David Cameron's plans to replace local council cabinets with directly elected mayors have been rejected by voters in nine English cities.
Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, Sheffield, Wakefield, Coventry, Leeds and Bradford voted "no" to the idea, championed by ministers.
It's a non-starter from the beginning...
In large part that's because they were for totally pointless areas. Mayor of Manchester is (relatively) meaningless - like Mayor of Lewisham. If the offer had been the far more sensible Mayor of Greater Manchester, along the Mayor of London lines, then I strongly suspect that the answer will have been different.
Well, there was a bit of excitement but the Scotts came to the brink, looked over the edge, were frit and decided that living on English grants and subsidies was better than independence.
Has that Malcome feller been on and if not, will he ever be seen again?
See the start of the previous thread for malcolmg's musings on the results.
Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
Cameron will have a stack of votes before 2015 if he needs them. Cons, Libs, Scot Nats, Ulster Unionists, Plaid Cymru, and those labour realists who understand the game is up.
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
David Cameron's plans to replace local council cabinets with directly elected mayors have been rejected by voters in nine English cities.
Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, Sheffield, Wakefield, Coventry, Leeds and Bradford voted "no" to the idea, championed by ministers.
It's a non-starter from the beginning...
In large part that's because they were for totally pointless areas. Mayor of Manchester is (relatively) meaningless - like Mayor of Lewisham. If the offer had been the far more sensible Mayor of Greater Manchester, along the Mayor of London lines, then I strongly suspect that the answer will have been different.
My old man will be (Lord) Mayor of Coventry soon enough, will be amusing to see him in all the robes and garb ;P
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
The most interesting thing for me last night was quite a few Lib Dems, such as Sir Menzies Campbell pretty much endorsed EV4EL.
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
Once EV4EL has been pushed through, it would be political suicide for Labour to actually take rights away from the English.
Mr. Isam, you could've gone hunting down an old article about him being the first party leader to recognise the seriousness of the situation and convening the so-called Star Chamber.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
If labour want to play party tribal politics on it, then the tories have to as well.
Don't understand the fuss over EV4EL. The Scottish and Welsh MPs hardly ever make a difference anyway, and as has been noted elsewhere on this thread there will always be MPs who can vote on issues that will not affect them. Should MPs from the South West be excluded from voting on HS2?
In many respects, Labour's worst nightmare is now happening.
Tories will go to 2015 election with devo max offer with England included.
Labour will have to oppose as they are completely screwed without Scot's & Welsh MP's.
Voters will go nationalistic to get best solution for their own country, which won't be labour.
In the mean time, every time a whinging Scottish Labour MP appears on the media, like wee Dougie this morning, appears on the media trying to justify Scot MP's voting on England only issues, more English voters will desert labour.
Labour squeezed everywhere. Cameron as PM has the power to make all the running on this.
No. There are two problems with this scenario. One is that Labour generally does not depend on its Scottish MPs. The other is the Conservatives risk losing their Welsh MPs if they campaign on England uber alles.
And in the longer term, it will probably favour Labour anyway since it leads on issues most likely to be devolved.
The WLQ is out in the open now and whereas in the past its been a none issue for the English, it will now be the key issue. The Tories will make it so.
How many English voters will say yes to "do you want your income tax rate set by MP's who it doesn't apply to?"
WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.
You're wrong on every single count.
Anyone who genuinely believes in EV4EL as a means to ensure that the majority view of English voters is represented in all parliamentary decisions affecting England only has to support UKIP, the Greens and others being proportionately represented in Parliament. It's then up to English UKIP, Green etc MPs to join English MPs from the major parties in deciding whether to block England-only legislation introduced by the UK government. And if UKIP does emerge as a party of the Old Labour English WWC we may find that a fair bit of legislation introduced by a UK Labour government gets its support.
If Ed has a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs, well he will have a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs...
Completely unsustainable. Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents after devomax. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
On the BBC pro-union "Bias" I suspect like the soft pedalling to Labour during the Blair years it isn't/wasn't anything conscious or deliberate, more a state of mind. It is after all the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation.
Four hours sleep, knackered but over the moon. Being hopelessly wrong has never felt so good. Exactly this. I'd become relatively convinced that the higher the turnout the more yes votes we'd get, and that the undecideds would go "ah fuck it" and vote yes. And they didn't - fantastic.
