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    Mr. Lilburne, definitions often seem amorphous and there appears to be a trend to enlarge the groups affected. Poverty is a horrendously perfect example of this.

    I really do think the Roman approach to things was in many ways better. Low tax, very simple, don't pay and you get a legion marching over your face. Simplicity works far better than the tangled mess of complexity we have now.

    IDS' effort for a single benefit payment may fail, but that's exactly the right sort of endeavour we need.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,411
    Thanks to John Lilburne for the corrections, and he's right that I oughtn't to mix these things up - I've been out of practice for 4 years...
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Pong said:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2818640/Teenage-pupil-pleads-guilty-classroom-murder-teacher-Ann-Maguire.html

    This case really is tragic.

    I hope the parents and school take responsibility for how this kid got to this point. If your kid has to pretend that everything is fine on the surface, when they're falling apart underneath, then you're doing something seriously wrong.

    RIP Ann Maguire.


    "I hope the parents and school take responsibility for how this kid got to this point."

    Eh?

    This kid is in all likelyhood severely mentally ill.. how is it the fault of the parents or school?
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Tax credits subsidise employers who are paying shite wages

    Someone working full time for minimum wage has £1300 of their wage confiscated by the state in taxation. That isn't business reducing their spending money. It's the state.

    All those lovely taxes that drive up the price of petrol, electricity, beer, cigarettes, clothes, insurance, sanitary towels aren't imposed by business. It's the state.

    The state acts to devalue the wage given by business by imposing income tax and NI, yet simultaneously increases the individual's cost of living by adding taxes to what they consume.

    Without those taxes, the wages given would go much further and reduce or eliminate the need for tax credit.


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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    Allypally Polls show the Dems hanging onto NH too, LA and GA may well go to run-offs

    LA will almost certainly go to a run-off, funnily enough for Landrieu would probably prefer the GOP to win the senate tonight, so the GOP can't play the run-off as having national implications.
    LA has 2 yes 2 Republicans running. Landrieu will probably win tonight for that reason. But she will lose the runoff next month. She's on the wrong side of the issues there. It is one of the worst hit states by Obamacare increases, and she supported Obama's energy policies, which have hit the state hard.

    My home state I think might go Republican tonight. I have yet to see a Michelle Nunn sign anywhere.
    What are Obama's energy policies? He's overseen a massive expansion of shale gas fracking and is about to see the US become a net exporter of energy. I'd say that isn't a bad really!
    He hasn't overseen anything. He stopped oil and gas exploration on federal lands and stopped issuing offshore drilling permits. That's what's hurting LA. All the expansion was on private land - in spite of Obama.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    So Tories do envy then?

    One man's envy is another man's fairness.

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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    An issue with disability is that it applies so broadly that people quite able to work in most ways (deaf in one ear, or missing their smallest two fingers on one hand) might fall under its umbrella, but so do the most severely affected people, such as your brother.

    A remarkably precise example, Mr Dancer, which applies directly to my family.
    My brother is officially registered as disabled in the UK for missing the two smallest fingers on his left hand. The equivalent two fingers to those of Boris Yeltsin who lost his whilst playing with a live hand grenade, as it happens, but I digress.

    It doesn't make the slightest difference to his life apart from background frustration at no longer being able to play the saxophone. But it's useful when applying for jobs that have quotas to fill.

    Disability is indeed a very broad spectrum. Not all of the Disabled are disabled.

    Surely the concept of being "registered disabled" was abolished several years ago, and disability is now defined as "if you have a physical or mental impairment that has a ‘substantial’ and ‘long-term’ negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities." https://www.gov.uk/definition-of-disability-under-equality-act-2010 Which I doubt would cover your brother.
    Yes I am sure you are right. A couple of decades ago I seem to remember he got a very small monthly allowance that he collected from the post office using a book of tickets. Then the criteria for such things changed slightly and that stopped.
    My memory of it is patchy now 20 years on but many thanks for your link to what happens these days. Interesting background info, cheers.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,282
    saddened said:

    chestnut said:

    WTC subsidise shite employers.

