They had a dutch guy on the radio last night to talk about how they make it work there.
Apparently, before the Euro elections, they invited 8 parties and 6 just didn't show and they went ahead with just 2.
The latest approach, which all the parties have agreed, is that they are going to have head to head debates, whereby lots are drawn and each party debates once.
I heard the other day that Manchester was the first nuclear free zone in the UK. If only they had realised what a style icon they were turning down
London was expected to be devastated by two to four bombs of up to five megatons each exploding over the city. Glasgow, Birmingham and Manchester were each said to be in line for one or two "airbursts" of up to five megatons.
and scare yourself about how big the blast radius is, 5mt on Big Ben for example would reach Watford with the thermal radiation flash.
More important, go to Moscow and see how little damage a 100kt W76 actually does to a country the size of Russia. We have 32 available and 64 max even with extra missiles we only have around 120 warheads.
That's not a lot of damage. It is not even viable as a "deterent".
One dropped on the centre of Moscow appears to kill a quarter of a million people. Might put me off a bit.
That would not be in line with Russian military history. The phrase "Acceptable Casualties" could have been invented there.
40 warheads+, upwards of 10 million dead, and 30-40 million injured or dying. Not even Russia would consider that acceptable.
The UK has the ability to launch a maximum of 32 missiles at any enemy.
Which have multiple warheads. The current best guestimate is about 160.....of 80-100 kilotons.
One of which would kill a quarter of a million Muscovites and injure over a million.....
I can see why the Cameroons don't want debates because Miliband or Farage are more likely to get a boost from them than he is. However, despite the PB Tory attempts at spin, he will either be perceived as a coward scared of debating with his opponents or a bully trying to stop debates going ahead because he hasn't got his own way. Can't see any way that Cameron comes out of this looking the winner when Clegg, Milliband and Farage are all united in their desire for the debates to take place. If he tries to stop being "empty chaired" legally he will be digging an even bigger hole.
@FrancisUrquhart ISIS have at their heart a belief in a forth coming apocalypse, granted, a few of them might not have the same degree of certainty about "when and if" but it does give you an insight about what you are dealing with.
If we did nuke (say) a Syrian town and kill hundreds of ISIS fighters at one presumably they'd all be martyrs. Will there be enough virgins waiting for them on the other side?
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
One should be a little more tolerant towards the public's preferred sources of information than their predilection for state violence. I don't follow your logic, but I'm happy with an EU referendum at any point.
Mr. Money, perhaps. I'm sure a majority of the electorate would enjoy seeing Ed Miliband gunged, or Nick Clegg put in stocks.
Or we could let politicians campaign as they see fit, and the public can judge them on that.
The 7-7-2 format is not carved on stone and handed down by the lord God to his broadcasting prophet Adam Boulton. It's a faintly ridiculous compromise, which is unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein, as well as the Lib Dems.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
It's not unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein as they do not face a challenge from any Major Party in NI which is being included in the debates. It's really that simple. All Major Parties competing against one another are included (plus the Greens who are still fighting Ofcom on this).
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
One should be a little more tolerant towards the public's preferred sources of information than their predilection for state violence. I don't follow your logic, but I'm happy with an EU referendum at any point.
Simple solution is to let the EU decide the debate format - should keep everyone happy.
I can see why the Cameroons don't want debates because Miliband or Farage are more likely to get a boost from them than he is. However, despite the PB Tory attempts at spin, he will either be perceived as a coward scared of debating with his opponents or a bully trying to stop debates going ahead because he hasn't got his own way. Can't see any way that Cameron comes out of this looking the winner when Clegg, Milliband and Farage are all united in their desire for the debates to take place. If he tries to stop being "empty chaired" legally he will be digging an even bigger hole.
The only course of action for the Tories is to do the first debate on ITV then accept the "empty chair" from BBC and Sky.
We have no idea what they implications of the "empty chair" will be but we do know that despite all the sound and fury in 2010 the debates made virtually no difference to the outcome so Cam may get away with being "empty chaired" anyway...
Mr. Money, perhaps. I'm sure a majority of the electorate would enjoy seeing Ed Miliband gunged, or Nick Clegg put in stocks.
Or we could let politicians campaign as they see fit, and the public can judge them on that.
The 7-7-2 format is not carved on stone and handed down by the lord God to his broadcasting prophet Adam Boulton. It's a faintly ridiculous compromise, which is unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein, as well as the Lib Dems.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
It's not unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein as they do not face a challenge from any Major Party in NI which is being included in the debates. It's really that simple. All Major Parties competing against one another are included (plus the Greens who are still fighting Ofcom on this).
