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  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Populus @PopulusPolls

    Latest Populus VI: Lab 35 (-1), Con 33 (-1), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (=), Oth 9 (=). Tables here: http://popu.lu/s_vi141114

    1000 sample size means a MoE of about 3%. Have LAB or CON moved outside the MoE in the last couple of months, or are we really saying its too close to call and has been for a while?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,407
    edited November 2014
    Indigo said:

    Populus @PopulusPolls

    Latest Populus VI: Lab 35 (-1), Con 33 (-1), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (=), Oth 9 (=). Tables here: http://popu.lu/s_vi141114

    1000 sample size means a MoE of about 3%. Have LAB or CON moved outside the MoE in the last couple of months, or are we really saying its too close to call and has been for a while?

    Lab and Con have very little weighting so the poll looks like a good guide to the true slight Labour lead to me.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    EdM's rhetoric is so far off the reservation, I've no idea what he's alluding to.

    I indulge in hyperbole, but he's off even my scale of poetic licence usage.
    taffys said:

    ''His main gripe is that he thinks Ukip have stolen his clothes. But they're stigmatising potential Labour voters and not Tory ones.''

    Ed's speech shows when he looks at Britain he sees some kind of capitalist North Korea, some kind of Orwellian nightmare.

    Of course there are injustices here, just as there are in every country. But deeply unequal, deeply unjust.......??

    compared to where....?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,407
    Norm said:

    Populus @PopulusPolls

    Latest Populus VI: Lab 35 (-1), Con 33 (-1), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (=), Oth 9 (=). Tables here: http://popu.lu/s_vi141114

    Populus seem to be currently the best polling organisation for Labour (and the worst for Ukip)
    The tables flag up Labour's big big 5/10 VI problem though.

    A 5/10 Labour voter is probably in reality a 15 or so % chance to actually head out on the day. Perhaps less.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Hasn't Newham been improved by the Olympic Park, Excel, Westfield, etc?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    1000 sample size means a MoE of about 3%.

    A score of 35 for labour should surely make R&S a three-way marginal at least.

    And yet it won;t be. Not even close. No even close to close.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'd offer up Colindale as another in the ShitHole Premier League.

    I presume Stratford is better than it was - it'd be hard to be worse. Oh and bits of Gateshead. I don't scare easy but those places were threatening without even trying.
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    isam said:

    Plato said:

    Yup.

    CD13 said:


    Ed accuses Ukip of being a divisive force - he wouldn't like to live in a UK like that. Setting one section of society against another.

    Yet, as far as I can see, nearly all his policies are based on an "us and them" theme. "They're all out to get you."

    The fat cats aren't paying their tax, the energy companies are robbing you blind, they're making society more unequal, hard-working families are being taken advantage of by the elite. Vote Labour to sort the bastards out.

    His main gripe is that he thinks Ukip have stolen his clothes. But they're stigmatising potential Labour voters and not Tory ones.

    "Hi Samuel, the UKIP hustings for the ward of East Ham are to be held...."

    "Constituency profile[edit]

    Comprising the eastern part of the London Borough of Newham, East Ham is, as at 2010, the safest Labour seat in London and sixth safest in the country. Every component ward has only Labour councillors (resulting from local elections), and their general election candidates have achieved an absolute majority on all four elections against a wide assortment of political parties at each election.

    The constituency has the largest proportion of non-white people in the UK; Greater London's highest proportion of British Asian, many of whom are Muslims live in the seat. In the London Borough of Newham 43.5% of people are British Asian in 2011.[n 4]

    The constituency takes in several run-down, deprived, lower working class areas with low incomes and high unemployment that in 2000 ranked high in the Index of Multiple Deprivation[2] including Beckton, Silvertown and East Ham itself. London City Airport is in the seat, as are the former Royal Docks where modern luxury housing is springing up.

    Around two thirds of constituents are non-white, and more than 40% of the population are immigrants to the UK."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Ham_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

    #OneNation
    Newham is a complete and utter s***hole.
    Yes

    & Havering council is merging with it... and our hospitals have been closed so Newham residents can live in the houses built on them

    That's gone down well here
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366

    Mr Socrates,

    Yes, it would be nice if people were treated the same irrespective of skin colour. But choices have been made. There aren't many smugglers in South Yorkshire but as Kipling said.

    "Them that asks no questions they isn't told a lie,
    Watch the wall, my darling, while the Gentlemen of Pakistani heritage go by."

    It's only a tiny minority but the Pakistani heritage community are more likely to admit it and face up to it than the London elite.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:



    Newham is a complete and utter s***hole.

    Isn't the place economically benefitting from having had so much more immigration than the rest of the country?
    I think those hardcore Labour voters will find themselves being eased out of East Ham as the "modern, luxury housing" springs up
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054
    PAW said:

    Surely the thing to do is request extradition of the Italian involved, if that is refused it gives a card to May.

    The alleged rape was committed in Italy, what jurisdiction would the Home Office have? No, what we need is a proper extradition process that protects British citizens from the often corrupt and incompetent justice systems on the continent.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Pulpstar said:

    Populus @PopulusPolls

    Latest Populus VI: Lab 35 (-1), Con 33 (-1), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (=), Oth 9 (=). Tables here: http://popu.lu/s_vi141114

    Con/Lab/LD all too high, UKIP too low.
    It's the weighting. Most polling companies have very little difference in weighting. With Populus it downweights UKIP by about 40%.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Now that is hyperbole. Perfect.

    Mr. Tokyo, it was weasellier than the harem of the Lord High Weasel during the orgy to celebrate Weaselmas.

    It was deceit, plain and simple.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    AndyJS said:

    Hasn't Newham been improved by the Olympic Park, Excel, Westfield, etc?

    Yes, but I doubt the people who live there now will be there to appreciate it
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,407
    weejonnie said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Populus @PopulusPolls

    Latest Populus VI: Lab 35 (-1), Con 33 (-1), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (=), Oth 9 (=). Tables here: http://popu.lu/s_vi141114

    Con/Lab/LD all too high, UKIP too low.
    It's the weighting. Most polling companies have very little difference in weighting. With Populus it downweights UKIP by about 40%.
    Check your vanilla inbox
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    EdM's rhetoric is so far off the reservation, I've no idea what he's alluding to.

    Was his story about rich people paying zero tax a reference to intellectual Marxists and their Inheritance tax arrangements?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Plato said:

    I presume Stratford is better than it was

    Newham is a sandwich.

    At the top, between Bow Church and Stratford, are block after block of new luxury apartments. At the bottom they've tried to replicate Docklands.

    The bit in between is a mixture of old terraces and council estates.

    When people run it down, they're really running down the people who live in it.

    The actual housing is just lots of old terraces, very similar to places that are now deemed trendy in places like Stoke Newington and Crouch End.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Hmm.. Shadsy has UKIP out to 1/25 (from1/33) Con in to 10/1(from 14/1), not really significant moves but maybe a delayed effect of Mike's blog yesterday (ie caused by some punters swayed by his opinion)?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm a Tory who went Red Team with Tony - because I could afford to. It made me feel smug. And the Tories were lost in the wilderness.

    I think this is quite significant in terms of behaviour - like luvvies, but with less self-delusion. I know I'm stroking my ego.
    Sean_F said:

    Norm said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Well I agree with most of Tim Montgomerie's comments, but his final thought

    Eeesh, what a numpty, from IDS's former Chief of Staff

    Ten reasons why I won’t be joining UKIP

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2014/11/ten-reasons-why-i-wont-be-joining-ukip.html

    He helpfully omits the polling that shows Cam more popular than the party. Tim is deep in the bubble.
    The most fascinating thing about that, Montie tweeted it, and Douglas Carswell replied with

    Douglas Carswell MP @DouglasCarswell

    @montie @ConHome a thoughtful piece, Tim. As always. Much to mull over


    Is he thinking of re ratting?
    Not until next March, when his re-ratting would cause maximum damage ahead of the election. "I have now had six months to see UKIP from the inside. I had thought they were well intentioned people, with an alternative vision for Britain. I was very wrong on both counts...."
    Obviously were he to do that, he would be a patriotic principled chap worthy of praise.
    I second that emotion
    There's alot of wishful thinking on this site sometimes.
    Understatement of the century!!!

    If UKIP can't even get the founder of UKIPhome to join them then really, they must be toxic.
    Yup, the polling backs that up.

    UKIP are the most extreme, least fit to govern party with candidates more likely to hold racist/offensive views
    Yougov

    ABC1 (C2DE) Voting intentions

    TORIES 35% (29%)
    LABOUR 33% (37%)
    UKIP 12% (20%)
    LIBDEMS 9% (6%)
    GREENS 7% (4%)
    SNP / PC 4% (4%)


    The biggest change over the last 40 years has been the sheer number of AB & C1s switching from Tory to Labour. I recall an episode of Rumpole of the Bailey many years ago when a very posh lawyer was asked which party he would be standing for in the election and when he replied "Labour naturally" this was an unusual enough TV moment to be remarked on the following day.
    There's a gulf in middle class attitudes now between somewhere like Hertsmere and Inner London.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    TOPPING said:

    Patrick said:

    This Fraser Nelson article in the Telegraph nicely sums up Ed's weakness - he can point to problems but offers no solutions:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11229342/Ed-Miliband-sounds-good-but-lacks-substance-and-show.html

    Trying to pick up some NOTA/all gone to hell in a handbasket votes?