SouthamObserver said:
The logic of EV4EL is inarguable. But the devil is going to be in the detail. Nigel Farage is right - we need a constitutional convention to sort this out so that we get a final settlement that has cross-party support. The alternative is a dog's dinner, imposed for narrow party interest that will continually be revised depending on who is in power. That way lies ever-greater disconnect between voters and those who represent them.
I have always been a supporter of PR and if the argument is that the views of English voters have to be properly represented when decisions about England only issues are being made, then I cannot see how there can be any argument against it. After all, EV4EL is not about choosing a government - it is about ensuring that whoever is in government only passes legislation that affects England if they can persuade those representing the majority of English voters that it should pass. In other words, it is a blocking mechanism. Again, completely agree. I might be a leftie but first I'm a democrat, and its pointless me bemoaning the lack of democracy elsewhere when we remain wedded to a vast and bloated House of Donors and a Commons which seems lost against its revised purpose. It IS silly that Scottish MPs vote on English bills when Scottish bills don't appear. But its also silly to suggest that we elect MPs equally then give them unequal powers - thats fundamentally undemocratic, as silly as giving some MPs more than 1 vote. The problem isn't that Scottish MPs vote on English legislation, its that English legislation still appears before the UK parliament.
This is NOT a problem that can be resolved by back of envelope proposals and partisan posturing. Its way beyond all the party leaders and the parties and the issues - its what framework my grandkids will elect representatives to. Nor is the issue simply Scottish DevoMax or EV4EL or an English Parliament. Too many powers are too centralised in Westminster, and even the remaining powers sat at council level are dominated by the policies and budget slashing handcuffs issued by Westminster - again done for party political gain rather than common good.
The key thing missing in our society is civic pride. Previous generations developed their towns and communities to leave legacies for the next generation. This generation is broke, selfish and disinterested, and with so many councils now spending all their time managing their own decline and closing all the civic services built by others, its no surprise that people don't care any more.
Mr. Isam, you could've gone hunting down an old article about him being the first party leader to recognise the seriousness of the situation and convening the so-called Star Chamber.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
Cameron is on shifty ground re expenses, Farage has never had any
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
If labour want to play party tribal politics on it, then the tories have to as well.
That's politics.
I agree. Obviously, the grown-up thing to do would be to organise a constitutional convention to produce a settlement that all can sign up to. This is what Nigel Farage has suggested and I agree with him. The alternative is certainly narrow party-based manoeuvring that will bring Westminster into ever-greater disrepute and further alienate voters from those who make the decisions.
Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
Presumably we all agree that Scottish MPs, who job-share with MSPs in terms of representing their constituents and considering legislation and policy, should be paid much less than English MPs?
If Ed has a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs, well he will have a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs...
Completely unsustainable. Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents after devomax. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
He'd need a police escort.
Well he voted in favour of Crossrail - presumably he'd have to abstain on that sort of vote in future ?
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
Once EV4EL has been pushed through, it would be political suicide for Labour to actually take rights away from the English.
EV4EL does not give the English as a whole any greater power unless it is PR based. It is not a means of introducing legislation, it is a way to block legislation.
Presumably we all agree that Scottish MPs, who job-share with MSPs in terms of representing their constituents and considering legislation and policy, should be paid much less than English MPs?
Indeed. Once we have devomax and EV4EL, we can work out what percentage of votes they vote on, and apply that ratio to salaries.
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
The most interesting thing for me last night was quite a few Lib Dems, such as Sir Menzies Campbell pretty much endorsed EV4EL.
It is unopposable. And if Labour does oppose it will get one almighty kicking. But there is absolutely no reason not to support the principle.
Labour now 1/14 from 1/50 for Heywood and Middleton with Hills, ukip 13/2
1/50 Labour 10/1 UKIP was absolutely crazy
Not much matched on Betfair ( I notice @mikeSmithson didn't apologise after he broke his neck to correct me yesterday before realising I was right.... Come on Mike be a gent, it's not all about one upmanship)
I'm -£10/+£80 with Hills and +£14.25/-£60 with Betfair on that one.
Every little helps as Tesco say.
I managed to get £100 at 10/1 to average out my horrendous 5/2 bet with Quincel... Will be interested to see what price the other firms go, I reckon 13/2 will still be biggest price
Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
He'd need a police escort.
You're getting a little over excited now.
Indeed. THe chance to kill Scottish Labour was there last night. Scottish voters had it in their hands. If there was a "Yes" vote I think
Dave would have resigned
There may well have been moves to exclude Scottish MPs from the GE or some such.