UKIP are running in Northern Ireland, though I doubt they'll keep any deposits.
I can see why the Cameroons don't want debates because Miliband or Farage are more likely to get a boost from them than he is. However, despite the PB Tory attempts at spin, he will either be perceived as a coward scared of debating with his opponents or a bully trying to stop debates going ahead because he hasn't got his own way. Can't see any way that Cameron comes out of this looking the winner when Clegg, Milliband and Farage are all united in their desire for the debates to take place. If he tries to stop being "empty chaired" legally he will be digging an even bigger hole.
The only course of action for the Tories is to do the first debate on ITV then accept the "empty chair" from BBC and Sky.
We have no idea what they implications of the "empty chair" will be but we do know that despite all the sound and fury in 2010 the debates made virtually no difference to the outcome so Cam may get away with being "empty chaired" anyway...
It'll make charter renewal fun Kudos to the BBC for not backing down.
Jim Pickard @PickardJE · 11s11 seconds ago The second-string Labour message is....
"BRITAIN SUCCEEDS WHEN WORKING FAMILIES SUCCEED"
I guess it is better than British Jobs for British Workers...or Gulag for Slags.
I quite liked 'Gulags for Slags' - it had a certain decisive clarity missing from so much political discourse these days....and slags don't vote do they?
The BBC really have drawn the short straw having to show a six leader debate without Cameron. We'll already have seen all six for 90 minutes previously. I thought they'd change the format to 7-3-3 to keep it interesting.
Mr. Money, perhaps. I'm sure a majority of the electorate would enjoy seeing Ed Miliband gunged, or Nick Clegg put in stocks.
Or we could let politicians campaign as they see fit, and the public can judge them on that.
The 7-7-2 format is not carved on stone and handed down by the lord God to his broadcasting prophet Adam Boulton. It's a faintly ridiculous compromise, which is unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein, as well as the Lib Dems.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
It's not unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein as they do not face a challenge from any Major Party in NI which is being included in the debates. It's really that simple. All Major Parties competing against one another are included (plus the Greens who are still fighting Ofcom on this).
Aren't the Conservative Party running in NI this time? I thought they did in 2010?
Mr. Money, perhaps. I'm sure a majority of the electorate would enjoy seeing Ed Miliband gunged, or Nick Clegg put in stocks.
Or we could let politicians campaign as they see fit, and the public can judge them on that.
The 7-7-2 format is not carved on stone and handed down by the lord God to his broadcasting prophet Adam Boulton. It's a faintly ridiculous compromise, which is unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein, as well as the Lib Dems.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
It's not unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein as they do not face a challenge from any Major Party in NI which is being included in the debates. It's really that simple. All Major Parties competing against one another are included (plus the Greens who are still fighting Ofcom on this).
Aren't the Conservative Party running in NI this time? I thought they did in 2010?
I can see why the Cameroons don't want debates because Miliband or Farage are more likely to get a boost from them than he is. However, despite the PB Tory attempts at spin, he will either be perceived as a coward scared of debating with his opponents or a bully trying to stop debates going ahead because he hasn't got his own way. Can't see any way that Cameron comes out of this looking the winner when Clegg, Milliband and Farage are all united in their desire for the debates to take place. If he tries to stop being "empty chaired" legally he will be digging an even bigger hole.
The only course of action for the Tories is to do the first debate on ITV then accept the "empty chair" from BBC and Sky.
And have an exclusive live interview with the PM aired at the same time on a competing channel.....
I can see why the Cameroons don't want debates because Miliband or Farage are more likely to get a boost from them than he is. However, despite the PB Tory attempts at spin, he will either be perceived as a coward scared of debating with his opponents or a bully trying to stop debates going ahead because he hasn't got his own way. Can't see any way that Cameron comes out of this looking the winner when Clegg, Milliband and Farage are all united in their desire for the debates to take place. If he tries to stop being "empty chaired" legally he will be digging an even bigger hole.
The only course of action for the Tories is to do the first debate on ITV then accept the "empty chair" from BBC and Sky.
We have no idea what they implications of the "empty chair" will be but we do know that despite all the sound and fury in 2010 the debates made virtually no difference to the outcome so Cam may get away with being "empty chaired" anyway...
It'll make charter renewal fun Kudos to the BBC for not backing down.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
David Cameron's communications chief Craig Oliver has said: "I made the prime minister's final position clear in my last letter - he is willing to do a seven-way debate in the week beginning March 23. Clearly it is disappointing that you are not prepared to take him up on that offer. I am ready to discuss at your convenience the logistics of making the debate we have suggested happen."
