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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tories the big movers in the first week of GE15 Commons

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited November 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tories the big movers in the first week of GE15 Commons Spread betting

It had been a long time coming but the opening of GE15 commons seats spread betting market from Sporting Index was a big moment in the betting build up to next May.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • SNP bubble bursting and Labour in a death spiral. Best news for Scotland in a while.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    SNP bubble bursting and Labour in a death spiral. Best news for Scotland in a while.

    Unlikely to be both true at once.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    Mike: would be good to keep this data to plot as a line graph. Would be very interesting to see how it correlates with poll movement.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    In response to JJ's question on the previous thread:-



    How can we have better border controls whilst being part of Europe and its free movement of people?

    Even under the free movement articles countries are allowed to keep out undesirables, such as criminals. The right of free movement is not, in law, an absolute right. Identifying and stopping - those are the issues.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Scotland is ripe for a right wing movement. However, it isn't the Tories and neither is it UKIP sadly.
  • I haven't got the patience to deal with SPIN. Last election their markets were down 50% of the time and 'suspended'. Doesn't seem to be any different this time.

    I want access to my trading positions as close to 100% of the time as possible.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Scotland is ripe for a right wing movement. However, it isn't the Tories and neither is it UKIP sadly.

    Not sure - socialism, dependency, whining and victimhood run deep.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    SNP bubble bursting and Labour in a death spiral. Best news for Scotland in a while.

    Unlikely to be both true at once.
    Thanks for replying to all my questions on IHT.

    Imagine how awful it would be for Ed if it became common knowledge that he was a legal tax dodger, given his publicly proclaimed disapproval of such practice, during the election campaign.

    I guess it would erect another hurdle for those trying to sell him as PM on the doorstep.

    If someone asks you about that while you're trying to sell him, will you really just say that you don't talk about people's private affairs, and that you've never criticised Cameron for his?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Cyclefree said:

    In response to JJ's question on the previous thread:-

    How can we have better border controls whilst being part of Europe and its free movement of people?

    Even under the free movement articles countries are allowed to keep out undesirables, such as criminals. The right of free movement is not, in law, an absolute right. Identifying and stopping - those are the issues.

    They're not criminals until they've been convicted. How do we stop them before that?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    I haven't got the patience to deal with SPIN. Last election their markets were down 50% of the time and 'suspended'. Doesn't seem to be any different this time.

    I want access to my trading positions as close to 100% of the time as possible.

    That's a very good point, you don't want to be holding a bad spread position if market affecting news comes out.
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721

    SNP bubble bursting and Labour in a death spiral. Best news for Scotland in a while.

    Unlikely to be both true at once.
    Thanks for replying to all my questions on IHT.

    Imagine how awful it would be for Ed if it became common knowledge that he was a legal tax dodger, given his publicly proclaimed disapproval of such practice, during the election campaign.

    I guess it would erect another hurdle for those trying to sell him as PM on the doorstep.

    If someone asks you about that while you're trying to sell him, will you really just say that you don't talk about people's private affairs, and that you've never criticised Cameron for his?
    JJ - the question then is why is it not public knowledge? Media conspiracy? or a case of nothing to see here, move along.

    If the latter, full disclosure would be welcome. If a deed of variation was used and all parties agreed, then both Ed and BananaMan knowingly (or they can sue their accountants if they did not know) entered into a tax avoidance scheme that resulted in no IHT being paid. The same IHT he wants hard working families to pay. The Tories wanted only millionaires to pay, Labour wanted the plebs to pay. While exempting their own millionaires.

    DC's father passed away in 2010. Were similar allegations made about his IHT? I know Labour accused him of using an off shore account for his investments.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564



    Thanks for replying to all my questions on IHT.

    Imagine...

    Oi, last time you said those were your final questions. In any case, I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my previous replies...

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    The point about complete, ie complete economic, free movement is that it falls down where economies are managed differently. Its probably the EU putting the cart before the horse and creating the Eurozone first. Most of the rest of the EU want a closer economic union which leads to a closer political union.
    There are rational arguments for or against this. Not least the practicality of oversight and accountability in all of this. But leaving all that aside the UK, that is the general public and certainly the tory party, do not want ever closer union.

    Under those circumstances it perfectly rational to qualify free movement in an extension of the limits Cyclefree point out. Being flagrantly and unilaterally arbitary about it however is hardly clever since we have many of our own citizens living working abroad and we as a nation get benefits from emigration and immigration. Negotiating reform is clearly better on this and other issues, followed by a vote. Given the movements in the Eurozone its necessary anyway.

    The hysteria over Romanians seems to have died down and the real target of opportunity for immigrant hatred coming from UKIP is mainly focussed on Pakistan and Muslims. Nothing to do with the EU.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited November 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    I haven't got the patience to deal with SPIN. Last election their markets were down 50% of the time and 'suspended'. Doesn't seem to be any different this time.

    I want access to my trading positions as close to 100% of the time as possible.

    That's a very good point, you don't want to be holding a bad spread position if market affecting news comes out.
    SPIN's political trader doesn't work 24/7 so markets are suspended overnight.

    They have delayed the opening of the market so that it can be properly staffed and supported.

    At the moment they are the only game in town and it is to be welcomed that even on CON & LAB the spread is jut 6 seats. At GE10 at this stage it was 8 seats and at GE05 10 seats.

    Spread betting is high risk high reward for the bookie as well so it is totally understandable that they don't want to be caught by overnight developments..

    Remember Shadsy closes his Ladbrokes seats market when a new batch of Ashcroft marginal polling is in the offing.

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    ''DC's father passed away in 2010. Were similar allegations made about his IHT? I know Labour accused him of using an off shore account for his investments. ''

    The late Mr Cameron Snr was not a marxist to whom all property is theft.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Cyclefree said:

    In response to JJ's question on the previous thread:-

    How can we have better border controls whilst being part of Europe and its free movement of people?
    Even under the free movement articles countries are allowed to keep out undesirables, such as criminals. The right of free movement is not, in law, an absolute right. Identifying and stopping - those are the issues.

    They're not criminals until they've been convicted. How do we stop them before that?

    If someone has not been convicted then, unless you can show that they are undesirable in some other way - within the provisions of EU law (e.g. if you can show that they are a threat to your society), you can't.

    But if somone hasn't been convicted then you're getting into dangerous territory trying to limit their rights, absent some very clear evidence / justification e.g. when someone is mentally ill and sectioned or, as Cameron is now trying to do, with returnees from Syria.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Completely OT but an outstanding British film "The Imitation Game". Not without the odd cliche but a bravura performance by Benedict Cumberbatch that I didn't realize he had in him.
  • That adds up to 640.5 seats giving the Welsh Nats, Green and NI 9.5 seats between them

    While I don't know much about spread betting the markets must be on indivdual parties not overall.

    However assuming those proportions and allowing 2 welsh nats and 18 NI seats (so they get 630/640ths of the above figures, this gives:

    Labour 287
    Cons 281
    LD 31
    SNP 20
    UKIP 11
    PC 2
    NI 18

    With 4 SF and 1 squeaker not voting that gives

    Labour 287
    Cons 280
    LD 31
    SNP 20
    UKIP 11
    PC 2
    NI 14

    Labour and LD have 318, 5 short of the 323 needed for a majority of 1. With SDLP they are still 2 short. Their only hope is supply and confidence from the SNP, which I think is unlikely

    Conservative, LD and DUP would similarly be just short.unless they got supply and confidence from UKIP, which again I think is unlikely.

