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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What will be Ed Miliband’s First Question in this week’s PM

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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    edited March 2015
    antifrank said:

    Normally I regard a UKIP shambles as at worst neutral for that party because it at least gets them in the headlines. For the first time in a long time, I wonder whether that might not be the case with the abandonment of hard immigration targets - it seems to undermine UKIP's USP to me and make Nigel Farage look just the same as all the rest of the party leaders.

    I'd be most interested in the views of kippers and kipper-waverers on the subject.

    I don't think this is a shambles at all actually. It highlights Dave's folly in making his immigration pledge and at the same time reinforces the notion that only UKIP is politically willing to control immigration from EU states.
    I really don't consider myself a typical voter though so that assessment may be wrong.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited March 2015
    Plato said:

    OT TV ideas. Just watched the new series Bosch with Titus Welliver [I love him] which was rather good - it's on Amazon Prime, and the new season of House of Cards which was slightly more character intensive, and thought it was great.

    Anyone got others they'd recommend? Thought Damages with Glenn Close was very patchy and tortured plotting.

    The only TV series I watch at the moment are 'The 100' (strong female role models is a bit overdone, but its OK), Blacklist, and Castle.

    I did see a couple of YouTube talks on medieval Germany that were interesting (the two Jean Chandler videos towards the bottom of the playlist below).

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLi12wFJc02EorLReKFPYihIQC-AM5L_y0
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Plato said:

    That's one for Ripley's Believe It Or Not.

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Scott_P said:

    if it's any consolation malc, I think Alex is less of a dud than Nicola, but I wouldn't vote for either.

    Nicola Sturgeon yesterday jettisoned Alex Salmond’s flagship corporation tax cut policy
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article4371641.ece
    Jackie Baillie's face was a peach on Scotland 2015 when she did the usual "SNP want to cut corp tax" and even Sarah Smith had to step in and correct her. Labour will want a refund from their BBC propogandists.
    Nats were always going to lurch hard to the left under Sturgeon. Big chance missed to boost the Scottish private sector.
    In fairness it looks like she isn't going to completely abandon the principle but link "discounts" to companies achieving social targets (like Living Wage or Apprenticeships). There's a lot to be said for that approach.

    5% Corp Tax for any company with a Final Salary Pension scheme sounds like a good idea to me (not that she will go that far).
    Still running a final salary pension scheme and paying corporation tax ?

    Perhaps tax cuts for 5 legged unicorns too ?


    I'm struggling to think of one - BAE switched to 1/100ths , even JLP nixed theirs....

  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:

    @PickardJE: Household incomes returning to pre-crisis levels, more or less. Labour's campaign theme for March? Cost of living crisis.

    Good job there's been no inflation in the last 7 years.
    Are you really not aware that the IFS figures take inflation into account?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    F1: pre-season thoughts:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/testing-thoughts.html

    Just over a week until the first practice session starts in Australia. It'll be extra early this year, with the race kicking off at 5am.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2015
    I'm struggling to see what the substantive difference between this morning's UKIP immigration policy and Cameron's is. Both want a points system - in fact, we already have one. Both want to get net migration down to the sorts of level we used to have. Neither wants a hard cap. The only minor difference is that at the moment we have agreed to free movement of labour within the EU, whereas UKIP want us to leave the EU and negotiate a trade treaty which would obviously have to include something similar.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:

    Normally I regard a UKIP shambles as at worst neutral for that party because it at least gets them in the headlines. For the first time in a long time, I wonder whether that might not be the case with the abandonment of hard immigration targets - it seems to undermine UKIP's USP to me and make Nigel Farage look just the same as all the rest of the party leaders.

    I'd be most interested in the views of kippers and kipper-waverers on the subject.

    I don't think this is a shambles at all actually. It highlights Dave's folly in making his immigration pledge and at the same time reinforces the notion that only UKIP is politically willing to control immigration from EU states.
    I really don't consider myself a typical voter though so that assessment may be wrong.
    S'a funny one. I listened to Nige and thought he sounded fairly reasonable, with a softer approach to immigration than you normally hear from UKIP.

    Then I thought about that and realised if I thought he was being reasonable, then your average kipper must have just had meltdown.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Nabavi, obviously?

    I fail to see why a trade treaty necessitates total freedom of movement.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Nice quote on cricinfo, with the Aussies on 403/5. "By the way, Australia have never won a match after scoring 400."
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    The only minor difference is that at the moment we have agreed to free movement of labour within the EU, whereas UKIP want us to leave the EU and negotiate a trade treaty which would obviously have to include something similar.

    Even that point is the same, because they're both vaguely pretending they're going to negotiate a treaty that would be different.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Dair said:

    Health is a dead issue for Labour in Scotland but they don't seem to understand it.

    The UK Labour Party have failed to adapt to devolution and are stuck in no-man's land.

    Their NHS mantra is especially daft when the worst functioning part in the country is the bit they run in Wales.

    The tuition fee reduction that Miliband was pushing the other day is pointless for a similar reason. A promise of £6,000 in England, yet it's already free in Scotland, so how is he expecting that to help?

    Mansion taxes in London to pay for Scottish nurses as Murphy/Abbott spatted over.

    They are a mess, and Miliband has done nothing to pull them together, Terrible leadership.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    I'm struggling to see what the substantive difference between this morning's UKIP immigration policy and Cameron's is. Both want a points system - in fact, we already have one. Both want to get net migration down to the sorts of level we used to have. Neither wants a hard cap. The only minor difference is that at the moment we have agreed to free movement of labour within the EU, whereas UKIP want us to leave the EU and negotiate a trade treaty which would obviously have to include something similar.

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Some food for thought in the YouGov details.

    LibDems on 4% in London. They got 22% IN 2010.

    London - Labour 39, Con 35 - in 2010 it was Labour 37, Con 35

    Greens getting a big lift 1.6% 2010, 10% in 2015. Presumably mostly from the LibDems.

    Tories ahead of Labour 37-29 in the 18-24 age bracket. So much for Ed's master stroke on tuition fees...

    2010 LibDems peeling off 34% Labour - 16% Tories - Labour's best for a while?

    "Tories ahead of Labour 37-29 in the 18-24 age bracket. So much for Ed's master stroke on tuition fees..."

    I'd be extremely sceptical of this poll sub-sample.
    From memory, 1) that subsample tends to bounce around a lot and 2) it's usually (quite strongly) pro- Labour - the Greens also do well, and UKIP poorly.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    isam said:

    I'm struggling to see what the substantive difference between this morning's UKIP immigration policy and Cameron's is. Both want a points system - in fact, we already have one. Both want to get net migration down to the sorts of level we used to have. Neither wants a hard cap. The only minor difference is that at the moment we have agreed to free movement of labour within the EU, whereas UKIP want us to leave the EU and negotiate a trade treaty which would obviously have to include something similar.