    Curious if so. Also, I read his speech as being as damning about New Labour as about the Cons.

    "These are the symptoms of a deeply unequal, deeply unfair, deeply unjust country."

    etc, in the same vein...

    ...is surely an indictment of the past 20+ years of government?
    A government that he, Ed Balls, Harriet Harman etal were all willing participants in.

    But we are to believe that this time they really mean it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @FraserNelson: Scotland’s Neverendum begins - and there’s nothing Unionists can do to stop it | @AlexMassie on fine form: http://t.co/XJGa17WKLy
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2014
    taffys said:

    ''it's appalling that Theresa May has wiped away this suspect's traditional British protections.''

    Theresa May is the epitome of the 'anything to stay in office' modern politician. Zero conviction. Zero core beliefs.

    What a spectacularly silly remark.

    How, exactly, is she supposed to have done 'anything to stay in office'? Haven't you noticed that she has done some things unpopular within her party?

    Her core beliefs are very clear, and very simple: the traditional Conservative ones of pragmatism and especially of being reasonably tough on criminals, whilst being respectful of civil liberties. In the particular case of the EAW, she has made very substantial improvements to protect British citizens, and concluded that on balance it is best to opt back in, now those protections are in place. That's a very reasonable position, given that there doesn't seem to be any obvious alternative.

    You might disagree with her, but your remark is absurd.

    More generally, whenever anyone says 'X has no core beliefs', what they invariably mean is at best, that they disagree with their core beliefs, and more often simply that they support a different political party.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014

    Hmm.. Shadsy has UKIP out to 1/25 (from1/33) Con in to 10/1(from 14/1), not really significant moves but maybe a delayed effect of Mike's blog yesterday (ie caused by some punters swayed by his opinion)?

    Unlikely.. The Conservatives have just traded at their biggest price yet on Betfair (21), and the front page of The Express was probably seen by more people than PB, and that was about Coral paying out on UKIP already

    Funny that a story about betting on politics makes the front page of a national newspaper, and isn't mentioned on here!
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Scott_P said:

    @FraserNelson: Scotland’s Neverendum begins - and there’s nothing Unionists can do to stop it | @AlexMassie on fine form: http://t.co/XJGa17WKLy

    Unlike that dire article from Mr Cohen a couple of days ago, I had to take a second look at the front cover to check I wasnt reading The Staggers. http://goo.gl/ljE0ho
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    @NickPalmer‌ I'm still keen to know your views on IHT.

    Is it a tax that has been deliberately engineered by government to allow people with the know how, or the means to afford someone else with the know how, to completely avoid paying it?

    If so, why does it exist at all? That would clearly be unfair on those without the means or the know how.

    If not, and the ways of getting around it are accidental loopholes, will you criticise the Milibands for what you surely must regard as action as morally reprehensible as the legal corporate tax avoidance that you're seemingly keen to publicly condemn?

    Or do you have to try to find a third way to explain this, saving you the bother of sticking to your principles without criticising Miliband?

    I think that IHT should be made as effective as possible - I paid a large chunk on my mum's estate and thought it quite painless (the windfall was welcome anyway). I know the practical difficulties, though. As for your query, I try not to comment on anyone's private affairs, especially when I don't know the details, such as the arrangements of Mr Miliband senior's estate N years ago.
    Just one more, hypothetical, question on this; if it were to become public knowledge that the Milibands did dodge IHT through a deed of variation (I'm no expert on IHT avoidance but I believe this is what's alleged), would you be prepared to then criticise him?

    And please don't hide behind that "private affairs" shield again. The man wants to be PM and is already bashing companies for legally avoiding tax. And, hypothetically, it's already public.
  • Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:



    Newham is a complete and utter s***hole.

    Isn't the place economically benefitting from having had so much more immigration than the rest of the country?
    From Wikipedia:
    "According to Plato's Apology, Socrates' life as the "gadfly" of Athens began when his friend Chaerephon asked the oracle at Delphi if anyone were wiser than Socrates; the Oracle responded that no-one was wiser. Socrates believed the Oracle's response was a paradox, because he believed he possessed no wisdom whatsoever. He proceeded to test the riddle by approaching men considered wise by the people of Athens—statesmen, poets, and artisans—in order to refute the Oracle's pronouncement. Questioning them, however, Socrates concluded: while each man thought he knew a great deal and was wise, in fact they knew very little and were not wise at all. Socrates realized the Oracle was correct; while so-called wise men thought themselves wise and yet were not, he himself knew he was not wise at all, which, paradoxically, made him the wiser one since he was the only person aware of his own ignorance. "
    Also " Socrates appears to have been a critic of democracy" but "Socrates' opposition to democracy is often denied"
    So now we know.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    In the particular case of the EAW, she has made very substantial improvements to protect British citizens, and concluded that on balance it is best to opt back in, now those protections are in place.

    Except the protections are worthless because they will be adjudicated on by the ECJ which does not follow our reasoning. See Mr Hannan here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqGUHeaRa2Q
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    *cackles*
    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    EdM's rhetoric is so far off the reservation, I've no idea what he's alluding to.

    Was his story about rich people paying zero tax a reference to intellectual Marxists and their Inheritance tax arrangements?
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    isam said:

    Hmm.. Shadsy has UKIP out to 1/25 (from1/33) Con in to 10/1(from 14/1), not really significant moves but maybe a delayed effect of Mike's blog yesterday (ie caused by some punters swayed by his opinion)?

    Unlikely.. The Conservatives have just traded at their biggest price yet on Betfair (21), and the front page of The Express was probably seen by more people than PB, and that was about Coral paying out on UKIP already

    Funny that a story about betting on politics makes the front page of a national newspaper, and isn't mentioned on here!
    I didn't see the Express story, what was it?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    taffys said:

    ''it's appalling that Theresa May has wiped away this suspect's traditional British protections.''

    Theresa May is the epitome of the 'anything to stay in office' modern politician. Zero conviction. Zero core beliefs.

    What a spectacularly silly remark.

    How, exactly, is she supposed to have done 'anything to stay in office'? Haven't you noticed that she has done some things unpopular within her party?

    Her core beliefs are very clear, and very simple: the traditional Conservative ones of pragmatism and especially of being reasonably tough on criminals, whilst being respectful of civil liberties. In the particular case of the EAW, she has made very substantial improvements to protect British citizens, and concluded that on balance it is best to opt back in, now those protections are in place. That's a very reasonable position, given that there doesn't seem to be any obvious alternative.

    You might disagree with her, but your remark is absurd.

    More generally, whenever anyone says 'X has no core beliefs', what they invariably mean is at best, that they disagree with their core beliefs, and more often simply that they support a different political party.
    What are the projections does this young woman have from the Italian justice system?

    Presumably that should those "substantial improvement" put in place on the EAW be struck down by European courts, Theresa May will opt us out again?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That's encouraging. I come from an area where broken glass cemented on top of walls was de rigure. And the birth of Ram Raids as evolutionary progress.
    chestnut said:

    Plato said:

    I presume Stratford is better than it was

    Newham is a sandwich.

    At the top, between Bow Church and Stratford, are block after block of new luxury apartments. At the bottom they've tried to replicate Docklands.

    The bit in between is a mixture of old terraces and council estates.

    When people run it down, they're really running down the people who live in it.

    The actual housing is just lots of old terraces, very similar to places that are now deemed trendy in places like Stoke Newington and Crouch End.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses_ said:

    Indigo said:

    Socrates said:
    He is for "big ideas", yet his platform is full of minor policies (like scrapping the bedroom tax), or aims without mechanics behind them (like a jobs guarantee or 100% renewables) that clearly won't happen. The one big policy with an actual mechanism - capping retail price rises - now won't have too much of an effect due to the huge fall in wholesale prices. Thank God.
    Well quite. That's because he has a few ideas, but not vision. He doesnt know what he actually wants to do with the country, and doesnt have the faintest idea how he will get there., the next paragraph of that article is even more damning
    Mr Miliband said his principal task was to change the country. But change it from what, and to what exactly? After all, his party was in government for 13 years until 2010. What we are today is as much Labour’s responsibility as anyone else’s. Were there not bankers before 2010 earning big bonuses? Were there not people avoiding taxes? What did the Labour government, of which Mr Miliband was a leading figure, do about that?