    Looks like chaos followed by another election which might be just as inconclusive. Maybe there ought to be a thread on the bankrupting of the parties by four general elections in a year....



  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    ''DC's father passed away in 2010. Were similar allegations made about his IHT? I know Labour accused him of using an off shore account for his investments. ''

    The late Mr Cameron Snr was not a marxist to whom all property is theft.

    Aren't you thinking of Proudhon?



  • Roger said:

    Completely OT but an outstanding British film "The Imitation Game". Not without the odd cliche but a bravura performance by Benedict Cumberbatch that I didn't realize he had in him.

    Best leading man Oscar?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I believe Mary Cameron the PM's mother is still alive
  • The Divisional Court (Sir Brian Leveson P, Jay & Lewis JJ) has refused permission to claim judicial review in R. (on the application of Wheeler) v Office of the Prime Minister (No.2). It seems slightly questionable that a legitimate expectation argument about the government’s decision to opt back into the European Arrest Warrant is unarguable today, given the apparent policy of the European Union Act 2011, whereas Owen J held in Wheeler (No.1) [2008] 2 CMLR 57 that a legitimate expectation point was arguable when the impugned measure had been specifically authorised by the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008. It may be that the Divisional Court conflated the consequences of granting permission (which might be relevant to interim relief) with whether the grounds were in fact arguable. We await the publication of the Divisional Court’s judgment. The challenge would failed in any event had it been granted permission, and perhaps there are more worthy causes to be tried by HM Judges.

    What Wheeler (No.2) conclusively demonstrates is that the so-called “referendum lock” championed by the Prime Minister is in fact worthless. It has repeatedly been asserted that there was a guarantee in law of a referendum when powers were passed to Luxembourg and Brussels. The government is about to agree, under article 10(5) of Protocol 36 to the Treaty on European Union, to a substantial extension of the scope of the primacy of EU law, an increase in the powers of the European Commission, and a substantial increase in the Court of Justice’s jurisdiction. The Divisional Court has held that the government may lawfully do this without even obtaining a resolution of either House of Parliament. It was not arguable that the government needed to pass an Act of Parliament, let alone hold a referendum. The “referendum lock”, then, is a fiction.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    One point re deeds of variation. Do they have to be publicly registered?

    If not - then the implications for the Miliband family story are obvious. If they do, then fair enough.
  • Itajai said:

    SNP bubble bursting and Labour in a death spiral. Best news for Scotland in a while.

    Unlikely to be both true at once.
    Thanks for replying to all my questions on IHT.

    Imagine how awful it would be for Ed if it became common knowledge that he was a legal tax dodger, given his publicly proclaimed disapproval of such practice, during the election campaign.

    I guess it would erect another hurdle for those trying to sell him as PM on the doorstep.

    If someone asks you about that while you're trying to sell him, will you really just say that you don't talk about people's private affairs, and that you've never criticised Cameron for his?
    JJ - the question then is why is it not public knowledge?
    It is:

    City Spy: Red Ed does Marxism the Primrose Hill way

    Ed Miliband has been keen to demand tax increases for the rich.
    But "Red Ed" has taken a different approach to his own circumstances. He and his brother David inherited a £1.5 million Primrose Hill house from their Marxist academic father Ralph — and at the time exploited an ingenious but complicated loophole to reduce death duties greatly.

    When Ralph died in 1994, aged 70, leaving his estate, the Miliband boys agreed a "deed of variation" which allowed a lot more wealth to cascade down the generations — rather than be seized by the state in the more orthodox Marxist fashion.


    http://www.standard.co.uk/business/city-spy-red-ed-does-marxism-the-primrose-hill-way-6519479.html
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Moniker

    "Best leading man Oscar?"

    Certainly a possibility
  • Carnyx said:

    One point re deeds of variation. Do they have to be publicly registered?

    If not - then the implications for the Miliband family story are obvious. If they do, then fair enough.

    Registration of interests in land is only really relevant where you want the interest to bind a transferee for value.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 18s18 seconds ago
    Irony Alert. Tory leaflet attacks Reckless cos he "Studied politics at *OXFORD*" (h/t @politic_animal):

    So Labour will attack Cameron for PPE.

    Tories go after Ed M, Ed Balls & Yvette, Reeves and others for same failing.

    And @SeanT will blog I told you all PPE's are useless, mendacious bastards or something similar.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    Carnyx said:

    One point re deeds of variation. Do they have to be publicly registered?

    If not - then the implications for the Miliband family story are obvious. If they do, then fair enough.

    Registration of interests in land is only really relevant where you want the interest to bind a transferee for value.
    But to vary a will?

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Carnyx said:

    One point re deeds of variation. Do they have to be publicly registered?

    If not - then the implications for the Miliband family story are obvious. If they do, then fair enough.

    It has to be included with the documents sent to the Revenue, in order for them to clear the estate for a grant to be issued in Probate.

    Proved wills are public documents. Since a DOV effectively replaces the will, I assume it must be also. How else would the press have got wind of it?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    That Tory leaflet Waugh & Political Animal show on Twitter is almost as bad as some of the rubbish put out by Dunwoody's daughter during the Crewe & Nantwich by-election. Trying to play the local candidate card vs outsider (who had been standing for R&S for Tories) does seem to be a bit desperate.

    Can't see KT winning with such rubbish, now or in May 2015.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited November 2014
    "biggest scandal in post-War Britain", spokesman of EXARO, on the sex-abuse enquiry.

    "things we can not say at the moment, for legal reasons, but we expect them to come out..."
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited November 2014
    A tweet re Tory leaflet in R & S - Matthew Holehouse @mattholehouse · 14m 14 minutes ago
    @paulwaugh @politic_animal Views of Conservative MPs who were asked to deliver this range from "total crap" to "fucking stupid".

    This may take you there. twitter.com/paulwaugh/media

    Then the Tory slogan has been lifted from Simon Hughes - The Straight Choice...
  • Carnyx said:

    But to vary a will?

    Sorry, I skim read the story. It's likely simply a variation of a disposition taking effect on death under s. 142 of the Inheritance Act 1984. Notice would have had to have been given to the Board of Inland Revenue within six months of the date of the instrument. But that is not public registration.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    RodCrosby said:

    Carnyx said:

    One point re deeds of variation. Do they have to be publicly registered?

    If not - then the implications for the Miliband family story are obvious. If they do, then fair enough.

    It has to be included with the documents sent to the Revenue, in order for them to clear the estate for a grant to be issued in Probate.

    Proved wills are public documents. Since a DOV effectively replaces the will, I assume it must be also. How else would the press have got wind of it?
    The first point I grasp entirely. But a check of the internet suggests that DOVs do not have to be registered (which I suppose makes sense, as they are an agreement between the legatees and effectively the HMRC).

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    Carnyx said:

    But to vary a will?