Mr. Money, perhaps. I'm sure a majority of the electorate would enjoy seeing Ed Miliband gunged, or Nick Clegg put in stocks.
Or we could let politicians campaign as they see fit, and the public can judge them on that.
The 7-7-2 format is not carved on stone and handed down by the lord God to his broadcasting prophet Adam Boulton. It's a faintly ridiculous compromise, which is unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein, as well as the Lib Dems.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
It's not unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein as they do not face a challenge from any Major Party in NI which is being included in the debates. It's really that simple. All Major Parties competing against one another are included (plus the Greens who are still fighting Ofcom on this).
Aren't the Conservative Party running in NI this time? I thought they did in 2010?
Still time to select candidates
All the Conservatives managed to do in Northern Ireland is completely sink the UUP ! (They were drowning before the Con hook up mind)
If the debates really don't happen then imo it's highly likely we'll get the lowest turnout ever for an election.
Except Scotland......
A great advert for our democracy where the Constituent Country with the highest turnout being in a position to dictate the direction the UK should take.
Mr. Money, perhaps. I'm sure a majority of the electorate would enjoy seeing Ed Miliband gunged, or Nick Clegg put in stocks.
Or we could let politicians campaign as they see fit, and the public can judge them on that.
The 7-7-2 format is not carved on stone and handed down by the lord God to his broadcasting prophet Adam Boulton. It's a faintly ridiculous compromise, which is unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein, as well as the Lib Dems.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
It's not unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein as they do not face a challenge from any Major Party in NI which is being included in the debates. It's really that simple. All Major Parties competing against one another are included (plus the Greens who are still fighting Ofcom on this).
Aren't the Conservative Party running in NI this time? I thought they did in 2010?
Still time to select candidates
All the Conservatives managed to do in Northern Ireland is completely sink the UUP ! (They were drowning before the Con hook up mind)
Getting rid of the split in the unionist vote was a bad thing?
I heard the other day that Manchester was the first nuclear free zone in the UK. If only they had realised what a style icon they were turning down
London was expected to be devastated by two to four bombs of up to five megatons each exploding over the city. Glasgow, Birmingham and Manchester were each said to be in line for one or two "airbursts" of up to five megatons.
and scare yourself about how big the blast radius is, 5mt on Big Ben for example would reach Watford with the thermal radiation flash.
More important, go to Moscow and see how little damage a 100kt W76 actually does to a country the size of Russia. We have 32 available and 64 max even with extra missiles we only have around 120 warheads.
That's not a lot of damage. It is not even viable as a "deterent".
One dropped on the centre of Moscow appears to kill a quarter of a million people. Might put me off a bit.
That would not be in line with Russian military history. The phrase "Acceptable Casualties" could have been invented there.
40 warheads+, upwards of 10 million dead, and 30-40 million injured or dying. Not even Russia would consider that acceptable.
The UK has the ability to launch a maximum of 32 missiles at any enemy.
Which have multiple warheads. The current best guestimate is about 160.....of 80-100 kilotons.
One of which would kill a quarter of a million Muscovites and injure over a million.....
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
Mr. Money, perhaps. I'm sure a majority of the electorate would enjoy seeing Ed Miliband gunged, or Nick Clegg put in stocks.
Or we could let politicians campaign as they see fit, and the public can judge them on that.
The 7-7-2 format is not carved on stone and handed down by the lord God to his broadcasting prophet Adam Boulton. It's a faintly ridiculous compromise, which is unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein, as well as the Lib Dems.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
It's not unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein as they do not face a challenge from any Major Party in NI which is being included in the debates. It's really that simple. All Major Parties competing against one another are included (plus the Greens who are still fighting Ofcom on this).
Aren't the Conservative Party running in NI this time? I thought they did in 2010?
That's just a straw man. The argument that was given for the inclusion of the SNP and Plaid was that they may be involved in some sort of coalition or arrangement with whoever forms the Goverment. Of course the same is very much true of the DUP who have three times the number of seats as Plaid but the TV stations don't want to include them (presumably because that would then mean SF would also have to appear).
If the debates really don't happen then imo it's highly likely we'll get the lowest turnout ever for an election.
Except Scotland......
A great advert for our democracy where the Constituent Country with the highest turnout being in a position to dictate the direction the UK should take.
At the whim of 4% of the population (who vote SNP) then?
Mr. Money, perhaps. I'm sure a majority of the electorate would enjoy seeing Ed Miliband gunged, or Nick Clegg put in stocks.
Or we could let politicians campaign as they see fit, and the public can judge them on that.
