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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Henry G Manson’s view remains: Yvette Cooper is the value

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  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    The comments are not interesting at all because most are from outside Labour (and one or two without sanity). It is like trying to get a handle on Conservative blogs infested with Ukip ultras.
    I would have thought that an article trying to understand why swing voters didn't back Labour might be interested in the views of swing voters?
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    Plato said:

    OT After watching the first episode, I honestly couldn't tell if this was a spoof or not - it's really local news in Mississippi, I checked. If you like docu progs about real businesses - this is surreal. http://www.adweek.com/tvspy/wabg-and-wxvt-to-appear-in-reality-show-breaking-greenville/133227

    Breaking Greenville may do for local news what The Office did for 9-5 life in the cubicle. But unlike the classic NBC comedy, TruTV’s Breaking Greenville is a real documentary about actual local news reporters doing things that would probably make Edward R. Morrow scream into the nearest throw pillow.
    It's on TruTV via FreeSat and FreeView.
    It cannot possibly be as absurd as Kay Burley on Sky News.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Kenny MacAskill to retire in Edinburgh East

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/former-justice-secretary-macaskill-to-stand-down-as-msp-at-2016-holyrood-election.3790

    7th SNP MSP to announce retirement so far
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    I'm mystified as to why many on this site assume that Sajid Javid will be (a. elected as Conservative leader and (b. elected PM. We've yet to really establish, whether he is that much of a competent Secretary of State for Business, at the very least.

    <\blockquote>

    I don't see why you'd be mystified - Chuka Umunna was a front runner for this Labour campaign and has nothing meaningful to show he is competent as a politician either, other thank his slickness - that's why I was disappointed he pulled out, I wanted to see if there was more to him than it appeared. He was supposed to have a 'compelling backstory' which I think is a euphemism, and Javid has that the same or even more - they must have mentioned the whole 'dad arrived with only a pound in his pocket, worked his way up to etc etc' thing a lot for me to have heard and remembered it.

    Add to that he has had some small visibility as a cabinet minister already, so some small name recognition, then as a 'newcomer' candidate whixh might be wanted when Cameron goes rather than the older guard, and it makes some sense.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    DavidL said:

    Not sure Robert.

    The complete unreality of all the negotiations with Greece since 2010 has always been that it was ever going to be able to pay its way out of this without massive debt forgiveness. What was done left them in a position that made the current crisis absolutely inevitable. While interest rate cuts and "holidays" are some help Greece needs a major default.

    It would have had that major default in 2010 but for the Euro membership which forced people to pretend it was something else somehow compatible with Euro membership. This made the scale too small.

    The VAT issue is key because the Greeks simply don't pay income taxes and seems to have no interest in bringing administration into place to make sure that they do. The government needs a more reliable source of revenue to meet its obligations.

    Where I do disagree with AEP is that there is a viable alternative to austerity for a government which is spending more than it can ingather and has run out of credit. The idea that governments have a right to run deficits without a viable plan for repayment is pernicious and the source of so many of our problems, not just in Greece.

    I think you are underestimating the effective haircut that the various measures amount to. The Germans currently pay around 1.5% of GDP on government interest. For us, it's around 3% (down from a long-run average of just north of 3.5%). For the Greeks, it's 6.5%.

    The interest holidays effectively pushed that down to around 1.5% for the 10 years. Combined with the reductions in interest rates, it would be below (just) 1%. If you want to consider it relative to a 6.5% average interest rate, then over a decade that would be equivalent to 55% of GDP. If you consider it against the UK's bill it's still about a 30% reduction.

    Furthermore, by largely eliminating principle repayments (excepting the IMF and recurring T-Bills), you largely eliminate the need for the Greek government to roll over debt. The cash drag on the Greek government would be negligable for a decade. If inflation were 1.5% over that period, and GDP growth 1.5% (not impossible following reforms: see Spain for example), then you would see debt-to-GDP without a single Euro of repayment fall by almost 60%.

    It's a terrific deal, and it avoids the destruction of the Greek banks or capital controls or rampant inflation.

    However: as I've said before, these deals come with strings. The Greeks cannot expect the Poles to work until 70 to pay for them to retire at 55. These strings are the same kinds of strings the IMF requires all the time.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. 1000, do you think the Greeks will default/exit the eurozone?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Oh, she's Walter Kronkite compared to this.

    I watch A LOT of pulp US TV like this and I had to dig about to find the real TV stations and the advertising link to prove to me that it wasn't some massive piss-take. It's that weird and funny.

    I hated The Office UK with a passion, this show on the other hand has a rather attractive small town charm.

    Plato said:

    OT After watching the first episode, I honestly couldn't tell if this was a spoof or not - it's really local news in Mississippi, I checked. If you like docu progs about real businesses - this is surreal. http://www.adweek.com/tvspy/wabg-and-wxvt-to-appear-in-reality-show-breaking-greenville/133227

    Breaking Greenville may do for local news what The Office did for 9-5 life in the cubicle. But unlike the classic NBC comedy, TruTV’s Breaking Greenville is a real documentary about actual local news reporters doing things that would probably make Edward R. Morrow scream into the nearest throw pillow.
    It's on TruTV via FreeSat and FreeView.
    It cannot possibly be as absurd as Kay Burley on Sky News.


  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    Henry and I often disagree about Labour matters (cf. his prediction that Ed would be forced out within a year) but I think this is spot on, for all the reasons that Henry says. Balls isn't going to be a problem in 2020 - he'll have had 5 years doing something different (he's not going to stand for Parliament again) and people having a go at Yvette on the basis of "your husband said X 12 years ago" are just going to look silly. Labour people do think the NHS is a plus for Andy (Tories say "Stafford!" but we're not convinced) but we've just had an election where the central plank was "vote NHS" and it didn't deliver a win. If the choice is unclear after the hustings, many members will go for Yvette as the candidate with most gravitas and experience.

    The left is going to be preoccupied trying to get Jeremy onto the ballot and then campaigning for him and has no clear preference between Yvette and Andy; the unions also don't seem to have a strong view.

    Kendall is still in with a shot but needs to break through at the hustings, which may well be decisive. Henry's odds look right to me.
  • The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU. Further its clear we do not wish to be part of ever closer union and will not be.

    This is patent nonsense.
    (1) The preamble to the Treaty on European Union states that the members states have "resolved to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe". The preamble to the Charter of Fundamental Rights states that the "peoples of Europe, in creating an ever closer union among them..." It may well be the case that the people of this country dislike these commitments, but we are part of them, and there is nothing to suggest they will be amended in respect of the United Kingdom any time soon, since an IGC would have to be called to agree a new treaty, which would then have to be ratified by all member states in accordance with their constitutional requirements (see article 48(1)-(5) TEU).
    (2) The statement that the "ECHR has nothing to do with the EU" is tenuous and misleading. The EU is obliged to ratify the ECHR. The Convention Rights form general principles of EU law. The European Union's Charter of Fundamental Rights, which has the same status as the Treaties, must be interpreted in accordance with the jurisprudence of the Strasbourg Court (see article 6 TEU, article 52(3) of the Charter, and Protocol 8 to the Treaties).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    Mr. 1000, do you think the Greeks will default/exit the eurozone?

    I veer between the two on an almost weekly basis :-)

    Personally, I am quite close to the German negotiating team, and they are pretty sure there is a deal in place that will stick.

    However: Tsipiras is a cocky bastard. He's the guy who, just when you think you're about to sign on the dotted line, asks for more thing.

    And I think that Merkel and co. are sick of him doing this. If both sides thinks the other will blink, then a Grexident is quite likely.

    I'd say 30-40% chance of Greece departing the Euro in an uncontrolled manner.

    (Of course, the Greeks should have left the Euro years ago, and should have left with the support of the IMF. However, they've managed to upset the IMF to the extent they were described as the worst country the institution has dealt with in its 60 year history.)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. 1000, cheers. That sounds like you think if Greece goes, it'll be in an uncontrolled manner rather than an orderly one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Plato said:

    Oh, she's Walter Kronkite compared to this.



