Cameron is proving himself a weak leader by cynically using the Greens to avoid the scrutiny of the debates.The broadcasters are in favour and all the other political parties are too.The public support the Greens in this as it does look unfair,like the BBC's obsession with Farage rather than Lucas in programmes like QT.Right wing bias from the beeb continually. Cameron is totally isolated.He must be frit.
A few months back the argument being expounded was that UKIP shouldn't be in the debates due to not being classed as a major party by ofcom. Same people that were arguing that are now the ones arguing the greens should be in even though they are not classed as a major party by the same OFCOM they set so much store by before.
I can't see why anyone could possibly think they are pursuing a partisan agenda on this.
Anyone on PB think it's correct that the Greens be excluded from the debates? If so, on what basis?
If UKIP were averaging around 5% in the polls with 1 MP and v little hope of getting any more, while the Greens had 2 MPS, 15% in the polls, were favs in 5 seats/spread price of 7.5-9.5, and had won the last national election, I would hand on heart be saying the Greens had to be in the debates and UKIP should stop complaining
And the SNP are at about 3% (UK wide) but are favourites in somewhere from 10-40 seats depending on who is doing the talking.
The point is that the landscape is now very diverse and a long way from two party politics of yore, but that all of the Libs, UKIP, the Greens, and the SNP, have strengths and weaknesses that could reasonably exclude or include them. Fairness from where I'm sat says exclude them all ( bonkers in my view given the Libs are in Govt) or include the lot.
Well if there was one on Scottish TV then by all means get the SNP in place of UKIP I suppose
But I cant see an argument for including the Greens really, no offence to them
I think there was a Welsh ( and Scottish as far as I know) debate in 2010, and was a pointless damp squib. It's just not the main event and everyone knows it. Says it all I'm not even 100% sure it happened!
I think there's arguments of varying force for and against them all except the "big two". Hence some sort of 5/6 then maybe 3 then 2 makes a degree of sense, but I can see getting agreement is very tough.
A few months back the argument being expounded was that UKIP shouldn't be in the debates due to not being classed as a major party by ofcom. Same people that were arguing that are now the ones arguing the greens should be in even though they are not classed as a major party by the same OFCOM they set so much store by before.
I can't see why anyone could possibly think they are pursuing a partisan agenda on this.
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
The extent of the indignant kippers on here shows just how bad a position this is for Cameron to have set out ... in their eyes.
As for the reds and yellows their similar moral outrage just confirms this is the worst fate to befall Cammo since his resignation after Coulson's conviction.
Doubt it will make much difference either way to be honest.
Miliband, Farage and Clegg can huff and puff all they like but ultimately I don't think many people will care about this.
(I want to see TV debates personally)
if the other leaders agree to debate without Cameron the impact of that can be catastrophic for the Tories. He will either be forced to participate and get humiliated or refuse to participate and get humiliated.
I don't think the TV channels would dare...
As Cameron would boycott all the debates, one debate would be just Ed debating himself. TV gold!
Cameron is proving himself a weak leader by cynically using the Greens to avoid the scrutiny of the debates.The broadcasters are in favour and all the other political parties are too.The public support the Greens in this as it does look unfair,like the BBC's obsession with Farage rather than Lucas in programmes like QT.Right wing bias from the beeb continually. Cameron is totally isolated.He must be frit.
Yes. The fact that the BBC are reporting that Cameron is using the Greens as an excuse has really done him over. It's clearly just weakness on his part.
What a disappointment he has been as Prime Minister. I really supported his initial election as leader, but he's been a failure in so many ways. A failure on the EU. A failure on immigration. A failure on civil liberties. And now a failure in being a weak leader. If you're trying to avoid defending your own record in front of your opponents, then you do look pretty pathetic.
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
Faisal Islam @faisalislam 14m14 minutes ago One thing revealed tonight: four broadcasters and three of four parties are willing to sign up to existing debate plan. Conservatives say no
Faisal Islam @faisalislam 14m14 minutes ago One thing revealed tonight: four broadcasters and three of four parties are willing to sign up to existing debate plan. Conservatives say no
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
Mr. Carnyx, after Scottish Labour's comedy stylings this week perhaps you could say the same about the reds.
It's inconsistent to segregate yourself to one part of the UK and then demand a UK stage.
But that is what Labour and, above all, the Tories do. They don't stand in Northern Ireland, never mind have seats thee, and the Tories are almost extinct in Scotland as far as MPs go.