    Sorry, I skim read the story. It's likely simply a variation of a disposition taking effect on death under s. 142 of the Inheritance Act 1984. Notice would have had to have been given to the Board of Inland Revenue within six months of the date of the instrument. But that is not public registration.
    Thank you.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Why is it that the only Tory with intelligence and integrity is one of the very few ministers to get fired? Dominic Grieve is the sort of MP one could actually feel comfortable voting for.
  • dr_spyn said:

    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 18s18 seconds ago
    Irony Alert. Tory leaflet attacks Reckless cos he "Studied politics at *OXFORD*" (h/t @politic_animal):

    So Labour will attack Cameron for PPE.

    Tories go after Ed M, Ed Balls & Yvette, Reeves and others for same failing.

    And @SeanT will blog I told you all PPE's are useless, mendacious bastards or something similar.

    Yet the Tories selected Reckless as their candidate in the past, presumably with knowledge of his education.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited November 2014
    Carnyx said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Carnyx said:

    One point re deeds of variation. Do they have to be publicly registered?

    If not - then the implications for the Miliband family story are obvious. If they do, then fair enough.

    It has to be included with the documents sent to the Revenue, in order for them to clear the estate for a grant to be issued in Probate.

    Proved wills are public documents. Since a DOV effectively replaces the will, I assume it must be also. How else would the press have got wind of it?
    The first point I grasp entirely. But a check of the internet suggests that DOVs do not have to be registered (which I suppose makes sense, as they are an agreement between the legatees and effectively the HMRC).

    Well I've no idea how the Press got wind of it, unless a clever accountant has hypothesised from the bare bones of the estate gross and net figures which appear in the public record, and the original Will, perhaps cross-referenced with land-registry title records.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    dr_spyn said:

    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 18s18 seconds ago
    Irony Alert. Tory leaflet attacks Reckless cos he "Studied politics at *OXFORD*" (h/t @politic_animal):

    So Labour will attack Cameron for PPE.

    Tories go after Ed M, Ed Balls & Yvette, Reeves and others for same failing.

    And @SeanT will blog I told you all PPE's are useless, mendacious bastards or something similar.

    Yet the Tories selected Reckless as their candidate in the past, presumably with knowledge of his education.
    It is absolute dross, almost as poor as the Lab leaflets at Crewe & Nantwich. I wonder how many Investment Bankers with a PPE degree (Oxon) have been vetted by CCHQ? Looks as if Reckless & Newmark were part of a wunch of bankers selected in the past.

    If the Tories finish 3rd, justice might be done.
  • Roger said:

    Why is it that the only Tory with intelligence and integrity is one of the very few ministers to get fired? Dominic Grieve is the sort of MP one could actually feel comfortable voting for.

    I've met a couple of times, he is a thoroughly decent bloke though a consummate politician
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Roger said:

    Why is it that the only Tory with intelligence and integrity is one of the very few ministers to get fired? Dominic Grieve is the sort of MP one could actually feel comfortable voting for.

    They read this blog and do it to piss you off Roger.

    If you'd say something like GO should be chancellor for life, we'd get a result.
  • Pulpstar said:

    I haven't got the patience to deal with SPIN. Last election their markets were down 50% of the time and 'suspended'. Doesn't seem to be any different this time.

    I want access to my trading positions as close to 100% of the time as possible.

    That's a very good point, you don't want to be holding a bad spread position if market affecting news comes out.
    SPIN's political trader doesn't work 24/7 so markets are suspended overnight.

    They have delayed the opening of the market so that it can be properly staffed and supported.

    At the moment they are the only game in town and it is to be welcomed that even on CON & LAB the spread is jut 6 seats. At GE10 at this stage it was 8 seats and at GE05 10 seats.

    Spread betting is high risk high reward for the bookie as well so it is totally understandable that they don't want to be caught by overnight developments..

    Remember Shadsy closes his Ladbrokes seats market when a new batch of Ashcroft marginal polling is in the offing.

    I know you like it Mike, I don't. If I'm taking a high-risk position on a market I want even *more* access to it, not less. Spreadfair was my favourite for this reason.

    I had a bad experience with SPIN a few years ago when I could hardly ever get on. I got tired of waiting, and checking it several times a day, just to see if they could be arsed to activate it.

    I find Shadsy's constituency seat markets are rarely closed, and he gets them out asap. SPIN seemed to be down for several consecutive days this week - or at least they did when I checked, which is generally early evening.

    Not good enough.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    That adds up to 640.5 seats giving the Welsh Nats, Green and NI 9.5 seats between them

    While I don't know much about spread betting the markets must be on indivdual parties not overall.

    However assuming those proportions and allowing 2 welsh nats and 18 NI seats (so they get 630/640ths of the above figures, this gives:

    Labour 287
    Cons 281
    LD 31
    SNP 20
    UKIP 11
    PC 2
    NI 18

    With 4 SF and 1 squeaker not voting that gives

    Labour 287
    Cons 280
    LD 31
    SNP 20
    UKIP 11
    PC 2
    NI 14

    Labour and LD have 318, 5 short of the 323 needed for a majority of 1. With SDLP they are still 2 short. Their only hope is supply and confidence from the SNP, which I think is unlikely

    Conservative, LD and DUP would similarly be just short.unless they got supply and confidence from UKIP, which again I think is unlikely.

    Looks like chaos followed by another election which might be just as inconclusive. Maybe there ought to be a thread on the bankrupting of the parties by four general elections in a year....



    squeaker not voting that gives

    Was that a mistype or are you just not a fan of Sally's husband?
  • RodCrosby said:

    Well I've no idea how the Press got wind of it, unless a clever accountant has hypothesised from the bare bones of the estate gross and net figures which appear in the public record, and the original Will, perhaps cross-referenced with land-registry title records.

    It's perfectly possible that the co-ownership details are on HM Land Register. Look it up if you know the address: https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry
  • Pulpstar said:

    I haven't got the patience to deal with SPIN. Last election their markets were down 50% of the time and 'suspended'. Doesn't seem to be any different this time.

    I want access to my trading positions as close to 100% of the time as possible.

    That's a very good point, you don't want to be holding a bad spread position if market affecting news comes out.
    SPIN's political trader doesn't work 24/7 so markets are suspended overnight.

    They have delayed the opening of the market so that it can be properly staffed and supported.

    At the moment they are the only game in town and it is to be welcomed that even on CON & LAB the spread is jut 6 seats. At GE10 at this stage it was 8 seats and at GE05 10 seats.

    Spread betting is high risk high reward for the bookie as well so it is totally understandable that they don't want to be caught by overnight developments..

    Remember Shadsy closes his Ladbrokes seats market when a new batch of Ashcroft marginal polling is in the offing.

    I know you like it Mike, I don't. If I'm taking a high-risk position on a market I want even *more* access to it, not less. Spreadfair was my favourite for this reason.

    I had a bad experience with SPIN a few years ago when I could hardly ever get on. I got tired of waiting, and checking it several times a day, just to see if they could be arsed to activate it.

    I find Shadsy's constituency seat markets are rarely closed, and he gets them out asap. SPIN seemed to be down for several consecutive days this week - or at least they did when I checked, which is generally early evening.

    Not good enough.
    I love spread betting, the Fat Lady football bet on Spin is my favourite, just bought the match performance in the Scotland game at 90
  • That adds up to 640.5 seats giving the Welsh Nats, Green and NI 9.5 seats between them

    While I don't know much about spread betting the markets must be on indivdual parties not overall.

