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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TV debates plan B+1. Is Number 10 going to agree this time

SystemSystem Posts: 11,748
edited January 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TV debates plan B+1. Is Number 10 going to agree this time

Not long to go before the election campaign starts and this afternoon the broadcasters put forward a new proposal which, for the first time, bring in SNP/PC as well as the Greens.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    first?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    If Cameron doesn't show up to these he'll be making a huge error. I think he's got a decent deal out of his gambit.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    'France considering return to 'national indignity' law used on Nazi collaborators; strip Islamists of civic rights e.g to vote & get benefits'

    Completely off topic but interesting tweet nonetheless.

    They'd never get that past the ECHR though, surely.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    "We see such sessions take place in the early stages of the US presidential election primaries and have so many on the stage hardly makes for good TV"

    Are you kidding? It's brilliant TV. Much better than the Presidential debates.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Whilst the general view here seems to be that this is good for Cam, isn't there a real danger for him that 5 left wing parties to 2 right wing will skew the debate somewhat and he may not have much/any control over the direction of the debates?
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,342
    Key issue is timing and debate order.

    Cameron will not want the final debate only one week before the GE.

    Key question will be when is the head to head. If the head to head is last that's high risk for Cameron (and Miliband).

    If Cameron wants to minimise debate risk he must ensure the head to head isn't last. It could go in the middle but if anything I think he'll favour it going first.

    Broadcasters and other parties will argue head to head should go in middle. Minor parties will want their voice heard early - to get momentum - and at the end just before people vote.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    Neil said:

    "We see such sessions take place in the early stages of the US presidential election primaries and have so many on the stage hardly makes for good TV"

    Are you kidding? It's brilliant TV. Much better than the Presidential debates.

    Is there still time for the Greens to change leader back to Caroline though :P ?

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited January 2015
    It seems to me that David Cameron has got a pretty good deal on the debates here. I can also see how the broadcasters will feel less vulnerable to legal challenge on these. The only GB party with Parliamentary representation who won't get a chance is Respect, and while George Galloway is famously litigious, he'll struggle to persuade the courts that he's been hard done by in those critical UKIP/Respect marginals.

    I expect that the Conservatives will graciously accede to these formats. As Casino Royale said on the last thread, David Cameron's biggest danger in the debates now is overconfidence.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,342
    edited January 2015
    DaemonBarber said:

    Whilst the general view here seems to be that this is good for Cam, isn't there a real danger for him that 5 left wing parties to 2 right wing will skew the debate somewhat and he may not have much/any control over the direction of the debates?

    Yes, but there will be very little debate - it will just be endless short speeches.

    The upside for Cameron is that left-wing voters are going to hear a lot of things they like from people other than Miliband - so it increases the scope for the left-wing vote to fragment.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Number 10 should agree in principle asap. Timing remains important.

    Plaid Cymru probably can't believe their luck.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    "We see such sessions take place in the early stages of the US presidential election primaries and have so many on the stage hardly makes for good TV"

    Are you kidding? It's brilliant TV. Much better than the Presidential debates.

    Is there still time for the Greens to change leader back to Caroline though :P ?

    No. With two debates there is an argument for Natalie at one and a Scottish GP representative at the other though.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    This seems a reasonable proposal. Cam should do it. Ducking it will not look good now. Can't imagine Nick and Ed thrilled, though yet again the SNP come up smelling of roses.

    I rapidly thinking there will be loads of losers on May the 7th and one winner - the SNP (bit ironic if they end up being the only ones happy at the outcome of the election in a country they want to abolish)
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    FPT @MikeL

    Come on. It's not that the LibDems have been downgraded. It's that others have been up-graded!

    The upside is that the LDs should hold more seats the more fragmented the vote is, the wheels will finally fall off FPTP, and the newbies all get to say:-

    "I agree with Nick" [on PR at least]
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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    As the new proposal is for only 2 debates is it not, I think Cameron will go for it. He can watch the 3 harpies rip Milibland apart in the first debate and then finish the job himself in the second.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited January 2015
    antifrank said:

    It seems to me that David Cameron has got a pretty good deal on the debates here. I can also see how the broadcasters will feel less vulnerable to legal challenge on these. The only GB party with Parliamentary representation who won't get a chance is Respect, and while George Galloway is famously litigious, he'll struggle to persuade the courts that he's been hard done by in those critical UKIP/Respect marginals.

    I expect that the Conservatives will graciously accede to these formats. As Casino Royale said on the last thread, David Cameron's biggest danger in the debates now is overconfidence.

