And proposing to abolish the monarchy is one thing, a proposal to depose Queen Elizabeth II and dump her in a council house after over 60 years public service is another.
The vast majority of the population are happy with a reasonable pension and comfortable retirement. Of course they get that retirement for doing real work, not avoiding people other than to say "vewy nice" and waving a few times a year while flunkies paid for by the State do any actual work required.
Billions of pounds of the country's wealth seems quite excessive a golden handshake for a 10 hour week and millions per annum in Welfare payments.
Queen Elizabeth II would be evicted from Buckingham Palace and moved into a council house in plans to abolish the monarchy and build more social housing, as suggested by the Greens leader.
The monarchy has far less support than the BBC and MSM would have you believe with something like a third of those in England and Wales and perhaps half of those in Scotland quite happy to see it abolished.
You'll need to check the source for DNKs which will be important here.
General impression from past is a smaller majority for the monarchy but a substantially greater republican minority than in England (some polling produced only about 50% for). However, note that
1. Being a supporter of a monarch as Head of State does not equate to supporting all the paraphernalia, etc. such as the Civil List and Lords - some of those will be in favour of a slimmed down royalty, abolition of honours in their current state, the *Duke of Rothesay's interference in legislation, etc.
2. This is very context-dependent: HM has a rather different image, let's say, than some other members of the RF.
*PoW to some of you
And proposing to abolish the monarchy is one thing, a proposal to depose Queen Elizabeth II and dump her in a council house after over 60 years public service is another.
Wasn't my proposal in the first place, of course (and I'd be open to modernisation rather than deletion myself if anyone asked me). So I'll let you argue it out with Dair. But it did strike me that that is not much of an argument against abolition, as that is after all the way in which many of her 'servants' (sensu lato) have been treated by the State in recent decades. Servicemen and servicewomen in particular.
And proposing to abolish the monarchy is one thing, a proposal to depose Queen Elizabeth II and dump her in a council house after over 60 years public service is another.
The vast majority of the population are happy with a reasonable pension and comfortable retirement. Of course they get that retirement for doing real work, not avoiding people other than to say "vewy nice" and waving a few times a year while flunkies paid for by the State do any actual work required.
Billions of pounds of the country's wealth seems quite excessive a golden handshake for a 10 hour week and millions per annum in Welfare payments.
Just so relieved we didn't draw. Europa last 32, League Cup SF and PL is quite enough.
Two Disney Cups for reserves and a battle for 5th?
Glory Glory!
Isam are you a Spurs supporter? If so I forgive you everything and declare you, without doubt, the finest poster on pb.
Actually there's one hell of a pot of gold at the end of the Europa marathon. Every club in Britain would give their eye teeth now to win the Europa. As a result it's 1000x more significant than the FA Cup. Which is very, very, sad really. I loved the days when the FA Cup meant something: always on a Saturday and pitted the giants against the minnows. Since the CL and the way the CL has enveloped top 4 finishers, I don't think the big clubs honestly now give a fiddlestick for the FA Cup.
6 Scottish Labour MPs have decided to retire so far:
Gordon Brown (Kirkcaldy) Alistair Darling (Edinburgh SW) Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) Frank Doran (Aberdeen N) David Hamilton (Midlothian) Anne McGuire (Stirling)
breaking: UKIP MEP suspended over "extremely serious" financial and business issues...
@PaulBrandITV: UKIP had told Amjad Bashir not to associate with Mujeeb Bhutto, who was pushed out of party for being the head of a Pakistani kidnap gang.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
There is an article in this week's Spectator about the surprising amount of support France's National Front is getting from gays and Jews; the latter did surprise me. In Sweden there have been problems between Somalis in Malmo and the Jewish community there.
Painful as it may be, quite a lot of - though by no means all - the rise in anti -Semitism in recent years is linked with some Muslim communities.
6 Scottish Labour MPs have decided to retire so far:
Gordon Brown (Kirkcaldy) Alistair Darling (Edinburgh SW) Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) Frank Doran (Aberdeen N) David Hamilton (Midlothian) Anne McGuire (Stirling)
People like Dair would, if they had the chance, line up the royals and have them shot. It would indeed be a grim world if the Greens ever obtained power.
Actually I'm a Technocratic Libertarian so couldn't be much further from the Greens in terms of political philosophy.
No, you are a nailed-on lunatic.
So closer to the Greens than you think.
If you view things from a tabula rasa, the lunatic appears to be anyone who could even think about supporting the principle of monarchy.
Imagine forming a new countries constitution, the debate comes down to selection of a Head of State and how best to elect them. Somoene pipes up "how about we get the most charismatic psychopaths we can find, let them battle it out and whoever wins is head of state, and when they did their eldest son gets it, even if he's incapable, incompetent or mentally imbalanced."
Who sounds like the lunatic again?
Isn't that, more or less, what they did in Spain - where the monarchy had been abolished?
And whatever his other failings, Juan Carlos will always be remembered for siding with the politicians and not the army when that little colonel attempted a coup.
breaking: UKIP MEP suspended over "extremely serious" financial and business issues...
@PaulBrandITV: UKIP had told Amjad Bashir not to associate with Mujeeb Bhutto, who was pushed out of party for being the head of a Pakistani kidnap gang.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
I was interested to see the post about the Thanet South hustings (Isam, MikeK, Paul Mids Beds?). Farage is clearly a brilliant orator. As were both Adolf and Benito of course. He is dangerous. For this reason everyone who intends to win power would be wise to avoid debates and hustings with him and to focus, instead, on UKIP policies.
