Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf for tonight

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited February 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf for tonight

Marf cartoon for tonight pic.twitter.com/iJxP0x8RJS

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    no comment
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Foxtrot Oscar Bennett.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31535635

    No taxpayers' money for Greens or any other party.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Ishmael_X said:

    no comment


    this comment intentionally left blank?

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2015
    What are those weird 'shark fins' at the bottom of the cartoon? Are they wriggling?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Ishmael_X said:

    no comment


    this comment intentionally left blank?

    That's my gag. Mitts off.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Anorak said:

    What are those weird 'shark fins' at the bottom of the cartoon? Are they wriggling?

    Propellers
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    Not sure Nige will be taking to the skies anytime soon after his last flying stunt.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2015

    Anorak said:

    What are those weird 'shark fins' at the bottom of the cartoon? Are they wriggling?

    Propellers
    Oh. It's a bear, is it. Fair play.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    jayfdee said:

    Not sure Nige will be taking to the skies anytime soon after his last flying stunt.

    Given the constituency he's fighting it might be a Glenn Miller.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Polling today was disappointing. William Hill have not changed their UKIP banded odds on 1-2 and 3-4 seats.
    FalseFlag said:

    Speedy said:

    Hmmm, perhaps America has decided to dump the Ukrainian president, this is a scathing article against Poroshenko and the timing for it is very suspicious:

    http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/27/explosive-court-case-puts-chocolate-king-dock-307920.html

    Semenchenko has held a press conference heavily criticising the UAF General staff and very carefully the President, calling the Debaltseve retreat a "total disaster". It was, I am hearing several thousand killed and captured, some of the very few battle worthy units destroyed. Huge amounts of armour and heavy artillery captured too, rebels have always prospered through more highly motivated infantry plus superior leadership whilst being outgunned in artillery and armour.

    More importantly, however he proceeded to announce the creation of an "alternative general headquarters" headed by himself and 6 other leaders, including Yarosh of Right Sector. According to him a number of brigade leaders have signed up to be a part of this "alternative headquarters".

    The war is even more unpopular amongst the Ukrainian people now, Europe has distanced itself from the US (http://russia-insider.com/en/opinion/2015/02/18/3599) so the neo con crazies in Washington and London might be getting desperate. Or maybe they have suddenly become realists and will seek a peaceful settlement.
    Great to see the EU has been successful in maintaining peace in Eastern Europe.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    How Ashcroft polls are being reported outside of the Westminster bubble

    "Poll shows UKIP closing in on Tory seats in two south Essex battlegrounds

    UKIP are closing in on top Tories in two key south Essex election battlegrounds, a shock new poll suggests.

    The poll published by Lord Ashcroft today shows the Conservatives just one point ahead in Castle Point and just six points up in South Basildon and East Thurrock."

    http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/11805461.Poll_shows_UKIP_closing_in_on_Tory_seats_in_two_south_Essex_battlegrounds/
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    MP_SE said:

    Polling today was disappointing. William Hill have not changed their UKIP banded odds on 1-2 and 3-4 seats.

    FalseFlag said:

    Speedy said:

    Hmmm, perhaps America has decided to dump the Ukrainian president, this is a scathing article against Poroshenko and the timing for it is very suspicious:

    http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/27/explosive-court-case-puts-chocolate-king-dock-307920.html

    Semenchenko has held a press conference heavily criticising the UAF General staff and very carefully the President, calling the Debaltseve retreat a "total disaster". It was, I am hearing several thousand killed and captured, some of the very few battle worthy units destroyed. Huge amounts of armour and heavy artillery captured too, rebels have always prospered through more highly motivated infantry plus superior leadership whilst being outgunned in artillery and armour.

    More importantly, however he proceeded to announce the creation of an "alternative general headquarters" headed by himself and 6 other leaders, including Yarosh of Right Sector. According to him a number of brigade leaders have signed up to be a part of this "alternative headquarters".

    The war is even more unpopular amongst the Ukrainian people now, Europe has distanced itself from the US (http://russia-insider.com/en/opinion/2015/02/18/3599) so the neo con crazies in Washington and London might be getting desperate. Or maybe they have suddenly become realists and will seek a peaceful settlement.
    Great to see the EU has been successful in maintaining peace in Eastern Europe.
    Well one way of looking at it would to use a romantic analogy. A long suffering lady is trying to get away from her abusive partner. Along comes a new beau who she wants to leave him for. The abusive partner beats her up for it. Clearly it's all the fault of the new beau who should have left her alone......
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited February 2015
    The following article really sums up Labour's attitude to immigration. They must be going out of their mind having to talk about immigration. You can tell they would love to come out and openly call UKIP racist but know it would be electoral suicide.
    Afterwards, in an interview, she rolls her eyes when she's asked about immigration. She'd rather focus on the minimum wage, or zero hours contracts.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31522182

  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    Polling today was disappointing. William Hill have not changed their UKIP banded odds on 1-2 and 3-4 seats.

    FalseFlag said:

    Speedy said:

    Hmmm, perhaps America has decided to dump the Ukrainian president, this is a scathing article against Poroshenko and the timing for it is very suspicious:

    http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/27/explosive-court-case-puts-chocolate-king-dock-307920.html

    Semenchenko has held a press conference heavily criticising the UAF General staff and very carefully the President, calling the Debaltseve retreat a "total disaster". It was, I am hearing several thousand killed and captured, some of the very few battle worthy units destroyed. Huge amounts of armour and heavy artillery captured too, rebels have always prospered through more highly motivated infantry plus superior leadership whilst being outgunned in artillery and armour.

    More importantly, however he proceeded to announce the creation of an "alternative general headquarters" headed by himself and 6 other leaders, including Yarosh of Right Sector. According to him a number of brigade leaders have signed up to be a part of this "alternative headquarters".