O/T I have just been VI'd by YouGov A lot of additional questions based on the events in Paris yesterday. Plus one on what the right threshold of IHT should be.
Doubt it will make much difference either way to be honest.
Miliband, Farage and Clegg can huff and puff all they like but ultimately I don't think many people will care about this.
(I want to see TV debates personally)
if the other leaders agree to debate without Cameron the impact of that can be catastrophic for the Tories. He will either be forced to participate and get humiliated or refuse to participate and get humiliated.
I don't think the TV channels would dare...
Quite right. Moreover the other three wouldn't do it without Cameron. Too much to lose from their respective perspectives:
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
Clegg. Outnumbered by two tyros who have the luxury of never having needed to make the difficult decisions of government.
Miliband. Dedicated his entire leadership to getting at the Tories and Dave. Would have b*gger all to say to the other two.
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
O/T I have just been VI'd by YouGov A lot of additional questions based on the events in Paris yesterday. Plus one on what the right threshold of IHT should be.
I hope you said £50. Think of we poor IFA's needing the work.
john l Jones UKIP @jlj21964 4m4 minutes ago How dare David Cameron attack Nigel Farage for telling the truth about multiculturalism - Breitbart http://bit.ly/1KptDC3 via @BreitbartNew
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
The SNP's likely exclusion from the national debates will likely result in them being one of the winners. Interestingly, I wonder how many English seats the SNP would need field candidates in before they would be considered a "major party"?
It's remarkable how un-Unionist the Unionists can be when it comes to trying to exclude their opponents on any excuse whatsoever.
Perhaps that is sometimes so, but in this particular instance, it seems perfectly reasonable, and I have no doubt the SNP have no real problem with it either. Complaining about it is as much as they would have wanted or needed out of this situation.
The SNP took the broadcasters to court the last time they were excluded. I'm not sure that anything has changed tto change that.
English law is not equivalent to Scots. Go knuckle-drag in your lickle parish and leave the grown-ups (English) alone ysmf!
I am aware of that small detail. However, another important small detail is that English law is not applicable over the whole of the UK, either. So that argument won't wash, unless you want to apply the Scottish Rising treatment.*
*1820s. When English law was imposed on Scotland to try and get at some political dissidents, as Scots law didn't allow for treason etc. So we saw laws of Edward III of England applied in a Scottish court, with the resulting shambles that one might expect (in both senses of the word).
Cameron's stance cannot be defended. It's a strategic blunder at the moment. It could become a catastrophic one if the debates go ahead without him, which they may well if he sticks to his line.
There's no way in the world the Greens will be invited for all sorts of reasons, which not having read the thread but knowing the PBC community, will no doubt have already have been rehearsed. So either he sticks to his self-spiked guns while everyone else points theirs at him, or he U-turns, or he gets lucky and the debates don't go ahead. But the other three have every incentive in the world to make sure they do if they believe Cameron won't turn up.
Jesus. Cameron is now climbing down on EU immigration, even relative to his last climb down:
It's telling that Cameron specifically numbered the policies, because there was a rather significant one he left out – blocking EU workers from coming to the UK unless they had a job offer.
Cameron is proving himself a weak leader by cynically using the Greens to avoid the scrutiny of the debates.The broadcasters are in favour and all the other political parties are too.The public support the Greens in this as it does look unfair,like the BBC's obsession with Farage rather than Lucas in programmes like QT.Right wing bias from the beeb continually. Cameron is totally isolated.He must be frit.
Yes. The fact that the BBC are reporting that Cameron is using the Greens as an excuse has really done him over. It's clearly just weakness on his part.
What a disappointment he has been as Prime Minister. I really supported his initial election as leader, but he's been a failure in so many ways. A failure on the EU. A failure on immigration. A failure on civil liberties. And now a failure in being a weak leader. If you're trying to avoid defending your own record in front of your opponents, then you do look pretty pathetic.
I first took interest in him in the Boris Johnson Spectator article in 2002, I backed his 'Change to Win' campaign before it had officially launched, I campaigned for him, I voted for him and I even argued round one Tory PPC - who was a friend of David Davis - to vote for him.
To be a little self-centred for a second, I feel entitled to feel let down and angry.
Anyone on PB think it's correct that the Greens be excluded from the debates? If so, on what basis?