The 7-7-2 format is not carved on stone and handed down by the lord God to his broadcasting prophet Adam Boulton. It's a faintly ridiculous compromise, which is unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein, as well as the Lib Dems.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
It's not unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein as they do not face a challenge from any Major Party in NI which is being included in the debates. It's really that simple. All Major Parties competing against one another are included (plus the Greens who are still fighting Ofcom on this).
UKIP are running in Northern Ireland, though I doubt they'll keep any deposits.
That's the point. What matters is Major Parties. UKIP are only considered a Major Party in England and in Wales. As an irrelevance in NI they can be in the debates without it effecting the NI vote.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
One should be a little more tolerant towards the public's preferred sources of information than their predilection for state violence. I don't follow your logic, but I'm happy with an EU referendum at any point.
Simple solution is to let the EU decide the debate format - should keep everyone happy.
As I indicated previously Cameron's advisers on the debates issue need their goolies placed in mangle pour encourager les autres from future election stupidity.
The PM has now backed himself in a tight dead end of his own foolish making and appears to have the desperate options of either a humiliating climb down or the prospect of being empty chaired. He has gambled on the prestige of the Prime Minister not being snubbed and has lost and he deserved to lose.
In doing so the Prime Minister has appeared churlish, evasive and downright bone headed and worse still has even managed to make Ed Miliband appear credible. Quite a coup for the PM's election team.
I heard the other day that Manchester was the first nuclear free zone in the UK. If only they had realised what a style icon they were turning down
London was expected to be devastated by two to four bombs of up to five megatons each exploding over the city. Glasgow, Birmingham and Manchester were each said to be in line for one or two "airbursts" of up to five megatons.
and scare yourself about how big the blast radius is, 5mt on Big Ben for example would reach Watford with the thermal radiation flash.
More important, go to Moscow and see how little damage a 100kt W76 actually does to a country the size of Russia. We have 32 available and 64 max even with extra missiles we only have around 120 warheads.
That's not a lot of damage. It is not even viable as a "deterent".
One dropped on the centre of Moscow appears to kill a quarter of a million people. Might put me off a bit.
That would not be in line with Russian military history. The phrase "Acceptable Casualties" could have been invented there.
40 warheads+, upwards of 10 million dead, and 30-40 million injured or dying. Not even Russia would consider that acceptable.
The UK has the ability to launch a maximum of 32 missiles at any enemy.
Which have multiple warheads. The current best guestimate is about 160.....of 80-100 kilotons.
One of which would kill a quarter of a million Muscovites and injure over a million.....
I can see why the Cameroons don't want debates because Miliband or Farage are more likely to get a boost from them than he is. However, despite the PB Tory attempts at spin, he will either be perceived as a coward scared of debating with his opponents or a bully trying to stop debates going ahead because he hasn't got his own way. Can't see any way that Cameron comes out of this looking the winner when Clegg, Milliband and Farage are all united in their desire for the debates to take place. If he tries to stop being "empty chaired" legally he will be digging an even bigger hole.
The only course of action for the Tories is to do the first debate on ITV then accept the "empty chair" from BBC and Sky.
We have no idea what they implications of the "empty chair" will be but we do know that despite all the sound and fury in 2010 the debates made virtually no difference to the outcome so Cam may get away with being "empty chaired" anyway...
It'll make charter renewal fun Kudos to the BBC for not backing down.
Bloody disgraceful from the BBC,did they ever threaten to empty chair Labour PM Tony Blair.
Mr. Money, perhaps. I'm sure a majority of the electorate would enjoy seeing Ed Miliband gunged, or Nick Clegg put in stocks.
Or we could let politicians campaign as they see fit, and the public can judge them on that.
The 7-7-2 format is not carved on stone and handed down by the lord God to his broadcasting prophet Adam Boulton. It's a faintly ridiculous compromise, which is unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein, as well as the Lib Dems.
I do not think it healthy for the media to dictate the course of a campaign. And if we're going to claim that the public's wishes are paramount, I would anticipate the reintroduction of hanging and a vote, or outright withdrawal, on our membership of the EU.
It's not unfair to the DUP/Sinn Fein as they do not face a challenge from any Major Party in NI which is being included in the debates. It's really that simple. All Major Parties competing against one another are included (plus the Greens who are still fighting Ofcom on this).
Aren't the Conservative Party running in NI this time? I thought they did in 2010?
Actually in 2010 as the Tories ran in alliance with the UUP, the DUP's objection would actually be valid - a Major NI party would have been in the debates so they would all have had to be invited.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
ITV under the most pressure - they can have a 6 person one without Cam just to keep solidarity with their hated rivals or get the prime cut.