    The war is even more unpopular amongst the Ukrainian people now, Europe has distanced itself from the US (http://russia-insider.com/en/opinion/2015/02/18/3599) so the neo con crazies in Washington and London might be getting desperate. Or maybe they have suddenly become realists and will seek a peaceful settlement.
    Great to see the EU has been successful in maintaining peace in Eastern Europe.
    Well one way of looking at it would to use a romantic analogy. A long suffering lady is trying to get away from her abusive partner. Along comes a new beau who she wants to leave him for. The abusive partner beats her up for it. Clearly it's all the fault of the new beau who should have left her alone......
    I was thinking about that today. If UKIP crashed after a poor GE performance and faded into obscurity I couldn't bring myself to vote Tory in their current form, I just wouldn't vote at all. I would most probably divert my efforts to pressure groups such as TFA and the Tax Payers Alliance.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015
    Germany moving from tough negotiation to taking the p155

    https://twitter.com/matsJpersson/status/568474687782694912

    Another German demand: they think Greek banks are solvent enough to no longer require a €10.9bn buffer from Europe's financial stability fund.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Indigo said:

    Germany moving from tough negotiation to taking the p155

    https://twitter.com/matsJpersson/status/568474687782694912

    First Euro Finance minister to publicly say that it might be better for everyone for Greece to leave the eurozone.
    http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/business/business_news/49831/scicluna_eurogroup_might_not_oppose_grexit#.VOYvs_mUfkW
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Speedy said:

    Indigo said:

    Germany moving from tough negotiation to taking the p155

    https://twitter.com/matsJpersson/status/568474687782694912

    First Euro Finance minister to publicly say that it might be better for everyone for Greece to leave the eurozone.
    http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/business/business_news/49831/scicluna_eurogroup_might_not_oppose_grexit#.VOYvs_mUfkW
    Cyprus might be less than impressed since they are already effectively bankrupt, and their economy is closely linked to the Greek economy.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    edited February 2015
    Having just flicked through the last thread it seems to be fairly unanimous that Ed and Labour are making clowns of themselves. Hypocrisy so gross Tories think they can give up campaigning and just sit back with their popcorn........Makes the Labour poll leads rather odd though doesn't it?

    On the subject of three policewomen strip searching a suspect.....there's a life size cartoon on Blackpool pier of a police woman interviewing a suspect "Anything you say will be taken down....."

    "Knickers!"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,897
    Farage says he expects Tories to be largest party, as Cameron appeals to middle class Tories, Miliband turns off working class Labour voters. He leaves the door open to a deal with the Tories on a referendum
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/19/nigel-farage-predicts-david-cameron-will-lead-largest-party-after-election
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    MP_SE said:

    Polling today was disappointing. William Hill have not changed their UKIP banded odds on 1-2 and 3-4 seats.

    FalseFlag said:

    Speedy said:

    Hmmm, perhaps America has decided to dump the Ukrainian president, this is a scathing article against Poroshenko and the timing for it is very suspicious:

    http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/27/explosive-court-case-puts-chocolate-king-dock-307920.html

    Semenchenko has held a press conference heavily criticising the UAF General staff and very carefully the President, calling the Debaltseve retreat a "total disaster". It was, I am hearing several thousand killed and captured, some of the very few battle worthy units destroyed. Huge amounts of armour and heavy artillery captured too, rebels have always prospered through more highly motivated infantry plus superior leadership whilst being outgunned in artillery and armour.

    More importantly, however he proceeded to announce the creation of an "alternative general headquarters" headed by himself and 6 other leaders, including Yarosh of Right Sector. According to him a number of brigade leaders have signed up to be a part of this "alternative headquarters".

    The war is even more unpopular amongst the Ukrainian people now, Europe has distanced itself from the US (http://russia-insider.com/en/opinion/2015/02/18/3599) so the neo con crazies in Washington and London might be getting desperate. Or maybe they have suddenly become realists and will seek a peaceful settlement.
    Great to see the EU has been successful in maintaining peace in Eastern Europe.
    No-one can keep the peace in Eastern Europe while the liar and bully Putin is around. It takes 2 to keep the peace.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "Ed Miliband has been confronted by a disgruntled voter for failing to give the “working class man” a say on Europe.
    Peter Baldwin, an electrician at BAE Systems in Lancashire, challenged the Labour leader over his failure to back a vote on Britain’s membership of the European Union during a factory visit.
    He said the party’s refusal to propose a referendum was putting him off voting Labour and warned that the scale of immigration was forcing British workers out of jobs.
    The episode, caught on camera by the BBC, has echoes of the moment Gordon Brown got challenged over immigration while campaigning in Rochester by Gillian Duffy.
    It came as Mr Miliband was being introduced to workers at the jet fighter factory in front of the cameras.

    “At this moment in time I don’t feel like voting Labour,” Mr Baldwin told the Labour leader when they met.
    Asked by Mr Miliband what his “biggest issues” with the party were, Mr Baldwin continued: “This morning we were sat in the brewery over there [for workers].
    “They’re all leaning now towards Ukip. Now, the question on everybody’s mind is the referendum. I know what you’re going to say, but the working class man in here wants to have a say.”


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11423668/Ed-Miliband-confronted-by-working-class-voter-over-Europe.html
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Roger said:

    Having just flicked through the last thread it seems to be fairly unanimous that Ed and Labour are making clowns of themselves. Hypocrisy so gross Tories think they can give up campaigning and just sit back with their popcorn........Makes the Labour poll leads rather odd though doesn't it?

    On the subject of three policewomen strip searching a suspect.....there's a life size cartoon on Blackpool pier of a police woman interviewing a suspect "Anything you say will be taken down....."

    "Knickers!"

    keep slurping the champers roger, you know all about double standards and hypocrisy
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    isam said:

    "Ed Miliband has been confronted by a disgruntled voter for failing to give the “working class man” a say on Europe.
    Peter Baldwin, an electrician at BAE Systems in Lancashire, challenged the Labour leader over his failure to back a vote on Britain’s membership of the European Union during a factory visit.
    He said the party’s refusal to propose a referendum was putting him off voting Labour and warned that the scale of immigration was forcing British workers out of jobs.
    The episode, caught on camera by the BBC, has echoes of the moment Gordon Brown got challenged over immigration while campaigning in Rochester by Gillian Duffy.
    It came as Mr Miliband was being introduced to workers at the jet fighter factory in front of the cameras.

    “At this moment in time I don’t feel like voting Labour,” Mr Baldwin told the Labour leader when they met.
    Asked by Mr Miliband what his “biggest issues” with the party were, Mr Baldwin continued: “This morning we were sat in the brewery over there [for workers].
    “They’re all leaning now towards Ukip. Now, the question on everybody’s mind is the referendum. I know what you’re going to say, but the working class man in here wants to have a say.”


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11423668/Ed-Miliband-confronted-by-working-class-voter-over-Europe.html

    I don't see what the problem is. All such minded people should vote UKIP. UKIP is after all the referendum party. Everyone knows that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    HYUFD said:

    Farage says he expects Tories to be largest party, as Cameron appeals to middle class Tories, Miliband turns off working class Labour voters. He leaves the door open to a deal with the Tories on a referendum
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/19/nigel-farage-predicts-david-cameron-will-lead-largest-party-after-election

    This is a great way for Nigel to send soft red UKIP back to Labour tbh...
  • FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Would you feel it reasonable if the RAF went to great expense to fly its fighter jets on the international edges of Russian airspace with increasing frequency, practising aggressive flight paths, and doing so with no warning and maintaining transponder silence throughout? Would you think it Russian propaganda if their press reported that? Would it be reasonable of Russia to scramble fighter jets to see what we were up to?
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    For my sins ,I try to manage a fellrunning club. I have just been contacted by BBC newsnight who want to send a runner to run with us and discuss our thoughts on the GE,they want to be in Tim Farron country,which is not a problem,we have quite a few runners who live there.
    I just have to select a location and think who I dare let run,some of our runners are very eloquent in their views. Filming next week,I will report back.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,897
    Pulpstar Indeed, he is now clearly leaning towards a deal with Cameron rather than Miliband if UKIP were to hold the balance of power
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    To quote Admiral Hanson in the battle between democracy and economics: "the fight does not go well, Enterprise."

