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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov’s UKIP share falls to lowest level since October – a

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  • Neil said:

    The Greens are on the verge of taking the lead in the crucial 18-24 age group: Lab 27, Con 26, Grn 24.

    Natalie Bennett to become Britain's second female, and second Australian, Prime Minister!

    More seriously, whatever YouGov are doing to give the Greens high scores in the polls, if it continues then they're only an outlier away from a double-figure score. Will we have ten Natalie Bennett's to adorn PB if such a day ever arrives?

    The public want to see fairness and the Greens in the TV debates too.It shows Cameron's weakness,lack of a spine,that he is too frightened to allow the debates to go ahead with Greens or no Greens.Cameron will reinforce his weakness again with Angela today.He is an Old Etonian fool and an embarrassment to the nation.
    All very convincing except for the fact that Cameron actually wants the Greens to be involved in the debates (for reasons that should be obvious).

    Greens in the debates would be like the Cleggasm all over again, and make it nailed on the Greens out poll the Lib Dems.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:

    Neil said:

    The Greens are on the verge of taking the lead in the crucial 18-24 age group: Lab 27, Con 26, Grn 24.

    Natalie Bennett to become Britain's second female, and second Australian, Prime Minister!

    More seriously, whatever YouGov are doing to give the Greens high scores in the polls, if it continues then they're only an outlier away from a double-figure score. Will we have ten Natalie Bennett's to adorn PB if such a day ever arrives?

    The public want to see fairness and the Greens in the TV debates too.It shows Cameron's weakness,lack of a spine,that he is too frightened to allow the debates to go ahead with Greens or no Greens.Cameron will reinforce his weakness again with Angela today.He is an Old Etonian fool and an embarrassment to the nation.
    All very convincing except for the fact that Cameron actually wants the Greens to be involved in the debates (for reasons that should be obvious).

    If Bennett is there then so is Farage though... !
    Farage is there anyway (under the current proposals). Getting Bennett in as well would be a win for Cameron. Funnily enough being excluded was no bad thing for the Greens. Membership across the UK is not far off 40,000 now and creeping up to the levels of UKIP (and not so far off the Lib Dems either).

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited January 2015
    RodCrosby said:

    breaking: 10 dead in shooting at satirical magazine HQ in France...

    "building stormed by gunmen"

    Their last tweet was anti-ISIS.

    10 dead, 5 injured, 2 gunmen with automatic weapons according to reports.

    http://www.24heures.ch/monde/europe/tirs-arme-lourde-charlie-hebdo/story/21745782

    It's not the first time they've been in the news.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15550350
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Cyclefree said:

    antifrank said:

    On the Mansion tax:

    1) If the idea takes hold that London is a cash cow for other areas' benefit, that could be damaging with some voters.

    I'm not expecting it to make any difference in practice (I expect Labour to do very well in London this year), but it's one to watch.

    The problem with Labour's mansion tax is different to what commentators have been saying. To my mind it's this. During the Blair/Brown years, Labour were mesmerised by the revenues from the City and thought they'd found the answer to Labour's problems: use those revenues to pay for the public sector and avoid the "tax'n'spend" charge.

    And the result of that Faustian pact was that the City was not effectively regulated and that it made Britain far too dependant on one source of wealth.

    Labour are making the same mistake again: they remain mesmerised by the idea that they can get revenues to pay for everything from bankers' bonuses or mansions. And the problems are that:-

    (a) it's not true;
    (b) it means they have a vested interest in high house prices and high bankers' bonuses - the same old Faustian pact - even though these are not good for the rest of us.

    It means that Labour never make a convincing case for why the public sector is needed and what needs to be spent on it and, crucial this, why this has to be paid for by all of us not just some rich bankers living in London mansions.

    < SNIP>

    I think Labour's loss of economic nerve - dating back to the 1992 election - and the "golden goose" fiction of the post-1997 City revenue years have allowed the Left in this country to avoid asking themselves some very hard questions about how to run an economy from a left of centre perspective, what the role of the state is and how to pay for it.

    And I see no evidence that anyone in Labour now is thinking about any of these points. The shallowness of the proposed mansion tax is, to my mind, evidence of that.
    I think that's basically right. Labour fundamentally believes in collectivism and redistribution. Ed Miliband more than most.

    They would almost certainly pledge to raise income tax and national insurance if they thought they could get away with it, politically. Something like: basic rate up to 22%, a new 10% band for low earners just above the threshold (perhaps 10.5k-16k salaries), lowering the threshold for top additional rate (45%) tax payers to £100k, freezing the 40% higher rate band, and raising the NI upper contribution from 2% to 3% would be "brave" core Labour choices. Without commenting on the negative economic effects that'd cause, of course.

    As things stand, they're forced to squeeze out extra revenue where they can through taxing populist targets, and attempting to compensate by maximising UK government borrowing instead.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/houseprices/11329536/House-prices-The-luxury-London-bubble-has-burst.html
    Stamp duty, mansion tax and global economics have led to a fall in the price of town houses and luxury apartments in the capital
    POEBWAS
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    isam said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Another one to strike off the Kipper gain list...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30708132

    "A former UKIP general election candidate who quit over offensive remarks made in a phone call will contest the seat as an independent.

    Kerry Smith is to announce he will run in the Essex seat of Basildon South and East Thurrock, the BBC has learned."

