in such matters. Cameron - and you - apparently do not.
But would she have done the same if Alexander had been a Minister? She would have shown him the door.....
I doubt if the whip will be applied to Tory backbenchers.
Mr. Eagles, I didn't say Cameron was stupid over his debate stance.
This is a different matter.
Others did, the very same who are criticising Dave today.
Thatcher wouldn't have allowed members of her government to campaign against her, the fact that Eurosceptics are citing the weak, divided Harold Wilson Government as a precedent sums up the weakness of their position.
Actually Thatcher had a lot more sense than either you or Cameron.
When the pit closures were being proposed the MP for Newark Richard Alexander went to the PM and said he could not support her in Parliament over the issue because of the impact on his constituents. She agreed and ordered the whips not to push him over the issue. He voted against pit closures on every occasion.
Thatcher recognised the need for MPs to follow their consciences in such matters. Cameron - and you - apparently do not.
Edited - JohnO has replied more elegantly than I ever could
Liz Kendall drew gasps from the crowd when she said that while Socialism isn’t dead, it must fundamentally reform itself and that Labour must care as much about wealth creation as wealth redistribution (as it is that wealth that pays for public services). She also found a possibly unlikely ally in Jeremy Corbyn when she expanded the point to say that we must not confuse Socialism with Statism and we should redistribute power as much – if not more so – than money."
I see the USA is trying to tell us what to do Re. the EU... Another reason to vote OUT and tell the Yank's where to stick their interfering once and for all!
Did you say the same when Barack said Scotland should remain in the UK?
Poodles , always at USA's beck and call, "fetch Rover"
Like Salmond drooling over Donald Trump.
Things soon went sour with Don and Alex though didn't they?
As far as David Milliband is concerned, no, no, no! The more talented brother led Labour to a poor result so why chose an inferior product now?
As far as the other candidates are concerned, I weep. No point sugar-coating it, the cupboard is well and truly bare. Ed Milliband is a giant compared to these guys and gals.
A strong Labour party is not just good for the poor, deprived and under-privileged in our society but it is a also good for the country at large - at the moment we are a long-way from that. Events may play a huge part but the path back to political power looks extremely difficult.
"The second unofficial Labour Leadership hustings event took place today with all five candidates (Jeremy Corbyn MP was a last minute addition after his late announcement) speaking on a panel at the Fabian Society summer conference.
They started out being asked for the six words that could encapsulate their vision for Britain. Your author has tried her best to take these down word for word (not all of them stuck to six):
Andy Burnham said “A Labour Government will help everyone get on”. Yvette Cooper said “Jobs, Growth, Fairer county for all” Mary Creagh said “Power, wealth and opportunity in the hands of the many” Liz Kendall said “Power, wealth and opportunity for all”. Jeremy Corbyn said “Housing, world peace, equality and human rights”.........
Jeremy Corbyn and Andy Burnham were both furthest to the left when it came to defending the comprehensive system. Mary Creagh and Liz Kendall chose instead to focus on the effects of education – with Kendall describing it as the key to tackling inequality and Creagh quoting Einstein while attacking Michael Gove.
The related issue of tuition fees also divided the candidates, with Corbyn offering to abolish them and both Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper proposing to move to a system of a graduate tax. Liz Kendall said that she would not abolish fees, putting her spending emphasis instead on the early years.....
Liz Kendall drew gasps from the crowd when she said that while Socialism isn’t dead, it must fundamentally reform itself and that Labour must care as much about wealth creation as wealth redistribution (as it is that wealth that pays for public services). She also found a possibly unlikely ally in Jeremy Corbyn when she expanded the point to say that we must not confuse Socialism with Statism and we should redistribute power as much – if not more so – than money."
I see the USA is trying to tell us what to do Re. the EU... Another reason to vote OUT and tell the Yank's where to stick their interfering once and for all!
Did you say the same when Barack said Scotland should remain in the UK?
Poodles , always at USA's beck and call, "fetch Rover"
Like Salmond drooling over Donald Trump.
Things soon went sour with Don and Alex though didn't they?
But until they did, Salmond was dry humping The Trump's leg, like a randy spaniel.
Mr. Eagles, I didn't say Cameron was stupid over his debate stance.
This is a different matter.
Others did, the very same who are criticising Dave today.
Thatcher wouldn't have allowed members of her government to campaign against her, the fact that Eurosceptics are citing the weak, divided Harold Wilson Government as a precedent sums up the weakness of their position.