    The golden generation have had all the money, are generally wealthier than hard working people in poorly paid jobs, and still whinge at their lot in life.

    Tax Credits are a symptom of over taxation.

    People drawing pensions they paid for aren't the problem; it's people drawing pensions that they didn't pay for that are. Pension credit and public sector workers.

    So Tories do envy then?
    They envy people who are perfectly healthy retiring at 54. But to be fair you have dedicated your entire life to the NHS.
    Strange comment. i worked hard for 32 years in the NHS doing what I could to ensure patients got good care from the resources available. I also saved hard so i could afford to retire at maybe 56ish
    Lansley was the main reason i went earlier than planned. Not prepared to work for him. Also this Govt tripling pension contributions to provide an even more generous final salary pension made 54 right for me!!!
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Just seen today's Washington Post. Remember today is election day. The front page above the fold headline is "Where did Obama go wrong?"

    Today of all days.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Well I've got my POLITICO election map up and nothing is yet happening. Not tweet, not a purr, bugger all.
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    chestnut said:

    WTC subsidise shite employers.

    The golden generation have had all the money, are generally wealthier than hard working people in poorly paid jobs, and still whinge at their lot in life.

    Tax Credits are a symptom of over taxation.

    People drawing pensions they paid for aren't the problem; it's people drawing pensions that they didn't pay for that are. Pension credit and public sector workers.

    So Tories do envy then?
    They envy people who are perfectly healthy retiring at 54. But to be fair you have dedicated your entire life to the NHS.
    Strange comment. i worked hard for 32 years in the NHS doing what I could to ensure patients got good care from the resources available. I also saved hard so i could afford to retire at maybe 56ish
    Lansley was the main reason i went earlier than planned. Not prepared to work for him. Also this Govt tripling pension contributions to provide an even more generous final salary pension made 54 right for me!!!
    So you are quite happy to siphon funds out of your beloved NHS and away from patients for the next 30 years but are happy to criticize people who are working hard to pay the tax that makes it possible. There's a name for that.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    MikeK said:

    Well I've got my POLITICO election map up and nothing is yet happening. Not tweet, not a purr, bugger all.

    You've got probably over 4 hours to wait
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    I think that one thing we can all agree on is the importance of helping the self-employed, as Ed Miliband rightly (if extremely vaguely) promised during his memorable speech recently.

    *cough*
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,282
    chestnut said:

    Tax credits subsidise employers who are paying shite wages

    Someone working full time for minimum wage has £1300 of their wage confiscated by the state in taxation. That isn't business reducing their spending money. It's the state.

    All those lovely taxes that drive up the price of petrol, electricity, beer, cigarettes, clothes, insurance, sanitary towels aren't imposed by business. It's the state.

    The state acts to devalue the wage given by business by imposing income tax and NI, yet simultaneously increases the individual's cost of living by adding taxes to what they consume.

    Without those taxes, the wages given would go much further and reduce or eliminate the need for tax credit.


    Minimum wage is £6.31 per hour.

    That is too low IMO employers are taking the piss.

    It equates to £13,520pa

    Tax would be £704 pa unless you are classing FT as more than 40 hrs
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,281
    AllyPallyTimB Virtually all Georgia polls have it heading for a run-off and PPP has it tied, Louisiana will also likely go to a run-off. Personally I think the GOP could end up with 50 seats tonight excluding the run-off states, that means whatever happens the best the Dems can do is 48, so what the run-offs would really determine is whether it is McConnell or Orman who controls the Senate, that would make things interesting!
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    I think that one thing we can all agree on is the importance of helping the self-employed, as Ed Miliband rightly (if extremely vaguely) promised during his memorable speech recently.

    *cough*


    Helping the self-employed? Didn't Ed give 2p to one recently?