If UKIP were averaging around 5% in the polls with 1 MP and v little hope of getting any more, while the Greens had 2 MPS, 15% in the polls, were favs in 5 seats/spread price of 7.5-9.5, and had won the last national election, I would hand on heart be saying the Greens had to be in the debates and UKIP should stop complaining
And the SNP are at about 3% (UK wide) but are favourites in somewhere from 10-40 seats depending on who is doing the talking.
The point is that the landscape is now very diverse and a long way from two party politics of yore, but that all of the Libs, UKIP, the Greens, and the SNP, have strengths and weaknesses that could reasonably exclude or include them. Fairness from where I'm sat says exclude them all ( bonkers in my view given the Libs are in Govt) or include the lot.
Well if there was one on Scottish TV then by all means get the SNP in place of UKIP I suppose
But I cant see an argument for including the Greens really, no offence to them
I think there was a Welsh ( and Scottish as far as I know) debate in 2010, and was a pointless damp squib. It's just not the main event and everyone knows it. Says it all I'm not even 100% sure it happened!
I think there's arguments of varying force for and against them all except the "big two". Hence some sort of 5/6 then maybe 3 then 2 makes a degree of sense, but I can see getting agreement is very tough.
I don't think a Scottish debate would be a damp squib this time. It would be as good if not better than the UK one
Cameron is proving himself a weak leader by cynically using the Greens to avoid the scrutiny of the debates.The broadcasters are in favour and all the other political parties are too.The public support the Greens in this as it does look unfair,like the BBC's obsession with Farage rather than Lucas in programmes like QT.Right wing bias from the beeb continually. Cameron is totally isolated.He must be frit.
Yes. The fact that the BBC are reporting that Cameron is using the Greens as an excuse has really done him over. It's clearly just weakness on his part.
What a disappointment he has been as Prime Minister. I really supported his initial election as leader, but he's been a failure in so many ways. A failure on the EU. A failure on immigration. A failure on civil liberties. And now a failure in being a weak leader. If you're trying to avoid defending your own record in front of your opponents, then you do look pretty pathetic.
Sob... If Cameron were to read that it would be like a dagger to his heart! (Of course, this has nothing to do with the expectation that your man Nige would have wiped the floor with Dave - now dashed.)
Jesus. Cameron is now climbing down on EU immigration, even relative to his last climb down:
It's telling that Cameron specifically numbered the policies, because there was a rather significant one he left out – blocking EU workers from coming to the UK unless they had a job offer.
Old Avery LP was doubting UKIP should get major status if polling less than 10%... Lord knows what he/she would make of the Greens on 5%.. I doubt he/she would hold fire
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
If Cameron doesn't appear there won't be a debate. The rest will just look silly with an empty chair. If Ed can't debate Cameron he will see no point in being savaged by Farage.
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
A little less conversation?
In terms of the debates " it's now or never " would seem apt.
Jesus. Cameron is now climbing down on EU immigration, even relative to his last climb down:
It's telling that Cameron specifically numbered the policies, because there was a rather significant one he left out – blocking EU workers from coming to the UK unless they had a job offer.
So we've got from a points system, to an emergency brake, to blocking just those without jobs, to not even that. Weak, weak, weak.
When considering your name for here and elsewhere, did you find Buster Bloodvessel had already been taken?
I guess this is why Cameron had to run from the debates with his tail between his legs. You Tories can't defend the record so have to change the subject to personal insults. What a sad decline for a once great party.
Jesus. Cameron is now climbing down on EU immigration, even relative to his last climb down:
It's telling that Cameron specifically numbered the policies, because there was a rather significant one he left out – blocking EU workers from coming to the UK unless they had a job offer.
So we've got from a points system, to an emergency brake, to blocking just those without jobs, to not even that. Weak, weak, weak.
When considering your name for here and elsewhere, did you find Buster Bloodvessel had already been taken?
I guess this is why Cameron had to run from the debates with his tail between his legs. You Tories can't defend the record so have to change the subject to personal insults. What a sad decline for a once great party.
not really. i was smiling in a cuddly way when I posted that... but the response sort of made my point!
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
I suspect Farage would relish the chance to debate without Cameron. He could continually remind the viewers that Cameron didn't dare show his face and suggest that if you don't like what Miliband and Clegg have to offer then the only party to vote for is Ukip.
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
If Cameron doesn't appear there won't be a debate. The rest will just look silly with an empty chair. If Ed can't debate Cameron he will see no point in being savaged by Farage.
