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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The debates: The broadcaster up the ante and threaten to empty chair Cameron

“The party leaders will be formally invited to take part in these debates. In the event that any of the invited party leaders decline to participate, debates will take place with the party leaders who accept the invitation.”

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TheScreamingEagles

Blimey.

Pulpstar

Is think your (@TSE) avatar sums up what CCHQ must be thinking right now.

Dave has played his hand well, but he should be careful not to overplay it.

saddened

Not true mike, they have said they will empty chair anybody, no mention of Cameron.

RobD

TSE sniping the first, how unfair.

RobD

Pulpstar said:

Is think your (@TSE) avatar sums up what CCHQ must be thinking right now.

Dave has played his hand well, but he should be careful not to overplay it.

BTW, nice hammer.

Pulpstar

I reckon the head to head Dave vs Ed is the least likely debate to take place as the Lib Dems lawyer up.

Morris_Dancer

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

TheScreamingEagles

Ed chickening out is probably the best outcome for Lab

AlastairMeeks

All this fits with my view that they think that this is the format that is going to stack up to any legal challenge that might be expected. And that David Cameron will graciously or ungraciously accede - probably graciously.

Smarmeron

Completely off topic, but I was always a big fan of "Call My Bluff"

TOPPING

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

OldKingCole

Surely Sinn Fein shouldn't turn up on principle!

AlastairMeeks

The Lib Dems won't challenge the debate format. A bad debate format is better than no debates for the Lib Dems. The debates are one of the few possible game-changers that they have.

Sunil_Prasannan

Pulpstar said:

Is think your (@TSE) avatar sums up what CCHQ must be thinking right now.

Dave has played his hand well, but he should be careful not to overplay it.

What's your avatar, Pulpstar?

edmundintokyo

The broadcasters must be hoping Cameron still says no. Then somebody will start a rumour that he's going to show up at the last minute, and they can hype up an awesome, suspenseful build-up that the voters will find far more interesting than the actual debates.

Jonathan

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Sunil_Prasannan

FPT

@RobD re. Dark Knight

The guys doing the robbery are shown getting shot by each other/Bank Manager/run over by the bus

Pulpstar

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Pulpstar said:

Is think your (@TSE) avatar sums up what CCHQ must be thinking right now.

Dave has played his hand well, but he should be careful not to overplay it.

What's your avatar, Pulpstar?

https://www.facebook.com/Jinglebooboo?ref=ts&fref=ts

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Eagles, disagree. Miliband needs to change the perception he's a weird creature. The debates present such an opportunity.

Mr. Topping, on that narrow point, I disagree. Cameron doesn't want the debates. Lots to lose, and Miliband has much to gain (for all the talk of UKIP and the SNP, it's the blue-red contest that will determine the next PM). By reducing the debates to farce, Cameron enjoys the advantage. If they don't happen, his is the strategic victory.

bigjohnowls

TheScreamingEagles said:

Ed chickening out is probably the best outcome for Lab

Ed chickens out of nothing.

Leveson,Syria,Murdoch.

He is fearless (as well as Crap)

felix

saddened said:

Not true mike, they have said they will empty chair anybody, no mention of Cameron.

Quite.

Plato

I prefer Ask The Family. So fantastically sexist. Mother and Older Child.

Smarmeron said:

Completely off topic, but I was always a big fan of "Call My Bluff"

saddened

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Owls, not sure bandwagon-jumping is renowned as a heroic activity.

edmundintokyo

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

Sean_F

FPT Wumper, thanks for that useful and detailed analysis.

RobD

Sunil_Prasannan said:

FPT

@RobD re. Dark Knight

The guys doing the robbery are shown getting shot by each other/Bank Manager/run over by the bus

But do you actually see it? Maybe it was one of the other Nolan films!

saddened

bigjohnowls said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Ed chickening out is probably the best outcome for Lab

Ed chickens out of nothing.

Leveson,Syria,Murdoch.

He is fearless (as well as Crap)

Has he come out against mirror group newspapers yet? You know the ones who have massive hacking liabilities.