    Splitter.
    He will be the Party of the Independent Kingdom United ?
    An Independence from Europe?

    But Mr Smith must know the UKIP strategy for winning the seat, which should cheer up the Tories, as he splits the Purple vote.

    That said, on the down side, I've heard from a few sources Mr Smith is an appalling person, and should be a terrible candidate.
    I wonder if there is any chance Ukip wouldn't put up a candidate?
    Can't see that happening.
    What price would you make Independent winning the seat?
    No chance. I doubt if Kerry Smith would even get into four figures, against a UKIP candidate. And, UKIP will surely run against him.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Neil said:

    The Greens are on the verge of taking the lead in the crucial 18-24 age group: Lab 27, Con 26, Grn 24.

    Natalie Bennett to become Britain's second female, and second Australian, Prime Minister!

    More seriously, whatever YouGov are doing to give the Greens high scores in the polls, if it continues then they're only an outlier away from a double-figure score. Will we have ten Natalie Bennett's to adorn PB if such a day ever arrives?

    The public want to see fairness and the Greens in the TV debates too.It shows Cameron's weakness,lack of a spine,that he is too frightened to allow the debates to go ahead with Greens or no Greens.Cameron will reinforce his weakness again with Angela today.He is an Old Etonian fool and an embarrassment to the nation.
    All very convincing except for the fact that Cameron actually wants the Greens to be involved in the debates (for reasons that should be obvious).

    Greens in the debates would be like the Cleggasm all over again, and make it nailed on the Greens out poll the Lib Dems.
    I think the Lib Dems will finish on about 10% or so. There's no doubt, though, they're hit hardest by a big Green vote.

  • Having, as the name suggests, lived in Paris and on the edges of one of the almost no-go bits, that's almost not a shock. I used to sit on my balcony and watch the police helicopter circle the estate just down the road from me.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Crosby, very sad news from France. Freedom of speech is a vital right that must be protected.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    a new 10% band for low earners just above the threshold (perhaps 10.5k-16k salaries),

    There used to be one of those, Gordon Brown abolished it, funny old world!

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Another one to strike off the Kipper gain list...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30708132

    "A former UKIP general election candidate who quit over offensive remarks made in a phone call will contest the seat as an independent.

    Kerry Smith is to announce he will run in the Essex seat of Basildon South and East Thurrock, the BBC has learned."

    Splitter.
    He will be the Party of the Independent Kingdom United ?
    An Independence from Europe?

    But Mr Smith must know the UKIP strategy for winning the seat, which should cheer up the Tories, as he splits the Purple vote.

    That said, on the down side, I've heard from a few sources Mr Smith is an appalling person, and should be a terrible candidate.
    I wonder if there is any chance Ukip wouldn't put up a candidate?
    Can't see that happening.
    What price would you make Independent winning the seat?
    No chance. I doubt if Kerry Smith would even get into four figures, against a UKIP candidate. And, UKIP will surely run against him.

    Who would poll more as an independent in the GE - Kerry Smith or Brian Coleman? There's only one way to decide....

    (Of course if the electorate was former Arsenal strikers there'd be no doubt about the answer...)
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Indigo said:

    a new 10% band for low earners just above the threshold (perhaps 10.5k-16k salaries),

    There used to be one of those, Gordon Brown abolished it, funny old world!

    Gordon Brown also created it in the first place.
  • shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    Latest Basildon & Billericay odds:
    1/20 Cons
    10 UKIP
    33 Lab
    100 LD
    100 Kerry Smith
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Neil said:

    Indigo said:

    a new 10% band for low earners just above the threshold (perhaps 10.5k-16k salaries),

    There used to be one of those, Gordon Brown abolished it, funny old world!

    Gordon Brown also created it in the first place.
    Even more odd that he abolished it then, unless it was another pre-election-loss wheeze.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Indigo said:

    Neil said:

    Indigo said:

    a new 10% band for low earners just above the threshold (perhaps 10.5k-16k salaries),

    There used to be one of those, Gordon Brown abolished it, funny old world!

    Gordon Brown also created it in the first place.
    Even more odd that he abolished it then, unless it was another pre-election-loss wheeze.

    No, it wasnt even more odd that he abolished it and, no, it obviously wasnt a pre-election-loss wheeze.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I love a long shot, but even I'm not tempted by Kerry Smith at 100/1.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    shadsy said:

    Latest Basildon & Billericay odds:
    1/20 Cons
    10 UKIP
    33 Lab
    100 LD
    100 Kerry Smith

    That's the wrong constituency, I will have some 10/1 UKIP in South Basildon and East Thurrock if available?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    antifrank said:

    I love a long shot, but even I'm not tempted by Kerry Smith at 100/1.

    Poofters ganging up on Kerry again ;)

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    antifrank said:

    I love a long shot, but even I'm not tempted by Kerry Smith at 100/1.

    Lib Dems vs Kerry Smith match bet could be interesting.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited January 2015
    10 confirmed dead by Paris Prosecutor..

    gunmen escaped in black DS, now taken another vehicle.
  • Neil said:

    Indigo said:

    a new 10% band for low earners just above the threshold (perhaps 10.5k-16k salaries),

    There used to be one of those, Gordon Brown abolished it, funny old world!