Only one person would look stupid in that scenario
Take your blinkers off and read what fellow PB Tories like David Herdson think
Jesus. Cameron is now climbing down on EU immigration, even relative to his last climb down:
It's telling that Cameron specifically numbered the policies, because there was a rather significant one he left out – blocking EU workers from coming to the UK unless they had a job offer.
So we've got from a points system, to an emergency brake, to blocking just those without jobs, to not even that. Weak, weak, weak.
When considering your name for here and elsewhere, did you find Buster Bloodvessel had already been taken?
I guess this is why Cameron had to run from the debates with his tail between his legs. You Tories can't defend the record so have to change the subject to personal insults. What a sad decline for a once great party.
not really. i was smiling in a cuddly way when I posted that... but the response sort of made my point!
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
I think the empty chair treatment is the most proper in this occasion, let the other leaders have a debate, if the PM doesn't come have an empty chair in his place.
No, have an actor in the chicken suit, representing Cameron. He acts as the comic relief.
Last election, we had an actor in a chicken suit following Cameron around on campaign, acting as the comic relief.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
Will the Elvis impersonator be hanging out with Nige or Ed?
A little less conversation?
In terms of the debates " it's now or never " would seem apt.
As I'm sure others have noted, it is at least faintly amusing to have the Greens be in agreement with Cameron about something. They must be stunned rigid.
Jesus. Cameron is now climbing down on EU immigration, even relative to his last climb down:
It's telling that Cameron specifically numbered the policies, because there was a rather significant one he left out – blocking EU workers from coming to the UK unless they had a job offer.
So we've got from a points system, to an emergency brake, to blocking just those without jobs, to not even that. Weak, weak, weak.
When considering your name for here and elsewhere, did you find Buster Bloodvessel had already been taken?
I guess this is why Cameron had to run from the debates with his tail between his legs. You Tories can't defend the record so have to change the subject to personal insults. What a sad decline for a once great party.
not really. i was smiling in a cuddly way when I posted that... but the response sort of made my point!
If Cameron doesn't appear there won't be a debate. The rest will just look silly with an empty chair. If Ed can't debate Cameron he will see no point in being savaged by Farage.
Only one person would look stupid in that scenario
Take your blinkers off and read what fellow PB Tories like David Herdson think
No Big john, there is absolutely no upside for Ed if Cam doesn't want to play. Far more likely no debate than an empty chair.
Doubt it will make much difference either way to be honest.
Miliband, Farage and Clegg can huff and puff all they like but ultimately I don't think many people will care about this.
(I want to see TV debates personally)
if the other leaders agree to debate without Cameron the impact of that can be catastrophic for the Tories. He will either be forced to participate and get humiliated or refuse to participate and get humiliated.
I don't think the TV channels would dare...
Quite right. Moreover the other three wouldn't do it without Cameron. Too much to lose from their respective perspectives:
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
Clegg. Outnumbered by two tyros who have the luxury of never having needed to make the difficult decisions of government.
Miliband. Dedicated his entire leadership to getting at the Tories and Dave. Would have b*gger all to say to the other two.
The downside you suggest for Farage would not be a downside.. Clegg tried it and lost miserably.. you really think having Ed as back up is going to help?
1. It reminds people of the Vote Blue go Green. 2. Shows Dave sticks up for the little guys. 3.Demonstrates he is a man of principle. 4.Shows the people, he stands up against the main stream media. 5.The Public are saved an hour of their time , having to listen to Tom Bradby, Adam Boulton and a Dimbleby pretending how important TV debates are. 6.The public see less of the main politicians. 7. None of the public's favourite programmes , will have to be changed. 8.A spin room will no longer be required to tell us who won. 9 Dave can save a sun bed session before each debate. 10 Dave can not be accused that it is only white middle aged men allowed to debate.
If the Greens were to participate in the debates, they could create a new record: A party in the debates ended with zero seats. UKIP has a far better chance to return , at least, 1 MP.
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
I suspect Farage would relish the chance to debate without Cameron. He could continually remind the viewers that Cameron didn't dare show his face and suggest that if you don't like what Miliband and Clegg have to offer then the only party to vote for is Ukip.
You might be right! But that's even more reason for Clegg and Miliband to pull the plug too - it would be even more humiliating for them if they partook and it still turned into the Farage Show. (In those circumstances Dave would look a statesman of Olympian proportions whose profoundly good judgement made him steer clear of the circus.)
If the Greens were to participate in the debates, they could create a new record: A party in the debates ended with zero seats. UKIP has a far better chance to return , at least, 1 MP.