    I hated The Office UK with a passion, this show on the other hand has a rather attractive small town charm.

    Plato said:

    OT After watching the first episode, I honestly couldn't tell if this was a spoof or not - it's really local news in Mississippi, I checked. If you like docu progs about real businesses - this is surreal. http://www.adweek.com/tvspy/wabg-and-wxvt-to-appear-in-reality-show-breaking-greenville/133227

    Breaking Greenville may do for local news what The Office did for 9-5 life in the cubicle. But unlike the classic NBC comedy, TruTV’s Breaking Greenville is a real documentary about actual local news reporters doing things that would probably make Edward R. Morrow scream into the nearest throw pillow.
    It's on TruTV via FreeSat and FreeView.
    It cannot possibly be as absurd as Kay Burley on Sky News.

    i never got past anneoisode of the office. just so irritating.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    As an aside, I have the new 12 inch Macbook Retina from Apple. The touchpad is extraordinary: it feels like it clicks, but it is totally faked.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    Mr. 1000, cheers. That sounds like you think if Greece goes, it'll be in an uncontrolled manner rather than an orderly one.

    They had their chance in January to leave the Euro with IMF support, but they've blown through all their goodwill in no time at all.

    If I'd been Tsipiras I'd have kissed IMF ass and told the EU to f*ck off.

    But instead he's told the IMF to f*ck off, while acting schizophrenic (helpful one minute, petulant the next) with the EU.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    edited June 2015
    Mr Herdson, I’m much obliged. I suspect that the two Labour Prime Ministers airbrushed from Party history were for good reason. I’m by no means sure tht Ramsay Macdonald “had no alternative” in 1931. Returning to, and adhering to, the Gold Standard seems in the lioght of history to have been a mistake, and “letting in the Tories” was, and (see the LibDems 2010-15) to be a cardinal sin.
    Blair of course will be forever damned by the Iraq War, in spite of many achievements during his time in office.

    I’m sure those far more informed economically than I will know whether Ramsay Mac was economically right in 1931!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    TBH, I feel it's a BBC Style thing. Whenever I see a drama show or comedy, it's all got the same feel to it. The dramas are overacted, verging on melodrama at times. The characters *talk* their scripts [often with odd pauses for Thespian Effect] rather than appear to be naturally interacting, the sound production is quite loud/sharp, the lighting greyish and cold. The comedy is too self-conscious and smart-arsey.

    I can spot it a mile off when I trip over a BBC show airing on US networks. ITV in general is much warmer in tone, colour and sound. C4 is harder to place - that veers between cleverdicking/overacted, but not so much as the BBC's output.

    Never watched the NBC version of The Office, I hated the UK too much to even try it.
    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    Oh, she's Walter Kronkite compared to this.

    I hated The Office UK with a passion, this show on the other hand has a rather attractive small town charm.

    Plato said:

    OT After watching the first episode, I honestly couldn't tell if this was a spoof or not - it's really local news in Mississippi, I checked. If you like docu progs about real businesses - this is surreal. http://www.adweek.com/tvspy/wabg-and-wxvt-to-appear-in-reality-show-breaking-greenville/133227

    Breaking Greenville may do for local news what The Office did for 9-5 life in the cubicle. But unlike the classic NBC comedy, TruTV’s Breaking Greenville is a real documentary about actual local news reporters doing things that would probably make Edward R. Morrow scream into the nearest throw pillow.
    It's on TruTV via FreeSat and FreeView.
    It cannot possibly be as absurd as Kay Burley on Sky News.
    i never got past anneoisode of the office. just so irritating.


  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    Does your endorsement imply that you're favourable to Kendall too?
  • frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    Jeremy Lefroy fought a tremendous 5-year campaign to protect Stafford Hospital from cuts, including the overnight closure of A and E, maternity provision etc. I'm sure it wasn't easy, the changes were unpopular and difficult to accept as "reforms", but he retained his seat and almost doubled his majority. The Burnham legacy, it seems, has not been forgotten or forgiven.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    rcs1000 said:

    I think you are underestimating the effective haircut that the various measures amount to. The Germans currently pay around 1.5% of GDP on government interest. For us, it's around 3% (down from a long-run average of just north of 3.5%). For the Greeks, it's 6.5%.

    The interest holidays effectively pushed that down to around 1.5% for the 10 years. Combined with the reductions in interest rates, it would be below (just) 1%. If you want to consider it relative to a 6.5% average interest rate, then over a decade that would be equivalent to 55% of GDP. If you consider it against the UK's bill it's still about a 30% reduction.

    Furthermore, by largely eliminating principle repayments (excepting the IMF and recurring T-Bills), you largely eliminate the need for the Greek government to roll over debt. The cash drag on the Greek government would be negligable for a decade. If inflation were 1.5% over that period, and GDP growth 1.5% (not impossible following reforms: see Spain for example), then you would see debt-to-GDP without a single Euro of repayment fall by almost 60%.

    It's a terrific deal, and it avoids the destruction of the Greek banks or capital controls or rampant inflation.

    However: as I've said before, these deals come with strings. The Greeks cannot expect the Poles to work until 70 to pay for them to retire at 55. These strings are the same kinds of strings the IMF requires all the time.

    My problem with all of this is that back in 2010 Greece should have just told the EU to get lost and gone to the IMF for a proper bailout and let the German and French governments bail out their banks after the IMF allowed a default on the debts. Yes Greece would have exited the Euro, but since then with IMF oversight the economy would be in far better shape than it is now and they wouldn't have a radical leftist government in place.

    IMF oversight of the economy back in 2010 in return for a 40% debt cut would have been a simple transaction, return to Drachma, default on Greek law bonds sold to German and French banks, pay back UK law bonds sold to non-EU institutions. Debase the currency, renominate all domestic bonds into Drachma and inflate it away.

    That is how it always goes down and the EU pushing this bullshit bailout onto Greece in the first place was the criminal act. Everyone knows the bailout was to protect German and French banks who had not carried out proper risk analysis of the Greek economy and now ordinary Greek people are jobless or even homeless because of it. Beyond the debt and statistics, that is the most worrying part, the massive rise in joblessness and homelessness in the country. The EU/ECB/IMF seem to be willing to let literally millions suffer so they don't have to admit the original bailout was completely flawed and the EMU is a completely and utterly flawed idea.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Plato said:



    Never watched the NBC version of The Office, I hated the UK too much to even try it.

    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    Oh, she's Walter Kronkite compared to this.

    I hated The Office UK with a passion, this show on the other hand has a rather attractive small town charm.

    Plato said:

    OT After watching the first episode, I honestly couldn't tell if this was a spoof or not - it's really local news in Mississippi, I checked. If you like docu progs about real businesses - this is surreal. http://www.adweek.com/tvspy/wabg-and-wxvt-to-appear-in-reality-show-breaking-greenville/133227

    Breaking Greenville may do for local news what The Office did for 9-5 life in the cubicle. But unlike the classic NBC comedy, TruTV’s Breaking Greenville is a real documentary about actual local news reporters doing things that would probably make Edward R. Morrow scream into the nearest throw pillow.
    It's on TruTV via FreeSat and FreeView.
    It cannot possibly be as absurd as Kay Burley on Sky News.
    i never got past anneoisode of the office. just so irritating.


    Same here - though I did watch Parks and Recreation, which was meant to be the same sort of style, and after a rocky first season (after which they retooled the main character's personality a bit) it was actually a very charming and funny show.

