Richard out of curiosity what do you think the scenarios for Eurosceptics are following the referendum?
I currently see a few scenarios 1: Out wins. We leave, its over. There is no way there'd be a second vote to stay in. 2: England votes out, but Scotland votes in. Constitutional havoc ensues regardless of what the total is. 3: Narrow in vote. Eurosceptics keep pushing for "one more push" SNP style. 4: A significant in victory, say anything over 60%. This is what I see as most likely, but not sure how eurosceptics would respond?
If there's a significant in victory, would you consider the matter resolved for now, or would you keep agitating for out straight away?
Option 4 would split into 4a and 4b depending on whether the rest of the EU passed the agreed reforms or not.
Gossip on here about in fighting is just people that don't like the party in question taking a free hit and venting their dislike, with no chance of any comeback as no kne knows what's really going on.
If I were Carswell I would hire staff to do my errands that were also fantastic builders, road repairers and gardeners and encourage them to tidy up the cesspit that some of his clacton residents live in. That would be a 'change' to the usual way of doing things in politics., you might even call it direct democracy.
I like Carswell and campaigned for him last year but also found the need to question why a destitute place like Jaywick existed in the same constituency as Frinton and was moved to write to him passing on the desperation I heard from it's residents. Much as I was happy for Ukip to have an Mp, and in particular a thoughtful free thinker like Carswell, i did wonder what he had done to help those people in the decade previous.
Sorry Sam but your common sense has gone out of the window over this. The wealth or otherwise of Carswell's constituency is immaterial. Not one penny of the Short Money could be spent to improve the conditions of his constituents as that is not what it is for. What you are suggesting is basically fraud or at best extremely dishonest.
The problem here starts and ends with Farage. He should have stuck to his promise and stood down when he lost. He is losing whatever credibility he had left and is damaging the party (which doesn't concern me as much) and the Eursoceptic movement (which does) a huge amount.
You're entitled to your opinion but it is informed by your view on Farage which is probably very different to 3.7 if the 3.8 people who voted Ukip. I realise you see it as a vehicle for your boo desire, but to many other people, I would say most, who voted Ukip that is not their primary concern and you are kidding yourself if you think a farage less Ukip that majored on specifics of EU treaties would get much more than 2% at a GE. As it is you have a party that has got you closer to a referendum than any other in the last 40 years and you should consider why they are as popular as they are. I would suggest your ambitions for Ukip are carried along by most Ukips desire fir something else
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
Gossip on here about in fighting is just people that don't like the party in question taking a free hit and venting their dislike, with no chance of any comeback as no kne knows what's really going on.
On the short money, I repeat that Carswells constituency contains the most rundown area in the uk, Jaywick. I would think those people living it that hell hole, would be better off with an MP that has 650k to spend in staff than 350k.
If I were Carswell I would hire staff to do my errands that were also fantastic builders, road repairers and gardeners and encourage them to tidy up the cesspit that some of his clacton residents live in. That would be a 'change' to the usual way of doing things in politics., you might even call it direct democracy.
I like Carswell and campaigned for him last year but also found the need to question why a destitute place like Jaywick existed in the same constituency as Frinton and was moved to write to him passing on the desperation I heard from it's residents. Much as I was happy for Ukip to have an Mp, and in particular a thoughtful free thinker like Carswell, i did wonder what he had done to help those people in the decade previous.
Sorry Sam but your common sense has gone out of the window over this. The wealth or otherwise of Carswell's constituency is immaterial. Not one penny of the Short Money could be spent to improve the conditions of his constituents as that is not what it is for. What you are suggesting is basically fraud or at best extremely dishonest.
The problem here starts and ends with Farage. He should have stuck to his promise and stood down when he lost. He is losing whatever credibility he had left and is damaging the party (which doesn't concern me as much) and the Eursoceptic movement (which does) a huge amount.
Given the meltdown at UKIP, Dan Hannan and other Better Off Out supporters should probably do some headline grabbing initiative to show that them and UKIP are not interchangeable.
Mr. Antifrank, there's also a pair of Hunts, Brian May [probably so he can criticise Charles for wanting a badger cull] and Zanny Minton Beddoes [Economist editor. Or editrix, really].
It is admirable that Carswell wants to be frugal, and wants to be seen to be frugal. If the party were wealthy, and this money were immaterial, it would be fine statement. But UKIP is not in that position. Carswell is our only MP, representing 4 million of us. Why he thinks that would be easier to accomplish with 5 support staff, rather 15 remains unclear.
Carswell has said that poliicians need to keep promises made to electors. The Farage "unresigning" situation is playing around with the actualite. Farage and his close supporters may think it gets him off the hook from the promise to resign but I suggest that Carswell sees it as breaking an electoral promise.
Carswell has some integrity. He showed that during the MPs expenses scandal and he's shown it again now. Short money is there to support a party's MPs in their parliamentary work. Full Stop.
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
In general yes, but the Short Money is *specifically* to assist the parliamentary party in holding the government to account: to use it for other purposes would be dishonest.
You could probably stretch it to fund a policy team focused on developing a Life After Out platform, but tough to go much beyond that
Oh, and Nigel Farage is on Question Time tonight. That should be enjoyable.
So much for taking the summer off...
Surely he needs a break? The rest of us do! (from him)
I felt the same earlier in the week, but if he's really determined to add to the gaiety of the nation in the way that he is doing today, he can stick around for now.
The thing which scares me here is that the FPTP system has saved us from a likely Tory/UKIP/DUP coalition under PR, with the DUP providing the government with a strong moral compass.