    He's got everything he asked for - save on the debate timing - but perhaps he can squeeze another concession for his final agreement.

    I think he'll go for it.

    Of course this was pretty much what certain people, who shall remain nameless, were predicting right from when OGH was fulminating with outrage

    edit: by the way, the speed of the Labour team's response shows their strategic ineptness. They rolled straight away - presumably trying to give some impression of being principled (on an issue no one cares about). Whereas they could have negotiated for a better position - e.g. excluding SNP/PC - as part of their acceptance.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,691
    edited January 2015
    I think despite Toenails basically writing, we [the media] have won, suck on it Cameron...I think Cameron wont be unhappy about 2 x 7 way debates, because nobody will win those..it will just be basically lots of short speeches and no real way it goes anywhere.

    The head to head though, well if Cameron wants to be PM again, if he can't beat up Ed, does he deserve to be PM?

    People will say its high risk, look what happened last time...what happened last time was Brown was useless as predicted, despite the Labour spin that he would exceed very low expectations (I bet that is what the Ed spin for this time is). The problem Cameron had was Clegg did extremely well as he was able to get in between the two and sound reasonable. That isn't on the table this time.

    If Cameron doesn't agree to these new proposals, he really is chicken.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,061
    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    "Whilst the general view here seems to be that this is good for Cam, isn't there a real danger for him that 5 left wing parties to 2 right wing will skew the debate somewhat and he may not have much/any control over the direction of the debates?"~

    While a risk, its also a massive opportunity.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    Who is the leader of Plaid Cymru btw ?
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,342
    RodCrosby said:

    FPT @MikeL

    Come on. It's not that the LibDems have been downgraded. It's that others have been up-graded!

    The upside is that the LDs should hold more seats the more fragmented the vote is, the wheels will finally fall off FPTP, and the newbies all get to say:-

    "I agree with Nick" [on PR at least]

    Yes, but under the original plan voters were being told the LDs were more important than all other parties (except Con and Lab).

    Under this plan, they are being told the LDs are now only equal to all other parties. So it is a clear downgrade of status.

    I take your point re vote fragmentation but isn't the issue that an awful lot of LD voters are likely to be tempted by the Greens?

    Overall it has to be a much worse format for the LDs.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Easterross said:

    As the new proposal is for only 2 debates is it not, I think Cameron will go for it. He can watch the 3 harpies rip Milibland apart in the first debate and then finish the job himself in the second.

    No it is for 3 .
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:

    Who is the leader of Plaid Cymru btw ?

    Tsk, Leanne Wood, how could you forget me tipping her to win at 5/1! ;)
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    Who is the leader of Plaid Cymru btw ?

    Leanne Wood AM. Hence "Wales Gets Wood" would be the equivalent of a Cleggasm.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,061
    Pulpstar said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
    Perhaps... I think this is spot on though.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/if-youre-going-to-have-seven-parties-in-the-tv-debates-youve-got-to-include-the-dup/
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,058
    There I was refreshing the old thread like a moron. We need much bigger new thread alerts, preferably with bells and whistles.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    You couldn't possibly add the DUP without adding Sinn Fein. The NI parties are not competing against the UK parties, so they should have a debate amongst themselves. SNP/PC are more awkward since they do compete against the UK parties where they stand.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited January 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    Who is the leader of Plaid Cymru btw ?

    In Parliament, Hywel Williams (Arfon)

    Bald as a coot guy...
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
    No political debate has ever been improved by the inclusion of the DUP or Sinn Féin.

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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,061
    Nick Robinson‏@bbcnickrobinson·5 mins5 minutes ago
    For avoidance of doubt -@DUPleader never in TV debates proposals. He's now demanding to know why as got more seats than Plaid, SNP & Greens
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
    Perhaps... I think this is spot on though.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/if-youre-going-to-have-seven-parties-in-the-tv-debates-youve-got-to-include-the-dup/
    None of the parties in the debate is standing in Northern Ireland. OK - the Greens might be, just have a DUP/SF/Alliance/Green debate in NI.

    Con, Lab, LD, UKIP are all standing in Wales and Scotland.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,058
    Pulpstar said:


    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
    Perhaps... I think this is spot on though.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/if-youre-going-to-have-seven-parties-in-the-tv-debates-youve-got-to-include-the-dup/
    None of the parties in the debate is standing in Northern Ireland. OK - the Greens might be, just have a DUP/SF/Alliance/Green debate in NI.