Lest this raises an accusation of cowardice, let's be clear that the brilliance of an orator does not equate to the substance beneath. A lot of people are, euphemistically put, 'easily led' and, like the mellifluous tones of Saruman, will not necessarily see through the magician's sleight of hand.
And proposing to abolish the monarchy is one thing, a proposal to depose Queen Elizabeth II and dump her in a council house after over 60 years public service is another.
The vast majority of the population are happy with a reasonable pension and comfortable retirement. Of course they get that retirement for doing real work, not avoiding people other than to say "vewy nice" and waving a few times a year while flunkies paid for by the State do any actual work required.
Billions of pounds of the country's wealth seems quite excessive a golden handshake for a 10 hour week and millions per annum in Welfare payments.
"waving a few times a year". Okay.
Especially for some of them , waving dubious parts
In the last 48 hours (a) Louise Mensch has used the f word in relation to the Queen and David Cameron, and (b) Jerry Hayes has described Chris Grayling as a "sh*t".
Just so relieved we didn't draw. Europa last 32, League Cup SF and PL is quite enough.
Two Disney Cups for reserves and a battle for 5th?
Glory Glory!
Isam are you a Spurs supporter? If so I forgive you everything and declare you, without doubt, the finest poster on pb.
Actually there's one hell of a pot of gold at the end of the Europa marathon. Every club in Britain would give their eye teeth now to win the Europa. As a result it's 1000x more significant than the FA Cup. Which is very, very, sad really. I loved the days when the FA Cup meant something: always on a Saturday and pitted the giants against the minnows. Since the CL and the way the CL has enveloped top 4 finishers, I don't think the big clubs honestly now give a fiddlestick for the FA Cup.
Win the Europa and it's bingo.
Arsenal supporter actually.
I prefer the Champions League, hopefully I will never get to know how fabulous the Europa League is, although it would give some of the kids a run out I guess
@robindbrant: Statement from @ukip adds allegations 'are of a grave nature and we will be forwarding our evidence obtained so far to the police.' #ukip
@robindbrant: .@AmjadBashirMEP has been increasingly prominent fig in @ukip and is in the top tier as party's communities spokesman
People like Dair would, if they had the chance, line up the royals and have them shot. It would indeed be a grim world if the Greens ever obtained power.
Actually I'm a Technocratic Libertarian so couldn't be much further from the Greens in terms of political philosophy.
No, you are a nailed-on lunatic.
So closer to the Greens than you think.
If you view things from a tabula rasa, the lunatic appears to be anyone who could even think about supporting the principle of monarchy.
Imagine forming a new countries constitution, the debate comes down to selection of a Head of State and how best to elect them. Somoene pipes up "how about we get the most charismatic psychopaths we can find, let them battle it out and whoever wins is head of state, and when they did their eldest son gets it, even if he's incapable, incompetent or mentally imbalanced."
Who sounds like the lunatic again?
Isn't that, more or less, what they did in Spain - where the monarchy had been abolished?
And whatever his other failings, Juan Carlos will always be remembered for siding with the politicians and not the army when that little colonel attempted a coup.
Not really a tabula rasa in the case of Spain as both the state and the monarchy were extant. Franco never dissociated himself from the monarchy, if I remember what little I know about Spain. Wasn't Juan Carlos actually a minister for him?
There is an article in this week's Spectator about the surprising amount of support France's National Front is getting from gays and Jews; the latter did surprise me. In Sweden there have been problems between Somalis in Malmo and the Jewish community there.
Painful as it may be, quite a lot of - though by no means all - the rise in anti -Semitism in recent years is linked with some Muslim communities.
The folly of left wing politicians assuming all the factions who set up special interest groups agree with each other
@robindbrant: Statement from @ukip adds allegations 'are of a grave nature and we will be forwarding our evidence obtained so far to the police.' #ukip
@robindbrant: .@AmjadBashirMEP has been increasingly prominent fig in @ukip and is in the top tier as party's communities spokesman
I understand that @AmjadBashirMEP was preparing to defect to the Tories, claiming that only Cammo will give a referendum on the EU, and publishing this in a newspaper tomorrow. This from the 6 o'clock BBC News.
However even they thought that something stinks about this defection.
Just so relieved we didn't draw. Europa last 32, League Cup SF and PL is quite enough.
Two Disney Cups for reserves and a battle for 5th?
Glory Glory!
Isam are you a Spurs supporter? If so I forgive you everything and declare you, without doubt, the finest poster on pb.
Actually there's one hell of a pot of gold at the end of the Europa marathon. Every club in Britain would give their eye teeth now to win the Europa. As a result it's 1000x more significant than the FA Cup. Which is very, very, sad really. I loved the days when the FA Cup meant something: always on a Saturday and pitted the giants against the minnows. Since the CL and the way the CL has enveloped top 4 finishers, I don't think the big clubs honestly now give a fiddlestick for the FA Cup.
Win the Europa and it's bingo.
Arsenal supporter actually.
I prefer the Champions League, hopefully I will never get to know how fabulous the Europa League is, although it would give some of the kids a run out I guess
Er, I think you may have missed the point. The Europa is now a clearcut gateway to the CL. It's a long haul but we're in the last 32 so one of those 32 is 5 wins from automatic qualification to the Champions' League.
Do you know, I was about to say I bet you're an Arsenal supporter. It shows, but doubtless you would say the same back. But to reveal to you something about me, I made one of my biggest ever betting wins by backing your team. In fact I've done it twice and won big both times 'cos I try and bet with my head not my heart.
A data-savvy constituent says the Government is having another go at communications ionterception, with an amendment slipped in at the Lords Committee stage:
Just so relieved we didn't draw. Europa last 32, League Cup SF and PL is quite enough.
