I struggle to understand just where UKIP are aiming at the moment.
I'd suggest it's a lot simpler than that: there's a gap in the electoral market for a franchise like UKIP, therefore UKIP exists. UKIP didn't spring spontaneously into being first and then convert a few people into UKIPpers. UKIP came into being because there are people who'll support it.
It's no different from there being a market niche for The Daily Mirror and another for The Sun. You do not need to support the views or attitudes espoused by either paper in order to see the business case for them. If you think like a Mirror reader, you will make a better fist of producing a newspaper for Mirror readers, perhaps.
At bottom I doubt there are that many pols who are that deeply wedded to their proclaimed views. You'd think it would be close to 100% of them, if they can be bothered to stand for Parliament. Based on the defection rate between them I suspect something in the 30% would in fact be closer. The other 70% could swap parties without much trouble.
This seem especially likely in the case of no-mark pols who've homed in on jobs where a record of total non-achievement is acceptable, such as all MEPs of all parties.
As such UKIP is a wholly Establishment party and Farage in particular is a very traditional Establishment figure.
For a brand to succeed it has to be sufficiently distinct from its competitors to gain a foothold in the market. The Mirror generally targets working class left of centre voters, the Sun generally targetted working class right of centre voters. There are key differences in their narratives. Above I described what I believe are the distinct characteristics of UKIP which were common ground for both libertarians and traditional conservative together that's all. There are other characteristics that attract working class voters. Clearly there is a market for it else they would not have survived 20 years or be polling 15% in the polls and equally if the Conservatives and Labour had looked after their voters better there would have been no room for UKIP but all that's water under the bridge now. UKIP is here and it is what it is.
As for UKIP being an establishment party yes in the sense that it does believe in Government and Parliament and the Monarchy. What it doesn't believe in is the current political class and the political parties that that class belongs to and the current structure of government and parliament. After all UKIP are not anarchists (they vote Green)........
I have to say that the Prime Minister has plunged downwards yesterday in the opinion of many people.It was distinctly un-prime minesterial of him to refer to the leader of the opposition as 'despicable.' This may suit him and his friends but it certainly won't do for anyone who values honour and decency.
Anyone who values honour and decency will agree that calling innocent and principled people 'dodgy' is indeed despicable.
Of the PM and the Leader of the Opposition, there is only one who is decent, and it's not Ed Miliband.
Do you actually really believe that?
Pretty common view I'd say. I mean, only one of them dodged IHT, stitched up his brother, and married his girlfriend for political advantage.
I have to say that the Prime Minister has plunged downwards yesterday in the opinion of many people.It was distinctly un-prime minesterial of him to refer to the leader of the opposition as 'despicable.' This may suit him and his friends but it certainly won't do for anyone who values honour and decency.
But if Ed is Despicable Me, it did allow us all to think of the rest of the Shadow Cabinet as his Minions....
A simple average of this week's 8 polls gives Conservative 33.6%, to Labour 32.7%.
But if Labour has a lead in tonight;s YouGov and tomorrow's Populus poll it will be virtually "neck and neck" still.
Must admit I did think the Tories had finally pulled away this week but looks like nothing has changed really.
Tick. Tock.
This pattern of relatively good Conservative results from Sunday to Tuesday, followed by relatively good Labour results fro the rest of the week is a curious one.
Probably just one of those statistical quirks that crop up sometimes, but just in case is it too late for the Coalition to move polling day to Sunday or Monday?
Excellent speech in the HoC by Rory Stewart, Chair of the Defence Select Committee, on defence spending. An area that sadly the Coalition has not covered itself in glory.
I have to say that the Prime Minister has plunged downwards yesterday in the opinion of many people.It was distinctly un-prime minesterial of him to refer to the leader of the opposition as 'despicable.' This may suit him and his friends but it certainly won't do for anyone who values honour and decency.
But if Ed is Despicable Me, it did allow us all to think of the rest of the Shadow Cabinet as his Minions....
Just imagine the fun the Minions would have with Ed Balls' surname
@Ed_Miliband: I think Nigel Farage's comments today are wrong, divisive and dangerous. The laws we have on equality represent our values as a country.
@Nigel_Farage: .@Ed_Miliband The laws don't represent these values, Ed. The British people do. We believe in Britain. You believe in bureaucracy.
'Asked whether there would be a law against discrimination on the grounds of race or colour under Ukip, Farage added: “No … ' He wants to withdraw the current laws on racial discrimination. His excuses for that are irrelevant. He is blowing out a loud and clear dog whistle to every racist in the country. I very much hope that amounts to a lot less than 14% of the electorate.
It has clearly not got anything to do with libertarianism - that is just a sick joke. Farage blows out these dog whistles because he has realised he can get away with it and there are votes in it.
@Ed_Miliband: I think Nigel Farage's comments today are wrong, divisive and dangerous. The laws we have on equality represent our values as a country.
@Nigel_Farage: .@Ed_Miliband The laws don't represent these values, Ed. The British people do. We believe in Britain. You believe in bureaucracy.
'Asked whether there would be a law against discrimination on the grounds of race or colour under Ukip, Farage added: “No … ' He wants to withdraw the current laws on racial discrimination. His excuses for that are irrelevant. He is blowing out a loud and clear dog whistle to every racist in the country. I very much hope that amounts to a lot less than 14% of the electorate.
It has clearly not got anything to do with libertarianism - that is just a sick joke. Farage blows out these dog whistles because he has realised he can get away with it and there are votes in it.