    US TV is waaaaaay better than most British TV, sadly.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    Danish update for punters: 4 polls today. Two show a 1-seat centre-right lead. One shows a 1-seat centre-left lead, and the last a 3-seat centre-left lead. Thorning momentum stopped, perhaps? - but the news coverage suggests she still looks as though she should be a narrow favourite.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    MaxPB said:

    My problem with all of this is that back in 2010 Greece should have just told the EU to get lost and gone to the IMF for a proper bailout and let the German and French governments bail out their banks after the IMF allowed a default on the debts. Yes Greece would have exited the Euro, but since then with IMF oversight the economy would be in far better shape than it is now and they wouldn't have a radical leftist government in place.

    IMF oversight of the economy back in 2010 in return for a 40% debt cut would have been a simple transaction, return to Drachma, default on Greek law bonds sold to German and French banks, pay back UK law bonds sold to non-EU institutions. Debase the currency, renominate all domestic bonds into Drachma and inflate it away.

    That is how it always goes down and the EU pushing this bullshit bailout onto Greece in the first place was the criminal act. Everyone knows the bailout was to protect German and French banks who had not carried out proper risk analysis of the Greek economy and now ordinary Greek people are jobless or even homeless because of it. Beyond the debt and statistics, that is the most worrying part, the massive rise in joblessness and homelessness in the country. The EU/ECB/IMF seem to be willing to let literally millions suffer so they don't have to admit the original bailout was completely flawed and the EMU is a completely and utterly flawed idea.

    "The EU/ECB/IMF seem to be willing to let literally millions suffer so they don't have to admit the original bailout was completely flawed and the EMU is a completely and utterly flawed idea. "

    The concept of letting others suffer so someone doesn't have to admit a mistake is sadly rather common.

    The EU, however, have taken it to a whole other level.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato most of my Director friends have moved to the states..not surprised really... THEY GET 10 TIMES THE SALARY...AS I DO..
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    It really is a yawning gulf between them. I watch maybe 5% of UK made TV - all the rest is US with the odd smattering of great stuff like Spiral et al from France/Scandanavia.

    I don't think I've seen a single German show - ever. Is their TV that terrible?
    kle4 said:

    Plato said:



    Never watched the NBC version of The Office, I hated the UK too much to even try it.

    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    Oh, she's Walter Kronkite compared to this.

    I hated The Office UK with a passion, this show on the other hand has a rather attractive small town charm.

    Plato said:

    OT After watching the first episode, I honestly couldn't tell if this was a spoof or not - it's really local news in Mississippi, I checked. If you like docu progs about real businesses - this is surreal. http://www.adweek.com/tvspy/wabg-and-wxvt-to-appear-in-reality-show-breaking-greenville/133227

    Breaking Greenville may do for local news what The Office did for 9-5 life in the cubicle. But unlike the classic NBC comedy, TruTV’s Breaking Greenville is a real documentary about actual local news reporters doing things that would probably make Edward R. Morrow scream into the nearest throw pillow.
    It's on TruTV via FreeSat and FreeView.
    It cannot possibly be as absurd as Kay Burley on Sky News.
    i never got past anneoisode of the office. just so irritating.
    Same here - though I did watch Parks and Recreation, which was meant to be the same sort of style, and after a rocky first season (after which they retooled the main character's personality a bit) it was actually a very charming and funny show.

    US TV is waaaaaay better than most British TV, sadly.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. 1000, cheers. That sounds like you think if Greece goes, it'll be in an uncontrolled manner rather than an orderly one.

    They had their chance in January to leave the Euro with IMF support, but they've blown through all their goodwill in no time at all.

    If I'd been Tsipiras I'd have kissed IMF ass and told the EU to f*ck off.

    But instead he's told the IMF to f*ck off, while acting schizophrenic (helpful one minute, petulant the next) with the EU.
    I think the problem is that the IMF have politicised this too much as well, they should never have been part of the original bailout in tandem with other organisations, it has brought too many agendas into it. When the IMF imposes terms, it is generally always for the good of the country at the cost of some short or medium term pain in terms of economic contraction or job losses. With the Greek bailout the IMF got into bed with the EU and ECB which has brought in another agenda of protecting the Euro and it has completely clouded their judgement. What is good for Greece is absolutely not good for the Euro and what is good for the Euro is definitely not good for Greece. I can understand some of the frustration the Greeks have with the IMF, the bailout has been a completely and utter disaster from start to finish, there has been no real debt relief, even though the current deal on offer will cut repayments by 40-50%, nominal debt will still be well above acceptable standards and for SYRIZA that doesn't count as a victory they can sell to the Greek people. This is basically why any deal which doesn't cut the headline rate of indebtedness is always going to be a very hard sell.

    As you might be able to tell, I'm very jaded when it comes to Grexit, I, rather like yourself, think that the Greeks should have gone for it in January with IMF support and told the EU/ECB to bugger off and dealt with the fallout later. What was Germany going to do, roll tanks down through Austria and the rest of Eastern Europe and park up in Greece demanding their money back, or drop paratroopers into Athens and hold the government to ransom?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The productivity from US studios seems massive compared to here - we get a handful of shows in a season from the BBC - and 22-24 from NBC or CBS or CW or ABC.

    If you're interested - the History of Pinewood Studios is on BBC2 tonight 9pm UK time.

    Plato most of my Director friends have moved to the states..not surprised really... THEY GET 10 TIMES THE SALARY...AS I DO..

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Henry and I often disagree about Labour matters (cf. his prediction that Ed would be forced out within a year) but I think this is spot on, for all the reasons that Henry says. Balls isn't going to be a problem in 2020 - he'll have had 5 years doing something different (he's not going to stand for Parliament again) and people having a go at Yvette on the basis of "your husband said X 12 years ago" are just going to look silly. Labour people do think the NHS is a plus for Andy (Tories say "Stafford!" but we're not convinced) but we've just had an election where the central plank was "vote NHS" and it didn't deliver a win. If the choice is unclear after the hustings, many members will go for Yvette as the candidate with most gravitas and experience.

    The left is going to be preoccupied trying to get Jeremy onto the ballot and then campaigning for him and has no clear preference between Yvette and Andy; the unions also don't seem to have a strong view.

    Kendall is still in with a shot but needs to break through at the hustings, which may well be decisive. Henry's odds look right to me.

    I see that the hustings roadshow goes to Nottingham on Sunday 28th.

    If Ed got one thing right it was democratising the leadership election. There does look to be a proper debate developing over the summer.

    Yvette may be able to escape being Mrs Balls, but she cannot so easily escape her own poor performance in government as Chief Secretary to the Treasury at the height of the crash or at Housing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    I think Greece will stay in the Euro. It is popular there, and no one remembers the Drachma fondly.

    Debasing a currency is no route to economic success.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato Thanks for the Pinewood info...we don't have UK TV here
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    MattW said:

    So Ukip buggered up the election and is now going to bugger up the referendum. Can anybody now deny that Cameron is a very lucky general ?

    "How will Lab deal with the LBGTIQXYZ spectrum ?"
    I get the lettuce, bacon and tomato bit but the rest needs some explanation.

    Lesbian Bisexual Gay Transgender Intersex Queer.

    XYZ are the ones I add for those that are about to be invented / identified.

    I missed out Pansexual (interested in any thing that moves).

    I'm sure there are some more, somewhere. Once you decide that categories are immutable and orientation is discovered not developed, you enter an ever descending spiral of fragmentation.


    Hey. You are being oppressive. What about those perhaps overfond of farmyard animals?

    We don't want to leave the Welsh out of this...
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Do you use Hola? It can spoof iPlayer access. www.hola.org.

    Plato Thanks for the Pinewood info...we don't have UK TV here

  • On the subject of BBC programmes. I have a confession. I like Mrs Brown's Boys.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    But that's like promising motherhood and apple pie, tax cuts and spending rises. It's easy to get elected on that platform but impossible to actually deliver it in office.

