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  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Cyclefree - ask yourself this. You complain about Labour not being on the side of aspirational, hard working, reasonably affluent and responsible people. Wouldn't those characteristics describe most senior people in the Labour party? Are they really likely to be so hostile towards their own kind?

    Well, no, that's not what I see when I look at most senior people in the Labour party.

    I see people who are far wealthier than me, who have come from more privileged backgrounds than me - (my parents never owned the home I grew up in and at one point the landlord kept it in such poor repair that the local council declared it unfit for human habitation under the 1952 Housing Act and mandated a huge amount of repairs) - who had more privileged schooling than my parents were able to get me and who then abolished the schooling I benefited from, who benefited from legal tax avoiding trusts (e.g. Mrs Hodge), who worked all their lives in well-paid jobs and who move in a rather closed social circle and who have a tendency to sneer at the views of Italian/Irish immigrants (my parents). I see people who are good at providing opportunities for their own offspring but see no equivalent desire to make it easy for others children to break into the charmed circles in which they operate. I see people who don't look as if they worry about where their children will live and how they will afford it or what happens if they're made redundant in their fifties or the value of their pension or how they're going to pay for their retirement or why their savings are being eaten away. I don't see people who feel that they will have to work forever to try and help their children with university fees and rent and house deposits and everything else. I see people who are exempt from the taxes they impose on others.

    And when I look at them from the perspective of my husband's family in Cumbria, senior Labour politicians may as well come from that comet the Rosetta just landed on.

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    edited November 2014

    Mr. Observer, Dyson recently complained that the EU was damaging innovation by excessive regulation, and that we should leave to escape German bullies.

    It was more a complaint about how the regs were being rigged in favour of the Germans AND suppressing innovation which leads to uncompetitiveness in the global economy. What is sadly missing from our EC partners is any realisation amongst most of the Leaders that Europe's social costs and regulations have to be reduced. There is as yet no momentum for radical change outside of the UK.

    Compare R&D spend in the UK to the rest of Europe. We are middling, at best, and below the European average:

    http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/R_&_D_expenditure

    That's our fault and no-one else's.



  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree - ask yourself this. You complain about Labour not being on the side of aspirational, hard working, reasonably affluent and responsible people. Wouldn't those characteristics describe most senior people in the Labour party? Are they really likely to be so hostile towards their own kind?

    Well, no, that's not what I see when I look at most senior people in the Labour party.

    I see people who are far wealthier than me, who have come from more privileged backgrounds than me - (my parents never owned the home I grew up in and at one point the landlord kept it in such poor repair that the local council declared it unfit for human habitation under the 1952 Housing Act and mandated a huge amount of repairs) - who had more privileged schooling than my parents were able to get me and who then abolished the schooling I benefited from, who benefited from legal tax avoiding trusts (e.g. Mrs Hodge), who worked all their lives in well-paid jobs and who move in a rather closed social circle and who have a tendency to sneer at the views of Italian/Irish immigrants (my parents). I see people who are good at providing opportunities for their own offspring but see no equivalent desire to make it easy for others children to break into the charmed circles in which they operate. I see people who don't look as if they worry about where their children will live and how they will afford it or what happens if they're made redundant in their fifties or the value of their pension or how they're going to pay for their retirement or why their savings are being eaten away. I don't see people who feel that they will have to work forever to try and help their children with university fees and rent and house deposits and everything else. I see people who are exempt from the taxes they impose on others.

    And when I look at them from the perspective of my husband's family in Cumbria, senior Labour politicians may as well come from that comet the Rosetta just landed on.

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.
    Ouch. Excellent post.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    George Osborne looks very ill in the HofC today
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Cyclefree said:

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.

    Never has a quote needed a reference from Animal Farm more than this one.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    I could well have this wrong as have only just heard Cleggs comments about EU benefits...

    Isnt a bit ridiculous to say EU citizens are only entitled to in work benefits once they have paid into the system for a while, so as to pay for them? If someone is earning so little they are entitled to in work benefits, they will barely pay any tax anyway will they?

    Yes but it sounds rational. What we would get is a reduction in the attraction of low paid jobs here to Ec citizens. That is the gain.

    Of course it may or may not have to be applied to the young UK people, which also reduces the attraction of benefit kids etc etc.
    Ah yes that does make sense, although I don't think it will make much difference. Economic migrants don't come here for the state benefits, they are just a bonus
    Do please look at this graph.

    http://order-order.com/2014/11/24/ending-the-migrant-worker-subsidy/
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    I'm not sure what data somebody could have to tempt them to lump on at odds on for SNP to get the most Scottish seats. It'd have to be something constituency based..
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    isam said:

    George Osborne looks very ill in the HofC today

    And Ed Balls looks old.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    I could well have this wrong as have only just heard Cleggs comments about EU benefits...

    Isnt a bit ridiculous to say EU citizens are only entitled to in work benefits once they have paid into the system for a while, so as to pay for them? If someone is earning so little they are entitled to in work benefits, they will barely pay any tax anyway will they?

    Yes but it sounds rational. What we would get is a reduction in the attraction of low paid jobs here to Ec citizens. That is the gain.

    Of course it may or may not have to be applied to the young UK people, which also reduces the attraction of benefit kids etc etc.
    Ah yes that does make sense, although I don't think it will make much difference. Economic migrants don't come here for the state benefits, they are just a bonus
    Do please look at this graph.

    http://order-order.com/2014/11/24/ending-the-migrant-worker-subsidy/
    Yes, as I said, it wont make much difference Is just a bonus
  • isam said:

    George Osborne looks very ill in the HofC today

    And Ed Balls looks old.
    PB is too high brow for me sometimes...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,961
    edited November 2014
    F1: more Twittery - apparently the radio restrictions are to be axed for 2015. Presumably the bigwigs realised all the info was just going to be sent via screens in the steering wheel and very subtle codes like "Fernando is faster than you".