I've read contributors to this site arguing for the repeal of laws against discrimination. I certainly wouldn't call them racists, or people who pander to racists.
Very nice visualisation. And yet, as discussed, the Tories are 1.55 for most seats and anywhere between about 10 & 22 seats ahead on various lines.
Which, to my mind, implies that the constituency prices are stale. There's value in backing the Tories in constituencies [coupled with Labour on the outright, if you don't fully trust the plunge to 1.55].
How does a week get more Labour the nearer it gets to the weekend? Surely it doesn't begin to lose its work ethic the nearer it gets to Friday, throwing around money in a pissed party mood - does it?
Labour - the party of taking a piss in a phone box at 3.00 am Saturday morning, kebab in hand....
For a brand to succeed it has to be sufficiently distinct from its competitors to gain a foothold in the market. The Mirror generally targets working class left of centre voters, the Sun generally targetted working class right of centre voters. There are key differences in their narratives. Above I described what I believe are the distinct characteristics of UKIP which were common ground for both libertarians and traditional conservative together thats all. There are other characteristics that attract working class voters.Clearly there is a market for it else they would not have survived 20 years or be polling 15% in the polls and equally if the Conservatives and Labour had looked after their voters better there would have been no room for UKIP but all thats water under the bridge now. UKIP is here and it is what it is
UKIP is at bottom a loony fringe party preoccupied with Yerp and immigration. It prospered to the extent it has because, fortunately for its neuroses, Labour was in power for most of the last 20 years. That Labour administration lost control of immigration, denied it, and was perceived as pandering to immigrants by enough people that UKIP got decent traction in the late 90s and the 00s.
This panic about race and immigration is a well-observed consequence of previous episodes of Labour government, if you look at the 1970s and the rise of the National Front followed by its complete disappearance when the Tories were in.
Your hypothesis may be right; there may be some meta-strain of rightist libertarian (etc) thinking into which UKIP has tapped, to intellectual and polling advantage. I think my theory - that they were around when Labour fomented racism through policies that are impossible to reverse - is no less likely, however, and also has the advantage of explaining why an "insurgent" party should have such a solidly Establishment figurehead as its leader.
Very nice visualisation. And yet, as discussed, the Tories are 1.55 for most seats and anywhere between about 10 & 22 seats ahead on various lines.
Which, to my mind, implies that the constituency prices are stale. There's value in backing the Tories in constituencies [coupled with Labour on the outright, if you don't fully trust the plunge to 1.55].
Apparently these are live bookies prices (not sure which ones) so they should change over time.
@Ed_Miliband: I think Nigel Farage's comments today are wrong, divisive and dangerous. The laws we have on equality represent our values as a country.
@Nigel_Farage: .@Ed_Miliband The laws don't represent these values, Ed. The British people do. We believe in Britain. You believe in bureaucracy.
'Asked whether there would be a law against discrimination on the grounds of race or colour under Ukip, Farage added: “No … ' He wants to withdraw the current laws on racial discrimination. His excuses for that are irrelevant. He is blowing out a loud and clear dog whistle to every racist in the country. I very much hope that amounts to a lot less than 14% of the electorate.
It has clearly not got anything to do with libertarianism - that is just a sick joke. Farage blows out these dog whistles because he has realised he can get away with it and there are votes in it.
Do you get off on accusing people of being rascists because reading your comments here it seem to be your favourite pastime? Its almost all you ever do?
Excellent speech in the HoC by Rory Stewart, Chair of the Defence Select Committee, on defence spending. An area that sadly the Coalition has not covered itself in glory.
Glad to hear that the Home Service is still broadcasting parliament on the wireless.
A simple average of this week's 8 polls gives Conservative 33.6%, to Labour 32.7%.
But if Labour has a lead in tonight;s YouGov and tomorrow's Populus poll it will be virtually "neck and neck" still.
Must admit I did think the Tories had finally pulled away this week but looks like nothing has changed really.
Tick. Tock.
My 20-poll average has the Tories 0.4% ahead, I can't imagine this will make much difference. IIRC it's a 1% reduction in the Labour lead since the last Ipsos so in the same direction of travel.
I do not see the laws against racial discrimination as a bureaucratic inconvenience.
I do see Nigel Farage as a publicity-seeking narcissist who doesn't care who gets to suffer, so long as he's the centre of attention.
I tend to agree, and I also reckon he has worked out that proposing to repeal laws against race discrimination will not cost him one vote he hasn't already lost, but may pick him up a few waverers he hasn't yet won over.
Whether these remarks reflect his actual views is impossible to say.
I see that Mike Smithson is playing catchup. Below is what I wrote early this morning and if you read what Farage said carefully and fairly, you will see his comments are the antitheses of racist. Only bigots of the leftist persuasion find it so.
Still can't stay to debate, very busy today.
MikeK Posts: 5,573 9:23AM The story and proper thread this morning is Nigel Farage's brilliant counter-punch, even if unintended:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31846453 UKIP would scrap much of the legislation designed to prevent racial discrimination in work, party leader Nigel Farage has said.
But can't stay and debate - things to do - will be back by tea-time. Tarrah!
A simple average of this week's 8 polls gives Conservative 33.6%, to Labour 32.7%.
But if Labour has a lead in tonight;s YouGov and tomorrow's Populus poll it will be virtually "neck and neck" still.
Must admit I did think the Tories had finally pulled away this week but looks like nothing has changed really.
Tick. Tock.