Stereotomy

This is a smart move on the part of the broadcasters. Making the empty chair threat clear before any of the parties got a chance to publicly say they were declining will see off claims that they're politically biased.

FrancisUrquhart

saddened said:

bigjohnowls said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Ed chickening out is probably the best outcome for Lab

Ed chickens out of nothing.

Leveson,Syria,Murdoch.

He is fearless (as well as Crap)

Has he come out against mirror group newspapers yet? You know the ones who have massive hacking liabilities.

Deafening silence from the usual media quarters about yesterdays news that Mirror probably at it worse than NOTW....I would have thought that would be big news, but only the Indy reported it and they have consistently seen past just NOTW and talked about wider media and wider world impact of hacking (and I mean proper hacking).

Didn't Ed's spin man used to work at the Mirror? Sure he knew nothing.

Eastwinger

Even more convinced that debates won't happen.

Sunil_Prasannan

RobD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

FPT

@RobD re. Dark Knight

The guys doing the robbery are shown getting shot by each other/Bank Manager/run over by the bus

But do you actually see it? Maybe it was one of the other Nolan films!

Yes you do see it!

Stereotomy

Eastwinger said:

Even more convinced that debates won't happen.

How many leaders would have to decline for that to happen?

OldKingCole

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

Cameron's problem is how he'll actually come across. Red faced, aggressive and tub-thumping is OK at PMQ's but might well not work in a TV studio.

FrankBooth

Three debates is too many. Two would be more than enough. There's far too little well, debate, about what we do if they don't happen. Will we have question time style audiences like in 2005? Half hour interviews with Paxman? Anyone remember Blair's masochism strategy. Something akin to what Clegg does each week on the radio? All these things would be troubled by the same legal restrictions as the debates of course.

FrancisUrquhart

OldKingCole said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

Cameron's problem is how he'll actually come across. Red faced, aggressive and tub-thumping is OK at PMQ's but might well not work in a TV studio.

Actually last time, in the first 2 debates, he did the opposite, and was criticized for not being aggressive / confrontational enough.

Pulpstar

OldKingCole said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

Cameron's problem is how he'll actually come across. Red faced, aggressive and tub-thumping is OK at PMQ's but might well not work in a TV studio.

Cameron can do statesmanlike, but he's better off in the bear pit of PMQs - he'll probably beat Ed "Just" and that will be a loss relative to expectations.

Pong

http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/en-gb/betting/e/7077183/.html

"Will Cameron Take Part In Multi Leader Debate With 4 Or More Leaders?"

Yes @ 1/2

edmundintokyo

OldKingCole said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

Cameron's problem is how he'll actually come across. Red faced, aggressive and tub-thumping is OK at PMQ's but might well not work in a TV studio.

PMQ's is a weird atmosphere but Cameron has no problem doing smooth when properly prepared and in his native TV studio environment.

Pong

Betfair Sportsbook

Will a General Election debate take place?

Yes @ 1.83

"Debate must consist of at least David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband. The debate must be broadcast on either BBC, ITV or Sky TV."

RobD

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RobD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

FPT

@RobD re. Dark Knight

The guys doing the robbery are shown getting shot by each other/Bank Manager/run over by the bus

But do you actually see it? Maybe it was one of the other Nolan films!

Yes you do see it!

Can't believe the internet lied to me.

OldKingCole

FrancisUrquhart said:

OldKingCole said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

Cameron's problem is how he'll actually come across. Red faced, aggressive and tub-thumping is OK at PMQ's but might well not work in a TV studio.

Actually last time, in the first 2 debates, he did the opposite, and was criticized for not being aggressive / confrontational enough.

Ah, but he was the challenger then. He's got to defend his record this time.

saddened

Still not seeing where Cameron is called out for empty chairing. Time to change the headline?

RightChuck

OldKingCole said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

Cameron's problem is how he'll actually come across. Red faced, aggressive and tub-thumping is OK at PMQ's but might well not work in a TV studio.

Didn't notice him being red-faced aggressive and tub-thumping in the 2010 debates.

