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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the Lib Dem leadership race starts a timely reminder fro

SystemSystem Posts: 11,706
edited June 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the Lib Dem leadership race starts a timely reminder from Ladbrokes of the devastation the party suffered at GE15

Next Lib Dem leader betting, 5 years ago:
4 Laws
5 Alexander
8 Teather
8 Huhne
10 Farron
10 Cable
10 Davey
16 Swinson
20 Hughes
25 Lamb

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,950
    edited June 2015
    1st?

    Shadsy will be a happy man the way that market played out!
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,073
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    What arrangements are being made for the two candidates to present themselves to LibDem members?
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Think this is more relevant to the new thread.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c3s4pLsN9M
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    There was a time when LD party ‘Grandees’ were always in the news, or so it appeared; now off the top of my head, I can only think of Dame Shirley, Lord Razzall, Sir Malcolm Bruce and Paddy Ashdown. – Do they still hold the same clout as a decade ago?
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    What arrangements are being made for the two candidates to present themselves to LibDem members?

    Plenty of pubs have upstairs rooms for that sort of thing.
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,940

    What arrangements are being made for the two candidates to present themselves to LibDem members?

    Plenty of pubs have upstairs rooms for that sort of thing.
    There are 12 hustings meetings planned starting with Plymouth on Friday and ending with Stratford on Avon at the beginning of July. I believe the London hustings had to be rescheduled because the original venue wasn't big enough!
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,844

    What arrangements are being made for the two candidates to present themselves to LibDem members?

    There's a London hustings event planned and I presume similar will be held in other regions.

    On the topic of grandees, while Williams is backing Lamb, I note Steel is backing Farron.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    slade said:

    There are 12 hustings meetings planned starting with Plymouth on Friday and ending with Stratford on Avon at the beginning of July. I believe the London hustings had to be rescheduled because the original venue wasn't big enough!

    Thanks slade. That suggests to me that Norman Lamb has plenty of opportunity to overcome the current apparent advantage of Tim Farron, which probably does mean he is the value bet at the moment.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    FPT:
    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    Think of all the Scottish food banks that this trial could have paid for...

    How many pairs of tartan trews..?
    Or nights in the Peninsula Hotel, Chicago, or more seriously, under privileged students to University because of the Scottish middle class subsidy of free University tuition?
    University student numbers are higher under the SNP.
    Just not for Scots:

    Scottish students are losing out on places at some of the country’s most eminent universities to youngsters from the Continent attracted by the SNP’s promise of a ‘free’ degree, new figures have suggested.
    Official statistics obtained under the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act found the number of Scots accepted at Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee universities has fallen over the past two years.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11428014/Scots-losing-out-on-university-places-to-EU-students.html
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,940

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I would have thought Lamb's best angle by far would be Farron's gay rights record (and indeed his religiosity in general). Difficult card to play subtly, so maybe he should play it blatantly?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405
    Surely it would be cheaper for them to share a taxi and visit each LD member individually?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I think you can still vote if you join today. I think Farron is the best candidate, but the odds are way too short.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Catherine McKinnell speaking in the HoC now

    She would be a better candidate for leader than any of the current crop
  • Options
    sladeslade Posts: 1,940

    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I think you can still vote if you join today. I think Farron is the best candidate, but the odds are way too short.
    Yes - you have37 minutes left to join. The electorate seems likely to be near 62000. This compares with 64000 when Clegg was elected.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I would have thought Lamb's best angle by far would be Farron's gay rights record (and indeed his religiosity in general). Difficult card to play subtly, so maybe he should play it blatantly?
    Quite apart from being quite an offensive tack, it may also be counter productive. Farrons religiosity and social conservatism may well go down well with the non-metropolitan membership, particularly the left wing kipper inclined.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,741

    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I would have thought Lamb's best angle by far would be Farron's gay rights record (and indeed his religiosity in general). Difficult card to play subtly, so maybe he should play it blatantly?
    He has already been playing that card. I heard an interview he gave a couple of weeks ago and he was being anything but subtle.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Dair said:

    Think this is more relevant to the new thread.

    //www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c3s4pLsN9M

    It's rubbish.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm just relieved my surname wasn't Razzall - what an open goal that is for one's reputation!

    There was a time when LD party ‘Grandees’ were always in the news, or so it appeared; now off the top of my head, I can only think of Dame Shirley, Lord Razzall, Sir Malcolm Bruce and Paddy Ashdown. – Do they still hold the same clout as a decade ago?

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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,230
    edited June 2015
    @Charles and @JosiasJessop (fpt):-

    The issue with having rules is that people lose the habit of using their judgment, of thinking about whether they are doing the right thing rather than doing what is in compliance with or at least not a breach of the rules.

    Everyone in banking needs to have a moral compass, a professional conscience, if you will, and value that. And they need to remember that the question they should be asking themselves every single day is not just "Can I do this?". But "Should I do this?"

    The difference between "can" and "should" is judgment. And judgment has been sorely lacking all too often.