    Gordon Brown also created it in the first place.
    Which makes abolishing it all the more Gordon.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    On a lighter note - Katie Hopkins to appear in Celeb Big Brother, along with the usual barrel scraping past it, has beens and never were z-listers.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015
    Neil said:

    Indigo said:

    Neil said:

    Indigo said:

    a new 10% band for low earners just above the threshold (perhaps 10.5k-16k salaries),

    There used to be one of those, Gordon Brown abolished it, funny old world!

    Gordon Brown also created it in the first place.
    Even more odd that he abolished it then, unless it was another pre-election-loss wheeze.

    No, it wasnt even more odd that he abolished it and, no, it obviously wasnt a pre-election-loss wheeze.

    And yet http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/apr/30/economy.gordonbrown
    He also said that no party wants to restore the 10p tax band because "it never did the job of getting people out of poverty".
    and Ed Miliband pledges to unto Brown's mistake of dropping the 10% band
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/feb/14/ed-miliband-10p-tax-band
    Ed Miliband has promised to undo one of Gordon Brown's greatest mistakes by announcing that Labour intends to reintroduce a 10p tax band funded by a new mansion tax on properties valued at more than £2m.
    Oh! and good heavens, that mansion tax he is going to spend on nurses for scotland, appears to have been already spent on 10% tax rates.

    Labour: Couldn't find a coherent policy with two hands and a map.
  • Andy Burnhams answer for the NHS 'crisis' is 'to spend a few pounds' adapting elderly peoples homes to keep them out of the NHS is naive to say the least. My sister had her flat converted for her disabilities some years ago but it did not prevent her falling over 12 times and being admitted to A & E. She is now in nursing care under Wales NHS continuing care at a weekly cost of £655. She has recently had to move her nursing home at short notice as her home closed suddenly as it was not viable apparently with 23 residents paying this weekly cost. We live in Wales and it is performing much worse that England. All the component parts of the UK have serious problems that need to be taken completely out of politics as suggested by Frank Field. The suggestion this morning by Mr Burnham that he could merge hospital care with social care without involving huge sums of investment is just unrealistic if you take my sisters costs as just one example
  • shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    isam said:

    shadsy said:

    Latest Basildon & Billericay odds:
    1/20 Cons
    10 UKIP
    33 Lab
    100 LD
    100 Kerry Smith

    That's the wrong constituency, I will have some 10/1 UKIP in South Basildon and East Thurrock if available?
    Oh yes, sorry:
    Basildon S & E Thurrock
    8/15 Cons
    10/3 UKIP
    4 Lab
    100 LD
    100 Kerry Smith
  • Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Another one to strike off the Kipper gain list...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30708132

    "A former UKIP general election candidate who quit over offensive remarks made in a phone call will contest the seat as an independent.

    Kerry Smith is to announce he will run in the Essex seat of Basildon South and East Thurrock, the BBC has learned."

    Splitter.
    He will be the Party of the Independent Kingdom United ?
    An Independence from Europe?

    But Mr Smith must know the UKIP strategy for winning the seat, which should cheer up the Tories, as he splits the Purple vote.

    That said, on the down side, I've heard from a few sources Mr Smith is an appalling person, and should be a terrible candidate.
    I wonder if there is any chance Ukip wouldn't put up a candidate?
    Can't see that happening.
    What price would you make Independent winning the seat?
    No chance. I doubt if Kerry Smith would even get into four figures, against a UKIP candidate. And, UKIP will surely run against him.

    Can anyone explain why UKIP would stand aside in a target seat for a person who wants to shoot some of the electorate, has come out with nasty homophobic insults and said Nigel Farage was corrupt?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    11 dead...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343
    antifrank said:

    calum said:


    I think your model is great and getting behind the UNS is essential. My sense is that Alistair's SMAP model combined with yours would be interesting. I don't think Stirling will be a cliff hanger unless their is significant Unionist tactical voting. Lets hope Lord Ashcroft picks this seat and asks all the right questions.

    Why Stirling looks close in my model is because I have assumed that in such seats the Lib Dems have lost votes not just to the SNP but to a lesser extent to Labour, and that such new voters from the referendum who do not vote for the SNP will nearly all vote for Labour. I don't regard the first of these as tactical voting - the Lib Dem collapse in the polls predated the referendum and is apparently a reaction to their joining the coalition with the Conservatives.

    These are both pure assumptions and I'm keenly aware that they may be wrong.
    Thanks for taking the trouble to let us know of another interesting posting.

    BTW this piece by John Curtice may be of interest - it's been published in the National as well but that newspaper doesn't seem to have a website ...

    http://theconversation.com/labour-really-does-face-a-tough-battle-in-scotland-35929

    "Surely Scotland’s voters will follow up their rejection of the nationalist cause in September with support for the victorious unionist parties in May?

    Such scepticism ignores three key features of the post-referendum landscape, features that between them help explain why Jim Murphy has such a tough challenge on his hands. [...]

    Third, the referendum has seemingly changed the way that voters regard a Westminster election. Until now, some voters have been inclined to vote differently in a Westminster election than the way they would in Holyrood. Accepting that a Westminster election was more about the future of the UK as a whole rather than Scotland in particular, they backed Labour for Westminster but then supported the SNP at Holyrood.

    That distinction seems to have almost entirely disappeared in voters’ minds. Over 90% now say they will vote in the Westminster election in May in exactly the same way as they would in a Holyrood election. "
  • Sean_F said:

    Neil said:

    The Greens are on the verge of taking the lead in the crucial 18-24 age group: Lab 27, Con 26, Grn 24.