    However assuming those proportions and allowing 2 welsh nats and 18 NI seats (so they get 630/640ths of the above figures, this gives:

    Labour 287
    Cons 281
    LD 31
    SNP 20
    UKIP 11
    PC 2
    NI 18

    With 4 SF and 1 squeaker not voting that gives

    Labour 287
    Cons 280
    LD 31
    SNP 20
    UKIP 11
    PC 2
    NI 14

    Labour and LD have 318, 5 short of the 323 needed for a majority of 1. With SDLP they are still 2 short. Their only hope is supply and confidence from the SNP, which I think is unlikely

    Conservative, LD and DUP would similarly be just short.unless they got supply and confidence from UKIP, which again I think is unlikely.

    Looks like chaos followed by another election which might be just as inconclusive. Maybe there ought to be a thread on the bankrupting of the parties by four general elections in a year....

    A Labour-LD coalition would be enough to govern as a minority, on those figures, for most (if not all) the 5-year term. They'd only be 7 short of an absolute majority and 5, as you say, in practice without Sinn Fein.

    Assuming the SDLP wouldn't support them (which they normally would do) they'd need 319 MPs to vote against them to bring them down in a vote of no confidence.

    Where would those votes come from?

    It'd require something like SNP, UKIP, Conservatives and the DUP to all unite to bring the government down (20 + 11 + 280 + 8) with a majority of 1. They'd have to present a single united front without a single rebel.

    The odds of such unlikely bedfellows doing that are remote. I could only see that happening if the government was so spectacularly incompetent that it alienated absolutely everybody, and had nothing left to offer any of the minor parties.

    In those circumstances, it'd be much more likely the Liberal Democrats had jumped ship first, which might trigger the no-confidence vote in itself anyway.

    In practice, such a government would survive the full-term (with a lot of jockeying and horse-trading along the way) assuming it kept the Lab-LD coalition together.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited November 2014

    Pulpstar said:

    I haven't got the patience to deal with SPIN. Last election their markets were down 50% of the time and 'suspended'. Doesn't seem to be any different this time.

    I want access to my trading positions as close to 100% of the time as possible.

    That's a very good point, you don't want to be holding a bad spread position if market affecting news comes out.
    SPIN's political trader doesn't work 24/7 so markets are suspended overnight.

    They have delayed the opening of the market so that it can be properly staffed and supported.

    At the moment they are the only game in town and it is to be welcomed that even on CON & LAB the spread is jut 6 seats. At GE10 at this stage it was 8 seats and at GE05 10 seats.

    Spread betting is high risk high reward for the bookie as well so it is totally understandable that they don't want to be caught by overnight developments..

    Remember Shadsy closes his Ladbrokes seats market when a new batch of Ashcroft marginal polling is in the offing.

    I know you like it Mike, I don't. If I'm taking a high-risk position on a market I want even *more* access to it, not less. Spreadfair was my favourite for this reason.

    I had a bad experience with SPIN a few years ago when I could hardly ever get on. I got tired of waiting, and checking it several times a day, just to see if they could be arsed to activate it.

    I find Shadsy's constituency seat markets are rarely closed, and he gets them out asap. SPIN seemed to be down for several consecutive days this week - or at least they did when I checked, which is generally early evening.

    Not good enough.
    The demise of Spreadfair in 2008 was a total disaster and political betting has not been like it since. On an exchange market there needs to be no intervention by the operator.

    Where the bookie fixes the odds then that is totally different and you cannot expect any firm to operate 24/7. I'm told that they'll be open ever day but not overnight.

    If you don't like it then go elsewhere.



  • That adds up to 640.5 seats giving the Welsh Nats, Green and NI 9.5 seats between them

    While I don't know much about spread betting the markets must be on indivdual parties not overall.

    However assuming those proportions and allowing 2 welsh nats and 18 NI seats (so they get 630/640ths of the above figures, this gives:

    Labour 287
    Cons 281
    LD 31
    SNP 20
    UKIP 11
    PC 2
    NI 18

    With 4 SF and 1 squeaker not voting that gives

    Labour 287
    Cons 280
    LD 31
    SNP 20
    UKIP 11
    PC 2
    NI 14

    Labour and LD have 318, 5 short of the 323 needed for a majority of 1. With SDLP they are still 2 short. Their only hope is supply and confidence from the SNP, which I think is unlikely

    Conservative, LD and DUP would similarly be just short.unless they got supply and confidence from UKIP, which again I think is unlikely.

    Looks like chaos followed by another election which might be just as inconclusive. Maybe there ought to be a thread on the bankrupting of the parties by four general elections in a year....

    Both times in the 20th century that there were two rapid inconclusive elections (1910 and 1974), the second one produced a parliament that lasted several years: almost the full term for Wilson / Callaghan (though it was brought down in a vote of confidence), and 3+ years for Asquith, before WWI changed the circumstances.

    Even if 2015 were to be another double-election year, I doubt there'd be a third in 2016, never mind a fourth (though the Scottish voters might be getting fed up of going to the polls by then).
  • Pulpstar said:

    I haven't got the patience to deal with SPIN. Last election their markets were down 50% of the time and 'suspended'. Doesn't seem to be any different this time.

    I want access to my trading positions as close to 100% of the time as possible.

    That's a very good point, you don't want to be holding a bad spread position if market affecting news comes out.
    SPIN's political trader doesn't work 24/7 so markets are suspended overnight.

    They have delayed the opening of the market so that it can be properly staffed and supported.

    At the moment they are the only game in town and it is to be welcomed that even on CON & LAB the spread is jut 6 seats. At GE10 at this stage it was 8 seats and at GE05 10 seats.

    Spread betting is high risk high reward for the bookie as well so it is totally understandable that they don't want to be caught by overnight developments..

    Remember Shadsy closes his Ladbrokes seats market when a new batch of Ashcroft marginal polling is in the offing.

    I know you like it Mike, I don't. If I'm taking a high-risk position on a market I want even *more* access to it, not less. Spreadfair was my favourite for this reason.

    I had a bad experience with SPIN a few years ago when I could hardly ever get on. I got tired of waiting, and checking it several times a day, just to see if they could be arsed to activate it.

    I find Shadsy's constituency seat markets are rarely closed, and he gets them out asap. SPIN seemed to be down for several consecutive days this week - or at least they did when I checked, which is generally early evening.

    Not good enough.
    I love spread betting, the Fat Lady football bet on Spin is my favourite, just bought the match performance in the Scotland game at 90
    Good luck with the bet. It's a personal view, but it's just not for me.

    (well, at the very least, not the way SPIN currently run it)
  • On topic, a gap of 6, down from 18: crossover imminent?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    edited November 2014
    Alanbrooke

    Talking of bright sparks....up pops Hazel Blears. What was she doing to the selection panel in Salford that tempted them to choose her as their candidate?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656
  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    Conservative betters will need to keep their nerve on November 21st …

    However, the market is right.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    drspyn Actually Brooks studied History
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    HYUFD said:

    drspyn Actually Brooks studied History

    OK - but he was a banker.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited November 2014
    Re "the Speaker not voting":

    The Speaker should be counted in the analysis and he should be counted as Con.

    The reason is simple - whilst he doesn't vote, the 3 Deputy Speakers also don't vote - and because the Speaker was originally Con, Lab has to supply two Deputy Speakers and Con only supplies one Deputy Speaker.

    So - either count the Speaker as Con or if you don't do that you must deduct two from Lab and one from Con for Deputy Speakers.