This pattern of relatively good Conservative results from Sunday to Tuesday, followed by relatively good Labour results fro the rest of the week is a curious one.
Probably just one of those statistical quirks that crop up sometimes, but just in case is it too late for the Coalition to move polling day to Sunday or Monday?
Wasn't the trend reversed a while back? Better Con polls as the week wore on?
A simple average of this week's 8 polls gives Conservative 33.6%, to Labour 32.7%.
But if Labour has a lead in tonight;s YouGov and tomorrow's Populus poll it will be virtually "neck and neck" still.
Must admit I did think the Tories had finally pulled away this week but looks like nothing has changed really.
Tick. Tock.
My 20-poll average has the Tories 0.4% ahead, I can't imagine this will make much difference. IIRC it's a 1% reduction in the Labour lead since the last Ipsos so in the same direction of travel.
The average doesn't look like it's travelling very fast at all though.
Very nice visualisation. And yet, as discussed, the Tories are 1.55 for most seats and anywhere between about 10 & 22 seats ahead on various lines.
Which, to my mind, implies that the constituency prices are stale. There's value in backing the Tories in constituencies [coupled with Labour on the outright, if you don't fully trust the plunge to 1.55].
Apparently these are live bookies prices (not sure which ones) so they should change over time.
Excellent speech in the HoC by Rory Stewart, Chair of the Defence Select Committee, on defence spending. An area that sadly the Coalition has not covered itself in glory.
Glad to hear that the Home Service is still broadcasting parliament on the wireless.
I have no truck with these new fangled modern wireless devices and have received reports via semaphore having recently upgraded from despatch rider.
I have to say that the Prime Minister has plunged downwards yesterday in the opinion of many people.It was distinctly un-prime minesterial of him to refer to the leader of the opposition as 'despicable.' This may suit him and his friends but it certainly won't do for anyone who values honour and decency.
Anyone who values honour and decency will agree that calling innocent and principled people 'dodgy' is indeed despicable.
Of the PM and the Leader of the Opposition, there is only one who is decent, and it's not Ed Miliband.
Do you actually really believe that?
Yes, sadly I do. I used to think that Ed was decent but naive, but I'm afraid his behaviour over a range of issues, and in particular his personal attacks on the integrity of a whole range of people he wants to demonise, have led me reluctantly to the conclusion that he is a pretty nasty piece of work.
For a brand to succeed it has to be sufficiently distinct from its competitors to gain a foothold in the market. The Mirror generally targets working class left of centre voters, the Sun generally targetted working class right of centre voters. There are key differences in their narratives. Above I described what I believe are the distinct characteristics of UKIP which were common ground for both libertarians and traditional conservative together thats all. There are other characteristics that attract working class voters.Clearly there is a market for it else they would not have survived 20 years or be polling 15% in the polls and equally if the Conservatives and Labour had looked after their voters better there would have been no room for UKIP but all thats water under the bridge now. UKIP is here and it is what it is
UKIP is at bottom a loony fringe party preoccupied with Yerp and immigration. It prospered to the extent it has because, fortunately for its neuroses, Labour was in power for most of the last 20 years. That Labour administration lost control of immigration, denied it, and was perceived as pandering to immigrants by enough people that UKIP got decent traction in the late 90s and the 00s.
This panic about race and immigration is a well-observed consequence of previous episodes of Labour government, if you look at the 1970s and the rise of the National Front followed by its complete disappearance when the Tories were in.
Your hypothesis may be right; there may be some meta-strain of rightist libertarian (etc) thinking into which UKIP has tapped, to intellectual and polling advantage. I think my theory - that they were around when Labour fomented racism through policies that are impossible to reverse - is no less likely, however, and also has the advantage of explaining why an "insurgent" party should have such a solidly Establishment figurehead as its leader.
You are wrong simply because in your eyes race and immigration are inherently linked. They are not and until you learn to address these issues separately then there is little point discussing the issue with you.
A simple average of this week's 8 polls gives Conservative 33.6%, to Labour 32.7%.
But if Labour has a lead in tonight;s YouGov and tomorrow's Populus poll it will be virtually "neck and neck" still.
Must admit I did think the Tories had finally pulled away this week but looks like nothing has changed really.
Tick. Tock.
This pattern of relatively good Conservative results from Sunday to Tuesday, followed by relatively good Labour results fro the rest of the week is a curious one.
Good job the election is on a Thursday when the populace are looking forward to a brighter future!
A simple average of this week's 8 polls gives Conservative 33.6%, to Labour 32.7%.
But if Labour has a lead in tonight;s YouGov and tomorrow's Populus poll it will be virtually "neck and neck" still.
Must admit I did think the Tories had finally pulled away this week but looks like nothing has changed really.
Tick. Tock.
This pattern of relatively good Conservative results from Sunday to Tuesday, followed by relatively good Labour results fro the rest of the week is a curious one.
Good job the election is on a Thursday when the populace are looking forward to a brighter future!
But, many people will have already voted before Thursday. But, like others, I think it's just one of those odd statistical quirks.
I don't think Labour will match last Thursday's 4% lead with Yougov, tonight, which would shift the average a bit towards the Tories.
When politicians say Farage's remarks are 'dangerous' and 'disturbing' they presumably mean 'dangerously potentially popular'.....'disturbingly vote attracting...'
It's an interesting article and I do think he has a point. But I'm not sure a lot of those people should really be considered the left. Many of them may claim to be on the left, but they don't stand for the redistribution of wealth or seem to be too exorcised by the behaviour of the corporate or financial establishment that would probably shock someone like Harold McMillan.