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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,282

    chestnut said:

    Tax credits subsidise employers who are paying shite wages

    Someone working full time for minimum wage has £1300 of their wage confiscated by the state in taxation. That isn't business reducing their spending money. It's the state.

    All those lovely taxes that drive up the price of petrol, electricity, beer, cigarettes, clothes, insurance, sanitary towels aren't imposed by business. It's the state.

    The state acts to devalue the wage given by business by imposing income tax and NI, yet simultaneously increases the individual's cost of living by adding taxes to what they consume.

    Without those taxes, the wages given would go much further and reduce or eliminate the need for tax credit.


    Minimum wage is £6.50 per hour.

    That is too low IMO employers are taking the piss.

    It equates to £13,520pa

    Tax would be £704 pa unless you are classing FT as more than 40 hrs
    Min wage hrly rate edited all calculations were based on this rate
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Watching a remote from Iowa. They are handing out huge paper ballots.

    I guess not everywhere is Gwinnett County
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    chestnut said:

    Tax credits subsidise employers who are paying shite wages

    Someone working full time for minimum wage has £1300 of their wage confiscated by the state in taxation. That isn't business reducing their spending money. It's the state.

    All those lovely taxes that drive up the price of petrol, electricity, beer, cigarettes, clothes, insurance, sanitary towels aren't imposed by business. It's the state.

    The state acts to devalue the wage given by business by imposing income tax and NI, yet simultaneously increases the individual's cost of living by adding taxes to what they consume.

    Without those taxes, the wages given would go much further and reduce or eliminate the need for tax credit.


    Minimum wage is £6.31 per hour.

    That is too low IMO employers are taking the piss.

    It equates to £13,520pa

    Tax would be £704 pa unless you are classing FT as more than 40 hrs
    National Insurance as well.

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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    MikeK said:

    Well I've got my POLITICO election map up and nothing is yet happening. Not tweet, not a purr, bugger all.

    The Fox election map doesn't start until 9pm EST which is I think 2am your time so I doubt politico will be much earlier than that.
    I'll be at Fox and at the Ace Of Spades Decision Desk which is probably mounting the biggest real-time crowd-sourcing of in-running and results. Breitbart might be doing something but haven't seen anything trailed.
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    GeoffM said:

    An issue with disability is that it applies so broadly that people quite able to work in most ways (deaf in one ear, or missing their smallest two fingers on one hand) might fall under its umbrella, but so do the most severely affected people, such as your brother.

    A remarkably precise example, Mr Dancer, which applies directly to my family.
    My brother is officially registered as disabled in the UK for missing the two smallest fingers on his left hand. The equivalent two fingers to those of Boris Yeltsin who lost his whilst playing with a live hand grenade, as it happens, but I digress.

    It doesn't make the slightest difference to his life apart from background frustration at no longer being able to play the saxophone. But it's useful when applying for jobs that have quotas to fill.

    Disability is indeed a very broad spectrum. Not all of the Disabled are disabled.

    Surely the concept of being "registered disabled" was abolished several years ago, and disability is now defined as "if you have a physical or mental impairment that has a ‘substantial’ and ‘long-term’ negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities." https://www.gov.uk/definition-of-disability-under-equality-act-2010 Which I doubt would cover your brother.
    I have been disabled since a car crash in 1978, I have sciatic nerve palsy. I have never bothered to register and never claimed a penny, and when I needed a hip replacement I paid for it as the NHS were not prepared to do it as I was too young (35).

    i have a relative who has a blue badge and a mobility scooter even though there is piss all wrong with them, and I know someone who claimed £100 a week DLA while working as a bouncer at the weekends

    I don't think I could get a blue badge even if I wanted one as I am not prepared to lie on the form, however the system is wide open to abuse as highlighted by the two pounces mentioned above.
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    Mr. Hopkins, not sure begging counts as a profession.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    GeoffM said:

    MikeK said:

    Well I've got my POLITICO election map up and nothing is yet happening. Not tweet, not a purr, bugger all.