    The message from Greece is loud and clear. Democratic will is no substitute for an ability to pay the bills. Or as we used to say in Scotland before we became a nation of socialist loons, "he who pays the piper picks the tune."

    It is a lesson the tories really need to be shouting from the rooftops. If you want to know what will happen if Labour get a hold of the economy again, just look at what is happening to Greece.

    It even has the merit of being arguably true.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited February 2015
    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    edited February 2015
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar Indeed, he is now clearly leaning towards a deal with Cameron rather than Miliband if UKIP were to hold the balance of power

    The DUP OTOH seems to lean more towards Ed. Dave's UUP deal may come back to haunt him yet.
  • Roger said:

    Having just flicked through the last thread it seems to be fairly unanimous that Ed and Labour are making clowns of themselves. Hypocrisy so gross Tories think they can give up campaigning and just sit back with their popcorn........Makes the Labour poll leads rather odd though doesn't it?

    On the subject of three policewomen strip searching a suspect.....there's a life size cartoon on Blackpool pier of a police woman interviewing a suspect "Anything you say will be taken down....."

    "Knickers!"

    It does. I don't meet a single person who volunteers a positive opinion about Ed Miliband, or who will even admit to wanting to vote Labour in May either at work or through my friends (though I know the lifelong socialists) so it baffles me where all their extra votes are coming from.

    Curious.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    MP_SE said:

    Great to see the EU has been successful in maintaining peace in Eastern Europe.

    Anti-EU obsessives complain both when crap lightbulbs get regulated, and when British forces don't fight under an European banner in non-EU Soviet-occupied territory. Don't look for consistency here.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    isam said:

    "Ed Miliband has been confronted by a disgruntled voter for failing to give the “working class man” a say on Europe.
    Peter Baldwin, an electrician at BAE Systems in Lancashire, challenged the Labour leader over his failure to back a vote on Britain’s membership of the European Union during a factory visit.
    He said the party’s refusal to propose a referendum was putting him off voting Labour and warned that the scale of immigration was forcing British workers out of jobs.
    The episode, caught on camera by the BBC, has echoes of the moment Gordon Brown got challenged over immigration while campaigning in Rochester by Gillian Duffy.
    It came as Mr Miliband was being introduced to workers at the jet fighter factory in front of the cameras.

    “At this moment in time I don’t feel like voting Labour,” Mr Baldwin told the Labour leader when they met.
    Asked by Mr Miliband what his “biggest issues” with the party were, Mr Baldwin continued: “This morning we were sat in the brewery over there [for workers].
    “They’re all leaning now towards Ukip. Now, the question on everybody’s mind is the referendum. I know what you’re going to say, but the working class man in here wants to have a say.”


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11423668/Ed-Miliband-confronted-by-working-class-voter-over-Europe.html

    You can't believe what you read in Telegraph.
  • philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    If push comes to shove, which it never will because he'll salami slice, I don't think Putin believes the West has the stomach or resolve to militarily defend the Baltic States.

    What would NATO do if a 'pro-Russian' rebellion 'broke out' in part of Lithunia or Estonia with a Russian majority population. I suspect more sanctions, and a small naval fleet would position itself off Riga doing flying displays, and we might supply arms to those Baltic states. But that's it.

    Poland is different. First because of history, no one would stand for any shenanigans there, second there are minimal Russian minorities there, and third Poland has fully learnt the lessons of not relying on others for its defence and will arm itself and fight back if pushed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    perdix said:
    These were far from bad polls for UKIP. They are going to get some highly respectable results which might set them up for the future if things in the EU continue to bend their way. But they are not going to win these seats this time. To achieve that they would have needed to be comfortably ahead at this point before the squeeze comes on.

    My guess in the election lottery (forecast sounds wildly optimistic) the other day was 2 MPs for UKIP and that is probably the bit of my guess that I am least worried about.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,897
    Pulpstar I see no evidence of that at all, they will back the largest party if they hold the balance of power as will the LDs. The SNP, Greens, Respect, Plaid and SDLP lean Labour, UKIP to the Tories
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,897
    edited February 2015
    DavidL Yet Syriza has over 80% approval in Greece, exit from the euro is probably the best thing for it
  • EPG said:

    MP_SE said:

    Great to see the EU has been successful in maintaining peace in Eastern Europe.

    Anti-EU obsessives complain both when crap lightbulbs get regulated, and when British forces don't fight under an European banner in non-EU Soviet-occupied territory. Don't look for consistency here.
    Nope. Those with a realistic view of the EU simply like to point out that it is not now and has never been responsible for peace in Europe and is more interested in uselessly legislating the minutiae of our lives.

    In all cases it is a waste of time and money.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    So we even have even handed Marf having a sly dig at Farage. Does she think he's a Russian spy?
  • DavidL said:



    It is a lesson the tories really need to be shouting from the rooftops. If you want to know what will happen if Labour get a hold of the economy again, just look at what is happening to Greece.

    It even has the merit of being arguably true.

    DavidL, I respectfully disagree. I don't think the public believe that Labour would turn Britain into Greece (and in fact I don't think they would either, notwithstanding how underwhelmed I am by them in opposition). If a Conservative minister were to make that claim, the public would groan and dismiss it as hyperbole. The best the Tories can hope for is that the public reach their own conclusion and appreciate how (comparatively) well the economy is being managed under this current Government. The Tories should be actively campaigning on that basis, with a more positive message about job creation, growth and the platform they provide for funding public services.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited February 2015
    perdix said:
    Daily Mail quite wrong about those 4 marginals. UKIP will take three of them for sure. The weighting of UKIP for these Ashcroft polls is simply preposterous.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    EPG said:

    MP_SE said:

    Great to see the EU has been successful in maintaining peace in Eastern Europe.

    Anti-EU obsessives complain both when crap lightbulbs get regulated, and when British forces don't fight under an European banner in non-EU Soviet-occupied territory. Don't look for consistency here.
    Nope. Those with a realistic view of the EU simply like to point out that it is not now and has never been responsible for peace in Europe and is more interested in uselessly legislating the minutiae of our lives.

