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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After tonight’s events in the Commons the question that mus

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  • Cameron forced to run back to the Commons from Mansion House in his white tie getup to defend a government position that it seems clear the government didn't understand - who'd want to be Michael Gove tonight?

    You do have to ask just how terrified are they of any public split over yerp to conclude that a non-debate followed by a non-vote would pass inspection.

    Anyway, funny to hear my local MP the delectable Mr Wharton claim that Labour prevented a vote on the arrest warrant. I thought that Bercow stating explicitly there was NO debate or vote on EAW tonight and the massed consternation and uproar off his own benches would have sunk in....
  • Do we think the public care much about tonight's omnishambling?

    The general public won't have an f-ing clue what it was all about.

    Any possible defectors, however, will now have been carried over the line.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics

    YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead by one, Lib Dems and Greens tied in fourth place on 6%: CON 32%, LAB 33%, LD 6%, UKIP 17%, GRN 6%

    Christ,the bad publicity miliband/labour have had in the last week or so,tories still trailing.

    Quite funny really.
  • Socrates said:

    The fault line in the Tory party over the EU could easily be remedied. All it would need is a Tory leader to come out and say "We want to restrict EU migration to 150k a year, opt out the CAP and be able to negotiate our own trade deals. If we don't get two out of the three, I'll campaign for replacing our membership with a free trade deal."

    The whole Tory party, except Ken Clarke, would back that position. UKIP would be neutralised. The public would support it. The Tories would romp home with a good sized majority.

    And yet they refuse to do it. For what purpose? A handful of votes in the European parliament and avoiding country of origin labelling. It's ridiculous.

    This is true only in your wildest dreams. They would certainly romp home to a very good sized majority on such a prospectus, were you the only elector.
  • impartial said:

    Dinner Party this evening
    Europe .... yawn
    Road improvements ...now thats something useful
    Ed PM ....you must be joking!

    Ishmael_X said:

    impartial said:

    Dinner Party this evening
    Europe .... yawn
    Road improvements ...now thats something useful
    Ed PM ....you must be joking!

    And back at 1015? You don't break the record, another poster was home from a dinner party at 9.25 on Saturday.

    In my admittedly limited experience dinner parties don't really get off the ground before 8.30 these days. You must eat jolly fast.

    More's to the point, who hosts dinner parties on Monday evenings? Not recommended
    Think you chaps have missed the irony.
  • BBC executive summary of the Rochester debate - see here from 7.00 until 12.00.

    the Green man got a big round of applause for his attack on the pigdog traitor.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04nvgpn/south-east-today-10112014
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    As far as I can see, no change in the ladbrokes market for next Tory to defect to UKIP, so if you think there's anything in the rebel list might be worth a look?

    Also, no change in the Miliband still lab leader market, so if you think he's bound to stay pile into the 1/6!

    With that, goodnight all!
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Jesus Christ, Nicky Morgan on Newsnight now.....WHY are all these politicians so utterly incapable of speaking vaguely like humanbeings?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    Do we think the public care much about tonight's omnishambling?

    No, but it potentially increases the chance of further defections.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    John Baron, my favourite to defect next, was one of the 38 rebels.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    fitalass said:

    Very poor judgement from Reckless and his team tonight.

    Twitter
    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges now60 seconds ago London, England
    Medway hospital ask Mark Reckless and Ukip not to use them for political purposes. So, true to form, Ukip and Reckless attack the hospital.

    Mark Reckless ‏@MarkReckless 4 mins4 minutes ago
    Questions for Medway Hospital Board http://wp.me/p43U2c-2oe

    I like the way Dan Hodges is out and out Tory ramping these days. Wonder when he will officially come out and admit it?
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    edited November 2014
    Only Hollobone, Bone and Nuttall are possible UKIP defectors from the rebels on the first motion (20/1 or below with Ladbrokes), so it seems that the government annoyed a lot of their more moderate backbenchers with their actions.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Do we think the public care much about tonight's omnishambling?

    No, but all little events add to the general narrative that people form, or the political atmosphere that will inform them, it does have a cumulative effect, and occasionally the little events can strike a chord with a small section of the public for good and ill. The cry of 'no one really cares' is so often true, but it is still somehow overused as well.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    I've got 'hard left' views for my anti-kipper snobbery here on pb too....
    Dude, one of the Kipper idiots on here said, I tolerated child rape so the Tories could do well.

    You can't help but pity people with such a mindset.
    One called Labour, the party that gets your kids raped in front of you

    When i told him I thought this was a disgraceful comment. He accused me of being responsible as I am from S Yorks
    Even though I am not on either count
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    JohnO said:

    The rebels on the substantive vote (Graham Stringer is Labour and Sammy Wilson DUP). At first glance I'd say about half are from the 2010 intake

    Afriyie, Adam
    Baker, Steve
    Barclay, Stephen
    Baron, Mr John
    Brady, Mr Graham
    Bridgen, Andrew
    Cash, Sir William
    Davis, rh Mr David
    de Bois, Nick
    Drax, Richard
    Goldsmith, Zac
    Gray, Mr James
    Heaton-Harris, Chris
    Henderson, Gordon
    Jenkin, Mr Bernard
    Kelly, Chris
    Leigh, Sir Edward
    Lewis, Dr Julian
    Lilley, rh Mr Peter
    Main, Mrs Anne
    McCartney, Jason
    McCartney, Karl
    Mills, Nigel
    Morris, Anne Marie
    Nuttall, Mr David
    Percy, Andrew
    Raab, Mr Dominic
    Redwood, rh Mr John
    Rees-Mogg, Jacob
    Reevell, Simon
    Robertson, Mr Laurence
    Shepherd, Sir Richard
    Stringer, Graham
    Syms, Mr Robert
    Turner, Mr Andrew
    Whittingdale, Mr John
    Wiggin, Bill
    Wilson, Sammy

    Tellers for the Noes:
    Douglas Carswell

    and
    Mr Philip Hollobone

    Hmm, all defector favorites in that list.
  • And I'm going to troll Douglas Carswell tomorrow.

    Ask him if he'll be claiming on expenses for the dry cleaning bill for having his suit trousers cleaned.
    I say comparing Carswell and his fellow pig dog traitor to Judas is unfair.

    Judas had the decency to commit suicide after his betrayal
    You may find a couple more Judas's after today
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    What over ?

    I once said I wouldn't want to live next door to a Muslim family.