Two Disney Cups for reserves and a battle for 5th?
Glory Glory!
Isam are you a Spurs supporter? If so I forgive you everything and declare you, without doubt, the finest poster on pb.
Actually there's one hell of a pot of gold at the end of the Europa marathon. Every club in Britain would give their eye teeth now to win the Europa. As a result it's 1000x more significant than the FA Cup. Which is very, very, sad really. I loved the days when the FA Cup meant something: always on a Saturday and pitted the giants against the minnows. Since the CL and the way the CL has enveloped top 4 finishers, I don't think the big clubs honestly now give a fiddlestick for the FA Cup.
Win the Europa and it's bingo.
Arsenal supporter actually.
I prefer the Champions League, hopefully I will never get to know how fabulous the Europa League is, although it would give some of the kids a run out I guess
Er, I think you may have missed the point. The Europa is now a clearcut gateway to the CL. It's a long haul but we're in the last 32 so one of those 32 is 5 wins from automatic qualification to the Champions' League.
Do you know, I was about to say I bet you're an Arsenal supporter. It shows, but doubtless you would say the same back. But to reveal to you something about me, I made one of my biggest ever betting wins by backing your team. In fact I've done it twice and won big both times 'cos I try and bet with my head not my heart.
You have said that about a dozen times previously but well done all the same
Yes I was just speaking to a mate about Spurs fans when they got knocked out earlier
@robindbrant: Statement from @ukip adds allegations 'are of a grave nature and we will be forwarding our evidence obtained so far to the police.' #ukip
@robindbrant: .@AmjadBashirMEP has been increasingly prominent fig in @ukip and is in the top tier as party's communities spokesman
Obviously if this UKIP MEP defects to the Tories, then he is a patriotic Lion for seeing the light.
Would the Tories be wise for taking in someone even the Kippers think is "dodgy"?
The question is - do the Kippers think he is dodgy because he was going to defect or was he planning to defect because his dodginess had been discovered .
Good news: that Ebola nurse being treated in the Royal Free has made a full recovery.
Wonderful news. Absolutely brilliant because for a time we all feared the worst. And, to be honest, puts all this nonsense about MEP UKIP defectors into the shade.
Obviously if this UKIP MEP defects to the Tories, then he is a patriotic Lion for seeing the light.
Would the Tories be wise for taking in someone even the Kippers think is "dodgy"?
The question is - do the Kippers think he is dodgy because he was going to defect or was he planning to defect because his dodginess had been discovered .
Good question and one that should answered quickly by UKIP and the police.
One of the UK Independence Party’s most senior politicians has defected to the Conservatives in a major blow to Nigel Farage’s general election campaign.
Amjad Bashir, a Ukip MEP and the party’s leading Asian figure, told The Telegraph that Ukip had become a “party of ruthless self-interest” that was incapable of delivering a referendum on membership of the European Union.
In a damning broadside against his former colleagues, he described Ukip as “pretty amateur” and condemned its “ridiculous” lack of policies. He said the party was “delusional” about its chances of winning seats in May.
breaking: UKIP MEP suspended over "extremely serious" financial and business issues...
@PaulBrandITV: UKIP had told Amjad Bashir not to associate with Mujeeb Bhutto, who was pushed out of party for being the head of a Pakistani kidnap gang.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
I was interested to see the post about the Thanet South hustings (Isam, MikeK, Paul Mids Beds?). Farage is clearly a brilliant orator. As were both Adolf and Benito of course. He is dangerous. For this reason everyone who intends to win power would be wise to avoid debates and hustings with him and to focus, instead, on UKIP policies.
Lest this raises an accusation of cowardice, let's be clear that the brilliance of an orator does not equate to the substance beneath. A lot of people are, euphemistically put, 'easily led' and, like the mellifluous tones of Saruman, will not necessarily see through the magician's sleight of hand.
You have just described David Cameron almost perfectly.
In an article for The Telegraph, Mr Bashir says: “After almost three years as a party member, I realise that Ukip is more concerned with furthering its own interests as a political party than delivering for the British people. “I’ve seen Ukip both at home, and abroad, and I’m sorry to say they’re pretty amateur. In the European Parliament, some of their MEPs think it’s acceptable to shout and fool around.”
But a Conservative source described the move as a “desperate attempt” by Ukip to limit the damage of his defection. The allegations are “old” and have previously been dismissed by Mr Farage, a source said.
Not half as bad as it is for the blues if these allegations have legs.
Apparently he continued associating with Mujeeb ur Rehman Bhutto who was UKIP's former Commonwealth Spokesman. Who was also the leader of a Pakistani kidnapping gang.
Could Bashir have sensed he was going to be booted out and defected to the Tories before it became known to them?
But a Conservative source described the move as a “desperate attempt” by Ukip to limit the damage of his defection. The allegations are “old” and have previously been dismissed by Mr Farage, a source said.
Mail not even mentioning the defection. I think the Tories have managed to shoot themsevles squarely in the foot.
breaking: UKIP MEP suspended over "extremely serious" financial and business issues...
@PaulBrandITV: UKIP had told Amjad Bashir not to associate with Mujeeb Bhutto, who was pushed out of party for being the head of a Pakistani kidnap gang.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
I was interested to see the post about the Thanet South hustings (Isam, MikeK, Paul Mids Beds?). Farage is clearly a brilliant orator. As were both Adolf and Benito of course. He is dangerous. For this reason everyone who intends to win power would be wise to avoid debates and hustings with him and to focus, instead, on UKIP policies.
