Can someone please explain why all the Conservative venom has been directed at Reckless and none at Carswell? I understand the former is a lot less personally popular in tory circles than the latter but I don't see how Reckless has been any more or less "treacherous" than Carswell. Of course he lied about his intentions (so did Carswell, albeit much less recently) that's what defectors do before they defect, it's no excuse for tory self-righteousness.
Defectors lie, that's to be expected.
It was the timing of it.
Maximised to destabilise the Tory conference is what has earned him the ire of the Tory party.
Short of defecting during David Cameron's speech, I can't think of a more damaging time to defect.
I also despise Reckless, because I was guest editing PB the day he defected.
That Saturday I wanted a quiet Saturday afternoon, he and later Brooks Newmark's todger derailed that plan.
Carswell was always independently minded. Reckless wasn't.
Reckless was more of a Tory Establishment figure: Oxford PPE and CCHQ, so perhaps the sense of betrayal was greater. Carswell went to the University of East Anglia, wherever that is.
You're projecting.
I was absolutely gutted by Carswell's defection, he's always been a thinker, and some of his policies and articles/books/pamphlets are great reading.
You might not always agree with his conclusions, but everyone agrees, that he's put a lot of thought and research into it.
I'd be similarly gutted if Dan Hannan defected.
Ultimately Carswell's defection, will be more damaging to the Tory Party than Reckless' defection.
Yes, I suspect Carswell found the grind of Tory politics just too dull and stifling, and decided he wanted to acquire a party of his own to play in. It will be interesting to see how his reform of UKIP pans out. He will want to make it ultra-tolerant of immigration and diversity for a start - part of his aim to turn Britain into the global capitalist crossroads of the planet.
"... So London is left with just Kempton and Sandown now, although happily both are prospering."
Point of order Mr. Chairman, both Kempton and Sandown are in Surrey not London. Kempton Park is essentially just over the river from the old Hurst Park course and Sandown is in Esher.
London does not have a horse racing course.
I have been to Sandown amongst the 31 tracks i have visited so far.
I certainly rank it in my top 5.
Not yet visited Kempton but i intend to at some point during this NH season.Any meeting you recommend?
On these matters I don't think you can go far wrong with following Mr. Punter's recommendations. For myself I detest Ascot, not keen on Goodwood (though I have done well there) and am not a National Hunt fan (too damn cold). I do like the smaller courses though. I think possibly my favourite is Windsor, especially for evening meetings - nothing special but it just has a nice atmosphere about it. I do also enjoy a day out at Plumpton, my local course, If ever you decide to get down to it do let me know in advance and I'll buy you a glass or three.
I like Goodwood, if only for the stunning view across the Sussex Downs. And I'm a NH man, as you probably know. But I do like Windsor - hot summer evenings, cool breeze from the river, champagne, beautiful girls down from the City........Where was I? Oh, yes; Plumpton. Very good. Love it.
See you there one day?
A PB outing to Plumpton races? That sounds a jolly idea! Get Mr Owls down from his northern fastness, maybe a few others from the other side of Watford, the London/Surrey crowd are within an easy train ride then there are the Sussex contingent. Could be a spiffing day out.
That sounds like a good idea.
Sandown is my most Southerly track so far Plumpton sounds good and definitely preferable to Nicks hotel room!!!
Martinez was one of my long-range long odds punts many moons ago, but I've heard little of her since and had assumed she is not in the running.
The other name I don't know, but since I seem to have backed 75% of the field already, I'll let this one pass.
Incidentally, I like the name. Does it commemorate the eponymous racetrack that once thrived in North London?
Alexandra Palace surely?
Correct, Sir! That's ten points to you, and for a bonus twenty, name the other London track closed since WW2.
(No peeking at Wiki.)
Walthamstow Dogs?
Sorry Charles, I meant horseracing, and the track I had in mind was Hurst Park (though strictly it is in Surrey.)
The Greyhound Racing track at Walthamstow has, sadly, also been closed down. It was one of the best tracks in country right to the end.
I know.
Just wanted to demonstrated to @isam that I'm a man of the people, I am
;-)
Oh if you're a racing man, Charles, you are a member of an elite, regardless of wealth or background.
It is one of life's little ironies that whilst racing, and betting, condemn many to poverty, it helped my family to escape it. My Dad was well-known for decades as one of the shrewdest punters at Clapton dogs, so despite being working-class in every normal respect we were very comfortably off throughout my entire upbringing.