    One particularly stupid poster concluded that I was a racist, and was the sort who put burning crosses in the gardens of Muslim families.
    LOL!
    There was also the time another poster, who said I was a BNP supporter, after I had said the following (from before the last election)

    "I hope Nick Griffin wins Barking, mostly so he will be captioned "Nick Griffin, Barking MP" which seems very apt"

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited November 2014

    Socrates said:

    The fault line in the Tory party over the EU could easily be remedied. All it would need is a Tory leader to come out and say "We want to restrict EU migration to 150k a year, opt out the CAP and be able to negotiate our own trade deals. If we don't get two out of the three, I'll campaign for replacing our membership with a free trade deal."

    The whole Tory party, except Ken Clarke, would back that position. UKIP would be neutralised. The public would support it. The Tories would romp home with a good sized majority.

    And yet they refuse to do it. For what purpose? A handful of votes in the European parliament and avoiding country of origin labelling. It's ridiculous.

    This is true only in your wildest dreams. They would certainly romp home to a very good sized majority on such a prospectus, were you the only elector.
    The vast majority of the country wants to repatriate powers, especially immigration control. When we have European elections, the party of out, UKIP, storms home and the party of in, the Lib Dems, gets hammered. When there's a public debate between Farage and Clegg on the two sides, viewers award the win to the out side, and say he has the best arguments. When Cameron vetoed the EU treaty he got a big polling boost. When he refused to take part in the bailouts, he got a polling boost. When he went back on those actions through the backdoor the polling boost melted away. Euroscepticism is popular. You have to be blind to the evidence not to see it.

    If the Tories just got a third of the UKIP vote back - which they could easily if they were eurosceptic and willing to curb immigration properly - they would poll in the high 30s. That would be majority territory.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033

    Do we think the public care much about tonight's omnishambling?

    Probably not too much about the specifics, but they'll be left with a distinct impression of crap-ness.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    What over ?

    I once said I wouldn't want to live next door to a Muslim family.

    One particularly stupid poster concluded that I was a racist, and was the sort who put buIrning crosses in the gardens of Muslim families.
    Don't worry mr eagles,it's happened to me and a big thankyou for your support when it did ;-)

    I bang on about mass immigration when labour were in power and now,poorly posted sometimes by myself I must admit on the subject ;-) and I get called a BNP member ;-)

    This from a guy who voted in Galloway(sorry everyone) and my local respect councillor ;-) I did vote ukip in the European elections though ;-)

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Do we think the public care much about tonight's omnishambling?

    No, but it potentially increases the chance of further defections.
    Well if they don't defect after tonight.....
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    edited November 2014
    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! We shouldn't have to wade through UKIP party diary stuff that is better advertised on twitter?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

  • Interesting to see Graham Stringer in the 38, might he be a Labour Kipper?
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    What over ?

    I once said I wouldn't want to live next door to a Muslim family.

    One particularly stupid poster concluded that I was a racist, and was the sort who put burning crosses in the gardens of Muslim families.
    LOL!
    There was also the time another poster, who said I was a BNP supporter, after I had said the following (from before the last election)

    "I hope Nick Griffin wins Barking, mostly so he will be captioned "Nick Griffin, Barking MP" which seems very apt"

    Please tell me you didn't explain in both instances to said posters and they wandered off in pure ignorance.
  • Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The fault line in the Tory party over the EU could easily be remedied. All it would need is a Tory leader to come out and say "We want to restrict EU migration to 150k a year, opt out the CAP and be able to negotiate our own trade deals. If we don't get two out of the three, I'll campaign for replacing our membership with a free trade deal."

    The whole Tory party, except Ken Clarke, would back that position. UKIP would be neutralised. The public would support it. The Tories would romp home with a good sized majority.

    And yet they refuse to do it. For what purpose? A handful of votes in the European parliament and avoiding country of origin labelling. It's ridiculous.

    This is true only in your wildest dreams. They would certainly romp home to a very good sized majority on such a prospectus, were you the only elector.
    The vast majority of the country wants to repatriate powers, especially immigration control. When we have European elections, the party of out, UKIP, storms home and the party of in, the Lib Dems, gets hammered. When there's a public debate between Farage and Clegg on the two sides, viewers award the win to the out side, and say he has the best arguments. When Cameron vetoed the EU treaty he got a big polling boost. When he refused to take part in the bailouts, he got a polling boost. When he went back on those actions through the backdoor the polling boost melted away. Euroscepticism is popular. You have to be blind to the evidence not to see it.
    Short term sugar rushes over such matters is likely to be replaced by fears, when concerns over jobs and growth come to the fore.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    What over ?

    I once said I wouldn't want to live next door to a Muslim family.

    One particularly stupid poster concluded that I was a racist, and was the sort who put burning crosses in the gardens of Muslim families.
    LOL!
    There was also the time another poster, who said I was a BNP supporter, after I had said the following (from before the last election)

    "I hope Nick Griffin wins Barking, mostly so he will be captioned "Nick Griffin, Barking MP" which seems very apt"

    They could be cunning those BNP supporters, you might have been testing the ground by making a sincere statement but framing it as insincere just in case someone called you out. Stay vigilant comrades.
  • fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! Have you lot not got your party site for stuff like this?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    Well you can always toddle off to Con Home with all the rest of Cameron's swivel-eyed nutters!
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    I've got 'hard left' views for my anti-kipper snobbery here on pb too....
    Dude, one of the Kipper idiots on here said, I tolerated child rape so the Tories could do well.

    You can't help but pity people with such a mindset.
    One called Labour, the party that gets your kids raped in front of you

    When i told him I thought this was a disgraceful comment. He accused me of being responsible as I am from S Yorks
    Even though I am not on either count
    Look, mate.

    If you have the Sheffield Wednesday logo as your avatar, stop complaining when people accuse you of coming from South Yorkshire.
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    What over ?

    I once said I wouldn't want to live next door to a Muslim family.

    One particularly stupid poster concluded that I was a racist, and was the sort who put buIrning crosses in the gardens of Muslim families.
    Don't worry mr eagles,it's happened to me and a big thankyou for your support when it did ;-)

    I bang on about mass immigration when labour were in power and now,poorly posted sometimes by myself I must admit on the subject ;-) and I get called a BNP member ;-)

    This from a guy who voted in Galloway(sorry everyone) and my local respect councillor ;-) I did vote ukip in the European elections though ;-)

    I'll come and defend you and those unfairly accused of an ....ism.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    What over ?

    I once said I wouldn't want to live next door to a Muslim family.