    But, frankly, the first thing to do is to get the right people into the industry in the first place. If you bring people in who are dishonest or who do not value their integrity, then no amount of rules will help. Employers need to remember that character (moral character, if you will) trumps skills every time, especially in an industry like banking where trustworthiness is the most important single factor which counts in developing the right culture.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I would have thought Lamb's best angle by far would be Farron's gay rights record (and indeed his religiosity in general). Difficult card to play subtly, so maybe he should play it blatantly?
    Quite apart from being quite an offensive tack, it may also be counter productive. Farrons religiosity and social conservatism may well go down well with the non-metropolitan membership, particularly the left wing kipper inclined.
    I can see that it might be counter-productive. But then he is the outsider.
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,940

    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I would have thought Lamb's best angle by far would be Farron's gay rights record (and indeed his religiosity in general). Difficult card to play subtly, so maybe he should play it blatantly?
    Quite apart from being quite an offensive tack, it may also be counter productive. Farrons religiosity and social conservatism may well go down well with the non-metropolitan membership, particularly the left wing kipper inclined.
    I am often surprised by how many Lib Dems are religious. When I moved to my current location there were 10 Lib Dems on the town council. 4 were C of E, 3 were Methodists, and I was a Baptist (and all regular attenders).
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Isn't being pro gay rather old hat nowadays? It feels so beyond sell by date.

    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I would have thought Lamb's best angle by far would be Farron's gay rights record (and indeed his religiosity in general). Difficult card to play subtly, so maybe he should play it blatantly?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,741
    Plato said:

    Isn't being pro gay rather old hat nowadays? It feels so beyond sell by date.

    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I would have thought Lamb's best angle by far would be Farron's gay rights record (and indeed his religiosity in general). Difficult card to play subtly, so maybe he should play it blatantly?
    Didn't we establish the other day that asexual is the new gay?
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I don't think Farron did himself any favours in the tribute to Kennedy session after PMQs. Lamb got the right note.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I await S&M being the new must-have friends post 50 Shades :wink:

    Plato said:

    Isn't being pro gay rather old hat nowadays? It feels so beyond sell by date.

    slade said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    The latest figure for new members is 16370. My suspicion is that many will be Farron supporters but if they attend the hustings Lamb may be able to win them over by concentrating on hot button policy issues.
    I would have thought Lamb's best angle by far would be Farron's gay rights record (and indeed his religiosity in general). Difficult card to play subtly, so maybe he should play it blatantly?
    Didn't we establish the other day that asexual is the new gay?
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Ashdown really doesn't want Farron. It will be interesting to see how he works things to achieve a Lamb victory.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. Smithson, was it something Farron said, or the tone?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    @Charles and @JosiasJessop (fpt):-

    The issue with having rules is that people lose the habit of using their judgment, of thinking about whether they are doing the right thing rather than doing what is in compliance with or at least not a breach of the rules.

    Everyone in banking needs to have a moral compass, a professional conscience, if you will, and value that. And they need to remember that the question they should be asking themselves every single day is not just "Can I do this?". But "Should I do this?"

    The difference between "can" and "should" is judgment. And judgment has been sorely lacking all too often.

    But, frankly, the first thing to do is to get the right people into the industry in the first place. If you bring people in who are dishonest or who do not value their integrity, then no amount of rules will help. Employers need to remember that character (moral character, if you will) trumps skills every time, especially in an industry like banking where trustworthiness is the most important single factor which counts in developing the right culture.

    I wish my compliance people were as sensible as you!
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,230
    @JosiasJessop (fpt):

    There are literally thousands and thousands of rules in banking and policies and procedures and guidance and what have you.

    Nothing wrong with general principles: See the 10 Commandments for instance.
    If bankers had followed the injunctions to not steal, not lie and not be greedy the banking industry wouldn't be in the mess it's in.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    It depends how you describe lots. Yes they've had 6k new members but compare that to what happened to the Scottish Greens and the SNP after Indyref and it looks very, very weak for a party recruiting from the whole of GB. It is, to my mind, massively over-stated as a positive by the Liberals.
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    PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274

    Ashdown really doesn't want Farron. It will be interesting to see how he works things to achieve a Lamb victory.

    Ashdown seems to be the ultimate backseat driver. Does it have to be this way?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. Dair, more members are generally a good thing.

    The SNP membership surge was very dramatic, but I don't think it can be compared to the Lib Dems because the circumstances are very different.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    FPT:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    Think of all the Scottish food banks that this trial could have paid for...

    How many pairs of tartan trews..?
    Or nights in the Peninsula Hotel, Chicago, or more seriously, under privileged students to University because of the Scottish middle class subsidy of free University tuition?
    University student numbers are higher under the SNP.
    Just not for Scots:

    Scottish students are losing out on places at some of the country’s most eminent universities to youngsters from the Continent attracted by the SNP’s promise of a ‘free’ degree, new figures have suggested.
    Official statistics obtained under the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act found the number of Scots accepted at Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee universities has fallen over the past two years.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11428014/Scots-losing-out-on-university-places-to-EU-students.html
    Your link doesn't say what you think it says. Typical.