@Ed_Miliband: I think Nigel Farage's comments today are wrong, divisive and dangerous. The laws we have on equality represent our values as a country.
@Nigel_Farage: .@Ed_Miliband The laws don't represent these values, Ed. The British people do. We believe in Britain. You believe in bureaucracy.
'Asked whether there would be a law against discrimination on the grounds of race or colour under Ukip, Farage added: “No … ' He wants to withdraw the current laws on racial discrimination. His excuses for that are irrelevant. He is blowing out a loud and clear dog whistle to every racist in the country. I very much hope that amounts to a lot less than 14% of the electorate.
It has clearly not got anything to do with libertarianism - that is just a sick joke. Farage blows out these dog whistles because he has realised he can get away with it and there are votes in it.
We have had an epidemic of child-rape which would not have occurred but for the legislation on racial discrimination. There are few or no moral absolutes, and if there are any, anti-racism isn't one of them.
I have to say that the Prime Minister has plunged downwards yesterday in the opinion of many people.It was distinctly un-prime minesterial of him to refer to the leader of the opposition as 'despicable.' This may suit him and his friends but it certainly won't do for anyone who values honour and decency.
Anyone who values honour and decency will agree that calling innocent and principled people 'dodgy' is indeed despicable.
Of the PM and the Leader of the Opposition, there is only one who is decent, and it's not Ed Miliband.
Do you actually really believe that?
Yes, sadly I do. I used to think that Ed was decent but naive, but I'm afraid his behaviour over a range of issues, and in particular his personal attacks on the integrity of a whole range of people he wants to demonise, have led me reluctantly to the conclusion that he is a pretty nasty piece of work.
All those years, stuck in an office with Balls, Brown and McBride. It must wear off on you after a while.
I see that Fargle has again successfully derailed the entire existing media political narrative again, got the whole MSM, twitterati, online uk political world and just about everyone here discussing him and his parties policies and suceeded in provoking the liberal left into paroxyms of outrage thus establishing more clear purple water between him and liblabcon.
@Ed_Miliband: I think Nigel Farage's comments today are wrong, divisive and dangerous. The laws we have on equality represent our values as a country.
@Nigel_Farage: .@Ed_Miliband The laws don't represent these values, Ed. The British people do. We believe in Britain. You believe in bureaucracy.
'Asked whether there would be a law against discrimination on the grounds of race or colour under Ukip, Farage added: “No … ' He wants to withdraw the current laws on racial discrimination. His excuses for that are irrelevant. He is blowing out a loud and clear dog whistle to every racist in the country. I very much hope that amounts to a lot less than 14% of the electorate.
It has clearly not got anything to do with libertarianism - that is just a sick joke. Farage blows out these dog whistles because he has realised he can get away with it and there are votes in it.
We have had an epidemic of child-rape which would not have occurred but for the legislation on racial discrimination. There are few or no moral absolutes, and if there are any, anti-racism isn't one of them.
I think I'd say the problem is less with the legislation (who could really justify denying someone a job on the basis of skin colour?) and more with the practices and bureaucratic outlook that the legislation fosters. And, that's true of so much legislation.
I do not see the laws against racial discrimination as a bureaucratic inconvenience.
I do see Nigel Farage as a publicity-seeking narcissist who doesn't care who gets to suffer, so long as he's the centre of attention.
Agree entirely; ditto re the laws on sexual discrimination etc. Equality under the law matters and someone who is discriminated against because of their sex/sexuality/whatever - when that is irrelevant - is not being treated equally under the law.
Going back to such days is not attractive - however much it may be to those who support UKIP.
When politicians say Farage's remarks are 'dangerous' and 'disturbing' they presumably mean 'dangerously potentially popular'.....'disturbingly vote attracting...'
And when they say he is 'ignorant' its because he doesn't understand all the perks and deals they profit out of for pursuing the policies they pursue.
Excellent speech in the HoC by Rory Stewart, Chair of the Defence Select Committee, on defence spending. An area that sadly the Coalition has not covered itself in glory.
Glad to hear that the Home Service is still broadcasting parliament on the wireless.
I have no truck with these new fangled modern wireless devices and have received reports via semaphore having recently upgraded from despatch rider.
Really JackW, how on earth can you see the semaphore flags from your Highland fastness, when we all know how dim your eyesight is? I also think you were parsimonious in paying your dispatch riders, and thats why they have ceased to arrive.
I'll send you the latest Crystal Set, but you'll have to buy your own earphones.
Excellent speech in the HoC by Rory Stewart, Chair of the Defence Select Committee, on defence spending. An area that sadly the Coalition has not covered itself in glory.
Glad to hear that the Home Service is still broadcasting parliament on the wireless.
I have no truck with these new fangled modern wireless devices and have received reports via semaphore having recently upgraded from despatch rider.
Excellent speech in the HoC by Rory Stewart, Chair of the Defence Select Committee, on defence spending. An area that sadly the Coalition has not covered itself in glory.
Glad to hear that the Home Service is still broadcasting parliament on the wireless.
I have no truck with these new fangled modern wireless devices and have received reports via semaphore having recently upgraded from despatch rider.
Really JackW, how on earth can you see the semaphore flags from your Highland fastness, when we all know how dim your eyesight is? I also think you were parsimonious in paying your dispatch riders, and thats why they have ceased to arrive.
I'll send you the latest Crystal Set, but you'll have to buy your own earphones.