    Con, Lab, LD, UKIP are all standing in Wales and Scotland.
    Are the Blues not standing in NI? I thought they did in 2010 (although performed slightly below par!).
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,691
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Nick Robinson‏@bbcnickrobinson·5 mins5 minutes ago
    For avoidance of doubt -@DUPleader never in TV debates proposals. He's now demanding to know why as got more seats than Plaid, SNP & Greens

    At this rate, the Monster Raving Loony Party will be in the debates.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
    Perhaps... I think this is spot on though.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/if-youre-going-to-have-seven-parties-in-the-tv-debates-youve-got-to-include-the-dup/
    The criterion for being included seems to be based around fairness to major parties in their election battlegrounds. The DUP are not harmed by their exclusion, since the parties they are fighting against are also not in this debate (presumably there will be a local northern Irish debate). Plaid Cymru will be harmed if they are excluded and their local rivals are all included.

    The party that are lucky to be included are the Greens, who are not a major party in OFCOM's assessment in any area. But public opinion evidently feels differently, and David Cameron's backing of the Greens has made them the tariff for his admission.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,061
    Pulpstar said:


    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
    Perhaps... I think this is spot on though.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/if-youre-going-to-have-seven-parties-in-the-tv-debates-youve-got-to-include-the-dup/
    None of the parties in the debate is standing in Northern Ireland. OK - the Greens might be, just have a DUP/SF/Alliance/Green debate in NI.

    Con, Lab, LD, UKIP are all standing in Wales and Scotland.
    I believe you are wrong - the Conservatives stand there don't they?
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Yeah, let's have the DUP as well. It would help with making the pricing of electoral lean hog futures more transparent.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
    Perhaps... I think this is spot on though.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/if-youre-going-to-have-seven-parties-in-the-tv-debates-youve-got-to-include-the-dup/
    None of the parties in the debate is standing in Northern Ireland. OK - the Greens might be, just have a DUP/SF/Alliance/Green debate in NI.

    Con, Lab, LD, UKIP are all standing in Wales and Scotland.
    Are the Blues not standing in NI? I thought they did in 2010 (although performed slightly below par!).
    Joint candidates with the UUP. They managed to reduce the UUP to zero seats.
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    FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
    Perhaps... I think this is spot on though.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/if-youre-going-to-have-seven-parties-in-the-tv-debates-youve-got-to-include-the-dup/
    The Spectator is up its usual gum tree.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    I do wonder if we're suddenly going to see 18 CONSERVATIVE candidates pop up in Northern Ireland seats...
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    EastwingerEastwinger Posts: 351
    Debates look even more unlikely IMO.

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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Nick Robinson‏@bbcnickrobinson·5 mins5 minutes ago
    For avoidance of doubt -@DUPleader never in TV debates proposals. He's now demanding to know why as got more seats than Plaid, SNP & Greens

    At this rate, the Monster Raving Loony Party will be in the debates.
    John Looney must be regretting his crazy decision to defect...
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:

    I do wonder if we're suddenly going to see 18 CONSERVATIVE candidates pop up in Northern Ireland seats...

    I doubt it. They are a tiny organisation now they are separate from the UUP again. Cant find a record of any candidates being selected.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,058
    Neil said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Will need the DUP in as well. If 3's a crowd, what is 8?

    If you bring in the DUP, you need Sinn Fein in as well.
    Perhaps... I think this is spot on though.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/if-youre-going-to-have-seven-parties-in-the-tv-debates-youve-got-to-include-the-dup/
    None of the parties in the debate is standing in Northern Ireland. OK - the Greens might be, just have a DUP/SF/Alliance/Green debate in NI.

    Con, Lab, LD, UKIP are all standing in Wales and Scotland.
    Are the Blues not standing in NI? I thought they did in 2010 (although performed slightly below par!).
    Joint candidates with the UUP. They managed to reduce the UUP to zero seats.
    That's my definition of a slightly below par performance ;)
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    "We see such sessions take place in the early stages of the US presidential election primaries and have so many on the stage hardly makes for good TV"

    Are you kidding? It's brilliant TV. Much better than the Presidential debates.

    Is there still time for the Greens to change leader back to Caroline though :P ?
    I can easily see "Unfortunately Natalie Bennett has been taken seriously ill, and so we have Caroline Lucas standing in for her"
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    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,884
    That article on the DUP is correct, if Con + LD doesn't add up to 323, the DUP are almost certainly going to be the party that props them up. It's probably something in the region of 40% that DUP will be involved in the make up of the next government, yet they're excluded above a party that only has a chance in one seat.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    edited January 2015
    Artist said:

    That article on the DUP is correct, if Con + LD doesn't add up to 323, the DUP are almost certainly going to be the party that props them up. It's probably something in the region of 40% that DUP will be involved in the make up of the next government, yet they're excluded above a party that only has a chance in one seat.