TheWatcher

OldKingCole said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

Cameron's problem is how he'll actually come across.

Same as Miliband then. Weird, gurning face.

Assuming he's taking part of course, and isn't a big Chi...

edmundintokyo

saddened said:

Still not seeing where Cameron is called out for empty chairing. Time to change the headline?

This site is for people who follow politics, they'll understand what it means.

TOPPING

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Eagles, disagree. Miliband needs to change the perception he's a weird creature. The debates present such an opportunity.

Mr. Topping, on that narrow point, I disagree. Cameron doesn't want the debates. Lots to lose, and Miliband has much to gain (for all the talk of UKIP and the SNP, it's the blue-red contest that will determine the next PM). By reducing the debates to farce, Cameron enjoys the advantage. If they don't happen, his is the strategic victory.

he might not want them but the British public chuffing well wants them. I agree it is good for him but not for....dust in eye....democracy.

saddened

edmundintokyo said:

saddened said:

Still not seeing where Cameron is called out for empty chairing. Time to change the headline?

This site is for people who follow politics, they'll understand what it means.

Yes it means that all leaders are under threat from an empty chair, but mike prefers to highlight Cameron.

FrancisUrquhart

OldKingCole said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

OldKingCole said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

Cameron's problem is how he'll actually come across. Red faced, aggressive and tub-thumping is OK at PMQ's but might well not work in a TV studio.

Actually last time, in the first 2 debates, he did the opposite, and was criticized for not being aggressive / confrontational enough.

Ah, but he was the challenger then. He's got to defend his record this time.

I don't really see it will be much different. It will be claim and counter claim.

Tissue_Price

Pong said:

Betfair Sportsbook

Will a General Election debate take place?

Yes @ 1.83

"Debate must consist of at least David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband. The debate must be broadcast on either BBC, ITV or Sky TV."

Ta

TOPPING

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

As mentioned to @Morris_Dancer‌ I believe he has tactically played a blinder. For himself. And I suppose that was the aim.

But I think that he has caused mayhem and diminished the democratic process by politicking.

I would be interested to know the ideal line-up as determined by PB consensus, should such a think exist.

I think:
Cam, EdM, Nige, Nick.

Eastwinger

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Eagles, disagree. Miliband needs to change the perception he's a weird creature. The debates present such an opportunity.

Mr. Topping, on that narrow point, I disagree. Cameron doesn't want the debates. Lots to lose, and Miliband has much to gain (for all the talk of UKIP and the SNP, it's the blue-red contest that will determine the next PM). By reducing the debates to farce, Cameron enjoys the advantage. If they don't happen, his is the strategic victory.

he might not want them but the British public chuffing well wants them. I agree it is good for him but not for....dust in eye....democracy.

Do they?

I doubt anyone cares very much.

TheWatcher

saddened said:

edmundintokyo said:

saddened said:

Still not seeing where Cameron is called out for empty chairing. Time to change the headline?

This site is for people who follow politics, they'll understand what it means.

Yes it means that all leaders are under threat from an empty chair, but mike prefers to highlight Cameron.

The LibDems have gone all huffy over the inclusion of the other minor parties; it's just as likely to be Clegg throwing a hissy fit, and staying at home.

philiph

What we don't know (or at least I don't know) is the proposed order of the debates.

There is little chance of the 7 leader debates making radical changes to the VI situation, it will move a few loons on the edges. It won't create a Plaid / SNP surge in Surrey and Manchester. The Greens and UKIP will go +/- a few in various directions. LibDems won't see a surge comparable to 2010. Because of the sheer number of leaders on show neither Cameron or Millband will have enough exposure to make a massive positive move or fall too far.

The place for big movement is in the 1 to 1. If it is held first the effect can be countered over the rest of the campaign by the looser, if it is held last it has the potential to have a far greater effect on the election.

Sunil_Prasannan

TOPPING said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

As mentioned to @Morris_Dancer‌ I believe he has tactically played a blinder. For himself. And I suppose that was the aim.

But I think that he has caused mayhem and diminished the democratic process by politicking.

