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SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited February 2015 in General
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  • Not first!
  • Well none of them are exactly thought of with a warm glow by the general public.
  • This is the quandary for Tory planners. They are convinced that Ed is a loser so want to keep talking about him. Yet the new Labour media approach seems to be Ed announcing stuff. So the positives that people are taking from the Labour position are increasingly being announced by Ed.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    the positives that people are taking from the Labour position are increasingly being announced by Ed.

    So far all of Ed's big announcement have been duds.

    Ed on the NHS (don't mention Wales)

    Ed on business (don't mention real business people)

    Ed on tax (don't mentions Ed's tax)
  • Would it be lazy, psephologically, to add the Party and leader scores together to get a complete brand figure.

    Con & Cameron -15.44
    Lab & Miliband -18.12
    Lib Dems & Clegg -35.57
    UKIP & Farage -54.12
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Tory plus Cameron brand = -15.44

    Labour plus Ed brand = -18.12

    LibDems plus Clegg = -35.57

    UKIP plus Farage = -54.12

    What people least dislike is the Tories led by Cameron, as a package.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Mike Smithson said, "I do think there’s a tendency for the Tories to over-estimate the Miliband fact and to underestimate the ongoing appeal of Labour. "

    Mike - please can you define "the ongoing appeal of Labour."
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Would it be lazy, psephologically, to add the Party and leader scores together to get a complete brand figure.

    Con & Cameron -15.44
    Lab & Miliband -18.12
    Lib Dems & Clegg -35.57
    UKIP & Farage -54.12

    It assumes they are equal weight in peoples minds. Mr Crosby's projections appear to suggest the leader matters more than the party. Also you would expect the brand ranking to track VI, so the kippers should be ahead of the LDs.

  • Con & Cameron -15.44
    Lab & Miliband -18.12

    Pretty much a dead heat - much where the polls are......
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Afternoon all,

    Just seen the ICM - decided to take some Con Seats, Con Votes at ~ 1.92 off the back of it. Not convinced all Betfair punters understand the electoral dynamics at play all too well.
  • Combining the two scores I don't think works because surely the combination is already made at least to a certain extent. If you ask about brand Labour, some element of that consideration includes its leader as with all the other parties, especially UKIP
  • Pulpstar said:

    Afternoon all,

    Just seen the ICM - decided to take some Con Seats, Con Votes at ~ 1.92 off the back of it. Not convinced all Betfair punters understand the electoral dynamics at play all too well.

    I think ICM sub-samples, which the Guardian have repeated, is making a lot of people think that the Tory vote to seats efficiency is going to improve a lot this election.

    Even Peter Kellner has said for a while, he's convinced whomever wins the most votes, gets the most seats.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    Afternoon all,

    Just seen the ICM - decided to take some Con Seats, Con Votes at ~ 1.92 off the back of it. Not convinced all Betfair punters understand the electoral dynamics at play all too well.

    I think ICM sub-samples, which the Guardian have repeated, is making a lot of people think that the Tory vote to seats efficiency is going to improve a lot this election.

    Even Peter Kellner has said for a while, he's convinced whomever wins the most votes, gets the most seats.
    The point is that I've got the other side of the Tory vote/seat switcheroo at ~ 40-1 ;) Con most seats currently at 1.72 so buying at 1.9 is good even with the 5% comission. Will need to update the votes/seats spreadsheet at home but I'm getting nicely green on all the options.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    grahambc1 said:

    Combining the two scores I don't think works because surely the combination is already made at least to a certain extent. If you ask about brand Labour, some element of that consideration includes its leader as with all the other parties, especially UKIP

    But they come as a package. What they show is Labour should have replaced Ed when they had the chance.

    Hur hur hur.....
  • Random thought:

    Could there be a Con-Lab coalition where they get ministers for the things they are supposedly strong on like NHS and Welfare, and the tories get Chancellor + Defence? (+education IMHO) Is that sort of thing actually what quite a lot of voters want?!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    But they come as a package. What they show is Labour should have replaced Ed when they had the chance.

    Hur hur hur.....

    Maybe it's not too late...
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    Afternoon all.

    Can't remember if i'd said hello but thought i'd introduce myself just in case. Red supporter usually found ranting on LL about subjects various.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Glad the Scottish subsample was abysmal for Labour too, very heavily on the SNP there.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Random thought:

    Could there be a Con-Lab coalition where they get ministers for the things they are supposedly strong on like NHS and Welfare, and the tories get Chancellor + Defence? (+education IMHO) Is that sort of thing actually what quite a lot of voters want?!

    Lab can be the heart, Cons can be the head.
  • SunnyJim said:

    Afternoon all.