Thank you for your concern.
However I should point out that for the purpose of semaphore reading I employ a dedicated FART - Flag Assessment Research Technician at a substantial annual stipend of 50 guineas all found and unlimited fine pies that they may consume.
Excellent speech in the HoC by Rory Stewart, Chair of the Defence Select Committee, on defence spending. An area that sadly the Coalition has not covered itself in glory.
Well said Jack but you forget that the UK is an 'Aid Superpower' now.
That has Putin quaking in his boots.
Long term PBers will remember that there were numerous Conservative supporters here who angrily and repeatedly denounced the defence policies of the last Labour government.
So committed were they to supporting military personnel that they promised to resign from the Conservative party if there was defence cuts.
But they all seemed to lose interest in the issue after May 2010.
I do not see the laws against racial discrimination as a bureaucratic inconvenience.
I do see Nigel Farage as a publicity-seeking narcissist who doesn't care who gets to suffer, so long as he's the centre of attention.
Agree entirely; ditto re the laws on sexual discrimination etc. Equality under the law matters and someone who is discriminated against because of their sex/sexuality/whatever - when that is irrelevant - is not being treated equally under the law.
Going back to such days is not attractive - however much it may be to those who support UKIP.
Your fallacy is thinking that "X is good" materially implies "Legislation stipulating that X shall be the case is good". Lower gas prices and TV debates, for instance. It doesn't work in those cases, and if you think it works for racial discrimination you have to defend the thesis that no child rape took place in Rotherham, or that race relations law played no part at all in facilitating it. Which of those would you like to have a go at?
I would actively consider narrowing down the legislation. Making it clear that the legislation prohibits discrimination (in favour of and against), and that it is specific to characteristics that you are born with and have no control over. Immediately repeal the religious aspects. Be more clear about the nationalities.
'I am voting in Twickenham. I've swapped my vote and will do what the other party to the swap wants.'
Sounds like Cable's in a little local difficulty..
How does this work ?
Is there some Noel Edmonds type hosting an internet site where people around the country offer a vote in one constituency in return for someone else's vote in a different constituency ?
Sadiq Khan thinks the Farage comment "one of the most shocking things I have ever heard."
Is it ... (1) Ludicrous hyperbole (2) The truth. He is a shadow minister of the Crown and has never been outside an echo chamber.
Just in case, it's (2), I suggest he reads 'Wind in the Willows' by Kenneth Grahame where he describes the dangerous stoats and weasels that live in the 'Wildwood'. There, Sadiq Mole 'gets lost in the woods, sees many "evil faces" among the wood's less-welcoming denizens, succumbs to fright and panic and hides.'
The big winner is Channel 4, and the small winner is Ukip.
Most will probably think - what was the fuss about? The Mole types will scream and run for cover but they were never going to vote Ukip anyway
I reckon we've only got two maybe three Ipsos-Mori polls before the General Election.
#CloseToTheBigDay
Will you be up in Pudsey near election time - most important seat in whole of Yorkshire t'world I reckon.
Yup, and a few others, Colne Valley, Dewsbury, Elmet and Rothwell and Keighley.
Edit: and if Mr Dancer tells me that Ed is Balls deep in trouble in Morley & Outwood, I'll be camped there for the duration.
I've heard on the grapevine Dewsbury is lost and Elmet is surely safe. Keighley I reckon turns red (population demographics that sort of thing...) and Colne Valley surely stays blue.
@Ed_Miliband: I think Nigel Farage's comments today are wrong, divisive and dangerous. The laws we have on equality represent our values as a country.
@Nigel_Farage: .@Ed_Miliband The laws don't represent these values, Ed. The British people do. We believe in Britain. You believe in bureaucracy.
'Asked whether there would be a law against discrimination on the grounds of race or colour under Ukip, Farage added: “No … ' He wants to withdraw the current laws on racial discrimination. His excuses for that are irrelevant. He is blowing out a loud and clear dog whistle to every racist in the country. I very much hope that amounts to a lot less than 14% of the electorate.
It has clearly not got anything to do with libertarianism - that is just a sick joke. Farage blows out these dog whistles because he has realised he can get away with it and there are votes in it.
We have had an epidemic of child-rape which would not have occurred but for the legislation on racial discrimination. There are few or no moral absolutes, and if there are any, anti-racism isn't one of them.
I think I'd say the problem is less with the legislation (who could really justify denying someone a job on the basis of skin colour?) and more with the practices and bureaucratic outlook that the legislation fosters. And, that's true of so much legislation.
There was a local authority in the north of England that advertised for jobs in Birmingham based newspapers so it could increase its diversity.
I see that Fargle has again successfully derailed the entire existing media political narrative again, got the whole MSM, twitterati, online uk political world and just about everyone here discussing him and his parties policies and suceeded in provoking the liberal left into paroxyms of outrage thus establishing more clear purple water between him and liblabcon.
'I am voting in Twickenham. I've swapped my vote and will do what the other party to the swap wants.'
Sounds like Cable's in a little local difficulty..
How does this work ?
Is there some Noel Edmonds type hosting an internet site where people around the country offer a vote in one constituency in return for someone else's vote in a different constituency ?
Probably some Facebook group or other social media.
Either way, whatever the shortcomings of our ailing and anachronistic electoral system, it's disgusting and an affront to democracy.
I reckon we've only got two maybe three Ipsos-Mori polls before the General Election.
#CloseToTheBigDay
Will you be up in Pudsey near election time - most important seat in whole of Yorkshire t'world I reckon.