    LD won't deal with DUP.

    And it must be way below 40%.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    The obvious thing to do with these debates is to have an all parties one, a major parties one, and a prime ministerial one. Oh well, these will do. Let's hope Cameron the Cowardly doesn't run away again!
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,211
    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    "We see such sessions take place in the early stages of the US presidential election primaries and have so many on the stage hardly makes for good TV"

    Are you kidding? It's brilliant TV. Much better than the Presidential debates.

    Is there still time for the Greens to change leader back to Caroline though :P ?
    I can easily see "Unfortunately Natalie Bennett has been taken seriously ill, and so we have Caroline Lucas standing in for her"
    No ...... homeopathy will prevent such an eventuality.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Artist said:

    That article on the DUP is correct, if Con + LD doesn't add up to 323, the DUP are almost certainly going to be the party that props them up. It's probably something in the region of 40% that DUP will be involved in the make up of the next government, yet they're excluded above a party that only has a chance in one seat.

    It's hard to see the DUP in coalition. The risks to NI are too great.

    The Shinners would then find themselves, by extension, in coalition with the British Government!

    The boyos who haven't gone away you know, would then have a very good reason to come back, you know...
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited January 2015
    Cameron statement on Brittan:

    “Leon Brittan was a dedicated and fiercely intelligent public servant. As a central figure in Margaret Thatcher’s government, he helped her transform our country for the better by giving distinguished service as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Home Secretary and Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. He went on to play a leading role at the European Commission where he did so much to promote free trade in Europe and across the world. More recently, he made an active contribution to the House of Lords. My thoughts are with Leon’s family and friends at this sad time.”

    Very, um, distant and factual. For some reason.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Artist said:

    It's probably something in the region of 40% that DUP will be involved in the make up of the next government

    I'll be generous and give you 4/1. You ok for £25?
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Socrates said:

    The obvious thing to do with these debates is to have an all parties one, a major parties one, and a prime ministerial one. Oh well, these will do. Let's hope Cameron the Cowardly doesn't run away again!

    I don't think there's anything obvious about these debates - except that they make more sense in a Presidential system than a Parliamentary one.

    Given the various quirks and foibles of the British political system it was always going to get messy trying to use an essentially Presidential format within our different democratic system.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    OldKingCole said:

    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    "We see such sessions take place in the early stages of the US presidential election primaries and have so many on the stage hardly makes for good TV"

    Are you kidding? It's brilliant TV. Much better than the Presidential debates.

    Is there still time for the Greens to change leader back to Caroline though :P ?
    I can easily see "Unfortunately Natalie Bennett has been taken seriously ill, and so we have Caroline Lucas standing in for her"
    No ...... homeopathy will prevent such an eventuality.
    I said "seriously ill" so she'll need some of those (insane) ear candles, too.
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Re: Greens Leftie female allergic to soap under hot studio lights....
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    FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    welshowl said:

    This seems a reasonable proposal. Cam should do it. Ducking it will not look good now. Can't imagine Nick and Ed thrilled, though yet again the SNP come up smelling of roses.

    I rapidly thinking there will be loads of losers on May the 7th and one winner - the SNP (bit ironic if they end up being the only ones happy at the outcome of the election in a country they want to abolish)

    The best way for an incumbent govt to win is to be ahead in the polls going into the election and its leader to avoid falling over in a fit during the campaign or be caught looking up womens' skirts. If they can turn Little Mo into Big Mo in the process then so much the better.

    I do not actually see how anybody can 'lose' in a 7-sided debate, which must be something that suits Cameron since he has the most to lose.

    It's pretty sad that we are talking so much about debates which are not actually going to be debates at all. Big mistake to start them in the first place.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    Re: Greens Leftie female allergic to soap under hot studio lights....

    You missed "hairy" and "flatulent" from that stereotype.
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    Steven_WhaleySteven_Whaley Posts: 313
    Seven participants is certainly not too many for a debate. It is, of course, probably several too many for an argument though. As I'd much rather see a debate than an argument I'm happy enough with the idea.
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited January 2015
    Given that it's a hard world out there, perhaps something like an all night poker session would do the trick. Or a chess contest? Invite Prince Charles too.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Anorak said:

    Cameron statement on Brittan:

    “Leon Brittan was a dedicated and fiercely intelligent public servant. As a central figure in Margaret Thatcher’s government, he helped her transform our country for the better by giving distinguished service as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Home Secretary and Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. He went on to play a leading role at the European Commission where he did so much to promote free trade in Europe and across the world. More recently, he made an active contribution to the House of Lords. My thoughts are with Leon’s family and friends at this sad time.”