    Which is why the BBC election results website simply counts the Speaker as Con.
  • HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    I have to say, putting out a leaflet that essentially says "we made a really crap selection choice last time; trust us to get it right now", is asking a lot of the public.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,679

    Itajai said:

    SNP bubble bursting and Labour in a death spiral. Best news for Scotland in a while.

    Unlikely to be both true at once.
    Thanks for replying to all my questions on IHT.

    Imagine how awful it would be for Ed if it became common knowledge that he was a legal tax dodger, given his publicly proclaimed disapproval of such practice, during the election campaign.

    I guess it would erect another hurdle for those trying to sell him as PM on the doorstep.

    If someone asks you about that while you're trying to sell him, will you really just say that you don't talk about people's private affairs, and that you've never criticised Cameron for his?
    JJ - the question then is why is it not public knowledge?

    Ed Miliband has been keen to demand tax increases for the rich.
    But "Red Ed" has taken a different approach to his own circumstances. He and his brother David inherited a £1.5 million Primrose Hill house from their Marxist academic father Ralph — and at the time exploited an ingenious but complicated loophole to reduce death duties greatly.

    When Ralph died in 1994, aged 70, leaving his estate, the Miliband boys agreed a "deed of variation" which allowed a lot more wealth to cascade down the generations — rather than be seized by the state in the more orthodox Marxist fashion.


    http://www.standard.co.uk/business/city-spy-red-ed-does-marxism-the-primrose-hill-way-6519479.html
    It is not an ingenious and complicated loophole to reduce death duties greatly! A deed of variation is straightforward and commonplace and used when you don't want the inheritance yourself and vary the will so someone else gets it.

    In this case I presume it was varied so the Miliband children got it. He presumably didn't need the cash himself. The estate would still have had to pay IHT on it. Miliband could have got the same effect by inheriting it himself and then immediately gifting it to his children and surviving seven years.

    To claim it is "an ingenious and complicated loophole to cascade wealth down the generations" is ridiculous! A non-story.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    If the attack line was local v London Banker, with Oxon PPE it would have looked like a vote for the non establishment party v LibLabCon stuff beloved of some.

    Like the C and N leaflets it is parochial and rather sad. Imagine the fuss if Labour in Witney did the same to Dave.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @HYUFD

    The sad thing about that leaflet is that there's not a single policy mentioned on there.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Barnesian said:

    Itajai said:

    SNP bubble bursting and Labour in a death spiral. Best news for Scotland in a while.

    Unlikely to be both true at once.
    Thanks for replying to all my questions on IHT.

    Imagine how awful it would be for Ed if it became common knowledge that he was a legal tax dodger, given his publicly proclaimed disapproval of such practice, during the election campaign.

    I guess it would erect another hurdle for those trying to sell him as PM on the doorstep.

    If someone asks you about that while you're trying to sell him, will you really just say that you don't talk about people's private affairs, and that you've never criticised Cameron for his?
    JJ - the question then is why is it not public knowledge?

    Ed Miliband has been keen to demand tax increases for the rich.
    But "Red Ed" has taken a different approach to his own circumstances. He and his brother David inherited a £1.5 million Primrose Hill house from their Marxist academic father Ralph — and at the time exploited an ingenious but complicated loophole to reduce death duties greatly.

    When Ralph died in 1994, aged 70, leaving his estate, the Miliband boys agreed a "deed of variation" which allowed a lot more wealth to cascade down the generations — rather than be seized by the state in the more orthodox Marxist fashion.


    http://www.standard.co.uk/business/city-spy-red-ed-does-marxism-the-primrose-hill-way-6519479.html
    It is not an ingenious and complicated loophole to reduce death duties greatly! A deed of variation is straightforward and commonplace and used when you don't want the inheritance yourself and vary the will so someone else gets it.

    In this case I presume it was varied so the Miliband children got it. He presumably didn't need the cash himself. The estate would still have had to pay IHT on it. Miliband could have got the same effect by inheriting it himself and then immediately gifting it to his children and surviving seven years.

    To claim it is "an ingenious and complicated loophole to cascade wealth down the generations" is ridiculous! A non-story.
    Ed Miliband's attacks on tax breaks for millionaires has been equally ridiculous. His zero-zero attack line was ridiculous. As you sow, so shall ye reap...
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    edited November 2014
    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    What on earth is "The straight choice" hinting at?

    Is she saying that Reckless is an immigrant, come to take a job off an indigenous local? Yes she is. How does that play with her friends in the local Sikh community?

    And why can't she get the basics right - For instance Rochester & Strood should be bold in the first line to correspond with London; and so on.

    Cannot understand what CCHQ are up to here. Some kitchen sink.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Why does John Snow turn into such an oleaginous creep when interviewing young women. Is he after a job at the BBC?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    What on earth is "The straight choice" hinting at?

    Is she saying that Reckless is an immigrant, come to take a job off an indigenous local? Yes she is. How does that play with her friends in the local Sikh community?

    And why can't she get the basics right - For instance Rochester & Strood should be bold in the first line to correspond with London; and so on.

    Cannot understand what CCHQ are up to here. Some kitchen sink.

    glug, glug, glug.

    It is rather poor.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Scotland is ripe for a right wing movement. However, it isn't the Tories and neither is it UKIP sadly.

    "Right wing" and "left wing" are terms that have passed their sell-by date. The right place to be is to be patriotic about one's national culture, tolerant towards people that are not doing anything wrong, tough on those that are breaking the rules and seen to be on the side of regular people. The SNP have managed to pretty much sell that's what they are and have swept the board. UKIP are slowly grasping in that direction and will probably get there eventually.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    drspyn Indeed, and he did do a Masters' in political research I suppose
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,679
    Socrates said:

    @HYUFD

    The sad thing about that leaflet is that there's not a single policy mentioned on there.

    But it is a powerful leaflet nevertheless. In my experience voters are not much interested in individual policies. They are much more interested in whether the politician is likely to be on their side. This leaflet does that. It is simple and packs a message. "A strong local voice" not a carpetbagger Westminster politician.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Barnesian said:

    Itajai said:

    SNP bubble bursting and Labour in a death spiral. Best news for Scotland in a while.

    Unlikely to be both true at once.
    Thanks for replying to all my questions on IHT.

    Imagine how awful it would be for Ed if it became common knowledge that he was a legal tax dodger, given his publicly proclaimed disapproval of such practice, during the election campaign.

    I guess it would erect another hurdle for those trying to sell him as PM on the doorstep.

    If someone asks you about that while you're trying to sell him, will you really just say that you don't talk about people's private affairs, and that you've never criticised Cameron for his?
    JJ - the question then is why is it not public knowledge?

    Ed Miliband has been keen to demand tax increases for the rich.
    But "Red Ed" has taken a different approach to his own circumstances. He and his brother David inherited a £1.5 million Primrose Hill house from their Marxist academic father Ralph — and at the time exploited an ingenious but complicated loophole to reduce death duties greatly.

    When Ralph died in 1994, aged 70, leaving his estate, the Miliband boys agreed a "deed of variation" which allowed a lot more wealth to cascade down the generations — rather than be seized by the state in the more orthodox Marxist fashion.


    http://www.standard.co.uk/business/city-spy-red-ed-does-marxism-the-primrose-hill-way-6519479.html
    It is not an ingenious and complicated loophole to reduce death duties greatly! A deed of variation is straightforward and commonplace and used when you don't want the inheritance yourself and vary the will so someone else gets it.