As is it ain't happening, at least not in time for GE2015.
Per Ashcroft, 16-17 year-olds went yes by 71 to 29. I like giving younger people the vote but WTF was Cameron thinking letting Salmond do that? Classic Cameron: Taking things for granted, failing to play his hand properly early on, then getting panicked into concessions on things like the Barnett Formula. He did the same with the Eurosceptics: Took them for granted, failed to give them a bit of respect early on, then got pressured into concessions, but by this point they hardly bought him anything because nobody trusted him when he made them.
Are you really in Tokyo? If so you peer at the UK by looking through the wrong end of the telescope. In case you were not aware we already have a devolved Scottish parliament and it voted on the make up of its electorate. But hey from far away just smear Cameron - whose own parliamentary arithmetic would probably not have allowed him to overrule the eligibility rules even if legally he could have. And who else could vote? ''British citizens who are resident in Scotland; citizens of the 52 other Commonwealth countries who are resident in Scotland; citizens of the 27 other European Union countries who are resident in Scotland; members of the House of Lords who are resident in Scotland; Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the British Armed Forces or with Her Majesty's Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.'' --- all decided by the Scottish Parliament.
In terms of the WLQ Cameron has already set up and received the report of the Mackay Commission.
Eurosceptics? Cameron spoke about renegotiation ages ago and I believe spoke about it cogently. We do really need to renegotiate our place in an EU which otherwise is going to get politically closer. Its an important issue and an important time and we have an opportunity in a referendum to consider it.
Pardon me but your comments are 'classic anti Cameron'.
Labour now 1/14 from 1/50 for Heywood and Middleton with Hills, ukip 13/2
1/50 Labour 10/1 UKIP was absolutely crazy
Not much matched on Betfair ( I notice @mikeSmithson didn't apologise after he broke his neck to correct me yesterday before realising I was right.... Come on Mike be a gent, it's not all about one upmanship)
I'm -£10/+£80 with Hills and +£14.25/-£60 with Betfair on that one.
Every little helps as Tesco say.
I managed to get £100 at 10/1 to average out my horrendous 5/2 bet with Quincel... Will be interested to see what price the other firms go, I reckon 13/2 will still be biggest price
Well, there was a bit of excitement but the Scotts came to the brink, looked over the edge, were frit and decided that living on English grants and subsidies was better than independence.
Has that Malcome feller been on and if not, will he ever be seen again?
See the start of the previous thread for malcolmg's musings on the results.
*Grabs popcorn and heads off to previous thread*
So safe to say Malc's not happy then...
At least malcomg had the good grace to show his face. People like Stuart Dickson, who had been taunting the No side again and again in recent weeks, and who had claimed they'd definitely be here after the result, have gone absolutely AWOL. I guess he's as feart as his fellow Scots thinking about going it alone...
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
Labour Party conference starts in less than 48 hours. Is Ed Miliband seriously just going to try and wing it? Fob everyone off with some vacuous platitudes about bringing people together?
Yep, Dan. That is exactly what Ed is going to try to do, on all issues, not just EV4EL, but also on welfare, the economy, education, and everything else.
It will be very interesting to see if it works.
Somebody other chap tried winging it very recently, it did not work as well as he wished. Surely Ed "more intellectual self-confidence" Miliband has heard of this failure?
If Ed has a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs, well he will have a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs...
Completely unsustainable. Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents after devomax. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
He'd need a police escort.
But that is just the West Lothian Question and we already live with it. Unjust or not, illogical or not, no-one cares.
Well, there was a bit of excitement but the Scotts came to the brink, looked over the edge, were frit and decided that living on English grants and subsidies was better than independence.
Has that Malcome feller been on and if not, will he ever be seen again?
See the start of the previous thread for malcolmg's musings on the results.
*Grabs popcorn and heads off to previous thread*
So safe to say Malc's not happy then...
At least malcomg had the good grace to show his face. People like Stuart Dickson, who had been taunting the No side again and again in recent weeks, and who had claimed they'd definitely be here after the result, have gone absolutely AWOL. I guess he's as feart as his fellow Scots thinking about going it alone...
In other news, constituency politics continues. My local newspaper states that the Conservative candidates to replace our hopeless MP, Andrew Lansley, have been chosen.
All four are women:
*) Charlotte Vere, a businesswoman with a degree in bio med engineering, who was a director of NO2AV.