    Edited extra bit: with the scrapping of the standing start insanity and double points, F1's in danger of making rule changes that are sensible and popular.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Good grief. Gerald Kaufman is still an MP.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    edited November 2014
    Anorak said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.

    Never has a quote needed a reference from Animal Farm more than this one.
    Orwell is a particular hero of mine.

    His essays are a model of clear thinking and good writing. He thought for himself. He had courage, moral clarity and decency.

    We could do with someone like him today.


  • Another dry run for the GE at PMQs "Only a Labour Government can save the NHS" vs "Only with a strong economy can we protect the NHS".

    This is going to get tedious.......
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,566

    Alistair said:

    Just in case anyone is wondering if SLab are still in the shit or not this tweet is not a spoof:

    KatyClarkMP "abolishing Trident could win back 20% of the SNP vote"

    Are we about to see a massive split in Labour over Trident?
    Katy's a member of the Campaign Group and has always favoured getting rid of Trident. I agree with her and note that Tony Blair, not exactly a prominent leftie, says in his autobiography that he seriously considered scrapping it. But I don't think there's a massive split and it's not an argument I expect to win, partly because the savings are pretty long-term because of the different phasing of the contracts.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016
    Stokes is presumably working on the theory that figures like these kept Dernbach in the team for years.

    Not sure he has got the bit about the photos.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Labour front bench looked a bit gormless there when Cameron ripped Thornberry
  • Amusing of Nadhim Zahawi to claim Shakespeare as a constituent... I expect he's used that line a few times, mind.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    edited November 2014
    Alistair said:

    Just in case anyone is wondering if SLab are still in the shit or not this tweet is not a spoof:

    https://twitter.com/KatyClarkMP/status/535161672374448130

    The curious thing about this - and some parts of her running mateMr Findlay's recent speeches - is that they are positive arguments for independence: they deal with matters which are retained by Westminster, so (edit: apart from their being irrelevant to campaigning for Holyrood leadership of what one of us calls the North British Branch of Labour), the only way the Scots can do anything about them is ...
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173



    You compete by being better in terms of quality and innovation.

    I guess it depends on what your notion of society boils down to. For me - and I suspect most on the left - it is a consensual relationship based on the premise that its existence is about ensuring the best possible opportunities for the highest number of people. A race to the bottom in terms of wages, working conditions and job security does not deliver on that.



    Would that the left did believe as you say. Miliband is still fighting his dad's class war. nothing very consensual in his approach - bash the bankers, bash the rich, bash private education.....

    Mr. Observer, Dyson recently complained that the EU was damaging innovation by excessive regulation, and that we should leave to escape German bullies.

    It was more a complaint about how the regs were being rigged in favour of the Germans AND suppressing innovation which leads to uncompetitiveness in the global economy. What is sadly missing from our EC partners is any realisation amongst most of the Leaders that Europe's social costs and regulations have to be reduced. There is as yet no momentum for radical change outside of the UK.

    Compare R&D spend in the UK to the rest of Europe. We are middling, at best, and below the European average:

    http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/R_&_D_expenditure

    That's our fault and no-one else's.
    And yet we have annualised growth at 3% with unemployment lower than most of Europe. We're not where we need to be but let's not pretend the answer lies with european protectionism and pretend the rest of the world doesen't exist..
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.

    Never has a quote needed a reference from Animal Farm more than this one.
    Orwell is a particular hero of mine.

    His essays are a model of clear thinking and good writing. He thought for himself. He had courage, moral clarity and decency.

    We could do with someone like him today.
    Very true. It's nearly 30 years since I read Animal Farm at school, and there are still passages which sit oh-so-brightly in my mind. Remarkable.
  • You've tried the mean, now try the mode!

    Normally polling averages are conducted using a [possibly weighted] arithmetic mean. But there are other averages!

    So far this month there have been 37 GB opinion polls, of which 11 (30%) have given a Labour lead of 1%, which is the mode of the distribution.

    Any idea on when the ComRes phone poll for November is due? It will be published either this evening, or tomorrow evening, if it will make a weekday Independent before the end of the month...
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Toby Young thinks this latest wheeze from Dr The Hon Tristram Hunt is a gimmic like the "hypocratic oath for teachers"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/11254972/Tristram-Hunt-should-stop-bashing-independent-schools.html
    If a Labour government leant on the Charity Commission to introduce a similar rule change, it would likely meet with the same fate. It could try another method of forcing independent schools to comply with this new edict, such as amending a statutory instrument, but that would almost certainly fall foul of the Human Rights Act because it would be discriminatory to require certain charities to jump through various hoops and not others. The chances of Hunt's proposal ever seeing the light of day are, therefore, pretty remote.

    My reluctant conclusion is that this is yet another gimmick, much like Hunt's suggestion that teachers should swear the educational equivalent of a Hippocratic oath. The difference is, this latest wheeze is unlikely to be mercilessly ridiculed on Twitter. Independent schools are a soft target and any attack on them will always go down well with Labour's base. But do they deserve to be constantly pilloried in this way, particularly by politicians who have themselves benefited from a public school education?
  • No to sure if it was entirely wise of that Labour MP to raise white van man......The Labour front bench was a picture when Cameron replied to the first white van question.....
  • Mr. Observer, Dyson recently complained that the EU was damaging innovation by excessive regulation, and that we should leave to escape German bullies.