Actually Thatcher had a lot more sense than either you or Cameron.
When the pit closures were being proposed the MP for Newark Richard Alexander went to the PM and said he could not support her in Parliament over the issue because of the impact on his constituents. She agreed and ordered the whips not to push him over the issue. He voted against pit closures on every occasion.
Thatcher recognised the need for MPs to follow their consciences in such matters. Cameron - and you - apparently do not.
But would she have done the same if Alexander had been a Minister? She would have shown him the door.....
I doubt if the whip will be applied to Tory backbenchers.
I believe she would have held the line as long as negotiations were underway but then have allowed Ministers to follow their conscience once the campaign started. To do otherwise will make it seem (rightly) that Cameron is trying to railroad through a non deal.
As I said before my hope is that this rips the Tory party apart and they then have to rebuild from scratch with Cameron and his Europhile support excised. I doubt it will happen but it is a nice dream.
Thanks for the namecheck in the article, Mr Dancer, always good to have a very green weekend. After Saturday's success following your Force India tips, I went with twenties on my two bets. Bottas podium came in at 4/1 but Safety car lost at 1/2. £80 up for the day covers a nice meal for Mrs Sandpit ;-)
Comments
Confidential inquiries also allow for cover-ups, stitch-ups and the truth to be hidden more easily than a public inquiry, and it is much harder for them to command the confidence of the victims, their relatives and the public at large.
Given the awful behaviour of some people who supported Stafford towards the campaigners and whistleblowers, it is obvious that the openness of a public inquiry was required.
It's particularly gross on Burnham's part as he (rightly) vocally supports the Hillsborough Inquiry.
I guess Liverpudlians are more deserving of the truth than Staffordians.
Anybody who has seen his exchanges with Hunt in the commons would quickly realise Burnham isn't even that good.
For the good of the nation Labour people like you need to go for somebody else, any of the other candidates would do far better than Burnham.
Augustus is obviously Sajid Javid, Mark Antony is George Osborne, Brutus could be Michael Gove.
With regard to the Hilsborough Inquiry it must finally reach the conclusion that it was Liverpudlians that crushed other Liverpudlians to death..not the police..whose inept handling of The situation allowed events to take place..but no copper killed a Liverpudlian.
I thought the bell end that runs Wings over Scotland was the biggest idiot on the internet when it comes to talking about Hillsborough, you're running him a close second, you must be proud.
However, there are other routes back into UK politics for David.
He could become the Labour candidate for London mayor. It's an high profile position, which he could use the same way as Boris Johnson has.
Alternately, the next Labour leader could put David in the Lords. That'd rule him out of future leadership elections, but it would let him fill the elder statesman role, and be one of the public faces of Labour.
Very encouraging to see Farage wanting the Out campaign to feuture himself prominently. That's worth about eight or ten points net to In, I would guess.
He said "deficiencies" at the ground were well known and it failed to meet minimum safety standards.
The prime minister apologised for the double injustice, which was both in the "failure of the state to protect their loved ones and the indefensible wait to get to the truth", and in the efforts to denigrate the deceased and suggest that they were "somehow at fault for their own deaths".
But the practical problem here is that Cameron is going to be coming back from his all-night crisis summit with Hollande and Merkel (*) saying his new "renegotiation" is the bee's knees. It's going to be hard for opponents to argue that the whole thing's really a pile of pants without also appearing to suggest that Cameron is full of shit. This is hard to reconcile with serving in his cabinet.
(*) I always suspect they just sit around at these things watching old Monty Python films and smoking weed, but they have be able to tell their respective electorates they're making the effort.
What annoys me is the reluctance of anyone associated with Liverpool to acknowledge this as part of the problem. Instead they implicitly condone ticketless supporters by arguing that it was unfair that they got the Leppings Lane End rather than the larger Kop End.
Thankfully things are different today and the organization of major football games is much better.
Eurosceptics at war: Leading Tories campaigning for EU exit fear they may be doomed to defeat already thanks to infighting between anti-Brussels factions
Divisions emerged as Ukip's Nigel Farage vowed to lead charge for EU exit
Many Eurosceptic Tories believe he is too outspoken and will deter voters
Ex-Cabinet Minister John Redwood was booed by Ukip activists at meeting
http://dailym.ai/1IxnIMu
You could argue what happened both outside on the day and generally to what led to those conditions at Hillsbrough fences, pens etc that fan behavior was a driver and in those conditions at some point a major disaster of this nature, far from unlikely.