Lest this raises an accusation of cowardice, let's be clear that the brilliance of an orator does not equate to the substance beneath. A lot of people are, euphemistically put, 'easily led' and, like the mellifluous tones of Saruman, will not necessarily see through the magician's sleight of hand.
You have just described David Cameron almost perfectly.
One of the UK Independence Party’s most senior politicians has defected to the Conservatives in a major blow to Nigel Farage’s general election campaign.
Amjad Bashir, a Ukip MEP and the party’s leading Asian figure, told The Telegraph that Ukip had become a “party of ruthless self-interest” that was incapable of delivering a referendum on membership of the European Union.
In a damning broadside against his former colleagues, he described Ukip as “pretty amateur” and condemned its “ridiculous” lack of policies. He said the party was “delusional” about its chances of winning seats in May.
Could someone check my maths on the Snoopers' Charter, please.
60,000,000 people in the UK .... Let's assume 30,000,000 can be snooped on - that is, use social media, e-mails, telecommunications etc. Each one produces say 1,000 words a day - that's a total of 30 billion words daily.
Even if GCHQ are working full time with say 100 operatives, that's 300,000,000 words each. Obviously they use computers that recognise interesting phrases but ....
What are the chances of Joe Bloggs having his e-mail read? Slightly less than being struck by lightning. So what's the fuss? Is it the chance of it being a thin end of a wedge? But how could they interrogate 300,000,000 words daily to spot you? A little bit of arrogance, perhaps?
6 Scottish Labour MPs have decided to retire so far:
Gordon Brown (Kirkcaldy) Alistair Darling (Edinburgh SW) Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) Frank Doran (Aberdeen N) David Hamilton (Midlothian) Anne McGuire (Stirling)
One of the UK Independence Party’s most senior politicians has defected to the Conservatives in a major blow to Nigel Farage’s general election campaign.
Amjad Bashir, a Ukip MEP and the party’s leading Asian figure, told The Telegraph that Ukip had become a “party of ruthless self-interest” that was incapable of delivering a referendum on membership of the European Union.
In a damning broadside against his former colleagues, he described Ukip as “pretty amateur” and condemned its “ridiculous” lack of policies. He said the party was “delusional” about its chances of winning seats in May.
WTF is Amjad Bashir ?
We don't know yet, he could be a crook or just a Tory, we won't know until the police have a go at those "irregularities".
breaking: UKIP MEP suspended over "extremely serious" financial and business issues...
@PaulBrandITV: UKIP had told Amjad Bashir not to associate with Mujeeb Bhutto, who was pushed out of party for being the head of a Pakistani kidnap gang.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
I was interested to see the post about the Thanet South hustings (Isam, MikeK, Paul Mids Beds?). Farage is clearly a brilliant orator. As were both Adolf and Benito of course. He is dangerous. For this reason everyone who intends to win power would be wise to avoid debates and hustings with him and to focus, instead, on UKIP policies.
Lest this raises an accusation of cowardice, let's be clear that the brilliance of an orator does not equate to the substance beneath. A lot of people are, euphemistically put, 'easily led' and, like the mellifluous tones of Saruman, will not necessarily see through the magician's sleight of hand.
You have just described David Cameron almost perfectly.
Hardly. That's not your strongest retort, Richard. I like DC, evidently, and think he is a very very good speaker but I wouldn't really describe him as an orator. At least, certainly not in the ilk of Farage in terms of rabble rousing. That performance in the European parliament which a lot of kippers find brilliant is, I think, deeply, deeply, disturbing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vBqyG6qYXE
" Ukip MEP Amjad Bashir defects to Conservative Party
Exclusive: Ukip’s chief spokesman on communities describes the party as “pretty amateur” and condemns its “ridiculous” lack of policies......"
"David Cameron said he was “absolutely delighted” to welcome Mr Bashir into the Tory fold and urged voters who have supported Ukip to “come back” to the Conservatives at the general election."
There were some friendly comments here on the first part of my personal views a couple of weeks back, so in case anyone's interested, part 2 is now up: http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/
breaking: UKIP MEP suspended over "extremely serious" financial and business issues...
@PaulBrandITV: UKIP had told Amjad Bashir not to associate with Mujeeb Bhutto, who was pushed out of party for being the head of a Pakistani kidnap gang.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
I was interested to see the post about the Thanet South hustings (Isam, MikeK, Paul Mids Beds?). Farage is clearly a brilliant orator. As were both Adolf and Benito of course. He is dangerous. For this reason everyone who intends to win power would be wise to avoid debates and hustings with him and to focus, instead, on UKIP policies.
Lest this raises an accusation of cowardice, let's be clear that the brilliance of an orator does not equate to the substance beneath. A lot of people are, euphemistically put, 'easily led' and, like the mellifluous tones of Saruman, will not necessarily see through the magician's sleight of hand.
This post sounds like a UKIP stereotype of what Conservatives think:
- Rather than engaging in reasoned debate, just resorting to comparing Farage to Hitler - Thinking of the plebs as "easily led" idiots when they agree with other parties - Coming up with increasingly contrived logic to justify Cameron's lack of nerve in a slavishly partisan manner
@jim_reed: We've been interviewing Amjad Bashir this afternoon in Leeds. He met Cameron yesterday and his resignation was planned for this evening.
@bbcnickrobinson: Standby for BBC interview with Amjad Bashir who's defected MT @jim_reed: "He met Cameron y'day & his resignation was planned for this eve”
breaking: UKIP MEP suspended over "extremely serious" financial and business issues...