    Very, um, distant and factual. For some reason.

    Adam Boulton has freely recited the allegations against Brittan this afternoon.
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    JohnDJohnD Posts: 1
    A lurker here commenting in reference to the legitimacy of any DUP participation:

    Some Conservative candidates have already been selected in NI seats.
    It should also be noted that the SDLP and Alliance are affiliated with Labour and the Lib Dems respectively.
    Also, I don’t think Sinn Fein would have to be included because they refuse to take up their seats at Westminster.
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Steven_Whaley said:

    Seven participants is certainly not too many for a debate. It is, of course, probably several too many for an argument though. As I'd much rather see a debate than an argument I'm happy enough with the idea.

    A proper debate requires back and forth. That's entirely why Cameron the Cowardly wanted to avoid one. His soundbites would get torn apart.

    But he's got what he wanted now. If he runs away again it'll look truly pathetic.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    RodCrosby said:

    Anorak said:

    Cameron statement on Brittan:

    “Leon Brittan was a dedicated and fiercely intelligent public servant. As a central figure in Margaret Thatcher’s government, he helped her transform our country for the better by giving distinguished service as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Home Secretary and Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. He went on to play a leading role at the European Commission where he did so much to promote free trade in Europe and across the world. More recently, he made an active contribution to the House of Lords. My thoughts are with Leon’s family and friends at this sad time.”

    Very, um, distant and factual. For some reason.

    Adam Boulton has freely recited the allegations against Brittan this afternoon.
    Liberating for the media when someone karks it, isn't it. Innuendo, rumour and smears are back in play! Hooray for ratings/sales!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    What noncense.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,863
    Socrates said:

    Steven_Whaley said:

    Seven participants is certainly not too many for a debate. It is, of course, probably several too many for an argument though. As I'd much rather see a debate than an argument I'm happy enough with the idea.

    A proper debate requires back and forth. That's entirely why Cameron the Cowardly wanted to avoid one. His soundbites would get torn apart.

    But he's got what he wanted now. If he runs away again it'll look truly pathetic.
    Oh, He'll find a way out. No doubt they are planning one as we speak.
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,061
    Amazing the different reaction on this thread compared to OGH's one on the big mistake Cammo had made in refusing the first debate approach.....

    That one was a keeper.
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    rottenborough said:

    Socrates said:

    Steven_Whaley said:

    Seven participants is certainly not too many for a debate. It is, of course, probably several too many for an argument though. As I'd much rather see a debate than an argument I'm happy enough with the idea.

    A proper debate requires back and forth. That's entirely why Cameron the Cowardly wanted to avoid one. His soundbites would get torn apart.

    But he's got what he wanted now. If he runs away again it'll look truly pathetic.
    Oh, He'll find a way out. No doubt they are planning one as we speak.
    What was Farage's excuse for running away from the UKIP Carnival in Croydon? Perhaps that one could be recycled.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Funny thing is I don't think being in the debate helps the SNP, however being out of the debates significantly harms them.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    TheWatcher said:

    rottenborough said:

    Socrates said:

    Steven_Whaley said:

    Seven participants is certainly not too many for a debate. It is, of course, probably several too many for an argument though. As I'd much rather see a debate than an argument I'm happy enough with the idea.

    A proper debate requires back and forth. That's entirely why Cameron the Cowardly wanted to avoid one. His soundbites would get torn apart.

    But he's got what he wanted now. If he runs away again it'll look truly pathetic.
    Oh, He'll find a way out. No doubt they are planning one as we speak.
    What was Farage's excuse for running away from the UKIP Carnival in Croydon? Perhaps that one could be recycled.
    Immigrants clogging up the Tube.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Anorak said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Anorak said:

    Cameron statement on Brittan:

    “Leon Brittan was a dedicated and fiercely intelligent public servant. As a central figure in Margaret Thatcher’s government, he helped her transform our country for the better by giving distinguished service as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Home Secretary and Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. He went on to play a leading role at the European Commission where he did so much to promote free trade in Europe and across the world. More recently, he made an active contribution to the House of Lords. My thoughts are with Leon’s family and friends at this sad time.”

    Very, um, distant and factual. For some reason.