The main reason for a future Labour leader to get David a peerage would be to get him on board, in a way that pretty much prevents him challenging for the top job.
On that reading of the runes, Butcher is thus unsuitable, because he has failed already; he has mid-Staffs blood all over his hands. So that just leaves Mrs. Balls and her permascowl.
A risk to Labour from electing her is that, as their first-ever XX leader (a post to which Batty Hattie has never actually been elected), they will probably have sexist qualms about ditching her mid-term when she proves an Ed-esque disaster. It will look like bullying the helpless little woman, who is helpless and little, because she's a woman. As her replacement would certainly be a man, to ditch her for being useless will be considered sexism rather than rational and meritocratic. So however useless she is, they will be stuck with Yvette till 2020.
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/canada-post-race-analysis.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-28095597
They gave Spurs the smallest end though the club had many more fans than Wolves. Exactly the same thing happened with Liverpool and Forest.
Might've been very different if Farage had gone.
I feel sorry for the relatives of the victims, but I also feel sorry for the police involved, even if I do not condone the lying. Nobody wanted the incident to happen, and it would be nice (picking up on RD's comment below) if more in Liverpool admitted that.
But the police lies made a repeat more likely as lessons from the mistakes made by the police would not be learnt. Fortunately the changes following the Taylor report mitigated the chances of it happening again. They solved the problem, at least for stadia, by a different route.
ISTR reading somewhere that there have been massive improvements in the modelling of the way crowds behave: it was not realised that an orderly crowd behaves very differently to a disorderly one motivated by something, e.g. getting in in time. The modelling is extensively used in stadium design.
Neither seems likely.
A victory for freedom and common sense.
Basically, there are four questions.
* Might any of the prospective Labour leaders think putting David Miliband in the Lords was a good idea?
* If he was offered a peerage would he accept, or would he rather try and get back in the Commons?
* Is David a viable Labour candidate for Mayor of London, or any other major elected mayoralty that may be created?
* Would he be interested in such a role?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVfQdjpXa4k
The whole history series of modern vs ancient construction design was stunning. There's a docu on the rebuilding of the platforms used to bring lions into the Colosseum ring is based on this show and quite gobsmacking.
How'd that turn out?
Dave knows what he is doing.
Crowd modeling has come a long way - though mistakes still happen. The problems experienced at London Bridge after Christmas are a good example.
What will he do if May, Gove, Hammond, IDS, Grayling and Patel all decide to up and leave?
Plank!
This is a different matter.
Thatcher wouldn't have allowed members of her government to campaign against her, the fact that Eurosceptics are citing the weak, divided Harold Wilson Government as a precedent sums up the weakness of their position.
The referendum campaign hasn't even reached the end of the beginning yet. This referendum will be much closer than anybody think's at the moment.
This makes things tricky for the lower-downs, because they could resign their jobs only to find somebody more senior does the same and takes away your upside.
Cameron should get May or Boris or someone to pretend that they might jump, then change their minds at the last minute. That should keep the rest of them in the tent until it's too late.
This is a foolish decision by Cameron, unless he either gets a fantastic deal or campaigns for Out.
You can still get 100/1 and 25/1 on Sol Campbell being the next London Mayor/The Tory Candidate for London Mayor
Former England captain Sol Campbell has confirmed he will stand for election to replace Boris Johnson as London’s mayor next year.
Campbell, who officially retired from football in 2012 having been released by Newcastle, will appear at a hustings with the rest of the Conservative party’s candidates on 4 July after revealing his intention to stand over the weekend.
http://bit.ly/1AWw2mx
https://twitter.com/ONS/status/607834314634633216
Who says immigration doesn't work?
Nobody ever mentions what the Forest fans had to go through on that day, as they stood in their well-ordered masses, seeing what was happening at the other end.
Best hope would seem to be a Pyrrhic victory whereby Grexit leads to a domino effect and there's nothing left to leave.
Give the establishment a bloody good kicking, tell the Yanks and Juncker and Merkel and the French where to stick it...
What's not to like?
In the past year, he's won a majority, and won the Scottish independence referendum.
He's like the Man of Steel (Clark Kent, not Josef Stalin) mild mannered on the outside, but hard as nails underneath
Orrrrrrr some people are morons who don't understand how crowd dynamics work.