    It was more a complaint about how the regs were being rigged in favour of the Germans AND suppressing innovation which leads to uncompetitiveness in the global economy. What is sadly missing from our EC partners is any realisation amongst most of the Leaders that Europe's social costs and regulations have to be reduced. There is as yet no momentum for radical change outside of the UK.

    Compare R&D spend in the UK to the rest of Europe. We are middling, at best, and below the European average:
    http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/R_&_D_expenditure
    That's our fault and no-one else's.
    Why is Eurozone growth lagging so badly then? Does this R&D spending include EC govt "investment" in white elephants?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree - ask yourself this. You complain about Labour not being on the side of aspirational, hard working, reasonably affluent and responsible people. Wouldn't those characteristics describe most senior people in the Labour party? Are they really likely to be so hostile towards their own kind?

    Well, no, that's not what I see when I look at most senior people in the Labour party.

    I see people who are far wealthier than me, who have come from more privileged backgrounds than me - (my parents never owned the home I grew up in and at one point the landlord kept it in such poor repair that the local council declared it unfit for human habitation under the 1952 Housing Act and mandated a huge amount of repairs) - who had more privileged schooling than my parents were able to get me and who then abolished the schooling I benefited from, who benefited from legal tax avoiding trusts (e.g. Mrs Hodge), who worked all their lives in well-paid jobs and who move in a rather closed social circle and who have a tendency to sneer at the views of Italian/Irish immigrants (my parents). I see people who are good at providing opportunities for their own offspring but see no equivalent desire to make it easy for others children to break into the charmed circles in which they operate. I see people who don't look as if they worry about where their children will live and how they will afford it or what happens if they're made redundant in their fifties or the value of their pension or how they're going to pay for their retirement or why their savings are being eaten away. I don't see people who feel that they will have to work forever to try and help their children with university fees and rent and house deposits and everything else. I see people who are exempt from the taxes they impose on others.

    And when I look at them from the perspective of my husband's family in Cumbria, senior Labour politicians may as well come from that comet the Rosetta just landed on.

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.
    Candidate for Post of the Year. Bravo.
  • Reckless barracked by a Labour MP "where's your mate?"
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Reckless barracked by a Labour MP "where's your mate?"

    He didn't say that, he said to the Tories "He is one of your mates"
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree - ask yourself this. You complain about Labour not being on the side of aspirational, hard working, reasonably affluent and responsible people. Wouldn't those characteristics describe most senior people in the Labour party? Are they really likely to be so hostile towards their own kind?

    Well, no, that's not what I see when I look at most senior people in the Labour party.

    I see people who are far wealthier than me, who have come from more privileged backgrounds than me - (my parents never owned the home I grew up in and at one point the landlord kept it in such poor repair that the local council declared it unfit for human habitation under the 1952 Housing Act and mandated a huge amount of repairs) - who had more privileged schooling than my parents were able to get me and who then abolished the schooling I benefited from, who benefited from legal tax avoiding trusts (e.g. Mrs Hodge), who worked all their lives in well-paid jobs and who move in a rather closed social circle and who have a tendency to sneer at the views of Italian/Irish immigrants (my parents). I see people who are good at providing opportunities for their own offspring but see no equivalent desire to make it easy for others children to break into the charmed circles in which they operate. I see people who don't look as if they worry about where their children will live and how they will afford it or what happens if they're made redundant in their fifties or the value of their pension or how they're going to pay for their retirement or why their savings are being eaten away. I don't see people who feel that they will have to work forever to try and help their children with university fees and rent and house deposits and everything else. I see people who are exempt from the taxes they impose on others.

    And when I look at them from the perspective of my husband's family in Cumbria, senior Labour politicians may as well come from that comet the Rosetta just landed on.

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.
    Candidate for Post of the Year. Bravo.
    Agree, brilliant post.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCPeterH: Speaker says Mark Reckless "will be heard, however long it takes" Tories shoot back " he's only got 6 months' !!
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree - ask yourself this. You complain about Labour not being on the side of aspirational, hard working, reasonably affluent and responsible people. Wouldn't those characteristics describe most senior people in the Labour party? Are they really likely to be so hostile towards their own kind?

    Well, no, that's not what I see when I look at most senior people in the Labour party.

    I see people who are far wealthier than me, who have come from more privileged backgrounds than me - (my parents never owned the home I grew up in and at one point the landlord kept it in such poor repair that the local council declared it unfit for human habitation under the 1952 Housing Act and mandated a huge amount of repairs) - who had more privileged schooling than my parents were able to get me and who then abolished the schooling I benefited from, who benefited from legal tax avoiding trusts (e.g. Mrs Hodge), who worked all their lives in well-paid jobs and who move in a rather closed social circle and who have a tendency to sneer at the views of Italian/Irish immigrants (my parents). I see people who are good at providing opportunities for their own offspring but see no equivalent desire to make it easy for others children to break into the charmed circles in which they operate. I see people who don't look as if they worry about where their children will live and how they will afford it or what happens if they're made redundant in their fifties or the value of their pension or how they're going to pay for their retirement or why their savings are being eaten away. I don't see people who feel that they will have to work forever to try and help their children with university fees and rent and house deposits and everything else. I see people who are exempt from the taxes they impose on others.

    And when I look at them from the perspective of my husband's family in Cumbria, senior Labour politicians may as well come from that comet the Rosetta just landed on.

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.
    Laughable.

    Then you go off and vote for the Party that encompasses all these privileges and a whole lot more.

    As if the Tories give a stuff for people like you! Don't flatter youself, because they don't.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Anorak said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.

    Never has a quote needed a reference from Animal Farm more than this one.
    Orwell is a particular hero of mine.