    Natalie Bennett to become Britain's second female, and second Australian, Prime Minister!

    More seriously, whatever YouGov are doing to give the Greens high scores in the polls, if it continues then they're only an outlier away from a double-figure score. Will we have ten Natalie Bennett's to adorn PB if such a day ever arrives?

    The public want to see fairness and the Greens in the TV debates too.It shows Cameron's weakness,lack of a spine,that he is too frightened to allow the debates to go ahead with Greens or no Greens.Cameron will reinforce his weakness again with Angela today.He is an Old Etonian fool and an embarrassment to the nation.
    All very convincing except for the fact that Cameron actually wants the Greens to be involved in the debates (for reasons that should be obvious).

    Greens in the debates would be like the Cleggasm all over again, and make it nailed on the Greens out poll the Lib Dems.
    I think the Lib Dems will finish on about 10% or so. There's no doubt, though, they're hit hardest by a big Green vote.

    I do wonder if the Greens will flatter to deceive.

    Their demographics come from those that generally don't vote.

    Plus can AndyJS or someone else confirm how many candidates the Greens are putting up?
  • Looks like the Labour attack lines on the Tories resonate with the public

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6vbq74CcAA7hXI.png
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Another one to strike off the Kipper gain list...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30708132

    "A former UKIP general election candidate who quit over offensive remarks made in a phone call will contest the seat as an independent.

    Kerry Smith is to announce he will run in the Essex seat of Basildon South and East Thurrock, the BBC has learned."

    Splitter.
    He will be the Party of the Independent Kingdom United ?
    An Independence from Europe?

    But Mr Smith must know the UKIP strategy for winning the seat, which should cheer up the Tories, as he splits the Purple vote.

    That said, on the down side, I've heard from a few sources Mr Smith is an appalling person, and should be a terrible candidate.
    I wonder if there is any chance Ukip wouldn't put up a candidate?
    Can't see that happening.
    What price would you make Independent winning the seat?
    No chance. I doubt if Kerry Smith would even get into four figures, against a UKIP candidate. And, UKIP will surely run against him.

    Can anyone explain why UKIP would stand aside in a target seat for a person who wants to shoot some of the electorate, has come out with nasty homophobic insults and said Nigel Farage was corrupt?
    es·prit de corps? ;)
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Looks like the Labour attack lines on the Tories resonate with the public

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6vbq74CcAA7hXI.png

    It's the new religion.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Sean_F said:

    Neil said:

    The Greens are on the verge of taking the lead in the crucial 18-24 age group: Lab 27, Con 26, Grn 24.

    Natalie Bennett to become Britain's second female, and second Australian, Prime Minister!

    More seriously, whatever YouGov are doing to give the Greens high scores in the polls, if it continues then they're only an outlier away from a double-figure score. Will we have ten Natalie Bennett's to adorn PB if such a day ever arrives?

    The public want to see fairness and the Greens in the TV debates too.It shows Cameron's weakness,lack of a spine,that he is too frightened to allow the debates to go ahead with Greens or no Greens.Cameron will reinforce his weakness again with Angela today.He is an Old Etonian fool and an embarrassment to the nation.
    All very convincing except for the fact that Cameron actually wants the Greens to be involved in the debates (for reasons that should be obvious).

    Greens in the debates would be like the Cleggasm all over again, and make it nailed on the Greens out poll the Lib Dems.
    I think the Lib Dems will finish on about 10% or so. There's no doubt, though, they're hit hardest by a big Green vote.

    I do wonder if the Greens will flatter to deceive.

    Their demographics come from those that generally don't vote.

    Plus can AndyJS or someone else confirm how many candidates the Greens are putting up?
    Doubting your bet?!

    The target was 3/4 of seats but I've since seen that rounded up to 500 seats. With 40,000 members there is a good chance of that being achieved.

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Andy Burnhams answer for the NHS 'crisis' is 'to spend a few pounds' adapting elderly peoples homes to keep them out of the NHS is naive to say the least. My sister had her flat converted for her disabilities some years ago but it did not prevent her falling over 12 times and being admitted to A & E. She is now in nursing care under Wales NHS continuing care at a weekly cost of £655. She has recently had to move her nursing home at short notice as her home closed suddenly as it was not viable apparently with 23 residents paying this weekly cost. We live in Wales and it is performing much worse that England. All the component parts of the UK have serious problems that need to be taken completely out of politics as suggested by Frank Field. The suggestion this morning by Mr Burnham that he could merge hospital care with social care without involving huge sums of investment is just unrealistic if you take my sisters costs as just one example

    Good points. Labour disgust me with the increasing way they politicise the NHS and lie about it at the same time. I hope the electorate see through it. Frank Field is right, but given Labour's duplicity and the BBC connivance I wonder how it can happen. BTW I believe that one of the reforms under Landsley was to prevent political interference from Ministers.
    I know this will be a boring repetition for some, but in the 2010 Manifesto Labour said that enough money was now being spent on the NHS and it was capable of finding £20 billion in efficiency savings. They are just a bunch of hypocrites.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    26 casualties reported, 11 dead including two flics...
  • Tactful BBC website thread on the attack...

    Posted at 11:15
    Welcome to the BBC's live coverage of the unfolding attack at the Paris offices of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Crosby, flics?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Mr. Crosby, flics?