Ok-So the electorate of England are not to be bored by having to listen to the SNP who may nonetheless may have 30 plus MPs and may be the third largest party in the UK after GE 2015.
BUT those living in Scotland can be bored by UKIP which is declared NOT to be a major party in Scotland.
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
I suspect Farage would relish the chance to debate without Cameron. He could continually remind the viewers that Cameron didn't dare show his face and suggest that if you don't like what Miliband and Clegg have to offer then the only party to vote for is Ukip.
You might be right! But that's even more reason for Clegg and Miliband to pull the plug too - it would be even more humiliating for them if they partook and it still turned into the Farage Show. (In those circumstances Dave would look a statesman of Olympian proportions whose profoundly good judgement made him steer clear of the circus.)
1. It reminds people of the Vote Blue go Green. 2. Shows Dave sticks up for the little guys. 3.Demonstrates he is a man of principle. 4.Shows the people, he stands up against the main stream media. 5.The Public are saved an hour of their time , having to listen to Tom Bradby, Adam Boulton and a Dimbleby pretending how important TV debates are. 6.The public see less of the main politicians. 7. None of the public's favourite programmes , will have to be changed. 8.A spin room will no longer be required to tell us who won. 9 Dave can save a sun bed session before each debate. 10 Dave can not be accused that it is only white middle aged men allowed to debate.
Doubt it will make much difference either way to be honest.
Miliband, Farage and Clegg can huff and puff all they like but ultimately I don't think many people will care about this.
(I want to see TV debates personally)
if the other leaders agree to debate without Cameron the impact of that can be catastrophic for the Tories. He will either be forced to participate and get humiliated or refuse to participate and get humiliated.
I don't think the TV channels would dare...
Quite right. Moreover the other three wouldn't do it without Cameron. Too much to lose from their respective perspectives:
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
Clegg. Outnumbered by two tyros who have the luxury of never having needed to make the difficult decisions of government.
Miliband. Dedicated his entire leadership to getting at the Tories and Dave. Would have b*gger all to say to the other two.
The downside you suggest for Farage would not be a downside.. Clegg tried it and lost miserably.. you really think having Ed as back up is going to help?
Clegg would do better against Farage in a wide ranging debate , which was not just about Europe.
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
I suspect Farage would relish the chance to debate without Cameron. He could continually remind the viewers that Cameron didn't dare show his face and suggest that if you don't like what Miliband and Clegg have to offer then the only party to vote for is Ukip.
You might be right! But that's even more reason for Clegg and Miliband to pull the plug too - it would be even more humiliating for them if they partook and it still turned into the Farage Show. (In those circumstances Dave would look a statesman of Olympian proportions whose profoundly good judgement made him steer clear of the circus.)
True. I guess what this is going to come down to is a calculation by all sides about who will take the blame for the debates not happening and if that actually matters. I thought after last time that the genie was out of the bottle and that there was no going back, but now I'm not so sure.
The public might not care, but they don't set the news agenda. The media might get very angry and keep it in the news for some time and after a while the voters will make up their mind as to who they blame for the debates not happening.
Right now I think Cameron has made a mistake. I don't know why he felt the need to say anything about this subject at the present time.
Doubt it will make much difference either way to be honest.
Miliband, Farage and Clegg can huff and puff all they like but ultimately I don't think many people will care about this.
(I want to see TV debates personally)
if the other leaders agree to debate without Cameron the impact of that can be catastrophic for the Tories. He will either be forced to participate and get humiliated or refuse to participate and get humiliated.
I don't think the TV channels would dare...
Quite right. Moreover the other three wouldn't do it without Cameron. Too much to lose from their respective perspectives:
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
Clegg. Outnumbered by two tyros who have the luxury of never having needed to make the difficult decisions of government.
Miliband. Dedicated his entire leadership to getting at the Tories and Dave. Would have b*gger all to say to the other two.
The downside you suggest for Farage would not be a downside.. Clegg tried it and lost miserably.. you really think having Ed as back up is going to help?
I think we can all agree on the following:
Clegg and Miliband want Farage there because he will mainly hammer Cameron.
If Cameron's not there Farage will hammer them.
Cameron won't be there.
Clegg and Miliband won't want to be hammered by Farage.
Cameron is doing absolutely the right thing for absolutely the wrong reasons. Ofcom is doing absolutely the wrong thing for absolutely the right reasons.
The Greens do deserve to be there though or else it'll just be the Lab/Con/Kip party with a few side remarks from Clegg.