    His essays are a model of clear thinking and good writing. He thought for himself. He had courage, moral clarity and decency.

    We could do with someone like him today.
    Very true. It's nearly 30 years since I read Animal Farm at school, and there are still passages which sit oh-so-brightly in my mind. Remarkable.
    His essay on Politics and the English Language is brilliant.. He describes political language - and this could apply now just as much as it did in the 1940's - as"designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."

    And this - "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink."
  • F1: more Twittery - apparently the radio restrictions are to be axed for 2015. Presumably the bigwigs realised all the info was just going to be sent via screens in the steering wheel and very subtle codes like "Fernando is faster than you".

    Edited extra bit: with the scrapping of the standing start insanity and double points, F1's in danger of making rule changes that are sensible and popular.

    Oh I'm sure they'll think up some more WTFery for next season (as per usual)
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited November 2014
    Candidate for Post of the Year. Bravo.

    If a CCHQ person is reading this, they should cut and paste that post and put it verbatim into a Cameron or Osborne speech.

    Taking out the biog detail, naturally...
  • Mr. 4u, must admit, I'm waiting to see what crazed notion will be proposed. Maybe they'll just make exploding tyres again.
  • isam said:

    Reckless barracked by a Labour MP "where's your mate?"

    He didn't say that, he said to the Tories "He is one of your mates"
    Not what I heard - and Carswell wasn't there.....
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.

    Never has a quote needed a reference from Animal Farm more than this one.
    Orwell is a particular hero of mine.

    His essays are a model of clear thinking and good writing. He thought for himself. He had courage, moral clarity and decency.

    We could do with someone like him today.
    Very true. It's nearly 30 years since I read Animal Farm at school, and there are still passages which sit oh-so-brightly in my mind. Remarkable.
    His essay on Politics and the English Language is brilliant.. He describes political language - and this could apply now just as much as it did in the 1940's - as"designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."

    And this - "The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink."
    Quite right, and if I get the chance to debate Thornberry next year, I will use that essay as the inspiration for my approach
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Amusing of Nadhim Zahawi to claim Shakespeare as a constituent... I expect he's used that line a few times, mind.

    Simon Hughes has a better claim to him. Will probably only spent around 2 weeks a year in Stratford.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    re Trident - scrapping it would only save Scotland 10% of the cost but a massive % of the impact of Faslane being shut.

    Seems crazy to me - or is it just an intentional distraction from the epic welfare and education problems in Scotland that the "social justice" parties want to avoid talking about ?
  • taffys said:

    Candidate for Post of the Year. Bravo.

    If a CCHQ person is reading this, they should cut and paste that post and put it verbatim into a Cameron or Osborne speech.

    Taking out the biog detail, naturally...

    Labour politicians are as venal and as self-serving as Tory ones. I am not sure that is really a message CCHQ will be comfortable with.


  • Alistair said:

    Just in case anyone is wondering if SLab are still in the shit or not this tweet is not a spoof:
    KatyClarkMP "abolishing Trident could win back 20% of the SNP vote"

    Are we about to see a massive split in Labour over Trident?
    Katy's a member of the Campaign Group and has always favoured getting rid of Trident. I agree with her and note that Tony Blair, not exactly a prominent leftie, says in his autobiography that he seriously considered scrapping it. But I don't think there's a massive split and it's not an argument I expect to win, partly because the savings are pretty long-term because of the different phasing of the contracts.
    Nick, thanks. I suggest that there is a massive difference between a member of a faction in the party holding a view fundamentally different to the main party's policy and one that could occupy a Leadrship role albeit in north britain. The manifesto that Labour will have in 2015 would become ... interesting?

    PS Tone stood on any anti-nuke promise when first elected as an MP. A promise he never kept. He just dropped it before going for the Leader role.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014

    isam said:

    Reckless barracked by a Labour MP "where's your mate?"

    He didn't say that, he said to the Tories "He is one of your mates"
    Not what I heard - and Carswell wasn't there.....
    Nothing to do with Carswell... the Tories were booing Reckless, and the Labour MP said (to them) "He is one of your mates"
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Reckless barracked by a Labour MP "where's your mate?"

    He didn't say that, he said to the Tories "He is one of your mates"
    Not what I heard - and Carswell wasn't there.....
    Nothing to do with Carswell... the Tories were booing Reckless, and the Labour MP said (to them) "He is one of your mates"
    Labour out of touch as usual ;)

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Nick Robinson on DP is claiming that Ed Miliband is saying that he wants to "weaponise the NHS politically."

    Good to see Ed cares about patients ...
  • taffys said:

    Candidate for Post of the Year. Bravo.

    If a CCHQ person is reading this, they should cut and paste that post and put it verbatim into a Cameron or Osborne speech.

    Taking out the biog detail, naturally...

    Labour politicians are as venal and as self-serving as Tory ones.


    Ah.....but they say their aren't.......

    It will be interesting to see how Miliband's plans to "weaponise the NHS" turns out......

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Ben,

    "Laughable."

    The truth often hurts. Which character in Animal Farm do you associate with?
  • taffys said:

    Candidate for Post of the Year. Bravo.

    If a CCHQ person is reading this, they should cut and paste that post and put it verbatim into a Cameron or Osborne speech.

    Taking out the biog detail, naturally...

    Labour politicians are as venal and as self-serving as Tory ones.


    Ah.....but they say their aren't.......

    It will be interesting to see how Miliband's plans to "weaponise the NHS" turns out......

    Pretty badly, I'd have thought.

  • Nick Robinson on DP is claiming that Ed Miliband is saying that he wants to "weaponise the NHS politically."

    Good to see Ed cares about patients ...