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for
    You'd be in control of the treaty you'd negotiate that would end up being the same?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2015

    Mr. Nabavi, obviously?

    I fail to see why a trade treaty necessitates total freedom of movement.

    Because we would have as an absolute priority a free market in services, which isn't really practical without free movement of labour, and because there is no realistic prospect of a special exception being made by our EU friends compared with Switzerland, Norway etc.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:

    Normally I regard a UKIP shambles as at worst neutral for that party because it at least gets them in the headlines. For the first time in a long time, I wonder whether that might not be the case with the abandonment of hard immigration targets - it seems to undermine UKIP's USP to me and make Nigel Farage look just the same as all the rest of the party leaders.

    I'd be most interested in the views of kippers and kipper-waverers on the subject.

    I don't think this is a shambles at all actually. It highlights Dave's folly in making his immigration pledge and at the same time reinforces the notion that only UKIP is politically willing to control immigration from EU states.
    I really don't consider myself a typical voter though so that assessment may be wrong.
    S'a funny one. I listened to Nige and thought he sounded fairly reasonable, with a softer approach to immigration than you normally hear from UKIP.

    Then I thought about that and realised if I thought he was being reasonable, then your average kipper must have just had meltdown.
    I wonder if that toxicity rating is beginning to become a worry at Kipper HQ.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    edited March 2015
    Incidentally, hugely enjoying the Marc Morris biography of Edward I [A Great and Terrible King]. Was going to read five minutes yesterday evening and ended up reading for an hour, only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Nabavi, if you approach battle trying to mitigate your defeat then you've already lost.

    We are not Norway or Switzerland. Actively leaving the EU only to 'negotiate' our way into an almost identical position would be an act of contempt for democracy and the will of the people.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    I'm struggling to see what the substantive difference between this morning's UKIP immigration policy and Cameron's is. Both want a points system - in fact, we already have one. Both want to get net migration down to the sorts of level we used to have. Neither wants a hard cap. The only minor difference is that at the moment we have agreed to free movement of labour within the EU, whereas UKIP want us to leave the EU and negotiate a trade treaty which would obviously have to include something similar.

    Dave's integrity on immigration is in tatters with his "No ifs, no buts" 'promise'. You can file it with "cast iron guarantee" too. At least Clegg came out and apologised for the tuition fee pledge !
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    isam said:

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for

    Ah, the Alex Salmond line. Whatever we want, no matter how incoherent, our negotiating partners have to accept.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Pulpstar said:

    Mid price with SPIN on the Aussie innings is 444.

    Do I, shall I, Buy?

    Warner out so now may be the time to buy - runs are generally a sell though. Not for me :)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Pulpstar said:

    Dave's integrity on immigration is in tatters with his "No ifs, no buts" 'promise'.

    Yes, it was trumped by reality. That is exactly the point I was making.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Proven UK influence in the EU:

    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh
    George Osborne on European Court of Justice’s decision to annul ECB location policy: "This is a major win for Britain"

    Case brought by the UK found in favour of the UK.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    BTW, thanks to those of you who suggested things to do in California, on the thread yesterday evening. I only caught up with it this morning. We're going to have a re-planning sesh this evening!
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,680
    In spite of the polling excitement of the last seven days, the SPIN market has not changed at all and still stands at Con 283, Lab 275, LD 28, UKIP 7, SNP 37.5. Curious.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    The only minor difference is that at the moment we have agreed to free movement of labour within the EU, whereas UKIP want us to leave the EU and negotiate a trade treaty which would obviously have to include something similar.

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Barnesian said:

    In spite of the polling excitement of the last seven days, the SPIN market has not changed at all and still stands at Con 283, Lab 275, LD 28, UKIP 7, SNP 37.5. Curious.

    Priced in?
  • ... only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    I like that show! Hot chicks, elemental violence, scifi, battles, human nature issues and lesbian kissing all rolled into one. What's not to like? I want the Mt Weather leadership to get bloodeagled soon.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    isam said:

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for

    Ah, the Alex Salmond line. Whatever we want, no matter how incoherent, our negotiating partners have to accept.
    The difference between Salmond and the Farage/Cameron arguments is that we have historical examples for both.

    When Ireland left the UK, it retained currency union, free movement, free trade, special status for it's nationals.

    With the EU, we know from how the EFTA countries deal with the EU exactly how the EU expects any trading partners within Europe to behave.

    But don't let your personal bias distract you from hard examples from history.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Indigo said:

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.

    The nonsense we need to stop is the ludicrous suggestion that South Korea, South Africa, Mexico, Chile, Israel and Jordan have full access to the EU market on the same terms as the UK, Switzerland and Norway.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Pulpstar said:

    Dave's integrity on immigration is in tatters with his "No ifs, no buts" 'promise'.

    Yes, it was trumped by reality. That is exactly the point I was making.
    He didn't have the faintest chance of doing it even with a majority Conservative government. Making promises you have no way of keeping is usually called "a lie".
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Patrick, ahem, I fear you've seen many more episodes than me. Small spoiler in that (although I'm not especially put off by the prospect of ladies getting frisky with one another).
  • I'm struggling to see what the substantive difference between this morning's UKIP immigration policy and Cameron's is. Both want a points system - in fact, we already have one. Both want to get net migration down to the sorts of level we used to have. Neither wants a hard cap. The only minor difference is that at the moment we have agreed to free movement of labour within the EU, whereas UKIP want us to leave the EU and negotiate a trade treaty which would obviously have to include something similar.

    “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Indigo said:

    The only minor difference is that at the moment we have agreed to free movement of labour within the EU, whereas UKIP want us to leave the EU and negotiate a trade treaty which would obviously have to include something similar.

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.
    All European countries that have a free trade deal with the EU are in Schengen. Including Iceland.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.

    The nonsense we need to stop is the ludicrous suggestion that South Korea, South Africa, Mexico, Chile, Israel and Jordan have full access to the EU market on the same terms as the UK, Switzerland and Norway.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
    The agreement would be the second largest free trade agreement, second only to the North American Free Trade Agreement.[1] It is also the most comprehensive the EU has ever negotiated: import duties are near eliminated on all produce and there is deep liberalisation in trade in services. It includes provisions for intellectual property (including geographical indications), public procurement, competition, transparency of regulation and sustainable development. There are also specific commitments against non-tariff obstacles on sectors such as automobiles, pharmaceuticals and electronics.[3]
    Sounds terribly restrictive.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited March 2015
    Tee hee. http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/farage-offers-to-vet-every-immigrant-2015030495919

    "There will be some English history, a trick question about Chinese food and then I put on the latex glove. Then they have to neck a pint of John Smith’s in less than eight seconds, while I march around the room shouting absolute filth."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    Pulpstar said:

    Dave's integrity on immigration is in tatters with his "No ifs, no buts" 'promise'.