    Can't remember if i'd said hello but thought i'd introduce myself just in case. Red supporter usually found ranting on LL about subjects various.

    Hello Mr Jim
  • Random thought:

    Could there be a Con-Lab coalition where they get ministers for the things they are supposedly strong on like NHS and Welfare, and the tories get Chancellor + Defence? (+education IMHO) Is that sort of thing actually what quite a lot of voters want?!

    Think we'd probably need a good old fashioned war for that one.

  • SunnyJim said:

    Afternoon all.

    Can't remember if i'd said hello but thought i'd introduce myself just in case. Red supporter usually found ranting on LL about subjects various.

    Welcome, SunnyJim.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited February 2015
    GE2015 isn't about brands, or Ed Miliband, or Cameron. Like GE2010, it's about whether the country wants to face reality, or bury its collective heads in the sand and pretend that all the difficult decisions can be fudged.

    The answer in 2010 was ambiguous, but since then we seem to have gone backwards somewhat in the public's engagement with reality. In some ways this is a testament to the success of the coalition, which has pushed concerns about the economy down the priority list. In any case denial of reality is not just a UK phenomenon; all around Europe you can see a reluctance to accept that there is no alternative to policies which cause pain in the short-term.

    We have been here before, of course: for a decade and a half from the mid-1960s, everyone could see what was wrong but they couldn't bring themselves to fix it. We may well be in for another decade or so of decline, if we repeat the same kind of mistake now.

    On a more positive note, though, the fact that Ed Miliband's brand of incoherent, populist, anti-business nonsense is near-universally derided even by Labour supporters is quite encouraging. On the morning of May 8th we shall see whether sanity has prevailed.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Afternoon all,

    Just seen the ICM - decided to take some Con Seats, Con Votes at ~ 1.92 off the back of it. Not convinced all Betfair punters understand the electoral dynamics at play all too well.

    I think ICM sub-samples, which the Guardian have repeated, is making a lot of people think that the Tory vote to seats efficiency is going to improve a lot this election.

    Even Peter Kellner has said for a while, he's convinced whomever wins the most votes, gets the most seats.
    That clearly can't be true at the absolute margins where the parties are within a couple of seats of each other. Whether it's Con 281 Lab 280 or Lab 281 Con 280 the national shares will be almost identical.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,384
    edited February 2015
    I notice the ICM/Guardian poll from February 2010 wasn't that far away from the final result;

    Con 37% Lab 30% Lib-Dem 20%

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2/icm
  • grahambc1 said:

    Combining the two scores I don't think works because surely the combination is already made at least to a certain extent. If you ask about brand Labour, some element of that consideration includes its leader as with all the other parties, especially UKIP

    But they come as a package. What they show is Labour should have replaced Ed when they had the chance.

    Hur hur hur.....
    They come as a package precisely and yet that package overall is still seen as positive and leading on average in polls, besides any other leader would have capitulated Blair style or have been equally savaged by the press
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited February 2015
    @SunnyJim
    Welcome to blue hell..
    First time in "Nam" kid?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    edited February 2015

    Pulpstar said:

    Afternoon all,

    Just seen the ICM - decided to take some Con Seats, Con Votes at ~ 1.92 off the back of it. Not convinced all Betfair punters understand the electoral dynamics at play all too well.

    I think ICM sub-samples, which the Guardian have repeated, is making a lot of people think that the Tory vote to seats efficiency is going to improve a lot this election.

    Even Peter Kellner has said for a while, he's convinced whomever wins the most votes, gets the most seats.
    That clearly can't be true at the absolute margins where the parties are within a couple of seats of each other. Whether it's Con 281 Lab 280 or Lab 281 Con 280 the national shares will be almost identical.
    This is true.

    This is what he wrote

    No longer. Uniform swing is now worse than useless. It is positively misleading. In particular, Labour can no longer hope to emerge as the largest party next May, even if it trails Conservatives significantly in votes....

    ...All that said, the overall conclusion is clear: Britain-wide uniform swing projections won’t work this time; and, unless the total votes won by Labour and the Conservatives are extremely close, it is pretty certain that the party with the more votes will end up with the more seats. Labour can forget dreams of ending up the largest party even if it wins a million fewer votes than the Tories.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/12/01/uniform-swing-rip/
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I really like LList. Welcome Aboard.
    SunnyJim said:

    Afternoon all.

    Can't remember if i'd said hello but thought i'd introduce myself just in case. Red supporter usually found ranting on LL about subjects various.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Smarmeron said:

    @SunnyJim
    Welcome to blue hell..
    First time in "Nam" kid?