As I'm sure others have noted, it is at least faintly amusing to have the Greens be in agreement with Cameron about something. They must be stunned rigid.
Not at all - in my patch, the Tories and Greens are working closely together. The Tories want to encourage the Green vote for obvious reasons; the Greens get the benefit of the much larger Tory email reach, and they both bash Labour councillors and say nice things about each others' statesmanlike concern. It's entertaining to watch, in a House of Cards sort of way..
Cameron is doing absolutely the right thing for absolutely the wrong reasons. Ofcom is doing absolutely the wrong thing for absolutely the right reasons.
The Greens do deserve to be there though or else it'll just be the Lab/Con/Kip party with a few side remarks from Clegg.
Maybe Cameron should have said he wasn't taking part without giving a particular reason, because mentioning the Greens doesn't seem to have been well received.
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
I suspect Farage would relish the chance to debate without Cameron. He could continually remind the viewers that Cameron didn't dare show his face and suggest that if you don't like what Miliband and Clegg have to offer then the only party to vote for is Ukip.
I think it's true of all of them. Why would they bother to tear chunks out of each other when they could tear chunks out of all of their primary electoral enemy, who would be represented by an empty chair? Clegg's mainly fighting Tory facing seats, Ed needs those Tory marginals and despite his northern inroads Farage's best hopes are Tory seats. Yes, they'd knock each other about a bit but every answer would contain either a gag about the empty chair or be indignant at Dave's absence. Lots of "Ed/Nick/Nigel and I disagree on this profoundly, but at least we do agree that we have to have the debate and give you the choice."
Let's be clear on one thing. The leaders of all parties are only interested in one thing concerning the debates, and that is how appearing, or not, affects them. It's not about democracy, or principles, or doing the right thing. It's politics, pure and simple. Everything at the minute is all about jockeying for position and horse trading. It's not worth getting worked up about.
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
I suspect Farage would relish the chance to debate without Cameron. He could continually remind the viewers that Cameron didn't dare show his face and suggest that if you don't like what Miliband and Clegg have to offer then the only party to vote for is Ukip.
You might be right! But that's even more reason for Clegg and Miliband to pull the plug too - it would be even more humiliating for them if they partook and it still turned into the Farage Show. (In those circumstances Dave would look a statesman of Olympian proportions whose profoundly good judgement made him steer clear of the circus.)
True. I guess what this is going to come down to is a calculation by all sides about who will take the blame for the debates not happening and if that actually matters. I thought after last time that the genie was out of the bottle and that there was no going back, but now I'm not so sure.
The public might not care, but they don't set the news agenda. The media might get very angry and keep it in the news for some time and after a while the voters will make up their mind as to who they blame for the debates not happening.
Right now I think Cameron has made a mistake. I don't know why he felt the need to say anything about this subject at the present time.
Possibly because I think he's on record that the debates should be before the campaign proper as it drained life from it last time ( in his view ). Given this is his negotiating pitch to get the debate terms changed time is getting short, as in his view he wants the terms reset and the debates happening in about March/early April. Clearly Ofcom were the catalyst.
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
I suspect Farage would relish the chance to debate without Cameron. He could continually remind the viewers that Cameron didn't dare show his face and suggest that if you don't like what Miliband and Clegg have to offer then the only party to vote for is Ukip.
I think it's true of all of them. Why would they bother to tear chunks out of each other when they could tear chunks out of all of their primary electoral enemy, who would be represented by an empty chair? Clegg's mainly fighting Tory facing seats, Ed needs those Tory marginals and despite his northern inroads Farage's best hopes are Tory seats. Yes, they'd knock each other about a bit but every answer would contain either a gag about the empty chair or be indignant at Dave's absence. Lots of "Ed/Nick/Nigel and I disagree on this profoundly, but at least we do agree that we have to have the debate and give you the choice."
Well, if you're going to get Lib-Lab-Kip mercilessly ganging up on Dave anyway then far better that he's elsewhere and not having to face down the onslaught. Better to be a live coward than a dead hero.
Maybe Cameron should have said he wasn't taking part without giving a particular reason, because mentioning the Greens doesn't seem to have been well received.
It does, at least, give some extra publicity to the Greens and gives the general public the chance to mull over the unfairness (or fairness) of the situation. So that's a positive in my opinion.
Rochdale: Masud Mohammed. Batley & Spen: Aleksandar Lukic.