    Yes, it was trumped by reality. That is exactly the point I was making.
    It was a reality that anyone with any sense could see coming a mile off. Far more visible than the Lib Dems implementing a hike in tuition fees as a junior coalition partner...

    If I had to guess, net migration would probably be around 100,000 under UKIP. Perhaps a bit over, maybe a bit under. We'd probably be in trouble with the EU over not allowing unskilled Frenchmen to stay in the country, but they break so many rules it would be unlikely to have any actual effect. However in any given UKIP year it may be 80,000 or could be 120,000 - failed asylum seekers would be sent back to wherever they came methinks. But skilled migrants of the sort @rcs1000 is always going on about would be welcomed, and it is sensible not to put a cap on those.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Dair said:

    Yesterday's YouGov tables are out. They asked a 'most important issues' question too.

    1. Most important issues facing the country: immigration (50%), economy (46%), health (42%)

    2. Most important issues facing my family: economy (43%), health (38%), pensions (29%)

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/ss0m2jmr6y/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-030315.pdf

    Scotland
    As with yesterday's Mori (first question), when compared to other UK regions Scotland has the highest numbers citing the economy, and the lowest numbers citing health/nhs.

    Perhaps Labour need to be talking more about the economy?
    Health is a dead issue for Labour in Scotland but they don't seem to understand it.

    NHS contact is rated 96% good or excellent.
    Scotland is covered in shiny new hospitals and clinics.
    Labour spent the referendum claiming the NHS was safe with a No vote.
    NHS Wales is such an easy target for the massive SNP ground game.

    But they keep going, trying to manufacture a "crisis" no-one believes, insulting to the intelligence of Scots and the achievements of staff.
    Jenny Marra's girning face on the news every night whinging about a non crisis is enough to finish them off. Last night it was about a handful of people having to wait 12 hours in A&E.
    Bit rich of a Nat to complain of others' shroud waving over the NHS considering exactly that dominated the final weeks of the SNP's independence campaign.....
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    The only minor difference is that at the moment we have agreed to free movement of labour within the EU, whereas UKIP want us to leave the EU and negotiate a trade treaty which would obviously have to include something similar.

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.
    All European countries that have a free trade deal with the EU are in Schengen. Including Iceland.
    So this would be the European South Korean and South Africans ?

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:

    Normally I regard a UKIP shambles as at worst neutral for that party because it at least gets them in the headlines. For the first time in a long time, I wonder whether that might not be the case with the abandonment of hard immigration targets - it seems to undermine UKIP's USP to me and make Nigel Farage look just the same as all the rest of the party leaders.

    I'd be most interested in the views of kippers and kipper-waverers on the subject.

    I don't think this is a shambles at all actually. It highlights Dave's folly in making his immigration pledge and at the same time reinforces the notion that only UKIP is politically willing to control immigration from EU states.
    I really don't consider myself a typical voter though so that assessment may be wrong.
    S'a funny one. I listened to Nige and thought he sounded fairly reasonable, with a softer approach to immigration than you normally hear from UKIP.

    Then I thought about that and realised if I thought he was being reasonable, then your average kipper must have just had meltdown.
    In reality nothing had changed, and it is the difference between the strawman/outlierkipper that people have been trying to convince was the norm and the reality that our ideas are generally sensible that is being discussed/has dawned on people
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited March 2015
    It's on my Watch Next List. Have you tried Continuum, The Flash, Forever, Constantine, Agent Carter or Gotham?

    Some good yarns in there with a bent towards sci-fi/sci-fantasy or Marvel.

    EDIT - if you like hot girls and lesbian kissing - try Lost Girl, the female lead is a sex monster = a succubus.
    A succubus is a female demon or supernatural entity in folklore (traced back to medieval legend) that appears in dreams and takes the form of a woman in order to seduce men, usually through sexual activity. The male counterpart is the incubus.
    Patrick said:

    ... only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    I like that show! Hot chicks, elemental violence, scifi, battles, human nature issues and lesbian kissing all rolled into one. What's not to like? I want the Mt Weather leadership to get bloodeagled soon.
  • Plato said:

    OT TV ideas. Just watched the new series Bosch with Titus Welliver [I love him] which was rather good - it's on Amazon Prime, and the new season of House of Cards which was slightly more character intensive, and thought it was great.

    Anyone got others they'd recommend? Thought Damages with Glenn Close was very patchy and tortured plotting.

    I was thinking about "scandal" till i saw it was created by the same idiot who did "how to get away with murder"

    have you tried "perception" yet - it gets a little repetitive, but is pretty consistent.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Indigo said:

    He didn't have the faintest chance of doing it even with a majority Conservative government. Making promises you have no way of keeping is usually called "a lie".

    It was a mistake, certainly. But your first sentence is clearly wrong. It was not expected that the UK would be the only country in the EU creating so many jobs.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for

    Ah, the Alex Salmond line. Whatever we want, no matter how incoherent, our negotiating partners have to accept.
    Keep playing the strawman if you like, just makes you look foolish
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2015
    What with Lord Ashcroft ejaculating further polls shortly you simply have to admire the prodigious nature of the man, not forgetting of course that he's enjoying sixty-nine all day.

    Happy birthday Lord A - one short of three score and ten today. :smile:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    edited March 2015
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.

    The nonsense we need to stop is the ludicrous suggestion that South Korea, South Africa, Mexico, Chile, Israel and Jordan have full access to the EU market on the same terms as the UK, Switzerland and Norway.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
    The agreement would be the second largest free trade agreement, second only to the North American Free Trade Agreement.[1] It is also the most comprehensive the EU has ever negotiated: import duties are near eliminated on all produce and there is deep liberalisation in trade in services. It includes provisions for intellectual property (including geographical indications), public procurement, competition, transparency of regulation and sustainable development. There are also specific commitments against non-tariff obstacles on sectors such as automobiles, pharmaceuticals and electronics.[3]
    Sounds terribly restrictive.

    People come under the category of goods and services though and can't be separated out in free trade agreements. We've been told this repeatedly !