I'm not in his class, but I like to think I am carrying on a family tradition when I'm betting, here and of course at the racetrack.
Not really a racing man, to be honest. I love riding, of course, but would rather go out to Eastern Europe or Scandinavia and ride through the countryside
My grandfather's game was bridge - he got thrown out of Christchurch for too much time spent at the table. top tip for the future: never take £1,000 (1920s money) off the Dean of College the night before he is chairing the panel that is deciding whether to send you down...
Well I envy you the riding, Charles.
Never played cards for serious money, though perhaps I should. I was taught, again, by my father who himself learned in The World's Greatest Card School - the British Army.
The BBC is reporting that No 10 is floating a points system for EU migration... not just an emergency brake.
I am no expert, but wouldn't the changing of a treaty like that trigger a referendum anyway?
Actually that's the Labour and LibDem line I think
They obviously are going to pretend they can do the points based system as the candidates for R&S were bigging it up last night
You are forgetting Article 352 of the Lisbon treaty otherwise known as the enabling clause. If it suits the Commission they can make changes on the fly without changing the Treaty. I suspect that as long as the Council is happy with it and the EPP and the Socialists are on side then it wouldn't be a problem.
Stark As its immigration stance is its most popular policy his chances of that are barely more than 0. The success of the Cleggite LDs in trying to combine economic and social liberalism shows how little mileage there is in that
Sandown is my most Southerly track so far Plumpton sounds good and definitely preferable to Nicks hotel room!!!
Sorry Nick I enjoyed it really.
There seems to be some support for a PB visit to the races. It needn't involve many; if we could muster half a dozen, that would do fine.
Plenty of suitable venues have been suggested - Plumpton, Windsor, Brighton, Sandown and Towcester would all work well in their different ways. I'd add Southwell, which is a featureless course in a flat, unattractive location, but it is very customer-friendly. It's not far from Nottingham, so maybe we could drag NickP along.
Sandown is my most Southerly track so far Plumpton sounds good and definitely preferable to Nicks hotel room!!!
Sorry Nick I enjoyed it really.
There seems to be some support for a PB visit to the races. It needn't involve many; if we could muster half a dozen, that would do fine.
Plenty of suitable venues have been suggested - Plumpton, Windsor, Brighton, Sandown and Towcester would all work well in their different ways. I'd add Southwell, which is a featureless course in a flat, unattractive location, but it is very customer-friendly. It's not far from Nottingham, so maybe we could drag NickP along.
Martinez was one of my long-range long odds punts many moons ago, but I've heard little of her since and had assumed she is not in the running.
The other name I don't know, but since I seem to have backed 75% of the field already, I'll let this one pass.
Incidentally, I like the name. Does it commemorate the eponymous racetrack that once thrived in North London?
Alexandra Palace surely?
Correct, Sir! That's ten points to you, and for a bonus twenty, name the other London track closed since WW2.
(No peeking at Wiki.)
Walthamstow Dogs?
Sorry Charles, I meant horseracing, and the track I had in mind was Hurst Park (though strictly it is in Surrey.)
The Greyhound Racing track at Walthamstow has, sadly, also been closed down. It was one of the best tracks in country right to the end.
I know.
Just wanted to demonstrated to @isam that I'm a man of the people, I am
;-)
Oh if you're a racing man, Charles, you are a member of an elite, regardless of wealth or background.
It is one of life's little ironies that whilst racing, and betting, condemn many to poverty, it helped my family to escape it. My Dad was well-known for decades as one of the shrewdest punters at Clapton dogs, so despite being working-class in every normal respect we were very comfortably off throughout my entire upbringing.
I'm not in his class, but I like to think I am carrying on a family tradition when I'm betting, here and of course at the racetrack.
Not really a racing man, to be honest. I love riding, of course, but would rather go out to Eastern Europe or Scandinavia and ride through the countryside
My grandfather's game was bridge - he got thrown out of Christchurch for too much time spent at the table. top tip for the future: never take £1,000 (1920s money) off the Dean of College the night before he is chairing the panel that is deciding whether to send you down...
Well I envy you the riding, Charles.
Never played cards for serious money, though perhaps I should. I was taught, again, by my father who himself learned in The World's Greatest Card School - the British Army.