I would be interested to know the ideal line-up as determined by PB consensus, should such a think exist.

I think:
Cam, EdM, Nige, Nick.

And Natalie! (Greens within 1% of the LibDems in January's polls so far!)

AlastairMeeks

TOPPING said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

As mentioned to @Morris_Dancer‌ I believe he has tactically played a blinder. For himself. And I suppose that was the aim.

But I think that he has caused mayhem and diminished the democratic process by politicking.

I would be interested to know the ideal line-up as determined by PB consensus, should such a think exist.

I think:
Cam, EdM, Nige, Nick.

I don't see any ideal line-up. The current proposal is as good a practical suggestion as we're likely to get. But it is very generous to the Greens in particular, and to a lesser extent Plaid Cymru.

Alistair

Cameron now looks weak if he agrees. Threatened into it by the broadcasters. He needed to agree to the debates as soon as the Greens were in,

TOPPING

Eastwinger said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Eagles, disagree. Miliband needs to change the perception he's a weird creature. The debates present such an opportunity.

Mr. Topping, on that narrow point, I disagree. Cameron doesn't want the debates. Lots to lose, and Miliband has much to gain (for all the talk of UKIP and the SNP, it's the blue-red contest that will determine the next PM). By reducing the debates to farce, Cameron enjoys the advantage. If they don't happen, his is the strategic victory.

he might not want them but the British public chuffing well wants them. I agree it is good for him but not for....dust in eye....democracy.

Do they?

I doubt anyone cares very much.

They care.

theguardian.com/media/2010/apr/23/election-debate-tv-ratings

9.4m is surely CBB territory?

felix

edmundintokyo said:

saddened said:

Still not seeing where Cameron is called out for empty chairing. Time to change the headline?

This site is for people who follow politics, they'll understand what it means.

It means that Cameron has been singled out not by the broadcasters but by PB.com. Draw your own conclusions

Tissue_Price

TOPPING said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

As mentioned to @Morris_Dancer‌ I believe he has tactically played a blinder. For himself. And I suppose that was the aim.

But I think that he has caused mayhem and diminished the democratic process by politicking.

I would be interested to know the ideal line-up as determined by PB consensus, should such a think exist.

I think:
Cam, EdM, Nige, Nick.

As things stand, I would include the Greens. The irony being that things may not have stood like this had they been invited in the first place.

Personally I wouldn't include the nationalist parties but obviously (a) they should have a right of reply on the night of the debate and (b) there should be multi-way debates in Scotland, Wales & NI involving the principal parties there.

Perhaps we need some permanent criteria? Standing in 400 constituencies and polling above 5% (as per some averaging formula)? With the final lineup only being decided 1 week before the debate (so as to allow for late surges)?

philiph

TOPPING said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

As mentioned to @Morris_Dancer‌ I believe he has tactically played a blinder. For himself. And I suppose that was the aim.

But I think that he has caused mayhem and diminished the democratic process by politicking.

I would be interested to know the ideal line-up as determined by PB consensus, should such a think exist.

I think:
Cam, EdM, Nige, Nick.

I think Camerons first suggestion of

2 (Cam Mil) , 3 (+ Cleg) and 5 (+ Far and Ben) was as good as any.

You could argue 2, 4, 5. by giving the kippers 2 shots

OldKingCole

TheWatcher said:

saddened said:

edmundintokyo said:

saddened said:

Still not seeing where Cameron is called out for empty chairing. Time to change the headline?

This site is for people who follow politics, they'll understand what it means.

Yes it means that all leaders are under threat from an empty chair, but mike prefers to highlight Cameron.

The LibDems have gone all huffy over the inclusion of the other minor parties; it's just as likely to be Clegg throwing a hissy fit, and staying at home.

If anyone dare not be there, it's not Clegg. If you see what I mean.