Mr. W, Cameron has stated for years he thought the debates should happen earlier and be more spaced out. Broadcasters ignored that.
Of course, he does look evasive, but as I loathe the debates, it doesn't bother me.
The risk isn't one way. Aside from the 'six squabbling idiots' scenario I outlined below, if the media and other politicians bang on about this ad infinitum, it'll annoy voters who want to know about things like taxation rates, the deficit, and so forth. There comes a point where complaining becomes whining.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
ITV under the most pressure - they can have a 6 person one without Cam just to keep solidarity with their hated rivals or get the prime cut.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
ITV under the most pressure
Not from where most other people are standing. Dave can either back down and look weak or stick to his guns and look silly. I'd much rather be ITV.
As I indicated previously Cameron's advisers on the debates issue need their goolies placed in mangle pour encourager les autres from future election stupidity.
The PM has now backed himself in a tight dead end of his own foolish making and appears to have the desperate options of either a humiliating climb down or the prospect of being empty chaired. He has gambled on the prestige of the Prime Minister not being snubbed and has lost and he deserved to lose.
In doing so the Prime Minister has appeared churlish, evasive and downright bone headed and worse still has even managed to make Ed Miliband appear credible. Quite a coup for the PM's election team.
Will there be a price to pay from your ARSE tomorrow?
CONS it can only be bad for Cameron to debate Farage/Miliband, UKIP It can only be good for Farage to debate either of them, and LAB its worth having to debate Farage if Miliband gets to debate Cameron
The fact is we are dancing around minimal percentage boosts here, that I believe are exaggerated
Its probably no bigger than 2/1 that Cameron comes out of a debate with the pair of them and Clegg in a better position than he went in and even then it only matters to a few people that hadn't made up their minds.
This all reminds me of bookmakers fussing around making excuses not to take a bet off someone who is a smallish winner.. and a punter desperate to get a massive bet on when he thinks he has a better edge than he really has
I can see why the Cameroons don't want debates because Miliband or Farage are more likely to get a boost from them than he is. However, despite the PB Tory attempts at spin, he will either be perceived as a coward scared of debating with his opponents or a bully trying to stop debates going ahead because he hasn't got his own way. Can't see any way that Cameron comes out of this looking the winner when Clegg, Milliband and Farage are all united in their desire for the debates to take place. If he tries to stop being "empty chaired" legally he will be digging an even bigger hole.
The only course of action for the Tories is to do the first debate on ITV then accept the "empty chair" from BBC and Sky.
We have no idea what they implications of the "empty chair" will be but we do know that despite all the sound and fury in 2010 the debates made virtually no difference to the outcome so Cam may get away with being "empty chaired" anyway...
It'll make charter renewal fun Kudos to the BBC for not backing down.
Politically it gives the BBC a big stick to beat Cameron with if he is PM after May. It's probably more beneficial for the BBC to stick to their guns and point out that Tory calls for licence fee cuts is a politically motivated payback.
Aren't the Conservative Party running in NI this time? I thought they did in 2010?
The Conservatives have run in Northern Ireland since the late 1980s and had small numbers of local councillors. They formally joined up with the UUP in 2009 as "Ulster Conservatives and Unionists - New Force", saw one MEP elected in 2009, but no MPs in 2010 (with the UUP's one MP before 2010 leaving the party in protest at the link-up and managing to get herself re-elected as an independent).
The UUP link was dissolved and the NI Conservatives re-launched in 2012. Their only sitting councillor lost his seat last year and they came bottom in the Euro-elections with 0.7% of the vote. I believe they are intending to stand in May, but seem very unlikely to make any significant impact.
UKIP, of course, also organise in Northern Ireland, with slightly more success.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
Yeah, this is a point that people aren't saying much. Even if it was sold as "Miliband vs. Cameron with Cameron empty-chaired", people still would consider it "an audience with Miliband" and the viewership figures wouldn't be nearly as high as an actual debate.
This is why I think they should invite Clegg and Farage.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
ITV under the most pressure
Not from where most other people are standing. Dave can either back down and look weak or stick to his guns and look silly. I'd much rather be ITV.
I'm sure ITV shareholders will prefer a dividend in brownie points from the broadcasters gang rather than advertising wonga..
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
Yeah, this is a point that people aren't saying much. Even if it was sold as "Miliband vs. Cameron with Cameron empty-chaired", people still would consider it "an audience with Miliband" and the viewership figures wouldn't be nearly as high as an actual debate.
This is why I think they should invite Clegg and Farage.