    The Fox election map doesn't start until 9pm EST which is I think 2am your time so I doubt politico will be much earlier than that.
    I'll be at Fox and at the Ace Of Spades Decision Desk which is probably mounting the biggest real-time crowd-sourcing of in-running and results. Breitbart might be doing something but haven't seen anything trailed.
    Let me know what you're wearing and I'll watch for you :-)
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,282
    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    chestnut said:

    WTC subsidise shite employers.

    The golden generation have had all the money, are generally wealthier than hard working people in poorly paid jobs, and still whinge at their lot in life.

    Tax Credits are a symptom of over taxation.

    People drawing pensions they paid for aren't the problem; it's people drawing pensions that they didn't pay for that are. Pension credit and public sector workers.

    So Tories do envy then?
    They envy people who are perfectly healthy retiring at 54. But to be fair you have dedicated your entire life to the NHS.
    Strange comment. i worked hard for 32 years in the NHS doing what I could to ensure patients got good care from the resources available. I also saved hard so i could afford to retire at maybe 56ish
    Lansley was the main reason i went earlier than planned. Not prepared to work for him. Also this Govt tripling pension contributions to provide an even more generous final salary pension made 54 right for me!!!
    So you are quite happy to siphon funds out of your beloved NHS and away from patients for the next 30 years but are happy to criticize people who are working hard to pay the tax that makes it possible. There's a name for that.
    My life expectancy was quoted as 50 by a Dr when I was 40. He was clearly wrong (bloody NHS)

    So i doubt 30 years. In fact will be lucky to reach state pension age of 67.

    "happy to criticize people who are working hard to pay the tax that makes it possible!"

    Not sure what you mean.

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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I am starting to wonder if Sadiq Khan esq might be vulnerable in Tooting next year....
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    saddened said:

    chestnut said:

    WTC subsidise shite employers.

    The golden generation have had all the money, are generally wealthier than hard working people in poorly paid jobs, and still whinge at their lot in life.

    Tax Credits are a symptom of over taxation.

    People drawing pensions they paid for aren't the problem; it's people drawing pensions that they didn't pay for that are. Pension credit and public sector workers.

    So Tories do envy then?
    They envy people who are perfectly healthy retiring at 54. But to be fair you have dedicated your entire life to the NHS.
    Strange comment. i worked hard for 32 years in the NHS doing what I could to ensure patients got good care from the resources available. I also saved hard so i could afford to retire at maybe 56ish
    Lansley was the main reason i went earlier than planned. Not prepared to work for him. Also this Govt tripling pension contributions to provide an even more generous final salary pension made 54 right for me!!!
    Did you have a clinical role within the NHS or were you part of the bureaucratic blight that has come to dominate the service ?
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    chestnut said:

    WTC subsidise shite employers.

    The golden generation have had all the money, are generally wealthier than hard working people in poorly paid jobs, and still whinge at their lot in life.

    Tax Credits are a symptom of over taxation.

    People drawing pensions they paid for aren't the problem; it's people drawing pensions that they didn't pay for that are. Pension credit and public sector workers.

    So Tories do envy then?
    They envy people who are perfectly healthy retiring at 54. But to be fair you have dedicated your entire life to the NHS.
    Strange comment. i worked hard for 32 years in the NHS doing what I could to ensure patients got good care from the resources available. I also saved hard so i could afford to retire at maybe 56ish
    Lansley was the main reason i went earlier than planned. Not prepared to work for him. Also this Govt tripling pension contributions to provide an even more generous final salary pension made 54 right for me!!!
    Did you have a clinical role within the NHS or were you part of the bureaucratic blight that has come to dominate the service ?
    I think we all know the answer to that question. I'll leave this alone now because people like him irritate me and I'll say something I regret.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Tim_B said:

    GeoffM said:

    MikeK said:

    Well I've got my POLITICO election map up and nothing is yet happening. Not tweet, not a purr, bugger all.