    Policemen.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2015
    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Francois Hollande had better reassure the French (or "Frogs" to some on here.... you know who you are) that these terrorists are monsters, not muslims, else there could be all sorts of trouble
  • Neil said:

    Sean_F said:

    Neil said:

    The Greens are on the verge of taking the lead in the crucial 18-24 age group: Lab 27, Con 26, Grn 24.

    Natalie Bennett to become Britain's second female, and second Australian, Prime Minister!

    More seriously, whatever YouGov are doing to give the Greens high scores in the polls, if it continues then they're only an outlier away from a double-figure score. Will we have ten Natalie Bennett's to adorn PB if such a day ever arrives?

    The public want to see fairness and the Greens in the TV debates too.It shows Cameron's weakness,lack of a spine,that he is too frightened to allow the debates to go ahead with Greens or no Greens.Cameron will reinforce his weakness again with Angela today.He is an Old Etonian fool and an embarrassment to the nation.
    All very convincing except for the fact that Cameron actually wants the Greens to be involved in the debates (for reasons that should be obvious).

    Greens in the debates would be like the Cleggasm all over again, and make it nailed on the Greens out poll the Lib Dems.
    I think the Lib Dems will finish on about 10% or so. There's no doubt, though, they're hit hardest by a big Green vote.

    I do wonder if the Greens will flatter to deceive.

    Their demographics come from those that generally don't vote.

    Plus can AndyJS or someone else confirm how many candidates the Greens are putting up?
    Doubting your bet?!

    The target was 3/4 of seats but I've since seen that rounded up to 500 seats. With 40,000 members there is a good chance of that being achieved.

    I'm confident.

    But thanks.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited January 2015
    Hollande arrives at the scene...

    Paris terror level raised to highest. French cabinet meets in an hour...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Awful news. The right reaction should involve a defiant defence of free speech, backed by armed protection (where appropriate) to such publications in future.

    Sadly, I doubt that will happen in this case. What will happen instead is quiet (or not so quiet) encouragement by the government to not be so controversial in future, a lot of handwringing and a further rise in support for the FN.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited January 2015

    I know this will be a boring repetition for some, but in the 2010 Manifesto Labour said that enough money was now being spent on the NHS and it was capable of finding £20 billion in efficiency savings. They are just a bunch of hypocrites.

    Here we are "A Future Bankrupt For All".
    http://www2.labour.org.uk/uploads/TheLabourPartyManifesto-2010.pdf
    Page 4:3
    We will scale down the NHS IT programme, saving hundreds of millions of pounds, and over the next four years, we will deliver up to £20 billion of efficiencies in the frontline NHS, ensuring that every pound is reinvested in frontline care.
    Worth remembering what else Labour were going to cut:
    Tough choices for £15 billion efficiency savings in 2010-11.
    • Tough choices on cutting government overheads: £11 billion of further operational
    efficiencies and other cross-cutting savings to streamline government will be delivered
    by 2012-13.
    • Tough choices on pay: action to control public-sector pay including a one per cent
    cap on basic pay uplifts for 2011-12 and 2012-13, saving £3.4 billion a year, and new
    restrictions on senior pay-setting. Tough decisions on public sector pensions to cap the
    taxpayers’ liability – saving £1 billion a year.
    • Tough choices on spending: £5 billion already identified in cuts to lower priority
    spending.
    • Tough choices on welfare: our reforms will increase fairness and work incentives,
    including £1.5 billion of savings being delivered.
    • Tough choices on assets: £20 billion of asset sales by 2020.
    • Tough choices on tax: a bonus tax, reduced tax relief on pensions for the best off,
    a new 50p tax rate on earnings over £150,000 and one penny on National Insurance
    Contributions
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Watcher, cheers.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Francois Hollande had better reassure the French (or "Frogs" to some on here.... you know who you are) that these terrorists are monsters, not muslims, else there could be all sorts of trouble
    Does Nigel not go out for a 'Froggy' when he's picking up a takeaway in Strasbourg?
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Tactful BBC website thread on the attack...

    Posted at 11:15
    Welcome to the BBC's live coverage of the unfolding attack at the Paris offices of satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

    They usually add (especially if it is some disaster or other) something along the lines of 'if you have seen or suffered anything gruesome let us know'
  • RodCrosby said:

    Hollande arrives at the scene...

    Paris terror level raised to highest. French cabinet meets in an hour...

    Surely the priority with Paris reported on maximum alert is for all resources to be put in catching the criminals who were last heard trying to escape and are still in Paris.... security for politicos must be a distraction with the chase still going on???
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    edited January 2015
    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Francois Hollande had better reassure the French (or "Frogs" to some on here.... you know who you are) that these terrorists are monsters, not muslims, else there could be all sorts of trouble

    Well, they are monsters. Probably Moslems too, but we'll have to get that confirmed. Whether they did it because they are monsters or because they are Moslems, or because to be a Moslem you have to be a monster, is something that will no doubt be debated by all and sundry on here and elsewhere for a long time to come.