    As an aside, smartest people on earth the Koreans I reckon for what it's worth.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    isam said:

    isam said:

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for

    Ah, the Alex Salmond line. Whatever we want, no matter how incoherent, our negotiating partners have to accept.
    Keep playing the strawman if you like, just makes you look foolish
    Well, tell me what the terms of the EU-UK trade treaty will be, since you seem to think you know better than I do.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    I reckon the one immigrant we have in our company would most likely be a nailed on UKIP voter btw ;)
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited March 2015
    Patrick said:

    ... only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    I like that show! Hot chicks, elemental violence, scifi, battles, human nature issues and lesbian kissing all rolled into one. What's not to like? I want the Mt Weather leadership to get bloodeagled soon.
    The 100 had a very shaky start due to appalling writing with the standard plot device being completely out of character actions. It has fortunately been worth sticking through, as it is a decent hard Sci-Fi show now even if it still has faults.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411

    isam said:

    isam said:

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for

    Ah, the Alex Salmond line. Whatever we want, no matter how incoherent, our negotiating partners have to accept.
    Keep playing the strawman if you like, just makes you look foolish
    Well, tell me what the terms of the EU-UK trade treaty will be, since you seem to think you know better than I do.
    Similiar terms to the South Korean-EU trade agreement would sound about right for the majority of the British population.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Plato said:

    It's on my Watch Next List. Have you tried Continuum, The Flash, Forever, Constantine, Agent Carter or Gotham?

    Some good yarns in there with a bent towards sci-fi/sci-fantasy or Marvel.

    EDIT - if you like hot girls and lesbian kissing - try Lost Girl, the female lead is a sex monster = a succubus.

    A succubus is a female demon or supernatural entity in folklore (traced back to medieval legend) that appears in dreams and takes the form of a woman in order to seduce men, usually through sexual activity. The male counterpart is the incubus.
    Patrick said:

    ... only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    I like that show! Hot chicks, elemental violence, scifi, battles, human nature issues and lesbian kissing all rolled into one. What's not to like? I want the Mt Weather leadership to get bloodeagled soon.


    The best genre show on TV at the moment is Orphan Black.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited March 2015
    I watched S1-4 of Scandal and it's very silly - like the West Wing crossed with Dallas. It can be entertaining if you aren't looking for brain food.

    Haven't tried Perception - will check it out. Thanx.

    I found Helix a slog and not very convincing. I watched the first season or so and gave in.

    Heard great things about Nashville and so added that to the pile. I'm not impressed by Better Call Saul - I'll try the pilot again and see if I warm up to it.

    EDIT - I love Revenge, it's so ridiculous but oddly compelling.

    Plato said:

    OT TV ideas. Just watched the new series Bosch with Titus Welliver [I love him] which was rather good - it's on Amazon Prime, and the new season of House of Cards which was slightly more character intensive, and thought it was great.

    Anyone got others they'd recommend? Thought Damages with Glenn Close was very patchy and tortured plotting.

    I was thinking about "scandal" till i saw it was created by the same idiot who did "how to get away with murder"

    have you tried "perception" yet - it gets a little repetitive, but is pretty consistent.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for

    Ah, the Alex Salmond line. Whatever we want, no matter how incoherent, our negotiating partners have to accept.
    Keep playing the strawman if you like, just makes you look foolish
    Well, tell me what the terms of the EU-UK trade treaty will be, since you seem to think you know better than I do.
    Haha just face facts, Ukip will always outmanoeuvre your party on this issue because they have the balls to take matters into their own hands rather than be at the beck and call of Germany
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    "Chancellor defends HSBC as a ‘very important bank’ but repeatedly fails to answer questions about his conversations with bank’s former boss"

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/mar/04/george-osborne-dodges-questions-over-hsbcs-stephen-green
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited March 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for

    Ah, the Alex Salmond line. Whatever we want, no matter how incoherent, our negotiating partners have to accept.
    Keep playing the strawman if you like, just makes you look foolish
    Well, tell me what the terms of the EU-UK trade treaty will be, since you seem to think you know better than I do.
    Similiar terms to the South Korean-EU trade agreement would sound about right for the majority of the British population.
    But clearly not for the EU which will hold the cards in terms of negotiation and would be perfectly happy for the UK FInancial Services industry to ship out after UK withdrawl. It might also have an impact on Pharma which would basically mean the entire UK economy being gutted.

    There is no European country the EU has a free trade deal which is not required to have free movement of labour.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Indigo said:

    Sounds terribly restrictive.

    Read the last sentence. Ask yourself whether there is any customs paperwork involved. And ask yourself whether there is a free market in insurance. Etc etc etc.

    Yes there are various free trade agreements, and a jolly good thing too. But they are not remotely comparable to the hassle-free integration that we (and Switzerland and Norway) have in doing business with the rest of the EU.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I have to try The Walking Dead again - I spent all the first two episodes laughing at the zombie cliches and appalling plot holes. I simply couldn't take it seriously.

    It makes World War Z look credible. It keeps getting rave ratings so clearly it's me!
    Dair said:

    Patrick said:

    ... only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    I like that show! Hot chicks, elemental violence, scifi, battles, human nature issues and lesbian kissing all rolled into one. What's not to like? I want the Mt Weather leadership to get bloodeagled soon.
    The 100 had a very shaky start due to appalling writing with the standard plot device being completely out of character actions. It has fortunately been worth sticking through, as it is a decent hard Sci-Fi show now even if it still has faults.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11448694/George-Osborne-Immigration-target-only-an-ambition.html

    Osborne criticizes UKIP for dropping their cap at the same time as the Conservatives drop their immigration cap admit their target is an ambition.

    Principled stand that man!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,386
    Pulpstar said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.

    The nonsense we need to stop is the ludicrous suggestion that South Korea, South Africa, Mexico, Chile, Israel and Jordan have full access to the EU market on the same terms as the UK, Switzerland and Norway.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
    The agreement would be the second largest free trade agreement, second only to the North American Free Trade Agreement.[1] It is also the most comprehensive the EU has ever negotiated: import duties are near eliminated on all produce and there is deep liberalisation in trade in services. It includes provisions for intellectual property (including geographical indications), public procurement, competition, transparency of regulation and sustainable development. There are also specific commitments against non-tariff obstacles on sectors such as automobiles, pharmaceuticals and electronics.[3]
    Sounds terribly restrictive.
    People come under the category of goods and services though and can't be separated out in free trade agreements. We've been told this repeatedly !

    As an aside, smartest people on earth the Koreans I reckon for what it's worth.

    It's something to be done with you rich aristocrats and your ejaculations....

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2015

    Indigo said:

    Sounds terribly restrictive.

    Read the last sentence. Ask yourself whether there is any customs paperwork involved. And ask yourself whether there is a free market in insurance. Etc etc etc.

