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  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by one: CON 33%, LAB 34%, LD 7%, UKIP 15%, GRN 6%

    LAB 327 CON 278 LD 17

    EICIPM
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Possible stories for Newsnight...

    Armistice Day
    EU migrant welfare ruling
    NHS Funding Gap
    Paedo Ring Report Release
    Ebola
    ISIS

    Nope, bloke who has created a deliberately sexist character with a stupid catchphrase, isn't having his tv show, that nobody watched, renewed for a second season.

    From April 'Newsnight is not dumbing down'

    http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5227116

    Yeah right
  • TapestryTapestry Posts: 153
    Try an alternative view. Time to drop the poppy and war hero stuff. http://tapnewswire.com/2014/11/drop-the-poppy-and-the-hero-stuff/
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by one: CON 33%, LAB 34%, LD 7%, UKIP 15%, GRN 6%

    LAB 327 CON 278 LD 17

    EICIPM
    Interestingly the last 20 YouGov polls have all had Labour and Tories within the margin of error. It is simply too close to call at present.
  • Blueberry said:

    ZenPagan said:

    FFS, the 2nd most important news story according to Newsnight...Dapper Laughs. I mean really.

    I had never heard of Mr Laughs until a few days ago. His main crime appears to be telling duff old jokes. He reminds me of a 18-30 rep.
    he was a cruise ship entertainer before fame struck I believe so not far off
    A lot of his vines are filmed in Clapham, many in an estate agents' so I wouldn't be surprised if he's had a go at that too. If he's got any balls he'll tell Emily she's proper moist. If he chucks his character in, that's the end of him I should think. But good to see there's still a market for sexist humour among the young.... have never liked the way the BBC tries to control comedy.
    He appears to have consigned D. Laughs to history, which must rank the shortest publicity blaze in comedy history. Nobody had even heard of him until Saturday, now Dapper Laughs Esq is no more.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    Blueberry said:

    ZenPagan said:

    FFS, the 2nd most important news story according to Newsnight...Dapper Laughs. I mean really.

    I had never heard of Mr Laughs until a few days ago. His main crime appears to be telling duff old jokes. He reminds me of a 18-30 rep.
    he was a cruise ship entertainer before fame struck I believe so not far off
    A lot of his vines are filmed in Clapham, many in an estate agents' so I wouldn't be surprised if he's had a go at that too. If he's got any balls he'll tell Emily she's proper moist. If he chucks his character in, that's the end of him I should think. But good to see there's still a market for sexist humour among the young.... have never liked the way the BBC tries to control comedy.
    I should say I have never seen the man in question as I don't actually have a tv.

    As to a market for the young you are probably right I showed my son blazing saddles and the comic strip series once and while it made him laugh a huge amount he was also telling me "they can't say that surely"

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited November 2014
    The poppies have all been sold, and with the proceeds going to a number of military charities. We purchased our poppy a couple of months ago.

    Why are the poppies being taken away so quickly, they're hardly in the way after all, and what's going to happen to them ?

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by one: CON 33%, LAB 34%, LD 7%, UKIP 15%, GRN 6%

    LAB 327 CON 278 LD 17

    EICIPM
    Interestingly the last 20 YouGov polls have all had Labour and Tories within the margin of error. It is simply too close to call at present.
    Disagree. Labour are almost certainly in the lead. (>99% chance, unless there's some systematic pro-Labour bias in the polls)
  • Blueberry said:

    ZenPagan said:

    FFS, the 2nd most important news story according to Newsnight...Dapper Laughs. I mean really.

    I had never heard of Mr Laughs until a few days ago. His main crime appears to be telling duff old jokes. He reminds me of a 18-30 rep.
    he was a cruise ship entertainer before fame struck I believe so not far off
    A lot of his vines are filmed in Clapham, many in an estate agents' so I wouldn't be surprised if he's had a go at that too. If he's got any balls he'll tell Emily she's proper moist. If he chucks his character in, that's the end of him I should think. But good to see there's still a market for sexist humour among the young.... have never liked the way the BBC tries to control comedy.
    He appears to have consigned D. Laughs to history, which must rank the shortest publicity blaze in comedy history. Nobody had even heard of him until Saturday, now Dapper Laughs Esq is no more.
    He's got 366k twitter followers - mainly I presume amongst, thicker teenagers so there's clearly a market for what he was doing. But it's the antithesis of what the BBC/Guardian find funny, so they've used their power to shut him down. He'd have been better off not apologising and just being an internet act - not sure that he needed ITV4.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "The Tories thought they would crush Ukip's Mark Reckless in Rochester and Strood. But their hubris has come back to haunt them"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11223928/Ukip-success-in-Rochester-wont-surprise-the-Tories.-But-it-should-terrify-them.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited November 2014
    I kinda of wished that guy would have stuck to his guns with the Dapper Laughs character and said sod you, its a character, its taking the pi$$ out of idiots that are like that in society.

    Personally, the bit I saw, not funny, very crass, and often offensive. But then I'm not forced to watch, go to his shows etc, same as you wont get me going to a Frankie Boyle show either.

    Difference is the Guardian give Boyle chance to spew his stuff on their website, while campaigning to get this guy shut down.

    Number of complaints about his ITV show, 39. I bet the Archers probably get that many complaints. And before the Guardian and fellow travellers got onboard, very few people were outraged about him.

    This come a week after having to have Mr Russell Brand forced down by throat on every media outlet, spouting his nonsense, and what he did live on the radio is certainly comparable (if not worse).
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    ZenPagan said:


    As to a market for the young you are probably right I showed my son blazing saddles and the comic strip series once and while it made him laugh a huge amount he was also telling me "they can't say that surely"

    "Joey ... do you like movies about gladiators?"

    "Joey ... have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"

    Cant imagine Airplane! getting away with those lines 30 years later.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    (OT)
    I don't understand number 11 in this list (the one about hanging a picture)

    http://www.dose.com/lists/16423/12-Home-Hacks-That-Will-Make-Improving-Your-Space-So-Easy#

    (I thought I might as well ask here because PB is usually full of experts who know everything about everything)
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689

    I kinda of wished that guy would have stuck to his guns with the Dapper Laughs character and said sod you, its a character, its taking the pi$$ out of idiots that are like that in society.

    Personally, the bit I saw, not funny, very crass, and often offensive. But then I'm not forced to watch, go to his shows etc, same as you wont get me going to a Frankie Boyle show either.

    Difference is the Guardian give Boyle chance to spew his stuff on their website, while campaigning to get this guy shut down.

    Number of complaints about his ITV show, 39. I bet the Archers probably get that many complaints. And before the Guardian and fellow travellers got onboard, very few people were outraged about him.

    Precisely the point I was making earlier...let people air their views. Argue against them rationally and you may change minds. The BNP was a case study on that while the guardian . UAF etc and bbc was shouting their "no platform" mantra no change....let Griffin on question time and the bnp vote collapses in months

  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312

    Of course when Avery referred to Muslims as 'ragheads' there was a complete lack of criticism from Conservative supporters on this site.

    Likewise its curious that some people here regularly mention a UKIP nobody referring to another UKIP nobody as 'Ting Tong' but never mention John Prescott referring to Chuka Umunna as 'Chumbawamba'.

    I'm not sure "Chumbawamba" is actually a racist term for any minority.

    Well you could try calling a few black people that and see what reaction you get.

    I wonder what the reaction would be if a UKIP nobody called a black UKIP nobody 'Chumbawamba'.
    I think I fit the description of 'UKIP nobody.'