I don't see how they can offer David Cameron something on a take it or leave it basis, then do something different if he leaves it.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
ITV under the most pressure
Not from where most other people are standing. Dave can either back down and look weak or stick to his guns and look silly. I'd much rather be ITV.
I'm sure ITV shareholders will prefer a dividend in brownie points from the broadcasters gang rather than advertising wonga..
@isam That is where the crass stupidity of Dave's election team lies. The debates themselves would only be a short term hit. The story is now about Cammo avoiding them.
If the debates really don't happen then imo it's highly likely we'll get the lowest turnout ever for an election.
Except Scotland......
A great advert for our democracy where the Constituent Country with the highest turnout being in a position to dictate the direction the UK should take.
At the whim of 4% of the population (who vote SNP) then?
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
Yeah, this is a point that people aren't saying much. Even if it was sold as "Miliband vs. Cameron with Cameron empty-chaired", people still would consider it "an audience with Miliband" and the viewership figures wouldn't be nearly as high as an actual debate.
This is why I think they should invite Clegg and Farage.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
ITV under the most pressure
Not from where most other people are standing. Dave can either back down and look weak or stick to his guns and look silly. I'd much rather be ITV.
I'm sure ITV shareholders will prefer a dividend in brownie points from the broadcasters gang rather than advertising wonga..
The private sector exists out there remember...
90 minutes Prime Time - serious ad revenues to turn down.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Watch and learn.
And try to imagine a 1 to 1 debate, with one of the 1s absent and the other 1 is ed. It will be hilarious, I promise you. A vagina monologue, you might say.
If the debates really don't happen then imo it's highly likely we'll get the lowest turnout ever for an election.
Except Scotland......
A great advert for our democracy where the Constituent Country with the highest turnout being in a position to dictate the direction the UK should take.
At the whim of 4% of the population (who vote SNP) then?
@isam That is where the crass stupidity of Dave's election team lies. The debates themselves would only be a short term hit. The story is now about Cammo avoiding them.
"The debates themselves would only be a short term hit."
Actually they wouldn't.
I don't think Cameron cares about taking on MiIiband, he just doesn't want the main campaign to just consist of three noisy debates, which it is in danger of doing. Hence why he was happy to do them earlier, which the broadcasters ignored.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Cameron will say he's made his final offer and he's sticking to it. Folding would be worse as it opens up obvious attacks on the likely outcome of his EU renegotiation.
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
Yeah, this is a point that people aren't saying much. Even if it was sold as "Miliband vs. Cameron with Cameron empty-chaired", people still would consider it "an audience with Miliband" and the viewership figures wouldn't be nearly as high as an actual debate.
This is why I think they should invite Clegg and Farage.
Cameron doesn't want the debates because they put others (notably Ed) on his level.
By the same logic, a 6-way isn't great for Ed. "I'm not voting for Cowardly Cameron™, so here's my chance to decide which party to vote against him with."
Disappointed to hear that Ed has basically just aping Cameron on the oldie vote. All those bungs in place, except for a tiny tiny % of wealthy oldies who wont get heating payments, and I bet when they have means tested it all, all the admin etc, probably not going to save any money.
Previously Ed Balls especially made it sound like Labour might actually get tough on all those oldie freebies, but no, just more red tape to ensure that a tiny number of people don't get their heating bung.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Watch and learn.
And try to imagine a 1 to 1 debate, with one of the 1s absent and the other 1 is ed. It will be hilarious, I promise you. A vagina monologue, you might say.
The third debate will die in the courts anyway, it breaks every Ofcom rule. Should have been struck down in 2010 until one of the most bizarre legal decisions I can think of. Unlikely to be repeated.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Watch and learn.
And try to imagine a 1 to 1 debate, with one of the 1s absent and the other 1 is ed. It will be hilarious, I promise you. A vagina monologue, you might say.
They'll bring in others instead. There'll be 3 debates in one form or another. The broadcasters spent years trying to get them, and they won't want to open the door to future leaders being able to back out.
Cameron needed to offer them a better carrot than a single shared debate
From Labour's point of view the best ( and most likely ) outcome is that the debate between Miliband and Cameron doesn't take place.
A lot of the damage to Cameron's credibility has already happened and they can now chase him round with chickens. They can mention it at every interview and Tory attacks on Milibands character have been blunted.
The danger for Labour if the debate did take place was that Cameron might come out of it well.
'By the same logic, a 6-way isn't great for Ed. "I'm not voting for Cowardly Cameron™, so here's my chance to decide which party to vote against him with."
Actually Ed would look quite good if he's standing next to the dopey woman from Plaid.