    He lamented our unequal society; and yet inequality grew under the Labour government and the “privileged few” thrived. Indeed, the rich were taxed at a lower rate than they are now. The greatest scandals in the NHS happened on their watch. Immigration became an issue under Labour. This attempt by Mr Miliband to turn 2010 into Year Zero and disavow all responsibility for what went before simply does not wash.
    This is what they always do. They turned 1979 into year zero and all the ills of the country and the planet were laid at the Tories door within 3 months of the election. They did the same in 2010.

    The abject failure to actually do anything constructive or useful is equally matched by their ability to blame everyone or anyone else but themselves for the state in which they always leave the country.
    How does this differ from the Conservatives? The article's analysis is a rather boorish one: essentially asking the rhetorical question, if the Labour/Conservative Party manifesto is any good, why were the policies not enacted by Cameron/Brown/Blair/Major/Thatcher?


    Eds first comment on his blank sheet is to repair the damage done by the Tories completing forgetting that everything they doomongered about never happened and failing to apologies for the the Labour years.

    Spectacular epic fail. As was said earlier thick on the ground with sound bites but no solutions except the other lot is wot dunnit, " when it was actually Labour all along. "
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Socrates said:

    taffys said:

    ''it's appalling that Theresa May has wiped away this suspect's traditional British protections.''

    Theresa May is the epitome of the 'anything to stay in office' modern politician. Zero conviction. Zero core beliefs.

    What a spectacularly silly remark.

    How, exactly, is she supposed to have done 'anything to stay in office'? Haven't you noticed that she has done some things unpopular within her party?

    Her core beliefs are very clear, and very simple: the traditional Conservative ones of pragmatism and especially of being reasonably tough on criminals, whilst being respectful of civil liberties. In the particular case of the EAW, she has made very substantial improvements to protect British citizens, and concluded that on balance it is best to opt back in, now those protections are in place. That's a very reasonable position, given that there doesn't seem to be any obvious alternative.

    You might disagree with her, but your remark is absurd.

    More generally, whenever anyone says 'X has no core beliefs', what they invariably mean is at best, that they disagree with their core beliefs, and more often simply that they support a different political party.
    What are the projections does this young woman have from the Italian justice system?

    Presumably that should those "substantial improvement" put in place on the EAW be struck down by European courts, Theresa May will opt us out again?
    That's no longer an option. Once in, trapped.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,407
    isam said:

    Hmm.. Shadsy has UKIP out to 1/25 (from1/33) Con in to 10/1(from 14/1), not really significant moves but maybe a delayed effect of Mike's blog yesterday (ie caused by some punters swayed by his opinion)?

    Unlikely.. The Conservatives have just traded at their biggest price yet on Betfair (21), and the front page of The Express was probably seen by more people than PB, and that was about Coral paying out on UKIP already

    Funny that a story about betting on politics makes the front page of a national newspaper, and isn't mentioned on here!
    Still time to rescue 4 pennies in the pound for Scrapheap.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Mention earlier of PB's most famous pair of red shoes had me wondering whether OGH had borrowed them whilst wandering up the yellow peril brick road to find the Wizard of Ashcroft playing with his organ and spewing out polls.

    Nominations for other roles :

    Red Slippers - TSE
    Dorothy - Mike Smithson
    Cowardly Lion (Looking for courage and friend of Dorothy) - Ed Miliband
    Tin Man - (Seeks a brain) - Ed Balls
    Scarecrow - (Searching for a heart) - George Osborne
    Toto - (Scruffy Dog) - Robert Smithson
    Wicked Witch of the West - Margaret Beckett
    Glenda the Good Witch - Theresa May
    The Tornado - Bedford Gays
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    http://www.dw.de/libya-is-on-the-verge-of-collapse/a-18061835

    Libya goes from strength to strength since Cameron decided to illegally invade the country.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    isam said:

    CD13 said:


    Ed accuses Ukip of being a divisive force - he wouldn't like to live in a UK like that. Setting one section of society against another.

    Yet, as far as I can see, nearly all his policies are based on an "us and them" theme. "They're all out to get you."

    The fat cats aren't paying their tax, the energy companies are robbing you blind, they're making society more unequal, hard-working families are being taken advantage of by the elite. Vote Labour to sort the bastards out.

    His main gripe is that he thinks Ukip have stolen his clothes. But they're stigmatising potential Labour voters and not Tory ones.

    Yeah Righto Ed

    Look at the places where Labour are strong... The muslim caliphates of East London, and South Yorkshire...

    What lovely examples of a United britain
    If Gilligan was accurate yesterday Ken Livingstone apart from being a massive bell end must be close to causing incitement?

    How depressingly familiar was the line of defence put forward by Rahman - your all being beastly racists.......
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014

    isam said:

    Hmm.. Shadsy has UKIP out to 1/25 (from1/33) Con in to 10/1(from 14/1), not really significant moves but maybe a delayed effect of Mike's blog yesterday (ie caused by some punters swayed by his opinion)?

    Unlikely.. The Conservatives have just traded at their biggest price yet on Betfair (21), and the front page of The Express was probably seen by more people than PB, and that was about Coral paying out on UKIP already

    Funny that a story about betting on politics makes the front page of a national newspaper, and isn't mentioned on here!
    I didn't see the Express story, what was it?
    Yesterdays front page

    Ukip on the way to election VICTORY: Bookies already paying out on Rochester win

    "Bookies are so sure they are already paying out to punters who backed its candidate in Rochester and Strood.

    A Ukip spokesman said the expected by-election win would confound those who said a vote for the party was wasted. It would prove instead that “if you vote Ukip, you get Ukip”.

    The odds for a win for Mark Reckless, the party’s candidate, were 1-25 yesterday. David Stevens, of Coral, said last night: “As far as we’re concerned, this contest is over, so anyone who has backed Ukip can go and collect and begin the celebrations now.”"

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/534791/Bookies-make-Ukip-certain-win-Rochester-and-Strood-by-election

    Incredible it wasn't the lead story on here. Has there ever been a more apt front page of a national for the site?...

    Why could that be????
  • shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    Well done to Corals for paying out early on UKIP and their PR team must be delighted to get it on the front page of a national paper.
    There's less than a 10% chance it will cost them any money, and I don't suppose they took very much in the first place. Excellent value for them.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    FalseFlag said:

    http://www.dw.de/libya-is-on-the-verge-of-collapse/a-18061835

    Libya goes from strength to strength since Cameron decided to illegally invade the country.

    Why is everything that happens in countries like Libya the fault of the West? Can't they take responsibility for themselves for a change?
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    AndyJS said:

    FalseFlag said:

    http://www.dw.de/libya-is-on-the-verge-of-collapse/a-18061835

    Libya goes from strength to strength since Cameron decided to illegally invade the country.

    Why is everything that happens in countries like Libya the fault of the West? Can't they take responsibility for themselves for a change?
    Perhaps because so many problems are caused by Western intervention.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: Dark forces are out to get Ed Miliband. He hasn't seen them. But he's heard them > Telegraph > http://t.co/Fs0rvUp2uE
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014
    Plato said:

    That's encouraging. I come from an area where broken glass cemented on top of walls was de rigure. And the birth of Ram Raids as evolutionary progress.

    chestnut said:

    Plato said:

    I presume Stratford is better than it was

    Newham is a sandwich.

    At the top, between Bow Church and Stratford, are block after block of new luxury apartments. At the bottom they've tried to replicate Docklands.

    The bit in between is a mixture of old terraces and council estates.

    When people run it down, they're really running down the people who live in it.

    The actual housing is just lots of old terraces, very similar to places that are now deemed trendy in places like Stoke Newington and Crouch End.
    Its not really encouraging... the people who call it home will be shunted out as the local authorities sell the new homes to rich outsiders and build social housing on the outskirts of London to house those who are priced out/in social housing

    Newham will become as segregated as Tower Hamlets, with fabulously wealthy people living on one side and very poor people living on the other.. divided by wealth, colour, religion and language

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    If only there were characters named as isam or BannedInParis or malcolmg...

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:



    Newham is a complete and utter s***hole.

    Isn't the place economically benefitting from having had so much more immigration than the rest of the country?
    From Wikipedia:
    "According to Plato's Apology, Socrates' life as the "gadfly" of Athens began when his friend Chaerephon asked the oracle at Delphi if anyone were wiser than Socrates; the Oracle responded that no-one was wiser. Socrates believed the Oracle's response was a paradox, because he believed he possessed no wisdom whatsoever. He proceeded to test the riddle by approaching men considered wise by the people of Athens—statesmen, poets, and artisans—in order to refute the Oracle's pronouncement. Questioning them, however, Socrates concluded: while each man thought he knew a great deal and was wise, in fact they knew very little and were not wise at all. Socrates realized the Oracle was correct; while so-called wise men thought themselves wise and yet were not, he himself knew he was not wise at all, which, paradoxically, made him the wiser one since he was the only person aware of his own ignorance. "
    Also " Socrates appears to have been a critic of democracy" but "Socrates' opposition to democracy is often denied"
    So now we know.
  • Socrates said:

    What are the projections does this young woman have from the Italian justice system?