UKIP appear unable to organise a piss up in a local brewery let alone their own party, the thought that around 4 million brave souls have confidence in this crew is interesting. UKIP keep tripping over their own feet and looking ridiculous, the MSM don't even need to make up or exaggerate stories about them. I think they should give David Coburn a try as party leader !!
Didn't Farage previously leave the leadership of UKIP in 2009 because he didn't feel his hard work and efforts were "appreciated" enough by the UKIP party as a whole?
He came back barely 18 months later.
Last time, he just needed a rub. Perhaps he needs the same this time too.
What this tells me (along with his rather thin skin to jokes made at his expense) is that Farage is actually quite a sensitive and self-centred guy and isn't very good at managing people.
If he were, he wouldn't have these difficulties and would have the self-awareness to recognise where his efforts were effective and appreciated, and where they were not.
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
In general yes, but the Short Money is *specifically* to assist the parliamentary party in holding the government to account: to use it for other purposes would be dishonest.
You could probably stretch it to fund a policy team focused on developing a Life After Out platform, but tough to go much beyond that
If Ukip were denounced by the other parties for taking money from Westmjnster and spending it on the poorest people in Britain I think it would be a net win for them with the public even if it's dishonest
"You've answered Labour to the VI question" - Now stick yourself in the polling booth - Are you seriously going to vote for Militwunt.
Given Labour's historic problem with getting their supporters to actually vote. Do they even bother getting out to the polling station to vote in the first place...
Oh, and Nigel Farage is on Question Time tonight. That should be enjoyable.
So much for taking the summer off...
Surely he needs a break? The rest of us do! (from him)
He probably does need a break, but having had his resignation undone (entirely by his design or by the approbation of the party doesn't matter in this context) and some rows erupting, he cannot really afford to take one.
If he seems more irritable than usual and decides to just lazily take swipes at the BBC audience any time he is not getting applause, that'll be a sign he's under too much stress. I don't know what was wrong with his initial plan of taking a few months and then maybe standing again for leader anyway - given he said that, he needn't have withdrawn his resignation even if the party asked for it, as he wait things out, say he would reflect on what they said and could claim their comments swayed him to come back as he still had work to do. Doing it so quickly begs the question why bother at all - didn't they tell him they would not accept his resignation before he did it?
Someone needs to set up the Independence Party of the United Kingdom at this rate.
Hmm that would be IPUK Not great..
The An Independence from Europe Party?
We heard a lot about AIFE stealing lots of UKIP votes last year. I suggest those who still hold to that theory take a look at the result in Solihull this year.
The thing which scares me here is that the FPTP system has saved us from a likely Tory/UKIP/DUP coalition under PR, with the DUP providing the government with a strong moral compass.
UKIP appear unable to organise a piss up in a local brewery let alone their own party, the thought that around 4 million brave souls have confidence in this crew is interesting. UKIP keep tripping over their own feet and looking ridiculous, the MSM don't even need to make up or exaggerate stories about them. I think they should give David Coburn a try as party leader !!
Not all of those 4 million will have done so - the knowledge that UKIP probably couldn't win the seat may have led to quite a few votes for them that may have gone elsewhere under PR - I'm not saying this is definitely the case. But it will have an effect, results under PR could be different.
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
In general yes, but the Short Money is *specifically* to assist the parliamentary party in holding the government to account: to use it for other purposes would be dishonest.
You could probably stretch it to fund a policy team focused on developing a Life After Out platform, but tough to go much beyond that
If Ukip were denounced by the other parties for taking money from Westmjnster and spending it on the poorest people in Britain I think it would be a net win for them with the public even if it's dishonest
Maybe - However, the media would expose it for the corruption it is - and I don’t think the electorate have forgotten expenses-gate, quite yet.
Oh, and Nigel Farage is on Question Time tonight. That should be enjoyable.
So much for taking the summer off...
Surely he needs a break? The rest of us do! (from him)
He probably does need a break, but having had his resignation undone (entirely by his design or by the approbation of the party doesn't matter in this context) and some rows erupting, he cannot really afford to take one.
If he seems more irritable than usual and decides to just lazily take swipes at the BBC audience any time he is not getting applause, that'll be a sign he's under too much stress. I don't know what was wrong with his initial plan of taking a few months and then maybe standing again for leader anyway - given he said that, he needn't have withdrawn his resignation even if the party asked for it, as he wait things out, say he would reflect on what they said and could claim their comments swayed him to come back as he still had work to do. Doing it so quickly begs the question why bother at all - didn't they tell him they would not accept his resignation before he did it?
Guessing but I reckon if he has have taken a few months off the people that are against him now would have taken over.
I won't apologise for being a Farage fan. He is the main reason Ukip got 13% not 3% and as we see in football when a popular long standing manager of a small mid table club is deemed to have 'taken the team as far a he could' a new guy with fresh ideas comes in and usually gets them relegated
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
In general yes, but the Short Money is *specifically* to assist the parliamentary party in holding the government to account: to use it for other purposes would be dishonest.
You could probably stretch it to fund a policy team focused on developing a Life After Out platform, but tough to go much beyond that
If Ukip were denounced by the other parties for taking money from Westmjnster and spending it on the poorest people in Britain I think it would be a net win for them with the public even if it's dishonest
Maybe - However, the media would expose it for the corruption it is - and I don’t think the electorate have forgotten expenses-gate, quite yet.
That was individual lining their own pockets. People hate troughers but they like Robin Hood,
If O'Flynn goes, so does the Desmond money. If Carswell goes, so does the Short money.
You really that happy to condemn UKIP to running eternal jumble sales?