    Yes there are various free trade agreements, and a jolly good thing too. But they are not remotely comparable to the hassle-free integration that we (and Switzerland and Norway) have in doing business with the rest of the EU.
    Maybe, maybe not. Maybe its a price the voters would be prepared to pay. Maybe they should be offered that choice without all this embarrassing EU cheer-leading, which incidentally is why no one trusts the conservative referendum pledge, they can hear the cheer-leading now, and its two years away.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11448694/George-Osborne-Immigration-target-only-an-ambition.html

    Osborne criticizes UKIP for dropping their cap at the same time as the Conservatives drop their immigration cap admit their target is an ambition.

    Principled stand that man!

    'If we don't make good on our ambition, kick us out in five years time' ?!?!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited March 2015
    And finally, Ester... William Shatner is guesting in Haven S5 [King's The Colorado Kid adaptation] this year. I'm officially intrigued. I loved him in Boston Legal.

    EDIT for viewers of The Good Wife - the Colin Sweeney character does an AMAZINGLY funny piss take of Russell Brand this week. I honked with laughter and rewound it several times. enstarz.com/articles/68141/20150219/the-good-wife-season-6-spoilers-colin-sweeney-to-play-a-dual-role-in-upcoming-episode-video.htm
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Indigo said:

    Maybe, maybe not. Maybe its a price the voters would be prepared to pay. Maybe they should be offered that choice w

    Yes, they should, and if enough people vote Conservative they will be offered that choice.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited March 2015
    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    We would be in control of one and we aren't the other is the difference you are looking for

    Ah, the Alex Salmond line. Whatever we want, no matter how incoherent, our negotiating partners have to accept.
    Keep playing the strawman if you like, just makes you look foolish
    Well, tell me what the terms of the EU-UK trade treaty will be, since you seem to think you know better than I do.
    Similiar terms to the South Korean-EU trade agreement would sound about right for the majority of the British population.
    But clearly not for the EU which will hold the cards in terms of negotiation and would be perfectly happy for the UK FInancial Services industry to ship out after UK withdrawl. It might also have an impact on Pharma which would basically mean the entire UK economy being gutted.

    There is no European country the EU has a free trade deal which is not required to have free movement of labour.
    I don't know why you think the EU would 'hold all the cards'. The UK has a trade deficit with the EU, and would be the EU's largest trading partner.

    The IEA recently published a pamphlet setting out four options for UK Brexit.

    http://www.iea.org.uk/in-the-media/press-release/iea-presents-four-possible-paths-for-britain-outside-the-eu
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Nice to see timmy FOTP getting slapped down by John Rentoul on twitter.

    Dubai sun must have fried his remaining cells.
  • TGOHF said:

    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:

    Normally I regard a UKIP shambles as at worst neutral for that party because it at least gets them in the headlines. For the first time in a long time, I wonder whether that might not be the case with the abandonment of hard immigration targets - it seems to undermine UKIP's USP to me and make Nigel Farage look just the same as all the rest of the party leaders.

    I'd be most interested in the views of kippers and kipper-waverers on the subject.

    I don't think this is a shambles at all actually. It highlights Dave's folly in making his immigration pledge and at the same time reinforces the notion that only UKIP is politically willing to control immigration from EU states.
    I really don't consider myself a typical voter though so that assessment may be wrong.
    S'a funny one. I listened to Nige and thought he sounded fairly reasonable, with a softer approach to immigration than you normally hear from UKIP.

    Then I thought about that and realised if I thought he was being reasonable, then your average kipper must have just had meltdown.
    I wonder if that toxicity rating is beginning to become a worry at Kipper HQ.
    I don't think Kippers are self aware enough to notice how they're perceived. They think they and their leader are enormously popular. I cannot imagine why.
  • TGOHF said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I take it we've not had the TNS poll yet?

    Who finances this poll ?
    Is it BRMB (as was) or BoyRMBoy as they say in Kipper Tie City?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    http://labourlist.org/2015/03/the-harsh-uncomfortable-truths-about-child-abuse-in-oxfordshire-and-rotherham/

    This article by Sunny Hundal is well worth a read as it reveals material not yet given the light of airtime and shows the readiness by people in the Council to shut down debate.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Sounds terribly restrictive.

    Read the last sentence. Ask yourself whether there is any customs paperwork involved. And ask yourself whether there is a free market in insurance. Etc etc etc.

    Yes there are various free trade agreements, and a jolly good thing too. But they are not remotely comparable to the hassle-free integration that we (and Switzerland and Norway) have in doing business with the rest of the EU.
    Maybe, maybe not. Maybe its a price the voters would be prepared to pay. Maybe they should be offered that choice without all this embarrassing EU cheer-leading, which incidentally is why no one trusts the conservative referendum pledge, they can hear the cheer-leading now, and its two years away.
    You put yourself firmly in la-la-land when you suggest that the Conservatives are "EU cheer-leading". The Conservative party is divided in between (1) who don't like the EU and would like to leave it as soon as possible and (2) those who don't like the EU and who haven't yet decided whether they would like to leave it. One of the main reasons why the Conservatives would fail to secure significant concessions from the rest of the EU in any negotiations is because most other EU leaders take the view that there's not much point in offering them, given the current trajectory of that party.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Mr. Nabavi, obviously?

    I fail to see why a trade treaty necessitates total freedom of movement.

    Because we would have as an absolute priority a free market in services, which isn't really practical without free movement of labour, and because there is no realistic prospect of a special exception being made by our EU friends compared with Switzerland, Norway etc.
    If UKIP won an election, they would almost certainly consider having immigration controls with the EU as being more of a priority than a free market in services.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    I briefly temped for Rotherham Council on their BT public=private thingy.

    Top holiday destination for staff seemed to be Cuba :D
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    antifrank said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Sounds terribly restrictive.

    Read the last sentence. Ask yourself whether there is any customs paperwork involved. And ask yourself whether there is a free market in insurance. Etc etc etc.

    Yes there are various free trade agreements, and a jolly good thing too. But they are not remotely comparable to the hassle-free integration that we (and Switzerland and Norway) have in doing business with the rest of the EU.
    Maybe, maybe not. Maybe its a price the voters would be prepared to pay. Maybe they should be offered that choice without all this embarrassing EU cheer-leading, which incidentally is why no one trusts the conservative referendum pledge, they can hear the cheer-leading now, and its two years away.
    You put yourself firmly in la-la-land when you suggest that the Conservatives are "EU cheer-leading". The Conservative party is divided in between (1) who don't like the EU and would like to leave it as soon as possible and (2) those who don't like the EU and who haven't yet decided whether they would like to leave it. One of the main reasons why the Conservatives would fail to secure significant concessions from the rest of the EU in any negotiations is because most other EU leaders take the view that there's not much point in offering them, given the current trajectory of that party.
    You don't think its because Cameron has hold them he wouldn't countenance leaving before he even got to the negotiating table ?