AlastairMeeks

Alistair said:

Cameron now looks weak if he agrees. Threatened into it by the broadcasters. He needed to agree to the debates as soon as the Greens were in,

The only people who have noticed so far are political obsessives, nearly all of whom have decided who they will vote for at least two years ago (and in most cases three general elections ago).

philiph

Alistair said:

Cameron now looks weak if he agrees. Threatened into it by the broadcasters. He needed to agree to the debates as soon as the Greens were in,

Hard to do before the invitation is given?

Pulpstar

TOPPING said:

edmundintokyo said:

TOPPING said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Hmm. I still dislike the broadcasters trying to be the tail that wags the dog. There are questions over Northern Irish parties as well, and Clegg must be livid with the situation.

Cameron isn't the only leader with a decision to make.

Agree. re the broadcasters.

That said, I genuinely can't think what the best situation would be. Cam, EdM, Nick, Farage is probably it, which the broadcasters came up with.

Although it benefits him and the Cons, in the light of the farce that "the debates" is becoming, I believe Cam/Lynton misplayed this.

Cameron's team are doing fine. They've got the debates including three Labour competitors, and the only downside is incredibly minor damage for looking like they want to duck them, which everyone will have forgotten about in a week.

As mentioned to @Morris_Dancer‌ I believe he has tactically played a blinder. For himself. And I suppose that was the aim.

But I think that he has caused mayhem and diminished the democratic process by politicking.

I would be interested to know the ideal line-up as determined by PB consensus, should such a think exist.

I think:
Cam, EdM, Nige, Nick.

Cam, EdM, Nige, Nick, Bennett (Sky/C4)
Cam, EdM, Nick, Nicola (STV)
Cam, EdM, Nick, Wood (Wales)
Cam, EdM
Cam, EdM, Nige, Nick, Bennett,Nicola (BBC & ITV)

Perhaps

perdix

Alistair said:

Cameron now looks weak if he agrees. Threatened into it by the broadcasters. He needed to agree to the debates as soon as the Greens were in,

Nonsense.

Alistair

saddened said:

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Yes, he's said he will debate with whoever the TV companies decide to invite.

Pulpstar

antifrank said:

Alistair said:

Cameron now looks weak if he agrees. Threatened into it by the broadcasters. He needed to agree to the debates as soon as the Greens were in,

The only people who have noticed so far are political obsessives, nearly all of whom have decided who they will vote for at least two years ago (and in most cases three general elections ago).

Hey I'm still undecided ^_~

Sunil_Prasannan

RobD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RobD said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

FPT

@RobD re. Dark Knight

The guys doing the robbery are shown getting shot by each other/Bank Manager/run over by the bus

But do you actually see it? Maybe it was one of the other Nolan films!

Yes you do see it!

Can't believe the internet lied to me.

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

richardDodd

Well played by team Cameron....wrong footed them all.

Theuniondivvie

The Tories latest poster.

http://tinyurl.com/mumkkso

Pong

Alistair said:

Cameron now looks weak if he agrees. Threatened into it by the broadcasters. He needed to agree to the debates as soon as the Greens were in,

lol. Dave's got what he wanted - all he has to do now is say "yes"

FPTP will do the rest.

AlastairMeeks

Theuniondivvie said:

The Tories latest poster.

http://tinyurl.com/mumkkso

That is brutally effective from the Conservative viewpoint. I very much doubt that the SNP will be too upset by it either.

saddened

Alistair said:

saddened said:

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Yes, he's said he will debate with whoever the TV companies decide to invite.

Last I heard labour where preparing a response so you have a link to any official acceptance?

Socrates

If he accepts, I agree with others that Cameron has done well. He took a bold risk and has now got not just the Greens, but two further left wing parties included. Given that he realistically had no hopes of stopping the debates, this is as good a line-up as he could have hoped for.

If he ducks now, which I wouldn't put past him, he'll look truly ridiculous. The media have reported his insistence about including the Greens with more credulity than it deserved, but the public didn't buy it. If he comes up with another excuse, he'll get slaughtered.

taffys

The Tories latest poster.

Not for Scotland, though, surely!!

Tissue_Price

saddened said:

Alistair said:

saddened said:

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Yes, he's said he will debate with whoever the TV companies decide to invite.