    I can't see how they can continue to keep kicking this can down the road for much longer. The IMF is supposed to protect countries rather than currencies; dealing with a failed state in the Euro should be the same as in the USA with the Germans bailing out the Greeks whether they like it or not. The Germans need to understand that this is what they signed up for.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    The Euro will be popular until the day they leave. After people will ask why they didn't leave sooner. People are scared of change, loath as I am to bring the Scottish referendum into it, but one of the decisive factors of the No vote was currency. I have no doubt that Scotland could go it alone with a new currency, but just like SYRIZA in Greece not wanting to say it, the SNP couldn't say it in Scotland so they had this frankly crazy idea of either using Sterling anyway, or trying to have the BoE as their lender of last resort despite being an independent nation.

    Once they step through the door I very much doubt the Greek people would punish SYRIZA at the ballot box, it would, IMO, be seen as the final F*** You to the EU which will probably be popular. Also don't forget that in terms of support, SYRIZA gets support from the unemployed and people who work in lower paid jobs, not those with savings or pensions funds currently nominated in Euros. The people who need for Greece to stay in the EMU are not natural SYRIZA allies, they voted ND even after all that has happened, so basically f*ck 'em.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Never seen it - that that something to do with QV?

    Out of curiosity - does anyone have a NOW TV subscription? It looks pricey to me and I'm not interested in the overall offer.

    On the subject of BBC programmes. I have a confession. I like Mrs Brown's Boys.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    One of the most noticeable features of the 2 successful leaderships in recent times is that they have been teams. Blair/Brown was phenomenally successful until Brown's madness took its toll and Cameron/Osborne is still going strong.

    In contrast failed leaders such as Hague, Brown and Miliband have not been in obvious teams. The clear impression in the last Parliament was that Miliband would rather have had anyone other than Balls and when he was left with no choice he rarely seemed to even speak to him, let alone work together.

    It seems to me this campaign for leader and deputy leader at the same time should have been a chance of joint tickets developing of people who were confident that they could work together. It is win win for both as it allows each candidate to reach into parts of the party which they would otherwise struggle to meet.

    If this is happening at all I am not aware of it. I would be interested if any Labour insiders had picked up any hint of it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    @kle4 I see the Supergirl pilot has escaped into the wild 6 months early. I'll see what I think of that later today. I never liked Clark's sister in Smallville, so hoping this casting is better.

    It's from the same stable as The Flash, Arrow et al - so hoping for a good show with pace.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    The Euro will be popular until the day they leave. After people will ask why they didn't leave sooner. People are scared of change, loath as I am to bring the Scottish referendum into it, but one of the decisive factors of the No vote was currency. I have no doubt that Scotland could go it alone with a new currency, but just like SYRIZA in Greece not wanting to say it, the SNP couldn't say it in Scotland so they had this frankly crazy idea of either using Sterling anyway, or trying to have the BoE as their lender of last resort despite being an independent nation.

    Once they step through the door I very much doubt the Greek people would punish SYRIZA at the ballot box, it would, IMO, be seen as the final F*** You to the EU which will probably be popular. Also don't forget that in terms of support, SYRIZA gets support from the unemployed and people who work in lower paid jobs, not those with savings or pensions funds currently nominated in Euros. The people who need for Greece to stay in the EMU are not natural SYRIZA allies, they voted ND even after all that has happened, so basically f*ck 'em.
    Most Greeks strongly welcomed the change to the euro. Within living memory, they had an unreliable currency - imagine if Britain faced a Black Thursday every year or two. Much of SYRIZA's support is based on fundamentally not changing anything about the pre-programme status quo rather than socialism per se - e.g. repealing the property tax. It's just that they had to elect an extremist nationalist government of the left (and right) to pursue sufficiently heterodox policies that allowed them to extend and pretend otherwise-unsustainable policies.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    I think Greece will stay in the Euro. It is popular there, and no one remembers the Drachma fondly.

    Debasing a currency is no route to economic success.
    And yet Germany used it for the last 15 years to great success. Germany has a chronically undervalued currency which has allowed it to build up a massive current account and trade surplus to the detriment of the rest of Europe (and us). The Deutsche Mark would trade at parity or above with GBP, the Euro currently trades at 1.37. This idea that a nation can't debase its way to success has been thoroughly disproved by German and China over the last 15-20 years.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That's an excellent idea - historically have POTUS elections ever had friends/ideological soulmates on the ticket together? I assumed those were very much marriages of convenience.

    Like John Redwood and Ken Clarke...
    DavidL said:

    One of the most noticeable features of the 2 successful leaderships in recent times is that they have been teams. Blair/Brown was phenomenally successful until Brown's madness took its toll and Cameron/Osborne is still going strong.

    In contrast failed leaders such as Hague, Brown and Miliband have not been in obvious teams. The clear impression in the last Parliament was that Miliband would rather have had anyone other than Balls and when he was left with no choice he rarely seemed to even speak to him, let alone work together.

    It seems to me this campaign for leader and deputy leader at the same time should have been a chance of joint tickets developing of people who were confident that they could work together. It is win win for both as it allows each candidate to reach into parts of the party which they would otherwise struggle to meet.

    If this is happening at all I am not aware of it. I would be interested if any Labour insiders had picked up any hint of it.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Mr. 1000, cheers. That sounds like you think if Greece goes, it'll be in an uncontrolled manner rather than an orderly one.

    I'd agree with that and also with rcs's odds.

    Worth also remembering that Tsipras and Greece are currently popular in Greece. Their negotiating strategy is working and delivering for a lot of Greeks what they want. I suspect that this is no small part of Tsipras' current confidence. He feels that if necessary, he could go back to the Greek people and get an even bigger mandate for concessions - which as long as the show stays on the road, he can.

    The problem is that his strategy is fundamentally conflicted and relies on doing and saying different things to different people at different times, in the hope that none of them will call what is ultimately a bluff somewhere.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    Plato said:

    It really is a yawning gulf between them. I watch maybe 5% of UK made TV - all the rest is US with the odd smattering of great stuff like Spiral et al from France/Scandanavia.

    I don't think I've seen a single German show - ever. Is their TV that terrible?

    When I was in Switzerland I watch German TV a lot, though that's 18 years ago. At that time, their crime thrillers (Derrick, Der Alte, etc.) were first class examples of an old-fashioned style - thoughtful, compassionate cops, atmospheric depictions of seedy milieux (strip clubs, downmarket bars, etc.): our TV series about the WW2 detective (forgotten his name) is in the same tradition. They were really well done but the fast-moving tough-guy action movie stuff that Anglo-Saxon TV mostly prefers was completely absent, and the nuanced depiction of flawed cops typical of Scandi-noir was missing too.

    Generalising, German TV culture is straighter and less sardonic than most British TV, in everything - political debates are lengthy political discussions focusing on policy in which snappy personal attacks would look like annoying distractions. If you imagine the media run by the Dimblebys you get the flavour. I prefer it myself to the way our media archly take the piss out of everything, but who knows whether the media create the climate or just reflect it?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    edited June 2015
    I read that the Labour hustings are visiting my city on 9 June.

    This would be unremarkable, since we didn't elect any Labour MPs and the plan was to stage hustings in places where they had weak support in May. However, we didn't elect any Labour MPs because my city isn't in the United Kingdom.

    http://www.gmb.org.uk/newsroom/gmb-congress-dublin
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Plato said:

    @kle4 I see the Supergirl pilot has escaped into the wild 6 months early. I'll see what I think of that later today. I never liked Clark's sister in Smallville, so hoping this casting is better.

    It's from the same stable as The Flash, Arrow et al - so hoping for a good show with pace.

    Interesting! I hope it lives up to its cohorts. I liked that both have significantly different feels while still making sense as being in the same universe, so it'll be interesting to see the tone of this new one (which is on a different network, as I recall)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Off to enjoy the sunshine shortly, but in anticipation of that not being the case later this year, I see that Fallout 4 and XCOM 2 are to be released this year. I try not to get too hyped up, but it looks to be a good year for videogames then!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    I think Greece will stay in the Euro. It is popular there, and no one remembers the Drachma fondly.