    Perhaps while you and the rest of the Loyalist brigade are slugging back the Buckfast in George Square on Saturday you can reflect on how badly this line of attack is doing and how Scotland as a whole still has faith in the SNP and are very supportive of the SNP on Education matters (at all levels).

    Hint - the lies you keep spewing are not working.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Dr Fox,

    "Farrons religiosity and social conservatism may well go down well with the non-metropolitan membership, particularly the left wing kipper inclined."

    You're playing my tune. And you're right.
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    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Interesting that the new leaders of both Labour and Libs are going to be chasing the same vote, trying to outbland the other with their obsession of occupying the centre ground. Cameron must be laughing his socks off, who was it that spoke of lucky generals?
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Plato said:

    I'm just relieved my surname wasn't Razzall - what an open goal that is for one's reputation!

    There was a time when LD party ‘Grandees’ were always in the news, or so it appeared; now off the top of my head, I can only think of Dame Shirley, Lord Razzall, Sir Malcolm Bruce and Paddy Ashdown. – Do they still hold the same clout as a decade ago?

    Wasn't there a soft porn mag called Razzall? - TSE? SeanT?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. 63, Napoleon.
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    Mr. 63, Napoleon.

    He also said never to interrupt your enemy while he's making a mistake. We should all pipe down while Labour elects Butcher.

    It doesn't much matter whether the fourth party makes a mistake over this or not.
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    DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Cyclefree said:

    @Charles and @JosiasJessop (fpt):-

    The issue with having rules is that people lose the habit of using their judgment, of thinking about whether they are doing the right thing rather than doing what is in compliance with or at least not a breach of the rules.

    Everyone in banking needs to have a moral compass, a professional conscience, if you will, and value that. And they need to remember that the question they should be asking themselves every single day is not just "Can I do this?". But "Should I do this?"

    The difference between "can" and "should" is judgment. And judgment has been sorely lacking all too often.

    But, frankly, the first thing to do is to get the right people into the industry in the first place. If you bring people in who are dishonest or who do not value their integrity, then no amount of rules will help. Employers need to remember that character (moral character, if you will) trumps skills every time, especially in an industry like banking where trustworthiness is the most important single factor which counts in developing the right culture.

    Good post.

    "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

    Douglas Bader
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    TOPPING said:

    Surely it would be cheaper for them to share a taxi and visit each LD member individually?

    There are roughly 60,000 Lib Dem members.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. Bond, indeed.

    That said, a huge number of people of all political colours may have remarked upon the crapness of Miliband, but Labour ploughed straight ahead.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054
    Dair said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Haven't the Lib Dems had lots of new members sign up since the defenestration a few weeks ago? I wonder how the newcomers will affect things.

    It depends how you describe lots. Yes they've had 6k new members but compare that to what happened to the Scottish Greens and the SNP after Indyref and it looks very, very weak for a party recruiting from the whole of GB. It is, to my mind, massively over-stated as a positive by the Liberals.
    It's better than nothing, which is what they had in terms of positives given the result. It's not overstated, it's just all they have so it looks overstated.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    If the Labour Leader race shows the melting innards of the current Labour Party, and is sending almost everyone to sleep; then the L/Dem Leader race shows that parties innards have vanished all together.

    No bets on this one. Mike is losing his money on this one: talk about shearing sheep. ;)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Macisback (last thread) Regardless of your views or those of the Tory leadership Burnham leads with Labour voters, all voters and Tories, Ed Miliband did not even lead with Labour voters in 2010 let alone voters as a whole but won through the union votes. Yougov also forecast a Tory lead just not the swing to give a Tory majority
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,230
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    @Charles and @JosiasJessop (fpt):-

    The issue with having rules is that people lose the habit of using their judgment, of thinking about whether they are doing the right thing rather than doing what is in compliance with or at least not a breach of the rules.

    Everyone in banking needs to have a moral compass, a professional conscience, if you will, and value that. And they need to remember that the question they should be asking themselves every single day is not just "Can I do this?". But "Should I do this?"

    The difference between "can" and "should" is judgment. And judgment has been sorely lacking all too often.

    But, frankly, the first thing to do is to get the right people into the industry in the first place. If you bring people in who are dishonest or who do not value their integrity, then no amount of rules will help. Employers need to remember that character (moral character, if you will) trumps skills every time, especially in an industry like banking where trustworthiness is the most important single factor which counts in developing the right culture.

    I wish my compliance people were as sensible as you!
    If your compliance people don't realise the importance of having good judgment and being trustworthy dare I suggest getting some different compliance people?!