    Meanwhile Dave will be constructing a Welsh NHS missile shield....
  • amazing how kippers are pessimistic about everything apart from their MP prospects....

    Dan Hodges‏@DPJHodges·4 mins4 minutes ago
    @oflynnmep No, you've got a good line going in nicking other people's MPs. Not so quite good at creating your own MPs though.
    0 replies0 retweets1 favorite


    Frank Fisher‏@frank_fisher·2 mins2 minutes ago
    @DPJHodges @oflynnmep We'll have a couple of dozen in 2015, and you'll have pneumonia.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    BenM said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, no, that's not what I see when I look at most senior people in the Labour party.

    I see people who are good at providing opportunities for their own offspring but see no equivalent desire to make it easy for others children to break into the charmed circles in which they operate. I see people who don't look as if they worry about where their children will live and how they will afford it or what happens if they're made redundant in their fifties or the value of their pension or how they're going to pay for their retirement or why their savings are being eaten away. I don't see people who feel that they will have to work forever to try and help their children with university fees and rent and house deposits and everything else. I see people who are exempt from the taxes they impose on others.

    Laughable.

    Then you go off and vote for the Party that encompasses all these privileges and a whole lot more.

    As if the Tories give a stuff for people like you! Don't flatter youself, because they don't.
    How the hell do you know who I vote for? You don't. So don't make incorrect assumptions about me.

    Labour increased the tax on my elderly widowed mother by 100% when they abolished the 10p tax rate. The NHS which Labour are elevating into a sacred cow killed my father because the junior doctors went on strike and so he did not get the operation to remove a cancerous tumour done early enough. And that happened long before Thatcher became PM and apparently invented selfishness. Those junior doctors were not being selfish, oh no. And when he died in early 1979 we had to worry about whether he was going to be buried.

    One thing I do know is that Labour didn't give a stuff about my parents and don't give a stuff about me or my family. And that contempt is returned in kind. They may not want or need my vote, of course. One day they might and I have a long memory.

    But this debate started because Nick Palmer pointed out - in relation to the Tories - that parties need to respect voters even if hey can do nothing for them and I pointed out that that applied to Labour too. Nick is, by the way, a polite and thoughtful poster who did me the honour of engaging with my comment not dismissing it and making unfounded accusations.
  • Patrick said:

    Nick Robinson on DP is claiming that Ed Miliband is saying that he wants to "weaponise the NHS politically."

    Good to see Ed cares about patients ...

    Meanwhile Dave will be constructing a Welsh NHS missile shield....
    Then he needs to be careful not to blow off his own foot -- if it is seen as an attack on Wales in general, he will lose eight Welsh Conservative MPs.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    What does "weaponise" even mean ? Ed can't stop talking wonk.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    if you 'weaponise' the NHS, does that mean it kills lots of people?

    Wales and mid Staffs successful tests then...
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173

    Nick Robinson on DP is claiming that Ed Miliband is saying that he wants to "weaponise the NHS politically."

    Good to see Ed cares about patients ...

    It's all about the class war for Ed - back to the 70s.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    Patrick said:

    Nick Robinson on DP is claiming that Ed Miliband is saying that he wants to "weaponise the NHS politically."

    Good to see Ed cares about patients ...

    Meanwhile Dave will be constructing a Welsh NHS missile shield....
    Labour does have questions to answer about the Welsh NHS, as the current coalition (and the previous government) does about the English service.

    The problem may be that the service is just not fit for purpose, and needs a radical redesign or increased limits to service.

    (ducks for cover)

    But saying you want to 'weaponise' the service is crass. If true, then Ed really is nasty.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Orwell is rightly praised for the vigour of his writing and his independence of mind, but he was also very left-wing and anti-establishment in his views. He despised the monarchy, the British Empire and the House of Lords, and wanted to see the abolition of public schools. I'm not sure that his many fans on the right fully appreciate that.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Political Betting...

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 46s47 seconds ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Let's test. I'll also streak naked down Whitehall if Mark Reckless holds his seat next May. You'll do it if he loses. Deal?
  • Weaponise the NHS?

    Sounds like an opportunistic little shit, some might say.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited November 2014

    Nick Robinson on DP is claiming that Ed Miliband is saying that he wants to "weaponise the NHS politically."

    Good to see Ed cares about patients ...

    One suspects more care is lavished on the million potential voters aka 'staff'.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Not content with attacking one ethnic minority brit who has made something of themselves, labour are now going after another on twitter. Sol Campbell.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_1692_2010UKp_14c1li011mcn_10t

    Oldies double cost us - once for pensions, again for healthcare.

    Look at the correlation between this graph and the last !
  • Dan would surely be better betting with ISAM at odds of 11/10 that Mr Reckless will lose.... like i have £100 on...

    Dan Hodges‏@DPJHodges·2 mins2 minutes ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Let's test. I'll also streak naked down Whitehall if Mark Reckless holds his seat next May. You'll do it if he loses. Deal?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Pulpstar said:
    I am in my mid 40's, so I am working on the assumption that there won't be a meaningful retirement age by the time I get there.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Weaponise the NHS?

    Sounds like an opportunistic little shit, some might say.

    Perhaps he means the staff are going to hold a gun to the govts head ?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TGOHF said:

    Political Betting...

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 46s47 seconds ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Let's test. I'll also streak naked down Whitehall if Mark Reckless holds his seat next May. You'll do it if he loses. Deal?

    Not exactly a tempting deal for O'Flynn, as Hodges will have to do it anyway if UKIP have any MP, and also Hodges made his original pledge back when he thought UKIP had very little chance of getting an MP

    If you are reading Patrick, don't agree!
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree - ask yourself this. You complain about Labour not being on the side of aspirational, hard working, reasonably affluent and responsible people. Wouldn't those characteristics describe most senior people in the Labour party? Are they really likely to be so hostile towards their own kind?