    Debasing a currency is no route to economic success.
    And yet Germany used it for the last 15 years to great success. Germany has a chronically undervalued currency which has allowed it to build up a massive current account and trade surplus to the detriment of the rest of Europe (and us). The Deutsche Mark would trade at parity or above with GBP, the Euro currently trades at 1.37. This idea that a nation can't debase its way to success has been thoroughly disproved by German and China over the last 15-20 years.
    An undervalued currency is not the same as debasing a currency via devaluation and inflation.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Fascinating and very Teutonic!

    I was reminded last night of the old adage that US TV was crap "300 channels and nothing to watch". How far things have moved since then.

    Plato said:

    It really is a yawning gulf between them. I watch maybe 5% of UK made TV - all the rest is US with the odd smattering of great stuff like Spiral et al from France/Scandanavia.

    I don't think I've seen a single German show - ever. Is their TV that terrible?

    When I was in Switzerland I watch German TV a lot, though that's 18 years ago. At that time, their crime thrillers (Derrick, Der Alte, etc.) were first class examples of an old-fashioned style - thoughtful, compassionate cops, atmospheric depictions of seedy milieux (strip clubs, downmarket bars, etc.): our TV series about the WW2 detective (forgotten his name) is in the same tradition. They were really well done but the fast-moving tough-guy action movie stuff that Anglo-Saxon TV mostly prefers was completely absent, and the nuanced depiction of flawed cops typical of Scandi-noir was missing too.

    Generalising, German TV culture is straighter and less sardonic than most British TV, in everything - political debates are lengthy political discussions focusing on policy in which snappy personal attacks would look like annoying distractions. If you imagine the media run by the Dimblebys you get the flavour. I prefer it myself to the way our media archly take the piss out of everything, but who knows whether the media create the climate or just reflect it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Corbyn is actually the leftwing candidate in this race, on issues like welfare Cooper seems to be left of Burnham in her statements. To win Cooper needs to make more impact with MPs and in the polls, presently she trails Burnham with Labour voters and in Scotland, she also trails both Burnham and Kendall with Tory, LD and UKIP voters. In any case Labour rules mean that if Burnham wins his deputy will be female
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    I think Greece will stay in the Euro. It is popular there, and no one remembers the Drachma fondly.

    Debasing a currency is no route to economic success.
    And yet Germany used it for the last 15 years to great success. Germany has a chronically undervalued currency which has allowed it to build up a massive current account and trade surplus to the detriment of the rest of Europe (and us). The Deutsche Mark would trade at parity or above with GBP, the Euro currently trades at 1.37. This idea that a nation can't debase its way to success has been thoroughly disproved by German and China over the last 15-20 years.
    An undervalued currency is not the same as debasing a currency via devaluation and inflation.
    It's a controlled debasement. Either through internal austerity (Germany) or through a currency peg (China). It is still a debasement or devaluation, whatever you want to call it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    Me too - and DareDevil. It's all well made, I find Arrow a bit too grim, but that's what Starling City was.

    I hear Agent Carter is canned - great shame, that had lovely visuals and casting, but the plot wrapped itself up within a single run.
    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    @kle4 I see the Supergirl pilot has escaped into the wild 6 months early. I'll see what I think of that later today. I never liked Clark's sister in Smallville, so hoping this casting is better.

    It's from the same stable as The Flash, Arrow et al - so hoping for a good show with pace.

    Interesting! I hope it lives up to its cohorts. I liked that both have significantly different feels while still making sense as being in the same universe, so it'll be interesting to see the tone of this new one (which is on a different network, as I recall)
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited June 2015
    @NickPalmer

    Der Alte is still on air!

    We get lots of German stuff here on TV. Usually as fillers on the summer schedule (especially in the afternoon when regular shows takes a break between June and September).
    Yes, it is bad. Almost as bad as French TV but in a different way. German series are often so generic that you could locate them everywhere in the world. Sometimes they are located somewhere in the World...Murders in Istanbul series...Commissario Brunetti set in Venice...etch.
    On the other hand French shows are usually very French...sometimes stuck on 1999 (especially the crime series of public channels whose also have an obsession with specials about Napoleon or Madame de Pompadour)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    Plato said:

    It really is a yawning gulf between them. I watch maybe 5% of UK made TV - all the rest is US with the odd smattering of great stuff like Spiral et al from France/Scandanavia.

    I don't think I've seen a single German show - ever. Is their TV that terrible?

    When I was in Switzerland I watch German TV a lot, though that's 18 years ago. At that time, their crime thrillers (Derrick, Der Alte, etc.) were first class examples of an old-fashioned style - thoughtful, compassionate cops, atmospheric depictions of seedy milieux (strip clubs, downmarket bars, etc.): our TV series about the WW2 detective (forgotten his name) is in the same tradition. They were really well done but the fast-moving tough-guy action movie stuff that Anglo-Saxon TV mostly prefers was completely absent, and the nuanced depiction of flawed cops typical of Scandi-noir was missing too.

    Generalising, German TV culture is straighter and less sardonic than most British TV, in everything - political debates are lengthy political discussions focusing on policy in which snappy personal attacks would look like annoying distractions. If you imagine the media run by the Dimblebys you get the flavour. I prefer it myself to the way our media archly take the piss out of everything, but who knows whether the media create the climate or just reflect it?
    The link that a few people made to the Daily Show equivalent taking the piss out of the Brits yesterday did not seem to fall within that generality.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Plato Clinton Gore Bush Cheney
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    This is surreal. Recall the fuss over Jonathon Ross' pay cheque?! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3113274/BBC-offered-Hammond-9MILLION-present-two-series-Gear-without-Clarkson.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
    Richard Hammond and James May are set to become the highest paid stars at the BBC, after the corporation offered them a massive combined wage of £9.2million for two more series of Top Gear.

    The £4.6million pay-packet that each would receive for the shows is double the amount previously thought.

    The Top Gear trio - including Jeremy Clarkson - are together again on stage as part of a show tour, which has been renamed Clarkson, Hammond and May Live.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    Only halfwits believe any of that tripe, and that is being generous to you.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
    Are you proud of this Malcolm?

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    edited June 2015

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
    Are you proud of this Malcolm?

    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    TGOHF said:
    I don't like cybernats, but that is largely tosh. If Kennedy was so far gone that he couldn't stay even apparently sober for major TV appearances he was too far gone to fulfill the role of an MP and a great deal of blame attaches to his party and friends for letting him stand. It was legitimate for his opponents to point out that he was a drunk.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    I think Greece will stay in the Euro. It is popular there, and no one remembers the Drachma fondly.

    Debasing a currency is no route to economic success.
    And yet Germany used it for the last 15 years to great success. Germany has a chronically undervalued currency which has allowed it to build up a massive current account and trade surplus to the detriment of the rest of Europe (and us). The Deutsche Mark would trade at parity or above with GBP, the Euro currently trades at 1.37. This idea that a nation can't debase its way to success has been thoroughly disproved by German and China over the last 15-20 years.
    An undervalued currency is not the same as debasing a currency via devaluation and inflation.
    It's a controlled debasement. Either through internal austerity (Germany) or through a currency peg (China). It is still a debasement or devaluation, whatever you want to call it.
    Internal austerity and living within ones means is not the same as defaulting on debt or debasing the currency with inflation.

    Postwar German economic success is built on a sound money policy, there is no shortcut to that.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Quiet, Greece are relying on the Bank of Mum & Dad. Again. Until they sort out their finances - they're going to keep wanting to move back in or borrow another tenner.

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    I think Greece will stay in the Euro. It is popular there, and no one remembers the Drachma fondly.