    In all cases it is a waste of time and money.
    Indeed. I was merely highlighting the myth that the EU keeps everyone in the region safe. I doubt there are many eurosceptics who would be in favour of an EU army.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    Roger said:

    Having just flicked through the last thread it seems to be fairly unanimous that Ed and Labour are making clowns of themselves. Hypocrisy so gross Tories think they can give up campaigning and just sit back with their popcorn........Makes the Labour poll leads rather odd though doesn't it?

    On the subject of three policewomen strip searching a suspect.....there's a life size cartoon on Blackpool pier of a police woman interviewing a suspect "Anything you say will be taken down....."

    "Knickers!"

    It does. I don't meet a single person who volunteers a positive opinion about Ed Miliband, or who will even admit to wanting to vote Labour in May either at work or through my friends (though I know the lifelong socialists) so it baffles me where all their extra votes are coming from.

    Curious.
    People who don't vote. Young people, anti establishment types.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    My father attended a NATO conference in Germany in the early 1970s when the Soviet Union was thought to have overwhelming force and the job of the Nato forces in Europe was thought to be to hold on for a few days whilst the politicians found an alternative to going nuclear.
    The Americans set out their withdrawal positions to which they would fall back once the Soviet tanks made it onto the Hohne Heath past the Harz mountains. The British did the same. The French planned to fall back somewhere north of Paris.

    All morning the Germans said nothing and someone finally noticed and asked their plans. The answer was simple: "We are going to Berlin".

    At that time West Germany was the only NATO country whose kit was on a par with the US and their discipline, efficiency and speed was evident even to a child like me. My father certainly thought very highly of them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL Yet Syriza has over 80% approval in Greece, exit from the euro is probably the best thing for it

    I tend to agree simply because there is no obvious way out of the present mess.

    The mistake was made in 2012 when Greece needed a far more radical default than it got slicing their debt to a manageable level. They still need this, arguably even more so. If that is not compatible with EZ membership (and it almost certainly isn't) they have to leave.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Guido Fawkes ‏@GuidoFawkes 1h1 hour ago
    WATCH: Miliband confronted by UKIP-supporting electrician about EU referendum http://order-order.com/2015/02/19/awkward-ed-meets-a-voter/

    Tee hee.......!
  • DavidL said:

    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    My father attended a NATO conference in Germany in the early 1970s when the Soviet Union was thought to have overwhelming force and the job of the Nato forces in Europe was thought to be to hold on for a few days whilst the politicians found an alternative to going nuclear.
    The Americans set out their withdrawal positions to which they would fall back once the Soviet tanks made it onto the Hohne Heath past the Harz mountains. The British did the same. The French planned to fall back somewhere north of Paris.

    All morning the Germans said nothing and someone finally noticed and asked their plans. The answer was simple: "We are going to Berlin".

    At that time West Germany was the only NATO country whose kit was on a par with the US and their discipline, efficiency and speed was evident even to a child like me. My father certainly thought very highly of them.
    Only the West Germans and US maintained significant armoured and infantry divisions. Around 10-15 which, whilst way inferior to the Soviets, certainly enough to do some damage. There was talk of tactical local nuclear defence but I very much doubt that'd ever have Ben used.

    I think the UK maintained 2-3 armoured/infantry divisions there at its peak, but happy to be corrected.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Camley's take on the rural alliance attack on Scottish ministers over windfarms pic.twitter.com/tXDFtUDCbS

    — Herald Editor (@Herald_Editor) February 9, 2015

    Windy?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Immigration is not the first subject, nor the last... but it is something worth talking about. #immigration pic.twitter.com/o9NYNjKw8g

    — UKIPNorthCornwall (@UKIPNCornwall) February 19, 2015
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited February 2015
    DavidL said:

    perdix said:
    These were far from bad polls for UKIP. They are going to get some highly respectable results which might set them up for the future if things in the EU continue to bend their way. But they are not going to win these seats this time. To achieve that they would have needed to be comfortably ahead at this point before the squeeze comes on.

    My guess in the election lottery (forecast sounds wildly optimistic) the other day was 2 MPs for UKIP and that is probably the bit of my guess that I am least worried about.
    Why is it so inevitable that UKIP are going to be squeezed? I don't think it's at all impossible UKIP will rise during the campaign, in the same way that the Lib Dems often used to rise during the "short" campaign because of the publicity boost.
  • FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    You don't believe there were Russian Bear long range bombers off the Cornish coast yesterday?
  • Labour shortlist for Torfaen

    Joss Garman www.jossgarman.com/
    Hywel Lloyd (founding member of Labour: Coast & Country)
    Majid Rahman (Newport Cllr)
    Nick Thomas-Symonds nickthomassymonds.com/
    Sarah Woodall www.sarahwoodall.org.uk

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025

    DavidL said:



    It is a lesson the tories really need to be shouting from the rooftops. If you want to know what will happen if Labour get a hold of the economy again, just look at what is happening to Greece.

    It even has the merit of being arguably true.

    DavidL, I respectfully disagree. I don't think the public believe that Labour would turn Britain into Greece (and in fact I don't think they would either, notwithstanding how underwhelmed I am by them in opposition). If a Conservative minister were to make that claim, the public would groan and dismiss it as hyperbole. The best the Tories can hope for is that the public reach their own conclusion and appreciate how (comparatively) well the economy is being managed under this current Government. The Tories should be actively campaigning on that basis, with a more positive message about job creation, growth and the platform they provide for funding public services.
    Oh I agree that they should be positive and focus on jobs, jobs and well, jobs but there is a real time demonstration of how things can go seriously wrong with somewhat fortuitous timing and they should take advantage, especially when Labour is already not trusted on the economy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,897
    David L Agree entirely
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited February 2015
    DavidL said:

    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    My father attended a NATO conference in Germany in the early 1970s when the Soviet Union was thought to have overwhelming force and the job of the Nato forces in Europe was thought to be to hold on for a few days whilst the politicians found an alternative to going nuclear.
    The Americans set out their withdrawal positions to which they would fall back once the Soviet tanks made it onto the Hohne Heath past the Harz mountains. The British did the same. The French planned to fall back somewhere north of Paris.

    All morning the Germans said nothing and someone finally noticed and asked their plans. The answer was simple: "We are going to Berlin".

    At that time West Germany was the only NATO country whose kit was on a par with the US and their discipline, efficiency and speed was evident even to a child like me. My father certainly thought very highly of them.
    That was then, this is now.