Is that true about Carswell and the Short money? I could definitely see lawyers getting involved if Carswell decides to sit as an independent.
Yes, you have to have at least one MP and 150k votes at the election to get the Short money, which is allocated based on the quantity of MPs and votes received. It is specifically for "Parliamentary Business".
Carswell''s point is that he as the MP is accountable for spending it reasonably, and that the money on offer (around 650k I think) is more than enough to cover his staff and he needs only half of it.
Farage seems to be of the view that they should take every penny of the allowance and spend it as he sees fit on UKIP's head office - as would happen with eg. EU Parliament allowances.
But UKIP's lawyers would insist they did get at least one MP and 150k votes at the election, regardless of whether Carswell later defected. How would that be resolved, do they need to have an MP at time of payments or at the time of the election? Its a messy situation that would be a lot clearer had anyone other than Carswell won.
An interesting point to keep lots of lawyers busy! What would be the scenario if a party's single PM defects with regard to the Short money allocation? Would this be reviewed after one year if the money is awarded annually?
Carswell's unlikely to trigger another by-election on himself out of the mess, most likely he will resign the UKIP whip and sit as an "Independent Conservative" or Independent Libertarian" in the Commons rather than formally rejoin the Tories.
Carswell could call himself a National Liberal which is about right for his views - then Clagg and Lamb can join him after Farron turns the LDs into the Liberal Socialist Worker Democrats (Unicorns for all)
Oh, and Nigel Farage is on Question Time tonight. That should be enjoyable.
So much for taking the summer off...
Surely he needs a break? The rest of us do! (from him)
He probably does need a break, but having had his resignation undone (entirely by his design or by the approbation of the party doesn't matter in this context) and some rows erupting, he cannot really afford to take one.
If he seems more irritable than usual and decides to just lazily take swipes at the BBC audience any time he is not getting applause, that'll be a sign he's under too much stress. I don't know what was wrong with his initial plan of taking a few months and then maybe standing again for leader anyway - given he said that, he needn't have withdrawn his resignation even if the party asked for it, as he wait things out, say he would reflect on what they said and could claim their comments swayed him to come back as he still had work to do. Doing it so quickly begs the question why bother at all - didn't they tell him they would not accept his resignation before he did it?
Guessing but I reckon if he has have taken a few months off the people that are against him now would have taken over.
I won't apologise for being a Farage fan. He is the main reason Ukip got 13% not 3% and as we see in football when a popular long standing manager of a small mid table club is deemed to have 'taken the team as far a he could' a new guy with fresh ideas comes in and usually gets them relegated
Maybe you're right, there's no guarantee someone else could take them farther, and I do like Farage and want UKIP to do well irrespective of my own political leanings as I think more parties have more influence is a good thing (and even more important now the LDs are a hollowed-out shell), but in your analogy one reason someone else cannot take a team farther is that the underlying factors (money and so on) are not conducive to going any further, and removing the good manager reveals that. UKIP seem fairly well placed to capitalise on things - if not as well placed as they would have hoped - and now they are engaging in internal bloodletting instead.
As I said, they need to hold firm now and not tear themselves to pieces - if they can manage that, whoever wins this internal battle, they still have potential in the years ahead, but they need to get a grip.
I don't have a particular problem with Farage - he's a good performer (although the party's reliance on him causes some problems) - but failing to maintain unity in and of itself, a week after a significant improvement in the party's position, is a failing of the leader.
Richard out of curiosity what do you think the scenarios for Eurosceptics are following the referendum?
I currently see a few scenarios 1: Out wins. We leave, its over. There is no way there'd be a second vote to stay in. 2: England votes out, but Scotland votes in. Constitutional havoc ensues regardless of what the total is. 3: Narrow in vote. Eurosceptics keep pushing for "one more push" SNP style. 4: A significant in victory, say anything over 60%. This is what I see as most likely, but not sure how eurosceptics would respond?
If there's a significant in victory, would you consider the matter resolved for now, or would you keep agitating for out straight away?
I wouldn't agitate for Out straight away if there had been a big In victory. It would be pointless.
I would continue to campaign for us to leave and would wait for the inevitable EU moves to closer Union and the realisation that Cameron had got nothing substantial from his renegotiatin as it all falls apart over the following few years.
I would probably also watch and enjoy the sight of the Tory party fracturing as Cameron becomes regarded as a copy of Heath.
“We must speak about Gordon!” he shrieked like a twelve-year-old girl who’s just been dumped by her boyfriend. This was the week the ex-prime minister had given a long, laborious speech in the House of Commons about how Fleet Street had been the bane of his existence and had apparently stalked him mercilessly while he was chancellor and then PM. The journalist and I were sitting close together on a sofa. Strangely, Ed decided to jump in between the two of us, making it a very cosy threesome suddenly. I was face to face with Ed Miliband again, this time close enough to snog him. It was clear he still didn’t know who the hell I was (again, fair enough) so I introduced myself as magnanimously as possible.
norman smith @BBCNormanS 10m10 minutes ago No one is talking about Nigel's leadership - @UKIP spokesman
norman smith @BBCNormanS 2m2 minutes ago Nigel Farage is clearly tired and stressed and its time for him to move over - former @UKIP MEP Godfrey Bloom
Oh, and Nigel Farage is on Question Time tonight. That should be enjoyable.
So much for taking the summer off...
Surely he needs a break? The rest of us do! (from him)
He probably does need a break, but having had his resignation undone (entirely by his design or by the approbation of the party doesn't matter in this context) and some rows erupting, he cannot really afford to take one.