@PaulBrandITV: UKIP had told Amjad Bashir not to associate with Mujeeb Bhutto, who was pushed out of party for being the head of a Pakistani kidnap gang.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
I was interested to see the post about the Thanet South hustings (Isam, MikeK, Paul Mids Beds?). Farage is clearly a brilliant orator. As were both Adolf and Benito of course. He is dangerous. For this reason everyone who intends to win power would be wise to avoid debates and hustings with him and to focus, instead, on UKIP policies.
Lest this raises an accusation of cowardice, let's be clear that the brilliance of an orator does not equate to the substance beneath. A lot of people are, euphemistically put, 'easily led' and, like the mellifluous tones of Saruman, will not necessarily see through the magician's sleight of hand.
You have just described David Cameron almost perfectly.
Hardly. That's not your strongest retort, Richard. I like DC, evidently, and think he is a very very good speaker but I wouldn't really describe him as an orator. At least, certainly not in the ilk of Farage in terms of rabble rousing. That performance in the European parliament which a lot of kippers find brilliant is, I think, deeply, deeply, disturbing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vBqyG6qYXE
Deeply disturbing, in the same way it was deeply disturbing the day I went to the emperors grand procession and some little upstart in the crowd started shouting outrageous things about him to the effect he was prancing around in his birthday suit.
breaking: UKIP MEP suspended over "extremely serious" financial and business issues...
@PaulBrandITV: UKIP had told Amjad Bashir not to associate with Mujeeb Bhutto, who was pushed out of party for being the head of a Pakistani kidnap gang.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
I was interested to see the post about the Thanet South hustings (Isam, MikeK, Paul Mids Beds?). Farage is clearly a brilliant orator. As were both Adolf and Benito of course. He is dangerous. For this reason everyone who intends to win power would be wise to avoid debates and hustings with him and to focus, instead, on UKIP policies.
Lest this raises an accusation of cowardice, let's be clear that the brilliance of an orator does not equate to the substance beneath. A lot of people are, euphemistically put, 'easily led' and, like the mellifluous tones of Saruman, will not necessarily see through the magician's sleight of hand.
You have just described David Cameron almost perfectly.
Hardly. That's not your strongest retort, Richard. I like DC, evidently, and think he is a very very good speaker but I wouldn't really describe him as an orator. At least, certainly not in the ilk of Farage in terms of rabble rousing. That performance in the European parliament which a lot of kippers find brilliant is, I think, deeply, deeply, disturbing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vBqyG6qYXE
Yes, I imagine that after years of a political elite stifling debate and dissent about the received wisdom, it probably is deeply disturbing for someone that supports such views to have deal with compelling arguments about why they're so wrong-headed. If it keeps going those easily led oiks might expect their representatives to represent them!
Interesting individuals can defect when they were elected by a party list - no one ever voted for him; arguable that defections should mean you move down the list in this system.
@jim_reed: We've been interviewing Amjad Bashir this afternoon in Leeds. He met Cameron yesterday and his resignation was planned for this evening.
@bbcnickrobinson: Standby for BBC interview with Amjad Bashir who's defected MT @jim_reed: "He met Cameron y'day & his resignation was planned for this eve”
How would UKIP have found out prior to his defection being announced? Both Carswell and Reckless managed it and UKIP arn't rounded for their competence.
Will be interesting to see how this story develops.
Presumably this is the point where posters like TGOHF, TSE and TheWatcher, who accused Reckless of a lack of ethics for saying supportive things shortly before defecting, to say the same about Bashir.
By the way, I take this defection without the slightest interest. I don't like turncoats even if they come to us. Neither do I give a hoot for celebrity endorsements, of which there will doubtless be some in the run up to May 7th. It's all froth and bubble, flotsam and jetsam, from people who think they're important but who really, really, aren't. And, yes, Bashir that includes you.
The nearest football swap I can think of is Ashley Cole for William Gallas...
Of course the two defectors to Ukip both did the honouable thing and held by-elections. Another reason why FPTP is better than PR, though I remember that scumbag Shaun Woodward didn't call a by-election in Witney when he defected to the Labour Party. Can't imagine why he took that decision!
Interesting individuals can defect when they were elected by a party list - no one ever voted for him; arguable that defections should mean you move down the list in this system.
It is certainly what should have happened when Helmer defected to UKIP and Bill Newton Dunn to the Lib Dems. I don't like party lists - or any other form of PR - at all. But if you are going to elect people by that system then you should at least have consistent and logical rules that reflect the way people are elected.
I think you need to be careful. Many years ago, the Tories said something similar about a new, but up and coming, politician called Ken Livingstone. We expected to see an evil monster but he came across as charming. I was never a fan, and I never liked him (unlike many Londoners), but after the ludicrously hyperbolic insults, it was Tories who looked silly.
It's like a Tory claiming that Miliband is the Antichrist. He's not the Antichrist, he's a very silly ... etc
I think you need to be careful. Many years ago, the Tories said something similar about a new, but up and coming, politician called Ken Livingstone. We expected to see an evil monster but he came across as charming. I was never a fan, and I never liked him (unlike many Londoners), but after the ludicrously hyperbolic insults, it was Tories who looked silly.
It's like a Tory claiming that Miliband is the Antichrist. He's not the Antichrist, he's a very silly ... etc
Very true and very good remarks but you mistake me. I said earlier that I thought Farage was brilliant, and dangerous. I certainly don't underestimate him which is why I wouldn't want us to enter debate or hustings with him. He is a very gifted orator. So were the other two I cited.
No, UKIP's fatal weakness is not their leader but their policies and on that we must hammer, hammer, hammer home.
breaking: UKIP MEP suspended over "extremely serious" financial and business issues...