    In 1953, as part of my National Service, I was stationed for 3 weeks in Hanover. The Germans were only starting to recover their defeat and the their new army was still small, but they still had better infantry weapons than we the British were using at that time. Believe it or not we were still using totally outdated Lee Enfield rifles.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited February 2015
    jayfdee said:

    For my sins ,I try to manage a fellrunning club. I have just been contacted by BBC newsnight who want to send a runner to run with us and discuss our thoughts on the GE,they want to be in Tim Farron country,which is not a problem,we have quite a few runners who live there.
    I just have to select a location and think who I dare let run,some of our runners are very eloquent in their views. Filming next week,I will report back.

    A number of years ago, I was on the way up Great Gable, when I was overtaken by a small army of fell runners. I gave up counting after the 50 th runner passed me by. They were doing a Lakeland marathon, c 26 miles or so, but taking in some of the hills.

    To the fellrunners, Respect, as Mr Ali G from Staines would say.

    Pick one of the steeper routes and one of the more remote fells...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,580
    FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    Why would propaganda scare you when the action on the ground is consistently suiting and benefiting Putin? It's all working out pretty nicely for him, so even if it was propaganda, it isn't producing any results.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    You don't believe there were Russian Bear long range bombers off the Cornish coast yesterday?
    Drop the jingo for a moment, "Russian Bear long range bombers" HA.
    Made in the 1950's and using propellers those things can be shot with WW2 anti-aircraft defences.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    isam said:

    "Ed Miliband has been confronted by a disgruntled voter for failing to give the “working class man” a say on Europe.
    Peter Baldwin, an electrician at BAE Systems in Lancashire, challenged the Labour leader over his failure to back a vote on Britain’s membership of the European Union during a factory visit.
    He said the party’s refusal to propose a referendum was putting him off voting Labour and warned that the scale of immigration was forcing British workers out of jobs.
    The episode, caught on camera by the BBC, has echoes of the moment Gordon Brown got challenged over immigration while campaigning in Rochester by Gillian Duffy.
    It came as Mr Miliband was being introduced to workers at the jet fighter factory in front of the cameras.

    “At this moment in time I don’t feel like voting Labour,” Mr Baldwin told the Labour leader when they met.
    Asked by Mr Miliband what his “biggest issues” with the party were, Mr Baldwin continued: “This morning we were sat in the brewery over there [for workers].
    “They’re all leaning now towards Ukip. Now, the question on everybody’s mind is the referendum. I know what you’re going to say, but the working class man in here wants to have a say.”


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11423668/Ed-Miliband-confronted-by-working-class-voter-over-Europe.html

    Is that Ribble Valley?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    I was surprised last week when a friend - a council worker and lifelong Labour supporter in his fifties - said he'd decided not to vote Labour this time. He was going to vote Green. This was a man who defended Labour to the hilt. I think Ed M has finally dome for him.

    But Labour will survive and possibly even flourish. They may have lost, or are losing the WWC, but they have a large slice of the immigrant vote, the young and the middle class to rely on. That's a growing group so their future looks assured.

    Such a switch round to my youth.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    @Mike K
    Are you going to be a candidate this May?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Roger said:

    Having just flicked through the last thread it seems to be fairly unanimous that Ed and Labour are making clowns of themselves. Hypocrisy so gross Tories think they can give up campaigning and just sit back with their popcorn........Makes the Labour poll leads rather odd though doesn't it?

    On the subject of three policewomen strip searching a suspect.....there's a life size cartoon on Blackpool pier of a police woman interviewing a suspect "Anything you say will be taken down....."

    "Knickers!"

    It does. I don't meet a single person who volunteers a positive opinion about Ed Miliband, or who will even admit to wanting to vote Labour in May either at work or through my friends (though I know the lifelong socialists) so it baffles me where all their extra votes are coming from.

    Curious.
    I have also yet to meet anyone who has any time for Ed Miliband. Anyone. That includes friends who are Labour activists. Some who have actualy given up their party membership. It is quite extraordinary.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025

    DavidL said:

    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    My father attended a NATO conference in Germany in the early 1970s when the Soviet Union was thought to have overwhelming force and the job of the Nato forces in Europe was thought to be to hold on for a few days whilst the politicians found an alternative to going nuclear.
    The Americans set out their withdrawal positions to which they would fall back once the Soviet tanks made it onto the Hohne Heath past the Harz mountains. The British did the same. The French planned to fall back somewhere north of Paris.

    All morning the Germans said nothing and someone finally noticed and asked their plans. The answer was simple: "We are going to Berlin".

    At that time West Germany was the only NATO country whose kit was on a par with the US and their discipline, efficiency and speed was evident even to a child like me. My father certainly thought very highly of them.
    Only the West Germans and US maintained significant armoured and infantry divisions. Around 10-15 which, whilst way inferior to the Soviets, certainly enough to do some damage. There was talk of tactical local nuclear defence but I very much doubt that'd ever have Ben used.

    I think the UK maintained 2-3 armoured/infantry divisions there at its peak, but happy to be corrected.
    I think the reality, as demonstrated by later events, was that the Soviet threat was being substantially overrated and they might well have lost a conventional war even in the early 70s. But that was definitely not the general perception at the time.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    edited February 2015
    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    In the 50's it wasn't uncommon, I was reliably informed, for National Servicemen to be sent out to patrol airbase perimeters armed with pickaxe handles.
    Which, in winter in Norfolk, was an INCREDIBLY popular activity. Especially at night!
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2015
    DavidL said:

    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    My father attended a NATO conference in Germany in the early 1970s when the Soviet Union was thought to have overwhelming force and the job of the Nato forces in Europe was thought to be to hold on for a few days whilst the politicians found an alternative to going nuclear.
    The Americans set out their withdrawal positions to which they would fall back once the Soviet tanks made it onto the Hohne Heath past the Harz mountains. The British did the same. The French planned to fall back somewhere north of Paris.

    All morning the Germans said nothing and someone finally noticed and asked their plans. The answer was simple: "We are going to Berlin".

    At that time West Germany was the only NATO country whose kit was on a par with the US and their discipline, efficiency and speed was evident even to a child like me. My father certainly thought very highly of them.
    It's amazing that both sides of the Cold War planned for a defence but not for an attack on each other.
    But that was in essence the whole thing about the Cold War, it was impossible to attack the enemy.
    The same rules still apply, it is impossible for nuclear states, or alliances with nukes, to go to war with one another.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited February 2015

    @Mike K
    Are you going to be a candidate this May?