If he seems more irritable than usual and decides to just lazily take swipes at the BBC audience any time he is not getting applause, that'll be a sign he's under too much stress. I don't know what was wrong with his initial plan of taking a few months and then maybe standing again for leader anyway - given he said that, he needn't have withdrawn his resignation even if the party asked for it, as he wait things out, say he would reflect on what they said and could claim their comments swayed him to come back as he still had work to do. Doing it so quickly begs the question why bother at all - didn't they tell him they would not accept his resignation before he did it?
Guessing but I reckon if he has have taken a few months off the people that are against him now would have taken over.
I won't apologise for being a Farage fan. He is the main reason Ukip got 13% not 3% and as we see in football when a popular long standing manager of a small mid table club is deemed to have 'taken the team as far a he could' a new guy with fresh ideas comes in and usually gets them relegated
Maybe you're right, there's no guarantee someone else could take them farther, and I do like Farage and want UKIP to do well irrespective of my own political leanings as I think more parties have more influence is a good thing (and even more important now the LDs are a hollowed-out shell), but in your analogy one reason someone else cannot take a team farther is that the underlying factors (money and so on) are not conducive to going any further, and removing the good manager reveals that. UKIP seem fairly well placed to capitalise on things - if not as well placed as they would have hoped - and now they are engaging in internal bloodletting instead.
As I said, they need to hold firm now and not tear themselves to pieces - if they can manage that, whoever wins this internal battle, they still have potential in the years ahead, but they need to get a grip.
People in this blog dislike Farage, fair enough.
The people who vote Ukip love him and it is vain of the others in the party to imagine they are much more than footsoldiers. I know we have all had equality stuffed down out throats since school but this is so obvious I can't believe it needs saying
Someone needs to set up the Independence Party of the United Kingdom at this rate.
Hmm that would be IPUK Not great..
The An Independence from Europe Party?
We heard a lot about AIFE stealing lots of UKIP votes last year. I suggest those who still hold to that theory take a look at the result in Solihull this year.
I don't know if the "English National Party " has ever existed, if not, it might be worth giving it a go.
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
In general yes, but the Short Money is *specifically* to assist the parliamentary party in holding the government to account: to use it for other purposes would be dishonest.
You could probably stretch it to fund a policy team focused on developing a Life After Out platform, but tough to go much beyond that
If Ukip were denounced by the other parties for taking money from Westmjnster and spending it on the poorest people in Britain I think it would be a net win for them with the public even if it's dishonest
Maybe - However, the media would expose it for the corruption it is - and I don’t think the electorate have forgotten expenses-gate, quite yet.
That was individual lining their own pockets. People hate troughers but they like Robin Hood,
The people of his area might like it, but I cannot see the wider public seeing it that way, as they won't be getting any benefit - and rather than that being because it is money used for wider political purposes, it's because its being misused to the personal benefit of one politician and his area. The people Robin Hood gives money to like him, but some of those taxes were supposed to go to other needy people (in this instance in a more nebulous way, granted)
I quite like Isam's idea for the short money, and it would be amusing to see the Bubble telling everyone how terrible it was. But I think it would set a dangerous precedent and it might look like Ukip were saying that they will spend such money on a constituency were they to win.
We need less pork barrel politics, not more. Which is why we need to get rid of Scotland.
If carswell resigns from UKIP surely by his own code, he should need to step down and have a by-election, after he did that when he resigned from the Tories.
norman smith @BBCNormanS 10m10 minutes ago No one is talking about Nigel's leadership - @UKIP spokesman
norman smith @BBCNormanS 2m2 minutes ago Nigel Farage is clearly tired and stressed and its time for him to move over - former @UKIP MEP Godfrey Bloom
Re city devolution: what happens to those of us who don't happen to live in a city? Could Hampshire, for example, ask for devolved city status (with or without Soton and Pompey?
Without Portsmouth! Without Portsmouth!...let that city rot in its own flestering hole!!!
Reminds me of when the Defence Secretary (a while ago) was talking to one of our boys over in Basra.
"So you're from Southampton? Does Basra remind you of home?"
"It's dirty, smelly and people are trying to kill us on the streets. More like Portsmouth, to be honest"
DavidL - I don't understand why UKIP didn't let Farage just apply again in the Autumn. It'd give him plenty of time for R&R to recoup, and wouldn't have led to the farcical unresignation.
Except....that would give Carswell plenty of time to start moulding the party in a direction which causes apoplexy amongst UKIP's senior troughers....
Quite. Carswell is the one accountable for the Short money and wants to see it spent responsibly. Fair play to him for standing his ground and sticking up for the taxpayer.
Its not even as if this is a sudden change of heart or new idea either. He wrote about wanting Short Money - and the idea of state funding for parties in general - phased out years ago.
Yet Carswell has joined a political party, and he needs to accept that, regardless of formal control of the short money, he needs to go with the party's decision. If you devolve into this formal responsibility idea, then you'll end up with endless turf wars between different offices in the party. The whole point of forming a party is that you compromise on some issues to make collective decisions.
I think the fundamental issue is that he doesn't trust Farage to spend the money as it was intended, so he wants final oversight/signatory power.
Many people I have heard discuss the electoral system think that at some stage FPTP will be changed to a version of PR. But it may take a long time.
@RodCrosby has mentioned on here before that there were quiet advanced proposals for a move to STV in the second quarter of the 20th century, but the moment passed.
It's possible that the AV referendum will prove to be the nearest we come this time around to ditching FPTP, before two-party politics reasserts itself and the question goes away.
I quite like Isam's idea for the short money, and it would be amusing to see the Bubble telling everyone how terrible it was. But I think it would set a dangerous precedent and it might look like Ukip were saying that they will spend such money on a constituency were they to win.