    Can you imagine him buying a house.

    Cam: We love this house and we are definitely buying it come what may
    Seller: Good, £400,000
    Cam: Now can we talk about the price ?
    Seller: Yes, its £400,000
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.

    The nonsense we need to stop is the ludicrous suggestion that South Korea, South Africa, Mexico, Chile, Israel and Jordan have full access to the EU market on the same terms as the UK, Switzerland and Norway.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
    The agreement would be the second largest free trade agreement, second only to the North American Free Trade Agreement.[1] It is also the most comprehensive the EU has ever negotiated: import duties are near eliminated on all produce and there is deep liberalisation in trade in services. It includes provisions for intellectual property (including geographical indications), public procurement, competition, transparency of regulation and sustainable development. There are also specific commitments against non-tariff obstacles on sectors such as automobiles, pharmaceuticals and electronics.[3]
    Sounds terribly restrictive.
    People come under the category of goods and services though and can't be separated out in free trade agreements. We've been told this repeatedly !

    As an aside, smartest people on earth the Koreans I reckon for what it's worth.
    It's something to be done with you rich aristocrats and your ejaculations....



    It's the well heeled Lord Pulpstar is it ?

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Indigo said:

    antifrank said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Sounds terribly restrictive.

    Read the last sentence. Ask yourself whether there is any customs paperwork involved. And ask yourself whether there is a free market in insurance. Etc etc etc.

    Yes there are various free trade agreements, and a jolly good thing too. But they are not remotely comparable to the hassle-free integration that we (and Switzerland and Norway) have in doing business with the rest of the EU.
    Maybe, maybe not. Maybe its a price the voters would be prepared to pay. Maybe they should be offered that choice without all this embarrassing EU cheer-leading, which incidentally is why no one trusts the conservative referendum pledge, they can hear the cheer-leading now, and its two years away.
    You put yourself firmly in la-la-land when you suggest that the Conservatives are "EU cheer-leading". The Conservative party is divided in between (1) who don't like the EU and would like to leave it as soon as possible and (2) those who don't like the EU and who haven't yet decided whether they would like to leave it. One of the main reasons why the Conservatives would fail to secure significant concessions from the rest of the EU in any negotiations is because most other EU leaders take the view that there's not much point in offering them, given the current trajectory of that party.
    You don't think its because Cameron has hold them he wouldn't countenance leaving before he even got to the negotiating table ?

    Can you imagine him buying a house.

    Cam: We love this house and we are definitely buying it come what may
    Seller: Good, £400,000
    Cam: Now can we talk about the price ?
    Seller: Yes, its £400,000
    David Cameron certainly hasn't helped his own cause on that front. But no, the main reason is because the rest of the EU thinks that the right of centre in the UK is probably heading for the exit anyway, so why waste the time or the energy on getting them to a point where they would be comfortable staying in when there are more immediate problems to be dealing with?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Labour's Pink Van Parked on Double Yellow Line, Again http://order-order.com/2015/03/04/labours-pink-van-parked-on-double-yellow-line-again/

    Coming to a speed camera near you.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited March 2015
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Nabavi, obviously?

    I fail to see why a trade treaty necessitates total freedom of movement.

    Because we would have as an absolute priority a free market in services, which isn't really practical without free movement of labour, and because there is no realistic prospect of a special exception being made by our EU friends compared with Switzerland, Norway etc.
    If UKIP won an election, they would almost certainly consider having immigration controls with the EU as being more of a priority than a free market in services.
    The Tory view of our relationship with the eu after leaving seems to see us as Rodders to Merkels Del Boy... Still going back to Nelson Mandela House the day after finally breaking the shackles w a new job and wife

    No confidence in our own ability.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Sean_F said:

    If UKIP won an election, they would almost certainly consider having immigration controls with the EU as being more of a priority than a free market in services.

    They might start off like that, until the economic realities were made clear to them by the stream of business leaders who would be knocking at the door.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF said:

    Nice to see timmy FOTP getting slapped down by John Rentoul on twitter.

    Dubai sun must have fried his remaining cells.

    Oh that's where he went......I see the tune hasn't changed.....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited March 2015
    Plato said:

    It's on my Watch Next List. Have you tried Continuum, The Flash, Forever, Constantine, Agent Carter or Gotham?

    Some good yarns in there with a bent towards sci-fi/sci-fantasy or Marvel.

    EDIT - if you like hot girls and lesbian kissing - try Lost Girl, the female lead is a sex monster = a succubus.

    A succubus is a female demon or supernatural entity in folklore (traced back to medieval legend) that appears in dreams and takes the form of a woman in order to seduce men, usually through sexual activity. The male counterpart is the incubus.
    Patrick said:

    ... only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    I like that show! Hot chicks, elemental violence, scifi, battles, human nature issues and lesbian kissing all rolled into one. What's not to like? I want the Mt Weather leadership to get bloodeagled soon.


    I wouldn't bother with Gotham TBH....it is big budget, but all over the place.

    Somebody said Perception, at times it is pretty good and had potential, but loses its way and has recently been canned.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Sean_F said:

    If UKIP won an election, they would almost certainly consider having immigration controls with the EU as being more of a priority than a free market in services.

    They might start off like that, until the economic realities were made clear to them by the stream of business leaders who would be knocking at the door.
    I believe it's that sort of view that the views of the business elite trump the views of the voters that has cost the Conservatives so heavily.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,386
    edited March 2015
    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.

    The nonsense we need to stop is the ludicrous suggestion that South Korea, South Africa, Mexico, Chile, Israel and Jordan have full access to the EU market on the same terms as the UK, Switzerland and Norway.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
    The agreement would be the second largest free trade agreement, second only to the North American Free Trade Agreement.[1] It is also the most comprehensive the EU has ever negotiated: import duties are near eliminated on all produce and there is deep liberalisation in trade in services. It includes provisions for intellectual property (including geographical indications), public procurement, competition, transparency of regulation and sustainable development. There are also specific commitments against non-tariff obstacles on sectors such as automobiles, pharmaceuticals and electronics.[3]
    Sounds terribly restrictive.
    People come under the category of goods and services though and can't be separated out in free trade agreements. We've been told this repeatedly !

    As an aside, smartest people on earth the Koreans I reckon for what it's worth.
    It's something to be done with you rich aristocrats and your ejaculations....

    It's the well heeled Lord Pulpstar is it ?



    :blush:

    What can I say. It's 11am and I'm on my second bottle of Gin... You know what it's like. :smiley:

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited March 2015
    I think the Snake and Penguin are the only good characters but it has pace. I can't stand the Alfred or Officer Gordon's sidekick. He's so ham he'd be at home with green eggs.