    Sorry to disoblige, my friend. I was asked to stand as a councillor last year, but had to refuse. At the age of 80, I will be 81 in April, I just simply haven't the appetite or the energy for political combat.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    DavidL,

    I suspect you're right. At that time, an ex-schoolfriend had joined the army and was a lieutenant in a tank unit stationed in Germany. On leave, he patiently explained their planned route back to the channel ports as soon as war was declared.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712

    isam said:

    "Ed Miliband has been confronted by a disgruntled voter for failing to give the “working class man” a say on Europe.
    Peter Baldwin, an electrician at BAE Systems in Lancashire, challenged the Labour leader over his failure to back a vote on Britain’s membership of the European Union during a factory visit.
    He said the party’s refusal to propose a referendum was putting him off voting Labour and warned that the scale of immigration was forcing British workers out of jobs.
    The episode, caught on camera by the BBC, has echoes of the moment Gordon Brown got challenged over immigration while campaigning in Rochester by Gillian Duffy.
    It came as Mr Miliband was being introduced to workers at the jet fighter factory in front of the cameras.

    “At this moment in time I don’t feel like voting Labour,” Mr Baldwin told the Labour leader when they met.
    Asked by Mr Miliband what his “biggest issues” with the party were, Mr Baldwin continued: “This morning we were sat in the brewery over there [for workers].
    “They’re all leaning now towards Ukip. Now, the question on everybody’s mind is the referendum. I know what you’re going to say, but the working class man in here wants to have a say.”


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11423668/Ed-Miliband-confronted-by-working-class-voter-over-Europe.html

    Is that Ribble Valley?
    The story would have more credibility if the author had remembered that Gillian Duffy lives in Rochdale.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited February 2015

    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    In the 50's it wasn't uncommon, I was reliably informed, for National Servicemen to be sent out to patrol airbase perimeters armed with pickaxe handles.
    Which, in winter in Norfolk, was an INCREDIBLY popular activity. Especially at night!
    Yep I did that on basic training in 1952. What fun we had. ;)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    perdix said:
    These were far from bad polls for UKIP. They are going to get some highly respectable results which might set them up for the future if things in the EU continue to bend their way. But they are not going to win these seats this time. To achieve that they would have needed to be comfortably ahead at this point before the squeeze comes on.

    My guess in the election lottery (forecast sounds wildly optimistic) the other day was 2 MPs for UKIP and that is probably the bit of my guess that I am least worried about.
    Why is it so inevitable that UKIP are going to be squeezed? I don't think it's at all impossible UKIP will rise during the campaign, in the same way that the Lib Dems often used to rise during the "short" campaign because of the publicity boost.
    Who knows? It is the most unpredictable election I have ever known.

    I just think that some UKIP supporters will be scared by the thought of Ed and Ed and will be persuaded to vote tory as a result for the good of the country.

    How UKIP get on in Labour seats will be interesting. A lot of SLAB's problems arise from us Scots taking a good look at Miliband and being totally underwhelmed. Whilst I do not think it is likely similar collapses in other parts of the country (outside north London) are possible.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    In the 50's it wasn't uncommon, I was reliably informed, for National Servicemen to be sent out to patrol airbase perimeters armed with pickaxe handles.
    Which, in winter in Norfolk, was an INCREDIBLY popular activity. Especially at night!
    Yep I did that on basic training in 1952. What fun we had. ;)
    You could have had a worse time MikeK. I recall meeting several ex National Service men who spent February 1953 on Canvey Island seafront filling sandbags to patch up the walls after the floods.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    My father attended a NATO conference in Germany in the early 1970s when the Soviet Union was thought to have overwhelming force and the job of the Nato forces in Europe was thought to be to hold on for a few days whilst the politicians found an alternative to going nuclear.
    The Americans set out their withdrawal positions to which they would fall back once the Soviet tanks made it onto the Hohne Heath past the Harz mountains. The British did the same. The French planned to fall back somewhere north of Paris.

    All morning the Germans said nothing and someone finally noticed and asked their plans. The answer was simple: "We are going to Berlin".

    At that time West Germany was the only NATO country whose kit was on a par with the US and their discipline, efficiency and speed was evident even to a child like me. My father certainly thought very highly of them.
    Only the West Germans and US maintained significant armoured and infantry divisions. Around 10-15 which, whilst way inferior to the Soviets, certainly enough to do some damage. There was talk of tactical local nuclear defence but I very much doubt that'd ever have Ben used.

    I think the UK maintained 2-3 armoured/infantry divisions there at its peak, but happy to be corrected.
    I think the reality, as demonstrated by later events, was that the Soviet threat was being substantially overrated and they might well have lost a conventional war even in the early 70s. But that was definitely not the general perception at the time.
    Perhaps. I seem to remember that even as late as 1991 they had upwards of 4,000 tanks and a third of a million men in Germany.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Speedy said:

    FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    You don't believe there were Russian Bear long range bombers off the Cornish coast yesterday?
    Drop the jingo for a moment, "Russian Bear long range bombers" HA.
    Made in the 1950's and using propellers those things can be shot with WW2 anti-aircraft defences.
    Actually the Russian bombers are turbo-jets, and they fly too high for WW2 ack-ack to reach them. A missile will easily bring them down though.
  • It's rare for me to say kind words about Ed Miliband but he dealt with the "working class man" pretty well today. He was a little awkward and a little laboured in the way he responded - you could almost see the neurological pathways: "avoid Europe, which we can't agree on - find common ground - access immigration policies - repeat - be polite - excuse yourself". But he was civil and he actually engaged with the man. More to the point all politicians have difficult encounters like this. Farage and Miliband both did in Scotland, Clegg's put up with a fair bit on his radio show etc.

    There are plenty of things to criticise Miliband for, but on this occasion I'd say he did fine.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Strong word for Bobby in the who killed Lucy Beale saga
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    perdix said:
    These were far from bad polls for UKIP. They are going to get some highly respectable results which might set them up for the future if things in the EU continue to bend their way. But they are not going to win these seats this time. To achieve that they would have needed to be comfortably ahead at this point before the squeeze comes on.

    My guess in the election lottery (forecast sounds wildly optimistic) the other day was 2 MPs for UKIP and that is probably the bit of my guess that I am least worried about.
    Why is it so inevitable that UKIP are going to be squeezed? I don't think it's at all impossible UKIP will rise during the campaign, in the same way that the Lib Dems often used to rise during the "short" campaign because of the publicity boost.
    Who knows? It is the most unpredictable election I have ever known.

    I just think that some UKIP supporters will be scared by the thought of Ed and Ed and will be persuaded to vote tory as a result for the good of the country.

    How UKIP get on in Labour seats will be interesting. A lot of SLAB's problems arise from us Scots taking a good look at Miliband and being totally underwhelmed. Whilst I do not think it is likely similar collapses in other parts of the country (outside north London) are possible.
    Despite all the sniping and smearing, UKIP will storm ahead at the GE to a good number of seats. :)
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2015
    MikeK said:

    Speedy said:

    FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    You don't believe there were Russian Bear long range bombers off the Cornish coast yesterday?
    Drop the jingo for a moment, "Russian Bear long range bombers" HA.
    Made in the 1950's and using propellers those things can be shot with WW2 anti-aircraft defences.
    Actually the Russian bombers are turbo-jets, and they fly too high for WW2 ack-ack to reach them. A missile will easily bring them down though.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95

    "The Tupolev Tu-95 (Russian: Туполев Ту-95; NATO reporting name: "Bear") is a large, four-engine TURBOPROP-powered strategic bomber and missile platform. First flown in 1952"

    You are scared of junk.