    One particularly stupid poster concluded that I was a racist, and was the sort who put buIrning crosses in the gardens of Muslim families.
    Don't worry mr eagles,it's happened to me and a big thankyou for your support when it did ;-)

    I bang on about mass immigration when labour were in power and now,poorly posted sometimes by myself I must admit on the subject ;-) and I get called a BNP member ;-)

    This from a guy who voted in Galloway(sorry everyone) and my local respect councillor ;-) I did vote ukip in the European elections though ;-)

    You will come HOME eventually Tyke and I will be there ready to shake your hand ;-)
  • Today once again the Tories prove that they are the reincarnation of one of Kenny Everett's most infamous characters!
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    I left ConHom years ago after the UKIPpers moved in and took up residence there making the threads unreadable and genuine debate impossible!!

    fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! Have you lot not got your party site for stuff like this?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    Well you can always toddle off to Con Home with all the rest of Cameron's swivel-eyed nutters!
  • Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    What over ?

    I once said I wouldn't want to live next door to a Muslim family.

    One particularly stupid poster concluded that I was a racist, and was the sort who put burning crosses in the gardens of Muslim families.
    LOL!
    There was also the time another poster, who said I was a BNP supporter, after I had said the following (from before the last election)

    "I hope Nick Griffin wins Barking, mostly so he will be captioned "Nick Griffin, Barking MP" which seems very apt"

    Please tell me you didn't explain in both instances to said posters and they wandered off in pure ignorance.
    I stayed silent, everyone else just laughed at the idiocy of the other posters.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! We shouldn't have to wade through UKIP party diary stuff that is better advertised on twitter?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    That sounds like a member of the political class trying to stifle the voice of the people talking to me! Down with the LaberalCons!

  • fitalass said:

    I left ConHom years ago after the UKIPpers moved in and took up residence there making the threads unreadable and genuine debate impossible!!

    fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! Have you lot not got your party site for stuff like this?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    Well you can always toddle off to Con Home with all the rest of Cameron's swivel-eyed nutters!
    So instead you decided to make the threads on here unreadable with your trite whining!
  • Heart of stone.... hasn't even OGH been down?

    Matthew Goodwin @GoodwinMJ
    Poor Lib Dem candidate. Asked why Clegg and others have not been to Rochester and Strood. "I am sure that somebody will come down".
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Hard to disagree with much of what Patrick O'Flynn said just then.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    The fault line in the Tory party over the EU could easily be remedied. All it would need is a Tory leader to come out and say "We want to restrict EU migration to 150k a year, opt out the CAP and be able to negotiate our own trade deals. If we don't get two out of the three, I'll campaign for replacing our membership with a free trade deal."

    The whole Tory party, except Ken Clarke, would back that position. UKIP would be neutralised. The public would support it. The Tories would romp home with a good sized majority.

    And yet they refuse to do it. For what purpose? A handful of votes in the European parliament and avoiding country of origin labelling. It's ridiculous.

    This is true only in your wildest dreams. They would certainly romp home to a very good sized majority on such a prospectus, were you the only elector.
    The vast majority of the country wants to repatriate powers, especially immigration control. When we have European elections, the party of out, UKIP, storms home and the party of in, the Lib Dems, gets hammered. When there's a public debate between Farage and Clegg on the two sides, viewers award the win to the out side, and say he has the best arguments. When Cameron vetoed the EU treaty he got a big polling boost. When he refused to take part in the bailouts, he got a polling boost. When he went back on those actions through the backdoor the polling boost melted away. Euroscepticism is popular. You have to be blind to the evidence not to see it.
    Short term sugar rushes over such matters is likely to be replaced by fears, when concerns over jobs and growth come to the fore.
    Exactly: fear over the terrible economic performance of the Eurozone (which will continue to get get worse) spreading here, and fear over immigration putting pressure on jobs and wages. Meanwhile the out side can say they will limit immigration, maintain trade, and improve exports to the rest of the world.
  • fitalass said:

    Very poor judgement from Reckless and his team tonight.

    Twitter
    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges now60 seconds ago London, England
    Medway hospital ask Mark Reckless and Ukip not to use them for political purposes. So, true to form, Ukip and Reckless attack the hospital.

    Mark Reckless ‏@MarkReckless 4 mins4 minutes ago
    Questions for Medway Hospital Board http://wp.me/p43U2c-2oe

    I like the way Dan Hodges is out and out Tory ramping these days. Wonder when he will officially come out and admit it?
    My understanding is that he joined Conservative forces some time ago. I think he was a Labour official at some stage, now on the Tory left
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    fitalass said:

    I left ConHom years ago after the UKIPpers moved in and took up residence there making the threads unreadable and genuine debate impossible!!

    fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! Have you lot not got your party site for stuff like this?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    Well you can always toddle off to Con Home with all the rest of Cameron's swivel-eyed nutters!
    Empty vessels make the most noise.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Cameron forced to run back to the Commons from Mansion House in his white tie getup to defend a government position that it seems clear the government didn't understand - who'd want to be Michael Gove tonight?

    You do have to ask just how terrified are they of any public split over yerp to conclude that a non-debate followed by a non-vote would pass inspection.

    Anyway, funny to hear my local MP the delectable Mr Wharton claim that Labour prevented a vote on the arrest warrant. I thought that Bercow stating explicitly there was NO debate or vote on EAW tonight and the massed consternation and uproar off his own benches would have sunk in....

    Here's the video of Cameron:
    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-11-10/government-gets-in-a-mess-over-european-arrest-warrant/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Do we think the public care much about tonight's omnishambling?

    Potential defectors will care.

    How good it is not to be a member of the Conservative party any more!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2014
    This does certainly raise the interesting question of whether the Conservative Party could actually hold together in the lead-up to an EU Referendum. Critics of Cameron have of course this completely the wrong way round; the remarkable thing is not that the party is torn on the subject - it has been for a quarter of a century - but that he has managed (just) to hold the line for nine years.

    I have to say that I don't think one can be confident on this. Critics of Cameron are completely immune to reason, to the point that they are furiously adamant that he is the only obstacle to a referendum in which the British people, fed up with the EU, would triumphantly vote Out! and regain British freedoms, and at the same time want to sabotage the possibility of such a referendum.

    What can be done, faced with such irrationality? The conundrum has defeated four successive Tory leaders, which suggests there is no solution.

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited November 2014
    TGOHF said:

    fitalass said:

    I left ConHom years ago after the UKIPpers moved in and took up residence there making the threads unreadable and genuine debate impossible!!

    fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! Have you lot not got your party site for stuff like this?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    Well you can always toddle off to Con Home with all the rest of Cameron's swivel-eyed nutters!
    Empty vessels make the most noise.
    Have you seen how many posts you've made?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    DavidL said:

    One thing that I have been confused about for a while is how the HoC managed to vote for 35 pieces of EU legislation that we had previously opted out of which have created or, in most cases recreated, new EU competencies without triggering a referendum.