    I have spent 30 years catching crooks of one type or another. In virtually every single case matters went wrong because people did the wrong thing or failed to do the right thing. So the quality of the people you hire, their default instincts/default judgment, what they will do when no-one is looking, when there are no rules or the rules are not clear is key. You need people whose instinct is to do the right thing, even if the right thing is to admit that they don't know and ask for help. And as I'm sure you know, admitting that and asking for help/advice is rarer than it should be.

    It is a delusion that politicians, regulators, lawyers and managers are prone to - the delusion that if you can only tweak this rule or that process or those procedures you can get to a situation where bad things won't happen or will be caught.

    Where there is money there will be greed, stupidity, hubris, complacency and cowardice. Hiring people who don't display those characteristics is a start, not sufficient, but an essential start.

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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    Interesting that the new leaders of both Labour and Libs are going to be chasing the same vote, trying to outbland the other with their obsession of occupying the centre ground. Cameron must be laughing his socks off, who was it that spoke of lucky generals?

    Of course, its not like he had any part in putting them in that position ...
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    edited June 2015

    Plato said:

    I'm just relieved my surname wasn't Razzall - what an open goal that is for one's reputation!

    There was a time when LD party ‘Grandees’ were always in the news, or so it appeared; now off the top of my head, I can only think of Dame Shirley, Lord Razzall, Sir Malcolm Bruce and Paddy Ashdown. – Do they still hold the same clout as a decade ago?

    Wasn't there a soft porn mag called Razzall? - TSE? SeanT?
    I'm not the person to ask about porn mags. Never bought or read one.

    I mean do they even exist in this era of high speed internet ? Oh wait this is a family website
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Bond, indeed.

    That said, a huge number of people of all political colours may have remarked upon the crapness of Miliband, but Labour ploughed straight ahead.

    Yeah but most of them would have said the same thing about whoever was leader. They might even have been right, which is a complicating factor. What criticism (often descending to personal abuse) of Ed would not have been aimed at David if the election had gone as expected?
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,940
    Just been checking the venues for the Lib Dem Hustings meetings. There are two interesting ones - The Gloucestershire County Cricket Ground in Bristol and the Royal Welsh Showground in Builth Wells. Cue sporting and agricultural references?
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    There can't be many Razzalls, I knew a Rosie Razzall at uni, she's now, ahem, Curator of Prints and Drawings at Royal Collection Trust.

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608
    On topic I think at one point or another during the last parliament I must have backed all of them.

    I nearly did a thread on Danny Alexander when he was 25/1 headlined "Alexander the Great"
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    Mr. Bond, indeed.

    That said, a huge number of people of all political colours may have remarked upon the crapness of Miliband, but Labour ploughed straight ahead.

    I genuinely don't remember what was said at the time - do you? What I do recall is bemusement at Ed's ruthlessness in campaigning against his brother, and the widely shared view that the wrong brother had won. But when did the EIC meme actually start? All I really remember is that Ed was seen as a man who had risen largely without trace - which is not the same as being crap, necessarily, but which proved to be so in his case.

    Personally, I think both were crap and the rout would have been much the same. David M was basically a spineless damp rag who failed - twice - to take on Brown. He wouldn't have had the gumption to take an unpopular position on any conceivable issue, so would have ended up standing for nothing in the same way as his brother; just via a different route. Ed was incoherent because he was a vacuous nerd, David because he was a wet lettuce.

    Politics is well off without the pair of them.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. L, would D. Miliband have proposed a commodity price freeze? Land seizures? Making Islamophobia a criminal offence after the Rahman and Rotherham cases?

    Don't get me wrong, Miliband the Elder isn't great. But he isn't as rubbish as his brother [although he does have some Iraq baggage].
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Well, quite.

    Mr. L, would D. Miliband have proposed a commodity price freeze? Land seizures? Making Islamophobia a criminal offence after the Rahman and Rotherham cases?

    Don't get me wrong, Miliband the Elder isn't great. But he isn't as rubbish as his brother [although he does have some Iraq baggage].

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054
    edited June 2015

    Mr. Bond, indeed.

    That said, a huge number of people of all political colours may have remarked upon the crapness of Miliband, but Labour ploughed straight ahead.

    Yeah but most of them would have said the same thing about whoever was leader. They might even have been right, which is a complicating factor. What criticism (often descending to personal abuse) of Ed would not have been aimed at David if the election had gone as expected?
    I was long a defender of Ed, i really did not think he was as crap as people said and I thought he would win and show that he would not be a disaster as PM, even though on balance I preferred Cameron (ideally in a coalition, but oh well), and while you might be right that 'most' would have said the same thing whoever was leader, it was noticable how little confidence there appeared to be in Miliband at times, and I think there is a point to be made that a significant enough number of those who would not as a matter of course have said the same thing, were infact saying the same thing.
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,940

    There can't be many Razzalls, I knew a Rosie Razzall at uni, she's now, ahem, Curator of Prints and Drawings at Royal Collection Trust.

    There can't be many Razzalls, I knew a Rosie Razzall at uni, she's now, ahem, Curator of Prints and Drawings at Royal Collection Trust.