    How about 'Chuckus Yourmoney'?
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    Neil said:

    ZenPagan said:


    As to a market for the young you are probably right I showed my son blazing saddles and the comic strip series once and while it made him laugh a huge amount he was also telling me "they can't say that surely"

    "Joey ... do you like movies about gladiators?"

    "Joey ... have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"

    Cant imagine Airplane! getting away with those lines 30 years later.
    No they wouldn't and its a great shame we have lost much in the PC drive. Art is meant to be subversive and will often drive people to question deep held beliefs more often than "you mustn't say that" will

  • ZenPagan said:

    I kinda of wished that guy would have stuck to his guns with the Dapper Laughs character and said sod you, its a character, its taking the pi$$ out of idiots that are like that in society.

    Personally, the bit I saw, not funny, very crass, and often offensive. But then I'm not forced to watch, go to his shows etc, same as you wont get me going to a Frankie Boyle show either.

    Difference is the Guardian give Boyle chance to spew his stuff on their website, while campaigning to get this guy shut down.

    Number of complaints about his ITV show, 39. I bet the Archers probably get that many complaints. And before the Guardian and fellow travellers got onboard, very few people were outraged about him.

    Precisely the point I was making earlier...let people air their views. Argue against them rationally and you may change minds. The BNP was a case study on that while the guardian . UAF etc and bbc was shouting their "no platform" mantra no change....let Griffin on question time and the bnp vote collapses in months

    Biggest killer interview of Griffin wasn't QT, it was Iain Dale. Iain Dale asked him calmly about his views, his policies, and then challenged him how any of it would work. Griffin was a total mess, because for once he got him off his home turf of "are you are racist". Dale got him to dig a hole and jump into it, without going down that route at all.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    ZenPagan said:

    I kinda of wished that guy would have stuck to his guns with the Dapper Laughs character and said sod you, its a character, its taking the pi$$ out of idiots that are like that in society.

    Personally, the bit I saw, not funny, very crass, and often offensive. But then I'm not forced to watch, go to his shows etc, same as you wont get me going to a Frankie Boyle show either.

    Difference is the Guardian give Boyle chance to spew his stuff on their website, while campaigning to get this guy shut down.

    Number of complaints about his ITV show, 39. I bet the Archers probably get that many complaints. And before the Guardian and fellow travellers got onboard, very few people were outraged about him.

    The BNP was a case study on that while the guardian . UAF etc and bbc was shouting their "no platform" mantra no change....let Griffin on question time and the bnp vote collapses in months

    Indeed. It was actually rather insulting that many seemed to think millions of people would fall under the sway if Griffin if they could actually hear what he believed. No no guys, he's bad, just trust us...what's that, you'd like to listen and make your own judgement? That's cute, don't worry your heads about it, we know what you need to understand.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    SeanT That is a tight contest between Ed Miliband and IDS. However, technically both polled better than Foot and Hague who were the worst opposition leaders since the war in electoral terms despite their oratorical skills
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808

    Cookie said:

    Andy JS below mentions the excellent news that the Manchester airport metrolink extension has opened a year early. In fact, I think it's getting on for two years ahead of it's original open date. I can't remember any public project running so far ahead of schedule. Someone issue some serious congratulations.
    Unfortunately, at present, for perfectly reasonable operational reasons, you have to change at Cornbrook to get to the city centre - not yet enough capacity in the city centre - but a slightly imperfect system way ahead of schedule surely much better than no system at all. Particularly one that stops 8 minutes walk from my house.
    Mind you, the trams on that line are almost totally empty at the moment. But give it time. And it at least means - in contrast to the Altrincham line - that it's possible to get a seat.

    Manchester appears to be a city that is going places. A 2.7million mayoralty, a wonderful team system. It is clearly the Second City, having left Birmingham for dead.
    And yet Birmingham city centre is a much more pleasant place than Manchester. Walking round the latter a few months ago, I was struck that it was still at the grotty partial regeneration stage. In contrast New St, Colmore Row, the Cathedral Square etc., in Bham are fantastic.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689

    ZenPagan said:

    I kinda of wished that guy would have stuck to his guns with the Dapper Laughs character and said sod you, its a character, its taking the pi$$ out of idiots that are like that in society.

    Personally, the bit I saw, not funny, very crass, and often offensive. But then I'm not forced to watch, go to his shows etc, same as you wont get me going to a Frankie Boyle show either.

    Difference is the Guardian give Boyle chance to spew his stuff on their website, while campaigning to get this guy shut down.

    Number of complaints about his ITV show, 39. I bet the Archers probably get that many complaints. And before the Guardian and fellow travellers got onboard, very few people were outraged about him.

    Precisely the point I was making earlier...let people air their views. Argue against them rationally and you may change minds. The BNP was a case study on that while the guardian . UAF etc and bbc was shouting their "no platform" mantra no change....let Griffin on question time and the bnp vote collapses in months

    Biggest killer interview of Griffin wasn't QT, it was Iain Dale. Iain Dale asked him calmly about his views, his policies, and then challenged him how any of it would work. Griffin was a total mess, because for once he got him off his home turf of "are you are racist". Dale got him to dig a hole and jump into it, without going down that route at all.
    I missed that so you could well be right

  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    kle4 said:

    ZenPagan said:

    I kinda of wished that guy would have stuck to his guns with the Dapper Laughs character and said sod you, its a character, its taking the pi$$ out of idiots that are like that in society.

    Personally, the bit I saw, not funny, very crass, and often offensive. But then I'm not forced to watch, go to his shows etc, same as you wont get me going to a Frankie Boyle show either.

    Difference is the Guardian give Boyle chance to spew his stuff on their website, while campaigning to get this guy shut down.

    Number of complaints about his ITV show, 39. I bet the Archers probably get that many complaints. And before the Guardian and fellow travellers got onboard, very few people were outraged about him.

    The BNP was a case study on that while the guardian . UAF etc and bbc was shouting their "no platform" mantra no change....let Griffin on question time and the bnp vote collapses in months

    Indeed. It was actually rather insulting that many seemed to think millions of people would fall under the sway if Griffin if they could actually hear what he believed. No no guys, he's bad, just trust us...what's that, you'd like to listen and make your own judgement? That's cute, don't worry your heads about it, we know what you need to understand.
    It is typical of the political and media establishments though. We are all thick and must be told what to believe

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    As for D Laughs having watched newsnight his lyrics did not seem that different from what Eminem and multiple rappers come out with, if you don't like him you don't have to listen to him
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    isam said:

    "The Tories thought they would crush Ukip's Mark Reckless in Rochester and Strood. But their hubris has come back to haunt them"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11223928/Ukip-success-in-Rochester-wont-surprise-the-Tories.-But-it-should-terrify-them.html

    Matthew Goodwin's thoughts on Rochester:

    http://www.matthewjgoodwin.com/2014/11/where-things-stand-rochester-and-strood.html
  • Neil said:

    ZenPagan said:


    As to a market for the young you are probably right I showed my son blazing saddles and the comic strip series once and while it made him laugh a huge amount he was also telling me "they can't say that surely"

    "Joey ... do you like movies about gladiators?"

    "Joey ... have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"

    Cant imagine Airplane! getting away with those lines 30 years later.
    I watched Blazing Saddles a few weeks ago, they definitely couldn't make that now.