We need less pork barrel politics, not more. Which is why we need to get rid of Scotland.
"We need to get rid of scotland"
1. Do you realise you just typed that? 2. Who is "we" ? 3. What do you mean by "get rid of" ?
Many people I have heard discuss the electoral system think that at some stage FPTP will be changed to a version of PR. But it may take a long time.
@RodCrosby has mentioned on here before that there were quiet advanced proposals for a move to STV in the second quarter of the 20th century, but the moment passed.
It's possible that the AV referendum will prove to be the nearest we come this time around to ditching FPTP, before two-party politics reasserts itself and the question goes away.
The only unanswered question is which two parties they will be...
SLAB and Murphy seem intent on condemning themselves to a death of a thousand cuts, as this is playing out publicly, SLAB are quickly losing any remaining non-core support. At this rate they'll be level pegging with SCUP at 15-17%, with the % falling year by year as their loyal older supporters exit stage left.
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
In general yes, but the Short Money is *specifically* to assist the parliamentary party in holding the government to account: to use it for other purposes would be dishonest.
You could probably stretch it to fund a policy team focused on developing a Life After Out platform, but tough to go much beyond that
If Ukip were denounced by the other parties for taking money from Westmjnster and spending it on the poorest people in Britain I think it would be a net win for them with the public even if it's dishonest
Its not just a case of being denounced. Its a case of being prosecuted. I am sure that Farage might have mixed feelings about the party's only MP being done for fraud. It might look bad on the party but at least from his point of view he would be rid of (yet another) possible challenger to his position.
I listened to an interesting, entertaining and honest interview with Romano Prodi on R5L this morning.
EU is heading for federalism with a European army and a European foreign policy. Cameron will get the square root of b*gger all in concessions. Immigration from Africa inevitable.
Peter Allen surprised by his candour.
I suspect he won't be getting more invites from the media this side of the referendum.
Utterly heartbreaking and infuriating. And a reminder to anyone who needs reminding of why we must ensure that such a barbaric ideology is not allowed to spread further or to gain any more purchase on people here.
If I were Carswell, I'd reply with "Well, I might be one, but Nigel has neither the warmth or the depth to be one"
The money is in fact the Mguffin here. The real story is how different people are reacting to the situation and the can of worms it has prised open.
I agree with that completely. On the narrow point of principle that's being argued about, I have a lot of sympathy with Nigel Farage. But it's quite apparent that it is merely a pretext for a power play between two factions.
Many people I have heard discuss the electoral system think that at some stage FPTP will be changed to a version of PR. But it may take a long time.
@RodCrosby has mentioned on here before that there were quiet advanced proposals for a move to STV in the second quarter of the 20th century, but the moment passed.
It's possible that the AV referendum will prove to be the nearest we come this time around to ditching FPTP, before two-party politics reasserts itself and the question goes away.
The only unanswered question is which two parties they will be...
Conservatives and Liberals (Lamb) I hope
EU referendum may have a huge effect though...
Probably CON and Labour, as ever. UKIP though hmm...
It is not vanity to believe that a political party should be more than a single adored party leader, with everyone else mere footsoldiers to do his bidding. I actually find it surprising that a UKIP supporter would articulate this as a vision as it sounds more like the criticism of an opponent. No effective organisation in the world runs like this: not in government, not in business, not in the social sector. All good leaders need to have an effective team around them who have input that is listened to and who feel they are part of the decision making process. If this is the way Douglas Carswell, a highly capable parliamentarian is treated, I can't imagine you'll win a single further defection. It seems like many are putting a personality cult around Farage above the interests of the party.
And while I did not vote for UKIP, I say this as someone that is highly sympathetic, as I feel the policy arguments they make are often very strong. This has caused me to struggle to find arguments to persuade UKIP-waiverers to vote Conservative, but Farage is giving me a lot of fresh ammunition right now.
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
In general yes, but the Short Money is *specifically* to assist the parliamentary party in holding the government to account: to use it for other purposes would be dishonest.
You could probably stretch it to fund a policy team focused on developing a Life After Out platform, but tough to go much beyond that
If Ukip were denounced by the other parties for taking money from Westmjnster and spending it on the poorest people in Britain I think it would be a net win for them with the public even if it's dishonest
Its not just a case of being denounced. Its a case of being prosecuted. I am sure that Farage might have mixed feelings about the party's only MP being done for fraud. It might look bad on the party but at least from his point of view he would be rid of (yet another) possible challenger to his position.
Would Farage be that bothered? There have been enough controversies over his own 'expenses', allowances, whatever, over the years. Huge sums towards "running machines" and "banks of computers" in rent free sheds. Whatever happened to the audit he promised in 2014?
Richard out of curiosity what do you think the scenarios for Eurosceptics are following the referendum?
I currently see a few scenarios 1: Out wins. We leave, its over. There is no way there'd be a second vote to stay in. 2: England votes out, but Scotland votes in. Constitutional havoc ensues regardless of what the total is. 3: Narrow in vote. Eurosceptics keep pushing for "one more push" SNP style. 4: A significant in victory, say anything over 60%. This is what I see as most likely, but not sure how eurosceptics would respond?
If there's a significant in victory, would you consider the matter resolved for now, or would you keep agitating for out straight away?
I wouldn't agitate for Out straight away if there had been a big In victory. It would be pointless.
I would continue to campaign for us to leave and would wait for the inevitable EU moves to closer Union and the realisation that Cameron had got nothing substantial from his renegotiatin as it all falls apart over the following few years.