    Probably the best known is Katie - a reporter with Channel 4 News and Newsnight. ( and I believe the daughter of his Lordship).
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Lamb would be a safe pair of hands but the LDs cannot afford that now, Farron offers their best chance to win back Labour tactical voters in LD-Tory marginals
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Dair said:

    It depends how you describe lots. Yes they've had 6k new members but compare that to what happened to the Scottish Greens and the SNP after Indyref and it looks very, very weak for a party recruiting from the whole of GB. It is, to my mind, massively over-stated as a positive by the Liberals.

    I think you mean over 16,500 new members, Mr Dair. Please try to keep up.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    On topic I think at one point or another during the last parliament I must have backed all of them.

    I nearly did a thread on Danny Alexander when he was 25/1 headlined "Alexander the Great"

    I've got a slip on Carmichael somewhere, presumably following advice on pb. I'm not optimistic he'll be winning here.
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    Plato said:

    I'm just relieved my surname wasn't Razzall - what an open goal that is for one's reputation!

    There was a time when LD party ‘Grandees’ were always in the news, or so it appeared; now off the top of my head, I can only think of Dame Shirley, Lord Razzall, Sir Malcolm Bruce and Paddy Ashdown. – Do they still hold the same clout as a decade ago?

    Wasn't there a soft porn mag called Razzall? - TSE? SeanT?
    I'm not the person to ask about porn mags. Never bought or read one.

    I mean do they even exist in this era of high speed internet ? Oh wait this is a family website
    Well, nobody "read" them exactly, did they?

    Nobody bought them either. They always seemed to be handed furtively round as having been pinched from someone's older brother's porn stash. IIRC - and I'm going back to the 70s - the tone of them was worship of the women pictured, who had usually been groomed, glammed and taken to some interesting location. The subtext being, I presume, "keep buying the magazine, boys - you'll never have a woman like this one". That has sure changed....

    Mr. Bond, indeed.

    That said, a huge number of people of all political colours may have remarked upon the crapness of Miliband, but Labour ploughed straight ahead.

    Yeah but most of them would have said the same thing about whoever was leader. They might even have been right, which is a complicating factor. What criticism (often descending to personal abuse) of Ed would not have been aimed at David if the election had gone as expected?
    Actually the Tory party's characterisations have always been right. Always. When they critique the Labour leader it pays to listen because they are spot on.

    Callaghan: bumbling old fool in thrall to commie union bosses
    Foot: unreconstructed old commie fool
    Kinnock: verbose, immature, irresponsible, not cut out for the job
    Smith: sanctimonious tax and spend economy vandal
    Blair: demon eyes
    Brown: lunatic
    Miliband: lightweight

    would anyone now seriously question any of those judgements?

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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    I can claim to have spotted Ed as a dud immediately. The resemblance to Wallace was obvious. And yes, I am shallow.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Interesting that the new leaders of both Labour and Libs are going to be chasing the same vote, trying to outbland the other with their obsession of occupying the centre ground. Cameron must be laughing his socks off, who was it that spoke of lucky generals?

    Lucky that Cameron´s government is tering off to the extreme, authoritarian right.

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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    I dunno, Callaghan did a solid job in tough circumstances having been somewhat dropped in it by Wilson and, probably equally, Heath.

    ANY Labour/wet leader would have been played for fun by the unions.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405
    edited June 2015

    TOPPING said:

    Surely it would be cheaper for them to share a taxi and visit each LD member individually?

    There are roughly 60,000 Lib Dem members.
    what on earth are they expecting or do they want from their party?

    Centre Right? Centre Left? Left? Right?

    WHAT DO THEY WANT???

    Ahem...just that along with (population of UK - [60,000]) I can't see what the point of the LDs is.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Scott_P said:
    ... a trainee journalist who has written for publications including the Guardian, Vice and the New Statesman ...
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. P, racists? Like making white people angry? Saying white people like to divide and rule? Proposing ethnicity-based quotas for the workplace?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Peter Brookes nailed it perfectly

    http://times.newsprints.co.uk/view/30166761/nintchdbpict000157208891_jpg
    CD13 said:


    I can claim to have spotted Ed as a dud immediately. The resemblance to Wallace was obvious. And yes, I am shallow.

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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    THe Liz Kendall story is all the more worrying for the fact it feels like it has been toned down by a sub-editor.
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    edited June 2015
    PClipp said:

    Interesting that the new leaders of both Labour and Libs are going to be chasing the same vote, trying to outbland the other with their obsession of occupying the centre ground. Cameron must be laughing his socks off, who was it that spoke of lucky generals?

    Lucky that Cameron´s government is tering off to the extreme, authoritarian right.

    Don't be silly. You'd like that to happen, so he'll obligingly lose, but there isn't the slightest sign of it. In any case, what's the alternative? Alex Salmond pulling Butcher's strings and robbing England?