    Presumably that should those "substantial improvement" put in place on the EAW be struck down by European courts, Theresa May will opt us out again?

    I haven't made any comment on the case. I don't know anything much about it. There doesn't actually seem to have been any extradition request, as far as I can see. In fact it's not clear whether she is being accused of anything.

    Presumably, though, under any extradition arrangement someone accused of the extremely serious offence of a false rape allegation could be extradited. Are you suggesting we shouldn't have an extradition arrangment with Italy?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Mr. Tokyo, Labour also campaigned for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and then just didn't hold one.

    Indeed more a promise than the Tories one ever was but still.

    The EU loves plebiscites as well. They just keep holding them until they get the correct answer they wanted in the first place.

  • The fall in support for the two big parties means more seats will be marginal than for many years.

    However, expect the smaller parties to get squeezed as we get closer to the general election.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Hmm.. Shadsy has UKIP out to 1/25 (from1/33) Con in to 10/1(from 14/1), not really significant moves but maybe a delayed effect of Mike's blog yesterday (ie caused by some punters swayed by his opinion)?

    Unlikely.. The Conservatives have just traded at their biggest price yet on Betfair (21), and the front page of The Express was probably seen by more people than PB, and that was about Coral paying out on UKIP already

    Funny that a story about betting on politics makes the front page of a national newspaper, and isn't mentioned on here!
    I didn't see the Express story, what was it?
    Yesterdays front page

    Ukip on the way to election VICTORY: Bookies already paying out on Rochester win

    "Bookies are so sure they are already paying out to punters who backed its candidate in Rochester and Strood.

    A Ukip spokesman said the expected by-election win would confound those who said a vote for the party was wasted. It would prove instead that “if you vote Ukip, you get Ukip”.

    The odds for a win for Mark Reckless, the party’s candidate, were 1-25 yesterday. David Stevens, of Coral, said last night: “As far as we’re concerned, this contest is over, so anyone who has backed Ukip can go and collect and begin the celebrations now.”"

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/534791/Bookies-make-Ukip-certain-win-Rochester-and-Strood-by-election

    Incredible it wasn't the lead story on here. Has there ever been a more apt front page of a national for the site?...

    Why could that be????
    No doubt to save him the shame of having to congratulate you! But I really don't know why :)

    But how would that explain UKIP drifting a little with ladbrokes?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It's interesting how well UKIP are doing in London, all things considered.

    For example, Ashcroft polling had the party on 19% in Croydon Central, a crucial Con/Lab marginal with a 40-45% ethnic minority population.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,407
    isam said:

    CD13 said:


    Ed accuses Ukip of being a divisive force - he wouldn't like to live in a UK like that. Setting one section of society against another.

    Yet, as far as I can see, nearly all his policies are based on an "us and them" theme. "They're all out to get you."

    The fat cats aren't paying their tax, the energy companies are robbing you blind, they're making society more unequal, hard-working families are being taken advantage of by the elite. Vote Labour to sort the bastards out.

    His main gripe is that he thinks Ukip have stolen his clothes. But they're stigmatising potential Labour voters and not Tory ones.

    Yeah Righto Ed

    Look at the places where Labour are strong... The muslim caliphates of East London, and South Yorkshire...

    What lovely examples of a United britain
    UKIP are slightly stronger in the Sheffield Caliphates:

    https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/your-city-council/elections/election-results/2014/burngreave.html

    https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/your-city-council/elections/election-results/2014/darnall.html

    vs

    http://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/Services/Election-results.aspx
  • RobCRobC Posts: 398
    isam said:

    Hmm.. Shadsy has UKIP out to 1/25 (from1/33) Con in to 10/1(from 14/1), not really significant moves but maybe a delayed effect of Mike's blog yesterday (ie caused by some punters swayed by his opinion)?

    Unlikely.. The Conservatives have just traded at their biggest price yet on Betfair (21), and the front page of The Express was probably seen by more people than PB, and that was about Coral paying out on UKIP already

    Funny that a story about betting on politics makes the front page of a national newspaper, and isn't mentioned on here!
    Isn't the Daily Excess the Kippers own house paper these days with a penchant for scaring its dimishing elderly readership with bloodcurdling stories about impending artic blasts (that never materialise) and other ludicrous hyberbole?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Now that is knightly. Noblesse oblige.
    shadsy said:

    Well done to Corals for paying out early on UKIP and their PR team must be delighted to get it on the front page of a national paper.
    There's less than a 10% chance it will cost them any money, and I don't suppose they took very much in the first place. Excellent value for them.

  • RobC said:

    Isn't the Daily Excess the Kippers own house paper these days with a penchant for scaring its dimishing elderly readership with bloodcurdling stories about impending artic blasts (that never materialise) and other ludicrous hyberbole?

    To be fair, their bloodcurdling warnings about the weather last Christmas turned out to be pretty accurate!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    When you take a ride on the DLR from Bank to Canary Wharf, perhaps the defining feature is the absolute lack of middle-of-the-road residential properties. All you see are luxury apartments and run-down 1960s tenements. A slight exaggeration, but not much.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054

    Socrates said:

    What are the projections does this young woman have from the Italian justice system?

    Presumably that should those "substantial improvement" put in place on the EAW be struck down by European courts, Theresa May will opt us out again?

    I haven't made any comment on the case. I don't know anything much about it. There doesn't actually seem to have been any extradition request, as far as I can see. In fact it's not clear whether she is being accused of anything.

    Presumably, though, under any extradition arrangement someone accused of the extremely serious offence of a false rape allegation could be extradited. Are you suggesting we shouldn't have an extradition arrangment with Italy?
    No one is suggesting that, but under the EAW the extradition is immediate and without legal recourse, under the regular arrangement there would be a hearing to see whether the extradition is warranted and whether the allegations have any foundation, in a trustworthy British court, not a dodgy Italian one who seem to relish making scapegoats out of foreigners.

    Your support of the EAW is absolutely disgusting and snivelling Richard, just like your support of the snoopers charter. The Tories are on the wrong side of both arguments here. British citizens need protection from the power of the executive, especially those in foreign countries who have little to no regard for the rule of law.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Hmm.. Shadsy has UKIP out to 1/25 (from1/33) Con in to 10/1(from 14/1), not really significant moves but maybe a delayed effect of Mike's blog yesterday (ie caused by some punters swayed by his opinion)?

    Unlikely.. The Conservatives have just traded at their biggest price yet on Betfair (21), and the front page of The Express was probably seen by more people than PB, and that was about Coral paying out on UKIP already

    Funny that a story about betting on politics makes the front page of a national newspaper, and isn't mentioned on here!
    I didn't see the Express story, what was it?
    Yesterdays front page

    Ukip on the way to election VICTORY: Bookies already paying out on Rochester win

    "Bookies are so sure they are already paying out to punters who backed its candidate in Rochester and Strood.

    A Ukip spokesman said the expected by-election win would confound those who said a vote for the party was wasted. It would prove instead that “if you vote Ukip, you get Ukip”.

    The odds for a win for Mark Reckless, the party’s candidate, were 1-25 yesterday. David Stevens, of Coral, said last night: “As far as we’re concerned, this contest is over, so anyone who has backed Ukip can go and collect and begin the celebrations now.”"

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/534791/Bookies-make-Ukip-certain-win-Rochester-and-Strood-by-election

    Incredible it wasn't the lead story on here. Has there ever been a more apt front page of a national for the site?...

    Why could that be????

    It will be headlined on politicalbetting.com if Reckless loses.

    Dog bites man - not news. Man bites dog - newsworthy.
  • shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    @isam
    Mike can explain why he didn't splash with the Corals early payout if he wants, but I can take a guess.

    He knows a lot more about political betting than the hacks at the Express and he can recognise this as a fairly meaningless PR stunt. Especially as Corals is hardly anyone's go-to place for politics betting and they have probably taken peanuts on it.

    I think Betfair's sportsbook did the same thing for the Scottish Referendum for NO backers a couple of days early. That almost certainly carried a lot more risk.


  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Oh, I'm a glass-half-full sort. Some will be priced out victims, the rest will be motivated to be bigger.

    I do Big. And play Victim & Abuser a lot. It's not pretty, but brutally honest, rather than self-deceiving.
    isam said:

    Plato said:

    That's encouraging. I come from an area where broken glass cemented on top of walls was de rigure. And the birth of Ram Raids as evolutionary progress.

    chestnut said:

    Plato said:

    I presume Stratford is better than it was

    Newham is a sandwich.

    At the top, between Bow Church and Stratford, are block after block of new luxury apartments. At the bottom they've tried to replicate Docklands.

    The bit in between is a mixture of old terraces and council estates.

    When people run it down, they're really running down the people who live in it.