Yup, and a few others, Colne Valley, Dewsbury, Elmet and Rothwell and Keighley.
Edit: and if Mr Dancer tells me that Ed is Balls deep in trouble in Morley & Outwood, I'll be camped there for the duration.
I've heard on the grapevine Dewsbury is lost and Elmet is surely safe. Keighley I reckon turns red (population demographics that sort of thing...) and Colne Valley surely stays blue.
Pudsey is THE ONE !
I reckon Dewsbury is one of those places were UKIP might cause more problems for Labour than the Tories.
Excellent speech in the HoC by Rory Stewart, Chair of the Defence Select Committee, on defence spending. An area that sadly the Coalition has not covered itself in glory.
Well said Jack but you forget that the UK is an 'Aid Superpower' now.
That has Putin quaking in his boots.
Long term PBers will remember that there were numerous Conservative supporters here who angrily and repeatedly denounced the defence policies of the last Labour government.
So committed were they to supporting military personnel that they promised to resign from the Conservative party if there was defence cuts.
But they all seemed to lose interest in the issue after May 2010.
I don't regard being an "Aid-Superpower" and a military power as mutually exclusive - The velvet glove and the fist in the velvet glove strategy.
I have been critical of defence cuts for decades. We continue to live in a very dangerous world. The "peace dividend" only saw the Russian bear slumber for several years and the rise of Islamic terrorism must ensure that defence spending meets the needs of the continuing threat.
'I am voting in Twickenham. I've swapped my vote and will do what the other party to the swap wants.'
Sounds like Cable's in a little local difficulty..
How does this work ?
Is there some Noel Edmonds type hosting an internet site where people around the country offer a vote in one constituency in return for someone else's vote in a different constituency ?
There was in 2005. “Swapmyvote.com” or something like that.
I see that Fargle has again successfully derailed the entire existing media political narrative again, got the whole MSM, twitterati, online uk political world and just about everyone here discussing him and his parties policies and suceeded in provoking the liberal left into paroxyms of outrage thus establishing more clear purple water between him and liblabcon.
I reckon we've only got two maybe three Ipsos-Mori polls before the General Election.
#CloseToTheBigDay
Will you be up in Pudsey near election time - most important seat in whole of Yorkshire t'world I reckon.
Yup, and a few others, Colne Valley, Dewsbury, Elmet and Rothwell and Keighley.
Edit: and if Mr Dancer tells me that Ed is Balls deep in trouble in Morley & Outwood, I'll be camped there for the duration.
I've heard on the grapevine Dewsbury is lost and Elmet is surely safe. Keighley I reckon turns red (population demographics that sort of thing...) and Colne Valley surely stays blue.
Pudsey is THE ONE !
I live in Keighley constituency and my money,6-4, is on a Tory hold. The mature blue rinse ladies of the Wharfe Valley will turnout en masse,chunk of Labour vote in Aire Valley will stay home another decent slice will vote UKIP,Keighley town was a BNP hotspot, the UKIP vote is Red Kipper not Blue
I see that Fargle has again successfully derailed the entire existing media political narrative again, got the whole MSM, twitterati, online uk political world and just about everyone here discussing him and his parties policies and suceeded in provoking the liberal left into paroxyms of outrage thus establishing more clear purple water between him and liblabcon.
Got to hand it to him.
As Cammo said "an attention seeker".
So you think Cameron should disappear into the Downing Street bunker and stay there for the next 8 weeks and leave Craig Oliver to answer all the questions then? Really weak response from Downing Street.
I see that Fargle has again successfully derailed the entire existing media political narrative again, got the whole MSM, twitterati, online uk political world and just about everyone here discussing him and his parties policies and suceeded in provoking the liberal left into paroxyms of outrage thus establishing more clear purple water between him and liblabcon.
Got to hand it to him.
Hmmm, so the people who have been commenting against Farage are all 'liberal left'?
You could just as easily say: "Farage's comments have disgusted civilised people, whilst the closet racists, ghastly bigots and useful idiots have been clapping and applauding his words."
Now, which one of those categories do you belong to?
Nigel Farage is claiming that we don't need legislation against race discrimination because we're not a racist country any more and it's now just an awful chore. That does not appear to be Trevor Phillips' view at all.
I would actively consider narrowing down the legislation. Making it clear that the legislation prohibits discrimination (in favour of and against), and that it is specific to characteristics that you are born with and have no control over. Immediately repeal the religious aspects. Be more clear about the nationalities.
Culture is not race.
That is quite sensible. Also means it would cover all physical aspects so no more anti gingerism or anti small or bald people.
A multi racial society is right and to be expected, a multi cultural society is another matter entirely. The debate on culture is to what degree deviations from mainstream culture can be encouraged/tolerated without damaging society.
I think your analysis is only partially correct. I live in UKIP's "heartland" of Kent and have seen many of my friends defect to the party, so I would hope to have some insight on this. People defect for UKIP on a multitude of topics, and there's often a "straw that broke the camel's back" mentality going on. Immigration is the overwhelming topic that is the biggest topic, but it is not the only one. I would say gay marriage, nanny state laws, government intrusion, and, of course, ongoing European integration have all played their role, although the precise mixture varies from person to person.