    I don't see how the Scotch situation isn't toxic for Labour in perpetuity. Any vote that doesn't produce a Tory or Labour majority results in England being farmed for taxes to subsidise Scotland. The Tories are much closer to - indeed, actually have - a majority based on English votes and therefore the safest vote an English elector can cast is for the Tories.

    No?

    As a great sage once said, the 2015 election "ought to herald another decade of strong, confident, consensual government".
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,608

    On topic I think at one point or another during the last parliament I must have backed all of them.

    I nearly did a thread on Danny Alexander when he was 25/1 headlined "Alexander the Great"

    I've got a slip on Carmichael somewhere, presumably following advice on pb. I'm not optimistic he'll be winning here.
    Trading bet ahem.

    I hope you followed me in when I backed/tipped Liz Kendall at 50/1 and 20/1?
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    kle4 said:

    Mr. Bond, indeed.

    That said, a huge number of people of all political colours may have remarked upon the crapness of Miliband, but Labour ploughed straight ahead.

    Yeah but most of them would have said the same thing about whoever was leader. They might even have been right, which is a complicating factor. What criticism (often descending to personal abuse) of Ed would not have been aimed at David if the election had gone as expected?
    I was long a defender of Ed, i really did not think he was as crap as people said and I thought he would win and show that he would not be a disaster as PM, even though on balance I preferred Cameron (ideally in a coalition, but oh well), and while you might be right that 'most' would have said the same thing whoever was leader, it was noticable how little confidence there appeared to be in Miliband at times, and I think there is a point to be made that a significant enough number of those who would not as a matter of course have said the same thing, were infact saying the same thing.
    I think there were two problems with Ed. First, the decision to say nothing about anything for five years left the Conservatives to dictate the electoral narrative, and meant no policy proposals were tested. What was Labour for? Second, not realising the rules had changed after Obama. So we were left with Ed is Crap as the main theme of the campaign, and stumbling at the last debate seemed to confirm it, rather like Kinnock falling into the sea.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Bond, indeed.

    That said, a huge number of people of all political colours may have remarked upon the crapness of Miliband, but Labour ploughed straight ahead.

    Yeah but most of them would have said the same thing about whoever was leader. They might even have been right, which is a complicating factor. What criticism (often descending to personal abuse) of Ed would not have been aimed at David if the election had gone as expected?
    I was long a defender of Ed, i really did not think he was as crap as people said and I thought he would win and show that he would not be a disaster as PM, even though on balance I preferred Cameron (ideally in a coalition, but oh well), and while you might be right that 'most' would have said the same thing whoever was leader, it was noticable how little confidence there appeared to be in Miliband at times, and I think there is a point to be made that a significant enough number of those who would not as a matter of course have said the same thing, were infact saying the same thing.
    I think there were two problems with Ed. First, the decision to say nothing about anything for five years left the Conservatives to dictate the electoral narrative, and meant no policy proposals were tested. What was Labour for? Second, not realising the rules had changed after Obama. So we were left with Ed is Crap as the main theme of the campaign, and stumbling at the last debate seemed to confirm it, rather like Kinnock falling into the sea.
    People said for so long that Lab didn't need any policies at that (whatever it was) stage of the campaign that they eventually believed it themselves.

    The warning lights should have come on ages ago and at least, as a last chance, when it was clear that "Long Term Economic Plan" was going to become the Tories' mantra.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    There can't be many Razzalls, I knew a Rosie Razzall at uni, she's now, ahem, Curator of Prints and Drawings at Royal Collection Trust.

    Did she invite you up to view her etchings?

    ;-)
    CD13 said:

    Dr Fox,

    "Farrons religiosity and social conservatism may well go down well with the non-metropolitan membership, particularly the left wing kipper inclined."

    You're playing my tune. And you're right.

    Lib Dems are historically strong in the Highlands, Borders, Wales, the West Country and Northern Mill towns, all bastions of Chapel going or Presbyterianism. More Methodism than Marx is more true of the Liberals than the Labour party. The SDP wing tends to be more secular, such as Cable, or Catholic such as Kennedy.

    Not everyone like religiosity in public life; but I suspect that traditional Liberals are more open to it than most.

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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    edited June 2015
    It was a

    terrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiibbbbbbbblllllllllleeeeeee

    night for the Lib-Dems! :^O
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    Bring back Paddy!
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    Paddy, Paddy, Paddy, In, In, In....
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    HYUFD said:

    Lamb would be a safe pair of hands but the LDs cannot afford that now, Farron offers their best chance to win back Labour tactical voters in LD-Tory marginals

    But he is also highly likely to lose some of the LD support on the right of the party - which is equally important in marginals.

    As someone who has voted LD in the past, Farron is really not someone I could ever vote for. Lamb would give them a chance to regroup and rebuild. Farron would use the job to push his own agenda rather than leading a reassessment of where the LDs should be going. And his agenda does not sit well with all past LD supporters.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    TOPPING said:

    what on earth are they expecting or do they want from their party? Centre Right? Centre Left? Left? Right? WHAT DO THEY WANT???

