I disagree. EV4EL within the current Parliamentary system is a means to block legislation, not to introduce it. The executive would thus remain UK-wide, but MPs representing English constituencies would have the ability to prevent England-only legislation introduced by the government from becoming law if they so wished. Economic, fiscal, defence and foreign policy would be UK wide and so the PM/Chancellor/Foreign Secretary/Defence Secretary could have a seat in any part of the UK.
The scenario you envisage may pertain if there were a separate English parliament. But I don't think any of the major parties are proposing that, are they?
Perfectly articulated, and better than my longwinded effort on the early thread.
I don't get what's so difficult about this, or why Labour MPs should get their knickers in a twist about "no more Scottish seat PM or Cabinet minister". Yes, if they have a UK majority but no majority in England, they'll have to moderate their "England only" policies and compromise and negotiate with Tories/LDs in England.
So be it, that's democracy. Welcome to the New UK. Their solution is to construct policies that will enable them to win more seats in England. Simple.
Exactly. It's not brain surgery - a UK Labour government without an English majority would have to work with MPs from other parties to get its England-only legislation through. Great - that's called democracy.
There is absolutely no reason for Labour to oppose EV4EL. If it does, then it will deserve the drubbing it gets at the polls.
Also think Scottish and Welsh MPs should replace the constituency members of their Assembly/Parliament. Why should they get paid the same as English MPs if they are doing a fraction of the work. Also in that case we would not have 2 tier MPs, they would all have a say on their domestic issues and they meet as a whole for UK matters.
I thought about this, but it's a bit of a non-starter in practical terms and would be bitterly opposed. It wouldn't solve the 2 tier MP problem either, because you'd have constituency MPs who work hard to win a FPTP seat and then have to spend part of the week in Westminster and part of it in Holyrood/Cardiff, whilst the list MSPs/MAs put their feet up and just turn up in Holyrood/Cardiff. It would also have to mean Holyrood/Cardiff could only sit 3 day weeks realistically.
This EVFEL trap has Osborne's fingerprints all over it. If Miliband walks straight into it, expect Crosby to exploit it to the full and see the Tories rise in the polls.
We've been screaming that from the PB rooftop for months!
(Next elephant trap Ed will blunder into with enthusiasm is Rotherham. Dave has been quiet while the referendum was occupying his time. I expect something very anti-Labour and very pro 'apply the law in a race/religion blind way' to be forthcoming soon).
tessyC, "I imagine the result could be terminal for Plaid in getting votes above their Welsh language base in the West"
Why ? Surely, the surprise of the night was that the SNP took on and defeated Scottish Labour in their Glasgow heartlands. (Many cheers for TheUnionDivvie by the way).
There is plenty of scope for a party to do just the same in the South Wales Valleys.
Here, MPs are parachuted in from South Africa (Hain) or Copenhagen (Kinnock, Jnr) or Cheltenham (Bryant).
Just like in Glasgow, generations of Labour MPs (like the Kinnocks) have grown fat and rich while their constituents have just grown poorer and poorer.
Of course, I agree that Plaid Cymru have not shown any initiative so far in doing this.
But, it is what they can and should be doing.
The problem with Plaid is that they are too often seen as the party of the Welsh speakers and that stops them breaking through in the English speaking areas. That said the Valleys are definitely not as rock solid as they used to be. Blaenau Gwent went indie for a while and at the last election Lab only had a 3k majority in Pontypridd and 4k in Merthyr (over the LDs)
The comparisons are all frankly rather irrelevant since the Conservatives used to have alot more Scottish MPs. If Scotland was taken out the equation, the odds for various majorities and most seats betting would look very very different.
Certainly, it's true that the Tories once had many more non-English MPs: the Tories got 36 MPs in Scotland in 1955, plus 6 in Wales and 10 in Northern Ireland, whereas they got none from the three nations in 1997. But isn't one conclusion from that that things change?