    The actual housing is just lots of old terraces, very similar to places that are now deemed trendy in places like Stoke Newington and Crouch End.
    Its not really encouraging... the people who call it home will be shunted out as the local authorities sell the new homes to rich outsiders and build social housing on the outskirts of London to house those who are priced out/in social housing

    Newham will become as segregated as Tower Hamlets, with fabulously wealthy people living on one side and very poor people living on the other.. divided by wealth, colour, religion and language

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2014
    shadsy said:

    @isam
    Mike can explain why he didn't splash with the Corals early payout if he wants, but I can take a guess.

    He knows a lot more about political betting than the hacks at the Express and he can recognise this as a fairly meaningless PR stunt. Especially as Corals is hardly anyone's go-to place for politics betting and they have probably taken peanuts on it.

    I think Betfair's sportsbook did the same thing for the Scottish Referendum for NO backers a couple of days early. That almost certainly carried a lot more risk.


    I'd take a guess that it was because Mike advised backing the Tories on several occasions, and had it been the Tories that were being paid out a week early, that would have been the story on PB

    You're a nice guy and all that, but you don't exactly take a massive bet on politics at Ladbrokes.. my shop wouldn't lay more than £60 on a 5/6 shot
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Plato said:

    Oh, I'm a glass-half-full sort. Some will be priced out victims, the rest will be motivated to be bigger.

    I do Big. And play Victim & Abuser a lot. It's not pretty, but brutally honest, rather than self-deceiving.

    isam said:

    Plato said:

    That's encouraging. I come from an area where broken glass cemented on top of walls was de rigure. And the birth of Ram Raids as evolutionary progress.

    chestnut said:

    Plato said:

    I presume Stratford is better than it was

    Newham is a sandwich.

    At the top, between Bow Church and Stratford, are block after block of new luxury apartments. At the bottom they've tried to replicate Docklands.

    The bit in between is a mixture of old terraces and council estates.

    When people run it down, they're really running down the people who live in it.

    The actual housing is just lots of old terraces, very similar to places that are now deemed trendy in places like Stoke Newington and Crouch End.
    Its not really encouraging... the people who call it home will be shunted out as the local authorities sell the new homes to rich outsiders and build social housing on the outskirts of London to house those who are priced out/in social housing

    Newham will become as segregated as Tower Hamlets, with fabulously wealthy people living on one side and very poor people living on the other.. divided by wealth, colour, religion and language

    You've lost me there I am afriad
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2014
    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    What are the projections does this young woman have from the Italian justice system?

    Presumably that should those "substantial improvement" put in place on the EAW be struck down by European courts, Theresa May will opt us out again?

    I haven't made any comment on the case. I don't know anything much about it. There doesn't actually seem to have been any extradition request, as far as I can see. In fact it's not clear whether she is being accused of anything.

    Presumably, though, under any extradition arrangement someone accused of the extremely serious offence of a false rape allegation could be extradited. Are you suggesting we shouldn't have an extradition arrangment with Italy?
    No one is suggesting that, but under the EAW the extradition is immediate and without legal recourse, under the regular arrangement there would be a hearing to see whether the extradition is warranted and whether the allegations have any foundation, in a trustworthy British court, not a dodgy Italian one who seem to relish making scapegoats out of foreigners.

    Your support of the EAW is absolutely disgusting and snivelling Richard, just like your support of the snoopers charter. The Tories are on the wrong side of both arguments here. British citizens need protection from the power of the executive, especially those in foreign countries who have little to no regard for the rule of law.
    Sigh...

    I sometimes wonder why I bother to write sensible comments. Any nuance is invariably lost.

    One more try.

    I DO NOT SUPPORT THE EAW.

    Got that? Is that clear enough for you?

    Now can you get to the next stage of the argument, which is: what do we do about it, starting from where we started?

    Clearly we can't redesign the EAW from scratch - the time to get it right was before it was set up. Too late now; it's in place.

    So there were only three options facing Theresa May, none of them ideal.

    1) Opt back in with no changes at all.
    2) Make some changes to ameliorate the EAW, and opt back in.
    3) Opt out completely, leaving no effective extradition arrangements in place with 26 neighbouring countries, all of which have free movement of people with us.

    Of the three options, Theresa May concluded that number 2 is the least bad, and, remarkably, she seems to have made some very significant improvements. Her Telegraph article of a few days ago was a very succinct summary of the arguments.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11216589/Theresa-May-Fight-Europe-by-all-means-but-not-over-this-Arrest-Warrant.html

    Got it?

    This is the real world. Government is about making choices, not tilting at windmills.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,407
    Plato said:

    Oh, I'm a glass-half-full sort. Some will be priced out victims, the rest will be motivated to be bigger.

    I do Big. And play Victim & Abuser a lot

    Is that on your Tinder profile ^_>
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited November 2014
    ''All those who decry the advance of London seem to forget that, even if parts of it are a bit grim now, entire boroughs were total and utter toilets about 30 years ago.''

    Go back further. Look at steptoe and son. Jokes about really naff areas like Putney (FNNAAR) ..and Shepherds Bush...

    Look at the bombed out, grimy, run down buildings as the 'orse and cart traipses around what are now some of the world's most affluent areas.
  • RobCRobC Posts: 398
    The thread header does have some relevance from a LD point of view. Recent polls show both government parties are starting to register a very slight swingback which in the case of the LDs was perhaps from an unrealistically low base. Even in LD marginals with an incumbent MP that must be important. Good also though for those of us who have backed the coalition and hope any credit that there is doesn't just go to the way of the Tories.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    shadsy said:

    @isam
    Mike can explain why he didn't splash with the Corals early payout if he wants, but I can take a guess.

    He knows a lot more about political betting than the hacks at the Express and he can recognise this as a fairly meaningless PR stunt. Especially as Corals is hardly anyone's go-to place for politics betting and they have probably taken peanuts on it.

    I think Betfair's sportsbook did the same thing for the Scottish Referendum for NO backers a couple of days early. That almost certainly carried a lot more risk.


    Wonder how much it cost to pay out to UKIP bettors, compared to a front page ad in the Express..
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited November 2014
    ''1) Opt back in with no changes at all.
    2) Make some changes to ameliorate the EAW, and opt back in.
    3) Opt out completely, leaving no effective extradition arrangements in place with 26 neighbouring countries, all of which have free movement of people with us.''

    4. publicly declare that, under the current arrangements that exist, there is simply no way of safeguarding the rights and protecting the liberty of British citizens, and f8cking resign.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited November 2014
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    When you take a ride on the DLR from Bank to Canary Wharf, perhaps the defining feature is the absolute lack of middle-of-the-road residential properties. All you see are luxury apartments and run-down 1960s tenements. A slight exaggeration, but not much.

    But remember what it was like in the early 80s? I do. the Docklands was an utter wasteland. Empty. Bewilderingly desolate. Ditto many parts of the South Bank, especially by Tower Bridge, also Wapping, Kings Cross, and so on.

    All those who decry the advance of London seem to forget that, even if parts of it are a bit grim now, entire boroughs were total and utter toilets about 30 years ago.
    Right, but nobody is calling for London to go back to 30 years ago, pre-Big Bang. London has clearly had a fantastic benefit from the Thatcher reforms. But what we are arguing is that London would have improved even more had it not had to fight against the tide of developing world immigration. Rather than having sterile luxury apartments and run-down estates, we could have sterile luxury apartments and pleasant spatious middle class homes.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    When you take a ride on the DLR from Bank to Canary Wharf, perhaps the defining feature is the absolute lack of middle-of-the-road residential properties. All you see are luxury apartments and run-down 1960s tenements. A slight exaggeration, but not much.

    But remember what it was like in the early 80s? I do. the Docklands was an utter wasteland. Empty. Bewilderingly desolate. Ditto many parts of the South Bank, especially by Tower Bridge, also Wapping, Kings Cross, and so on.

    All those who decry the advance of London seem to forget that, even if parts of it are a bit grim now, entire boroughs were total and utter toilets about 30 years ago.
    And before that they did not have toilets.
    What you are both talking about is change and lets remember there are always unscrupulous chancers willing to take advantage of the problems of change.

    The Thatcher era had good things and bad (well less good) things, but what it represented was change, necessary change. And with change comes turmoil. We need to stop listening to the chancers and loonies and realise that what is nimportant is managing change. Funnily enough what's always struck me is that that's what the 'conservative' party has always been about.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Tell me to bugger off if this is impertinent - after all these years, I've no idea which team you vote for. That's a compliment to your impartiality.
    AndyJS said:

    It's interesting how well UKIP are doing in London, all things considered.

    For example, Ashcroft polling had the party on 19% in Croydon Central, a crucial Con/Lab marginal with a 40-45% ethnic minority population.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054


    Sigh...

    I sometimes wonder why I bother to write sensible comments. Any nuance is invariably lost.

    One more try.

    I DO NOT SUPPORT THE EAW.

    Got that? Is that clear enough for you?

    Now can you get to the next stage of the argument, which is: what do we do about it, starting from where we started?

    Clearly we can't redesign the EAW from scratch - the time to get it right was before it was set up. Too late now; it's in place.

    So there were only three options facing Theresa May, none of them ideal.