I'm on tenterhooks for the Islington South & Finsbury selection.
Not going to be me...
I was in Islington yesterday on a date.. not gonna get a 2nd one.. She said I talked too much. and incredibly I didn't mention politics once!
Perhaps you shouldn't have worn three flags. Islington girls find that a bit much.
Beautiful area, I must say. Must be lovely to live there
I don't really live in what most people would call Islington. I live in what now gets called Shoreditch, with a lapdancing club at either end of my street. It's not exactly picturesque, but it's incredibly convenient for work (no I'm not a lapdancer).
Rochdale: Masud Mohammed. Batley & Spen: Aleksandar Lukic.
I'm on tenterhooks for the Islington South & Finsbury selection.
Not going to be me...
I was in Islington yesterday on a date.. not gonna get a 2nd one.. She said I talked too much. and incredibly I didn't mention politics once!
Perhaps you shouldn't have worn three flags. Islington girls find that a bit much.
Beautiful area, I must say. Must be lovely to live there
I don't really live in what most people would call Islington. I live in what now gets called Shoreditch, with a lapdancing club at either end of my street. It's not exactly picturesque, but it's incredibly convenient for work (no I'm not a lapdancer).
Old Axe?
I was in Upper St, so yeah I guess proper Islington
And genuine question Nick - aren't the Greens closer to your political beliefs than Labour? What do Labour offer you that the Greens don't?
Labour has IMO more active interest in poverty and equality issues, which are pretty central for me. Also, in a FPTP system, I'm against splitting the left-of-centre vote.
On topic, it'd be a pity if the debates don't happen, but it's not up to the party leaders to decide - it's for OFCOM to propose a format, the leaders to decide whether to take part, and the TV companies to decide whether to broadcast them in the light of the decisions.
Thanks Nick. First part of answer is a good answer. Second part of answer suggests if the Greens were polling 30% in your constituency and Labour 5% you would jump to the Greens. Which is the level of loyalty to be expected from a Leftie politician. I myself detest political opportunism just to stay in power (cf 2 UKIP MPs).
Except of course Carswell was going to win in Clacton whether he stood for UKIP or the Tories so your accusation of opportunism is just sour grapes from a loser.
I always thought the Sylvester Stallone film where he manages to evade capture despite having thousands of men looking for him was a bit unrealistic, but — if events in France are anything to go by — maybe it's not so far fetched after all.
Except of course Carswell was going to win in Clacton whether he stood for UKIP or the Tories so your accusation of opportunism is just sour grapes from a loser.
In Tory world, candidates changing parties and exposing themselves to the public vote despite no requirement to do so are opportunists, while a leader stopping debates he is worried will hurt hum is an act of principle and courage.
I think we should give Emily Thornberry a little space just now - it's her father-in-law's funeral tomorrow. (The late Edward Nugee TD QC)
I had no idea that Edward Nugee had died. The man was an absolute legend: simply the cleverest man I have ever met in my entire life. This is very sad news and my thoughts are with his family.
Except of course Carswell was going to win in Clacton whether he stood for UKIP or the Tories so your accusation of opportunism is just sour grapes from a loser.
In Tory world, candidates changing parties and exposing themselves to the public vote despite no requirement to do so are opportunists, while a leader stopping debates he is worried will hurt hum is an act of principle and courage.
Since when has politics had anything to do with principle?
I think we should give Emily Thornberry a little space just now - it's her father-in-law's funeral tomorrow. (The late Edward Nugee TD QC)
I had no idea that Edward Nugee had died. The man was an absolute legend: simply the cleverest man I have ever met in my entire life. This is very sad news and my thoughts are with his family.
My cousin Ted. 4 high achieving sons, including a Major-General and a knight of the realm. A very lovely man and he will be missed.
Comments
Cameron is totally isolated.He must be frit.
I think there's arguments of varying force for and against them all except the "big two". Hence some sort of 5/6 then maybe 3 then 2 makes a degree of sense, but I can see getting agreement is very tough.
Not sure Cameron saw the funny side.
As for the reds and yellows their similar moral outrage just confirms this is the worst fate to befall Cammo since his resignation after Coulson's conviction.
Oh, hang on.
What a disappointment he has been as Prime Minister. I really supported his initial election as leader, but he's been a failure in so many ways. A failure on the EU. A failure on immigration. A failure on civil liberties. And now a failure in being a weak leader. If you're trying to avoid defending your own record in front of your opponents, then you do look pretty pathetic.