Last I heard labour where preparing a response so you have a link to any official acceptance?

Per Guido:

Tory statement:

“These new proposals are being considered as part of the ongoing discussions about the debates.”

And Labour:

“We will debate anyone the broadcasters choose to invite and we are pleased to see the clear proposal to have three debates all in the general election campaign. The broadcasters have obviously made a very significant move to adopt wholesale the Prime Minister’s proposals and it surely now not possible for him to maintain his opposition to participating in these debates. We relish the opportunity for Ed Miliband to take on David Cameron directly in a head to head debate.”

Theuniondivvie

antifrank said:

Theuniondivvie said:

The Tories latest poster.

http://tinyurl.com/mumkkso

That is brutally effective from the Conservative viewpoint. I very much doubt that the SNP will be too upset by it either.

Quite.
Not sure if it will fill any authentic Unionists with joy though.

Pong

The losers in this are the Lib Dems & Farage. Oh and Ed probably isn't too happy about the exposure given to the left wing alternatives.

The massive winners are Plaid. Lucky buggers.

Tissue_Price

Socrates said:

If he ducks now, which I wouldn't put past him, he'll look truly ridiculous. The media have reported his insistence about including the Greens with more credulity than it deserved, but the public didn't buy it. If he comes up with another excuse, he'll get slaughtered.

All the polling evidence is that the public did buy it. I agree he has to sign up to this proposal.

Socrates

Tissue_Price said:

saddened said:

Alistair said:

saddened said:

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Yes, he's said he will debate with whoever the TV companies decide to invite.

Last I heard labour where preparing a response so you have a link to any official acceptance?

Per Guido:

Tory statement:

“These new proposals are being considered as part of the ongoing discussions about the debates.”

And Labour:

“We will debate anyone the broadcasters choose to invite and we are pleased to see the clear proposal to have three debates all in the general election campaign. The broadcasters have obviously made a very significant move to adopt wholesale the Prime Minister’s proposals and it surely now not possible for him to maintain his opposition to participating in these debates. We relish the opportunity for Ed Miliband to take on David Cameron directly in a head to head debate.”

Cameron would turn a tactical victory into a massive strategic defeat if he now runs scared again. You'll have five leaders that want to debate and one that doesn't - one who is making excuses for the second time in a row.

It'll be like the kid that says his computer crashed so he couldn't finish his homework and needs an extension. First time, you're sceptical but you give him the benefit of the doubt. When he then misses the extension because his printer supposedly broke down, everyone knows what's up.

saddened

Tissue_Price said:

saddened said:

Alistair said:

saddened said:

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Yes, he's said he will debate with whoever the TV companies decide to invite.

Last I heard labour where preparing a response so you have a link to any official acceptance?

Per Guido:

Tory statement:

“These new proposals are being considered as part of the ongoing discussions about the debates.”

And Labour:

“We will debate anyone the broadcasters choose to invite and we are pleased to see the clear proposal to have three debates all in the general election campaign. The broadcasters have obviously made a very significant move to adopt wholesale the Prime Minister’s proposals and it surely now not possible for him to maintain his opposition to participating in these debates. We relish the opportunity for Ed Miliband to take on David Cameron directly in a head to head debate.”

Thanks.

Sunil_Prasannan

Tissue_Price said:

saddened said:

Alistair said:

saddened said:

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Yes, he's said he will debate with whoever the TV companies decide to invite.

Last I heard labour where preparing a response so you have a link to any official acceptance?

Per Guido:

Tory statement:

“These new proposals are being considered as part of the ongoing discussions about the debates.”

And Labour:

“We will debate anyone the broadcasters choose to invite and we are pleased to see the clear proposal to have three debates all in the general election campaign. The broadcasters have obviously made a very significant move to adopt wholesale the Prime Minister’s proposals and it surely now not possible for him to maintain his opposition to participating in these debates. We relish the opportunity for Ed Miliband to take on David Cameron directly in a head to head debate.”