    In this case I presume it was varied so the Miliband children got it. He presumably didn't need the cash himself. The estate would still have had to pay IHT on it. Miliband could have got the same effect by inheriting it himself and then immediately gifting it to his children and surviving seven years.

    To claim it is "an ingenious and complicated loophole to cascade wealth down the generations" is ridiculous! A non-story.
    That is wrong. The only point of the manoeuvre is to avoid the tax liability which would arise if he inherited, promptly gifted on and then died within the 7 years. It is not ingenious and complicated, and it is very belt-and-braces given Miliband's actuarial odds of not surviving 7 years, but there is no doubt it is tax avoidance designed to keep wealth in the family rather than the state.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    edited November 2014
    david herdson/dr spyn/Socrates/Ishmael x Indeed, but it is clearly targeted at LD and Labour voters.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    DavidH

    "I have to say, putting out a leaflet that essentially says "we made a really crap selection choice last time; trust us to get it right now", is asking a lot of the public."

    I agree and anyway when you are competing against the market leader in shits there's no point in a negative campaign. Far smarter to try to show your nice side not easy with their candidate I know but it's their best chance

  • audreyanneaudreyanne Posts: 1,376
    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    What on earth is "The straight choice" hinting at?

    And why can't she get the basics right - For instance Rochester & Strood should be bold in the first line to correspond with London; and so on.


    No it shouldn't.

    It's in parenthesis so it should not be put in bold. Back to school Ishmael.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    FPT:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: Richard Nabavi: You are talking, I'm sorry to say, rubbish on extradition. If we had remained opted out of the EAW, I've no doubt that we could have had appropriate extradition treaties with other EU countries.
    ...

    I am sure he's a very nice person, but in my (albeit short) time here so far, I have never seen Richard Nabavi taken a position opposed to the current Conservative Party leadership. Ever. Which as far as I am concerned means despite his posts being erudite and written persuasively, they come with zero weight. I glaze over before I reach the end. I wouldn't even know if he was actually making a valid point, because I just wouldn't know where to start looking for it amongst the impeccably argued GCHQ endorsed tripe.

    Thank you for the compliment. I do try to argue impeccably.

    However, you seem to have got things a bit the wrong way round. You seem to be starting from the conclusion that any position of the current Conservative leadership is by definition wrong, and that therefore any argument which supports, at least partially, that position must also be wrong, even if you can't see a flaw in the argument.

    Try keeping an open mind, and read what I actually say on its own merits. You might eventually discover that it is the arguments which lead to me supporting, in most cases, the current Conservative position on many issues. It is never the other way round.
    You're very welcome -I absolutely meant the compliment.

    As to the rest, you would say that wouldn't you? In the previous thread you attempted to defend a bad statute by invoking the fact that under the constitution parliament is responsible -it is indeed technically responsible, but this is the sort of silly semantic rabbit hole that people don't want to follow you down, therefore they just give up. It's clever debating, but who does it actually convince? I have heard you defend the right of Judges to overrule the Home Secretary on deporting preachers of hate, and now turn around and defend the right of the Home Secretary to replace judges. The only common thread is defending what the Cameron regime happens to be doing at the time.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,679
    HYUFD said:

    david herdson/dr spyn/Socrates/Ishmael x Indeed, but it is clearly targeted at LD and Labour voters.

    I think it could also appeal to Tory voters considering voting UKIP.

    I've put my money where my mouth is and taken a small bet at 18.5 that the Tories win. They probably won't but I think it is value based on this leaflet and the strategy it implies.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Barnesian

    'It is not an ingenious and complicated loophole to reduce death duties greatly'

    Yes,a Deed of Variation is just for fun.

    'It can have a retrospective effect for IHT and CGT purposes, allowing for the variation to avoid charges to IHT and CGT that may otherwise arise in relation to lifetime gifts by that beneficiary provided it is made within two years of the deceased's death.
    Although a variation may be made by an exchange of assets in an estate and, in rare cases, a sale, it is most commonly made by a beneficiary making a gift of his interest or a part of it.

    In effect, this is a transfer of value for IHT purposes and a disposal of the asset for CGT purposes. However, if certain conditions are met, the transfer can be treated as having been made by the deceased rather than the beneficiary, consequently avoiding a charge to IHT and CGT on the beneficiary's gift.''
  • Thinking about this story:

    ' Thirteen people have been arrested over a trafficking ring which saw a pregnant woman almost tricked into an abortion following a sham marriage.

    The 20-year-old from Slovakia was sold for up to £15,000 by a gang in Greater Manchester who organised a marriage to a man facing deportation, police said. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-30033201

    Remember the predictions of what the future of Britain would be like from the 1960s or 1970s or 1980s ? The science fiction stories of the time or the Tomorrow's World type programs.

    What they predicted was a bright, shiny Britain of growing equality. All peace and prosperity and progress.

    Instead we get parts of Britain turning into the most backward parts of the Balkans or the most lawless parts of the North West Frontier.

    Meanwhile the 1% continually increase their control of the country's wealth while the government borrows money to subsidise immigrant carwashers and sandwich makers.

    Its fashionable to sneer that some people want to turn the clock back.

    They don't.

    There are very few people nostalgic for outside toilets and yearning for the chance to swing a pick in a field or at a pitface.

    What people actually want is the future they were promised, not the future they are getting.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Barnesian Indeed, although they will have voted for Reckless before of course
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    @Barnesian

    eh?

    'He presumably didn't need the cash himself.'

    Plausible, considering he was dead...
  • HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    I have to say, putting out a leaflet that essentially says "we made a really crap selection choice last time; trust us to get it right now", is asking a lot of the public.
    It isn't just last time either.

    IIRC Reckless was the Conservative candidate in 2001 and 2005 as well.

    Which also shows a significant commitment to the area and contrasts Reckless favourably to politicians parachuted into a safe seat.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    What on earth is "The straight choice" hinting at?
    Dunno. Probably just crass electioneering.

    I wouldn't mind seeing an analysis of Reckless' wedding guests. Daniel Hannon was best man!

    http://markreckless.com/2011/10/03/mr-and-mrs-reckless/
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    A great piece pointing out how despite being fined £4bn, there have been no criminal charges against those fradulent bankers:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11230833/Nicola-Sturgeon-puts-second-referendum-at-top-of-agenda.html
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    What on earth is "The straight choice" hinting at?

    And why can't she get the basics right - For instance Rochester & Strood should be bold in the first line to correspond with London; and so on.


    No it shouldn't.

    It's in parenthesis so it should not be put in bold. Back to school Ishmael.
    Parentheses (not parenthesis) means "brackets". "Rochester and Strood" is not in brackets. In any case I have never come across a rule forbidding bold text within brackets, and, judging by a google of "bold within parentheses," nor has anybody else.

    Otherwise, good post and well up to your usual standard.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    I have to say, putting out a leaflet that essentially says "we made a really crap selection choice last time; trust us to get it right now", is asking a lot of the public.
    It isn't just last time either.

    IIRC Reckless was the Conservative candidate in 2001 and 2005 as well.