    Have you tried Sleepy Hollow - Tom Mison is great as Ichabod Crane.

    Plato said:

    It's on my Watch Next List. Have you tried Continuum, The Flash, Forever, Constantine, Agent Carter or Gotham?

    Some good yarns in there with a bent towards sci-fi/sci-fantasy or Marvel.

    EDIT - if you like hot girls and lesbian kissing - try Lost Girl, the female lead is a sex monster = a succubus.

    A succubus is a female demon or supernatural entity in folklore (traced back to medieval legend) that appears in dreams and takes the form of a woman in order to seduce men, usually through sexual activity. The male counterpart is the incubus.
    Patrick said:

    ... only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    I like that show! Hot chicks, elemental violence, scifi, battles, human nature issues and lesbian kissing all rolled into one. What's not to like? I want the Mt Weather leadership to get bloodeagled soon.
    I wouldn't bother with Gotham TBH....it is big budget, but all over the place.

    Somebody said Perception, at times it is pretty good and had potential, but loses its way and has recently been canned.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Sean_F said:

    If UKIP won an election, they would almost certainly consider having immigration controls with the EU as being more of a priority than a free market in services.

    They might start off like that, until the economic realities were made clear to them by the stream of business leaders who would be knocking at the door.
    Independence is bound to be a bumpy ride. The Irish discovered that in 1922. I think that Alex Salmond should have made that clear during the Scottish referendum campaign. You have to decide if the pros outweigh the cons.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    If UKIP won an election, they would almost certainly consider having immigration controls with the EU as being more of a priority than a free market in services.

    They might start off like that, until the economic realities were made clear to them by the stream of business leaders who would be knocking at the door.
    I believe it's that sort of view that the views of the business elite trump the views of the voters that has cost the Conservatives so heavily.
    This may be true, but a party that tried to ignore what the elites thought would happen and do what the voters thought was best wouldn't stay popular with the voters for long once some of the things the elites said would happen happened.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    Understatement of the year award

    "Experts have now said that ISIS misinterprets the Koran in order to wage jihad "
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited March 2015
    Plato said:

    I think the Snake and Penguin are the only good characters but it has pace. I can't stand the Alfred or Officer Gordon's sidekick. He's so ham he'd be at home with green eggs.

    Have you tried Sleepy Hollow - Tom Mison is great as Ichabod Crane.

    Plato said:

    It's on my Watch Next List. Have you tried Continuum, The Flash, Forever, Constantine, Agent Carter or Gotham?

    Some good yarns in there with a bent towards sci-fi/sci-fantasy or Marvel.

    EDIT - if you like hot girls and lesbian kissing - try Lost Girl, the female lead is a sex monster = a succubus.

    A succubus is a female demon or supernatural entity in folklore (traced back to medieval legend) that appears in dreams and takes the form of a woman in order to seduce men, usually through sexual activity. The male counterpart is the incubus.
    Patrick said:

    ... only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    I like that show! Hot chicks, elemental violence, scifi, battles, human nature issues and lesbian kissing all rolled into one. What's not to like? I want the Mt Weather leadership to get bloodeagled soon.
    I wouldn't bother with Gotham TBH....it is big budget, but all over the place.

    Somebody said Perception, at times it is pretty good and had potential, but loses its way and has recently been canned.


    My problem is I don't think it knows what it is trying to be. Is it a weekly procedural with Gordon and his partner solving crimes? Is it some big wide ranging story about the mob? Is it about Bruce Wayne? It is basically loads of money has been thrown at it, big cast, and IMO the result is a so far it is all over the place.

    Some weeks it is a standard procedural, some it is all about the mob, now we are on to the Wayne Enterprises corruption.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Yes, I was forcing my way past all those South Koreans, South Africans, Icelandics, Mexicans, Chileans, Israelis, Jordanians and other people the EU has free trade agreements with all using their free movement access to the UK.... oh wait.

    Can we please stop his nonsense that free trade agreements give, or even imply any visa rights, never mind any rights of residence, they don't.

    The nonsense we need to stop is the ludicrous suggestion that South Korea, South Africa, Mexico, Chile, Israel and Jordan have full access to the EU market on the same terms as the UK, Switzerland and Norway.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–South_Korea_Free_Trade_Agreement
    The agreement would be the second largest free trade agreement, second only to the North American Free Trade Agreement.[1] It is also the most comprehensive the EU has ever negotiated: import duties are near eliminated on all produce and there is deep liberalisation in trade in services. It includes provisions for intellectual property (including geographical indications), public procurement, competition, transparency of regulation and sustainable development. There are also specific commitments against non-tariff obstacles on sectors such as automobiles, pharmaceuticals and electronics.[3]
    Sounds terribly restrictive.
    People come under the category of goods and services though and can't be separated out in free trade agreements. We've been told this repeatedly !

    As an aside, smartest people on earth the Koreans I reckon for what it's worth.
    It's something to be done with you rich aristocrats and your ejaculations....

    It's the well heeled Lord Pulpstar is it ?

    :blush:

    What can I say. It's 11am and I'm on my second bottle of Gin... You know what it's like. :smiley:



    Hhhmmm .... I thought the 1138 from your screen name was the time just before midday by which you aimed not to crack open the second bottle. :smile:

  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Nabavi, obviously?

    I fail to see why a trade treaty necessitates total freedom of movement.

    Because we would have as an absolute priority a free market in services, which isn't really practical without free movement of labour, and because there is no realistic prospect of a special exception being made by our EU friends compared with Switzerland, Norway etc.
    If UKIP won an election, they would almost certainly consider having immigration controls with the EU as being more of a priority than a free market in services.
    The Tory view of our relationship with the eu after leaving seems to see us as Rodders to Merkels Del Boy... Still going back to Nelson Mandela House the day after finally breaking the shackles w a new job and wife

    No confidence in our own ability.
    That doesn't make any sense.

    If you have zero confidence negotiating in a forum of which you're one of the 3 largest and most powerful members, of which you've been a member for 43 years, how on earth do you think you're going to fare in the white heat of international competition in a field crowded by ever increasing numbers of much larger economies?!

    All this talk by the Outers of doing oh-so-swimmingly outside the EU blithely ignores Germany's far greater success in penetrating non EU markets than the UK.

    UKIP logic as usual doesn't stack up.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,706
    I don't think anyone has a clue what to do about immigration.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Indigo said:

    I believe it's that sort of view that the views of the business elite trump the views of the voters that has cost the Conservatives so heavily.

    Ignoring the views of the 'business elite' as you call them (I would prefer the phrase 'people who actually know what they are talking about') is an experiment which has been tried in many countries, most recently by François Hollande. We may be about to see the experiment repeated here under Ed Miliband.