In addition, a major factor is people feeling culturally alien to leading establishment figures in the country, including the leadership of the Conservative party. There's a strong sense of the mainstream parties no longer being or speaking for 'people like us.' This sense is much amplified by such people perceiving they are being dismissed and ridiculed. That is why accusing them of being "loony" or "Yerp" is counter-productive. The hounding of people over unfashionable views also plays into this effect. In many working class pubs around the country, people often hear similar comments. Even if they disagree with the comments, they regard them as reasonable and the furor over them makes people feel more alienated.
I believe your reading of such past events occurring after Labour governments is accurate, but I do not believe an insurgence will fade away so easily this time. For one, it does not seem like immigration, the primary driving issue, will be substantially curbed under the Conservatives as it was historically. The second difference is that the social policy of those at the top of the Conservatives party seem to be further apart than historically. Many defectors have cited the failure of the Conservatives to roll back policy changes made by Labour as part of their reason for joining UKIP. The third is that UKIP, unlike historical right wing populist movements, appear to be benefitting from those disillusioned on the left and the right, and so can sustain themselves through governments of either colour.
I do not see the laws against racial discrimination as a bureaucratic inconvenience.
I do see Nigel Farage as a publicity-seeking narcissist who doesn't care who gets to suffer, so long as he's the centre of attention.
Agree entirely; ditto re the laws on sexual discrimination etc. Equality under the law matters and someone who is discriminated against because of their sex/sexuality/whatever - when that is irrelevant - is not being treated equally under the law.
Going back to such days is not attractive - however much it may be to those who support UKIP.
The problem is that the law as is rarely provides equality (I can point to discrimination in gender, sexuality and employment law) but instead provides positive discrimination for various groups. One could argue that all Farage is doing is changing the dynamics of who receives that positive discrimination.
R4 World at One. Winston McKenzie gives one of his most bizarre interviews yet. He seems to be arguing that the way to tackle endemic discrimination against black men seeking employment is to repeal race discrimination laws. Matha K understandably came across as rather perplexed by the line.
This site is mainly populated by middle class, intelligent, good earning people with more than a passing interest in politics, in no way representative of the population as a whole. Go into virtually any town centre pub outside of London and asked people if they're upset or offended by what Farage said (note, not what Khan and Cameron are pretending he said).
I think you also have to realise that the non-british who would be come to this country if UKIP came to power would speak English and have qualifications of some description. These are the very sort of people who employers would chose.
@Ed_Miliband: I think Nigel Farage's comments today are wrong, divisive and dangerous. The laws we have on equality represent our values as a country.
@Nigel_Farage: .@Ed_Miliband The laws don't represent these values, Ed. The British people do. We believe in Britain. You believe in bureaucracy.
'Asked whether there would be a law against discrimination on the grounds of race or colour under Ukip, Farage added: “No … ' He wants to withdraw the current laws on racial discrimination. His excuses for that are irrelevant. He is blowing out a loud and clear dog whistle to every racist in the country. I very much hope that amounts to a lot less than 14% of the electorate.
It has clearly not got anything to do with libertarianism - that is just a sick joke. Farage blows out these dog whistles because he has realised he can get away with it and there are votes in it.
We have had an epidemic of child-rape which would not have occurred but for the legislation on racial discrimination. There are few or no moral absolutes, and if there are any, anti-racism isn't one of them.
I think I'd say the problem is less with the legislation (who could really justify denying someone a job on the basis of skin colour?) and more with the practices and bureaucratic outlook that the legislation fosters. And, that's true of so much legislation.
Yes. Employers have to be able to produce a paper trail proving that they made the appointment on non-discriminatory grounds. Unfortunately, few of them opt for the simple expedient of drawing a name from a hat of suitably qualified candidates...
AFAIK Farah is a tax exile living in the United States who probably never needs to work again.
Not everyone living abroad is a tax exile. Farah trains in the US, as do very many distance athletes due to the facilities and climate. Again in common with other athletes, he is taxed on appearance fees and prizes in the countries where he competes as you'd expect.
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBJ_FDcCwTU
He wants to withdraw the current laws on racial discrimination. His excuses for that are irrelevant. He is blowing out a loud and clear dog whistle to every racist in the country. I very much hope that amounts to a lot less than 14% of the electorate.
It has clearly not got anything to do with libertarianism - that is just a sick joke. Farage blows out these dog whistles because he has realised he can get away with it and there are votes in it.
Who agrees with Ed, and who agrees with Nigel ?
Which, to my mind, implies that the constituency prices are stale. There's value in backing the Tories in constituencies [coupled with Labour on the outright, if you don't fully trust the plunge to 1.55].
Labour - the party of taking a piss in a phone box at 3.00 am Saturday morning, kebab in hand....
https://twitter.com/CCHQPress/status/575999042917924864
This panic about race and immigration is a well-observed consequence of previous episodes of Labour government, if you look at the 1970s and the rise of the National Front followed by its complete disappearance when the Tories were in.
Your hypothesis may be right; there may be some meta-strain of rightist libertarian (etc) thinking into which UKIP has tapped, to intellectual and polling advantage. I think my theory - that they were around when Labour fomented racism through policies that are impossible to reverse - is no less likely, however, and also has the advantage of explaining why an "insurgent" party should have such a solidly Establishment figurehead as its leader.
I do see Nigel Farage as a publicity-seeking narcissist who doesn't care who gets to suffer, so long as he's the centre of attention.
Whether these remarks reflect his actual views is impossible to say.
Still can't stay to debate, very busy today.
MikeK Posts: 5,573
9:23AM
The story and proper thread this morning is Nigel Farage's brilliant counter-punch, even if unintended:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31846453
UKIP would scrap much of the legislation designed to prevent racial discrimination in work, party leader Nigel Farage has said.