    Which also shows a significant commitment to the area and contrasts Reckless favourably to politicians parachuted into a safe seat.
    Plus Reckless is from Eltham it's hardly like he's a Geordie
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Ishmael_X said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    What on earth is "The straight choice" hinting at?

    And why can't she get the basics right - For instance Rochester & Strood should be bold in the first line to correspond with London; and so on.


    No it shouldn't.

    It's in parenthesis so it should not be put in bold. Back to school Ishmael.
    Parentheses (not parenthesis) means "brackets". "Rochester and Strood" is not in brackets. In any case I have never come across a rule forbidding bold text within brackets, and, judging by a google of "bold within parentheses," nor has anybody else.

    Otherwise, good post and well up to your usual standard.
    #pwn3d
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Socrates said:

    Scotland is ripe for a right wing movement. However, it isn't the Tories and neither is it UKIP sadly.

    "Right wing" and "left wing" are terms that have passed their sell-by date. The right place to be is to be patriotic about one's national culture, tolerant towards people that are not doing anything wrong, tough on those that are breaking the rules and seen to be on the side of regular people. The SNP have managed to pretty much sell that's what they are and have swept the board. UKIP are slowly grasping in that direction and will probably get there eventually.
    I quite agree. It's just that I don't know that they have been successfully replaced by something else yet.

    Personally I see history as a continuum of the people vs. those small numbers of people who would oppress them -with left wing philosophies and regimes of course being amongst the most pernicious, so not a 'left wing' view -more a traditional liberal view. Cobden & Bright etc.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Scotland is ripe for a right wing movement. However, it isn't the Tories and neither is it UKIP sadly.

    "Right wing" and "left wing" are terms that have passed their sell-by date. The right place to be is to be patriotic about one's national culture, tolerant towards people that are not doing anything wrong, tough on those that are breaking the rules and seen to be on the side of regular people. The SNP have managed to pretty much sell that's what they are and have swept the board. UKIP are slowly grasping in that direction and will probably get there eventually.
    I quite agree. It's just that I don't know that they have been successfully replaced by something else yet.

    Personally I see history as a continuum of the people vs. those small numbers of people who would oppress them -with left wing philosophies and regimes of course being amongst the most pernicious, so not a 'left wing' view -more a traditional liberal view. Cobden & Bright etc.
    Quite. Most societies for most of history has been a governing class that have exploited and extracted from those they rule over. The great achievement of Anglic civilisation, which happened simultaneously in England, Scotland and the American colonies, was that it created a philosophy of restricted governance, strong protections for the individual, and an effective method of seeking recourse for wrongdoing by the state. What I find so appalling about the last two governments of the UK is that they are increasingly undoing that great liberal achievement, slice by slice, but in a clear and persistent manner. Once the authoritarian apparatus is in place, it's only a matter of time before a more unpleasant government abuses them.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    What on earth is "The straight choice" hinting at?

    Is she saying that Reckless is an immigrant, come to take a job off an indigenous local? Yes she is. How does that play with her friends in the local Sikh community?

    And why can't she get the basics right - For instance Rochester & Strood should be bold in the first line to correspond with London; and so on.

    Cannot understand what CCHQ are up to here. Some kitchen sink.


    You seem to have taken a rather personal dislike to Ms Tolhurst. Would have have anything to do with certain tweets she made some months prior to being selected? That she was called an anti Israeli activist by some of the Jewish press was a little ridiculous. Danny Finkelstein who is Jewish and a one nation Tory strongly criticised Israeli actions in Gaza in the Times.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    The Divisional Court (Sir Brian Leveson P, Jay & Lewis JJ) has refused permission to claim judicial review in R. (on the application of Wheeler) v Office of the Prime Minister (No.2). It seems slightly questionable that a legitimate expectation argument about the government’s decision to opt back into the European Arrest Warrant is unarguable today, given the apparent policy of the European Union Act 2011, whereas Owen J held in Wheeler (No.1) [2008] 2 CMLR 57 that a legitimate expectation point was arguable when the impugned measure had been specifically authorised by the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008. It may be that the Divisional Court conflated the consequences of granting permission (which might be relevant to interim relief) with whether the grounds were in fact arguable. We await the publication of the Divisional Court’s judgment. The challenge would failed in any event had it been granted permission, and perhaps there are more worthy causes to be tried by HM Judges.

    What Wheeler (No.2) conclusively demonstrates is that the so-called “referendum lock” championed by the Prime Minister is in fact worthless. It has repeatedly been asserted that there was a guarantee in law of a referendum when powers were passed to Luxembourg and Brussels. The government is about to agree, under article 10(5) of Protocol 36 to the Treaty on European Union, to a substantial extension of the scope of the primacy of EU law, an increase in the powers of the European Commission, and a substantial increase in the Court of Justice’s jurisdiction. The Divisional Court has held that the government may lawfully do this without even obtaining a resolution of either House of Parliament. It was not arguable that the government needed to pass an Act of Parliament, let alone hold a referendum. The “referendum lock”, then, is a fiction.

    All true, but I don't think anyone thought the "Referendum Lock" was ever meant to be taken seriously.

    This government knows it needs the votes of eurosceptics, but it's as committed to the EU as any other government has been.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Norm said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    What on earth is "The straight choice" hinting at?

    Is she saying that Reckless is an immigrant, come to take a job off an indigenous local? Yes she is. How does that play with her friends in the local Sikh community?

    And why can't she get the basics right - For instance Rochester & Strood should be bold in the first line to correspond with London; and so on.

    Cannot understand what CCHQ are up to here. Some kitchen sink.


    You seem to have taken a rather personal dislike to Ms Tolhurst. Would have have anything to do with certain tweets she made some months prior to being selected? That she was called an anti Israeli activist by some of the Jewish press was a little ridiculous. Danny Finkelstein who is Jewish and a one nation Tory strongly criticised Israeli actions in Gaza in the Times.
    ??

    Absolutely not, my name is a nod to "Moby Dick" and not an ethnic marker, and I know nothing about her tweets. I just thought she sounded rather a dud on the radio, and am perplexed as to what CCHQ are up to - I would expect them to be micro-managing her campaign down to the level of writing and designing her leaflets for her.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Tory attack leaflet in Rochester attacks Reckless as a carpetbagger with Kelly Tolhurst presented as a local girl, headline has echoes of Hughes v Tatchell
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/533324509475270656

    What on earth is "The straight choice" hinting at?

    Is she saying that Reckless is an immigrant, come to take a job off an indigenous local? Yes she is. How does that play with her friends in the local Sikh community?

    And why can't she get the basics right - For instance Rochester & Strood should be bold in the first line to correspond with London; and so on.

    Cannot understand what CCHQ are up to here. Some kitchen sink.

    Presumably they're trying to imply that Reckless is gay.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,679
    RodCrosby said:

    @Barnesian

    eh?

    'He presumably didn't need the cash himself.'

    Plausible, considering he was dead...

    :-)

    I was talking about Ed.

    The father died. His estate paid IHT in the usual way.
    Ed didn't need the cash himself so he passed it by DOV to his children. In the fullness of time they will have to pay IHT on it.
    He could have taken it and immediately gifted it to his children. If he lived 7 years he would not have to pay IHT on it. DOV was a simpler alternative.

    It's a feeble story and I'm personally going to stop giving it airtime.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Barnesian said:

    RodCrosby said:

    @Barnesian

    eh?