    The European Union Act 2011 is a remarkably complicated piece of legislation but this still strikes me as odd.

    Come on, the Referendum lock was never more than a joke.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! Have you lot not got your party site for stuff like this?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    Well you can always toddle off to Con Home with all the rest of Cameron's swivel-eyed nutters!
    I thought ConHome was really UKIP friendly - has it reverted to type as the election approaches like the Telegraph editorials (allegedly)?

    fitalass said:

    Very poor judgement from Reckless and his team tonight.

    Twitter
    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges now60 seconds ago London, England
    Medway hospital ask Mark Reckless and Ukip not to use them for political purposes. So, true to form, Ukip and Reckless attack the hospital.

    Mark Reckless ‏@MarkReckless 4 mins4 minutes ago
    Questions for Medway Hospital Board http://wp.me/p43U2c-2oe

    I like the way Dan Hodges is out and out Tory ramping these days. Wonder when he will officially come out and admit it?
    My understanding is that he joined Conservative forces some time ago. I think he was a Labour official at some stage, now on the Tory left
    I got the feeling a month or so ago he was starting to worry Labour might still pull off a win - he couldn't dial back his claims of crapness and likely to lose given the extent of his writings on the subject, but it felt like there were pieces which acknowledged that Cameron is really pretty crap at handling UKIP and his party and it just might end up costing him.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    O'Flynn getting getting savaged on Newsnight,no wonder the CBI left them off the invite list.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Ninoinoz said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    I've got 'hard left' views for my anti-kipper snobbery here on pb too....
    Dude, one of the Kipper idiots on here said, I tolerated child rape so the Tories could do well.

    You can't help but pity people with such a mindset.
    One called Labour, the party that gets your kids raped in front of you

    When i told him I thought this was a disgraceful comment. He accused me of being responsible as I am from S Yorks
    Even though I am not on either count
    Look, mate.

    If you have the Sheffield Wednesday logo as your avatar, stop complaining when people accuse you of coming from South Yorkshire.
    The average Owls supporter does not get your kids raped in front of you.

    Even the Asian ones and or the Lab supporting ones, though eh?
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    fitalass said:

    Very poor judgement from Reckless and his team tonight.

    Twitter
    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges now60 seconds ago London, England
    Medway hospital ask Mark Reckless and Ukip not to use them for political purposes. So, true to form, Ukip and Reckless attack the hospital.

    Mark Reckless ‏@MarkReckless 4 mins4 minutes ago
    Questions for Medway Hospital Board http://wp.me/p43U2c-2oe

    I like the way Dan Hodges is out and out Tory ramping these days. Wonder when he will officially come out and admit it?
    My understanding is that he joined Conservative forces some time ago. I think he was a Labour official at some stage, now on the Tory left
    The fact Ed winning meant he missed out on the job David had promised him and he has been very bitter about it ever since. If David had won, this out and out Tory could have been running the Labour campaign as we speak.....***SHUDDERS***
  • This does certainly raise the interesting question of whether the Conservative Party could actually hold together in the lead-up to an EU Referendum. Critics of Cameron have of course this completely the wrong way round; the remarkable thing is not that the party is torn on the subject - it has been for a quarter of a century - but that he has managed (just) to hold the line for nine years.

    I have to say that I don't think one can be confident on this. Critics of Cameron are completely immune to reason, to the point that they are furiously adamant that he is the only obstacle to a referendum in which the British people, fed up with the EU, would triumphantly vote Out! and regain British freedoms, and at the same time want to sabotage the possibility of such a referendum.

    What can be done, faced with such irrationality? The conundrum has defeated four successive Tory leaders, which suggests there is no solution.

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.

    An accurate analysis. The deselecting of troublesome eurosceptics may be a wise strategy for the Caneroons to adopt
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Jonathan said:

    At this rate the proposed EU referendum is going to be a disaster for the Tories.

    Dave will start to take comfort in losing the GE.

    Come to think of it, that might explain current strategy.

    One does wonder.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited November 2014
    kle4 said:

    fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! Have you lot not got your party site for stuff like this?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    Well you can always toddle off to Con Home with all the rest of Cameron's swivel-eyed nutters!
    I thought ConHome was really UKIP friendly - has it reverted to type as the election approaches like the Telegraph editorials (allegedly)?

    fitalass said:

    Very poor judgement from Reckless and his team tonight.

    Twitter
    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges now60 seconds ago London, England
    Medway hospital ask Mark Reckless and Ukip not to use them for political purposes. So, true to form, Ukip and Reckless attack the hospital.

    Mark Reckless ‏@MarkReckless 4 mins4 minutes ago
    Questions for Medway Hospital Board http://wp.me/p43U2c-2oe

    I like the way Dan Hodges is out and out Tory ramping these days. Wonder when he will officially come out and admit it?
    My understanding is that he joined Conservative forces some time ago. I think he was a Labour official at some stage, now on the Tory left
    I got the feeling a month or so ago he was starting to worry Labour might still pull off a win - he couldn't dial back his claims of crapness and likely to lose given the extent of his writings on the subject, but it felt like there were pieces which acknowledged that Cameron is really pretty crap at handling UKIP and his party and it just might end up costing him.
    ConHome has been a Tory backbench mouthpiece since it was bought out by Ashcroft and Tim Montgomerie handed over the reigns to ex-Tory MP Paul Goodman. Or it was the last time I looked. Frankly the articles are so dull I've stopped bothering going there anymore. Goodman's ruined it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Today once again the Tories prove that they are the reincarnation of one of Kenny Everett's most infamous characters!

    Anyone got a different pop cultural analogy for someone who doesn't know who Kenny Everett is? It's like when people starting mocking Cameron as Flashman all over again, I was adrift.

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.

    I thought your refrain was Ed Miliband Will Never Be Prime Minister.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    This does certainly raise the interesting question of whether the Conservative Party could actually hold together in the lead-up to an EU Referendum. Critics of Cameron have of course this completely the wrong way round; the remarkable thing is not that the party is torn on the subject - it has been for a quarter of a century - but that he has managed (just) to hold the line for nine years.

    I have to say that I don't think one can be confident on this. Critics of Cameron are completely immune to reason, to the point that they are furiously adamant that he is the only obstacle to a referendum in which the British people, fed up with the EU, would triumphantly vote Out! and regain British freedoms, and at the same time want to sabotage the possibility of such a referendum.

    What can be done, faced with such irrationality? The conundrum has defeated four successive Tory leaders, which suggests there is no solution.

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.