    Airplane! Is my favourite film ever
  • As I say I had never even heard of D. Laughs until Saturday. I looked him up on YouTube and his act consisted mainly of repetitive claims that he had a huge member. Perhaps this is why others, less polite than me, described him as a "massive cock".
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    HYUFD said:

    As for D Laughs having watched newsnight his lyrics did not seem that different from what Eminem and multiple rappers come out with, if you don't like him you don't have to listen to him

    When mary whitehouse came out with her diatribes we laughed at her views

    now due to pc if we talk disparagingly about the lyrics of rappers we are dissing black culture and that is racist.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    edited November 2014
    Tapestry said:

    Try an alternative view. Time to drop the poppy and war hero stuff. http://tapnewswire.com/2014/11/drop-the-poppy-and-the-hero-stuff/

    Wearing a Remembrance Day poppy gives the wrong message. Remember those lost, not as heroes but as pointless victims of unjustifiable slaughter, manipulated by a secret cabal of people who will never fight.

    Where have you been for many many years? That's precisely how masses of people remember those lost (not that the people who would never fight were very secret either), as victims of a seminal tragedy of the modern era. Wearing a poppy and recalling the bravery of those who fought heroically (in the individual sense, not in the sense that the war was some glorious contest of noble motives) and died in that quagmire of a war does not mean the lessons are not taken in.

    People can commemorate the fallen however they choose, or not to at all if that is their wish, but I do get confused when people tell me that wearing a poppy sends the wrong message, because the message they tell me it sends does not accord at all with what I believe the message is.

    The stupidity of WW1 and the consequences if anything make it a particular good symbol, to remind people (although not always successfully) not to sleepwalk into such conflicts because it amplifies the tragedy of all wars. Maybe the poppy was just a patriotic propaganda thing once, I wouldn't know, but even if someone decides not to wear one, or wear a white one or something else, the argument you make about what it represents does not seem very credible from where I'm standing.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983



    Airplane! Is my favourite film ever

    Greatest movie ever made.

    "Nervous?"

    "Yes."

    "First time?"

    "No, I've been nervous before."
  • Cookie said:

    Andy JS below mentions the excellent news that the Manchester airport metrolink extension has opened a year early. In fact, I think it's getting on for two years ahead of it's original open date. I can't remember any public project running so far ahead of schedule. Someone issue some serious congratulations.
    Unfortunately, at present, for perfectly reasonable operational reasons, you have to change at Cornbrook to get to the city centre - not yet enough capacity in the city centre - but a slightly imperfect system way ahead of schedule surely much better than no system at all. Particularly one that stops 8 minutes walk from my house.
    Mind you, the trams on that line are almost totally empty at the moment. But give it time. And it at least means - in contrast to the Altrincham line - that it's possible to get a seat.

    Manchester appears to be a city that is going places. A 2.7million mayoralty, a wonderful team system. It is clearly the Second City, having left Birmingham for dead.
    And yet Birmingham city centre is a much more pleasant place than Manchester. Walking round the latter a few months ago, I was struck that it was still at the grotty partial regeneration stage. In contrast New St, Colmore Row, the Cathedral Square etc., in Bham are fantastic.
    New St Station appears to have been at the "partial regeneration stage" for years!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    SeanT said:

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by one: CON 33%, LAB 34%, LD 7%, UKIP 15%, GRN 6%

    The electorate seems convulsed by immobility.
    Says the would-be MP who was, hitherto, lauding the polls for showing Labour consistently well above 35% for YEARS and YEARS (and of course well ahead of Tories).

    Now you are consistently BELOW 35% and consistently level pegging with the Tories. And you are led by probably the most disliked and disregarded Opposition leader in living memory. And you are facing a Tory party likely to regain votes from from UKIP, a Tory party led by a modestly tolerated and comparatively popular leader, a party likely to benefit from the usual swingback, just as you face mutilation in your Scottish heartland.

    As they say: Good Luck With That.
    You reckon? Certainly the UKIP and SNP assaults have separately drained off some of Labour's share from 35-38 to 30-34, and that's reduced the lead to 1% or so. But the Tory recovery hasn't been going anywhere, even though we're well into the normal swingback period. It's possible that UKIP voters will float over to them, or that the new converts will float back to Labour. Personally I think they'll mostly just stay with UKIP - we are now too close to the election for a major change in that. Labour, Tory and UKIP voters seem (both anecdotally and in the polls) to have largely made their minds up - LibDems rather less so.

    But who knows, really? It's uncharted territory and we are all kidding each other when we claim we know what's happening. That's what makes it such a fascinating period, regardless of whom we actually want to win.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808

    Cookie said:

    Andy JS below mentions the excellent news that the Manchester airport metrolink extension has opened a year early. In fact, I think it's getting on for two years ahead of it's original open date. I can't remember any public project running so far ahead of schedule. Someone issue some serious congratulations.
    Unfortunately, at present, for perfectly reasonable operational reasons, you have to change at Cornbrook to get to the city centre - not yet enough capacity in the city centre - but a slightly imperfect system way ahead of schedule surely much better than no system at all. Particularly one that stops 8 minutes walk from my house.
    Mind you, the trams on that line are almost totally empty at the moment. But give it time. And it at least means - in contrast to the Altrincham line - that it's possible to get a seat.

    Manchester appears to be a city that is going places. A 2.7million mayoralty, a wonderful team system. It is clearly the Second City, having left Birmingham for dead.
    And yet Birmingham city centre is a much more pleasant place than Manchester. Walking round the latter a few months ago, I was struck that it was still at the grotty partial regeneration stage. In contrast New St, Colmore Row, the Cathedral Square etc., in Bham are fantastic.
    New St Station appears to have been at the "partial regeneration stage" for years!
    I grant you BNS is not getting any better despite massive investment, but in that it's only following Manchester Vic that was subject to a wrecking agenda of its own...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    ZenPagan Indeed, will newsnight be investigating rappers too?
  • kle4 said:

    Tapestry said:

    Try an alternative view. Time to drop the poppy and war hero stuff. http://tapnewswire.com/2014/11/drop-the-poppy-and-the-hero-stuff/

    Wearing a Remembrance Day poppy gives the wrong message. Remember those lost, not as heroes but as pointless victims of unjustifiable slaughter, manipulated by a secret cabal of people who will never fight.

    Where have you been for many many years? That's precisely how masses of people remember those lost (not that the people who would never fight were very secret either), as victims of a seminal tragedy of the modern era. Wearing a poppy and recalling the bravery of those who fought heroically (in the individual sense, not in the sense that the war was some glorious contest of noble motives) and died in that quagmire of a war does not mean the lessons are not taken in.

    People can commemorate the fallen however they choose, or not to at all if that is their wish, but I do get confused when people tell me that wearing a poppy sends the wrong message, because the message they tell me it sends does not accord at all with what I believe the message is.

    The stupidity of WW1 and the consequences if anything make it a particular good symbol, to remind people (although not always successfully) not to sleepwalk into such conflicts because it amplifies the tragedy of all wars. Maybe the poppy was just a patriotic propaganda thing once, I wouldn't know, but even if someone decides not to wear one, or wear a white one or something else, the argument you make about what it represents does not seem very credible from where I'm standing.
    Poppies are lovely, but there has been much posturing and bandwagon jumping, even fetishisation, of Remembrance Day in recent years, which I'm not sure is a good trend for an important event.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    kle4 said:

    Tapestry said:

    Try an alternative view. Time to drop the poppy and war hero stuff. http://tapnewswire.com/2014/11/drop-the-poppy-and-the-hero-stuff/

    Wearing a Remembrance Day poppy gives the wrong message. Remember those lost, not as heroes but as pointless victims of unjustifiable slaughter, manipulated by a secret cabal of people who will never fight.