    Debasing a currency is no route to economic success.
    And yet Germany used it for the last 15 years to great success. Germany has a chronically undervalued currency which has allowed it to build up a massive current account and trade surplus to the detriment of the rest of Europe (and us). The Deutsche Mark would trade at parity or above with GBP, the Euro currently trades at 1.37. This idea that a nation can't debase its way to success has been thoroughly disproved by German and China over the last 15-20 years.
    An undervalued currency is not the same as debasing a currency via devaluation and inflation.
    It's a controlled debasement. Either through internal austerity (Germany) or through a currency peg (China). It is still a debasement or devaluation, whatever you want to call it.
    Internal austerity and living within ones means is not the same as defaulting on debt or debasing the currency with inflation.

    Postwar German economic success is built on a sound money policy, there is no shortcut to that.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    I think Greece will stay in the Euro. It is popular there, and no one remembers the Drachma fondly.

    Debasing a currency is no route to economic success.
    And yet Germany used it for the last 15 years to great success. Germany has a chronically undervalued currency which has allowed it to build up a massive current account and trade surplus to the detriment of the rest of Europe (and us). The Deutsche Mark would trade at parity or above with GBP, the Euro currently trades at 1.37. This idea that a nation can't debase its way to success has been thoroughly disproved by German and China over the last 15-20 years.
    An undervalued currency is not the same as debasing a currency via devaluation and inflation.
    It's a controlled debasement. Either through internal austerity (Germany) or through a currency peg (China). It is still a debasement or devaluation, whatever you want to call it.
    Internal austerity and living within ones means is not the same as defaulting on debt or debasing the currency with inflation.

    Postwar German economic success is built on a sound money policy, there is no shortcut to that.
    Spoken like a true Conservative.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    Ishmael_X said:

    TGOHF said:
    I don't like cybernats, but that is largely tosh. If Kennedy was so far gone that he couldn't stay even apparently sober for major TV appearances he was too far gone to fulfill the role of an MP and a great deal of blame attaches to his party and friends for letting him stand. It was legitimate for his opponents to point out that he was a drunk.
    Didn’t his father die or his brother have a serious car crash (or both) just before the final TV appearance?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited June 2015
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
    Are you proud of this Malcolm?

    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.
    Which bits specifically are wrong in the Mail story which you describe as " Complete and utter rubbish"?


  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    Plato said:

    This is surreal. Recall the fuss over Jonathon Ross' pay cheque?! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3113274/BBC-offered-Hammond-9MILLION-present-two-series-Gear-without-Clarkson.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

    Richard Hammond and James May are set to become the highest paid stars at the BBC, after the corporation offered them a massive combined wage of £9.2million for two more series of Top Gear.

    The £4.6million pay-packet that each would receive for the shows is double the amount previously thought.

    The Top Gear trio - including Jeremy Clarkson - are together again on stage as part of a show tour, which has been renamed Clarkson, Hammond and May Live.
    Not much. Assuming the BBC do not help them avoid paying taxes, like they used to do, then its only about a million a year.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Murray into fifth set with Djokavic in Paris
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
    Are you proud of this Malcolm?

    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.
    To true @Malcolmg, CK was an un-rehabilitated alcoholic who was allowed to hold
    office despite his illness. Because he was a L/Dem MP he was left alone. If he had been a UKIP MP the heavens would have fallen in on him long ago, and I expect, hounded out of politics altogether.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited June 2015
    I am no fan of the SNP but have to agree with Malcolm G on this, Kennedy's death was because of his alcoholism and his alcoholism alone, he was a tough and seasoned politician and could handle the 'rough and tumble' of the campaign and if he could not he should not have been standing again, it was his drinking which killed him as the coroner's report confirmed, not the SNP and it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise
  • Ishmael_X said:

    TGOHF said:
    I don't like cybernats, but that is largely tosh. If Kennedy was so far gone that he couldn't stay even apparently sober for major TV appearances he was too far gone to fulfill the role of an MP and a great deal of blame attaches to his party and friends for letting him stand. It was legitimate for his opponents to point out that he was a drunk.
    Sad to almost fully agree with you. Why did his party, friends and family not intervene?
    Plato said:

    Never seen it - that that something to do with QV?

    Out of curiosity - does anyone have a NOW TV subscription? It looks pricey to me and I'm not interested in the overall offer.

    On the subject of BBC programmes. I have a confession. I like Mrs Brown's Boys.

    Mrs Brown's Boys.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00zx8j9
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
    Are you proud of this Malcolm?

    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.
    Which bits specifically are wrong in the Mail story which you describe as " Complete and utter rubbish"?


    For starters: the stuff about the bins is pure speculation, and the "long knives" remark makes no sense at all as a reference to Macmillan (one senses the author of the piece doesn't know why M's notlk was called that in the first place). You mustn't believe everything you read in the Mail.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Charlie had banked a load of brownie points over 30yrs and his illness was disguised/ignored for a very long time.

    TBH, he should never have appeared on QT. I can't think what possessed the BBC to allow him on camera. It was like Kerry Katona on Good Morning Britain when clearly off the reservation.

    I wish he had retired and not contested his seat simply to retain his dignity. No one deserves having their dustin upended all over their garden out of childish spite.

    Some SNPers and far Left of Labour cf what happened to a couple of Tory lady PPCs was appalling. Spray painting Whore and SCUM over someone's car? And polluting acres of groundwater by puncturing an oil tank? It's the same mentality as the ALF digging up corpses.
    MikeK said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
    Are you proud of this Malcolm?

    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.
    To true @Malcolmg, CK was an un-rehabilitated alcoholic who was allowed to hold
    office despite his illness. Because he was a L/Dem MP he was left alone. If he had been a UKIP MP the heavens would have fallen in on him long ago, and I expect, hounded out of politics altogether.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    The Euro will be popular until the day they leave. After people will ask why they didn't leave sooner. People are scared of change, loath as I am to bring the Scottish referendum into it, but one of the decisive factors of the No vote was currency. I have no doubt that Scotland could go it alone with a new currency, but just like SYRIZA in Greece not wanting to say it, the SNP couldn't say it in Scotland so they had this frankly crazy idea of either using Sterling anyway, or trying to have the BoE as their lender of last resort despite being an independent nation.

    Once they step through the door I very much doubt the Greek people would punish SYRIZA at the ballot box, it would, IMO, be seen as the final F*** You to the EU which will probably be popular. Also don't forget that in terms of support, SYRIZA gets support from the unemployed and people who work in lower paid jobs, not those with savings or pensions funds currently nominated in Euros. The people who need for Greece to stay in the EMU are not natural SYRIZA allies, they voted ND even after all that has happened, so basically f*ck 'em.
    The Greeks just want an easy ride with someone else's money, and to continue in their usual corrupt tax evading way. You are a fool if you believe otherwise. Only yesterday someone was telling me of the tax evading back hander paying way that property deals were done. Junk currency, stonking inflation beckons.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,168
    edited June 2015
    malcolmg said:


    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.

    It's funny, I seem to remember quite recently a 'senior' Libdem on here saying what a drunken disaster Kennedy had been for the Libdems, and how negatively they felt towards him.

    I suppose we are all Charlie now.

    As Daisley suggests, the article had decided on its agenda irrespective of the facts.

    Stephen Daisley ‏@JournoStephen 45 mins45 minutes ago
    This reads like an article originally commissioned in expectation of a different post-mortem result http://tinyurl.com/q9ellle




  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,401
    Ishmael_X said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
    Are you proud of this Malcolm?

    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.
    Which bits specifically are wrong in the Mail story which you describe as " Complete and utter rubbish"?


    For starters: the stuff about the bins is pure speculation, and the "long knives" remark makes no sense at all as a reference to Macmillan (one senses the author of the piece doesn't know why M's notlk was called that in the first place). You mustn't believe everything you read in the Mail.
    "And the bins? Readers might wonder why “cybernats” would bother going through Charles Kennedy’s rubbish on election day, when it was far too late to glean any information which could have damaged his chances.