    An accurate analysis. The deselecting of troublesome eurosceptics may be a wise strategy for the Caneroons to adopt
    You know that the local Tory parties would resist mightily such a thing and if it was ever successful then the eurosceptic MP would defect to UKIP costing the Tories the seat.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    Ninoinoz said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.

    You've missed a 'not' there I believe in quite a significant place....

    Only 38 headbangers left as well post tonight... clever tactics to reveal themselves albeit one was the UKIP man needing a clean pair of pants.
    Oopps

    I'm knucking fackered tonight

    Scrapheap and I's Dry but NOT obsessed with Europe and the Gays new Tory Party probably picked up a few new members this evening.
    You joined the LD?
    The Lib Dems won't have me.
    You are too left wing?
    Please, I've been called on here a far right extremist.
    I've got 'hard left' views for my anti-kipper snobbery here on pb too....
    Dude, one of the Kipper idiots on here said, I tolerated child rape so the Tories could do well.

    You can't help but pity people with such a mindset.
    One called Labour, the party that gets your kids raped in front of you

    When i told him I thought this was a disgraceful comment. He accused me of being responsible as I am from S Yorks
    Even though I am not on either count
    Look, mate.

    If you have the Sheffield Wednesday logo as your avatar, stop complaining when people accuse you of coming from South Yorkshire.
    The average Owls supporter does not get your kids raped in front of you.

    Even the Asian ones and or the Lab supporting ones, though eh?
    You see that is where you went wrong BJO, if you had put a Kopite avatar of Man U avatar, you could never have been accused of being from Liverpool or Manchester.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! We shouldn't have to wade through UKIP party diary stuff that is better advertised on twitter?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    So what are you doing retweeting stuff about Reckless on this thread? Is that not best left on Twitter seeing as it's there in the first place?

    Not thought of a comic variation on Reckless to go with Carsewell yet?

  • Danny565 said:

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.

    I thought your refrain was Ed Miliband Will Never Be Prime Minister.
    You thought wrong.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    What is this crap on ITV and has Gideon just come in from the pissing down rain. Sort your bonce out Baronet.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited November 2014
    kle4 said:

    Today once again the Tories prove that they are the reincarnation of one of Kenny Everett's most infamous characters!

    Anyone got a different pop cultural analogy for someone who doesn't know who Kenny Everett is? It's like when people starting mocking Cameron as Flashman all over again, I was adrift.

    Here you go.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aPrOuPxLno

    And the reason for the Kenny Everett references is this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsokGIeQFFI
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    All in all and in conclusion, today was a very good day not to be a Tory.
    Goodnight.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    fitalass said:

    Are we now going to be subjected to a daily running commentary trailing every UKIP announcement or media appearance that features a UKIP politician on PB?! We shouldn't have to wade through UKIP party diary stuff that is better advertised on twitter?!

    UKIP's Patrick O'Flynn's will be on Newsnight in a bit talking CBI etc.

    The rising Sun attracts more interest than the setting Sun.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    john_zims said:

    O'Flynn getting getting savaged on Newsnight,no wonder the CBI left them off the invite list.

    Hard to tell, 90% of the interview was Evan Davis talking.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578



    I have to say that I don't think one can be confident on this. Critics of Cameron are completely immune to reason, to the point that they are furiously adamant that he is the only obstacle to a referendum in which the British people, fed up with the EU, would triumphantly vote Out! and regain British freedoms, and at the same time want to sabotage the possibility of such a referendum.
    .

    I will say that despite their otherwise boundless confidence and insistence that the British people overwhelmingly dislike the EU (which is true), it is curious to me that it seems to be a common line that merely having a referendum is not enough, because if Cameron is campaigning for In, with the media behind him - that's weak, cowardly, out of touch Cameron and the evil MSM which is increasingly irrelevant btw - the British people will be fooled at the false claims of success about renegotiation and will be tricked into voting In, even though UKIP will be able to point out the lies.

    It's pretty pessimistic if nothing else. I'm hovering on the edge of EU support right now, I'm a hair's breath from just thinking it's not worth the aggravation and that we should get out and deal with the negative consequences when/if they come, but I've always felt Out would win if there were a vote. And clearly our leaders agree, or they would have tried to settle the issue sooner to do away with it as an issue, so why the glumness from UKIP?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    This does certainly raise the interesting question of whether the Conservative Party could actually hold together in the lead-up to an EU Referendum. Critics of Cameron have of course this completely the wrong way round; the remarkable thing is not that the party is torn on the subject - it has been for a quarter of a century - but that he has managed (just) to hold the line for nine years.

    I have to say that I don't think one can be confident on this. Critics of Cameron are completely immune to reason, to the point that they are furiously adamant that he is the only obstacle to a referendum in which the British people, fed up with the EU, would triumphantly vote Out! and regain British freedoms, and at the same time want to sabotage the possibility of such a referendum.

    What can be done, faced with such irrationality? The conundrum has defeated four successive Tory leaders, which suggests there is no solution.

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.

    An accurate analysis. The deselecting of troublesome eurosceptics may be a wise strategy for the Caneroons to adopt
    The best thing that could ever happen to UKIP. 40 or so Conservative MPs would become 40 or so UKIP MP's.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312

    And I'm going to troll Douglas Carswell tomorrow.

    Ask him if he'll be claiming on expenses for the dry cleaning bill for having his suit trousers cleaned.
    I say comparing Carswell and his fellow pig dog traitor to Judas is unfair.

    Judas had the decency to commit suicide after his betrayal
    Yes, that's what Matthew 27:3–10 says.

    But, Acts 1:16-19 mentions he fell and he burst open and had his bowels gush out. Not clear if this was after he hanged himself.

    I'll ask my biblical expert at work for how these two potentially contradictory accounts are reconciled.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.

    I thought your refrain was Ed Miliband Will Never Be Prime Minister.
    You thought wrong.
    Oops, my apologies - I always get you mixed up with JackW!
  • kle4 said:


    I will say that despite their otherwise boundless confidence and insistence that the British people overwhelmingly dislike the EU (which is true), it is curious to me that it seems to be a common line that merely having a referendum is not enough, because if Cameron is campaigning for In, with the media behind him - that's weak, cowardly, out of touch Cameron and the evil MSM which is increasingly irrelevant btw - the British people will be fooled at the false claims of success about renegotiation and will be tricked into voting In, even though UKIP will be able to point out the lies.

    Yes, it's a completely bonkers position. I really can't see how anyone can propose it with a straight face.

    So what do they want? I've been asking for five years but have never had a coherent answer.