  • isam said:

    Strong word for Bobby in the who killed Lucy Beale saga

    I knew she was too good to be true!
  • Speedy said:

    FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    You don't believe there were Russian Bear long range bombers off the Cornish coast yesterday?
    Drop the jingo for a moment, "Russian Bear long range bombers" HA.
    Made in the 1950's and using propellers those things can be shot with WW2 anti-aircraft defences.
    What's jingoistic about pointing out uncomfortable truths about Russian military movements? They may well be old aircraft, but so was Nimrod. These are still long-range strategic weapons platforms that carry cruise missiles, or even nuclear weapons.

    Apologists for Putin's aggressive military provocations like you really need a better response than to accuse people who call him out on it as being jingoistic.
  • @DavidL

    "I just think that some UKIP supporters will be scared by the thought of Ed and Ed and will be persuaded to vote tory as a result for the good of the country."

    Many Conservative supporters are investing a great deal in that hope.

    As hopes go, it's not an unreasonable one. It may well be fulfilled. But sensible supporters like yourself recognise that it is a hope, and no more.

    Naturally I have my own hopes, and sometimes I bet on them, but I do like to get decent odds. Not sure what odds I'd want on the outcome you envisage here, but I'm sure it's no certainty.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Its Jane
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    MikeK said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    perdix said:
    These were far from bad polls for UKIP. They are going to get some highly respectable results which might set them up for the future if things in the EU continue to bend their way. But they are not going to win these seats this time. To achieve that they would have needed to be comfortably ahead at this point before the squeeze comes on.

    My guess in the election lottery (forecast sounds wildly optimistic) the other day was 2 MPs for UKIP and that is probably the bit of my guess that I am least worried about.
    Why is it so inevitable that UKIP are going to be squeezed? I don't think it's at all impossible UKIP will rise during the campaign, in the same way that the Lib Dems often used to rise during the "short" campaign because of the publicity boost.
    Who knows? It is the most unpredictable election I have ever known.

    I just think that some UKIP supporters will be scared by the thought of Ed and Ed and will be persuaded to vote tory as a result for the good of the country.

    How UKIP get on in Labour seats will be interesting. A lot of SLAB's problems arise from us Scots taking a good look at Miliband and being totally underwhelmed. Whilst I do not think it is likely similar collapses in other parts of the country (outside north London) are possible.
    Despite all the sniping and smearing, UKIP will storm ahead at the GE to a good number of seats. :)
    A word of caution MikeK; a lot of people thought that about the Liberals in the early 60's, and '74, and the Alliance in 1983. Remember the disparity between vote share and seats for the Alliance in that election.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Speedy said:

    FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    You don't believe there were Russian Bear long range bombers off the Cornish coast yesterday?
    Drop the jingo for a moment, "Russian Bear long range bombers" HA.
    Made in the 1950's and using propellers those things can be shot with WW2 anti-aircraft defences.
    No they weren't, they first flew in 1952 as did the B-52, which the US intends to keep operational into the 2040s, but existing aircraft all date from the 1980s-90s. I have given up trying to understand what other points you are trying to make but if they aren't long range bombers then what, in your view, are they?

  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    From earlier discussion of Labour tactical votes in Ukip-Tory areas. These will be areas where tactical voting is new so will come into being less easily than in Tory-LD areas. Important also to remember that the relevant Labour votes are people who stuck with them in 2010. A good deal of the working class now considering Ukip was already lost to the Conservatives in the 80s and 2010, and to the BNP and Lib Dems in some areas more recently. One would have to ask how many will defect from Labour in an election in which their party will probably be up in the national polls. On the other hand, the potential tactical-Conservative voters stayed with Labour even after the Lib Dems' long purple patch, or defected to Labour after feeling betrayed by Clegg. We know that they are unusually defensive of Ed M ("one of us") and that they think little of their tactical alternative ("Tories are vile"). This is why I think tactical voting by Labour for either Conservatives or Ukip will be limited and Ashcroft polls evidence this view to some extent; it means I am a little more optimistic than the market about Labour's chances in some three-way contests.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited February 2015

    Speedy said:

    FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    You don't believe there were Russian Bear long range bombers off the Cornish coast yesterday?
    Drop the jingo for a moment, "Russian Bear long range bombers" HA.
    Made in the 1950's and using propellers those things can be shot with WW2 anti-aircraft defences.
    What's jingoistic about pointing out uncomfortable truths about Russian military movements? They may well be old aircraft, but so was Nimrod. These are still long-range strategic weapons platforms that carry cruise missiles, or even nuclear weapons.

    Apologists for Putin's aggressive military provocations like you really need a better response than to accuse people who call him out on it as being jingoistic.
    If the russians are going to use nuclear weapons on Britain I assure you it will be with ICBMs not with silly overgrown ceessnas that belong to a museum.

    I repeat the charge, you are running scared of junk.
    BOOOO.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    I assume Jane going to 1-9 means it was her :P ?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited February 2015

    Its Jane

    Its Jane

    Big money for BB

    More money for Jane though!!!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025

    @DavidL

    "I just think that some UKIP supporters will be scared by the thought of Ed and Ed and will be persuaded to vote tory as a result for the good of the country."

    Many Conservative supporters are investing a great deal in that hope.

    As hopes go, it's not an unreasonable one. It may well be fulfilled. But sensible supporters like yourself recognise that it is a hope, and no more.

    Naturally I have my own hopes, and sometimes I bet on them, but I do like to get decent odds. Not sure what odds I'd want on the outcome you envisage here, but I'm sure it's no certainty.

    I agree with every word of that.

    But if the tories are losing thousands of votes in seats like those in Ld A's samples today and are still polling at about 36% by the election by definition they are doing a lot better in some areas than they did the last time.

    I still think Labour largest party, they just have too many advantages, but a more efficient Tory vote is their best bet of holding on.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    Speedy said:

    FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    You don't believe there were Russian Bear long range bombers off the Cornish coast yesterday?
    Drop the jingo for a moment, "Russian Bear long range bombers" HA.
    Made in the 1950's and using propellers those things can be shot with WW2 anti-aircraft defences.
    What's jingoistic about pointing out uncomfortable truths about Russian military movements? They may well be old aircraft, but so was Nimrod. These are still long-range strategic weapons platforms that carry cruise missiles, or even nuclear weapons.