One thing revealed tonight: four broadcasters and three of four parties are willing to sign up to existing debate plan. Conservatives say no
A lot of additional questions based on the events in Paris yesterday.
Plus one on what the right threshold of IHT should be.
Farage. Outnumbered by two metropolitan liberals who'd ceaselessly pound him with the race card.
Clegg. Outnumbered by two tyros who have the luxury of never having needed to make the difficult decisions of government.
Miliband. Dedicated his entire leadership to getting at the Tories and Dave. Would have b*gger all to say to the other two.
Thank you.
How dare David Cameron attack Nigel Farage for telling the truth about multiculturalism - Breitbart http://bit.ly/1KptDC3 via @BreitbartNew
Truly the spead bet offers the road to financial glory for the surging kippers if money is put where mouth is.
*1820s. When English law was imposed on Scotland to try and get at some political dissidents, as Scots law didn't allow for treason etc. So we saw laws of Edward III of England applied in a Scottish court, with the resulting shambles that one might expect (in both senses of the word).
Cameron's stance cannot be defended. It's a strategic blunder at the moment. It could become a catastrophic one if the debates go ahead without him, which they may well if he sticks to his line.
There's no way in the world the Greens will be invited for all sorts of reasons, which not having read the thread but knowing the PBC community, will no doubt have already have been rehearsed. So either he sticks to his self-spiked guns while everyone else points theirs at him, or he U-turns, or he gets lucky and the debates don't go ahead. But the other three have every incentive in the world to make sure they do if they believe Cameron won't turn up.
It's telling that Cameron specifically numbered the policies, because there was a rather significant one he left out – blocking EU workers from coming to the UK unless they had a job offer.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2015/01/08/angela-merkel-is-saving-the-british-economy
So we've got from a points system, to an emergency brake, to blocking just those without jobs, to not even that. Weak, weak, weak.
To be a little self-centred for a second, I feel entitled to feel let down and angry.
Sturgeon/Miliband/Cameron/Clegg.. why not?
http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/337452/#Comment_337452
Whatever happened to him/her?
Nigel Farage calls PM a 'chicken running scared' after he rules out taking part in TV debates http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-01-08/david-cameron-rules-out-tv-debates-in-current-format/ …
UKIP Preston retweeted
The Sun @TheSunNewspaper 6h6 hours ago
Merkel snuffs out hope of UK regaining control of its borders: http://sunpl.us/6010avuu
David Herdson: May 2014.
Take your blinkers off and read what fellow PB Tories like David Herdson think
1. It reminds people of the Vote Blue go Green.
2. Shows Dave sticks up for the little guys.
3.Demonstrates he is a man of principle.
4.Shows the people, he stands up against the main stream media.
5.The Public are saved an hour of their time , having to listen to
Tom Bradby, Adam Boulton and a Dimbleby pretending how important TV debates are.
6.The public see less of the main politicians.
7. None of the public's favourite programmes , will have to be changed.
8.A spin room will no longer be required to tell us who won.
9 Dave can save a sun bed session before each debate.
10 Dave can not be accused that it is only white middle aged men allowed to debate.
Having said that, I expect Lucas to win.
You heard it hear first....
BUT those living in Scotland can be bored by UKIP which is declared NOT to be a major party in Scotland.
What a farce!
Rochdale: Masud Mohammed.
Batley & Spen: Aleksandar Lukic.
It's all rather reminiscent of Comical Ali. "There are no American tanks in Baghdad."
The public might not care, but they don't set the news agenda. The media might get very angry and keep it in the news for some time and after a while the voters will make up their mind as to who they blame for the debates not happening.
Right now I think Cameron has made a mistake. I don't know why he felt the need to say anything about this subject at the present time.
Clegg and Miliband want Farage there because he will mainly hammer Cameron.
If Cameron's not there Farage will hammer them.
Cameron won't be there.
Clegg and Miliband won't want to be hammered by Farage.
Let's call the whole thing off.
The Greens do deserve to be there though or else it'll just be the Lab/Con/Kip party with a few side remarks from Clegg.
I was in Islington yesterday on a date.. not gonna get a 2nd one.. She said I talked too much. and incredibly I didn't mention politics once!
Everything at the minute is all about jockeying for position and horse trading. It's not worth getting worked up about.
Is time up for the corrupt war criminal, Rajapaske?
#PresPollSL
Curse you PB kippers!!
I was in Upper St, so yeah I guess proper Islington