    Like
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    Afternoon all,

    Just seen the ICM - decided to take some Con Seats, Con Votes at ~ 1.92 off the back of it. Not convinced all Betfair punters understand the electoral dynamics at play all too well.

    I think ICM sub-samples, which the Guardian have repeated, is making a lot of people think that the Tory vote to seats efficiency is going to improve a lot this election.

    Even Peter Kellner has said for a while, he's convinced whomever wins the most votes, gets the most seats.
    That clearly can't be true at the absolute margins where the parties are within a couple of seats of each other. Whether it's Con 281 Lab 280 or Lab 281 Con 280 the national shares will be almost identical.
    This is true.

    This is what he wrote

    No longer. Uniform swing is now worse than useless. It is positively misleading. In particular, Labour can no longer hope to emerge as the largest party next May, even if it trails Conservatives significantly in votes....

    ...All that said, the overall conclusion is clear: Britain-wide uniform swing projections won’t work this time; and, unless the total votes won by Labour and the Conservatives are extremely close, it is pretty certain that the party with the more votes will end up with the more seats. Labour can forget dreams of ending up the largest party even if it wins a million fewer votes than the Tories.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/12/01/uniform-swing-rip/
    Having built up a big green on Conservative votes, Labour seats by backing those two options I've laid off the middle directly in the Electoral Bias market and used that market to good effect to build green elsewhere - been a bit of a gift that particular market.
  • Its not the Blue element thats hell. Its keeping up with the pace of posts. Some of us have (a) a job and (b) actual politics to be getting on with. I do like dipping in and out though
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    GE2015 isn't about brands, or Ed Miliband, or Cameron. Like GE2010, it's about whether the country wants to face reality, or bury its collective heads in the sand and pretend that all the difficult decisions can be fudged.

    The answer in 2010 was ambiguous, but since then we seem to have gone backwards somewhat in the public's engagement with reality. In some ways this is a testament to the success of the coalition, which has pushed concerns about the economy down the priority list. In any case denial of reality is not just a UK phenomenon; all around Europe you can see a reluctance to accept that there is no alternative to policies which cause pain in the short-term.

    We have been here before, of course: for a decade and a half from the mid-1960s, everyone could see what was wrong but they couldn't bring themselves to fix it. We may well be in for another decade or so of decline, if we repeat the same kind of mistake now.

    On a more positive note, though, the fact that Ed Miliband's brand of incoherent, populist, anti-business nonsense is near-universally derided even by Labour supporters is quite encouraging. On the morning of May 8th we shall see whether sanity has prevailed.

    Wrong.

    GE2015 is about perception. People are exhausted listening to prattle about deficit, debt, structural this, inflation that.

    GE2015 is about head vs heart, competence vs compassion.

    We have established that all political parties are the same (copyright:R Brand, Church of England).

    So it becomes a question of whether you are willing to accept more nastiness and a continued recovery, albeit you understand it is the "wrong type of recovery"; or are happy to risk the economy stalling, and us ending up back where we started, but aiming for the "right kind of recovery".
  • Hengists_GiftHengists_Gift Posts: 628
    edited February 2015
    A couple of years can make a lot of difference. WIth UKIP not in the frame it used to be the Tories that were the most toxic. The difference being that most voters knew more than enough about the Tories whereas chances are apart from the smearing propaganda that both parties have suffered they actually don't know a great deal about UKIP.:

    Labour is less 'toxic' to voters than Conservatives, says poll

    Boost for Miliband as 70% leave door open for party while 42% say that they would never vote for a Tory government

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/sep/24/labour-toxic-voters-conservatives-poll

    In those days the Libdems were less toxic than the Tories. Now look whats happened to them!

    As for UKIP was last night one smear too far?

    ‘Ukip: The First 100 Days’ shows the media prefers to laugh at than understand the party

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/culturehousedaily/2015/02/ukip-the-first-100-days-shows-the-media-finds-it-easier-to-laugh-at-than-understand-the-party/

    Quite a lot of general rejection of the C4 smearfest.
  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    edited February 2015
    I have received nothing through my letterbox despite my seat changing hands in the last two 'wave elections' (became Tory last election, became Labour in 1997).

    I do live in a very Conservative area, though, so maybe the parties are more sophisticated at targeting than I believe.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited February 2015
    It looks like Davis Love III will be the US captain for the 2016 Ryder Cup in Hazeltine Minnesota. Initial reaction has been largely negative, as folks were expecting Azinger or Couples. Player reaction is more positive.

    The wounds from 2012 in Medinah are still very very deep here.

    I work Love's tournament every fall.