@PaulBrandITV: UKIP had told Amjad Bashir not to associate with Mujeeb Bhutto, who was pushed out of party for being the head of a Pakistani kidnap gang.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
I was interested to see the post about the Thanet South hustings (Isam, MikeK, Paul Mids Beds?). Farage is clearly a brilliant orator. As were both Adolf and Benito of course. He is dangerous. For this reason everyone who intends to win power would be wise to avoid debates and hustings with him and to focus, instead, on UKIP policies.
Lest this raises an accusation of cowardice, let's be clear that the brilliance of an orator does not equate to the substance beneath. A lot of people are, euphemistically put, 'easily led' and, like the mellifluous tones of Saruman, will not necessarily see through the magician's sleight of hand.
You have just described David Cameron almost perfectly.
Hardly. That's not your strongest retort, Richard. I like DC, evidently, and think he is a very very good speaker but I wouldn't really describe him as an orator. At least, certainly not in the ilk of Farage in terms of rabble rousing. That performance in the European parliament which a lot of kippers find brilliant is, I think, deeply, deeply, disturbing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vBqyG6qYXE
Of course you find them disturbing. You disagree with what he says and because you mistakenly believe you hold a middle of the road, reasonable view on things you find anything that challenges that to be disturbing. What you fail to realise is that what is really disturbing to many people is the fanatical party conformity and personality cult around DC that you and your ilk indulge in. To use your own Godwin-inducing analogy, that is the real inheritance of Hitler and and Mussolini.
Presumably this is the point where posters like TGOHF, TSE and TheWatcher, who accused Reckless of a lack of ethics for saying supportive things shortly before defecting, to say the same about Bashir.
Socrates - he's either a typical Kipper wrong un - or they sat on allegations- or they are smearing him - none of the 3 is great for Farage.
Presumably Bashir will resign his seat and run again for election? Or are defectors to the Tories simply less principled than those to UKIP?
Bashir has said that he will not give the voters a chance at a by-election and will not resign his seat. Thus showing the mettle of the man.
So he's a coward that lacks convictions and avoids a contest before the voters wherever possible? I can understand why Cameron wanted him. A man after his own heart.
Presumably Bashir will resign his seat and run again for election? Or are defectors to the Tories simply less principled than those to UKIP?
You really don't understand how list systems work do you?
If he quits, there's no election, the next person on the list becomes the MEP.
Which would be entirely appropriate, given that he got in based on a vote for the party, rather than a vote for him. If he had any decency, he would feel ashamed about continuing in office off the back of votes for UKIP, and run again as a Tory candidate in the next European elections.
Bit off of UKIP if they have smeared him just because he was going to defect... I hope that isn't the case.
He may have defected because he knew he was going to be found out I suppose
Either way it's his decision, he can do as he likes. I used to vote Labour, changed my mind and joined UKIP so cant really have a pop at anyone who has a change of heart
Presumably this is the point where posters like TGOHF, TSE and TheWatcher, who accused Reckless of a lack of ethics for saying supportive things shortly before defecting, to say the same about Bashir.
Socrates - he's either a typical Kipper wrong un - or they sat on allegations- or they are smearing him - none of the 3 is great for Farage.
Sounds fairly par for the course! Kipper MEPs and bigwigs have plenty of form in such matters.
I cannot say that I find their candidate vetting very competent.
Dosen't say an awful lot for the tories high profile all over the press defector vetting either does it.
Quoting this evenings online Telegraph again, who are in turn quoting Custard Dave: "David Cameron said he was “absolutely delighted” to welcome Mr Bashir into the Tory fold and urged voters who have supported Ukip to “come back” to the Conservatives at the general election."
Whatever the truth or otherwise of the allegations, if reports have been compiled that are in a fit state to send to Knacker as apparently claimed by UKIP, the internal party investigations must have been going on for a while.
In further comments after walking his dog, David Cameron said he was absolutely delighted that his dog had found a world war 2 hand grenade but expressed a little disappointment that the pin was missing so its collectors value wasn't quite as high as.....(bang)
Sporting Index spreads http://goo.gl/0sfA2E changes on yesterday Mid-points LAB 283+1 CON 280-2 LD 28.5+0.5 UKIP 8.5= SNP 32.5+0.5
Where on Earth are the other 3/4 UKIP seats going to come from ? Assuming they do win 4/5.
In Thurrock, if the Tory vote fell by 7.6%, Labour vote fell by 7% and UKIP vote went UP by 22%, Labour still wins narrowly. If the Labour and Tory vote did not fall equally, UKIP will need an even bigger swing.
Presumably Bashir will resign his seat and run again for election? Or are defectors to the Tories simply less principled than those to UKIP?
You really don't understand how list systems work do you?
If he quits, there's no election, the next person on the list becomes the MEP.
Except of course he won't quit. The Tories suffered badly from this in the past and I thought them very badly done by for it. The same will apply now with UKIP. If you are elected on a party list system then the seat should belong to the party not the individual. That it doesn't happen just goes to show how stupid the system is in the first place.
Presumably this is the point where posters like TGOHF, TSE and TheWatcher, who accused Reckless of a lack of ethics for saying supportive things shortly before defecting, to say the same about Bashir.
Socrates - he's either a typical Kipper wrong un - or they sat on allegations- or they are smearing him - none of the 3 is great for Farage.
So I presume he is now the Tories problem? The Tories can be accused of wanting to strip employees of their rights such as maternity pay, the minimum wage and holiday entitlement. These are all allegations leveled against UKIP thanks to him.
Presumably Bashir will resign his seat and run again for election? Or are defectors to the Tories simply less principled than those to UKIP?
You really don't understand how list systems work do you?
If he quits, there's no election, the next person on the list becomes the MEP.