    It could be, Mr Topping, that they want to live in a liberal society. This is best guaranteed by the Liberal Democrats.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Bond If Farronw ins back a few seats Labour could do a deal with the LDs without the SNP. 2015 also showed a big swing in the marginals above average swing, in 2020 there could be an equally big swingback if voters are in the mood for Labour again and wa nt to ensure they are not reliant on the SNP
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Oxfordsmin What LD support on the right of the party, the LDs are now on 7% and their lowest number of MPs for 40 years, keeping support on the right of the party has won them a few votes amongst some liberal city workers, lost support everywhere else, they have to win back leftwing tactical votes Kennedy and Ashdown won, some rightleaning liberals may even have voted for Cameron anyway
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    PClipp said:

    TOPPING said:

    what on earth are they expecting or do they want from their party? Centre Right? Centre Left? Left? Right? WHAT DO THEY WANT???

    It could be, Mr Topping, that they want to live in a liberal society. This is best guaranteed by the Liberal Democrats.
    Liberal is so vague though and can mean all sorts of things. Economic liberals? Social Liberals? Libertarians? The key question is how are the LDs different from the other parties - Con, Lab, Green etc
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    HYUFD said:

    Oxfordsmin What LD support on the right of the party, the LDs are now on 7% and their lowest number of MPs for 40 years, keeping support on the right of the party has won them a few votes amongst some liberal city workers, lost support everywhere else, they have to win back leftwing tactical votes Kennedy and Ashdown won, some rightleaning liberals may even have voted for Cameron anyway

    I have friends in the party who would leave if Farron becomes leader. He has to first rebuild the party machine before he can realistically win back significant numbers of votes. And that means retaining the broad spectrum of beliefs that used to be found in the LDs.

    Farron represents a very particular line of thought and that is not as widely liked as you appear to think.

    The LDs have to stick to the middle ground - moving to the left under Farron will not bring them the dividends they need to become a major national party again. Protest group - yes, future party of government - no.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    HYUFD said:

    Lamb would be a safe pair of hands but the LDs cannot afford that now, Farron offers their best chance to win back Labour tactical voters in LD-Tory marginals

    But he is also highly likely to lose some of the LD support on the right of the party - which is equally important in marginals.

    As someone who has voted LD in the past, Farron is really not someone I could ever vote for. Lamb would give them a chance to regroup and rebuild. Farron would use the job to push his own agenda rather than leading a reassessment of where the LDs should be going. And his agenda does not sit well with all past LD supporters.
    I like Lamb, and am politically closer to him, but I will be voting Fallon. I think that he has the dynamism needed while am not convinced that Lamb does. Farron was also less a part of the coalition, so can look at that period of LD history more critically.
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    DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106



    What was Labour for?

    Yes. The key point. It needs to be able to be stated in plain English in a short sentence.

    It's almost as if many in the party don't want to be a Social Democratic Party, even though it was an election winning formula, because Blair was associated with that kind of politics.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,073
    Cyclefree said:

    @JosiasJessop (fpt):

    There are literally thousands and thousands of rules in banking and policies and procedures and guidance and what have you.

    Nothing wrong with general principles: See the 10 Commandments for instance.
    If bankers had followed the injunctions to not steal, not lie and not be greedy the banking industry wouldn't be in the mess it's in.

    I don't think anyone in corporate finance has been able to keep the fourth commandment.

    And I'm not sure anyone in sales and trading has managed to avoid breaking the third on a daily basis.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,083
    Cyclefree said:

    @JosiasJessop (fpt):

    There are literally thousands and thousands of rules in banking and policies and procedures and guidance and what have you.

    Nothing wrong with general principles: See the 10 Commandments for instance.
    If bankers had followed the injunctions to not steal, not lie and not be greedy the banking industry wouldn't be in the mess it's in.

    Can I just thank yourself, Charles et al for an interesting conversation that has got me thinking.

    I'm not saying that general principles are not good: they are. It's just that I can't see how they can be relied upon, especially in large organisations.

    As you say in your post below, it's important to get the right people who can follow general principles. I think that's where I feel it may fall down.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,114

    FPT:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    Think of all the Scottish food banks that this trial could have paid for...

    How many pairs of tartan trews..?
    Or nights in the Peninsula Hotel, Chicago, or more seriously, under privileged students to University because of the Scottish middle class subsidy of free University tuition?
    University student numbers are higher under the SNP.
    Just not for Scots:

    Scottish students are losing out on places at some of the country’s most eminent universities to youngsters from the Continent attracted by the SNP’s promise of a ‘free’ degree, new figures have suggested.
    Official statistics obtained under the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act found the number of Scots accepted at Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee universities has fallen over the past two years.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11428014/Scots-losing-out-on-university-places-to-EU-students.html
    LOL, the Torygraph , it must be true ...Ha Ha Ha
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Disraeli said:



    What was Labour for?

    Yes. The key point. It needs to be able to be stated in plain English in a short sentence.