"We will debate WITH anyone the broadcasters choose to invite"

Socrates

Tissue_Price said:

Socrates said:

If he ducks now, which I wouldn't put past him, he'll look truly ridiculous. The media have reported his insistence about including the Greens with more credulity than it deserved, but the public didn't buy it. If he comes up with another excuse, he'll get slaughtered.

All the polling evidence is that the public did buy it. I agree he has to sign up to this proposal.

The majority thought he was trying to dodge the debates. How is that evidence they bought it?

Neil

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Tissue_Price said:

saddened said:

Alistair said:

saddened said:

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Yes, he's said he will debate with whoever the TV companies decide to invite.

Last I heard labour where preparing a response so you have a link to any official acceptance?

Per Guido:

Tory statement:

“These new proposals are being considered as part of the ongoing discussions about the debates.”

And Labour:

“We will debate anyone the broadcasters choose to invite and we are pleased to see the clear proposal to have three debates all in the general election campaign. The broadcasters have obviously made a very significant move to adopt wholesale the Prime Minister’s proposals and it surely now not possible for him to maintain his opposition to participating in these debates. We relish the opportunity for Ed Miliband to take on David Cameron directly in a head to head debate.”

"We will debate WITH anyone the broadcasters choose to invite"

So long as they are not pedants.

saddened

Socrates said:

Tissue_Price said:

saddened said:

Alistair said:

saddened said:

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Yes, he's said he will debate with whoever the TV companies decide to invite.

Last I heard labour where preparing a response so you have a link to any official acceptance?

Per Guido:

Tory statement:

“These new proposals are being considered as part of the ongoing discussions about the debates.”

And Labour:

“We will debate anyone the broadcasters choose to invite and we are pleased to see the clear proposal to have three debates all in the general election campaign. The broadcasters have obviously made a very significant move to adopt wholesale the Prime Minister’s proposals and it surely now not possible for him to maintain his opposition to participating in these debates. We relish the opportunity for Ed Miliband to take on David Cameron directly in a head to head debate.”

Cameron would turn a tactical victory into a massive strategic defeat if he now runs scared again. You'll have five leaders that want to debate and one that doesn't - one who is making excuses for the second time in a row.

It'll be like the kid that says his computer crashed so he couldn't finish his homework and needs an extension. First time, you're sceptical but you give him the benefit of the doubt. When he then misses the extension because his printer supposedly broke down, everyone knows what's up.

Agreed, he'd be stupid to turn down the debates now. He's got as much as he's going to get.

OldKingCole

antifrank said:

Theuniondivvie said:

The Tories latest poster.

http://tinyurl.com/mumkkso

That is brutally effective from the Conservative viewpoint. I very much doubt that the SNP will be too upset by it either.

How unpopular is Salmond in England? I would have thought he could be seen as a shrewd operator who might rein in some of Labour's wilder ideas.
And he has experience of being a very significant part of an effective government!

Tissue_Price

Socrates said:

Tissue_Price said:

Socrates said:

If he ducks now, which I wouldn't put past him, he'll look truly ridiculous. The media have reported his insistence about including the Greens with more credulity than it deserved, but the public didn't buy it. If he comes up with another excuse, he'll get slaughtered.

All the polling evidence is that the public did buy it. I agree he has to sign up to this proposal.

The majority thought he was trying to dodge the debates. How is that evidence they bought it?

The majority thought the Greens should be included. And now they have been. Cameron's magnanimity in agreeing to share the airtime more widely will be rewarded.

isam

The debates should all feature

Dave
Ed
Nick
Nige
Nic

For 30 mins then have 30 mins of Dave vs Ed

With three different topics

Sunil_Prasannan

Why has the Tory poster got Salmond instead of Sturgeon?

Roger

Antifrank

"That is brutally effective from the Conservative viewpoint. I very much doubt that the SNP will be too upset by it either. "

Only a Tory would find that effective in the same way a non Tory would find a mug shot of Cameron and 'Five More Years' (or any variation thereof) effective

Sunil_Prasannan

Neil said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Tissue_Price said:

saddened said:

Alistair said:

saddened said:

Jonathan said:

Good. Cameron needs to stop playing games and get on with it.