    I think one is left with only one possible conclusion: that the BOOers know in their hearts that there actually is very little chance of ever winning an Out vote (that is certainly the case), and so they are just lashing out at Cameron as a displacement activity. That is the only explanation which vaguely fits the facts.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    edited November 2014
    kle4 said:



    I have to say that I don't think one can be confident on this. Critics of Cameron are completely immune to reason, to the point that they are furiously adamant that he is the only obstacle to a referendum in which the British people, fed up with the EU, would triumphantly vote Out! and regain British freedoms, and at the same time want to sabotage the possibility of such a referendum.
    .

    I will say that despite their otherwise boundless confidence and insistence that the British people overwhelmingly dislike the EU (which is true), it is curious to me that it seems to be a common line that merely having a referendum is not enough, because if Cameron is campaigning for In, with the media behind him - that's weak, cowardly, out of touch Cameron and the evil MSM which is increasingly irrelevant btw - the British people will be fooled at the false claims of success about renegotiation and will be tricked into voting In, even though UKIP will be able to point out the lies.

    It's pretty pessimistic if nothing else. I'm hovering on the edge of EU support right now, I'm a hair's breath from just thinking it's not worth the aggravation and that we should get out and deal with the negative consequences when/if they come, but I've always felt Out would win if there were a vote. And clearly our leaders agree, or they would have tried to settle the issue sooner to do away with it as an issue, so why the glumness from UKIP?
    I don't see that. Euroscepticism is widely held in the country, but not deeply held. After a referendum campaign in which - as you say - all politicians, all the mainstream media and all big business leaders (the fat cats at the CBI) hammer away at the so-called negative effects on the economy of EU withdrawal, 'In' would win with ease.

    Importantly, 'In' would be a vote for the status quo - which, though I've got not stats to support it, I bet normally wins referendum votes.

    The British people are a cautious bunch. Any spin from Cameron would easily work, IMO, if nothing else because people don't understand - or much care about - the details.
  • Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.

    I thought your refrain was Ed Miliband Will Never Be Prime Minister.
    You thought wrong.
    Oops, my apologies - I always get you mixed up with JackW!
    I'm half his age!

    JackW is 120. Or so.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    kle4 said:

    Today once again the Tories prove that they are the reincarnation of one of Kenny Everett's most infamous characters!

    Anyone got a different pop cultural analogy for someone who doesn't know who Kenny Everett is? It's like when people starting mocking Cameron as Flashman all over again, I was adrift.

    Today parliament was like a metaphor of this chess fight:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhTYJGjc2g

    Goodnight.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Too many people on this 'Battle for Rochester and Strood' panel. And the chair seems to be doing most of the talking.
  • Ninoinoz said:

    And I'm going to troll Douglas Carswell tomorrow.

    Ask him if he'll be claiming on expenses for the dry cleaning bill for having his suit trousers cleaned.
    I say comparing Carswell and his fellow pig dog traitor to Judas is unfair.

    Judas had the decency to commit suicide after his betrayal
    Yes, that's what Matthew 27:3–10 says.

    But, Acts 1:16-19 mentions he fell and he burst open and had his bowels gush out. Not clear if this was after he hanged himself.

    I'll ask my biblical expert at work for how these two potentially contradictory accounts are reconciled.
    IIRC, in The Passion of the Christ, Mel Gibson reconciled that, by Judas hanging himself, but the rope snapping, and he falling to the ground, and his bowels gushed out as his body did not cope well with the fall to the ground.
  • On topic no the party will never resolve its differences and will slowly destroy itself until it becomes an irrelevance.

    Today Cameron proved his true Blairite nature. It was shameful. I only wonder whether it might have precipitated a few more letters to the 1922 committee. From a Kipper viewpoint it was a marvelous day. How stupid are the Tories to give UKIP the perfect event to use to discredit the referendum promise?

    And with that I too am going to depart!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    This does certainly raise the interesting question of whether the Conservative Party could actually hold together in the lead-up to an EU Referendum. Critics of Cameron have of course this completely the wrong way round; the remarkable thing is not that the party is torn on the subject - it has been for a quarter of a century - but that he has managed (just) to hold the line for nine years.

    I have to say that I don't think one can be confident on this. Critics of Cameron are completely immune to reason, to the point that they are furiously adamant that he is the only obstacle to a referendum in which the British people, fed up with the EU, would triumphantly vote Out! and regain British freedoms, and at the same time want to sabotage the possibility of such a referendum.

    What can be done, faced with such irrationality? The conundrum has defeated four successive Tory leaders, which suggests there is no solution.

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.

    The problem is one can't believe Cameron on anything. He marches up to the top of the Hill over the £1.7 bn demand, and then he marches back down again; he introduces a referendum lock, but it doesn't apply when powers over criminal justice are handed over to the EU; he promises a vote on the EAW to the Commons and then May reneges on Ghis promise.

    Cameron and co. are as trustworthy as Elmer Gantry.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    WTF is wrong with Osbournes hair.

    It looks like he has cut it by 50%

    gets coat
  • kle4 said:


    I will say that despite their otherwise boundless confidence and insistence that the British people overwhelmingly dislike the EU (which is true), it is curious to me that it seems to be a common line that merely having a referendum is not enough, because if Cameron is campaigning for In, with the media behind him - that's weak, cowardly, out of touch Cameron and the evil MSM which is increasingly irrelevant btw - the British people will be fooled at the false claims of success about renegotiation and will be tricked into voting In, even though UKIP will be able to point out the lies.

    Yes, it's a completely bonkers position. I really can't see how anyone can propose it with a straight face.

    So what do they want? I've been asking for five years but have never had a coherent answer.

    I think one is left with only one possible conclusion: that the BOOers know in their hearts that there actually is very little chance of ever winning an Out vote (that is certainly the case), and so they are just lashing out at Cameron as a displacement activity. That is the only explanation which vaguely fits the facts.
    I want out.

    I want to bring back grammar schools.

    I want to end Common Purpose and Bilderberg.

    Coherent enough?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    While it would not halt their level of momentum at this point, it would be pretty hilarious if after all this nonsense the Tories managed to win in this by-election. Imagine the reactions of some MP poised to defect, suddenly uncertain once more, and deciding that perhaps they should just go on being a Tory MP, even as they act as a UKIP MP once they get reelected, just without the official label.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    What is this crap on ITV and has Gideon just come in from the pissing down rain. Sort your bonce out Baronet.

    Playing right into Farage's hands - this haircut is a huge boost for Ukip drone drone blah blah...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    kle4 said:


    I will say that despite their otherwise boundless confidence and insistence that the British people overwhelmingly dislike the EU (which is true), it is curious to me that it seems to be a common line that merely having a referendum is not enough, because if Cameron is campaigning for In, with the media behind him - that's weak, cowardly, out of touch Cameron and the evil MSM which is increasingly irrelevant btw - the British people will be fooled at the false claims of success about renegotiation and will be tricked into voting In, even though UKIP will be able to point out the lies.