    Adam Boulton has freely recited the allegations against Brittan this afternoon.
    Liberating for the media when someone karks it, isn't it. Innuendo, rumour and smears are back in play! Hooray for ratings/sales!
    It was all "an anti-semitic plot by MI5" apparently.

    Those pesky anti-semites again. They're everywhere, obviously...
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,061
    edited January 2015
    Next up - the staging struggles.

    Or not

    Lib Dems reject the new proposals.....

    James Chapman (Mail)‏@jameschappers·2 mins2 minutes ago
    .@LibDems reject broadcasters' proposals: 'As a party of government, we must be able to defend our record in all the TV debates' #GE2015
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,087
    RodCrosby said:

    Anorak said:

    Cameron statement on Brittan:

    “Leon Brittan was a dedicated and fiercely intelligent public servant. As a central figure in Margaret Thatcher’s government, he helped her transform our country for the better by giving distinguished service as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Home Secretary and Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. He went on to play a leading role at the European Commission where he did so much to promote free trade in Europe and across the world. More recently, he made an active contribution to the House of Lords. My thoughts are with Leon’s family and friends at this sad time.”

    Very, um, distant and factual. For some reason.

    Adam Boulton has freely recited the allegations against Brittan this afternoon.
    What allegations could there possibly be?

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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Predictably LD's now complaining:

    BuzzFeed UK Politics ‏@BuzzFeedUKPol 2m2 minutes ago

    Lib Dems demand to take part in all four TV debates: “as a party of government, we must be able to defend our record in all the TV debates"
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Alistair said:

    Funny thing is I don't think being in the debate helps the SNP, however being out of the debates significantly harms them.

    Might split Labour's vote in Scotland, lure some of the 2010 LD-to-Labour switchers away to pastures new. But broadly I agree: there's only one way to go from their current polling.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Tissue_Price said:

    Predictably LD's now complaining:

    BuzzFeed UK Politics ‏@BuzzFeedUKPol 2m2 minutes ago

    Lib Dems demand to take part in all four TV debates: “as a party of government, we must be able to defend our record in all the TV debates"

    Dave looks on, smiles, and pours himself another glass of Petrus.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,240
    Anorak said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Anorak said:

    Cameron statement on Brittan:

    “Leon Brittan was a dedicated and fiercely intelligent public servant. As a central figure in Margaret Thatcher’s government, he helped her transform our country for the better by giving distinguished service as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Home Secretary and Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. He went on to play a leading role at the European Commission where he did so much to promote free trade in Europe and across the world. More recently, he made an active contribution to the House of Lords. My thoughts are with Leon’s family and friends at this sad time.”

    Very, um, distant and factual. For some reason.

    Adam Boulton has freely recited the allegations against Brittan this afternoon.
    Liberating for the media when someone karks it, isn't it. Innuendo, rumour and smears are back in play! Hooray for ratings/sales!
    it allows them to finally pass on all those late night stories they've heard for years and never been able to repeat... I've heard enough stories about Mr Brittan from enough different sources that unless there is smoke without fire...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    7 7 4 4 perhaps.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited January 2015
    Put leaders of all parties in a house for 6 weeks.

    Each day snippets of the most interesting fights are shown on TV.

    At the end of each week, the public vote which leader they want out.

    Whoever is left after the 6 weeks gets to be PM.

    Might work?
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Is the suggestion for ONE Miliband-Cameron face-off held jointly by Sky and Channel 4, or two separate ones?
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,061
    Boris vs IS

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/london-mayor-election/11363421/Boris-Johnson-takes-the-fight-to-Islamic-State.html
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,440
    Clever move broadcasters. It is quite easy to create a reasonable explanation to include UKIP without the Greens, or UKIP and the Greens without the more regional focused parties, but they've gone for the all out approach (excepting the NI parties, which with inclusion of PC makes less sense, especially if one of them could play a role in coalition arrangements) and while I personally think that is too many, it'll be interesting to see how Cameron tries to back out again, and if he succeeds.
    Flightpath said:

    welshowl said:

    This seems a reasonable proposal. Cam should do it. Ducking it will not look good now. Can't imagine Nick and Ed thrilled, though yet again the SNP come up smelling of roses.

    I rapidly thinking there will be loads of losers on May the 7th and one winner - the SNP (bit ironic if they end up being the only ones happy at the outcome of the election in a country they want to abolish)

    Big mistake to start them in the first place.
    Maybe, but they should have thought about that before having them in the first place and making such a big deal out of it
    Socrates said:

    The obvious thing to do with these debates is to have an all parties one, a major parties one, and a prime ministerial one.