Strange you should say that, my Dad bless him was by no means educated, he had to leave school at 13 to support his family. However he was brilliant at Solo, which is Bridge without partners, and he learnt in the Army.
FalseFlag 1 poll, Shaheen leads Brown by 3.5% in the RCP poll average
Last one had him leading for the first time, he has the momentum after being so far behind. His anti immigration stance is bringing in the odious Zuckerberg to finance ads against him. An interesting one, could be another Cantoresque upset.
UKIP topped the poll in May winning all three Stocksbridge (Sheffield) wards Demographics are very good for UKIP There will be reverberations from Rotherham in this constituency
Any Party would feel uncomfortable about losing someone of Carswell's intellectual stature. Combine this with his obviously excellent status as a community MP and you have a serious loss for the Tories.
Reckless is not in the same category, however. Assuming Reckless wins (and I'm not convinced he will) he will lose next May. This is not the case with Carswell, who I suspect may well remain their sole representative.
Martinez was one of my long-range long odds punts many moons ago, but I've heard little of her since and had assumed she is not in the running.
The other name I don't know, but since I seem to have backed 75% of the field already, I'll let this one pass.
Incidentally, I like the name. Does it commemorate the eponymous racetrack that once thrived in North London?
Alexandra Palace surely?
Correct, Sir! That's ten points to you, and for a bonus twenty, name the other London track closed since WW2.
(No peeking at Wiki.)
Walthamstow Dogs?
Sorry Charles, I meant horseracing, and the track I had in mind was Hurst Park (though strictly it is in Surrey.)
The Greyhound Racing track at Walthamstow has, sadly, also been closed down. It was one of the best tracks in country right to the end.
I know.
Just wanted to demonstrated to @isam that I'm a man of the people, I am
;-)
Oh if you're a racing man, Charles, you are a member of an elite, regardless of wealth or background.
It is one of life's little ironies that whilst racing, and betting, condemn many to poverty, it helped my family to escape it. My Dad was well-known for decades as one of the shrewdest punters at Clapton dogs, so despite being working-class in every normal respect we were very comfortably off throughout my entire upbringing.
I'm not in his class, but I like to think I am carrying on a family tradition when I'm betting, here and of course at the racetrack.
Not really a racing man, to be honest. I love riding, of course, but would rather go out to Eastern Europe or Scandinavia and ride through the countryside
My grandfather's game was bridge - he got thrown out of Christchurch for too much time spent at the table. top tip for the future: never take £1,000 (1920s money) off the Dean of College the night before he is chairing the panel that is deciding whether to send you down...
Christ Church not Christchurch, and if Julian White gambled with undergraduates, never mind gambled sums_like that, I am the Queen of Sheba.
What centrist / centre left voter doesn't like Blue on Blue?
*popcorn*
Well we need to keep you pervs occupied....
Old hugh joined here the day after tim left, last December.... but all his posts up until July have been deleted...
So have tim's, and tim is the only poster who no longer posts who doesn't exist on vanilla at all... flushed down the memory hole
How come I wonder?
You spend far too much time worrying about the internet, Woolfie. Are you the far-right's official savvy or what?
Anyway haven't Mods put a stop to this "guess the Tim" bullcrap?
haha "Bullcrap" hahaha
Don't worry, I am not guessing
Yes you are.
It seems, and none of us save perhaps Mike actually know the full story, that Tim doesn't post any more because of PB Rightwingers threatening him and his family by maliciously revealing details etc.
What centrist / centre left voter doesn't like Blue on Blue?
*popcorn*
Well we need to keep you pervs occupied....
Old hugh joined here the day after tim left, last December.... but all his posts up until July have been deleted...
So have tim's, and tim is the only poster who no longer posts who doesn't exist on vanilla at all... flushed down the memory hole
How come I wonder?
You spend far too much time worrying about the internet, Woolfie. Are you the far-right's official savvy or what?
Anyway haven't Mods put a stop to this "guess the Tim" bullcrap?
haha "Bullcrap" hahaha
Don't worry, I am not guessing
Yes you are.
It seems, and none of us save perhaps Mike actually know the full story, that Tim doesn't post any more because of PB Rightwingers threatening him and his family by maliciously revealing details etc.
How welcoming and civilised.
Well, we both know that isn't true, but never mind
You been in Thurrock today? Loads of lefties smearing/telling lies and throwing abuse about because they haven't got any policies, thought it might be you?