    Rumor is Darren Clarke will be the euros captain
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590
    Financier said:

    Mike Smithson said, "I do think there’s a tendency for the Tories to over-estimate the Miliband fact and to underestimate the ongoing appeal of Labour. "

    Mike - please can you define "the ongoing appeal of Labour."

    As Dire Straits claimed money for nothing
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,191
    A Scottish version of the positive / negative chart would be a useful comparison.

    Also, where are the ratings for Green / Bennett and Respect / Galloway???
  • TOPPING said:

    GE2015 isn't about brands, or Ed Miliband, or Cameron. Like GE2010, it's about whether the country wants to face reality, or bury its collective heads in the sand and pretend that all the difficult decisions can be fudged.

    The answer in 2010 was ambiguous, but since then we seem to have gone backwards somewhat in the public's engagement with reality. In some ways this is a testament to the success of the coalition, which has pushed concerns about the economy down the priority list. In any case denial of reality is not just a UK phenomenon; all around Europe you can see a reluctance to accept that there is no alternative to policies which cause pain in the short-term.

    We have been here before, of course: for a decade and a half from the mid-1960s, everyone could see what was wrong but they couldn't bring themselves to fix it. We may well be in for another decade or so of decline, if we repeat the same kind of mistake now.

    On a more positive note, though, the fact that Ed Miliband's brand of incoherent, populist, anti-business nonsense is near-universally derided even by Labour supporters is quite encouraging. On the morning of May 8th we shall see whether sanity has prevailed.

    Wrong.

    GE2015 is about perception. People are exhausted listening to prattle about deficit, debt, structural this, inflation that.

    GE2015 is about head vs heart, competence vs compassion.

    We have established that all political parties are the same (copyright:R Brand, Church of England).

    So it becomes a question of whether you are willing to accept more nastiness and a continued recovery, albeit you understand it is the "wrong type of recovery"; or are happy to risk the economy stalling, and us ending up back where we started, but aiming for the "right kind of recovery".
    Not sure most people have even engaged at the level you are describing. Most voters barely aware there's an election.
  • Oliver_PB said:

    I have received nothing through my letterbox despite my seat changing hands in the last two 'wave elections' (became Tory last election, became Labour in 1997).

    I do live in a very Conservative area, though, so maybe the parties are more sophisticated at targeting than I believe.

    They are. I live in a seat, that the Lib Dems are in desperate need of Tory tactical voters, it is astonishing the levels they are going to target voters.
  • Oliver_PB said:

    I have received nothing through my letterbox despite my seat changing hands in the last two 'wave elections' (became Tory last election, became Labour in 1997).

    Can I ask which seat?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited February 2015
    I do hope that the bishop who was in the lunchtime news on R4 protesting that nothing in what the Church of England says in its letter has any relevance to aligning with any political party (or to avoid any particular party for that matter,) understands that to speak falsely is sinful.
    It is absolutely clear to me that the letter is a big hint not to vote for one particular party.

    Perhaps its time to investigate the Church and what it gets up to, I am sure there is a whole heap of hypocrisy to be uncovered.

  • GIN1138 said:

    I notice the ICM/Guardian poll from February 2010 wasn't that far away from the final result;
    Con 37% Lab 30% Lib-Dem 20%
    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2/icm

    No it is an outlier - or some may hope?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Mike - please can you define "the ongoing appeal of Labour."

    The ongoing appeal of labour = 'I'm nice'
  • SunnyJim said:

    Afternoon all.

    Can't remember if i'd said hello but thought i'd introduce myself just in case. Red supporter usually found ranting on LL about subjects various.

    Welcome aboard. Do you bet? Occasionally this site dedicates itself to discussion of wagers and so forth.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Ladbrokes' 5/1 on Con minority government looks like quite a good value bet to me.

    Anyone else?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    taffys said:

    Mike - please can you define "the ongoing appeal of Labour."

    The ongoing appeal of labour = 'I'm nice'

    The ongoing appeal of labour = They give me a handout
  • Pong said:

    Ladbrokes' 5/1 on Con minority government looks like quite a good value bet to me.

    Anyone else?

    Con/LD at 6/1 looks fairly tasty too. I am rather stoked up on a Lab-LD-SNP coalition which with hindsight may have been one of my rasher moves given all that Sturgeon has been saying lately.
  • Pong said:

    Ladbrokes' 5/1 on Con minority government looks like quite a good value bet to me.

    Anyone else?

    I got on at 10/1 back in October.
  • I do hope that bishop who was in the lunchtime news on R4 protesting that nothing in what the Church of England says in its lretter has any relevance to aligninging with any political party (or to avoid any particular party for that matter,) understands that to speak falsely is sinful.