    1) Opt back in with no changes at all.
    2) Make some changes to ameliorate the EAW, and opt back in.
    3) Opt out completely, leaving no effective extradition arrangements in place with 26 neighbouring countries, all of which have free movement of people with us.

    Of the three options, Theresa May concluded that number 2 is the least bad, and, remarkably, she seems to have made some very significant improvements. Her Telegraph article of a few days ago was a very succinct summary of the arguments.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11216589/Theresa-May-Fight-Europe-by-all-means-but-not-over-this-Arrest-Warrant.html

    Got it?

    This is the real world. Government is about making choices, not tilting at windmills.

    The correct answer is option 3 and get to work on extradition treaties with EAW nations. If they don't like it then they can lump it. The EAW is not fit for purpose and no tinkering on the edges is going to change that. Blame Labour as much as you want, but as you said it's no use now, making the best of a bad situation still leaves us in a bad situation. It is also highly questionable that any of the changes made to the British implementation of the EAW will stand up to scrutiny by the ECJ. Better not to bother and get started on an entirely different extradition mechanism that protects British citizens from corrupt and incompetent justice systems in Europe.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited November 2014
    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    What are the projections does this young woman have from the Italian justice system?

    Presumably that should those "substantial improvement" put in place on the EAW be struck down by European courts, Theresa May will opt us out again?

    I haven't made any comment on the case. I don't know anything much about it. There doesn't actually seem to have been any extradition request, as far as I can see. In fact it's not clear whether she is being accused of anything.

    Presumably, though, under any extradition arrangement someone accused of the extremely serious offence of a false rape allegation could be extradited. Are you suggesting we shouldn't have an extradition arrangement with Italy?
    No one is suggesting that, but under the EAW the extradition is immediate and without legal recourse, under the regular arrangement there would be a hearing to see whether the extradition is warranted and whether the allegations have any foundation, in a trustworthy British court, not a dodgy Italian one who seem to relish making scapegoats out of foreigners.
    Not to mention that to be extradited to most countries there needs to be "evidence or information that justifies the issue of a warrant for arrest in the UK, within the jurisdiction of a judge of the court that would hold the extradition hearing" and a lot of other bells and whistles. Plus the whole thing is appealable the whole way to the Supreme Court. Compare and contrast the difference in the EAW and Extradition processes here: https://www.gov.uk/extradition-processes-and-review
  • MaxPB said:

    The correct answer is option 3 and get to work on extradition treaties with EAW nations. If they don't like it then they can lump it. The EAW is not fit for purpose and no tinkering on the edges is going to change that. Blame Labour as much as you want, but as you said it's no use now, making the best of a bad situation still leaves us in a bad situation. It is also highly questionable that any of the changes made to the British implementation of the EAW will stand up to scrutiny by the ECJ. Better not to bother and get started on an entirely different extradition mechanism that protects British citizens from corrupt and incompetent justice systems in Europe.

    It's not the 'corrrect' answer, it's an impractical one. Our EU friends would, unsurprisingly, tell us to get stuffed, given that they have set up what they regard as a perfectly fine arrangement.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    AndyJS said:

    It's interesting how well UKIP are doing in London, all things considered.

    For example, Ashcroft polling had the party on 19% in Croydon Central, a crucial Con/Lab marginal with a 40-45% ethnic minority population.

    Londoners whose parents & grandparents are not immigrants vote UKIP just as much as the rest of the population. That's mainly because they understand and appreciate this country's heritage a lot more, whether it's an intellectual appreciation for English liberties, or just a preference for traditional British culture.

    UKIP could really make deep roads into outer London if it made its arguments better: focus on how immigration drives up rent and house prices, congestion on the roads, and a lack of school places/GP appointments. They could add to that a focus on crime: particularly gangs, knife attacks and fly-tipping.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I remember Yuppification in spades. Colleagues bought huge loft apartments in Docklands back in the early 90s and there were no shops or pubs around them to go to - or the wrong end of Liverpool St station with drip tray pints. It was a wasteland. They made a mint on them.
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    When you take a ride on the DLR from Bank to Canary Wharf, perhaps the defining feature is the absolute lack of middle-of-the-road residential properties. All you see are luxury apartments and run-down 1960s tenements. A slight exaggeration, but not much.

    But remember what it was like in the early 80s? I do. the Docklands was an utter wasteland. Empty. Bewilderingly desolate. Ditto many parts of the South Bank, especially by Tower Bridge, also Wapping, Kings Cross, and so on.

    All those who decry the advance of London seem to forget that, even if parts of it are a bit grim now, entire boroughs were total and utter toilets about 30 years ago.
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    Another very good night for the tories in last nights by elections. They have had an excellent run recently
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    MaxPB said:

    The correct answer is option 3 and get to work on extradition treaties with EAW nations. If they don't like it then they can lump it. The EAW is not fit for purpose and no tinkering on the edges is going to change that. Blame Labour as much as you want, but as you said it's no use now, making the best of a bad situation still leaves us in a bad situation. It is also highly questionable that any of the changes made to the British implementation of the EAW will stand up to scrutiny by the ECJ. Better not to bother and get started on an entirely different extradition mechanism that protects British citizens from corrupt and incompetent justice systems in Europe.

    It's not the 'corrrect' answer, it's an impractical one. Our EU friends would, unsurprisingly, tell us to get stuffed, given that they have set up what they regard as a perfectly fine arrangement.
    Presumably they have extradition treaties with non-EU nations.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    The correct answer is option 3 and get to work on extradition treaties with EAW nations. If they don't like it then they can lump it. The EAW is not fit for purpose and no tinkering on the edges is going to change that. Blame Labour as much as you want, but as you said it's no use now, making the best of a bad situation still leaves us in a bad situation. It is also highly questionable that any of the changes made to the British implementation of the EAW will stand up to scrutiny by the ECJ. Better not to bother and get started on an entirely different extradition mechanism that protects British citizens from corrupt and incompetent justice systems in Europe.

    It's not the 'corrrect' answer, it's an impractical one. Our EU friends would, unsurprisingly, tell us to get stuffed, given that they have set up what they regard as a perfectly fine arrangement.
    Presumably they have extradition treaties with non-EU nations.
    "the EAW is not seen in Europe as a free standing extradition device, but part of the creation of a pan-European system of Criminal Justice, with its own prosecution service, it's own police force and its own court" - Daniel Hannan, Conservative MEP
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054

    MaxPB said:

    The correct answer is option 3 and get to work on extradition treaties with EAW nations. If they don't like it then they can lump it. The EAW is not fit for purpose and no tinkering on the edges is going to change that. Blame Labour as much as you want, but as you said it's no use now, making the best of a bad situation still leaves us in a bad situation. It is also highly questionable that any of the changes made to the British implementation of the EAW will stand up to scrutiny by the ECJ. Better not to bother and get started on an entirely different extradition mechanism that protects British citizens from corrupt and incompetent justice systems in Europe.

    It's not the 'corrrect' answer, it's an impractical one. Our EU friends would, unsurprisingly, tell us to get stuffed, given that they have set up what they regard as a perfectly fine arrangement.
    Then we can tell them to do one. It's not that hard. Maggie did it and came back with a massive rebate. The truth is that Dave is just too weak. His need to be loved/liked is just too strong. Even when he "vetoed" the fiskalcompact he didn't actually exercise full veto powers and exclude the use of EU mechanisms and organisations to members who signed up. He wants to be liked by other members too much rather than get the best deal for British citizens which was to completely halt the EAW in the UK and properly veto the compact and force them to self-police it via enhanced co-operation and preclude them the use of the ECJ.
  • shadsyshadsy Posts: 289

    shadsy said:

    @isam
    Mike can explain why he didn't splash with the Corals early payout if he wants, but I can take a guess.

    He knows a lot more about political betting than the hacks at the Express and he can recognise this as a fairly meaningless PR stunt. Especially as Corals is hardly anyone's go-to place for politics betting and they have probably taken peanuts on it.

    I think Betfair's sportsbook did the same thing for the Scottish Referendum for NO backers a couple of days early. That almost certainly carried a lot more risk.


    Wonder how much it cost to pay out to UKIP bettors, compared to a front page ad in the Express..
    Not much. It would potentially cost Ladbrokes just over £50k if we did it and the Tories won. Let's generously say there is a 10% chance of that happening, so the expected cost is around £5k. If I'd known it would get on the front page of a national, I'd call that very good value.
    I would imagine that the equivalent Coral's figure is even lower, so a great PR result for them.
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:



    Newham is a complete and utter s***hole.

    Isn't the place economically benefitting from having had so much more immigration than the rest of the country?

    Or so the high priests of PC-ness would have us believe.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    *claps*

    Talking Norwegian here as well.

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    What are the projections does this young woman have from the Italian justice system?

    Presumably that should those "substantial improvement" put in place on the EAW be struck down by European courts, Theresa May will opt us out again?