    What I am sure we all hope is that they are caught swiftly and severely punished for this barbarism. It is an attack on free speech, of course. But what it also is much more than that is cold-blooded, cowardly murder. Eleven have been killed, dozens more - friends, family and witnesses - will be directly and permanently affected.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Francois Hollande had better reassure the French (or "Frogs" to some on here.... you know who you are) that these terrorists are monsters, not muslims, else there could be all sorts of trouble
    Does Nigel not go out for a 'Froggy' when he's picking up a takeaway in Strasbourg?
    I wouldn't have thought so, unless he was with foxinsox and TSE and was trying to fit in
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited January 2015
    The problems with A&E in NHS England do look like a political gold mine for Labour. The Govt seems to have failed to head off the known problem (from a year ago) and failed to communicate the worse problems in NHS Wales and failed to blitz the media with the Mid Staffs disaster. More a result of political ineptitude and not a fair shake for the Coalition.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567

    I believe that one of the reforms under Landsley was to prevent political interference from Ministers.

    Here's an article by a local doctor, who is also a Conservative County Councillor. He echoes the point about depoliticising but is not very complimentary about the Government initiatives in the area.

    http://bramcotetoday.org.uk/2015/01/07/a-downgraded-nhs/

    If we're delving into history, IIRC a provisional consensus was reached between the three parties' spokesmen on health and social care, which was vetoed by Cameron.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    11.47 The Telegraph's Henry Samuel reports:
    "The attackers reportedly escaped in a black Citreon DS, wounding a policemen, then knocking over and wounding "several" pedestrians. They moved towards the 19th arrondissment before requisitioning another vehicle and leaving central Paris via the Porte de Pantin metro station."
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,122
    edited January 2015
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
    - Though these words are regularly attributed to Voltaire, they were first used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre in The Friends of Voltaire (1906), as a summation of Voltaire's beliefs on freedom of thought and expression.[12]

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Voltaire#Misattributed
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    edited January 2015
    Labour guy on Daily Politics drowning over Labour-run NHS in Wales....
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited January 2015

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Awful news. The right reaction should involve a defiant defence of free speech, backed by armed protection (where appropriate) to such publications in future.

    Sadly, I doubt that will happen in this case. What will happen instead is quiet (or not so quiet) encouragement by the government to not be so controversial in future, a lot of handwringing and a further rise in support for the FN.
    I hope that media publications around the world stand in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo by publishing factual criticism of Muhammad.

    I hope those sanctimonious idiots calling all those regular Germans marching against rising Islamism in Europe Nazis now apologise.
  • I guess this might make PMQs a bit more sombre and not the political knockabout forecast.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    RodCrosby said:

    Hollande arrives at the scene...

    Paris terror level raised to highest. French cabinet meets in an hour...

    Surely the priority with Paris reported on maximum alert is for all resources to be put in catching the criminals who were last heard trying to escape and are still in Paris.... security for politicos must be a distraction with the chase still going on???
    I suspect the GSPR and SDLP probably dont help out with chasing villains...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Francois Hollande had better reassure the French (or "Frogs" to some on here.... you know who you are) that these terrorists are monsters, not muslims, else there could be all sorts of trouble

    Well, they are monsters. Probably Moslems too, but we'll have to get that confirmed. Whether they did it because they are monsters or because they are Moslems, or because to be a Moslem you have to be a monster, is something that will no doubt be debated by all and sundry on here and elsewhere for a long time to come.

    What I am sure we all hope is that they are caught swiftly and severely punished for this barbarism. It is an attack on free speech, of course. But what it also is much more than that is cold-blooded, cowardly murder. Eleven have been killed, dozens more - friends, family and witnesses - will be directly and permanently affected.

    Oh sorry I shouldn't have assumed they were "Moslems"
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    11.54 French media offices, including Le Monde, have been placed under police protection.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Another one to strike off the Kipper gain list...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30708132

    "A former UKIP general election candidate who quit over offensive remarks made in a phone call will contest the seat as an independent.

    Kerry Smith is to announce he will run in the Essex seat of Basildon South and East Thurrock, the BBC has learned."

    Splitter.
    He will be the Party of the Independent Kingdom United ?
    An Independence from Europe?

    But Mr Smith must know the UKIP strategy for winning the seat, which should cheer up the Tories, as he splits the Purple vote.

    That said, on the down side, I've heard from a few sources Mr Smith is an appalling person, and should be a terrible candidate.
    I wonder if there is any chance Ukip wouldn't put up a candidate?
    Can't see that happening.
    What price would you make Independent winning the seat?
    No chance. I doubt if Kerry Smith would even get into four figures, against a UKIP candidate. And, UKIP will surely run against him.

    When the public see two ferrets fighting in a sack they will not be tempted to look inside and tend towards throwing the sack away.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Out of interest, what's the country with the largest Muslim population that hasn't suffered from Islamic terrorism?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Awful news. The right reaction should involve a defiant defence of free speech, backed by armed protection (where appropriate) to such publications in future.

    Sadly, I doubt that will happen in this case. What will happen instead is quiet (or not so quiet) encouragement by the government to not be so controversial in future, a lot of handwringing and a further rise in support for the FN.
    Cowing to these ghastly pieces of shit is not the way to go. They're quite prepared to target children as the massacre in Peshawar showed.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    The problems with A&E in NHS England do look like a political gold mine for Labour. The Govt seems to have failed to head off the known problem (from a year ago) and failed to communicate the worse problems in NHS Wales and failed to blitz the media with the Mid Staffs disaster. More a result of political ineptitude and not a fair shake for the Coalition.

    And anyone not directly affected will forget within a day of it going off the screen. Its the usual "todays news, tomorrow's chip wrapping" issue. I very much doubt it will make any difference at all in 4 months time, although we might get to be excited about a small dip in the polls in a week or two.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    RodCrosby said:

    Hollande arrives at the scene...