    It's worth reading the (very lengthy) letter. I disagree with large tracts of it, but it's evidently received a lot of thought. You'd be hard-pushed to describe it as particularly pro- any one party though it does have a long section saying how much they like the idea of the Big Society as espoused by the Conservatives at the last election.

    It is fair to say that the style of politics as practised by UKIP would not fit very well with the ambitions of the bishops as expressed in that letter.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    This is the quandary for Tory planners. They are convinced that Ed is a loser so want to keep talking about him. Yet the new Labour media approach seems to be Ed announcing stuff. So the positives that people are taking from the Labour position are increasingly being announced by Ed.

    You're assuming that the warm glow about Labour is related to their policies.

    I don't think it is particularly.
  • Mr. Jim, welcome to pb.com.

    Mr. Root, priests interfering in politics is backward and belongs in the 12th century, not the modern era. Mitre-clad morons.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    I could believe in the idea of a popular leader having the ability to drag his or her party up to success but not a "less unpopular" one like Cameron.

    Don't forget Cameron's satisfaction numbers always include the universal support he has amongst current Conservative voters. In the last Ipsos Mori Cameron's net satisfaction numbers for non Conservative voters was -53, that is only slightly better than Miliband's non Labour total of -58.

    It's a same story for the party brands, Labour may be "less unpopular" than the Conservatives but if they're still both in negative territory, then it isn't going to be much of an asset. People aren't going to come out in numbers to vote for a party that they dislike a bit less.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    Pong said:

    Ladbrokes' 5/1 on Con minority government looks like quite a good value bet to me.

    Anyone else?

    I got on at 10/1 back in October.
    Yeah, I remember clocking that. 10/1 was a great price.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. Jim, welcome to pb.com.

    Mr. Root, priests interfering in politics is backward and belongs in the 12th century, not the modern era. Mitre-clad morons.

    I think the Islamic Jihad would be familiar and comfortable with the 12th century, although they would much prefer earlier centuries.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Pulpstar said:

    Afternoon all,

    Just seen the ICM - decided to take some Con Seats, Con Votes at ~ 1.92 off the back of it. Not convinced all Betfair punters understand the electoral dynamics at play all too well.

    I think ICM sub-samples, which the Guardian have repeated, is making a lot of people think that the Tory vote to seats efficiency is going to improve a lot this election.

    Even Peter Kellner has said for a while, he's convinced whomever wins the most votes, gets the most seats.
    That clearly can't be true at the absolute margins where the parties are within a couple of seats of each other. Whether it's Con 281 Lab 280 or Lab 281 Con 280 the national shares will be almost identical.
    This is true.

    This is what he wrote

    No longer. Uniform swing is now worse than useless. It is positively misleading. In particular, Labour can no longer hope to emerge as the largest party next May, even if it trails Conservatives significantly in votes....

    ...All that said, the overall conclusion is clear: Britain-wide uniform swing projections won’t work this time; and, unless the total votes won by Labour and the Conservatives are extremely close, it is pretty certain that the party with the more votes will end up with the more seats. Labour can forget dreams of ending up the largest party even if it wins a million fewer votes than the Tories.

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/12/01/uniform-swing-rip/
    bbbbubbbut...that...that would mean BJO's "EICIPM" is a waste of everyone's time and pixels?
  • You only have to look at the way so many Tories on here react to Mike's statement about the on-going appeal of labour to understand why so many people in this country could never vote Tory.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited February 2015
    antifrank said:

    I do hope that bishop who was in the lunchtime news on R4 protesting that nothing in what the Church of England says in its lretter has any relevance to aligninging with any political party (or to avoid any particular party for that matter,) understands that to speak falsely is sinful.

    It's worth reading the (very lengthy) letter. I disagree with large tracts of it, but it's evidently received a lot of thought. You'd be hard-pushed to describe it as particularly pro- any one party though it does have a long section saying how much they like the idea of the Big Society as espoused by the Conservatives at the last election.

    It is fair to say that the style of politics as practised by UKIP would not fit very well with the ambitions of the bishops as expressed in that letter.
    I have only read the BBC take and assume its a fair reflection of the whole. Frankly the bishops should butt out of politics, time for them to lose their seats in the Lords and then they can say what they like. They have made me very angry and that's not good considering I have only just started to go to church again on a infrequent basis.
  • Charles said:

    This is the quandary for Tory planners. They are convinced that Ed is a loser so want to keep talking about him. Yet the new Labour media approach seems to be Ed announcing stuff. So the positives that people are taking from the Labour position are increasingly being announced by Ed.

    You're assuming that the warm glow about Labour is related to their policies.

    I don't think it is particularly.

    Nope, it's a reflection on what people think about the Tories.