    The results are always the same.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    I note that "plebgate" seems to be an expensive pastime for A.Mitchell.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2015

    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    If UKIP won an election, they would almost certainly consider having immigration controls with the EU as being more of a priority than a free market in services.

    They might start off like that, until the economic realities were made clear to them by the stream of business leaders who would be knocking at the door.
    I believe it's that sort of view that the views of the business elite trump the views of the voters that has cost the Conservatives so heavily.
    This may be true, but a party that tried to ignore what the elites thought would happen and do what the voters thought was best wouldn't stay popular with the voters for long once some of the things the elites said would happen happened.
    But so much of its partisan bollocks. There would still be a free market in services, both sides make too much out of the deal for it to happen otherwise, anything else is scaremongering. It might not be quite so smooth, it might mean businesses have to hire a few more bureaucrats to process the paperwork, profits might slip by 0.1%, they will get over it, life will continue as before. Political partisans try and make out that all these sort of change would cause the world to end, or the country to go bankrupt, its nonsense.

    We don't currently have a free trade agreement with the USA, and yet I managed to have three excellent American developers in my team for a couple of years, and my company bought extensive goods and services from the States.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Sean_F said:

    Independence is bound to be a bumpy ride. The Irish discovered that in 1922. I think that Alex Salmond should have made that clear during the Scottish referendum campaign. You have to decide if the pros outweigh the cons.

    Yes, that is fair enough. I have no problem with an honest debate (although I think the result would be a strong majority in favour of staying in). What I object to is the simplistic idea that we can retain all of the advantages of the single market without having to concede anything.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited March 2015
    I quite agree - it hasn't found its feet - it's very similar to Agents of SHIELD in being all over the place in S1.

    ABC have a bit of a rep for this. The production design is top quality in both. I can't believe Fox dumped Almost Human last year - it was great and a total sure bet with Fringe fans.

    The Flash in comparison is pretty tight and reminds me of Teen Wolf - that was super fun for S1-S2 then got lost in early S3 and I need to catch up with the second half of that run. I don't like Tyler Posey who plays the main character - but Stiles is FAB as supporting actor.

    I used to watch Once Upon A Time but that's just got too stupid. Grimm is holding on as I just like Silas Weir and Reggie Lee as actors. If you haven't watched Elementary - I must recommend it. Johnny Lee Miller is superb as Sherlock.

    Plato said:

    I think the Snake and Penguin are the only good characters but it has pace. I can't stand the Alfred or Officer Gordon's sidekick. He's so ham he'd be at home with green eggs.

    Have you tried Sleepy Hollow - Tom Mison is great as Ichabod Crane.

    Plato said:

    It's on my Watch Next List. Have you tried Continuum, The Flash, Forever, Constantine, Agent Carter or Gotham?

    Some good yarns in there with a bent towards sci-fi/sci-fantasy or Marvel.

    EDIT - if you like hot girls and lesbian kissing - try Lost Girl, the female lead is a sex monster = a succubus.

    A succubus is a female demon or supernatural entity in folklore (traced back to medieval legend) that appears in dreams and takes the form of a woman in order to seduce men, usually through sexual activity. The male counterpart is the incubus.
    Patrick said:

    ... only stopping because The 100 was on TV.

    I like that show! Hot chicks, elemental violence, scifi, battles, human nature issues and lesbian kissing all rolled into one. What's not to like? I want the Mt Weather leadership to get bloodeagled soon.
    I wouldn't bother with Gotham TBH....it is big budget, but all over the place.

    Somebody said Perception, at times it is pretty good and had potential, but loses its way and has recently been canned.
    My problem is I don't think it knows what it is trying to be. Is it a weekly procedural with Gordon and his partner solving crimes? Is it some big wide ranging story about the mob? Is it about Bruce Wayne? It is basically loads of money has been thrown at it, big cast, and IMO the result is a so far it is all over the place.

    Some weeks it is a standard procedural, some it is all about the mob, now we are on to the Wayne Enterprises corruption.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @FrancisUrquhart
    If the van was parallel parked......it probably wasn't a woman...
    *dives for cover*
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Indigo said:

    I believe it's that sort of view that the views of the business elite trump the views of the voters that has cost the Conservatives so heavily.

    Ignoring the views of the 'business elite' as you call them (I would prefer the phrase 'people who actually know what they are talking about') is an experiment which has been tried in many countries, most recently by François Hollande. We may be about to see the experiment repeated here under Ed Miliband.

    The results are always the same.
    It's perfectly rational for the leaders of some mutlinational businesses to favour ever-closer union with the rest of the EU. Particularly if they come from another EU member state and have no real ties to this country. Their aim, indeed their fiduciary duty, is to maximise the profitablility of their company.

    But, I see no reason why I should have to share the same aims.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JamesTapsfield: Message to steven woolfe from farage at Ukip immigration announcement venue? http://t.co/ic8OB81BYV
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Sean_F said:

    Independence is bound to be a bumpy ride. The Irish discovered that in 1922. I think that Alex Salmond should have made that clear during the Scottish referendum campaign. You have to decide if the pros outweigh the cons.

    Yes, that is fair enough. I have no problem with an honest debate (although I think the result would be a strong majority in favour of staying in). What I object to is the simplistic idea that we can retain all of the advantages of the single market without having to concede anything.
    In the same way, I object to arguments that leaving the EU would be like unleashing the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

    In reality, we're talking about a few per cent of GDP in either direction.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Indigo said:

    I believe it's that sort of view that the views of the business elite trump the views of the voters that has cost the Conservatives so heavily.

    Ignoring the views of the 'business elite' as you call them (I would prefer the phrase 'people who actually know what they are talking about') is an experiment which has been tried in many countries, most recently by François Hollande. We may be about to see the experiment repeated here under Ed Miliband.

    The results are always the same.
    The same 'business elite' that told us we would all be in tatters by now if we didn't join the Euro?

    I would sooner trust the judgement of Roland Rat than that of Roland Rudd.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Carrying on the TV theme - I have to give Top Marks to Dexter's depiction of the Four Horsemen. Just superbly done.

    The attention to detail, the Miami sunshine and shock was fantastically gruesome.
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Independence is bound to be a bumpy ride. The Irish discovered that in 1922. I think that Alex Salmond should have made that clear during the Scottish referendum campaign. You have to decide if the pros outweigh the cons.

    Yes, that is fair enough. I have no problem with an honest debate (although I think the result would be a strong majority in favour of staying in). What I object to is the simplistic idea that we can retain all of the advantages of the single market without having to concede anything.
    In the same way, I object to arguments that leaving the EU would be like unleashing the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

    In reality, we're talking about a few per cent of GDP in either direction.
This discussion has been closed.