Any Party would feel uncomfortable about losing someone of Carswell's intellectual stature. Combine this with his obviously excellent status as a community MP and you have a serious loss for the Tories.
Reckless is not in the same category, however. Assuming Reckless wins (and I'm not convinced he will) he will lose next May. This is not the case with Carswell, who I suspect may well remain their sole representative.
Sandown is my most Southerly track so far Plumpton sounds good and definitely preferable to Nicks hotel room!!!
Sorry Nick I enjoyed it really.
There seems to be some support for a PB visit to the races. It needn't involve many; if we could muster half a dozen, that would do fine.
Plenty of suitable venues have been suggested - Plumpton, Windsor, Brighton, Sandown and Towcester would all work well in their different ways. I'd add Southwell, which is a featureless course in a flat, unattractive location, but it is very customer-friendly. It's not far from Nottingham, so maybe we could drag NickP along.
I will be there. My closest track is Southwell but i would prefer a further a field one so i can justify a night away.
Mrs BJ likes racing but unfortunately she will be working and besides she hates politics.
What centrist / centre left voter doesn't like Blue on Blue?
*popcorn*
Well we need to keep you pervs occupied....
Old hugh joined here the day after tim left, last December.... but all his posts up until July have been deleted...
So have tim's, and tim is the only poster who no longer posts who doesn't exist on vanilla at all... flushed down the memory hole
How come I wonder?
You spend far too much time worrying about the internet, Woolfie. Are you the far-right's official savvy or what?
Anyway haven't Mods put a stop to this "guess the Tim" bullcrap?
haha "Bullcrap" hahaha
Don't worry, I am not guessing
Yes you are.
It seems, and none of us save perhaps Mike actually know the full story, that Tim doesn't post any more because of PB Rightwingers threatening him and his family by maliciously revealing details etc.
How welcoming and civilised.
Well, we both know that isn't true, but never mind
You been in Thurrock today? Loads of lefties smearing/telling lies and throwing abuse about because they haven't got any policies, thought it might be you?
Not me.
The left does have a proud tradition throughout history of standing up to the Establishment and the far-right though. I don't expect that to stop any time soon.
Any Party would feel uncomfortable about losing someone of Carswell's intellectual stature. Combine this with his obviously excellent status as a community MP and you have a serious loss for the Tories.
Reckless is not in the same category, however. Assuming Reckless wins (and I'm not convinced he will) he will lose next May. This is not the case with Carswell, who I suspect may well remain their sole representative.
I think it could be a tight three way battle next May if Reckless wins narrowly.
Dear God. Solo whist is a fine game but to describe it as Bridge without partners is akin to describing the daubs of a five year old as the paintings of the renaissance masters without the clever bits.
'This is possible if, and only if, Labour lose more votes to the Tories, UKIP and the Greens then they gain from the Lib Dems.'
You don't think Labour are going to lose votes to the SNP?
You don't think that the Labour vote is 'soft' as indicated in polling over the last 12 months?
Scotland is a whole different ball game, so I do most of my psephological thinking in an England-only framework.
In any case, Labour losing votes to the SNP doesn't help the Tories in the marginal Lab-Con and Con-Lab seats that will decide the election, because none of them are in Scotland.
I do think that the Labour vote is soft and it is possible that the condition I laid down will occur.
Just a quickie to say thanx again for the Swing-ish recommendations from last night. I've got half a dozen tracks from Pokey LaFarge added to my collection - I think that was Nigel's suggestion.
If you haven't come across Clarence Frogman Henry - he's totally brilliant, the Sam Cooke of Swing. I've about 35 of his now and he's in that lovely space between Big Band and the plinky fussy stuff from Louis Armstrong. One of his most well known is (I Don't Know Why I Love You) But I Do.
Been trying to work out why I've got a soft spot for Swing. I've finally twigged - it's all those Tom & Jerry cartoons.
Scotland could be the big surprise,the SNP seem to keep on defying the odds winning an outright majority in 2011,getting huge swathes of Labour voters to ignore their party and vote 'Yes' and then losing the referendum but gaining thousands of new members.
I agree Scotland won't help the Tories but it won't help Labour if they take a big hit there and have to rely on picking up even more seats in England.
Dear God. Solo whist is a fine game but to describe it as Bridge without partners is akin to describing the daubs of a five year old as the paintings of the renaissance masters without the clever bits.