  • antifrank said:

    I do hope that bishop who was in the lunchtime news on R4 protesting that nothing in what the Church of England says in its lretter has any relevance to aligninging with any political party (or to avoid any particular party for that matter,) understands that to speak falsely is sinful.

    It's worth reading the (very lengthy) letter. I disagree with large tracts of it, but it's evidently received a lot of thought. You'd be hard-pushed to describe it as particularly pro- any one party though it does have a long section saying how much they like the idea of the Big Society as espoused by the Conservatives at the last election.

    It is fair to say that the style of politics as practised by UKIP would not fit very well with the ambitions of the bishops as expressed in that letter.
    I have only read the BBC take and assume its a fair reflection of the whole. Frankly the bishops should but out of politics, time for them to lose their seats in the Lords and then they can say what they like. They have made me very angry and that's not good considering I have only just started to go to church again on a infrequent basis.
    Have a read:

    https://www.churchofengland.org/media/2170230/whoismyneighbour-pages.pdf
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    edited February 2015
    Pong said:

    Ladbrokes' 5/1 on Con minority government looks like quite a good value bet to me.

    Anyone else?

    I don't like it. There are 3 ways that happens:

    1. The Tories win 324 seats, or a similar number so close to 326 they govern alone but as a minority.
    2. The Tories win 318 seats, or a similar number not close enough to govern alone but they form a government with the DUP or another non-LD party.
    3. The Tories win 310 seats, or a similar number requiring LD support for a government AND the LDs don't demand another full coalition.
    4. Another non-LD party wins a surprising number of seats and agrees to assist the Tories without a formal coalition. Presumably a 'non-aggression pact' with the SNP in return for stuff.

    The first two cases are, in my view, very unlikely. The third is also pretty unlikely since the LDs probably won't go for it. I think you are therefore betting on too narrow a band of seats for the Tories to win. The wildcard is the SNP, but I think they know their supporters wouldn't forgive them for 'propping up' a Tory government however good the deal.

    Anything below 310ish seats the Tories need the LDs, which likely means a coalition. Anything above 325 seats isn't a Tory minority. I think it's too tight to bet on for my liking.

    Personally I'm on Lab Minority at 13/2, though I might nab some Tory/LD too if 6/1 is still available.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    I do hope that bishop who was in the lunchtime news on R4 protesting that nothing in what the Church of England says in its lretter has any relevance to aligninging with any political party (or to avoid any particular party for that matter,) understands that to speak falsely is sinful.

    It's worth reading the (very lengthy) letter. I disagree with large tracts of it, but it's evidently received a lot of thought. You'd be hard-pushed to describe it as particularly pro- any one party though it does have a long section saying how much they like the idea of the Big Society as espoused by the Conservatives at the last election.

    It is fair to say that the style of politics as practised by UKIP would not fit very well with the ambitions of the bishops as expressed in that letter.
    I have only read the BBC take and assume its a fair reflection of the whole. Frankly the bishops should but out of politics, time for them to lose their seats in the Lords and then they can say what they like. They have made me very angry and that's not good considering I have only just started to go to church again on a infrequent basis.
    Have a read:

    https://www.churchofengland.org/media/2170230/whoismyneighbour-pages.pdf
    thanks I will.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    You only have to look at the way so many Tories on here react to Mike's statement about the on-going appeal of labour to understand why so many people in this country could never vote Tory.

    Can you present some examples about the "so many Tories"?

    The posts I've seem suggest it is brand/reputation rather than specific policies that drive that advantage. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable.
  • Given the Queen is the head of the Church Of England haven't the bishops now compromised her constitutionally?i do hope they consulted their monarch or we may have a rerun of 'Who will rid me of these turbulent priests'.
  • Would it be lazy, psephologically, to add the Party and leader scores together to get a complete brand figure.

    Con & Cameron -15.44
    Lab & Miliband -18.12
    Lib Dems & Clegg -35.57
    UKIP & Farage -54.12

    If you're going to do something like that, perhaps more worthwhile to look at the figures for "swing" voters, who might be more likely to be swayed by such considerations:

    Lab & Miliband -3.96
    Con & Cameron -12.68
    Lib Dems & Clegg -17.10
    UKIP & Farage -55.01

    It's interesting that, with the exception of UKIP/Farage the figures for the swing voters are more positive for all of the combinations of parties and leaders. Perhaps the centre ground of British politics is not as bitter, cynical and negative as we tend to think?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    If Tory + Lib Dem are in a coalition, but its a minority Gov't what the hell happens to bookie payouts ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    I'm talking about CON 295 seats, Lib Dem 28 that sort of scenario.
  • Pulpstar said:

    If Tory + Lib Dem are in a coalition, but its a minority Gov't what the hell happens to bookie payouts ?