Are you seriously suggesting that people going into the back of the Leppings lane terrace knew that they were going to cause people to die? That they should have somehow psychically or magically been aware of what was going on at the front? That THEY should have been responsible for the consequences their decision to enter the ground, and not the police in charge of crowd control?
Idiotic and ignorant drivel.
Now that I think of it, Eddie Izzard will no doubt be campaigning for In which could be enough on its own to doom their chances.
http://www.conservativehome.com/video/2015/06/watch-baker-conservatives-for-britain-exists-to-assess-the-renegotiation-and-to-prepare-for-an-out-campaign.html
Is this the calm before the storm? or are we already in the eye of the tornado? You know things are in a bad way when the DT is reluctant to open up the comments section:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11658391/david-cameron-cabinet-ultimatum-eu-referendum.html
http://www.migrationwatchuk.co.uk/briefing-paper/1.41
http://labourlist.org/2015/06/labour-leadership-candidates-face-off-over-education-europe-and-scotland/
"The second unofficial Labour Leadership hustings event took place today with all five candidates (Jeremy Corbyn MP was a last minute addition after his late announcement) speaking on a panel at the Fabian Society summer conference.
They started out being asked for the six words that could encapsulate their vision for Britain. Your author has tried her best to take these down word for word (not all of them stuck to six):
Andy Burnham said “A Labour Government will help everyone get on”.
Yvette Cooper said “Jobs, Growth, Fairer county for all”
Mary Creagh said “Power, wealth and opportunity in the hands of the many”
Liz Kendall said “Power, wealth and opportunity for all”.
Jeremy Corbyn said “Housing, world peace, equality and human rights”.........
Jeremy Corbyn and Andy Burnham were both furthest to the left when it came to defending the comprehensive system. Mary Creagh and Liz Kendall chose instead to focus on the effects of education – with Kendall describing it as the key to tackling inequality and Creagh quoting Einstein while attacking Michael Gove.
The related issue of tuition fees also divided the candidates, with Corbyn offering to abolish them and both Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper proposing to move to a system of a graduate tax. Liz Kendall said that she would not abolish fees, putting her spending emphasis instead on the early years.....
Liz Kendall drew gasps from the crowd when she said that while Socialism isn’t dead, it must fundamentally reform itself and that Labour must care as much about wealth creation as wealth redistribution (as it is that wealth that pays for public services). She also found a possibly unlikely ally in Jeremy Corbyn when she expanded the point to say that we must not confuse Socialism with Statism and we should redistribute power as much – if not more so – than money."
When the pit closures were being proposed the MP for Newark Richard Alexander went to the PM and said he could not support her in Parliament over the issue because of the impact on his constituents. She agreed and ordered the whips not to push him over the issue. He voted against pit closures on every occasion.
Thatcher recognised the need for MPs to follow their consciences in such matters. Cameron - and you - apparently do not.
http://labourlist.org/2015/06/deputy-leadership-contest-whos-backing-whom-and-who-did-endorses-vote-to-be-leader-in-2010/
Caroline Flint in the lead with 24
http://labourlist.org/2015/06/the-state-were-in/
"The leadership and deputy leadership campaigns still have a long way to run. The candidates are finding their feet, and their voice. They have to do at least two different things at the same time to avoid the costly hiatus of opposition that occurred in 2010: speak to both the Labour party electorate and the country as a whole.
Obviously some big changes are needed. That same loyalist, the then more youthful Mr Campbell of 20 years ago, warned in his Spectator column about the consequences for Labour if it did not get its act together in opposition ahead of the next big electoral test:
“The Labour Party…may look suspiciously like the one that lost the last election, committed to fairness, justice and equality and unable to convince the public that it can deliver any of the above.”
I doubt if the whip will be applied to Tory backbenchers.
A loser, obviously going for the Miss Congeniality award.
Just back for a bit!
As far as David Milliband is concerned, no, no, no! The more talented brother led Labour to a poor result so why chose an inferior product now?
As far as the other candidates are concerned, I weep. No point sugar-coating it, the cupboard is well and truly bare. Ed Milliband is a giant compared to these guys and gals.
A strong Labour party is not just good for the poor, deprived and under-privileged in our society but it is a also good for the country at large - at the moment we are a long-way from that. Events may play a huge part but the path back to political power looks extremely difficult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1ZOWwW2agQ
As I said before my hope is that this rips the Tory party apart and they then have to rebuild from scratch with Cameron and his Europhile support excised. I doubt it will happen but it is a nice dream.