I remember my wife stating 'Royal Abundance Declared' on my right. Realising she had 13 cards of one suit and was on lead (after a goulash) I called 'Misere Ouvere'.
Dear God. Solo whist is a fine game but to describe it as Bridge without partners is akin to describing the daubs of a five year old as the paintings of the renaissance masters without the clever bits.
Well that's how it seemed to me at the time, though I was young! Isn't the basic premise the same in that you have to bid how many tricks you will get, solo, mizerahvah etc
I appreciate the art of Bridge is in the understanding between the partners and is probably the best game ever, but surely Solo is based on the same lines? Or perhaps I am just showing my ignorance, it was a long time ago so I apologise.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 1m1 minute ago YouGov poll for Sun finds that 41% would vote to remain in the EU while 40% would vote to leave in a referendum Britain's membership
Any Party would feel uncomfortable about losing someone of Carswell's intellectual stature. Combine this with his obviously excellent status as a community MP and you have a serious loss for the Tories.
Reckless is not in the same category, however. Assuming Reckless wins (and I'm not convinced he will) he will lose next May. This is not the case with Carswell, who I suspect may well remain their sole representative.
You had any money of any of those opinions, Fen?
No, I've got money on the Lib Dems to win Watford, but I think I'll wait before I put anything on UKIP, one way or the other... Tempted by UKIP to win NE Cambs though....
Re EU. 41% in favour 40% against and I'm sure by the time a campaign got underway with most parties supporting it you'd be talking at least 40/60 for staying in.
So why doesn't Ed get his brains trust together to arrange the arguments for staying in and start selling it?
Re EU. 41% in favour 40% against and I'm sure by the time a campaign got underway with most parties supporting it you'd be talking at least 40/60 for staying in.
So why doesn't Ed get his brains trust together to arrange the arguments for staying in and start selling it?
It's a gaping open goal.
Ed's brains trust, what could possibly go wrong.......
Dear God. Solo whist is a fine game but to describe it as Bridge without partners is akin to describing the daubs of a five year old as the paintings of the renaissance masters without the clever bits.
Well that's how it seemed to me at the time, though I was young! Isn't the basic premise the same in that you have to bid how many tricks you will get, solo, mizerahvah etc
I appreciate the art of Bridge is in the understanding between the partners and is probably the best game ever, but surely Solo is based on the same lines? Or perhaps I am just showing my ignorance, it was a long time ago so I apologise.
Mr. England, I mean no offence and you are quite correct. However, the play of bridge, to say nothing of the bidding, raises it as a game of subtlety and skill into quite a different dimension that that occupied by the fine game of solo.
Consider the cave paintings of our very ancient ancestors and the the works of Da Vinci . They both represent the world as seen by the respective artists but there is a big difference between them.
Dear God. Solo whist is a fine game but to describe it as Bridge without partners is akin to describing the daubs of a five year old as the paintings of the renaissance masters without the clever bits.
Well that's how it seemed to me at the time, though I was young! Isn't the basic premise the same in that you have to bid how many tricks you will get, solo, mizerahvah etc
I appreciate the art of Bridge is in the understanding between the partners and is probably the best game ever, but surely Solo is based on the same lines? Or perhaps I am just showing my ignorance, it was a long time ago so I apologise.
Mr. England, I mean no offence and you are quite correct. However, the play of bridge, to say nothing of the bidding, raises it as a game of subtlety and skill into quite a different dimension that that occupied by the fine game of solo.
Consider the cave paintings of our very ancient ancestors and the the works of Da Vinci . They both represent the world as seen by the respective artists but there is a big difference between them.
Solo is a game long considered to be the preserve of Scottish Tory MPs. Current polling suggests they might be able to play three-handed bridge in future, while the remaining LD becomes Scotland's solo practitioner.
Comments
"We have two guys here who listened to this nonsense for 4 years.. if he is serious about change, why did they leave?"
Sandown is my most Southerly track so far Plumpton sounds good and definitely preferable to Nicks hotel room!!!
Sorry
Sandown is my most Southerly track so far Plumpton sounds good and definitely preferable to Nicks hotel room!!!
Sorry Nick I enjoyed it really.
Never played cards for serious money, though perhaps I should. I was taught, again, by my father who himself learned in The World's Greatest Card School - the British Army.
What centrist / centre left voter doesn't like Blue on Blue?