    Not my personal preference, but now that they've suggested one with all the major and minor GB parties (barring George of course), and not any incidental ones, rather than two free for alls, it seems sensible to follow the course you suggest.

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    EastwingerEastwinger Posts: 351
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Amazing the different reaction on this thread compared to OGH's one on the big mistake Cammo had made in refusing the first debate approach.....

    That one was a keeper.

    It was obvious that a four way was never a goer and empty chairing an idle threat. It would have suited Ed and Nigel down to the ground but a seven way has very little in it for either of them.

    What surprised me most was that so many people on this forum couldn't see that it was a win win for Cameron.

    All things considered the debates look even less likely to happen than before.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Next up - the staging struggles.

    Or not

    Lib Dems reject the new proposals.....

    James Chapman (Mail)‏@jameschappers·2 mins2 minutes ago
    .@LibDems reject broadcasters' proposals: 'As a party of government, we must be able to defend our record in all the TV debates' #GE2015

    But weren't they happy not to be in all the debates when it was a 5-3-2 proposal?

    Lib Dem in U-turn shocker!
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    RogerRoger Posts: 19,021
    Socrates

    "A proper debate requires back and forth. That's entirely why Cameron the Cowardly wanted to avoid one. His soundbites would get torn apart."

    Extraordinary decision by Cameron. The advantage he has in a two or three way debate is his standing as PM. With seven this advantage is lost. He just becomes one of a crowd.

    I'm surprised with his media background he wasn't savvy enough to see this worst of all outcomes happening.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,342
    edited January 2015
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Next up - the staging struggles.

    Or not

    Lib Dems reject the new proposals.....

    James Chapman (Mail)‏@jameschappers·2 mins2 minutes ago
    .@LibDems reject broadcasters' proposals: 'As a party of government, we must be able to defend our record in all the TV debates' #GE2015

    Exactly as I predicted an hour ago!

    The thing is - how can they object? They can't refuse to turn up to a debate they have not been invited to!
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,863
    Tissue_Price said:

    Predictably LD's now complaining:

    BuzzFeed UK Politics ‏@BuzzFeedUKPol 2m2 minutes ago

    Lib Dems demand to take part in all four TV debates: “as a party of government, we must be able to defend our record in all the TV debates"

    I'm not sure I can stop laughing enough to actually type a response to this one.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Charles said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Next up - the staging struggles.

    Or not

    Lib Dems reject the new proposals.....

    James Chapman (Mail)‏@jameschappers·2 mins2 minutes ago
    .@LibDems reject broadcasters' proposals: 'As a party of government, we must be able to defend our record in all the TV debates' #GE2015

    But weren't they happy not to be in all the debates when it was a 5-3-2 proposal?

    Lib Dem in U-turn shocker!
    If Cameron and Miliband now back the proposals (which remains to be seen) Clegg can screech all he wants...
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    hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    The leader of 'Keep Sun Page 3' also wants to take part in the debates.

    Shes got some front !
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited January 2015
    Charles said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Next up - the staging struggles.

    Or not

    Lib Dems reject the new proposals.....

    James Chapman (Mail)‏@jameschappers·2 mins2 minutes ago
    .@LibDems reject broadcasters' proposals: 'As a party of government, we must be able to defend our record in all the TV debates' #GE2015

    But weren't they happy not to be in all the debates when it was a 5-3-2 proposal?

    Lib Dem in U-turn shocker!
    In any case Nick Clegg has said he'll accept whatever the broadcasters propose. As has Ed Miliband. As has Nigel Farage.

    Like I said, Round 1 to Dave.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,342
    Danny565 said:

    Is the suggestion for ONE Miliband-Cameron face-off held jointly by Sky and Channel 4, or two separate ones?

    Just one.

    - Two seven person debates
    - One Cameron v Miliband
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Charles said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Next up - the staging struggles.

    Or not

    Lib Dems reject the new proposals.....

    James Chapman (Mail)‏@jameschappers·2 mins2 minutes ago
    .@LibDems reject broadcasters' proposals: 'As a party of government, we must be able to defend our record in all the TV debates' #GE2015

    But weren't they happy not to be in all the debates when it was a 5-3-2 proposal?

    Lib Dem in U-turn shocker!
    In any case Nick Clegg has said he'll accept whatever the broadcasters propose. As has Ed Milioband. As has Nigel Farage.

    Like I said, Round 1 to Dave.
    So Nick is accepting them, while the LibDems reject the proposals.