    [...]
    I've never understood this viewpoint. If you think that those serving were "manipulated by a secret cabal of people who will never fight" then Remembrance Day is a great opportunity for the people in power to be forced to consider the millions of lives affected. The original march past of the cenotaph (1920 or 21 I think) was designed to ensure that veterans weren't left behind by government: that the costs of the decision were borne by the decision maker.
  • Cookie said:

    Andy JS below mentions the excellent news that the Manchester airport metrolink extension has opened a year early. In fact, I think it's getting on for two years ahead of it's original open date. I can't remember any public project running so far ahead of schedule. Someone issue some serious congratulations.
    Unfortunately, at present, for perfectly reasonable operational reasons, you have to change at Cornbrook to get to the city centre - not yet enough capacity in the city centre - but a slightly imperfect system way ahead of schedule surely much better than no system at all. Particularly one that stops 8 minutes walk from my house.
    Mind you, the trams on that line are almost totally empty at the moment. But give it time. And it at least means - in contrast to the Altrincham line - that it's possible to get a seat.

    Manchester appears to be a city that is going places. A 2.7million mayoralty, a wonderful team system. It is clearly the Second City, having left Birmingham for dead.
    And yet Birmingham city centre is a much more pleasant place than Manchester. Walking round the latter a few months ago, I was struck that it was still at the grotty partial regeneration stage. In contrast New St, Colmore Row, the Cathedral Square etc., in Bham are fantastic.
    New St Station appears to have been at the "partial regeneration stage" for years!
    I grant you BNS is not getting any better despite massive investment, but in that it's only following Manchester Vic that was subject to a wrecking agenda of its own...
    New St is the worst major station in Britain. It is impossible to move around it and has been a building yard for what seems like centuries.
  • Neil said:



    Airplane! Is my favourite film ever

    Greatest movie ever made.

    "Nervous?"

    "Yes."

    "First time?"

    "No, I've been nervous before."
    Lost count of how many times I've seen it but I do know that it was at least three times before I actually heard all the gags, first time round you are laughing so much you miss the follow up gags.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    I went to see the poppies at the Tower of London on 8th October. On my way there, I took the opportunity to copy this journey. In my case, it took 4 minutes 41 seconds at a normal walking pace.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH_Z8Ghuq6E
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    edited November 2014
    Ninoinoz said:

    isam said:

    "The Tories thought they would crush Ukip's Mark Reckless in Rochester and Strood. But their hubris has come back to haunt them"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11223928/Ukip-success-in-Rochester-wont-surprise-the-Tories.-But-it-should-terrify-them.html

    Matthew Goodwin's thoughts on Rochester:

    http://www.matthewjgoodwin.com/2014/11/where-things-stand-rochester-and-strood.html

    "Labour's capitulation is most likely driven by short-term expediency rather than long-term strategy about how to reconnect with the voters that it needs. Use Ukip as a means of damaging Cameron. But this is a big gamble -for reasons that we set out here. By the time that Rochester and Strood might once again become competitive Ukip may have turned disillusioned left behind voters into loyal Kippers. Much as they are doing in the coastal seat of Clacton -also an area of the country where Labour used to be competitive."

    Voting rebelliously can be addictive.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    For those that criticise the poppy display...this is not how I am saying you should think but it is how I think about it when I wear my poppy proudly

    Those men gave their lives to support what I have today ( even though there are those that want to erode those rights). They gave their rights so that I may have freedom to choose my government, so that I may express myself in freespeech either by the ballot box or by my words. They gave their lives so that I may live (within the laws of the land) in freedom without fear of unjust imprisonment by an overbearing state. Those people I thank on that special day and some of them are my family and that is partly why I get particularly arsey about those who would wrest those rights from me, this unfortunately includes all three of the major parties who wish to see my right to a trial by a jury of my peers curtailed (EAW, 90 day detention, ASBO's etc), my right to speak my mind curtailed via slurs on anyone who doesnt talk the pc talk and my right to democracy curtailed by such acts of terror as the threat of taking our children away for thought crime as happened in Rochester.

    It is time we told these snivelling politicians who think we don't see through them that it our land, our democracy and our decision, we are their masters not their damn servants.

    To those I have offended by these words I don't give a damn!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Some years I don't wear a poppy at all, although I usually buy one. Freedom of choice was one of the main things they were fighting for, (without wishing to sound too philosophical about it).
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    AndyJS said:

    Some years I don't wear a poppy at all, although I usually buy one. Freedom of choice was one of the main things they were fighting for, (without wishing to sound too philosophical about it).

    That is a freedom they fought for certainly which is why I said this is how I think about it and that I am not saying it is how anyone else should think. I certainly won't be the one to walk up to someone and lecture them on why they should wear one.

    I merely wanted to express my personal feelings on the subject

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cookie said:

    Andy JS below mentions the excellent news that the Manchester airport metrolink extension has opened a year early. In fact, I think it's getting on for two years ahead of it's original open date. I can't remember any public project running so far ahead of schedule. Someone issue some serious congratulations.
    Unfortunately, at present, for perfectly reasonable operational reasons, you have to change at Cornbrook to get to the city centre - not yet enough capacity in the city centre - but a slightly imperfect system way ahead of schedule surely much better than no system at all. Particularly one that stops 8 minutes walk from my house.
    Mind you, the trams on that line are almost totally empty at the moment. But give it time. And it at least means - in contrast to the Altrincham line - that it's possible to get a seat.

    I'm going to Manchester Airport in a few days, and since I'll have a bit of spare time I thought I might try out the new line instead of using the normal train.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    I agree broadly with Tap. I never wear one and never engage in the faintly whiffy jingoism surrounding Nov 11th.

    The only poppies of consequence are those still growing here...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntt3wy-L8Ok
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    RodCrosby said:

    I agree broadly with Tap. I never wear one and never engage in the faintly whiffy jingoism surrounding Nov 11th.

    The only poppies of consequence are those still growing here...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntt3wy-L8Ok

    Jingoism is in the eye of the beholder. My grandfather who fought and survived in the second world war told me something I have never forgotten. Though a staunch socialist he said "We went to fight not for socialism nor toryism but the right to be ourselves and believe in what we wanted to believe. As long as you can do that and let everyone else do the same we won, if you ever let that go we fought for nothing"

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited November 2014

    SeanT said:

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by one: CON 33%, LAB 34%, LD 7%, UKIP 15%, GRN 6%

    The electorate seems convulsed by immobility.
    Says the would-be MP who was, hitherto, lauding the polls for showing Labour consistently well above 35% for YEARS and YEARS (and of course well ahead of Tories).

    Now you are consistently BELOW 35% and consistently level pegging with the Tories. And you are led by probably the most disliked and disregarded Opposition leader in living memory. And you are facing a Tory party likely to regain votes from from UKIP, a Tory party led by a modestly tolerated and comparatively popular leader, a party likely to benefit from the usual swingback, just as you face mutilation in your Scottish heartland.

    As they say: Good Luck With That.
    You reckon? Certainly the UKIP and SNP assaults have separately drained off some of Labour's share from 35-38 to 30-34, and that's reduced the lead to 1% or so. But the Tory recovery hasn't been going anywhere, even though we're well into the normal swingback period. It's possible that UKIP voters will float over to them, or that the new converts will float back to Labour. Personally I think they'll mostly just stay with UKIP - we are now too close to the election for a major change in that. Labour, Tory and UKIP voters seem (both anecdotally and in the polls) to have largely made their minds up - LibDems rather less so.