    That (and still more so Lab+LD) is a distinct possibility. I think that they should pay out as coalitions between those parties rather than Con Min or Lab Min, but the scope for argument is considerable.
  • If you're going to do something like that, perhaps more worthwhile to look at the figures for "swing" voters, who might be more likely to be swayed by such considerations:

    Lab & Miliband -3.96
    Con & Cameron -12.68
    Lib Dems & Clegg -17.10
    UKIP & Farage -55.01

    It's interesting that, with the exception of UKIP/Farage the figures for the swing voters are more positive for all of the combinations of parties and leaders. Perhaps the centre ground of British politics is not as bitter, cynical and negative as we tend to think?

    You need to be a bit careful, Ashcroft's definition of 'swing' voters is rather eccentric - it is not the centre ground (i.e the old sense of Con/Lab swing voters), but anyone who says they might change their vote. That lumps together (for example) Labour voters tempted by the Greens with Con voters tempted by UKIP, and it's not obvious to me that that is a very useful classification.
  • Pulpstar said:

    If Tory + Lib Dem are in a coalition, but its a minority Gov't what the hell happens to bookie payouts ?

    It's a coalition, no bookie said the coalition had to command a majority, did they?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Given the Queen is the head of the Church Of England haven't the bishops now compromised her constitutionally?i do hope they consulted their monarch or we may have a rerun of 'Who will rid me of these turbulent priests'.

    That couldn't happen today - parking near Canterbury Cathedral is impossible
  • antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If Tory + Lib Dem are in a coalition, but its a minority Gov't what the hell happens to bookie payouts ?

    That (and still more so Lab+LD) is a distinct possibility. I think that they should pay out as coalitions between those parties rather than Con Min or Lab Min, but the scope for argument is considerable.
    They should pay out. The bet says nothing about coalitions commanding an absolute majority of the HoC, just that that type of coalition forms the next government.
  • There was a time when the CoE would take the lead on moral scandals such as the abuse of young girls.... Sad how they ignore beams and focus on motes.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    If no government can be formed, I assume the Conservatives would run a minority government until the second election. (fixed parliament willing)

    Otherwise I agree that I can't see many other scenarios where the Conservatives would end up running a minority government. They wouldn't have enough allies in the House of Commons to pass pretty much any of their manifesto.
  • Mr. B, surely the knights could be dropped off outside the Cathedral?

    Mr. B [part 2], indeed, the modern day 'caliphate' is far less civilised than perhaps every previous iteration.
  • On topic. If we are listing parties according to their relative levels of distaste to voters, we now have the LDs more disliked than Labour AND the Conservatives. Ironic or a game changer?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    You only have to look at the way so many Tories on here react to Mike's statement about the on-going appeal of labour to understand why so many people in this country could never vote Tory.

    So many Tories = 3

    I'm underwhelmed.
  • Mr. B, surely the knights could be dropped off outside the Cathedral?.

    I believe there's a Park-n-Ride scheme.
  • There is something cynical and sinister about priests who hide behind and manipulate 'the wishes' of an invisible god to further their political goals. The Church's intervention today is wrong and they should be severely castigated by HRM. They have seriously overstepped their bounds.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited February 2015
    p.14 para 30.

    The Church of England weighing in for electoral reform!

    (Edit: dear God (!) please don't let that be reason for a thread on the subject.)
  • Artist said:

    If no government can be formed, I assume the Conservatives would run a minority government until the second election. (fixed parliament willing)

    Otherwise I agree that I can't see many other scenarios where the Conservatives would end up running a minority government. They wouldn't have enough allies in the House of Commons to pass pretty much any of their manifesto.

    This. It seems likely that whats left of the LibDems will be politically some way to the left of their current intake. Which makes an ongoing Con-LD coalition unlikely and I'd be surprised if it got to a majority in seats even if by some miracle Clegg gets reelected stays leader and carries the party back to Shapps knocking shop.

    I can see Cameron trying to carry on alone with sub-300 (or even sub-290 seats) if Labour have been mauled by the SNP and there isn't an obvious alternative government. But I don't think it would last long into the new parliament even if it passes the inevitable confidence vote on day 1.

  • Would it be lazy, psephologically, to add the Party and leader scores together to get a complete brand figure.