    Well, no, that's not what I see when I look at most senior people in the Labour party.

    I see people who are far wealthier than me, who have come from more privileged backgrounds than me - (my parents never owned the home I grew up in and at one point the landlord kept it in such poor repair that the local council declared it unfit for human habitation under the 1952 Housing Act and mandated a huge amount of repairs) - who had more privileged schooling than my parents were able to get me and who then abolished the schooling I benefited from, who benefited from legal tax avoiding trusts (e.g. Mrs Hodge), who worked all their lives in well-paid jobs and who move in a rather closed social circle and who have a tendency to sneer at the views of Italian/Irish immigrants (my parents). I see people who are good at providing opportunities for their own offspring but see no equivalent desire to make it easy for others children to break into the charmed circles in which they operate. I see people who don't look as if they worry about where their children will live and how they will afford it or what happens if they're made redundant in their fifties or the value of their pension or how they're going to pay for their retirement or why their savings are being eaten away. I don't see people who feel that they will have to work forever to try and help their children with university fees and rent and house deposits and everything else. I see people who are exempt from the taxes they impose on others.

    And when I look at them from the perspective of my husband's family in Cumbria, senior Labour politicians may as well come from that comet the Rosetta just landed on.

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.
    Candidate for Post of the Year. Bravo.
    Agreed. Cyclefree "Well, no, that's not what I see when I look at most senior people in the Labour party."
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    Political Betting...

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 46s47 seconds ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Let's test. I'll also streak naked down Whitehall if Mark Reckless holds his seat next May. You'll do it if he loses. Deal?

    Not exactly a tempting deal for O'Flynn, as Hodges will have to do it anyway if UKIP have any MP, and also Hodges made his original pledge back when he thought UKIP had very little chance of getting an MP

    If you are reading Patrick, don't agree!
    Update..

    Patrick O'Flynn ‏@oflynnmep 5m5 minutes ago
    @DPJHodges Dan the idiotic "I will run naked if..." is regarded very much as your thing! Honestly not my style. Will source u a mankini tho!

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 4m4 minutes ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Yes, I thought that would be your response. Start phoning the recruitment consultants @MarkReckless...
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    Political Betting...

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 46s47 seconds ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Let's test. I'll also streak naked down Whitehall if Mark Reckless holds his seat next May. You'll do it if he loses. Deal?

    Not exactly a tempting deal for O'Flynn, as Hodges will have to do it anyway if UKIP have any MP, and also Hodges made his original pledge back when he thought UKIP had very little chance of getting an MP

    If you are reading Patrick, don't agree!
    The chance of Carswell losing his seat is quite remote, so Hodges better get in training now.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,566

    Dan would surely be better betting with ISAM at odds of 11/10 that Mr Reckless will lose.... like i have £100 on...

    Dan Hodges‏@DPJHodges·2 mins2 minutes ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Let's test. I'll also streak naked down Whitehall if Mark Reckless holds his seat next May. You'll do it if he loses. Deal?

    Mental note: regardless of Rochester outcome, avoid Whitehall on May 8.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Weaponise the NHS?

    Sounds like an opportunistic little shit, some might say.

    Be afraid, France. We are going to be sending you our sick.

    Using a trebuchet.....

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Orwell is rightly praised for the vigour of his writing and his independence of mind, but he was also very left-wing and anti-establishment in his views. He despised the monarchy, the British Empire and the House of Lords, and wanted to see the abolition of public schools. I'm not sure that his many fans on the right fully appreciate that.

    They may not. I do. He's a writer I turn to over and over again.

    Were I able to write commentary like his I would be delighted. There is a need for it.

    So much of what passes for commentary nowadays is little more than the repetition of received cliche.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    Political Betting...

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 46s47 seconds ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Let's test. I'll also streak naked down Whitehall if Mark Reckless holds his seat next May. You'll do it if he loses. Deal?

    Not exactly a tempting deal for O'Flynn, as Hodges will have to do it anyway if UKIP have any MP,
    I thought the original DH bet was on Ukip vote shares - not MPs - may be wrong.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    TGOHF said:

    re Trident - scrapping it would only save Scotland 10% of the cost but a massive % of the impact of Faslane being shut.

    Seems crazy to me - or is it just an intentional distraction from the epic welfare and education problems in Scotland that the "social justice" parties want to avoid talking about ?

    Even the MOD say only 512 jobs in Scotland rely on Trident.

  • You can see in the first few seconds of this video on YouTube how quickly the moment passes. One blow and the attacker is gone, melting back into the crowd. The force used is actually fairly low, so I would say the intention was to strike the glass rather than break it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-30190961

    Utter utter BS. Nobody goes up to a glass window with a piece of 2 by 4 just to give the window a tap. If you wanted to give people a shock inside, you just slap on the glass with your hand.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    BenM said:

    Indigo said:

    BenM said:

    No.

    Rising real wages and creation of decent jobs - rather than forcing people into burger flipping ones - are the only things that matter.

    Far too late for the Tories to turn that around now.

    Tell me, how does the government create decent jobs ? Ones that make money for the country I mean ?

    It doesn't cut spending.
    Ever? Even when our interest payments alone exceed what we spend on Education?

    Borrow til we are bust - The Labour way of fiscal responsibility.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014
    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    Political Betting...

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 46s47 seconds ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Let's test. I'll also streak naked down Whitehall if Mark Reckless holds his seat next May. You'll do it if he loses. Deal?