Right now, the Tories do badly outside England, but they were once the largest party in Scotland (1955), once the largest party in Northern Ireland (up to 1970), and once a significant force in Wales (1979/1983). So just as 30 years ago has a different picture, so in 30 years time there may be a difference picture. English-only MPs now are quite a bit more Conservative and less Labour than the UK-wide cohort (although not enough to stop Blair's 3 majorities), but that hasn't always been the case and may not always be the case.
Greater devolution for Scotland and Wales may see their politics diverge from England's anyway (as Northern Ireland's did), with Labour losing seats to the SNP/PC; or the Conservatives may see a resurgence (they nearly won their first seat in Northern Ireland for decades with Antrim South in 2010).
The comparisons are all frankly rather irrelevant since the Conservatives used to have alot more Scottish MPs. If Scotland was taken out the equation, the odds for various majorities and most seats betting would look very very different.
Certainly, it's true that the Tories once had many more non-English MPs: the Tories got 36 MPs in Scotland in 1955, plus 6 in Wales and 10 in Northern Ireland, whereas they got none from the three nations in 1997. But isn't one conclusion from that that things change?
Right now, the Tories do badly outside England, but they were once the largest party in Scotland (1955), once the largest party in Northern Ireland (up to 1970), and once a significant force in Wales (1979/1983). So just as 30 years ago has a different picture, so in 30 years time there may be a difference picture. English-only MPs now are quite a bit more Conservative and less Labour than the UK-wide cohort (although not enough to stop Blair's 3 majorities), but that hasn't always been the case and may not always be the case.
Greater devolution for Scotland and Wales may see their politics diverge from England's anyway (as Northern Ireland's did), with Labour losing seats to the SNP/PC; or the Conservatives may see a resurgence (they nearly won their first seat in Northern Ireland for decades with Antrim South in 2010).
Depends on what you mean by "badly".
Tories are currently 2nd Party in Wales Elections (22.5/25% of vote and 14 seats in Assy) and Commons (8 MPs from 40 on 26% of vote).
And third party in Scottish Parliament (15 MSPs from 129 on 17% of vote).
That Scottish 15-17% has been rock solid for 20 years, albeit lower than previously.
If Mr Cameron gets the UK Parliament to reflect devolved Parliaments, then it is worth something like 1.5% of extra UK-wide seats in the balance (6-7 from Scotland and a couple from Wales).
Comments
There is absolutely no reason for Labour to oppose EV4EL. If it does, then it will deserve the drubbing it gets at the polls.
Oh, and Congratulations on still having a job.
(Next elephant trap Ed will blunder into with enthusiasm is Rotherham. Dave has been quiet while the referendum was occupying his time. I expect something very anti-Labour and very pro 'apply the law in a race/religion blind way' to be forthcoming soon).
Right now, the Tories do badly outside England, but they were once the largest party in Scotland (1955), once the largest party in Northern Ireland (up to 1970), and once a significant force in Wales (1979/1983). So just as 30 years ago has a different picture, so in 30 years time there may be a difference picture. English-only MPs now are quite a bit more Conservative and less Labour than the UK-wide cohort (although not enough to stop Blair's 3 majorities), but that hasn't always been the case and may not always be the case.
Greater devolution for Scotland and Wales may see their politics diverge from England's anyway (as Northern Ireland's did), with Labour losing seats to the SNP/PC; or the Conservatives may see a resurgence (they nearly won their first seat in Northern Ireland for decades with Antrim South in 2010).
M
Tories are currently 2nd Party in Wales Elections (22.5/25% of vote and 14 seats in Assy)
and Commons (8 MPs from 40 on 26% of vote).
And third party in Scottish Parliament (15 MSPs from 129 on 17% of vote).
That Scottish 15-17% has been rock solid for 20 years, albeit lower than previously.
If Mr Cameron gets the UK Parliament to reflect devolved Parliaments, then it is worth something like 1.5% of extra UK-wide seats in the balance (6-7 from Scotland and a couple from Wales).