    It's almost as if many in the party don't want to be a Social Democratic Party, even though it was an election winning formula, because Blair was associated with that kind of politics.
    I don't think it needs to be a sentence, but the Labour Party does have to go back to mission statement level. I thought it would be interesting to see if I could define it, as a Tory, in a sympathetic way. How about:

    - Bringing about equality, social and economic;
    - Making the economy better, for its own sake and better for everyone;
    - Ensuring a bold vision for the UK by international participation.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't think anyone in corporate finance has been able to keep the fourth commandment.

    And I'm not sure anyone in sales and trading has managed to avoid breaking the third on a daily basis.

    Not to mention the seventh, and, especially, the tenth!
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Off topic, has anyone noticed that Greg Callus, once of this parish, has been caught in the middle of that most deadly of activities, the academic spat?

    http://aboutus.ft.com/files/2010/09/Ferguson-Adjudication-with-PS.pdf

    The tweets between the two men at the centre of all this are as wearying as any pb tussle.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    PClipp said:

    TOPPING said:

    what on earth are they expecting or do they want from their party? Centre Right? Centre Left? Left? Right? WHAT DO THEY WANT???

    It could be, Mr Topping, that they want to live in a liberal society. This is best guaranteed by the Liberal Democrats.
    Liberal is so vague though and can mean all sorts of things. Economic liberals? Social Liberals? Libertarians? The key question is how are the LDs different from the other parties - Con, Lab, Green etc
    Gareth has hit the nail on the head.

    Most voters have little knowledge of politics and what the parties stand for. They know that

    Conservatives are for businesmen and the better off
    Labour is for the workers
    UKIP are against being in the EU
    Greens are against damaging the environment

    But what do they think the Liberals stand for?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,073

    PClipp said:

    TOPPING said:

    what on earth are they expecting or do they want from their party? Centre Right? Centre Left? Left? Right? WHAT DO THEY WANT???

    It could be, Mr Topping, that they want to live in a liberal society. This is best guaranteed by the Liberal Democrats.
    Liberal is so vague though and can mean all sorts of things. Economic liberals? Social Liberals? Libertarians? The key question is how are the LDs different from the other parties - Con, Lab, Green etc
    Gareth has hit the nail on the head.

    Most voters have little knowledge of politics and what the parties stand for. They know that

    Conservatives are for businesmen and the better off
    Labour is for the workers
    UKIP are against being in the EU
    Greens are against damaging the environment

    But what do they think the Liberals stand for?
    Great insurgent parties are ones where voters to project their own images and believes onto the party.

    See Obama 2008.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    EU Fraud Doubles

    "Romania has topped a league table of EU fraud investigations, it emerged last night.

    One in four investigations completed by the European Union’s fraud watchdog related to the Eastern European country.

    The top four countries on the list were all from Eastern Europe. Behind Romania came Hungary, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic, followed by Italy. The UK was bottom of the list.

    OLAF, the fraud watchdog, called on the EU to try and recover more than 900million euros (£650million) of taxpayers’ money lost from its budget to suspected fraud last year. That is more than double the previous year’s amount."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3109215/

    This cannot occur without collusion by the relevant country and also massive failures by EU staff - or even bribery.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,073
    Financier said:

    EU Fraud Doubles

    "Romania has topped a league table of EU fraud investigations, it emerged last night.

    One in four investigations completed by the European Union’s fraud watchdog related to the Eastern European country.

    The top four countries on the list were all from Eastern Europe. Behind Romania came Hungary, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic, followed by Italy. The UK was bottom of the list.

    OLAF, the fraud watchdog, called on the EU to try and recover more than 900million euros (£650million) of taxpayers’ money lost from its budget to suspected fraud last year. That is more than double the previous year’s amount."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3109215/

    This cannot occur without collusion by the relevant country and also massive failures by EU staff - or even bribery.

    On the positive side, and unlike FIFA, the EU actually highlights where fraud is taking place.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Surely it would be cheaper for them to share a taxi and visit each LD member individually?

    There are roughly 60,000 Lib Dem members.
    what on earth are they expecting or do they want from their party?

    Centre Right? Centre Left? Left? Right?

    WHAT DO THEY WANT???

    Ahem...just that along with (population of UK - [60,000]) I can't see what the point of the LDs is.
    My view is that Lib Dems (or at least Libs) stand for Freedom, illustrated by:

    - Individual freedom (free from government interference)

    - Free markets (free from government intervention)

    - Free trade (between all countries not just within the EU) and against protectionism

    - Free education (up to age 18)

    - Free health treatment (at the point of delivery)

    - Welfare for those unable to look after themselves

    - Health and welfare paid for by a contributory system which qualifies you (a la Beveridge)

    - A small state so as to let people run their own lives
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    OxfordS Never mind government the LDs just need to avoid extinction, losing a few rich fiscal Liberals is irrelevant, they need to win Labour voters who voted tactically for them in Tory-LD marginals again, Farros in is best for that, anything else will just slow their demise
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