    Not exactly a tempting deal for O'Flynn, as Hodges will have to do it anyway if UKIP have any MP,
    I thought the original DH bet was on Ukip vote shares - not MPs - may be wrong.
    Actually I think you are right, it was 5% wasn't it?

    Either way he is big odds on to have to do the streak though

    EDIT (it was 6%)

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    TGOHF said:

    Political Betting...

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 46s47 seconds ago London, England
    .@oflynnmep Let's test. I'll also streak naked down Whitehall if Mark Reckless holds his seat next May. You'll do it if he loses. Deal?

    Not exactly a tempting deal for O'Flynn, as Hodges will have to do it anyway if UKIP have any MP,
    I thought the original DH bet was on Ukip vote shares - not MPs - may be wrong.
    UKIP 6% unders.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    He has welched it by stating that if Farage is in the debates he won't do it.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    They may not. I do. He's a writer I turn to over and over again.

    Orwell wrote from his experience, as all the best writers do, He was a captain in the colonial Burma police (Hence his dislike of empire).

    Animal farm and 1984 come from his experiences during the Spanish civil war (he was appalled by the practices of the republican communist leadership).

    Quite simply the most influential writer in any language of the 20th century.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    You can see in the first few seconds of this video on YouTube how quickly the moment passes. One blow and the attacker is gone, melting back into the crowd. The force used is actually fairly low, so I would say the intention was to strike the glass rather than break it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-30190961

    Utter utter BS. Nobody goes up to a glass window with a piece of 2 by 4 just to give the window a tap. If you wanted to give people a shock inside, you just slap on the glass with your hand.

    It's bollocks, isn't it?

    'Of course, we know that in an encounter between a small wooden pole and thick industrial glass, the latter will always win, so the people are safe. '

    A small pole? Really? And if the glass is so strong, does the author not wonder why so many other similar windows broke?

    You should listen to this programme, broadcast yesterday afternoon. Part of it was verging on an audio instruction manual for potential rioters.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04ps6py
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Orwell is rightly praised for the vigour of his writing and his independence of mind, but he was also very left-wing and anti-establishment in his views. He despised the monarchy, the British Empire and the House of Lords, and wanted to see the abolition of public schools. I'm not sure that his many fans on the right fully appreciate that.

    I dont think you have to agree with someone to appreciate the eloquence of their oratory or writing, I mean Bill Clinton sometimes talked the most awful tosh, but did it wonderfully. I dont agree with most of Orwell's politics, but his writing was superb
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,822
    TGOHF said:

    re Trident - scrapping it would only save Scotland 10% of the cost but a massive % of the impact of Faslane being shut.

    Seems crazy to me - or is it just an intentional distraction from the epic welfare and education problems in Scotland that the "social justice" parties want to avoid talking about ?

    This post isn't logical. The benefits of Faslane to the economy cannot be massive if the spend is small -they will be a percentage of the spend.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Jonathan said:

    Financier said:

    If we look at the average person's P&L account and balance sheet.

    Gross income has not increased for most wage earners, but net income has increased due to income tax changes.


    Like many families, my Net income fell due to tax and benefit changes.

    Would this not imply your salary was not exactly breadline level?

  • If you want a 50% return in just over 18 months, back Star Wars in the this market, Paddy Power let me have quite a lot on this, it was 4/6 earlier on

    Which film will gross more at the box office six months after release.

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/hollywood/box-office-specials?ev_oc_grp_ids=1607880
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    On topic, isn't it a case that Tories are the more optimistic, glass-half-full sorts? Whereas UKIP are glass completely empty sorts? They are stood at the bar, moaning - because "in the fifty nine years I've been coming to this pub, with my own dedicated pewter tankard hanging from that beam, no-one has EVER bought a round....."
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Indigo said:

    Orwell is rightly praised for the vigour of his writing and his independence of mind, but he was also very left-wing and anti-establishment in his views. He despised the monarchy, the British Empire and the House of Lords, and wanted to see the abolition of public schools. I'm not sure that his many fans on the right fully appreciate that.

    I dont think you have to agree with someone to appreciate the eloquence of their oratory or writing, I mean Bill Clinton sometimes talked the most awful tosh, but did it wonderfully. I dont agree with most of Orwell's politics, but his writing was superb
    The interesting thing about him was that a lot of the Left at the time hated him for what he said about them and he has not always been appreciated by all on the Left since then.

    The reason why he has endured is that there is a moral decency and clear-sightedness at the heart of his work. And that is a rare quality.


  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014

    On topic, isn't it a case that Tories are the more optimistic, glass-half-full sorts? Whereas UKIP are glass completely empty sorts? They are stood at the bar, moaning - because "in the fifty nine years I've been coming to this pub, with my own dedicated pewter tankard hanging from that beam, no-one has EVER bought a round....."

    Devastating insight

    I suppose the Labour voters are all at the local subsidised Trade Union bar?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    If you want a 50% return in just over 18 months, back Star Wars in the this market, Paddy Power let me have quite a lot on this, it was 4/6 earlier on

    Which film will gross more at the box office six months after release.

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/hollywood/box-office-specials?ev_oc_grp_ids=1607880

    Does look like a licence to print none that one. The only slight wrinkle might be if Star Wars was say an hour longer, which means they could get less screenings per day. But even then....
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree - ask yourself this. You complain about Labour not being on the side of aspirational, hard working, reasonably affluent and responsible people. Wouldn't those characteristics describe most senior people in the Labour party? Are they really likely to be so hostile towards their own kind?

    Well, no, that's not what I see when I look at most senior people in the Labour party.