    But there IS a group in society which is well-known for raking through politician’s bins for juicy gossip and dirt that might sell a few papers whether the subject was an MP or not, and whether they were alive or dead.

    The words “secret lover” suggest that Charles Kennedy wanted his private life kept private. But the Mail, along with several other papers, just couldn’t resist reporting his death with a side-order of salacious tittle-tattle.

    We have no reason to believe that such information was gleaned from rifling through his bins, of course. Indeed, we don’t know that ANYONE went through his bins. They may have been disturbed by foxes, or simply blown over in the very windy weather Scotland’s been experiencing recently."
    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-scum-of-the-earth/
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    No Mr liamt, its you and your fatuous clauses that are a nonsense. The echr is quite separate from the EU.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    Congrats to the happy couple. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3113102/I-m-marrying-secret-gay-love-says-Tory-minister-29-year-relationship-boss-polling-company.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
    A Tory minister last night announced he is marrying his male partner after a secret 29-year relationship.

    Nick Gibb revealed his romance with Michael Simmonds, the chief executive of polling organisation Populus.

    They plan to marry in November.

    The schools minister, 54, who came out to his family last week, praised David Cameron's 'marvellous service' to the country by championing gay marriage.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    You know what would be really nice and refreshing? A SNPer on here saying "If this is true, it's appalling. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and I wouldn't want them in my Party."

    Instead we get skiploads of denials and rubbishing. Some SNPers have totally lost the plot when it comes to compassion and self-awareness.

    The same goes for the CiF crowd who'd do the same for Labour.
    Carnyx said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
    Are you proud of this Malcolm?

    snip

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.
    Which bits specifically are wrong in the Mail story which you describe as " Complete and utter rubbish"?


    For starters: the stuff about the bins is pure speculation, and the "long knives" remark makes no sense at all as a reference to Macmillan (one senses the author of the piece doesn't know why M's notlk was called that in the first place). You mustn't believe everything you read in the Mail.
    "And the bins? Readers might wonder why “cybernats” would bother going through Charles Kennedy’s rubbish on election day, when it was far too late to glean any information which could have damaged his chances.

    But there IS a group in society which is well-known for raking through politician’s bins for juicy gossip and dirt that might sell a few papers whether the subject was an MP or not, and whether they were alive or dead.

    The words “secret lover” suggest that Charles Kennedy wanted his private life kept private. But the Mail, along with several other papers, just couldn’t resist reporting his death with a side-order of salacious tittle-tattle.

    We have no reason to believe that such information was gleaned from rifling through his bins, of course. Indeed, we don’t know that ANYONE went through his bins. They may have been disturbed by foxes, or simply blown over in the very windy weather Scotland’s been experiencing recently."
    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-scum-of-the-earth/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    No Mr liamt, its you and your fatuous clauses that are a nonsense. The echr is quite separate from the EU.

    He's correct.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    edited June 2015
    How can anyone take the Mail article seriously after this:

    "This unedifying act of vandalism — carried out, O’Neill assumes, by someone loyal to Kennedy’s political opponent "

    Wouldn't exactly stand up in court, would it. Precisely the same sort of tosh was written about the NOTW deleting text messages.
  • frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    At this time of international political,economic and religious troubles Britain is truly blessed to have, at the same time, two political parties with infallible leaders and honest and irreproachable supporters.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    It is not actually certain at all that Andy is going to be the more left-wing candidate. So far, Yvette's statements have actually been arguably to the Left of Andy's - and despite what the media might think, we're not stupid enough to vote for a candidate just because Len McCluskey tells us to.

    That said, one thing that might allow Andy to keep Left support is he is VERY good at producing the kind of "moral crusade" rhetoric even when he's pushing centrist policies, which is a plus for a lot of Labour members (though personally I kind of feel that kind of rhetoric turns off the public and that it makes the party look a bit like a cult when we start talking about how the Tories are evil baby-eaters). Plus, Andy is a better communicator than Yvette and frankly considerably better than Liz too for my money, and it may be that that is considered the most important qualification after the Miliband experience.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited June 2015
    Noms received so far (they opened on Thursday) for Select Committee Chairs

    Backbench Business Committee: Sarah Champion, Ian Mearns
    Business, Innovation and Skills Committee: Ian Wright
    Culture Media and Sport: Damian Green
    Defence: Richard Benyon, Julian Lewis, Bob Stewart
    Education: Neal Carmichael
    Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee: Neil Parish
    Environmental Audit: Huw Irranca Davies
    Foreign Affairs: John Baron, Crispin Blunt, Nadhim Zahawi
    Health: David Tredinnick, Sarah Wollaston
    Home Affairs: Keith Vaz
    International Development: Albert Owen, Stephen Twigg
    Justice: John Howell, Bob Neil
    Northern Ireland: Laurence Robertson
    Petitions: Helen Jones
    PAC: Helen Goodman, Gisela Stuart
    Science and Technology: Nicola Blackwood
    Standards: Kevin Barron
    Transport: Louise Ellman
    Treasury: Andrew Tyre
    Wales: David Davies
    Work and Pensions: Frank Field, Kate Green

    no nomination received yet for the remaining committees. Deadline is June 10th. Additional candidates are expected for some committees
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    I think Greece will stay in the Euro. It is popular there, and no one remembers the Drachma fondly.

    Debasing a currency is no route to economic success.
    And yet Germany used it for the last 15 years to great success. Germany has a chronically undervalued currency which has allowed it to build up a massive current account and trade surplus to the detriment of the rest of Europe (and us). The Deutsche Mark would trade at parity or above with GBP, the Euro currently trades at 1.37. This idea that a nation can't debase its way to success has been thoroughly disproved by German and China over the last 15-20 years.
    An undervalued currency is not the same as debasing a currency via devaluation and inflation.
    It's a controlled debasement. Either through internal austerity (Germany) or through a currency peg (China). It is still a debasement or devaluation, whatever you want to call it.
    Internal austerity and living within ones means is not the same as defaulting on debt or debasing the currency with inflation.

    Postwar German economic success is built on a sound money policy, there is no shortcut to that.
    GDP per head is now lower in absolute terms than it was in 1999, in Italy. Their economy depended on regular devaluations of the lira to remain competitive. In theory, closing off devaluation as an option should have forced Italy to become more competitive. In practice, it made everyone poorer.

  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Plato said:

    Charlie had banked a load of brownie points over 30yrs and his illness was disguised/ignored for a very long time.

    TBH, he should never have appeared on QT. I can't think what possessed the BBC to allow him on camera. It was like Kerry Katona on Good Morning Britain when clearly off the reservation.

    I wish he had retired and not contested his seat simply to retain his dignity. No one deserves having their dustin upended all over their garden out of childish spite.

    Some SNPers and far Left of Labour cf what happened to a couple of Tory lady PPCs was appalling. Spray painting Whore and SCUM over someone's car? And polluting acres of groundwater by puncturing an oil tank? It's the same mentality as the ALF digging up corpses.

    MikeK said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    TGOHF said:
    Yes a couple of tweets and the press going through his bins and printing rubbish must have been bad.
    Are you proud of this Malcolm?

    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.
    To true @Malcolmg, CK was an un-rehabilitated alcoholic who was allowed to hold
    office despite his illness. Because he was a L/Dem MP he was left alone. If he had been a UKIP MP the heavens would have fallen in on him long ago, and I expect, hounded out of politics altogether.
    Yes. When he was on QT, it made you wonder if he didnt have any close friends who were able to pull him back when he was about to do something he shouldnt do. No friend would have allowed him on that show. The producers should have stepped in and also discouraged him from appearing on the day (though they might actually have done).
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Looking like he's about to burst into tears during almost every interview is a big factor here media wise.

    Some may be attracted to Billy Elliott emoting. I find it rather tiresome as a trait in a leader and possible PM.
    Danny565 said:

    It is not actually certain at all that Andy is going to be the more left-wing candidate. So far, Yvette's statements have actually been arguably to the Left of Andy's - and despite what the media might think, we're not stupid enough to vote for a candidate just because Len McCluskey tells us to.