    Is there something we don't know?
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,061
    Roger said:

    Socrates

    "A proper debate requires back and forth. That's entirely why Cameron the Cowardly wanted to avoid one. His soundbites would get torn apart."

    Extraordinary decision by Cameron. The advantage he has in a two or three way debate is his standing as PM. With seven this advantage is lost. He just becomes one of a crowd.

    I'm surprised with his media background he wasn't savvy enough to see this worst of all outcomes happening.

    Does Roger exist or is this a sort of spoof labour luvvy profile?

    I favour the 10-1 format, that would do nicely for Dave.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    JohnD said:

    A lurker here commenting in reference to the legitimacy of any DUP participation:

    Some Conservative candidates have already been selected in NI seats.
    It should also be noted that the SDLP and Alliance are affiliated with Labour and the Lib Dems respectively.
    Also, I don’t think Sinn Fein would have to be included because they refuse to take up their seats at Westminster.

    It's about Major Parties vs Major Parties.

    The rule should be simple. All the Major Parties in a Constituent Country or None in a UK wide debate. This proposal meets that simple rule. No Major Party will be disadvantaged in seeing its Major Party opponents given hours of primetime and TV news coverage that it is denied.

    NI is sufficiently different that no Major Party there is in the debates, so no Major Party is being disadvantaged and the slight advantage minor parties get is effectively meaningless.
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    EastwingerEastwinger Posts: 351
    Roger said:

    Socrates

    "A proper debate requires back and forth. That's entirely why Cameron the Cowardly wanted to avoid one. His soundbites would get torn apart."

    Extraordinary decision by Cameron. The advantage he has in a two or three way debate is his standing as PM. With seven this advantage is lost. He just becomes one of a crowd.

    I'm surprised with his media background he wasn't savvy enough to see this worst of all outcomes happening.

    Far worse for Ed and Nigel. They are the ones who need to debate Cameron without all that background noise. Whats in it for Labour or UKIP.

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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,342
    Not sure whether posted already.

    Key info from Anthony Wells re Scottish Panelbase poll which showed SNP -4, Lab +4:

    "On top of that, when tables for the Panelbase poll appeared it turned out that the voting intention question wasn’t asked first, it was asked after a question about whether or not falling oil prices damaged the economic case for Scottish independence, so the SNP fall in that first poll may be a question ordering effect rather than a genuine change"
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    Steven_WhaleySteven_Whaley Posts: 313
    edited January 2015
    Socrates said:



    A proper debate requires back and forth. That's entirely why Cameron the Cowardly wanted to avoid one. His soundbites would get torn apart.

    But he's got what he wanted now. If he runs away again it'll look truly pathetic.

    He's got what a lot of people wanted - myself included. I hoped he'd achieve this result even if he didn't hope to do so himself. I agree that he can't run away from it now.

    As for the structure of the debate - I'm sure there will be plenty of back and forth but I hope it will be done in a civilized way. For starters I think the lecterns should go. I'd rather see them all sat around a big table. More inclusive and less confrontational.

    (Edited to change the word podiums to lecterns. I don't know why I wrote podiums.)
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,684
    Dave will agree to this, Greens, SNP and PC tearing lumps out of Labour's core support base among cosmopolitan voters, Scots and Welsh people.

    It would be a major coup for the PM to get the three leaders who Ed fears most into the first debate.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,440
    edited January 2015
    Roger said:


    Extraordinary decision by Cameron. The advantage he has in a two or three way debate is his standing as PM. With seven this advantage is lost. He just becomes one of a crowd.

    A crowd where all six of the other participants will be attacking him to various degrees, more than will be the case with Miliband. Who knows how Clegg will decide to play it but I imagine the Greens/SNP/PC/Labour will all compete to see who can criticize him the most, and Farage will seek any opportunity to tear strips off him as well. Undermining Miliband will be a goal of the others too no doubt, but one way to do that is to rough Cameron up worse than Miliband manages. Perhaps it will leech votes from impressed Labour voters, but it could equally see Cameron looking terrible - when so many shots will be made at him, some are bound to hit home.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,067
    What about Mike Hancock.

    SHOORLY he must be in the debates too.
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    What happens if the LibDems refuse to take part in the 7 UP challenge?
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    EastwingerEastwinger Posts: 351
    MaxPB said:

    Dave will agree to this, Greens, SNP and PC tearing lumps out of Labour's core support base among cosmopolitan voters, Scots and Welsh people.

    It would be a major coup for the PM to get the three leaders who Ed fears most into the first debate.

    So why would Ed agree?

This discussion has been closed.