    But who knows, really? It's uncharted territory and we are all kidding each other when we claim we know what's happening. That's what makes it such a fascinating period, regardless of whom we actually want to win.
    I wish I could share your optimism. Although I think you're right that most of the Ukippers won't go back to the Tories (strangely enough, I actually think the Tories' best chance of putting on a couple of extra % on their current poll ratings are trying to pluck off some of the remaining Lib Dem voters), I just can't see how Labour are going to be able to stop their vote continuing to melt away, since they just have so little to "sell" to people apart from "not being the Tories" (a trait shared by countless other parties).

    I remember scoffing when I first saw Innocent Abroad's prediction a while ago, but I now think s/he'll be spot on: the Tories to get a majority despite a voteshare LOWER than in 2010, and lower than any other winning party has got before. Labour to get their worst result (in voteshare) since World War 1.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    May have been discussed (I've been workin'). But have other pb-ers been to the Poppies at the Tower?

    I went last night. It is beautiful, moving and astonishing and, I suspect, the greatest piece of public art I will see in my lifetime.

    This video, with brilliant drone footage of the poppies, has just been seen by 1 million people in a day, on just one website:

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=404817039669967

    Was it open on 4th November? If so, I stupidly missed an opportunity to see it. Got as close as Blackfriars station.
    it's open all day every day (though the floodlighting ends at midnight)

    Definitely go see it if you can. They start taking the poppies away tomorrow, but it should stay fairly spectacular for another week....

    What moved me most is when I noticed how the poppies - all 888,000 of them, representing a hitherto unimaginable 880,000 dead Commonwealth soldiers - each individually nodded in the breeze, like ordinary flowers, yet more so.

    Their individuality was, therefore, subtly accentuated. It was very poignant, and made you realise that each ceramic poppy represented one dead and trembling soul, each poppy was somebody young who loved and laughed and cried and trembled and probably died before he was 25 in Flanders and Gallipoli and the Somme.

    And there are nearly a million of them.

    It's exceptionally clever. And fiercely moving.
    My great-uncle, an Irishman, a doctor and a Lieutenant in the Royal Army Medical Corps, is represented by one of those poppies. He died in September 1915 aged 34.

    I found it very moving to see the Irish Ambassador laying a wreath at the Cenotaph on Sunday for the first time to remember all those Irishmen who fought and died in both World Wars, my father amongst them, a Squadron Leader in the RAF, though he - fortunately - survived.

    My and my children's generations have been very lucky, due in no small part to them.











  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    May have been discussed (I've been workin'). But have other pb-ers been to the Poppies at the Tower?

    I went last night. It is beautiful, moving and astonishing and, I suspect, the greatest piece of public art I will see in my lifetime.

    This video, with brilliant drone footage of the poppies, has just been seen by 1 million people in a day, on just one website:

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=404817039669967

    Was it open on 4th November? If so, I stupidly missed an opportunity to see it. Got as close as Blackfriars station.
    it's open all day every day (though the floodlighting ends at midnight)

    Definitely go see it if you can. They start taking the poppies away tomorrow, but it should stay fairly spectacular for another week....

    What moved me most is when I noticed how the poppies - all 888,000 of them, representing a hitherto unimaginable 880,000 dead Commonwealth soldiers - each individually nodded in the breeze, like ordinary flowers, yet more so.

    Their individuality was, therefore, subtly accentuated. It was very poignant, and made you realise that each ceramic poppy represented one dead and trembling soul, each poppy was somebody young who loved and laughed and cried and trembled and probably died before he was 25 in Flanders and Gallipoli and the Somme.

    And there are nearly a million of them.

    It's exceptionally clever. And fiercely moving.
    My great-uncle, an Irishman, a doctor and a Lieutenant in the Royal Army Medical Corps, is represented by one of those poppies. He died in September 1915 aged 34.

    I found it very moving to see the Irish Ambassador laying a wreath at the Cenotaph on Sunday for the first time to remember all those Irishmen who fought and died in both World Wars, my father amongst them, a Squadron Leader in the RAF, though he - fortunately - survived.

    My and my children's generations have been very lucky, due in no small part to them.

    Many are quick to dismiss their sacrifice. They in my opinion are wrong in their opinion that mere jingoism swayed those men who died in the two wars. You should be proud of what they achieved and despite the fact we are on different sides of the fence on politics I hope you will accept my heartfelt gratitude to your fallen

  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

    The first time I saw "Airplane" was at school, as a treat in the final week at the end of the academic year. So imagine a classroom full of 14-year-old boys all watching the same thing :)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    ZenPagan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    May have been discussed (I've been workin'). But have other pb-ers been to the Poppies at the Tower?

    I went last night. It is beautiful, moving and astonishing and, I suspect, the greatest piece of public art I will see in my lifetime.

    This video, with brilliant drone footage of the poppies, has just been seen by 1 million people in a day, on just one website:

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=404817039669967

    Was it open on 4th November? If so, I stupidly missed an opportunity to see it. Got as close as Blackfriars station.
    it's open all day every day (though the floodlighting ends at midnight)

    Definitely go see it if you can. They start taking the poppies away tomorrow, but it should stay fairly spectacular for another week....

    What moved me most is when I noticed how the poppies - all 888,000 of them, representing a hitherto unimaginable 880,000 dead Commonwealth soldiers - each individually nodded in the breeze, like ordinary flowers, yet more so.

    Their individuality was, therefore, subtly accentuated. It was very poignant, and made you realise that each ceramic poppy represented one dead and trembling soul, each poppy was somebody young who loved and laughed and cried and trembled and probably died before he was 25 in Flanders and Gallipoli and the Somme.

    And there are nearly a million of them.

    It's exceptionally clever. And fiercely moving.
    My great-uncle, an Irishman, a doctor and a Lieutenant in the Royal Army Medical Corps, is represented by one of those poppies. He died in September 1915 aged 34.

    I found it very moving to see the Irish Ambassador laying a wreath at the Cenotaph on Sunday for the first time to remember all those Irishmen who fought and died in both World Wars, my father amongst them, a Squadron Leader in the RAF, though he - fortunately - survived.

    My and my children's generations have been very lucky, due in no small part to them.

    Many are quick to dismiss their sacrifice. They in my opinion are wrong in their opinion that mere jingoism swayed those men who died in the two wars. You should be proud of what they achieved and despite the fact we are on different sides of the fence on politics I hope you will accept my heartfelt gratitude to your fallen

    Thank you. And may I say how much I agree with your post about our freedoms and the snivelling politicians who would curtail them. I could not agree more.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2014
    JohnLoony said:

    By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

    The first time I saw "Airplane" was at school, as a treat in the final week at the end of the academic year. So imagine a classroom full of 14-year-old boys all watching the same thing :)

    I've taken control of a glider for about five minutes.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    ZenPagan said:



    Jingoism is in the eye of the beholder. My grandfather who fought and survived in the second world war told me something I have never forgotten. Though a staunch socialist he said "We went to fight not for socialism nor toryism but the right to be ourselves and believe in what we wanted to believe. As long as you can do that and let everyone else do the same we won, if you ever let that go we fought for nothing"

    No offence, but he no doubt would have still mouthed the same empty words if the elites had sent him to fight against the Russians, the Americans, the Spaniards, the Swedes, or the Swiss...
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    RodCrosby said:

    ZenPagan said:



    Jingoism is in the eye of the beholder. My grandfather who fought and survived in the second world war told me something I have never forgotten. Though a staunch socialist he said "We went to fight not for socialism nor toryism but the right to be ourselves and believe in what we wanted to believe. As long as you can do that and let everyone else do the same we won, if you ever let that go we fought for nothing"

    No offence, but he no doubt would have still mouthed the same empty words if the elites had sent him to fight against the Russians, the Americans, the Spaniards, the Swedes, or the Swiss...
    No offence but what the hell do you know, he volunteered to fight because while he disagreed with the government on many issues he saw that a nazi dominated england would be much worse for his children and grand children. You and I have been fortunate enough never to have been in that position. Don't judge a man till you have walked in his shoes and faced the decisions he had in front of him.