    I haven't made any comment on the case. I don't know anything much about it. There doesn't actually seem to have been any extradition request, as far as I can see. In fact it's not clear whether she is being accused of anything.

    Presumably, though, under any extradition arrangement someone accused of the extremely serious offence of a false rape allegation could be extradited. Are you suggesting we shouldn't have an extradition arrangment with Italy?
    No one is suggesting that, but under the EAW the extradition is immediate and without legal recourse, under the regular arrangement there would be a hearing to see whether the extradition is warranted and whether the allegations have any foundation, in a trustworthy British court, not a dodgy Italian one who seem to relish making scapegoats out of foreigners.

    Your support of the EAW is absolutely disgusting and snivelling Richard, just like your support of the snoopers charter. The Tories are on the wrong side of both arguments here. British citizens need protection from the power of the executive, especially those in foreign countries who have little to no regard for the rule of law.
    Sigh...

    I sometimes wonder why I bother to write sensible comments. Any nuance is invariably lost.

    One more try.

    I DO NOT SUPPORT THE EAW.

    Got that? Is that clear enough for you?

    Now can you get to the next stage of the argument, which is: what do we do about it, starting from where we started?

    Clearly we can't redesign the EAW from scratch - the time to get it right was before it was set up. Too late now; it's in place.

    So there were only three options facing Theresa May, none of them ideal.

    1) Opt back in with no changes at all.
    2) Make some changes to ameliorate the EAW, and opt back in.
    3) Opt out completely, leaving no effective extradition arrangements in place with 26 neighbouring countries, all of which have free movement of people with us.

    Of the three options, Theresa May concluded that number 2 is the least bad, and, remarkably, she seems to have made some very significant improvements. Her Telegraph article of a few days ago was a very succinct summary of the arguments.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11216589/Theresa-May-Fight-Europe-by-all-means-but-not-over-this-Arrest-Warrant.html

    Got it?

    This is the real world. Government is about making choices, not tilting at windmills.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    When you take a ride on the DLR from Bank to Canary Wharf, perhaps the defining feature is the absolute lack of middle-of-the-road residential properties. All you see are luxury apartments and run-down 1960s tenements. A slight exaggeration, but not much.

    But remember what it was like in the early 80s? I do. the Docklands was an utter wasteland. Empty. Bewilderingly desolate. Ditto many parts of the South Bank, especially by Tower Bridge, also Wapping, Kings Cross, and so on.

    All those who decry the advance of London seem to forget that, even if parts of it are a bit grim now, entire boroughs were total and utter toilets about 30 years ago.
    Right, but nobody is calling for London to go back to 30 years ago, pre-Big Bang. London has clearly had a fantastic benefit from the Thatcher reforms. But what we are arguing is that London would have improved even more had it not had to fight against the tide of developing world immigration. Rather than having sterile luxury apartments and run-down estates, we could have sterile luxury apartments and pleasant spatious middle class homes.
    Why build sterile luxury apartments that no one in the area can afford, which results in people from the area having to move out?

    Does everything have to be so bipolar? The money used to gentrify parts of the East End and Zones 1&2 needn't have led to social cleansing.. but that is what is happening

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/newham-council-accused-of-social-cleansing-after-attempts-to-move-poorest-families-7674939.html
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721

    @NickPalmer‌ I'm still keen to know your views on IHT.

    Is it a tax that has been deliberately engineered by government to allow people with the know how, or the means to afford someone else with the know how, to completely avoid paying it?

    If so, why does it exist at all? That would clearly be unfair on those without the means or the know how.

    If not, and the ways of getting around it are accidental loopholes, will you criticise the Milibands for what you surely must regard as action as morally reprehensible as the legal corporate tax avoidance that you're seemingly keen to publicly condemn?

    Or do you have to try to find a third way to explain this, saving you the bother of sticking to your principles without criticising Miliband?

    I think that IHT should be made as effective as possible - I paid a large chunk on my mum's estate and thought it quite painless (the windfall was welcome anyway). I know the practical difficulties, though. As for your query, I try not to comment on anyone's private affairs, especially when I don't know the details, such as the arrangements of Mr Miliband senior's estate N years ago.
    Just one more, hypothetical, question on this; if it were to become public knowledge that the Milibands did dodge IHT through a deed of variation (I'm no expert on IHT avoidance but I believe this is what's alleged), would you be prepared to then criticise him?

    And please don't hide behind that "private affairs" shield again. The man wants to be PM and is already bashing companies for legally avoiding tax. And, hypothetically, it's already public.

    So when/if a rich Tory does similar can we assume NPXMP will claim it is their own public affair?

    When will the media run with the Millibands and their view that IHT is for the proles. I now know why they don't care about the threshold - they'll always be exempt.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    isam said:

    Newham will become as segregated as Tower Hamlets, with fabulously wealthy people living on one side and very poor people living on the other.. divided by wealth, colour, religion and language

    Wealth and religion have always been demarcation lines.

    The grumbling from places like Havering is because people can see that the decades long direction of travel between money and poverty in relation to property has reversed.

    The money is heading into London, rather than out to suburbia, while the poverty is heading out rather than clustering in.


  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    JackW said:

    Mention earlier of PB's most famous pair of red shoes had me wondering whether OGH had borrowed them whilst wandering up the yellow peril brick road to find the Wizard of Ashcroft playing with his organ and spewing out polls.

    Nominations for other roles :

    Red Slippers - TSE
    Dorothy - Mike Smithson
    Cowardly Lion (Looking for courage and friend of Dorothy) - Ed Miliband
    Tin Man - (Seeks a brain) - Ed Balls
    Scarecrow - (Searching for a heart) - George Osborne
    Toto - (Scruffy Dog) - Robert Smithson
    Wicked Witch of the West - Margaret Beckett
    Glenda the Good Witch - Theresa May
    The Tornado - Bedford Gays

    Shouldn't you ask my permission before asking all these people 'round my gaffe?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    My point is that one decides what role one wants to play - Victim or Abuser. In charge of your destiny or a chorus line player.

    If residents of Newham want to be in the chorus line, it's their choice. I have no sympathy for them. They could've made another one, but didn't. If they want to wallow in their own choices, fine. But don't expect me to feel sorry for them. It's an existence they chose. We all choose ours.
    isam said:

    Plato said:

    Oh, I'm a glass-half-full sort. Some will be priced out victims, the rest will be motivated to be bigger.

    I do Big. And play Victim & Abuser a lot. It's not pretty, but brutally honest, rather than self-deceiving.

    isam said:

    Plato said:

    That's encouraging. I come from an area where broken glass cemented on top of walls was de rigure. And the birth of Ram Raids as evolutionary progress.

    chestnut said:

    Plato said:

    I presume Stratford is better than it was

    Newham is a sandwich.

    At the top, between Bow Church and Stratford, are block after block of new luxury apartments. At the bottom they've tried to replicate Docklands.

    The bit in between is a mixture of old terraces and council estates.

    When people run it down, they're really running down the people who live in it.

    The actual housing is just lots of old terraces, very similar to places that are now deemed trendy in places like Stoke Newington and Crouch End.
    Its not really encouraging... the people who call it home will be shunted out as the local authorities sell the new homes to rich outsiders and build social housing on the outskirts of London to house those who are priced out/in social housing

    Newham will become as segregated as Tower Hamlets, with fabulously wealthy people living on one side and very poor people living on the other.. divided by wealth, colour, religion and language

    You've lost me there I am afriad
  • ItajaiItajai Posts: 721
    Moses_ said:

    Mr. Tokyo, Labour also campaigned for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, and then just didn't hold one.

    Indeed more a promise than the Tories one ever was but still.

    The EU loves plebiscites as well. They just keep holding them until they get the correct answer they wanted in the first place.


    I do believe our very own NPthenMP even included that commitment in his election manifesto.
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    The election of Stuart Hosie MP as Deputy Leader in a very close result-55 to 45 so obviously very close :-) strikes me as evidence that the SNP will be more strongly focussed on the Westminster GE than at any time since the creation of Holyrood.

    They must have considerable money available (and a ready member base to raise more) which was not spent in the referendum if recent figures are to be believed.

    Number of seats they will win in GE 2015 still very difficult to predict under the barking mad FPTP voting system.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    chestnut said:

    isam said:

    Newham will become as segregated as Tower Hamlets, with fabulously wealthy people living on one side and very poor people living on the other.. divided by wealth, colour, religion and language

    Wealth and religion have always been demarcation lines.

    The grumbling from places like Havering is because people can see that the decades long direction of travel between money and poverty in relation to property has reversed.

    The money is heading into London, rather than out to suburbia, while the poverty is heading out rather than clustering in.


    With government help
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    chestnut said:

    isam said:

    Newham will become as segregated as Tower Hamlets, with fabulously wealthy people living on one side and very poor people living on the other.. divided by wealth, colour, religion and language

    Wealth and religion have always been demarcation lines.

    The grumbling from places like Havering is because people can see that the decades long direction of travel between money and poverty in relation to property has reversed.