I would probably also watch and enjoy the sight of the Tory party fracturing as Cameron becomes regarded as a copy of Heath.
Thanks for the response. I respect you and that's what I thought you might say, just wanted to see.
I think for the same sensible reason you won't agaitate the Tory party won't fracture either. I suspect anyone who was going to leave would have left already by now, those who are still in the party may care as passionately for wanting to leave as you do but if that's not on the table then it'd be better to concentrate on other priorities for now and wait for a better time to bring this back up.
The exception would be if Cameron attempted to whip people into campaigning for In. That would be suicide.
Ukip need a leadership election. They're keen on a referendum so they need one on Farage. I suspect it will be along the lines of "Well done, thou good and faithful servant; the door's over there."
Then they can go back to pretending to be bestest mates just like the other parties.
Will UKIP still exist in May 2020 ? Whatever the result of any EU referendum, perhaps UKIP may not be seen as a party that is relevant. The electoral system is against them, as they have 1 MP after receiving 3 million votes. This is unlikely to change before May 2020. I doubt that the Tories will go back to reducing the number of MP's but will go ahead with the standard boundary review. The new boundaries are not likely to make any difference.
I think the UK electorate made a massive mistake in giving the Tories a small majority, with only slightly more than one third of the votes.
But presumably you were OK with them giving Labour a much bigger majority in 2005 with fewer votes than Cameron just got?
Hmm I think if Carswell and Lamb formed a National Liberal party I'd join tommorow, but I'm not a target voter that's going to win anything.
Reminds me of the 'Alternative History' that I read on LDV a while ago - basically along the lines that instead of going UKIP, Carswell went Independant (National Liberal). Was then followed by Jeremy Browne doing the same thing...
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
In general yes, but the Short Money is *specifically* to assist the parliamentary party in holding the government to account: to use it for other purposes would be dishonest.
You could probably stretch it to fund a policy team focused on developing a Life After Out platform, but tough to go much beyond that
If Ukip were denounced by the other parties for taking money from Westmjnster and spending it on the poorest people in Britain I think it would be a net win for them with the public even if it's dishonest
Its more than dishonest, its called corruption.
Its also pretty small change even compared to Council spending so the cost of being a criminal won't achieve much development.
Someone needs to set up the Independence Party of the United Kingdom at this rate.
Hmm that would be IPUK Not great..
The An Independence from Europe Party?
We heard a lot about AIFE stealing lots of UKIP votes last year. I suggest those who still hold to that theory take a look at the result in Solihull this year.
Richard out of curiosity what do you think the scenarios for Eurosceptics are following the referendum?
I currently see a few scenarios 1: Out wins. We leave, its over. There is no way there'd be a second vote to stay in. 2: England votes out, but Scotland votes in. Constitutional havoc ensues regardless of what the total is. 3: Narrow in vote. Eurosceptics keep pushing for "one more push" SNP style. 4: A significant in victory, say anything over 60%. This is what I see as most likely, but not sure how eurosceptics would respond?
If there's a significant in victory, would you consider the matter resolved for now, or would you keep agitating for out straight away?
I wouldn't agitate for Out straight away if there had been a big In victory. It would be pointless.
I would continue to campaign for us to leave and would wait for the inevitable EU moves to closer Union and the realisation that Cameron had got nothing substantial from his renegotiatin as it all falls apart over the following few years.
I would probably also watch and enjoy the sight of the Tory party fracturing as Cameron becomes regarded as a copy of Heath.
Thanks for the response. I respect you and that's what I thought you might say, just wanted to see.
I think for the same sensible reason you won't agaitate the Tory party won't fracture either. I suspect anyone who was going to leave would have left already by now, those who are still in the party may care as passionately for wanting to leave as you do but if that's not on the table then it'd be better to concentrate on other priorities for now and wait for a better time to bring this back up.
The exception would be if Cameron attempted to whip people into campaigning for In. That would be suicide.
Cameron needs to allow cabinet members to make their own arguments. If he forces resignations in the name of collective responsibility, it will fracture the party into huge recriminations.
It is not vanity to believe that a political party should be more than a single adored party leader, with everyone else mere footsoldiers to do his bidding. I actually find it surprising that a UKIP supporter would articulate this as a vision as it sounds more like the criticism of an opponent. No effective organisation in the world runs like this: not in government, not in business, not in the social sector. All good leaders need to have an effective team around them who have input that is listened to and who feel they are part of the decision making process. If this is the way Douglas Carswell, a highly capable parliamentarian is treated, I can't imagine you'll win a single further defection. It seems like many are putting a personality cult around Farage above the interests of the party.
And while I did not vote for UKIP, I say this as someone that is highly sympathetic, as I feel the policy arguments they make are often very strong. This has caused me to struggle to find arguments to persuade UKIP-waiverers to vote Conservative, but Farage is giving me a lot of fresh ammunition right now.
It's the truth.. I don't know whether it is a criticism or not but the fact is that most Ukip voters will only have heard of Farage. Yesterday my mate called Carswell 'Carslake' and my my dad called him 'Carsdale'... And he is by far the 2nd most famous kipper
Everyone's entitled to their view, none if it will make any difference anyway. But political geeks think Carswell is a genius and Farage a rabble rouser, well big deal
As I say I like both but to imagine that Ukips success, and 13% of the vote is a big success as us the euro win, I was possible without Farage is crazy. Take any other kipper out of the picture and it would still have happened
Oh, and Nigel Farage is on Question Time tonight. That should be enjoyable.
No five-letter words, Nigel
I'm actually struggling to think of any five-letter insults. Four and six letter insults I can think of plenty but the only five letter insult that comes to mind is "lefty".