Which would be entirely appropriate, given that he got in based on a vote for the party, rather than a vote for him. If he had any decency, he would feel ashamed about continuing in office off the back of votes for UKIP, and run again as a Tory candidate in the next European elections.
You mean like when Roger Helmer defected from the Tories to UKIP?
Presumably this is the point where posters like TGOHF, TSE and TheWatcher, who accused Reckless of a lack of ethics for saying supportive things shortly before defecting, to say the same about Bashir.
Socrates - he's either a typical Kipper wrong un - or they sat on allegations- or they are smearing him - none of the 3 is great for Farage.
Is Kipper heaven for some.
They get to bitch and moan about a Muslim :-)
I knew it was only a matter of time before you pulled that card. Pathetic.
Presumably Bashir will resign his seat and run again for election? Or are defectors to the Tories simply less principled than those to UKIP?
You really don't understand how list systems work do you?
If he quits, there's no election, the next person on the list becomes the MEP.
Which would be entirely appropriate, given that he got in based on a vote for the party, rather than a vote for him. If he had any decency, he would feel ashamed about continuing in office off the back of votes for UKIP, and run again as a Tory candidate in the next European elections.
You mean like when Roger Helmer defected from the Tories to UKIP?
Yes. Roger Helmer is a useless candidate and we'd be better off without him.
Presumably Bashir will resign his seat and run again for election? Or are defectors to the Tories simply less principled than those to UKIP?
You really don't understand how list systems work do you?
If he quits, there's no election, the next person on the list becomes the MEP.
Except of course he won't quit. The Tories suffered badly from this in the past and I thought them very badly done by for it. The same will apply now with UKIP. If you are elected on a party list system then the seat should belong to the party not the individual. That it doesn't happen just goes to show how stupid the system is in the first place.
I really, really, really hate the list system.
Puts far too much power with the parties, and you can't vote to get rid of a particular candidate that irks you.
Comments
Billions of pounds of the country's wealth seems quite excessive a golden handshake for a 10 hour week and millions per annum in Welfare payments.
Actually there's one hell of a pot of gold at the end of the Europa marathon. Every club in Britain would give their eye teeth now to win the Europa. As a result it's 1000x more significant than the FA Cup. Which is very, very, sad really. I loved the days when the FA Cup meant something: always on a Saturday and pitted the giants against the minnows. Since the CL and the way the CL has enveloped top 4 finishers, I don't think the big clubs honestly now give a fiddlestick for the FA Cup.
Win the Europa and it's bingo.
"Monarchy is fundamentally undemocratic - discuss"
Gordon Brown (Kirkcaldy)
Alistair Darling (Edinburgh SW)
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes)
Frank Doran (Aberdeen N)
David Hamilton (Midlothian)
Anne McGuire (Stirling)
7 if you include Eric Joyce in Falkirk.
Full of wrong 'uns - Another Kipper fails to serve a full term - chance in May for the electorate to send them a message.
Painful as it may be, quite a lot of - though by no means all - the rise in anti -Semitism in recent years is linked with some Muslim communities.
Sounds sinister..
And whatever his other failings, Juan Carlos will always be remembered for siding with the politicians and not the army when that little colonel attempted a coup.
Lest this raises an accusation of cowardice, let's be clear that the brilliance of an orator does not equate to the substance beneath. A lot of people are, euphemistically put, 'easily led' and, like the mellifluous tones of Saruman, will not necessarily see through the magician's sleight of hand.
http://metro.co.uk/2015/01/23/fk-her-furious-louise-mensch-attacks-the-queen-and-david-cameron-over-king-abdullah-tributes-5034280/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/incompetent-grayling-condemned-by-extory-mp-as-off-his-trolley-9999560.html
I prefer the Champions League, hopefully I will never get to know how fabulous the Europa League is, although it would give some of the kids a run out I guess
@robindbrant: .@AmjadBashirMEP has been increasingly prominent fig in @ukip and is in the top tier as party's communities spokesman
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/sarah-palin-seriously-interested-in-2016-bid-114548.html
https://twitter.com/jim_reed/status/559052362883407872
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9420662/how-marine-le-pen-is-winning-frances-gay-vote/
However even they thought that something stinks about this defection.
Do you know, I was about to say I bet you're an Arsenal supporter. It shows, but doubtless you would say the same back. But to reveal to you something about me, I made one of my biggest ever betting wins by backing your team. In fact I've done it twice and won big both times 'cos I try and bet with my head not my heart.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2014-2015/0075/amend/su075-I-rev-b.htm
I've not yet had a chance to study it - he thinks it's much the same as the previous efforts.
Yes I was just speaking to a mate about Spurs fans when they got knocked out earlier
"same sense of entitlement as Tories"
Good luck with the Europa League
I don't want a iffy kipper.
Reminds me of 'The kipper and the corpse.'
Sounds like either its a smear job or the Kippers were happy with him being dodgy as long as he was loyal.
Neither a good look for the purples.
I thought he was bad news when in UKIP and turns out he was.
One of the UK Independence Party’s most senior politicians has defected to the Conservatives in a major blow to Nigel Farage’s general election campaign.
Amjad Bashir, a Ukip MEP and the party’s leading Asian figure, told The Telegraph that Ukip had become a “party of ruthless self-interest” that was incapable of delivering a referendum on membership of the European Union.
In a damning broadside against his former colleagues, he described Ukip as “pretty amateur” and condemned its “ridiculous” lack of policies. He said the party was “delusional” about its chances of winning seats in May.
2015: Con 228 [ 297 ], Lab 285 [ 191 ] LD 18 [ 43 ] , Grn 1 [ 1 ], Speaker 1 [ 1 ].