    I see people who are far wealthier than me, who have come from more privileged backgrounds than me - (my parents never owned the home I grew up in and at one point the landlord kept it in such poor repair that the local council declared it unfit for human habitation under the 1952 Housing Act and mandated a huge amount of repairs) - who had more privileged schooling than my parents were able to get me and who then abolished the schooling I benefited from, who benefited from legal tax avoiding trusts (e.g. Mrs Hodge), who worked all their lives in well-paid jobs and who move in a rather closed social circle and who have a tendency to sneer at the views of Italian/Irish immigrants (my parents). I see people who are good at providing opportunities for their own offspring but see no equivalent desire to make it easy for others children to break into the charmed circles in which they operate. I see people who don't look as if they worry about where their children will live and how they will afford it or what happens if they're made redundant in their fifties or the value of their pension or how they're going to pay for their retirement or why their savings are being eaten away. I don't see people who feel that they will have to work forever to try and help their children with university fees and rent and house deposits and everything else. I see people who are exempt from the taxes they impose on others.

    And when I look at them from the perspective of my husband's family in Cumbria, senior Labour politicians may as well come from that comet the Rosetta just landed on.

    In fact, senior Labour politicians look rather more like senior Tory politicians than they do to me or any of my friends and colleagues.

    Oh well said madam.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Getting rid of Trident right now is a brilliant idea..for loonies.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    BenM said:

    Indigo said:

    BenM said:

    Indigo said:

    BenM said:

    Indigo said:

    BenM said:

    No.

    Rising real wages and creation of decent jobs - rather than forcing people into burger flipping ones - are the only things that matter.

    Far too late for the Tories to turn that around now.

    Tell me, how does the government create decent jobs ? Ones that make money for the country I mean ?

    It doesn't cut spending.
    Hate to break it to you, government jobs dont make money, they cost money. Private sector jobs make money, there's more of those been created in the UK than the rest of the EU put together.
    Ah. I see you've been reading the Ladybird picture book "Rightwing Economics 101".

    Private Sector Jobs have no greater value than any other job, as the UKs woeful productivity figures and dismal tax receipts make abundantly clear.

    If zillions of burger flippers are so valuable to the economy - more so than, say, social workers - why is the deficit rising on the back of an undershoot in income tax receipts?
    If you the government have £10, and give me a fiver to cut your lawn, then I give you back £2 in tax, do you have more money or less money?
    That's just wrong.

    If the government pays for people to do stuff, it gets all the money back in tax, less savings.

    "all the money back in taxes"

    Sigh - Even Ed Balls could do better than that.
  • If you want a 50% return in just over 18 months, back Star Wars in the this market, Paddy Power let me have quite a lot on this, it was 4/6 earlier on

    Which film will gross more at the box office six months after release.

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/hollywood/box-office-specials?ev_oc_grp_ids=1607880

    Does look like a licence to print none that one. The only slight wrinkle might be if Star Wars was say an hour longer, which means they could get less screenings per day. But even then....
    Still, people sat through Revenge of the Sith and that was close to two and a half hours or 3 hours of Transformers IV in record numbers

    The other thing against Jurassic World is that whilst Star Wars will be out in December 2015, and has pretty much nothing else on at the same time, Jurassic World is out next summer, and could get buried by other Blockbusters, such as Avengers, Age of Ultron, Antman, Fantastic Four and Minions.

    Ted 2 and Terminator are also released within a fortnight of Jurassic World.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    taffys said:

    They may not. I do. He's a writer I turn to over and over again.

    Orwell wrote from his experience, as all the best writers do, He was a captain in the colonial Burma police (Hence his dislike of empire).

    Animal farm and 1984 come from his experiences during the Spanish civil war (he was appalled by the practices of the republican communist leadership).

    Quite simply the most influential writer in any language of the 20th century.

    I have read all his books; and agree over the quality of his writing.

    He was an Etonian ex Colonial police who did record his discomfort around working class people in many of his works. Despite this (he famously pointed out that the problem was "the poor smell") he was both patriotic and on the side of the working class. I think he would have been pro EU, he certainly was quite open to Catalan and French working class culture.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014
    TheCommentator (@TheCommentator)
    26/11/2014 12:49
    RT Chuka Umunna's race smear against @UKIP is quite extraordinary given the UKIP candidates Labour faces in London http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5374/tooting_view_we_re_back_to_racism_smears_against_ukip
  • Which ever party proposed banning England from playing one day cricket would have my vote.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited November 2014

    If you want a 50% return in just over 18 months, back Star Wars in the this market, Paddy Power let me have quite a lot on this, it was 4/6 earlier on

    Which film will gross more at the box office six months after release.

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/hollywood/box-office-specials?ev_oc_grp_ids=1607880

    http://www.filmsite.org/boxoffice3.html

    SW IV (2)
    SW V (12)
    SW VI (15)

    JP (16)

    SW I (17)
    SW III (60)
    SW II (87)

    TLW: JP (97)
  • Thought Owen Smith mounted a strong defence of the mansion tax on the Daily Politics. Now admittedly Smith had time to prepare, while Miliband was caught on the hop by Klass, but still you wonder why Miliband couldn't have made at least some of those arguments.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Thought Owen Smith mounted a strong defence of the mansion tax on the Daily Politics. Now admittedly Smith had time to prepare, while Miliband was caught on the hop by Klass, but still you wonder why Miliband couldn't have made at least some of those arguments.

    Why was Milliband caught on the hop? It was his policy, proudly announced in his speech to the Labour conference. He should have had all the arguments in favour of it at his fingertips.

    It wasn't like some debate about a bit of obscure VAT legislation.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016
    M insane optimism about English cricket has been demonstrated once again. 280+?? Hah!!

    We have the bowlers to do much worse than that.
This discussion has been closed.