    Paris terror level raised to highest. French cabinet meets in an hour...

    Surely the priority with Paris reported on maximum alert is for all resources to be put in catching the criminals who were last heard trying to escape and are still in Paris.... security for politicos must be a distraction with the chase still going on???
    I think 'life goes on despite the terrorists' is also very important.......

  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Francois Hollande had better reassure the French (or "Frogs" to some on here.... you know who you are) that these terrorists are monsters, not muslims, else there could be all sorts of trouble

    Well, they are monsters. Probably Moslems too, but we'll have to get that confirmed. Whether they did it because they are monsters or because they are Moslems, or because to be a Moslem you have to be a monster, is something that will no doubt be debated by all and sundry on here and elsewhere for a long time to come.

    What I am sure we all hope is that they are caught swiftly and severely punished for this barbarism. It is an attack on free speech, of course. But what it also is much more than that is cold-blooded, cowardly murder. Eleven have been killed, dozens more - friends, family and witnesses - will be directly and permanently affected.

    Oh sorry I shouldn't have assumed they were "Moslems"

    Why not? I did. But then most of us did when Breivik murdered hundreds in Norway.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567
    edited January 2015

    Mr. P, isn't it a bit weird to have an 'urgent question', when there's the opportunity for six (from the leader alone of the Labour Party) immediately beforehand?

    No, this is a technical misunderstanding. An Urgent Question is not really just a question, it's the Commons term for what is in effect a debate lasting 60-90 minutes (starting with a question from the person who asks for it, hence the term).

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Indigo said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Hollande arrives at the scene...

    Paris terror level raised to highest. French cabinet meets in an hour...

    Surely the priority with Paris reported on maximum alert is for all resources to be put in catching the criminals who were last heard trying to escape and are still in Paris.... security for politicos must be a distraction with the chase still going on???
    I suspect the GSPR and SDLP probably dont help out with chasing villains...
    Paris must be chaos. French law enforcement don't piss about; every plod capable of carrying a machine gun will be out and about by lunchtime.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Pulpstar, we already do it. No UK newspaper published the Danish cartoons in 2005, and last year (or was it the year before?) there was widespread censorship of Mohammed in the Jesus and Mo cartoon story, in both print and broadcast media.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Awful news. The right reaction should involve a defiant defence of free speech, backed by armed protection (where appropriate) to such publications in future.

    Sadly, I doubt that will happen in this case. What will happen instead is quiet (or not so quiet) encouragement by the government to not be so controversial in future, a lot of handwringing and a further rise in support for the FN.
    I hope that media publications around the world stand in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo by publishing factual criticism of Muhammad.

    I hope those sanctimonious idiots calling all those regular Germans marching against rising Islamism in Europe Nazis now apologise.
    Don't hold your breath.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Nice, calm first question from EdM.
  • Socrates said:

    Out of interest, what's the country with the largest Muslim population that hasn't suffered from Islamic terrorism?

    Indonesia?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    What's the chance Marine Le Pen wins the next presidential election now?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Observer, that's a very fair point, as is the riposte that 7/7, 9/11, the Madrid bombings, Lee Rigby's murder and other terrorist incidents (plotted or carried out, or failed [21/7]) all have an Islamist origin.

    We'll see who's responsible. The approach seems a little different to the 'standard' terrorist attack, but then, so was the Bombay [Mumbai] attack.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Francois Hollande had better reassure the French (or "Frogs" to some on here.... you know who you are) that these terrorists are monsters, not muslims, else there could be all sorts of trouble

    Well, they are monsters. Probably Moslems too, but we'll have to get that confirmed. Whether they did it because they are monsters or because they are Moslems, or because to be a Moslem you have to be a monster, is something that will no doubt be debated by all and sundry on here and elsewhere for a long time to come.

    What I am sure we all hope is that they are caught swiftly and severely punished for this barbarism. It is an attack on free speech, of course. But what it also is much more than that is cold-blooded, cowardly murder. Eleven have been killed, dozens more - friends, family and witnesses - will be directly and permanently affected.

    Oh sorry I shouldn't have assumed they were "Moslems"

    Why not? I did. But then most of us did when Breivik murdered hundreds in Norway.
    Well, it might make muslims feel bad I suppose, if every terrorist attack is assumed to be by them

    But it seems to have been confirmed.. the gunman shouted "the prophet has been avenged" apparently
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited January 2015
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Another one to strike off the Kipper gain list...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30708132

    "A former UKIP general election candidate who quit over offensive remarks made in a phone call will contest the seat as an independent.

    Kerry Smith is to announce he will run in the Essex seat of Basildon South and East Thurrock, the BBC has learned."

    Splitter.
    He will be the Party of the Independent Kingdom United ?
    An Independence from Europe?

    But Mr Smith must know the UKIP strategy for winning the seat, which should cheer up the Tories, as he splits the Purple vote.

    That said, on the down side, I've heard from a few sources Mr Smith is an appalling person, and should be a terrible candidate.
    I wonder if there is any chance Ukip wouldn't put up a candidate?
    Can't see that happening.
    What price would you make Independent winning the seat?
    No chance. I doubt if Kerry Smith would even get into four figures, against a UKIP candidate. And, UKIP will surely run against him.