Oh, and Nigel Farage is on Question Time tonight. That should be enjoyable.
No five-letter words, Nigel
I'm actually struggling to think of any five-letter insults. Four and six letter insults I can think of plenty but the only five letter insult that comes to mind is "lefty".
If carswell resigns from UKIP surely by his own code, he should need to step down and have a by-election, after he did that when he resigned from the Tories.
UKIP should do the honourable thing and withdraw the whip. Save the cost of a by election and prove they care about the misuse of public money.
Cameron needs to allow cabinet members to make their own arguments. If he forces resignations in the name of collective responsibility, it will fracture the party into huge recriminations.
I think the smart play for Brexit-minded Cabinet ministers to make would be to agree to collective responsibility on the condition that the decision is made collectively.
That's their best chance of having the government recommend an OUT vote, which would be their best chance of winning the referendum. Anything else is simply going through the motions in the face of a Cameron recommendation for IN.
@PickardJE: Arron Banks, Ukip mega-donor, tells @robinbrant that Patrick O'Flynn was "weak performer" in the election.
Are UKIP going to split?
Nige gets to keep the name, Carswell gets to keep the seat and the cash...
It's similar to the various 80's pop groups who fell out with each other, split and reformed as separate bands in the 21st century to raise a bit of cash towards their retirement.
There could be 'Carswell's UKIP', and 'Farage's UKIP' both appearing this Summer at the Pavillion Theatre, Cromer but on different dates.
It is not vanity to believe that a political party should be more than a single adored party leader, with everyone else mere footsoldiers to do his bidding. I actually find it surprising that a UKIP supporter would articulate this as a vision as it sounds more like the criticism of an opponent. No effective organisation in the world runs like this: not in government, not in business, not in the social sector. All good leaders need to have an effective team around them who have input that is listened to and who feel they are part of the decision making process. If this is the way Douglas Carswell, a highly capable parliamentarian is treated, I can't imagine you'll win a single further defection. It seems like many are putting a personality cult around Farage above the interests of the party.
And while I did not vote for UKIP, I say this as someone that is highly sympathetic, as I feel the policy arguments they make are often very strong. This has caused me to struggle to find arguments to persuade UKIP-waiverers to vote Conservative, but Farage is giving me a lot of fresh ammunition right now.
It's the truth.. I don't know whether it is a criticism or not but the fact is that most Ukip voters will only have heard of Farage. Yesterday my mate called Carswell 'Carslake' and my my dad called him 'Carsdale'... And he is by far the 2nd most famous kipper
Everyone's entitled to their view, none if it will make any difference anyway. But political geeks think Carswell is a genius and Farage a rabble rouser, well big deal
As I say I like both but to imagine that Ukips success, and 13% of the vote is a big success as us the euro win, I was possible without Farage is crazy. Take any other kipper out of the picture and it would still have happened
Take Farage out of the picture and the Lib Dems would still have collapsed, the BNP would still have collapsed and there would still be protest voters looking for a new home.
@PickardJE: Arron Banks, Ukip mega-donor, tells @robinbrant that Patrick O'Flynn was "weak performer" in the election.
Are UKIP going to split?
Nige gets to keep the name, Carswell gets to keep the seat and the cash...
It's similar to the various 80's pop groups who fell out with each other, split and reformed as separate bands in the 21st century to raise a bit of cash towards their retirement.
There could be 'Carswell's UKIP', and 'Farage's UKIP' both appearing this Summer at the Pavillion Theatre, Cromer but on different dates.
Comments
hypocritical and sanctimonious talk, typically of a moral, religious, or political nature.
As for the short money, I thought it was an MPs job to improve the life of his constituents? And if they spend money on staff that make that more likely who are we to sniff? I thought Carswell wanted 'change' and he thinks the people if clacton voted for him because they did too. So ask them if they'd prefer change to political procedure or change to the awful conditions they live in and then decide
Short money is there to support a party's MPs in their parliamentary work. Full Stop.
Senior allies of @Nigel_Farage using both four & five letter words - in private - to describe @oflynnmep and @DouglasCarswell
Blimey, '5' letter words now! - this is fast becoming seriously entertaining.
You could probably stretch it to fund a policy team focused on developing a Life After Out platform, but tough to go much beyond that
Surely he needs a break? The rest of us do! (from him)
UKIP appear unable to organise a piss up in a local brewery let alone their own party, the thought that around 4 million brave souls have confidence in this crew is interesting. UKIP keep tripping over their own feet and looking ridiculous, the MSM don't even need to make up or exaggerate stories about them. I think they should give David Coburn a try as party leader !!
He came back barely 18 months later.
Last time, he just needed a rub. Perhaps he needs the same this time too.
What this tells me (along with his rather thin skin to jokes made at his expense) is that Farage is actually quite a sensitive and self-centred guy and isn't very good at managing people.
If he were, he wouldn't have these difficulties and would have the self-awareness to recognise where his efforts were effective and appreciated, and where they were not.
If he seems more irritable than usual and decides to just lazily take swipes at the BBC audience any time he is not getting applause, that'll be a sign he's under too much stress. I don't know what was wrong with his initial plan of taking a few months and then maybe standing again for leader anyway - given he said that, he needn't have withdrawn his resignation even if the party asked for it, as he wait things out, say he would reflect on what they said and could claim their comments swayed him to come back as he still had work to do. Doing it so quickly begs the question why bother at all - didn't they tell him they would not accept his resignation before he did it?