But can't stay and debate - things to do - will be back by tea-time. Tarrah!
My company has a decent size contract where we're selling in Euros. We could need Ed in charge :S
The only difference between Farage and those other MPs caught saying silly things, is that Farage knew he was being filmed.
I don't think Labour will match last Thursday's 4% lead with Yougov, tonight, which would shift the average a bit towards the Tories.
@JoeMurphyLondon: Osborne whips Balls (in @ipsosMORI poll) .... 41% say Oz is "most capable" Chancellor, 30% say Balls is. http://t.co/R26KOr8gfL
Con 33.8
Lab 32.5
UKIP 14.3
LD 7.7
Green 5.8
Got to hand it to him.
Going back to such days is not attractive - however much it may be to those who support UKIP.
I'll send you the latest Crystal Set, but you'll have to buy your own earphones.
#CloseToTheBigDay
However I should point out that for the purpose of semaphore reading I employ a dedicated FART - Flag Assessment Research Technician at a substantial annual stipend of 50 guineas all found and unlimited fine pies that they may consume.
That has Putin quaking in his boots.
Long term PBers will remember that there were numerous Conservative supporters here who angrily and repeatedly denounced the defence policies of the last Labour government.
So committed were they to supporting military personnel that they promised to resign from the Conservative party if there was defence cuts.
But they all seemed to lose interest in the issue after May 2010.
Edit: and if Mr Dancer tells me that Ed is Balls deep in trouble in Morley & Outwood, I'll be camped there for the duration.
Culture is not race.
Is there some Noel Edmonds type hosting an internet site where people around the country offer a vote in one constituency in return for someone else's vote in a different constituency ?
Sadiq Khan thinks the Farage comment "one of the most shocking things I have ever heard."
Is it ...
(1) Ludicrous hyperbole
(2) The truth. He is a shadow minister of the Crown and has never been outside an echo chamber.
Just in case, it's (2), I suggest he reads 'Wind in the Willows' by Kenneth Grahame where he describes the dangerous stoats and weasels that live in the 'Wildwood'. There, Sadiq Mole 'gets lost in the woods, sees many "evil faces" among the wood's less-welcoming denizens, succumbs to fright and panic and hides.'
The big winner is Channel 4, and the small winner is Ukip.
Most will probably think - what was the fuss about? The Mole types will scream and run for cover but they were never going to vote Ukip anyway
Pudsey is THE ONE !
Either way, whatever the shortcomings of our ailing and anachronistic electoral system, it's disgusting and an affront to democracy.
Surely it's illegal? If not, it should be.
Halifax is another place you might see me
I have been critical of defence cuts for decades. We continue to live in a very dangerous world. The "peace dividend" only saw the Russian bear slumber for several years and the rise of Islamic terrorism must ensure that defence spending meets the needs of the continuing threat.
"Senior judge to lead inquiry into police spying on political campaigns "
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2983851/We-wrong-try-ban-racism-existence-says-former-equality-chief.html
Slooooow down man.
Trevor Phillips' comments should be interesting - I'll definitely watch. Hope I don't get so shocked that I become hysterical.
You could just as easily say: "Farage's comments have disgusted civilised people, whilst the closet racists, ghastly bigots and useful idiots have been clapping and applauding his words."
Now, which one of those categories do you belong to?
A multi racial society is right and to be expected, a multi cultural society is another matter entirely. The debate on culture is to what degree deviations from mainstream culture can be encouraged/tolerated without damaging society.
I think your analysis is only partially correct. I live in UKIP's "heartland" of Kent and have seen many of my friends defect to the party, so I would hope to have some insight on this. People defect for UKIP on a multitude of topics, and there's often a "straw that broke the camel's back" mentality going on. Immigration is the overwhelming topic that is the biggest topic, but it is not the only one. I would say gay marriage, nanny state laws, government intrusion, and, of course, ongoing European integration have all played their role, although the precise mixture varies from person to person.
In addition, a major factor is people feeling culturally alien to leading establishment figures in the country, including the leadership of the Conservative party. There's a strong sense of the mainstream parties no longer being or speaking for 'people like us.' This sense is much amplified by such people perceiving they are being dismissed and ridiculed. That is why accusing them of being "loony" or "Yerp" is counter-productive. The hounding of people over unfashionable views also plays into this effect. In many working class pubs around the country, people often hear similar comments. Even if they disagree with the comments, they regard them as reasonable and the furor over them makes people feel more alienated.
I believe your reading of such past events occurring after Labour governments is accurate, but I do not believe an insurgence will fade away so easily this time. For one, it does not seem like immigration, the primary driving issue, will be substantially curbed under the Conservatives as it was historically. The second difference is that the social policy of those at the top of the Conservatives party seem to be further apart than historically. Many defectors have cited the failure of the Conservatives to roll back policy changes made by Labour as part of their reason for joining UKIP. The third is that UKIP, unlike historical right wing populist movements, appear to be benefitting from those disillusioned on the left and the right, and so can sustain themselves through governments of either colour.
Peak kipper on the way.
(Of course this just shows that the 9% for UKIP last time was an outlier - as pretty well everyone here knew).
#Don'tknowwhyilaidoff #profitsaprofit
Fantasy author Sir Terry Pratchett has died aged 66, having had Alzheimer's disease for eight years.
Sad that Terry Pratchett has died, but even sadder that he developed Alzheimers. A fine comic writer.