    It is easy to indulge in armchair philosophy when other have already fought your battles for you

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited November 2014
    My other half's paternal grandparents both lost a brother in the Great War, my father in law was named after one of them.
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    May have been discussed (I've been workin'). But have other pb-ers been to the Poppies at the Tower?

    I went last night. It is beautiful, moving and astonishing and, I suspect, the greatest piece of public art I will see in my lifetime.

    This video, with brilliant drone footage of the poppies, has just been seen by 1 million people in a day, on just one website:

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=404817039669967

    Was it open on 4th November? If so, I stupidly missed an opportunity to see it. Got as close as Blackfriars station.
    it's open all day every day (though the floodlighting ends at midnight)

    Definitely go see it if you can. They start taking the poppies away tomorrow, but it should stay fairly spectacular for another week....

    What moved me most is when I noticed how the poppies - all 888,000 of them, representing a hitherto unimaginable 880,000 dead Commonwealth soldiers - each individually nodded in the breeze, like ordinary flowers, yet more so.

    Their individuality was, therefore, subtly accentuated. It was very poignant, and made you realise that each ceramic poppy represented one dead and trembling soul, each poppy was somebody young who loved and laughed and cried and trembled and probably died before he was 25 in Flanders and Gallipoli and the Somme.

    And there are nearly a million of them.

    It's exceptionally clever. And fiercely moving.
    My great-uncle, an Irishman, a doctor and a Lieutenant in the Royal Army Medical Corps, is represented by one of those poppies. He died in September 1915 aged 34.

    I found it very moving to see the Irish Ambassador laying a wreath at the Cenotaph on Sunday for the first time to remember all those Irishmen who fought and died in both World Wars, my father amongst them, a Squadron Leader in the RAF, though he - fortunately - survived.

    My and my children's generations have been very lucky, due in no small part to them.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    @RodCrosby I deleted this before because I knew how angry I was, now I have calmed down I have decided to post it anyway

    My grandfather was an intelligent man though uneducated and able to make his own decisions based on his observations. Your response to me is typical of the political body in this country...he would have fought who he was told to....exactly like the tories think we should vote for them because they told us to or labour and the lib dems the same.

    This attitude stinks frankly not having the benefit of university education does not make a man thick except in your book obviously. Not having the benefit of an upper class upbringing does not make a man uncaring or unknowing of the milieu he lives in. Nor do either of these preclude him from considering his options and making a rational decision.

    Your post robs my grandfather of all volition....my grandfather never did a thing in his life because some elitist arsehole like you told him it was the right thing to do so why dont you take your opinion and shove it up your egotistical gaping arse
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    @all apologies for my harsh language there
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    fitalass said:

    My other half's paternal grandparents both lost a brother in the Great War, my father in law was named after one of them.

    We were lucky. We lost no-one, due to small families/slightly too old/slightly too young at the relevant times, although one or two were nevertheless in the firing line at home or abroad.

    Had we lost someone, I would certainly consider it an utter, pointless waste, and not something to feel 'proud' about in any way at all, except perhaps in the nobility of the specific circumstances of their death.

    To imagine it was all for 'some great cause' is obscene...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Calm down, dears.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    AndyJS said:

    Calm down, dears.

    Sorry while I have no problem with people questioning whether we should have fought the 2 wars that is there right of free speech which I support.

    It does annoy me when people come out with flippant remarks such as "he would have fought who he was told to". That makes it personal and for the record no he wouldn't have he would have said the swiss or the swedish are no danger and if necessary become a conscientious objector.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    ZenPagan said:

    AndyJS said:

    Calm down, dears.

    Sorry while I have no problem with people questioning whether we should have fought the 2 wars that is there right of free speech which I support.

    It does annoy me when people come out with flippant remarks such as "he would have fought who he was told to". That makes it personal and for the record no he wouldn't have he would have said the swiss or the swedish are no danger and if necessary become a conscientious objector.
    "Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
    Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
    Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
    - interview with psychiatrist, 3 January 1946 (Göring was determined to have among the highest IQs of the Nuremberg defendants)
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    RodCrosby said:

    ZenPagan said:


    "Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
    Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
    Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
    - interview with psychiatrist, 3 January 1946 (Göring was determined to have among the highest IQs of the Nuremberg defendants)


    You believe you would be living in the semi liberal state( even now despite the depredations of labour and tories) if the nazi's had conquered britain? War is never pretty. War is often unjustified on that we agree. However sometimes you need to stand up and be counted when a state is so damn awful you don't want them to take control.

    I take it you would rather IS took control of Britain than take up arms against them. The Nazi's were scarcely better as an option. There are times despite your belief in pacifism when force is the right way
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    @RodCrosby

    If we hadnt fought hitler he would have ended up ruling britain, unless you really believe he wouldn't have "wept because there was no more worlds to conquer except britain". Look around PB and tell all those people who would not be here because their fathers and grandfathers and mothers and grandmothers would have become acquainted with Zyklon B and tell them that would be an acceptable quid pro quo for not fighting the second world war
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    ZenPagan said:

    RodCrosby said:

    ZenPagan said:


    "Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
    Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
    Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
    - interview with psychiatrist, 3 January 1946 (Göring was determined to have among the highest IQs of the Nuremberg defendants)


    You believe you would be living in the semi liberal state( even now despite the depredations of labour and tories) if the nazi's had conquered britain? War is never pretty. War is often unjustified on that we agree. However sometimes you need to stand up and be counted when a state is so damn awful you don't want them to take control.

    I take it you would rather IS took control of Britain than take up arms against them. The Nazi's were scarcely better as an option. There are times despite your belief in pacifism when force is the right way
    I have news for you. The Nazis never wanted to conquer Britain, and went to great lengths to reach an accommodation with us both before and after the outbreak of war. Their geopolitical analysis was undoubtedly correct.

    IS don't want to conquer Britain either. They wouldn't be an issue at all for us, but for our disastrous adventurism/immigration policies.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    RodCrosby said:

    ZenPagan said:

    RodCrosby said:

    ZenPagan said:


    "Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
    Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
    Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
    - interview with psychiatrist, 3 January 1946 (Göring was determined to have among the highest IQs of the Nuremberg defendants)


    You believe you would be living in the semi liberal state( even now despite the depredations of labour and tories) if the nazi's had conquered britain? War is never pretty. War is often unjustified on that we agree. However sometimes you need to stand up and be counted when a state is so damn awful you don't want them to take control.

    I take it you would rather IS took control of Britain than take up arms against them. The Nazi's were scarcely better as an option. There are times despite your belief in pacifism when force is the right way
    I have news for you. The Nazis never wanted to conquer Britain, and went to great lengths to reach an accommodation with us both before and after the outbreak of war. Their geopolitical analysis was undoubtedly correct.