    Apologists for Putin's aggressive military provocations like you really need a better response than to accuse people who call him out on it as being jingoistic.
    They are flying in international airspace and have been making these flights several times a month for years, hence not news.

  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    My father attended a NATO conference in Germany in the early 1970s when the Soviet Union was thought to have overwhelming force and the job of the Nato forces in Europe was thought to be to hold on for a few days whilst the politicians found an alternative to going nuclear.
    The Americans set out their withdrawal positions to which they would fall back once the Soviet tanks made it onto the Hohne Heath past the Harz mountains. The British did the same. The French planned to fall back somewhere north of Paris.

    All morning the Germans said nothing and someone finally noticed and asked their plans. The answer was simple: "We are going to Berlin".

    At that time West Germany was the only NATO country whose kit was on a par with the US and their discipline, efficiency and speed was evident even to a child like me. My father certainly thought very highly of them.
    Only the West Germans and US maintained significant armoured and infantry divisions. Around 10-15 which, whilst way inferior to the Soviets, certainly enough to do some damage. There was talk of tactical local nuclear defence but I very much doubt that'd ever have Ben used.

    I think the UK maintained 2-3 armoured/infantry divisions there at its peak, but happy to be corrected.
    I think the reality, as demonstrated by later events, was that the Soviet threat was being substantially overrated and they might well have lost a conventional war even in the early 70s. But that was definitely not the general perception at the time.
    Apparently the soviet union lleaders pooped themselves in 1982 after the Falklands showed that a small highly trained professional army could take on and destroy a conscript army several times the size of them.
  • Survation not only are UKIP's in house pollsters, confirmation they poll for the Lib Dems as well

    The Liberal Democrats believe women and young voters switching from the Conservatives will help them secure enough seats to play a key role in another coalition government after the general election.

    Over the last year the party has privately conducted just over 100 constituency polls that give it grounds to believe enough women and young voters have switched in recent months to make their participation in a further coalition the most likely outcome of the election in May.

    The Lib Dems are spending £350,000 on constituency polling at the insistence of the party’s director of strategy, Ryan Coetzee. He demanded the unprecedented budget, telling the party leader and deputy prime minister, Nick Clegg, if he did not poll in key seats he would be “just another person in Westminster with an opinion”.

    It is understood the party has the capacity to conduct a marginal seat poll every day, although in practice it is unlikely to poll that much between now and election day.

    The party strategists’ decision selectively to share the private polling conducted by Survation is in part an attempt to show strong local performance will prevent a serious wipeout despite dire national polls. The polls show a boost in the party standing in the last six months especially among women and voters aged 18 to 34. The switchers are mainly coming from Tories or undecideds, and predominantly in Tory-held seats.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/19/lib-dem-polling-brings-hope-of-future-coalition-role?utm_content=buffer10dc9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
  • Just a reminder, Survation had Clegg losing Hallam few weeks ago.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    MikeK said:

    NATOSource ‏@NATOSource 34m34 minutes ago
    German Soldiers Used Broomsticks Instead of Guns During NATO Exercise http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/german-soldiers-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-nato-exercise … #Germany #NRF #Norway

    Way to go NATO!

    My father attended a NATO conference in Germany in the early 1970s when the Soviet Union was thought to have overwhelming force and the job of the Nato forces in Europe was thought to be to hold on for a few days whilst the politicians found an alternative to going nuclear.
    The Americans set out their withdrawal positions to which they would fall back once the Soviet tanks made it onto the Hohne Heath past the Harz mountains. The British did the same. The French planned to fall back somewhere north of Paris.

    All morning the Germans said nothing and someone finally noticed and asked their plans. The answer was simple: "We are going to Berlin".

    At that time West Germany was the only NATO country whose kit was on a par with the US and their discipline, efficiency and speed was evident even to a child like me. My father certainly thought very highly of them.
    Only the West Germans and US maintained significant armoured and infantry divisions. Around 10-15 which, whilst way inferior to the Soviets, certainly enough to do some damage. There was talk of tactical local nuclear defence but I very much doubt that'd ever have Ben used.

    I think the UK maintained 2-3 armoured/infantry divisions there at its peak, but happy to be corrected.
    I think the reality, as demonstrated by later events, was that the Soviet threat was being substantially overrated and they might well have lost a conventional war even in the early 70s. But that was definitely not the general perception at the time.
    Apparently the soviet union lleaders pooped themselves in 1982 after the Falklands showed that a small highly trained professional army could take on and destroy a conscript army several times the size of them.
    I can well believe that. As Casino_Royale points out they had the numbers but I very much doubt they had the quality.

    From the 1980s onwards the difference in the quality of kit, particularly as the Reagan growth in expenditure came online made it obvious that they could not compete.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Ishmael_X said:

    Speedy said:

    FalseFlag said:

    philiph said:

    FalseFlag said:

    Neil said:

    Presumably False Flag believes that the RAF was scrambled to intercept rebel or even Ukranian planes. Certainly not Russian ones. They never stray beyond their own air space!

    International airspace is international. Free to fly there and have done so a couple of times a month for years. Clear case of war propaganda that suddenly the press is reporting it.
    Putin has a plan.

    Ukraine, Crimea, land link to Crimea, Black sea ports and coastline, the area of Ukraine with most shale oil and gas. Job just about done. International reaction tested.

    Baltic is next for a Putin test. NATO, EU, what will they do. How scared and impotent are they?

    Popular nationalism at home.

    He is a very dangerous man.
    It's a plan he is not aware of. What scares me about the Western propaganda is not that it is so voluminously produced but that the people dispensing it believe it.
    You don't believe there were Russian Bear long range bombers off the Cornish coast yesterday?
    Drop the jingo for a moment, "Russian Bear long range bombers" HA.
    Made in the 1950's and using propellers those things can be shot with WW2 anti-aircraft defences.
    No they weren't, they first flew in 1952 as did the B-52, which the US intends to keep operational into the 2040s, but existing aircraft all date from the 1980s-90s. I have given up trying to understand what other points you are trying to make but if they aren't long range bombers then what, in your view, are they?

    The B-52's are more modern than those (1952 American technology was far ahead than the 1952 Soviet one), but they are in use and kept in use by America because they are fighting wars with some third world dictatorships that don't have an airforce anyway.
    Also they are way cheaper to use that modern bombers.

    That is the point though:"but they are in use and kept in use because they are fighting wars with some third world dictatorships that don't have an airforce anyway."

    The russian flying junk is as terrifying to a country that has an aiforce, as a North Korean "please take notice of the mighty dear leader, pleaaaase" ultimatum to America.
  • It's not Jane it's Bobby, get your house on it quickly
This discussion has been closed.