    The Fox election map doesn't start until 9pm EST which is I think 2am your time so I doubt politico will be much earlier than that.
    I'll be at Fox and at the Ace Of Spades Decision Desk which is probably mounting the biggest real-time crowd-sourcing of in-running and results. Breitbart might be doing something but haven't seen anything trailed.
    Let me know what you're wearing and I'll watch for you :-)
    LOL! Carnation in my lapel, wearing a homburg, carrying a copy of The Times :)

    I'll be active in a few liveblogs though. I usually take part actively at redstate.com but aoshq.com instead this year I think if they put a live chat up.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    taffys said:

    I am starting to wonder if Sadiq Khan esq might be vulnerable in Tooting next year....

    Labour got a fright there in 1987, IIRC.

    But London's a very different place now. Labour's grasp of it is tightening inexorably...
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,282

    chestnut said:

    Tax credits subsidise employers who are paying shite wages

    Someone working full time for minimum wage has £1300 of their wage confiscated by the state in taxation. That isn't business reducing their spending money. It's the state.

    All those lovely taxes that drive up the price of petrol, electricity, beer, cigarettes, clothes, insurance, sanitary towels aren't imposed by business. It's the state.

    The state acts to devalue the wage given by business by imposing income tax and NI, yet simultaneously increases the individual's cost of living by adding taxes to what they consume.

    Without those taxes, the wages given would go much further and reduce or eliminate the need for tax credit.


    Minimum wage is £6.31 per hour.

    That is too low IMO employers are taking the piss.

    It equates to £13,520pa

    Tax would be £704 pa unless you are classing FT as more than 40 hrs
    National Insurance as well.

    Correct an extra £635 pa so £1339pa in total. No wonder people need tax credits!!
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    New thread.
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    isam said:

    Pong said:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2818640/Teenage-pupil-pleads-guilty-classroom-murder-teacher-Ann-Maguire.html

    This case really is tragic.

    I hope the parents and school take responsibility for how this kid got to this point. If your kid has to pretend that everything is fine on the surface, when they're falling apart underneath, then you're doing something seriously wrong.

    RIP Ann Maguire.


    "I hope the parents and school take responsibility for how this kid got to this point."

    Eh?

    This kid is in all likelyhood severely mentally ill.. how is it the fault of the parents or school?
    He has to be mentally ill, doesn't he? Like, we *need* him to be mentally ill, because it absolves everyone of responsibility and makes us feel normal and safe and totally nothing like that subhuman monster.

    And then it happens again. And again.

    We can condemn these kids as psychopathic freaks, or we can seek to understand what got them to the point where it made sense for them to kill someone.

    He could have been any of our kids, and that's what is so frightening.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,233
    MikeK said:
    By contrast, look at the vitriol poured on him for it by the Daily Mail:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2820467/Nigel-Farage-visits-Tower-London-poppies-installation-thousands-continue-ignore-pleas-stay-away-t-handle-crowds.html

    'Something in your eye Nigel?'

    The piece virtually accuses him of trying to cause another Hillsborough. So pathetic.
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    TapestryTapestry Posts: 153
    SNP - against fracking
    Greens - against fracking

    Biggest gainers of the month

    LibLabCon and UKIP - all pro-fracking

    Fading away.
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    TapestryTapestry Posts: 153
    SNP - against fracking
    Greens - against fracking

    Biggest gainers of the month

    LibLabCon and UKIP - all pro-fracking

    Fading away.

    It's funny how people vote for those who don't want their living environment destroyed, and won't vote for those who do want it destroyed. Well might Farage shed a tear over WW1's dead. How about the people he'll also be wiping away with toxic attack, if he gets elected and into a ministerial position to press ahead with the environmental destruction of Britain.

    Smithson hasn't looked at how fracking's becoming the pivotal though unspoken subject of the coming May 8th election.
This discussion has been closed.