Note : this is by UNS only. So no adjustments. Therefore, no UKIP. 2010 in brackets.
BTW, the swing from Con to Lab from GE2010 is a whopping 7.25%.
“I’ve seen Ukip both at home, and abroad, and I’m sorry to say they’re pretty amateur. In the European Parliament, some of their MEPs think it’s acceptable to shout and fool around.”
But a Conservative source described the move as a “desperate attempt” by Ukip to limit the damage of his defection. The allegations are “old” and have previously been dismissed by Mr Farage, a source said.
Could Bashir have sensed he was going to be booted out and defected to the Tories before it became known to them?
Its sample size was 774. All other Scotland only poll [ Survation, Panelbase, ICM, Yougov ] have sample sizes of over 1000.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2924759/UKIP-MEP-suspended-investigation-extremely-financial-employment-questions.html
"BREAKING NEWS: UKIP MEP suspended over investigation into 'extremely serious financial and employment questions'"
Er, using which poll exactly?!! Try it using the Ashcrofts.
"Financial irregularities" seem to be quite typical of MEP's, but what came first?
60,000,000 people in the UK .... Let's assume 30,000,000 can be snooped on - that is, use social media, e-mails, telecommunications etc. Each one produces say 1,000 words a day - that's a total of 30 billion words daily.
Even if GCHQ are working full time with say 100 operatives, that's 300,000,000 words each. Obviously they use computers that recognise interesting phrases but ....
What are the chances of Joe Bloggs having his e-mail read? Slightly less than being struck by lightning. So what's the fuss? Is it the chance of it being a thin end of a wedge? But how could they interrogate 300,000,000 words daily to spot you? A little bit of arrogance, perhaps?
I'm genuinely happy to be educated.
" Ukip MEP Amjad Bashir defects to Conservative Party
Exclusive: Ukip’s chief spokesman on communities describes the party as “pretty amateur” and condemns its “ridiculous” lack of policies......"
"David Cameron said he was “absolutely delighted” to welcome Mr Bashir into the Tory fold and urged voters who have supported Ukip to “come back” to the Conservatives at the general election."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11367754/Ukip-MEP-Amjad-Bashir-defects-to-Conservative-Party.html
Oh dear!
The nearest football swap I can think of is Ashley Cole for William Gallas...
- Rather than engaging in reasoned debate, just resorting to comparing Farage to Hitler
- Thinking of the plebs as "easily led" idiots when they agree with other parties
- Coming up with increasingly contrived logic to justify Cameron's lack of nerve in a slavishly partisan manner
I'm beginning to enjoy Carswell's defection very, very, much.
@bbcnickrobinson: Standby for BBC interview with Amjad Bashir who's defected MT @jim_reed: "He met Cameron y'day & his resignation was planned for this eve”
What do you know? He denied it could ever happen last month on the BBC
Make a happy home for Ajmad wont you? x
twitter.com/AmjadBashirMEP/status/554024903666831360
Will be interesting to see how this story develops.
By the way, I take this defection without the slightest interest. I don't like turncoats even if they come to us. Neither do I give a hoot for celebrity endorsements, of which there will doubtless be some in the run up to May 7th. It's all froth and bubble, flotsam and jetsam, from people who think they're important but who really, really, aren't. And, yes, Bashir that includes you.
Who knows the truth but the man's been played a la cantona kung fu kick...
I think you need to be careful. Many years ago, the Tories said something similar about a new, but up and coming, politician called Ken Livingstone. We expected to see an evil monster but he came across as charming. I was never a fan, and I never liked him (unlike many Londoners), but after the ludicrously hyperbolic insults, it was Tories who looked silly.
It's like a Tory claiming that Miliband is the Antichrist. He's not the Antichrist, he's a very silly ... etc
If he quits, there's no election, the next person on the list becomes the MEP.
This on the same day a UKIP MEP denounced as a crook defected to the Tories.
Which happened to be on the same day Cameron went to pay homage to the rulers of the most misogynist country in the world............
Is it any wonder that when the Tories should be streets ahead in the polls they just can't get voters to touch them with a barge poll?
No, UKIP's fatal weakness is not their leader but their policies and on that we must hammer, hammer, hammer home.
I cannot say that I find their candidate vetting very competent.
Selective selective selective Surbitooooon.
Diplomatic relations are between states, not governments...
He may have defected because he knew he was going to be found out I suppose
Either way it's his decision, he can do as he likes. I used to vote Labour, changed my mind and joined UKIP so cant really have a pop at anyone who has a change of heart
They get to bitch and moan about a Muslim :-)
Quoting this evenings online Telegraph again, who are in turn quoting Custard Dave: "David Cameron said he was “absolutely delighted” to welcome Mr Bashir into the Tory fold and urged voters who have supported Ukip to “come back” to the Conservatives at the general election."
Whatever the truth or otherwise of the allegations, if reports have been compiled that are in a fit state to send to Knacker as apparently claimed by UKIP, the internal party investigations must have been going on for a while.
In further comments after walking his dog, David Cameron said he was absolutely delighted that his dog had found a world war 2 hand grenade but expressed a little disappointment that the pin was missing so its collectors value wasn't quite as high as.....(bang)
In Thurrock, if the Tory vote fell by 7.6%, Labour vote fell by 7% and UKIP vote went UP by 22%, Labour still wins narrowly. If the Labour and Tory vote did not fall equally, UKIP will need an even bigger swing.
Puts far too much power with the parties, and you can't vote to get rid of a particular candidate that irks you.
More bad news coming for Ukip later. Stand by for the Sunday Times