Disappointed to hear that Ed has basically just aping Cameron on the oldie vote. All those bungs in place, except for a tiny tiny % of wealthy oldies who wont get heating payments, and I bet when they have means tested it all, all the admin etc, probably not going to save any money.
Previously Ed Balls especially made it sound like Labour might actually get tough on all those oldie freebies, but no, just more red tape to ensure that a tiny number of people don't get their heating bung.
@isam That is where the crass stupidity of Dave's election team lies. The debates themselves would only be a short term hit. The story is now about Cammo avoiding them.
"The debates themselves would only be a short term hit."
Actually they wouldn't.
I don't think Cameron cares about taking on MiIiband, he just doesn't want the main campaign to just consist of three noisy debates, which it is in danger of doing. Hence why he was happy to do them earlier, which the broadcasters ignored.
As is repeatedly highlighted most people switch off politics until just before the election. If the debates were earlier they would end up being Westminster village wonk affairs which is presumably why Cameron wanted them early but why the TV companies would not.
The last 24 hours on here has been hysterical watching the PB Tories eulogising the "mastery" and "great game" of David Cameron only for it to all fall apart and leave Cameron with nowhere to turn that does not end up making him look particularly foolish and a huge loser.
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair. Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Watch and learn.
And try to imagine a 1 to 1 debate, with one of the 1s absent and the other 1 is ed. It will be hilarious, I promise you. A vagina monologue, you might say.
They'll bring in others instead. There'll be 3 debates in one form or another. The broadcasters spent years trying to get them, and they won't want to open the door to future leaders being able to back out.
Cameron needed to offer them a better carrot than a single shared debate
I'm not sure that would go down well, especially as there is no deadline for Cameron to say he will be attending. The broadcaster can't just say "oh, it looks like he isn't coming, so we'll change the format entirely.l".
Mr. W, Cameron has stated for years he thought the debates should happen earlier and be more spaced out. Broadcasters ignored that.
Of course, he does look evasive, but as I loathe the debates, it doesn't bother me.
The risk isn't one way. Aside from the 'six squabbling idiots' scenario I outlined below, if the media and other politicians bang on about this ad infinitum, it'll annoy voters who want to know about things like taxation rates, the deficit, and so forth. There comes a point where complaining becomes whining.
The broadcasters ignored the PM's early debates because he doesn't determine the time scale and all other parties were signed up to them and Cameron was quite happy, even enthusiastic for campaign debates in 2010.
As a supporter of the Coalition I am dismayed at the PM's stance. The blame lies with him and his idiot advisers. The majority of the public will also know where the problem lies and it is squarely in No10.
As I indicated previously Cameron's advisers on the debates issue need their goolies placed in mangle pour encourager les autres from future election stupidity....
Very true and there are two main advisers to Cameron. Osborne and Crosby. Osborne carries the scars from his daft support for the debates (in that format) at the last GE. So it is puzzling that Crosby agrees. Or does Crosby think that? We will find out at some point in the future. Cameron has a better image overall than Miliband. But one of his few negatives is appearing to look out of touch. This decision reinforces that image.
Comments
Introducing Labour's election slogan...........drum roll..............
"A BETTER PLAN FOR A BETTER FUTURE"
I can't say I'm hugely inspired by that one.
Apparently, before the Euro elections, they invited 8 parties and 6 just didn't show and they went ahead with just 2.
The latest approach, which all the parties have agreed, is that they are going to have head to head debates, whereby lots are drawn and each party debates once.
The second-string Labour message is....
"BRITAIN SUCCEEDS WHEN WORKING FAMILIES SUCCEED"
Katarina Johnson-Thompson has just won Gold in the Pentathlon at the European Championships in Prague.
5000 points.
Beats Jess Ennis's British record. Other records broken on the way.
And she is gutted. Never has a Gold medallist looked so unhappy.
Because she was 1 second away from a World Record points score.
Awesome stuff.
We have no idea what they implications of the "empty chair" will be but we do know that despite all the sound and fury in 2010 the debates made virtually no difference to the outcome so Cam may get away with being "empty chaired" anyway...
Stand firm and be embarrassed as an empty chair.
Kow tow to the broadcasters.
The thing I don't get, is how anyone on his campaign team expected this to turn out differently. All the TV companies had to do was nothing - they've already made the debates offer and they've even said he would be empty chaired.
Utter stupidity.
Posted at 17:21
David Cameron's communications chief Craig Oliver has said: "I made the prime minister's final position clear in my last letter - he is willing to do a seven-way debate in the week beginning March 23. Clearly it is disappointing that you are not prepared to take him up on that offer. I am ready to discuss at your convenience the logistics of making the debate we have suggested happen."