    When the public see two ferrets fighting in a sack they will not be tempted to look inside and tend towards throwing the sack away.
    All parties have that problem. Its like when CON and LAB spend all their time telling the public that the other is crap, the public tend to agree with both of them.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Socrates, probably still damned long, I'd've thought. Isn't the vote in a year or two?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    EdM winning this one - difficult to refute his points (I have no idea if they are valid/factually correct).
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    What the hell's going on in Paris? Heard the news at 10 o'clock and there was nothing about this.
  • On topic

    UKIP scores in the most recent Sunil ELBOWs:

    "week"-ending 23rd Dec = 15.4%
    Week-ending 14th Dec = 15.3%
    Week-ending 7th Dec = 16.1%
    Week-ending 30th Nov = 16.1%
    Week-ending 23rd Nov = 15.3%
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Indigo, reminds me of the problem with book reviews (especially self-published). Get good reviews and people assume it's friends and family, or even paid for. Get bad reviews, and people believe them and don't buy the book.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Socrates said:

    What's the chance Marine Le Pen wins the next presidential election now?

    Best price is 7/1.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2015

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Awful news. The right reaction should involve a defiant defence of free speech, backed by armed protection (where appropriate) to such publications in future.

    Sadly, I doubt that will happen in this case. What will happen instead is quiet (or not so quiet) encouragement by the government to not be so controversial in future, a lot of handwringing and a further rise in support for the FN.
    I hope that media publications around the world stand in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo by publishing factual criticism of Muhammad.

    I hope those sanctimonious idiots calling all those regular Germans marching against rising Islamism in Europe Nazis now apologise.
    Don't hold your breath.
    Tom Newton Dunn retweeted a suggestion that the The Sun should put Charlie Hebdo's last tweet on their front page tomorrow

    Must be tempting to phone in sick if you work there
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,711
    edited January 2015
    Indigo said:

    The problems with A&E in NHS England do look like a political gold mine for Labour. The Govt seems to have failed to head off the known problem (from a year ago) and failed to communicate the worse problems in NHS Wales and failed to blitz the media with the Mid Staffs disaster. More a result of political ineptitude and not a fair shake for the Coalition.

    And anyone not directly affected will forget within a day of it going off the screen. Its the usual "todays news, tomorrow's chip wrapping" issue. I very much doubt it will make any difference at all in 4 months time, although we might get to be excited about a small dip in the polls in a week or two.
    How much has the situation been exacerbated by the closing of the qualified-staffed NHS Direct and replacing it with 111?

    People could, and did, ring NHS Direct and get informed help both as to their problem and as to where they should go for further and appropriate assistance.

    First thing Lansley did as SoS for Health(!) was close it.
  • Socrates said:
    I dunno...

    India?
    Pakistan?
    Bangladesh?
    Nigeria?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited January 2015

    The approach seems a little different to the 'standard' terrorist attack, but then, so was the Bombay [Mumbai] attack.

    Same as Belgium Jewish Museum attack - (likely) returning IS fighter using AK.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Cameron struggling at PMQ's.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    It's not for the person asking the question at PMQ's to provide the solutions
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    Terrible news from France. There are far too many Muslims in the world, even in the West, that can't seem to handle any criticism of Muhammed.

    And God knows the warmongering paedophile deserves criticism.

    Francois Hollande had better reassure the French (or "Frogs" to some on here.... you know who you are) that these terrorists are monsters, not muslims, else there could be all sorts of trouble

    Well, they are monsters. Probably Moslems too, but we'll have to get that confirmed. Whether they did it because they are monsters or because they are Moslems, or because to be a Moslem you have to be a monster, is something that will no doubt be debated by all and sundry on here and elsewhere for a long time to come.

    What I am sure we all hope is that they are caught swiftly and severely punished for this barbarism. It is an attack on free speech, of course. But what it also is much more than that is cold-blooded, cowardly murder. Eleven have been killed, dozens more - friends, family and witnesses - will be directly and permanently affected.

    Oh sorry I shouldn't have assumed they were "Moslems"

    Why not? I did. But then most of us did when Breivik murdered hundreds in Norway.
    Breivik he didn't do that the week after a couple of guys in vans deliberately drove them into crowds in France yelling "Allahu Akbar" either. Have you considered applying for a job at the BBC ?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Ed Balls has porked out over Xmas.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited January 2015
    Them 20,000 protestors in Dresden...remember them??

    We should, because it is going to be 200,000 next time around.
  • Socrates said:

    What's the chance Marine Le Pen wins the next presidential election now?

    Much higher than it was a few hours ago. May also be an opportunity for Hollande to show some leadership and get back in the game. Though I imagine he is too far gone for that. I am off to Toulouse tomorrow. I imagine I will find a very frightened country.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JohnRentoul: And with that, Cameron wins #PMQs.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Socrates said:

    What's the chance Marine Le Pen wins the next presidential election now?

    She might win the first round, but would prob still lose the 2nd round something like 60-40. Unless these attacks continue. In which case it could be close.

    5/2 at this stage?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Socrates said:

    Out of interest, what's the country with the largest Muslim population that hasn't suffered from Islamic terrorism?

    Last islamic terrorist attack in Argentina was 1994 (I think) - it is very very hard to find a country, Islamic or otherwise that hasn't had at least 1 terrorist Islamic terrorist incident in the last few decades.

    It is a global problem.
This discussion has been closed.