    Yes, it's a completely bonkers position. I really can't see how anyone can propose it with a straight face.

    So what do they want? I've been asking for five years but have never had a coherent answer.

    I think one is left with only one possible conclusion: that the BOOers know in their hearts that there actually is very little chance of ever winning an Out vote (that is certainly the case), and so they are just lashing out at Cameron as a displacement activity. That is the only explanation which vaguely fits the facts.
    Given that you want a massive vote to stay in the EU, so these wretched eurosceptics will go away, why do you think eurosceptics should play on your terms?

  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801

    kle4 said:



    I have to say that I don't think one can be confident on this. Critics of Cameron are completely immune to reason, to the point that they are furiously adamant that he is the only obstacle to a referendum in which the British people, fed up with the EU, would triumphantly vote Out! and regain British freedoms, and at the same time want to sabotage the possibility of such a referendum.
    .

    I will say that despite their otherwise boundless confidence and insistence that the British people overwhelmingly dislike the EU (which is true), it is curious to me that it seems to be a common line that merely having a referendum is not enough, because if Cameron is campaigning for In, with the media behind him - that's weak, cowardly, out of touch Cameron and the evil MSM which is increasingly irrelevant btw - the British people will be fooled at the false claims of success about renegotiation and will be tricked into voting In, even though UKIP will be able to point out the lies.

    It's pretty pessimistic if nothing else. I'm hovering on the edge of EU support right now, I'm a hair's breath from just thinking it's not worth the aggravation and that we should get out and deal with the negative consequences when/if they come, but I've always felt Out would win if there were a vote. And clearly our leaders agree, or they would have tried to settle the issue sooner to do away with it as an issue, so why the glumness from UKIP?
    I don't see that. Euroscepticism is widely held in the country, but not deeply held. After a referendum campaign in which - as you say - all politicians, all the mainstream media and all big business leaders (the fat cats at the CBI) hammer away at the so-called negative effects on the economy of EU withdrawal, 'In' would win with ease.

    Importantly, 'In' would be a vote for the status quo - which, though I've got not stats to support it, I bet normally wins referendum votes.

    The British people are a cautious bunch. Any spin from Cameron would easily work, IMO, if nothing else because people don't understand - or much care about - the details.
    In Scotland yes improved on its share, don't underestimate how hated the media political elite is. Business won't be uniform on the issue either.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564



    I don't see that. Euroscepticism is widely held in the country, but not deeply held. After a referendum campaign in which - as you say - all politicians, all the mainstream media and all big business leaders (the fat cats at the CBI) hammer away at the so-called negative effects on the economy of EU withdrawal, 'In' would win with ease.

    Importantly, 'In' would be a vote for the status quo - which, though I've got not stats to support it, I bet normally wins referendum votes.

    The British people are a cautious bunch. Any spin from Cameron would easily work, IMO, if nothing else because people don't understand - or much care about - the details.

    That's a very accurate summary, I think.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    kle4 said:


    I will say that despite their otherwise boundless confidence and insistence that the British people overwhelmingly dislike the EU (which is true), it is curious to me that it seems to be a common line that merely having a referendum is not enough, because if Cameron is campaigning for In, with the media behind him - that's weak, cowardly, out of touch Cameron and the evil MSM which is increasingly irrelevant btw - the British people will be fooled at the false claims of success about renegotiation and will be tricked into voting In, even though UKIP will be able to point out the lies.

    Yes, it's a completely bonkers position. I really can't see how anyone can propose it with a straight face.

    So what do they want? I've been asking for five years but have never had a coherent answer.

    I think one is left with only one possible conclusion: that the BOOers know in their hearts that there actually is very little chance of ever winning an Out vote (that is certainly the case), and so they are just lashing out at Cameron as a displacement activity. That is the only explanation which vaguely fits the facts.
    I want out.

    I want to bring back grammar schools.

    I want to end Common Purpose and Bilderberg.

    Coherent enough?
    Your a maybe then!!
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    Sean_F said:

    This does certainly raise the interesting question of whether the Conservative Party could actually hold together in the lead-up to an EU Referendum. Critics of Cameron have of course this completely the wrong way round; the remarkable thing is not that the party is torn on the subject - it has been for a quarter of a century - but that he has managed (just) to hold the line for nine years.

    I have to say that I don't think one can be confident on this. Critics of Cameron are completely immune to reason, to the point that they are furiously adamant that he is the only obstacle to a referendum in which the British people, fed up with the EU, would triumphantly vote Out! and regain British freedoms, and at the same time want to sabotage the possibility of such a referendum.

    What can be done, faced with such irrationality? The conundrum has defeated four successive Tory leaders, which suggests there is no solution.

    All the more reason, I fear, for thinking that we at severe risk of a decade or more of weak and disastrous Labour-led government.

    The problem is one can't believe Cameron on anything. He marches up to the top of the Hill over the £1.7 bn demand, and then he marches back down again; he introduces a referendum lock, but it doesn't apply when powers over criminal justice are handed over to the EU; he promises a vote on the EAW to the Commons and then May reneges on Ghis promise.

    Cameron and co. are as trustworthy as Elmer Gantry.
    All tactics and no strategy
  • Sean_F said:

    The problem is one can't believe Cameron on anything. He marches up to the top of the Hill over the £1.7 bn demand, and then he marches back down again; he introduces a referendum lock, but it doesn't apply when powers over criminal justice are handed over to the EU; he promises a vote on the EAW to the Commons and then May reneges on Ghis promise.

    Cameron and co. are as trustworthy as Elmer Gantry.

    Poppycock, he has always done exactly what he said he would do on the EU.

    - He promised to take the party out of the EPP group. Lots of people said he wouldn't. He did.

    - He said he would vote for a referendum on Lisbon. He did.

    - He promised he would not 'let the matter rest' there. He has been true to that.

    - He said he would implement the Referendum Lock. Done, and dusted, and part of UK law.

    - He said he would veto EU treaty change in 2011. He did.

    - He said we wouldn't be paying the £1.7bn demanded for 1st December, but would pay a lot less. He's negotiated that.

    - He promised to get reforms on the EAW. Done, with the three main objections addressed.