Has ed said he will turn up? I'm not sure he's agreed to the new format.

Yes, he's said he will debate with whoever the TV companies decide to invite.

Last I heard labour where preparing a response so you have a link to any official acceptance?

Per Guido:

Tory statement:

“These new proposals are being considered as part of the ongoing discussions about the debates.”

And Labour:

“We will debate anyone the broadcasters choose to invite and we are pleased to see the clear proposal to have three debates all in the general election campaign. The broadcasters have obviously made a very significant move to adopt wholesale the Prime Minister’s proposals and it surely now not possible for him to maintain his opposition to participating in these debates. We relish the opportunity for Ed Miliband to take on David Cameron directly in a head to head debate.”

"We will debate WITH anyone the broadcasters choose to invite"

So long as they are not pedants.

Dave: "I'll debate Ed Miliband!"
Moderator: "With whom, Prime Minister?"

Tissue_Price

Pong said:

The losers in this are the Lib Dems & Farage. Oh and Ed probably isn't too happy about the exposure given to the left wing alternatives.

The massive winners are Plaid. Lucky buggers.

Of course, this analysis starts from the premise of the initial debate proposal, in which Cameron was a massive loser. In net terms he still is, compared to no debates at all, but I don't think that was ever a massive runner, notwithstanding any legal impediment.

Theuniondivvie

OldKingCole said:

antifrank said:

Theuniondivvie said:

The Tories latest poster.

http://tinyurl.com/mumkkso

That is brutally effective from the Conservative viewpoint. I very much doubt that the SNP will be too upset by it either.

How unpopular is Salmond in England? I would have thought he could be seen as a shrewd operator who might rein in some of Labour's wilder ideas.
And he's the experience of being a very significant part of an effective government!

Very, according to Nick Cohen.

Nick Cohen @NickCohen4 · 36m 36 minutes ago
@chrisdeerin @alexmassie @montie People loathe Salmond here

OldKingCole

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Why has the Tory poster got Salmond instead of Sturgeon?

Photogenics?

Sunil_Prasannan

isam said:

The debates should all feature

Dave
Ed
Nick
Nige
Nic

For 30 mins then have 30 mins of Dave vs Ed

With three different topics

Don't you mean Nat instead of Nic?

Tissue_Price

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Why has the Tory poster got Salmond instead of Sturgeon?

Because Salmond is the leader-to-be of the Westminster SNP contingent? And because English people recognise Salmond.

AlastairMeeks

Roger said:

Antifrank

"That is brutally effective from the Conservative viewpoint. I very much doubt that the SNP will be too upset by it either. "

Only a Tory would find that effective in the same way a non Tory would find a mug shot of Cameron and 'Five More Years' (or any variation thereof) effective

It's a brutal personal attack on someone who is widely thought to be not up to the job. The Conservatives are going to make Ed Miliband's abysmal public image a centrepiece of their campaign. I expect this is just a warm-up.

To answer Old King Cole's point: I don't think Alex Salmond is particularly unpopular in England. But the idea is that Ed Miliband will be duped by a smarter operator.

Tissue_Price

antifrank said:

Roger said:

Antifrank

"That is brutally effective from the Conservative viewpoint. I very much doubt that the SNP will be too upset by it either. "

Only a Tory would find that effective in the same way a non Tory would find a mug shot of Cameron and 'Five More Years' (or any variation thereof) effective

It's a brutal personal attack on someone who is widely thought to be not up to the job. The Conservatives are going to make Ed Miliband's abysmal public image a centrepiece of their campaign. I expect this is just a warm-up.

To answer Old King Cole's point: I don't think Alex Salmond is particularly unpopular in England. But the idea is that Ed Miliband will be duped by a smarter operator.

It's a brutal personal attack masquerading as another political point. I expect several variations on this theme, rather than a simple poster of Ed with the word "USELESS".

taffys

Why has the Tory poster got Salmond instead of Sturgeon?

I wondered that. Nobody knows who the f8ck Sturgeon is?