    That said, one thing that might allow Andy to keep Left support is he is VERY good at producing the kind of "moral crusade" rhetoric even when he's pushing centrist policies, which is a plus for a lot of Labour members (though personally I kind of feel that kind of rhetoric turns off the public and that it makes the party look a bit like a cult when we start talking about how the Tories are evil baby-eaters). Plus, Andy is a better communicator than Yvette and frankly considerably better than Liz too for my money, and it may be that that is considered the most important qualification after the Miliband experience.

  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    malcolmg said:


    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.

    It's funny, I seem to remember quite recently a 'senior' Libdem on here saying what a drunken disaster Kennedy had been for the Libdems, and how negatively they felt towards him.

    I suppose we are all Charlie now.

    As Daisley suggests, the article had decided on its agenda irrespective of the facts.

    Stephen Daisley ‏@JournoStephen 45 mins45 minutes ago
    This reads like an article originally commissioned in expectation of a different post-mortem result http://tinyurl.com/q9ellle




    It is most probable that the loss of his seat is what tipped him over the edge. But that is politics. Losing your seat can take its toll. It's as if your life for the last thirty years have been a gigantic mistake.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @MaxPB

    You have to remember that the Euro is extremely popular in Greece. No government would get elected on a promise to leave the Euro. Syriza was elected because they promised the Euro without austerity.

    I think Greece will stay in the Euro. It is popular there, and no one remembers the Drachma fondly.

    Debasing a currency is no route to economic success.
    And yet Germany used it for the last 15 years to great success. Germany has a chronically undervalued currency which has allowed it to build up a massive current account and trade surplus to the detriment of the rest of Europe (and us). The Deutsche Mark would trade at parity or above with GBP, the Euro currently trades at 1.37. This idea that a nation can't debase its way to success has been thoroughly disproved by German and China over the last 15-20 years.
    An undervalued currency is not the same as debasing a currency via devaluation and inflation.
    It's a controlled debasement. Either through internal austerity (Germany) or through a currency peg (China). It is still a debasement or devaluation, whatever you want to call it.
    Internal austerity and living within ones means is not the same as defaulting on debt or debasing the currency with inflation.

    Postwar German economic success is built on a sound money policy, there is no shortcut to that.
    GDP per head is now lower in absolute terms than it was in 1999, in Italy. Their economy depended on regular devaluations of the lira to remain competitive. In theory, closing off devaluation as an option should have forced Italy to become more competitive. In practice, it made everyone poorer.

    For countries whose economies were based around regular devaluations to remain competitive, a fixed currency regime was bound to be extremely difficult.

    Are you sure, re Italy. Google Data (http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=wb-wdi&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:ITA&ifdim=country&tstart=960246000000&tend=1275778800000&ind=false) would seem to suggest that GDP per head is comfortably higher than in 1999.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    74 maiden speeches done so far....I think no-one did a "John McDonnell" yet when mentioning their predecessor. I wonder what the Bradford West will say about about her predecessor.

    At the end we can award the "fakest praise" winner!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Pulpstar said:

    How can anyone take the Mail article seriously after this:

    "This unedifying act of vandalism — carried out, O’Neill assumes, by someone loyal to Kennedy’s political opponent "

    Wouldn't exactly stand up in court, would it. Precisely the same sort of tosh was written about the NOTW deleting text messages.

    That last comparison is a bit off, if I remember events correctly. At least the article specified that it is assumed that the trashing was carried out by someone loyal to his opponent's campaign, and is reporting what someone else said to them (if the reporting is correct).

    Whereas the Guardian with the Dowler messages stated - as far as I recall unequivocally in the original story - that the NotW journalists had purposefully deleted the messages, and even invented the reason they did it. There was no doubt, no nuance, in the story. It was those evil NotW hacks wot did it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    @MaxPB

    Greece leaving the Euro would be incredibly hard on people with fixed incomes or who live off their savings. The costs of all imported goods - such as energy, food, etc. - would soar.

    There are no good options. Greece should never have joined the Euro; should have left in 2010; and should have left again when the chance was offered at the start of this year.

    But the idea that Greece would suddenly be booming in the event of a departure from the Eurozone is a fantasy.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Burnham always looks like he is sitting on a wet seat..so does Cooper
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That'll be worth watching :smiley:

    74 maiden speeches done so far....I think no-one did a "John McDonnell" yet when mentioning their predecessor. I wonder what the Bradford West will say about about her predecessor.

    At the end we can award the "fakest praise" winner!

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    notme said:

    malcolmg said:


    It is absolute rubbish, just made up tripe. Complete and utter rubbish and only part was the political campaign and if he was not able to handle the hustings he should not have been there. Everybody knows what was wrong with him , his illness was very sad , but for this toilet paper of a rag to say the SNP drove him to death is for morons and idiots only. I cannot believe you as an educated person believe any of it is true Mike.
    The man was very well liked and respected by everyone.

    PS, If true it would of course be despicable but it is pure fantasy.

    It's funny, I seem to remember quite recently a 'senior' Libdem on here saying what a drunken disaster Kennedy had been for the Libdems, and how negatively they felt towards him.

    I suppose we are all Charlie now.

    As Daisley suggests, the article had decided on its agenda irrespective of the facts.

    Stephen Daisley ‏@JournoStephen 45 mins45 minutes ago
    This reads like an article originally commissioned in expectation of a different post-mortem result http://tinyurl.com/q9ellle




    It is most probable that the loss of his seat is what tipped him over the edge. But that is politics. Losing your seat can take its toll. It's as if your life for the last thirty years have been a gigantic mistake.
    It wasn’t just his seat, either was it? It was the car-crash which enveloped the LibDems as a whole, a project to which he’d given his adult life.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    The only thing the new Yardley woman had to say about Hemming was:

    "Like those of my predecessor, John Hemming, my roots in Birmingham, Yardley run deep. I know from reading his maiden speech that this was a source of great pride for him—and I feel the same."
    Plato said:

    That'll be worth watching :smiley:

    74 maiden speeches done so far....I think no-one did a "John McDonnell" yet when mentioning their predecessor. I wonder what the Bradford West will say about about her predecessor.

    At the end we can award the "fakest praise" winner!

  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    Plato

    "You know what would be really nice and refreshing? A SNPer on here saying "If this is true, it's appalling. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, and I wouldn't want them in my Party."

    OK. If it is true that members of the SNP are planning a series of assassinations of unionist politicians in order to achieve Scottish independence then I would not want them in the party.

    On the other hand, I might like some real evidence!!

    Dear Plato, you have had a logical bypass, which leads to idiotic questions of the "When did you stop beating your wife type"

    Try and get a grip of your irrational anti-SNP prejudice.

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    TGOHF said:
    I am not surprised by this, we have seen some indications of SNP fanaticism on here and I am pro-independence. That said the fact that Charles had a poor voting record and seems to have lacked a massive local vote created a political opportunity at a time when the LD brand was in the pits. Charles was there to be attacked politically and that is what most of the SNP's attacks were. Most were legitimate. It is still sad, but probably inevitable since the man lived for politics and yet it brought him little purpose or happiness in the last few years.
    Apart from the entire Daily Mail article being factually incorrect, unsubstantiated nonsense and/or faux outrage, I'm sure you have a point somewhere.

    As Campbell says, if his bins were raked, I would suspect a certain group of people associated with the media to be the prime suspects not supporters of Independence or the SNP.

    Not to mention the utter hypocrisy of the Daily Mail

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/mailkennedy.jpg
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    Dair,

    Oh come on, surely you, I, and all the other pro-independence/SNP types should be apologising, as if it were a proven truth, for every fantastical anti-SNP invention of the Daily Mail and Telegraph :-) :-) :-)
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