    - He promised a vote on the EAW before the by-election. We had it tonight.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AndrewCooper__: "I have never stood for the leadership of my party & regardless of the circumstances, I never will" Alan Johnson. Game over for Labour, then
  • Scott_P said:

    @AndrewCooper__: "I have never stood for the leadership of my party & regardless of the circumstances, I never will" Alan Johnson. Game over for Labour, then

    Only Cruddas could save them now
  • If anyone does defect to UKIP now or after next week's by-election, would they resign and call a by-election (which would be close to Christmas), wait and call one in the New Year, or stay put until the GE? And can UKIP MPs move the writ? (Yes I know any MP can but the convention is the ex-MP's party does it).
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @KLE4

    'Cameron is campaigning for In, with the media behind him - that's weak, cowardly, out of touch Cameron and the evil MSM which is increasingly irrelevant btw - the British people will be fooled at the false claims of success about renegotiation and will be tricked into voting In, even though UKIP will be able to point out the lies.'

    Spot on,add to that Cameron is crap at negotiating, the referendum would be basically mid term when governments are at their height of unpopularity and after another round of austerity.

    A perfect storm and yet they still can't win.

    The realty is that UKIP enjoy the gravy train just as much as the rest of the political elite,the result of a referendum,one way or another, would be their demise..
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    TGOHF said:

    What is this crap on ITV and has Gideon just come in from the pissing down rain. Sort your bonce out Baronet.

    Playing right into Farage's hands - this haircut is a huge boost for Ukip drone drone blah blah...
    The best thing an anti-Ukipper has said in several threads.
  • kle4 said:


    I will say that despite their otherwise boundless confidence and insistence that the British people overwhelmingly dislike the EU (which is true), it is curious to me that it seems to be a common line that merely having a referendum is not enough, because if Cameron is campaigning for In, with the media behind him - that's weak, cowardly, out of touch Cameron and the evil MSM which is increasingly irrelevant btw - the British people will be fooled at the false claims of success about renegotiation and will be tricked into voting In, even though UKIP will be able to point out the lies.

    Yes, it's a completely bonkers position. I really can't see how anyone can propose it with a straight face.

    So what do they want? I've been asking for five years but have never had a coherent answer.

    I think one is left with only one possible conclusion: that the BOOers know in their hearts that there actually is very little chance of ever winning an Out vote (that is certainly the case), and so they are just lashing out at Cameron as a displacement activity. That is the only explanation which vaguely fits the facts.
    I want out.

    I want to bring back grammar schools.

    I want to end Common Purpose and Bilderberg.

    Coherent enough?
    Your a maybe then!!
    LOL
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Managed two mins of listening to Kelly Tolhurst before having to mute... The Tories would have done better to get the labour candidate to stand for them, she was quite impressive

    As for the betting, someone is asking for two grand at 1.1 ukip, so it doesn't look like there's too much too worry about for us kipperoonies

    Have the tories started to ore tend they weren't reakky trying in Rochester yet?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited November 2014
    Sean_F said:

    Given that you want a massive vote to stay in the EU, so these wretched eurosceptics will go away, why do you think eurosceptics should play on your terms?

    Why on earth do you think I want a 'massive vote to stay in the EU'? You Kippers are so obsessed you can't understand a sensible position, or distinguish a prediction from a wish.

    I've repeatedly said that I think the balance of the argument is moving towards leaving; my final vote in any referendum would depend on the terms of the renegotiation. In the absence of sufficient protection for the City, I'd probably vote to leave. Of course the Out side would have to make a coherent case, which so far they are signally failing to do, or even attempt.

    However, how I would vote doesn't alter the fact that the referendum would produce a big Stay In result. It's not a winnable proposition. The jobs argument will be politically unanswerable (whether it is true or not is irrelevant).
  • Sean_F said:

    Given that you want a massive vote to stay in the EU, so these wretched eurosceptics will go away, why do you think eurosceptics should play on your terms?

    Why on earth do you think I want a 'massive vote to stay in the EU'? You Kippers are so obsessed you can't understand a sensible position, or distinguish a prediction from a wish.

    I've repeatedly said that I think the balance of the argument is moving towards leaving; my final vote in any referendum would depend on the terms of the renegotiation. In the absence of sufficient protection for the City, I'd probably vote to leave.

    However, that doesn't alter the fact that the referendum would produce a big Stay In result. It's not a winnable proposition. The jobs argument will be politically unanswerable (whether it is true or not is irrelevant).
    We are no more obsessed than you.

    Anyway, I am apparently the first kipper in five years to tell you what I want, happy now?
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917

    Sean_F said:

    Given that you want a massive vote to stay in the EU, so these wretched eurosceptics will go away, why do you think eurosceptics should play on your terms?

    Why on earth do you think I want a 'massive vote to stay in the EU'? You Kippers are so obsessed you can't understand a sensible position, or distinguish a prediction from a wish.

    I've repeatedly said that I think the balance of the argument is moving towards leaving; my final vote in any referendum would depend on the terms of the renegotiation. In the absence of sufficient protection for the City, I'd probably vote to leave.

    However, that doesn't alter the fact that the referendum would produce a big Stay In result. It's not a winnable proposition. The jobs argument will be politically unanswerable (whether it is true or not is irrelevant).
    That too is my belief. I can only see the UK leaving the EU if there was some great European economic meltdown that threatened to drag us down with it, when all other arguments would be overriden.

    As a eurosceptic, my only hope is that the EU crumbles of its own accord, as the UK ain't leaving it first.
  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312
    john_zims said:


    The realty is that UKIP enjoy the gravy train just as much as the rest of the political elite,the result of a referendum,one way or another, would be their demise..

    Just like the Irish Nationalists, Parti Quebecois and those Scots Nats who are about to be wiped out in Scotland at the next election.

    As long as the EU is in permanent recession, people will question the value of its continued existence.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917

    If anyone does defect to UKIP now or after next week's by-election, would they resign and call a by-election (which would be close to Christmas), wait and call one in the New Year, or stay put until the GE? And can UKIP MPs move the writ? (Yes I know any MP can but the convention is the ex-MP's party does it).

    Even if convention allowed, no one would call a by-election so close to the GE, they would be - quite rightly - punished at the ballot box for wasting people's time.
  • That too is my belief. I can only see the UK leaving the EU if there was some great European economic meltdown that threatened to drag us down with it, when all other arguments would be overriden.

    As a eurosceptic, my only hope is that the EU crumbles of its own accord, as the UK ain't leaving it first.

    My best hope is that we might be able gently to disengage, but that would require the EU itself to split more decisively into a central Eurozone core, and a looser set of non-Eurozone members. There was a time a couple of years ago when that looked quite a likely possibility. It looks less likely now, but it might re-appear since the structural problems of the Eurozone have not been addressed.
  • to answer the question in the original tweet, yes, at 4.17am.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    Yes when all the Euro nutters have left it.
This discussion has been closed.