Boris and Hague could do one each.
If the Tories get back in, they could sell the BBC to Sky or ITV?
The first empty chair debate will attract ratings. The second won't. And 90 mins of unmitigated Ed simply isn't going to happen. So the latter two broadcasters still have a problem. So I don't think this is over yet.
Arf - what could possibly go wrong...?
It will not be over for a long time, and what several people on here are missing, is that it will be "the" story until it is.
The PM has now backed himself in a tight dead end of his own foolish making and appears to have the desperate options of either a humiliating climb down or the prospect of being empty chaired. He has gambled on the prestige of the Prime Minister not being snubbed and has lost and he deserved to lose.
In doing so the Prime Minister has appeared churlish, evasive and downright bone headed and worse still has even managed to make Ed Miliband appear credible. Quite a coup for the PM's election team.
It was the fore-runner of the owl programme....
Prolongs the lives of those unfortunate Russkies you wouldn't have a problem sacrificing, by a quarter of an hour.
Fortunately, this time that's not necessary.
Of course, he does look evasive, but as I loathe the debates, it doesn't bother me.
The risk isn't one way. Aside from the 'six squabbling idiots' scenario I outlined below, if the media and other politicians bang on about this ad infinitum, it'll annoy voters who want to know about things like taxation rates, the deficit, and so forth. There comes a point where complaining becomes whining.
CONS it can only be bad for Cameron to debate Farage/Miliband,
UKIP It can only be good for Farage to debate either of them, and
LAB its worth having to debate Farage if Miliband gets to debate Cameron
The fact is we are dancing around minimal percentage boosts here, that I believe are exaggerated
Its probably no bigger than 2/1 that Cameron comes out of a debate with the pair of them and Clegg in a better position than he went in and even then it only matters to a few people that hadn't made up their minds.
This all reminds me of bookmakers fussing around making excuses not to take a bet off someone who is a smallish winner.. and a punter desperate to get a massive bet on when he thinks he has a better edge than he really has
The UUP link was dissolved and the NI Conservatives re-launched in 2012. Their only sitting councillor lost his seat last year and they came bottom in the Euro-elections with 0.7% of the vote. I believe they are intending to stand in May, but seem very unlikely to make any significant impact.
UKIP, of course, also organise in Northern Ireland, with slightly more success.
This is why I think they should invite Clegg and Farage.
The private sector exists out there remember...
Maybe they'll step in and buy Rangers too?
That is where the crass stupidity of Dave's election team lies.
The debates themselves would only be a short term hit. The story is now about Cammo avoiding them.
Labour source dismissive of the idea that Clegg could be involved in the 1-on-1: "He's no more credible as a Prime Minister than you are."
And try to imagine a 1 to 1 debate, with one of the 1s absent and the other 1 is ed. It will be hilarious, I promise you. A vagina monologue, you might say.
Cammo going for a core vote strategy?
A "brave" move given the current state of the polls, but no doubt a cunning master stroke.
Actually they wouldn't.
I don't think Cameron cares about taking on MiIiband, he just doesn't want the main campaign to just consist of three noisy debates, which it is in danger of doing. Hence why he was happy to do them earlier, which the broadcasters ignored.
It is a nasty left wing conspiracy! Dave should declare marshall law and have himself anointed god emperor (as is his birthright)
By the same logic, a 6-way isn't great for Ed. "I'm not voting for Cowardly Cameron™, so here's my chance to decide which party to vote against him with."
15 hours 15 minutes 15 seconds
Previously Ed Balls especially made it sound like Labour might actually get tough on all those oldie freebies, but no, just more red tape to ensure that a tiny number of people don't get their heating bung.
Sign of things to come on cuts?
Cameron needed to offer them a better carrot than a single shared debate
A lot of the damage to Cameron's credibility has already happened and they can now chase him round with chickens. They can mention it at every interview and Tory attacks on Milibands character have been blunted.
The danger for Labour if the debate did take place was that Cameron might come out of it well.
Better we never find out.
'By the same logic, a 6-way isn't great for Ed. "I'm not voting for Cowardly Cameron™, so here's my chance to decide which party to vote against him with."
Actually Ed would look quite good if he's standing next to the dopey woman from Plaid.
Not a bad position to be in if you're claiming to be a leader.
The others follow broadcasters' orders. Doesn't make them look very strong, does it?
As a supporter of the Coalition I am dismayed at the PM's stance. The blame lies with him and his idiot advisers. The majority of the public will also know where the problem lies and it is squarely in No10.
Cameron has a better image overall than Miliband. But one of his few negatives is appearing to look out of touch. This decision reinforces that image.