*popcorn*
Not Treaty change no referendum.......
So have tim's, and tim is the only poster who no longer posts who doesn't exist on vanilla at all... flushed down the memory hole
How come I wonder?
Plenty of suitable venues have been suggested - Plumpton, Windsor, Brighton, Sandown and Towcester would all work well in their different ways. I'd add Southwell, which is a featureless course in a flat, unattractive location, but it is very customer-friendly. It's not far from Nottingham, so maybe we could drag NickP along.
'This is possible if, and only if, Labour lose more votes to the Tories, UKIP and the Greens then they gain from the Lib Dems.'
You don't think Labour are going to lose votes to the SNP?
You don't think that the Labour vote is 'soft' as indicated in polling over the last 12 months?
Anyway haven't Mods put a stop to this "guess the Tim" bullcrap?
Enfield Southgate Labour 10/1 Ladbrokes
Labour topped the poll in this constituency in May
Demographic change is pro-Labour
No first time incumbancy boost for the Conservatives
Penistone & Stocksbridge UKIP 16/1 Ladbrokes
UKIP topped the poll in May winning all three Stocksbridge (Sheffield) wards
Demographics are very good for UKIP
There will be reverberations from Rotherham in this constituency
Don't worry, I am not guessing... anymore
Reckless is not in the same category, however. Assuming Reckless wins (and I'm not convinced he will) he will lose next May. This is not the case with Carswell, who I suspect may well remain their sole representative.
It seems, and none of us save perhaps Mike actually know the full story, that Tim doesn't post any more because of PB Rightwingers threatening him and his family by maliciously revealing details etc.
How welcoming and civilised.
You been in Thurrock today? Loads of lefties smearing/telling lies and throwing abuse about because they haven't got any policies, thought it might be you?
Mrs BJ likes racing but unfortunately she will be working and besides she hates politics.
The left does have a proud tradition throughout history of standing up to the Establishment and the far-right though. I don't expect that to stop any time soon.
Interesting.
Wouldn't UKIP be a factor there?
Dear God. Solo whist is a fine game but to describe it as Bridge without partners is akin to describing the daubs of a five year old as the paintings of the renaissance masters without the clever bits.
In any case, Labour losing votes to the SNP doesn't help the Tories in the marginal Lab-Con and Con-Lab seats that will decide the election, because none of them are in Scotland.
I do think that the Labour vote is soft and it is possible that the condition I laid down will occur.
EICIPM?
Sun tweets getting far too late for me, goodnight.
If you haven't come across Clarence Frogman Henry - he's totally brilliant, the Sam Cooke of Swing. I've about 35 of his now and he's in that lovely space between Big Band and the plinky fussy stuff from Louis Armstrong. One of his most well known is (I Don't Know Why I Love You) But I Do.
Been trying to work out why I've got a soft spot for Swing. I've finally twigged - it's all those Tom & Jerry cartoons.
Scotland could be the big surprise,the SNP seem to keep on defying the odds winning an outright majority in 2011,getting huge swathes of Labour voters to ignore their party and vote 'Yes' and then losing the referendum but gaining thousands of new members.
I agree Scotland won't help the Tories but it won't help Labour if they take a big hit there and have to rely on picking up even more seats in England.
I appreciate the art of Bridge is in the understanding between the partners and is probably the best game ever, but surely Solo is based on the same lines? Or perhaps I am just showing my ignorance, it was a long time ago so I apologise.
UKIP were on 7% in Southgate at the local elections, I imagine that they would hurt the Conservatives more than Labour here.
How much effort both Labour and the Conservatives make here with adjacent Enfield North likely to be a Labour gain is an unknown variable.
Famously the Conservatives lost Southgate in 1997 while thinking it was safe and putting all their campaigning into Enfield North.
YouGov poll for Sun finds that 41% would vote to remain in the EU while 40% would vote to leave in a referendum Britain's membership
So why doesn't Ed get his brains trust together to arrange the arguments for staying in and start selling it?
It's a gaping open goal.
Mr. England, I mean no offence and you are quite correct. However, the play of bridge, to say nothing of the bidding, raises it as a game of subtlety and skill into quite a different dimension that that occupied by the fine game of solo.
Consider the cave paintings of our very ancient ancestors and the the works of Da Vinci . They both represent the world as seen by the respective artists but there is a big difference between them.