“Yes, great to meet you, see you, I mean, you know,” the Labour leader said like a child with a Ritalin problem.
http://nicktyrone.com/my-one-on-ones-with-ed-miliband-the-gossipy-stuff-ive-kept-back-for-just-such-an-occasion/
I won't apologise for being a Farage fan. He is the main reason Ukip got 13% not 3% and as we see in football when a popular long standing manager of a small mid table club is deemed to have 'taken the team as far a he could' a new guy with fresh ideas comes in and usually gets them relegated
@johnpmcdermott: Manchester: A New Order. Given Osborne announcement today, here's a re-up for my @FTMag piece on city devolution -- http://t.co/lyQqKTKxhj
As I said, they need to hold firm now and not tear themselves to pieces - if they can manage that, whoever wins this internal battle, they still have potential in the years ahead, but they need to get a grip.
I would continue to campaign for us to leave and would wait for the inevitable EU moves to closer Union and the realisation that Cameron had got nothing substantial from his renegotiatin as it all falls apart over the following few years.
I would probably also watch and enjoy the sight of the Tory party fracturing as Cameron becomes regarded as a copy of Heath.
Will there be any opposition left by the time Parliament convenes next week?
No one is talking about Nigel's leadership - @UKIP spokesman
norman smith @BBCNormanS 2m2 minutes ago
Nigel Farage is clearly tired and stressed and its time for him to move over - former @UKIP MEP Godfrey Bloom
This is almost comic.
The people who vote Ukip love him and it is vain of the others in the party to imagine they are much more than footsoldiers. I know we have all had equality stuffed down out throats since school but this is so obvious I can't believe it needs saying
It's all going to end in tears.
We need less pork barrel politics, not more. Which is why we need to get rid of Scotland.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9528312/inside-the-milibunker-the-last-days-of-ed-did-ed-miliband-sacrifice-ed-balls/
"So you're from Southampton? Does Basra remind you of home?"
"It's dirty, smelly and people are trying to kill us on the streets. More like Portsmouth, to be honest"
*That's* what this is about, not the money per se
It's possible that the AV referendum will prove to be the nearest we come this time around to ditching FPTP, before two-party politics reasserts itself and the question goes away.
1. Do you realise you just typed that?
2. Who is "we" ?
3. What do you mean by "get rid of" ?
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/harriet-harman-backs-jim-murphy-to-stay-as-leader-1-3772078
SLAB and Murphy seem intent on condemning themselves to a death of a thousand cuts, as this is playing out publicly, SLAB are quickly losing any remaining non-core support. At this rate they'll be level pegging with SCUP at 15-17%, with the % falling year by year as their loyal older supporters exit stage left.
EU is heading for federalism with a European army and a European foreign policy. Cameron will get the square root of b*gger all in concessions. Immigration from Africa inevitable.
Peter Allen surprised by his candour.
I suspect he won't be getting more invites from the media this side of the referendum.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05rcr7n/this-world-kill-the-christians
A reminder of what true barbarism means.
Utterly heartbreaking and infuriating. And a reminder to anyone who needs reminding of why we must ensure that such a barbaric ideology is not allowed to spread further or to gain any more purchase on people here.
TMS commentator Alan Gibson: "This is Cunis at the Vauxhall End. Cunis, a funny sort of name: neither one thing nor the other."
EU referendum may have a huge effect though...
Probably CON and Labour, as ever. UKIP though hmm...
It is not vanity to believe that a political party should be more than a single adored party leader, with everyone else mere footsoldiers to do his bidding. I actually find it surprising that a UKIP supporter would articulate this as a vision as it sounds more like the criticism of an opponent. No effective organisation in the world runs like this: not in government, not in business, not in the social sector. All good leaders need to have an effective team around them who have input that is listened to and who feel they are part of the decision making process. If this is the way Douglas Carswell, a highly capable parliamentarian is treated, I can't imagine you'll win a single further defection. It seems like many are putting a personality cult around Farage above the interests of the party.
And while I did not vote for UKIP, I say this as someone that is highly sympathetic, as I feel the policy arguments they make are often very strong. This has caused me to struggle to find arguments to persuade UKIP-waiverers to vote Conservative, but Farage is giving me a lot of fresh ammunition right now.
I think for the same sensible reason you won't agaitate the Tory party won't fracture either. I suspect anyone who was going to leave would have left already by now, those who are still in the party may care as passionately for wanting to leave as you do but if that's not on the table then it'd be better to concentrate on other priorities for now and wait for a better time to bring this back up.
The exception would be if Cameron attempted to whip people into campaigning for In. That would be suicide.
Ukip need a leadership election. They're keen on a referendum so they need one on Farage. I suspect it will be along the lines of "Well done, thou good and faithful servant; the door's over there."
Then they can go back to pretending to be bestest mates just like the other parties.
Its also pretty small change even compared to Council spending so the cost of being a criminal won't achieve much development.
Everyone's entitled to their view, none if it will make any difference anyway. But political geeks think Carswell is a genius and Farage a rabble rouser, well big deal
As I say I like both but to imagine that Ukips success, and 13% of the vote is a big success as us the euro win, I was possible without Farage is crazy. Take any other kipper out of the picture and it would still have happened
Are UKIP going to split?
Nige gets to keep the name, Carswell gets to keep the seat and the cash...
Faraxit ?
Nigexit ?
That's their best chance of having the government recommend an OUT vote, which would be their best chance of winning the referendum. Anything else is simply going through the motions in the face of a Cameron recommendation for IN.
There could be 'Carswell's UKIP', and 'Farage's UKIP' both appearing this Summer at the Pavillion Theatre, Cromer but on different dates.