    The money is heading into London, rather than out to suburbia, while the poverty is heading out rather than clustering in.


    What were the religious demarcation lines in Havering in, say, 1945?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The discussion today on London's prosperity explosion is interesting in the light of what is happening politically.

    If social cleansing were really happening London would (surely?) be turning blue. As it is, the opposite seems to be happening.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    isam said:

    Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    When you take a ride on the DLR from Bank to Canary Wharf, perhaps the defining feature is the absolute lack of middle-of-the-road residential properties. All you see are luxury apartments and run-down 1960s tenements. A slight exaggeration, but not much.

    But remember what it was like in the early 80s? I do. the Docklands was an utter wasteland. Empty. Bewilderingly desolate. Ditto many parts of the South Bank, especially by Tower Bridge, also Wapping, Kings Cross, and so on.

    All those who decry the advance of London seem to forget that, even if parts of it are a bit grim now, entire boroughs were total and utter toilets about 30 years ago.
    Right, but nobody is calling for London to go back to 30 years ago, pre-Big Bang. London has clearly had a fantastic benefit from the Thatcher reforms. But what we are arguing is that London would have improved even more had it not had to fight against the tide of developing world immigration. Rather than having sterile luxury apartments and run-down estates, we could have sterile luxury apartments and pleasant spatious middle class homes.
    Why build sterile luxury apartments that no one in the area can afford, which results in people from the area having to move out?

    Does everything have to be so bipolar? The money used to gentrify parts of the East End and Zones 1&2 needn't have led to social cleansing.. but that is what is happening

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/newham-council-accused-of-social-cleansing-after-attempts-to-move-poorest-families-7674939.html
    The point is that both the luxury flats for single professionals and the middle-class families WOULD have been affordable, had we not massively ramped up the population of London, causing a huge squeeze on housing supply.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    What are the projections does this young woman have from the Italian justice system?

    Presumably that should those "substantial improvement" put in place on the EAW be struck down by European courts, Theresa May will opt us out again?

    I haven't made any comment on the case. I don't know anything much about it. There doesn't actually seem to have been any extradition request, as far as I can see. In fact it's not clear whether she is being accused of anything.

    Presumably, though, under any extradition arrangement someone accused of the extremely serious offence of a false rape allegation could be extradited. Are you suggesting we shouldn't have an extradition arrangment with Italy?
    No one is suggesting that, but under the EAW the extradition is immediate and without legal recourse, under the regular arrangement there would be a hearing to see whether the extradition is warranted and whether the allegations have any foundation, in a trustworthy British court, not a dodgy Italian one who seem to relish making scapegoats out of foreigners.

    Your support of the EAW is absolutely disgusting and snivelling Richard, just like your support of the snoopers charter. The Tories are on the wrong side of both arguments here. British citizens need protection from the power of the executive, especially those in foreign countries who have little to no regard for the rule of law.
    There are 'Grounds for mandatory non-execution of the European arrest warrant' and 'Grounds for optional non-execution of the European arrest warrant'
    The 'Framework Decision shall not have the effect of modifying the obligation to respect fundamental rights and fundamental legal principles as enshrined in Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union'

    A EAW can only be issued for the purposes of conducting a criminal prosecution (not merely an investigation), or enforcing a custodial sentence. It can only be issued for offences carrying a maximum penalty of 12 months or more in prison. Where sentence has already been passed an EAW can only be issued if the prison term to be enforced is at least four months long.
    This process has been ongoing for years and years.

    Its designed to take the politics out of the process and put it in the hands of the judiciary.
    Your comments about foreign countries just about sums you and your lot up. Hate foreigners.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Well, well, well, well, well as Warren Clarke famously said.

    Rochester really is all over if the bookies are already paying out. They got it right doing the same thing with the Indy referendum.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The correct answer is option 3 and get to work on extradition treaties with EAW nations. If they don't like it then they can lump it. The EAW is not fit for purpose and no tinkering on the edges is going to change that. Blame Labour as much as you want, but as you said it's no use now, making the best of a bad situation still leaves us in a bad situation. It is also highly questionable that any of the changes made to the British implementation of the EAW will stand up to scrutiny by the ECJ. Better not to bother and get started on an entirely different extradition mechanism that protects British citizens from corrupt and incompetent justice systems in Europe.

    It's not the 'corrrect' answer, it's an impractical one. Our EU friends would, unsurprisingly, tell us to get stuffed, given that they have set up what they regard as a perfectly fine arrangement.
    Then we can tell them to do one. It's not that hard. Maggie did it and came back with a massive rebate. The truth is that Dave is just too weak. His need to be loved/liked is just too strong. Even when he "vetoed" the fiskalcompact he didn't actually exercise full veto powers and exclude the use of EU mechanisms and organisations to members who signed up. He wants to be liked by other members too much rather than get the best deal for British citizens which was to completely halt the EAW in the UK and properly veto the compact and force them to self-police it via enhanced co-operation and preclude them the use of the ECJ.
    And the day after he did that, the LibDems would desert him, he would lose a vote of confidence.. lose the resulting GE (as Conservatives were WAYYY behind Labour in the polls.

    The new Labour Government would rescind the VETO.

    So really clever Government action. Lose Government and not achieve anything.

    You anti Eu people really need to think through the consequences of your actions... :-)
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30028782

    For any rugby punters, food for thought. At some point this could turn into a bit of a crisis for SA.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Its designed to take the politics out of the process and put it in the hands of the judiciary.
    Your comments about foreign countries just about sums you and your lot up. Hate foreigners.

    So now pointing out that the Italian justice system faces a lot of corruption is also a mark of xenophobia. Where does this logic end exactly? Having to pretend that the Central African Republic is just as successful as the UK and its racist to suggest anything otherwise?

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    What are the projections does this young woman have from the Italian justice system?

    Presumably that should those "substantial improvement" put in place on the EAW be struck down by European courts, Theresa May will opt us out again?

    I haven't made any comment on the case. I don't know anything much about it. There doesn't actually seem to have been any extradition request, as far as I can see. In fact it's not clear whether she is being accused of anything.

    Presumably, though, under any extradition arrangement someone accused of the extremely serious offence of a false rape allegation could be extradited. Are you suggesting we shouldn't have an extradition arrangment with Italy?
    No one is suggesting that, but under the EAW the extradition is immediate and without legal recourse, under the regular arrangement there would be a hearing to see whether the extradition is warranted and whether the allegations have any foundation, in a trustworthy British court, not a dodgy Italian one who seem to relish making scapegoats out of foreigners.

    Your support of the EAW is absolutely disgusting and snivelling Richard, just like your support of the snoopers charter. The Tories are on the wrong side of both arguments here. British citizens need protection from the power of the executive, especially those in foreign countries who have little to no regard for the rule of law.
    There are 'Grounds for mandatory non-execution of the European arrest warrant' and 'Grounds for optional non-execution of the European arrest warrant'
    The 'Framework Decision shall not have the effect of modifying the obligation to respect fundamental rights and fundamental legal principles as enshrined in Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union'

    A EAW can only be issued for the purposes of conducting a criminal prosecution (not merely an investigation), or enforcing a custodial sentence. It can only be issued for offences carrying a maximum penalty of 12 months or more in prison. Where sentence has already been passed an EAW can only be issued if the prison term to be enforced is at least four months long.
    This process has been ongoing for years and years.

    Its designed to take the politics out of the process and put it in the hands of the judiciary.
    Your comments about foreign countries just about sums you and your lot up. Hate foreigners.
    Seems slightly at odds with using the EAW process to arrest parents who took their child out of hospital to get him treated somewhere else. Which custodial sentence was being enforced there, and which prosecution rather than investigation ?

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    RobC said:

    Isn't the Daily Excess the Kippers own house paper these days with a penchant for scaring its dimishing elderly readership with bloodcurdling stories about impending artic blasts (that never materialise) and other ludicrous hyberbole?

    To be fair, their bloodcurdling warnings about the weather last Christmas turned out to be pretty accurate!
    But in other respects its pretty pathetic to see the miserable depths to which the rag that is the current Express has sunk to.
    I think we can expect that if its dubious proprietors think there is money in it for them they will be curdling the blood in favour of UKIP and the hate the immigrants band wagon soon enough.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Socrates said:


    What were the religious demarcation lines in Havering in, say, 1945?

    The comment related primarily to Tower Hamlets.

    It has been the home of the Huguenots, the Irish and the Jewish. The dock area was well known for it's Chinese links. All this before the Bengalis.

    It's beyond credulity to fail to recognise that wealth has been a demarcation line for where people live for yonks.

    Mayfair was lush and Tower Hamlets a Ripperite slum back in the 19th century.


  • RobCRobC Posts: 398
    AndyJS said:

    Well, well, well, well, well as Warren Clarke famously said.

    Rochester really is all over if the bookies are already paying out. They got it right doing the same thing with the Indy referendum.

    Sorry to see he passed away the other day - very decent character actor.
This discussion has been closed.