    'He presumably didn't need the cash himself.'

    Plausible, considering he was dead...

    :-)

    I was talking about Ed.

    The father died. His estate paid IHT in the usual way.
    Ed didn't need the cash himself so he passed it by DOV to his children. In the fullness of time they will have to pay IHT on it.
    He could have taken it and immediately gifted it to his children. If he lived 7 years he would not have to pay IHT on it. DOV was a simpler alternative.

    It's a feeble story and I'm personally going to stop giving it airtime.
    So we deduce that either -

    a) he's not financially astute
    b) he expected to die within 7 years
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    The straight choice is cue for numerous reminisces about Simon Hughes and Bermondsey 1983 campaign .
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Thinking about this story:

    ' Thirteen people have been arrested over a trafficking ring which saw a pregnant woman almost tricked into an abortion following a sham marriage.

    The 20-year-old from Slovakia was sold for up to £15,000 by a gang in Greater Manchester who organised a marriage to a man facing deportation, police said. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-30033201

    Remember the predictions of what the future of Britain would be like from the 1960s or 1970s or 1980s ? The science fiction stories of the time or the Tomorrow's World type programs.

    What they predicted was a bright, shiny Britain of growing equality. All peace and prosperity and progress.

    Instead we get parts of Britain turning into the most backward parts of the Balkans or the most lawless parts of the North West Frontier.

    Meanwhile the 1% continually increase their control of the country's wealth while the government borrows money to subsidise immigrant carwashers and sandwich makers.

    Its fashionable to sneer that some people want to turn the clock back.

    They don't.

    There are very few people nostalgic for outside toilets and yearning for the chance to swing a pick in a field or at a pitface.

    What people actually want is the future they were promised, not the future they are getting.

    People who criticise UKIP think it's a killer point to say they want to go back to the 1950s. Which was a period of rapid real wage rises, immense social mobility, probity in public life, technological innovation, and strong family units. I can think of worse periods to be alive.

  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Barnesian said:

    RodCrosby said:

    @Barnesian

    eh?

    'He presumably didn't need the cash himself.'

    Plausible, considering he was dead...

    :-)

    I was talking about Ed.

    The father died. His estate paid IHT in the usual way.
    Ed didn't need the cash himself so he passed it by DOV to his children. In the fullness of time they will have to pay IHT on it.
    He could have taken it and immediately gifted it to his children. If he lived 7 years he would not have to pay IHT on it. DOV was a simpler alternative.

    It's a feeble story and I'm personally going to stop giving it airtime.
    No, wrong - the children will have no further IHT liability.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    Sean_F said:

    Thinking about this story:

    ' Thirteen people have been arrested over a trafficking ring which saw a pregnant woman almost tricked into an abortion following a sham marriage.

    The 20-year-old from Slovakia was sold for up to £15,000 by a gang in Greater Manchester who organised a marriage to a man facing deportation, police said. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-30033201

    Remember the predictions of what the future of Britain would be like from the 1960s or 1970s or 1980s ? The science fiction stories of the time or the Tomorrow's World type programs.

    What they predicted was a bright, shiny Britain of growing equality. All peace and prosperity and progress.

    Instead we get parts of Britain turning into the most backward parts of the Balkans or the most lawless parts of the North West Frontier.

    Meanwhile the 1% continually increase their control of the country's wealth while the government borrows money to subsidise immigrant carwashers and sandwich makers.

    Its fashionable to sneer that some people want to turn the clock back.

    They don't.

    There are very few people nostalgic for outside toilets and yearning for the chance to swing a pick in a field or at a pitface.

    What people actually want is the future they were promised, not the future they are getting.

    People who criticise UKIP think it's a killer point to say they want to go back to the 1950s. Which was a period of rapid real wage rises, immense social mobility, probity in public life, technological innovation, and strong family units. I can think of worse periods to be alive.

    The later years of the 50's were characterised by Tory scandals.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Sean_F said:

    Thinking about this story:

    ' Thirteen people have been arrested over a trafficking ring which saw a pregnant woman almost tricked into an abortion following a sham marriage.

    The 20-year-old from Slovakia was sold for up to £15,000 by a gang in Greater Manchester who organised a marriage to a man facing deportation, police said. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-30033201

    Remember the predictions of what the future of Britain would be like from the 1960s or 1970s or 1980s ? The science fiction stories of the time or the Tomorrow's World type programs.

    What they predicted was a bright, shiny Britain of growing equality. All peace and prosperity and progress.

    Instead we get parts of Britain turning into the most backward parts of the Balkans or the most lawless parts of the North West Frontier.

    Meanwhile the 1% continually increase their control of the country's wealth while the government borrows money to subsidise immigrant carwashers and sandwich makers.

    Its fashionable to sneer that some people want to turn the clock back.

    They don't.

    There are very few people nostalgic for outside toilets and yearning for the chance to swing a pick in a field or at a pitface.

    What people actually want is the future they were promised, not the future they are getting.

    People who criticise UKIP think it's a killer point to say they want to go back to the 1950s. Which was a period of rapid real wage rises, immense social mobility, probity in public life, technological innovation, and strong family units. I can think of worse periods to be alive.

    Except for the confectionary, sugar, meat and petrol rationing.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited November 2014
    Piecing it together, what happened in the family Miliband was this:-

    Ralph M died in 1994, leaving everything to his wife in his will. Silly man! For he thereby lost the use of his own nil-rate IHT band [£150k in 1994]. Note there would have been no tax to pay at that point anyway, since spousal transfers are exempt. Say it was a property worth £600k. At some point in the future, assuming Mrs Miliband took no further steps to mitigate, on her death the full value including any uplift would become liable to IHT (less the nil-rate band allowance current at her death)

    The DOV was simply used so as not to waste Ralph's NRB. The DOV gave the sons 20% each of the house [40% in total, or £150k] thereby utilising the NRB. Mrs M was left with shares of the house worth 60% [say £360k] As stated above, this would be tax-neutral for the Revenue at that point in time. Still no tax due.

    The notional benefit to the family would be around £60k [40% tax on £150k] had Mrs M died shortly thereafter, (ignoring any quick-succession reliefs and property uplift) But she's still alive and well 20 years later.

    So the Miliband boys got a share of the house, which their father could have written himself into his will, had he been well advised. This of course could become subject to CGT or IHT at some later date [too complex to speculate, depending on when they sold, transferred, died and what reliefs were available depending on their personal circumstances at the time].

    The ironic thing is that the Labour government altered the rules in 2009 to allow widow/ers to make use of a spouse's unused NRB. [I personally benefited from this change after the death of my Dad last year.]

    So, had the Milibands not done a DOV in 1994, Mrs M would now have an effective NRB of £650k.[current NRB is £325k]

    Lets do the calcs, on her demise:

    Current scenario (assumed). Value of house reputedly £1.6m, of which Mrs M owns 60%, or £960k. On death (assuming no other assets), tax due is (£960k-£325k)*40% = £254k

    Had they not done the DOV, and Mrs M remained in sole possession, tax due is (£1.6m - £650k)*40% = £380k

    So a benefit of £126k, over 20 years after Ralph's death, note.

    Hardly a huge sum, and one Ralph could have saved himself if he had written his will the same way as the DOV.

    A non-story, really.

This discussion has been closed.