    IS don't want to conquer Britain either. They wouldn't be an issue at all for us, but for our disastrous adventurism/immigration policies.
    I have news for you as well because you obviously dont understand it but history teaches us well this lesson. An empire like the third reich that is built on conquest had to continue conquering because when it stops it falls apart. I am sure all those states hitler conquered that he had no intention apparently of conquering and assured them of that felt the same way. His assurances didnt seem to get in the way at the time did they after all originally he only wanted Sudeten back originally he claimed

  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    @rodcrosby

    See here your interpretation of events relies on hitler being truthful. Now in 38 we and the french gave him what he said he wanted.....we took him at his word even though frankly it wasn't ours to give. Tell me again how that worked out for the french? Tell me with a straight face that sooner or later Britain wouldn't have come into his focus.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited November 2014
    ZenPagan said:



    I have news for you as well because you obviously dont understand it but history teaches us well this lesson. An empire like the third reich that is built on conquest had to continue conquering because when it stops it falls apart. I am sure all those states hitler conquered that he had no intention apparently of conquering and assured them of that felt the same way. His assurances didnt seem to get in the way at the time did they after all originally he only wanted Sudeten back originally he claimed

    Just face it. If one or two things had happened differently and/or one or two different people had been in the British cabinet our history would now be lauding Hitler as a great ally (albeit not someone you'd necessarily invite to dinner) against the great(er) Communist evil of Soviet Russia...

    You know, no sooner than the War was over, Churchill, no less, was bemoaning the fact we'd 'slaughtered the wrong pig' and urging the Yanks to nuke (the then non-nuclear) Russia?

    And you think your grandfather knew what the feck he was fighting for?

    Get real...
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    RodCrosby said:

    ZenPagan said:



    I have news for you as well because you obviously dont understand it but history teaches us well this lesson. An empire like the third reich that is built on conquest had to continue conquering because when it stops it falls apart. I am sure all those states hitler conquered that he had no intention apparently of conquering and assured them of that felt the same way. His assurances didnt seem to get in the way at the time did they after all originally he only wanted Sudeten back originally he claimed

    Just face it. If one or two things had happened differently and/or one or two different people had been in the British cabinet our history would now be lauding Hitler as a great ally (albeit not someone you'd necessarily invite to dinner) against the great(er) Communist evil of Soviet Russia...

    You know, no sooner than the War was over, Churchill, no less, was bemoaning the fact we'd 'slaughtered the wrong pig' and urging the Yanks to nuke (the then non-nuclear) Russia?

    Thats a history you want to write is it lauding Hitler? Soviet Russia was indeed a great evil but not one we could necessarily have forseen at the start of the war. Without a second front russia may well have lost and frankly despite your claims I doubt nazi germany would of hesitated because of some understanding. We would have been alone and isolated against a nazi germany and it would not have gone well. Hell if the japanese hadn't bombed pearl harbour we would still probably have been up shit creek.

    They tried appeasement in 38 remember Neville "I have a piece of paper" Chamberlain. To second guess those that were there at a the time and claim it would have gone better is frankly bizarre. We knew hitler, we knew what he was capable of and wanted no part of it. The fact that joe stalin proved even worse is neither here nor there. We didnt and couldn't know that in 39 and like always hindsight is 20 : 20. You have the luxury of writing that now because if I am right about what would have happened you may well not have had the opportunity. Like always people sit in pontificating judgement using things that could not have been known at the time and pass judgement not only on those who made the decisions but those who answered what they considered a just call. Easy to be you isn't it? Not quite as easy for those at the time who were watching hitler march through europe.
  • AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    May have been discussed (I've been workin'). But have other pb-ers been to the Poppies at the Tower?

    I went last night. It is beautiful, moving and astonishing and, I suspect, the greatest piece of public art I will see in my lifetime.

    This video, with brilliant drone footage of the poppies, has just been seen by 1 million people in a day, on just one website:

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=404817039669967

    Was it open on 4th November? If so, I stupidly missed an opportunity to see it. Got as close as Blackfriars station.
    It was open as early as September, though there were fewer poppies back then, when I took this shot:

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/532135900000833537
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    @RodCrosby need to be heading to bed now before I go I wish to apologise for being rude to you and assure you that while we may disagree about things I am more than happy for you to post and I will argue assiduously.

    My animosity was due to you projecting on a man you never knew and that if you had done you would never have made the statement as he was an independent and stubborn minded man.

    Whether we should or should not have fought the wars is however a matter totally open for debate and like all such subjects should be open for debate. That debate may be spirited but should not descend into personal abuse.

    Perhaps you will accept my apology in the understanding of why my vituperative nature came to the fore
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    ZenPagan said:

    @RodCrosby need to be heading to bed now before I go I wish to apologise for being rude to you and assure you that while we may disagree about things I am more than happy for you to post and I will argue assiduously.

    My animosity was due to you projecting on a man you never knew and that if you had done you would never have made the statement as he was an independent and stubborn minded man.

    Whether we should or should not have fought the wars is however a matter totally open for debate and like all such subjects should be open for debate. That debate may be spirited but should not descend into personal abuse.

    Perhaps you will accept my apology in the understanding of why my vituperative nature came to the fore

    No problem. I could not attack a man I never knew. I can only attack a mindset that is easily manipulable by scumbag politicians, and I include myself in that mindset.

    I have no idea what I would have done if ordered to don a uniform and go fight against Germany/Russia/France/Ireland/whoever.

    Probably take the path of least resistance, as all cowards do...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    edited November 2014
    Cookie said:

    Andy JS below mentions the excellent news that the Manchester airport metrolink extension has opened a year early. In fact, I think it's getting on for two years ahead of it's original open date. I can't remember any public project running so far ahead of schedule. Someone issue some serious congratulations.
    Unfortunately, at present, for perfectly reasonable operational reasons, you have to change at Cornbrook to get to the city centre - not yet enough capacity in the city centre - but a slightly imperfect system way ahead of schedule surely much better than no system at all. Particularly one that stops 8 minutes walk from my house.
    Mind you, the trams on that line are almost totally empty at the moment. But give it time. And it at least means - in contrast to the Altrincham line - that it's possible to get a seat.

    London had its first new trams in 2000, in Wimbledon, Croydon and adjoining areas. Not a new line per se, but the section between Mitcham Junction and Beddington Lane is being doubled at this time (section from Mitcham to Mitcham Junction was doubled a couple of years back).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    11) Norman Lamb looks right to me. The amount of deficit around in the NHS is scary, and getting worse.

    At the end of this article there is a list of the biggest deficits, with Leicester in pole position:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/11214162/Doubling-of-NHS-trusts-which-cant-balance-books.html

    A lot of the worst are in the East Midlands.
  • ZenPagan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    Was it open on 4th November? If so, I stupidly missed an opportunity to see it. Got as close as Blackfriars station.

    it's open all day every day (though the floodlighting ends at midnight)

    Definitely go see it if you can. They start taking the poppies away tomorrow, but it should stay fairly spectacular for another week....

    What moved me most is when I noticed how the poppies - all 888,000 of them, representing a hitherto unimaginable 880,000 dead Commonwealth soldiers - each individually nodded in the breeze, like ordinary flowers, yet more so.

    Their individuality was, therefore, subtly accentuated. It was very poignant, and made you realise that each ceramic poppy represented one dead and trembling soul, each poppy was somebody young who loved and laughed and cried and trembled and probably died before he was 25 in Flanders and Gallipoli and the Somme.

    And there are nearly a million of them.