    Con & Cameron -15.44
    Lab & Miliband -18.12
    Lib Dems & Clegg -35.57
    UKIP & Farage -54.12

    If you're going to do something like that, perhaps more worthwhile to look at the figures for "swing" voters, who might be more likely to be swayed by such considerations:

    Lab & Miliband -3.96
    Con & Cameron -12.68
    Lib Dems & Clegg -17.10
    UKIP & Farage -55.01

    It's interesting that, with the exception of UKIP/Farage the figures for the swing voters are more positive for all of the combinations of parties and leaders. Perhaps the centre ground of British politics is not as bitter, cynical and negative as we tend to think?
    That is a very good observation.
  • Hengists_GiftHengists_Gift Posts: 628
    edited February 2015
    Tim_B said:

    Given the Queen is the head of the Church Of England haven't the bishops now compromised her constitutionally?i do hope they consulted their monarch or we may have a rerun of 'Who will rid me of these turbulent priests'.

    That couldn't happen today - parking near Canterbury Cathedral is impossible
    They can walk from Canterbury West (less than an hour from London now on a good connection)! It will limber themselves up before the main event!
  • Own up, which one of you Kippers is this chap.

    http://order-order.com/2015/02/17/leave-ukip-alone/
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2015

    Mr. B, surely the knights could be dropped off outside the Cathedral?

    Mr. B [part 2], indeed, the modern day 'caliphate' is far less civilised than perhaps every previous iteration.

    I got a fine for opening my car door, while in a queue of traffic at the lights, to let my wife out. I happened to (partially) be In one of those dotted yellow boxes at the bus stop. The contention was that I must have been 'parked' to let my wife out, and parking in a bus stop is an offence. The door to the car was open for maybe 5 seconds but they had a lovely image from the nearby camera.

    The worst thing is I couldn't find either the time or energy to fight it (other than an email objection which I'm sure was rejected by robot), so I was just left with seething resentment at my local authority.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    In summary, the Conservatives' problem is that people think they're heartless; Labour's problem is that people think they're incompetent.
  • Hengists_GiftHengists_Gift Posts: 628
    edited February 2015

    Own up, which one of you Kippers is this chap.

    http://order-order.com/2015/02/17/leave-ukip-alone/

    I wish I was that young. Well that's livened the election up. I wonder if you can put his words to the Lily Allen song? Interesting to see if it goes viral too!
  • Mr. Anorak, the tyranny of jobsworths is a horrid thing indeed.

    Incidentally, if we had a space cannon it would be able to destroy Canterbury from hundreds of miles away. I bet the Coalition's regretting not funding my important work now.
  • Oh dear, talk about weaponising the NHS, and then blowing off your foot

    Scottish Labour leader deletes YouTube video after getting NHS stats wrong

    Jim Murphy deletes video and tweet after making false claims about cancelled hospital operations in Scotland based on misread figures

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/17/scottish-labour-leader-deletes-youtube-video-nhs-stats-wrong?CMP=share_btn_tw
  • There is something cynical and sinister about priests who hide behind and manipulate 'the wishes' of an invisible god to further their political goals. The Church's intervention today is wrong and they should be severely castigated by HRM. They have seriously overstepped their bounds.

    Indeed, Hengists.

    Who will rid us of these turbulent priests?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Is this their new game show?

    @steve_hawkes: Ed Miliband: "I've got 78 days to persuade Ant and Dec back on board, and I'm sure we can."
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. B, surely the knights could be dropped off outside the Cathedral?.

    I believe there's a Park-n-Ride scheme.
    "Will no one rid me of these turbulent priests?"

    "Only if they validate parking and drop us off right at the door, have enough space for sword storage and will wait to take us back to our car afterwards."

    It loses something somehow.....
  • Mr. Anorak, the tyranny of jobsworths is a horrid thing indeed.

    Incidentally, if we had a space cannon it would be able to destroy Canterbury from hundreds of miles away. I bet the Coalition's regretting not funding my important work now.

    If you do that Dave will be another seat down. Perhaps not a good idea in the circumstances?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Own up, which one of you Kippers is this chap.

    http://order-order.com/2015/02/17/leave-ukip-alone/

    I wish I was that young. Well that's livened the election up. I wonder if you can put his words to the Lily Allen song? Interesting to see if it goes viral too!
    Redo a certain Pink Floyd song: "Hey! TV! Leave UKIP alone"
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    edited February 2015
    The wording of the church letter on unemployment:-

    "It is good that unemployment has not risen as high as was predicted, or as high as past experience suggested it would"

    Wouldn't "it is good that unemployment has fallen, after predictions that it would significantly rise" be a more honest way to put it?
  • Mr. P, Ant and Dec host: Vote Silly, Get Mili - ITV's ground-breaking new reality TV show as fifty million people take part in deciding who gets to govern Britain.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "underestimate the ongoing appeal of Labour"

    Hilarious - outside the vested interest group of public sector workers there is no appeal.
This discussion has been closed.