    It's exceptionally clever. And fiercely moving.
    My great-uncle, an Irishman, a doctor and a Lieutenant in the Royal Army Medical Corps, is represented by one of those poppies. He died in September 1915 aged 34.

    I found it very moving to see the Irish Ambassador laying a wreath at the Cenotaph on Sunday for the first time to remember all those Irishmen who fought and died in both World Wars, my father amongst them, a Squadron Leader in the RAF, though he - fortunately - survived.

    My and my children's generations have been very lucky, due in no small part to them.

    Many are quick to dismiss their sacrifice. They in my opinion are wrong in their opinion that mere jingoism swayed those men who died in the two wars. You should be proud of what they achieved and despite the fact we are on different sides of the fence on politics I hope you will accept my heartfelt gratitude to your fallen
    Many of the British soldiers who fought and died were certainly not jingoists, and many would not have been fighting if they felt they had an alternative. Worth remembering that we deployed conscription in both wars, something that was really quite controversial in WWI, so there was a certain amount of coercion that we prefer not to think about now.

    My Grandad was a conscientious objector during WWII, and ended up in the Friends Ambulance Unit with my Grandmother. He said that the soldiers had a lot of respect for them. Many couldn't understand why they had volunteered to be so close to the front line, when they didn't have to be.
  • He's not the brightest spark so anything he says isn't really of much value.
  • ZenPagan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    Was it open on 4th November? If so, I stupidly missed an opportunity to see it. Got as close as Blackfriars station.

    it's open all day every day (though the floodlighting ends at midnight)

    Definitely go see it if you can. They start taking the poppies away tomorrow, but it should stay fairly spectacular for another week....

    What moved me most is when I noticed how the poppies - all 888,000 of them, representing a hitherto unimaginable 880,000 dead Commonwealth soldiers - each individually nodded in the breeze, like ordinary flowers, yet more so.

    Their individuality was, therefore, subtly accentuated. It was very poignant, and made you realise that each ceramic poppy represented one dead and trembling soul, each poppy was somebody young who loved and laughed and cried and trembled and probably died before he was 25 in Flanders and Gallipoli and the Somme.

    And there are nearly a million of them.

    It's exceptionally clever. And fiercely moving.
    My great-uncle, an Irishman, a doctor and a Lieutenant in the Royal Army Medical Corps, is represented by one of those poppies. He died in September 1915 aged 34.

    I found it very moving to see the Irish Ambassador laying a wreath at the Cenotaph on Sunday for the first time to remember all those Irishmen who fought and died in both World Wars, my father amongst them, a Squadron Leader in the RAF, though he - fortunately - survived.

    My and my children's generations have been very lucky, due in no small part to them.

    Many are quick to dismiss their sacrifice. They in my opinion are wrong in their opinion that mere jingoism swayed those men who died in the two wars. You should be proud of what they achieved and despite the fact we are on different sides of the fence on politics I hope you will accept my heartfelt gratitude to your fallen
    Many of the British soldiers who fought and died were certainly not jingoists, and many would not have been fighting if they felt they had an alternative. Worth remembering that we deployed conscription in both wars, something that was really quite controversial in WWI, so there was a certain amount of coercion that we prefer not to think about now.

    My Grandad was a conscientious objector during WWII, and ended up in the Friends Ambulance Unit with my Grandmother. He said that the soldiers had a lot of respect for them. Many couldn't understand why they had volunteered to be so close to the front line, when they didn't have to be.
    In WW1 conscription didn't start until 1916.

    My Grandfather was in the TA on exercise in the summer of '14, he didn't see home again until 1919 via N. Africa, Gallipoli and the Somme. Used to get told to shut up about the war.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Swiss_Bob said:

    ZenPagan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    Was it open on 4th November? If so, I stupidly missed an opportunity to see it. Got as close as Blackfriars station.

    it's open all day every day (though the floodlighting ends at midnight)

    Definitely go see it if you can. They start taking the poppies away tomorrow, but it should stay fairly spectacular for another week....

    What moved me most is when I noticed how the poppies - all 888,000 of them, representing a hitherto unimaginable 880,000 dead Commonwealth soldiers - each individually nodded in the breeze, like ordinary flowers, yet more so.

    Their individuality was, therefore, subtly accentuated. It was very poignant, and made you realise that each ceramic poppy represented one dead and trembling soul, each

    Many are quick to dismiss their sacrifice. They in my opinion are wrong in their opinion that mere jingoism swayed those men who died in the two wars. You should be proud of what they achieved and despite the fact we are on different sides of the fence on politics I hope you will accept my heartfelt gratitude to your fallen
    Many of the British soldiers who fought and died were certainly not jingoists, and many would not have been fighting if they felt they had an alternative. Worth remembering that we deployed conscription in both wars, something that was really quite controversial in WWI, so there was a certain amount of coercion that we prefer not to think about now.

    My Grandad was a conscientious objector during WWII, and ended up in the Friends Ambulance Unit with my Grandmother. He said that the soldiers had a lot of respect for them. Many couldn't understand why they had volunteered to be so close to the front line, when they didn't have to be.
    In WW1 conscription didn't start until 1916.

    My Grandfather was in the TA on exercise in the summer of '14, he didn't see home again until 1919 via N. Africa, Gallipoli and the Somme. Used to get told to shut up about the war.
    My grandfather was called up via the Derby scheme a month before conscription started. He survived the Somme intact and also Mesopotamia. It all rather put him off foreign travel in general and the French in particular.

    I would not exist if he had not come back. I am very glad that he did not die for his country. What I do not know is whether he killed for his country. He certainly was involved in hand to hand combat against both Germans and Turks, so very likely that he did.

    After the war he went back to his office, got married and watched cricket. He did not speak much of the war, though occasionally about Mesopotamia, which he liked apart from the Malaria that he got there.
  • Swiss_Bob said:

    ZenPagan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    My great-uncle, an Irishman, a doctor and a Lieutenant in the Royal Army Medical Corps, is represented by one of those poppies. He died in September 1915 aged 34.

    I found it very moving to see the Irish Ambassador laying a wreath at the Cenotaph on Sunday for the first time to remember all those Irishmen who fought and died in both World Wars, my father amongst them, a Squadron Leader in the RAF, though he - fortunately - survived.

    My and my children's generations have been very lucky, due in no small part to them.

    Many are quick to dismiss their sacrifice. They in my opinion are wrong in their opinion that mere jingoism swayed those men who died in the two wars. You should be proud of what they achieved and despite the fact we are on different sides of the fence on politics I hope you will accept my heartfelt gratitude to your fallen
    Many of the British soldiers who fought and died were certainly not jingoists, and many would not have been fighting if they felt they had an alternative. Worth remembering that we deployed conscription in both wars, something that was really quite controversial in WWI, so there was a certain amount of coercion that we prefer not to think about now.

    My Grandad was a conscientious objector during WWII, and ended up in the Friends Ambulance Unit with my Grandmother. He said that the soldiers had a lot of respect for them. Many couldn't understand why they had volunteered to be so close to the front line, when they didn't have to be.
    In WW1 conscription didn't start until 1916.

    My Grandfather was in the TA on exercise in the summer of '14, he didn't see home again until 1919 via N. Africa, Gallipoli and the Somme. Used to get told to shut up about the war.
    I knew that conscription in WWI didn't start until 1916 - this was partly because it was a controversial decision put off as long as possible. Conscription was seen by many as a reprehensible thing that the autocratic governments of the continent did, which a democracy like Britain should have nothing to do with.
This discussion has been closed.