*) Heidi Allen, a director of her family's manufacturing firm, studied astrophysics. She controversially lost out to Lucy Frazer in the SE Cambridgeshire contest.
*) Helen Whatley, a PPE (boo! natch!), worked as a healthcare consultant for McKinsey.
*) Jo Churchill. A councillor, from Lincolnshire.
The winner to be selected on the 11th August in my village's brand-spanking new school. Sadly I won't be there as I'm not a member, but Heidi or Charlotte would probably get my vote.
Whoever wins will be up against Sue Birtles for Labour and Sebastian Kindersley for the Lib Dems. Does anyone have any idea who UKIP's candidate is, or when they're selecting?
Labour now 1/14 from 1/50 for Heywood and Middleton with Hills, ukip 13/2
1/50 Labour 10/1 UKIP was absolutely crazy
Not much matched on Betfair ( I notice @mikeSmithson didn't apologise after he broke his neck to correct me yesterday before realising I was right.... Come on Mike be a gent, it's not all about one upmanship)
I'm -£10/+£80 with Hills and +£14.25/-£60 with Betfair on that one.
Every little helps as Tesco say.
I managed to get £100 at 10/1 to average out my horrendous 5/2 bet with Quincel... Will be interested to see what price the other firms go, I reckon 13/2 will still be biggest price
I recall that John Rentoul told me in the early part of the year that he expected the Tories to steadily move into the lead in the polls by September. Wonder if last night's result and Ed's ambivalence to EV4EL will prove to be a turning point.
Mr. Isam, you could've gone hunting down an old article about him being the first party leader to recognise the seriousness of the situation and convening the so-called Star Chamber.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
Cameron is on shifty ground re expenses, Farage has never had any
Farage slips out of that tricky situation by claiming 'allowances', you know, the ones that pay for the mysterious 'banks of computers' in his constituency shed/office, and Mrs Farage.
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
The most interesting thing for me last night was quite a few Lib Dems, such as Sir Menzies Campbell pretty much endorsed EV4EL.
It is unopposable. And if Labour does oppose it will get one almighty kicking. But there is absolutely no reason not to support the principle.
EV4EL makes it more likely that a Miliband government with small majority would have to rely on other party support otherwise it couldn't get its legislation through. That would help the LDs assuming they can hang on to half their seats.
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
Once EV4EL has been pushed through, it would be political suicide for Labour to actually take rights away from the English.
EV4EL does not give the English as a whole any greater power unless it is PR based. It is not a means of introducing legislation, it is a way to block legislation.
We have too many damn laws. Blocking the bullshit is worth just as much as if not more than creating new bullshit. I think we should have a law that says parliament can't introduce a new law without also repealing an old one!
If just Scots born in Scotland voted on the referendum yesterday I take it Salmond would have won ?
Counterbalanced by the fact that Scots resident in England ould have probably voted overwhemingly "No" if you exclude English voters who had a vote through residency or w/e,
In the last forty years, Labour have had three leaders representing constituencies outside of England, Brown, Kinnock and Callaghan (an Englishman representing Cardiff).
One thing about EV4EL, does this mean, it will be a disadvantage to be a non English MP?
Imagine Brown, Kinnock and Callaghan proposing legislation for England, they could never vote upon...
Edit: Four leaders, I forgot John Smith - Thanks Richard Nabavi
Mr. Isam, you could've gone hunting down an old article about him being the first party leader to recognise the seriousness of the situation and convening the so-called Star Chamber.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
Cameron is on shifty ground re expenses, Farage has never had any
Hillarious. Farage is up to his neck in it as is his entire party.
How very interesting it would be if Labour had to rely on their bloc of Scottish MPs to reject EV4EL. That's not going to play very well anywhere between Berwick and Penzance.
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
And this is an area where a principle should override narrow party interest. Even if EV4EL meant the Right never again got to control these issues (which actually I don't for a second think will be the case) then it would still be the right thing to do to press for EV4EL because the principle of elected representatives being responsible for their actions to their constituency is more important than which party then controls those issues.
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
The most interesting thing for me last night was quite a few Lib Dems, such as Sir Menzies Campbell pretty much endorsed EV4EL.
It is unopposable. And if Labour does oppose it will get one almighty kicking. But there is absolutely no reason not to support the principle.
EV4EL makes it more likely that a Miliband government with small majority would have to rely on other party support otherwise it couldn't get its legislation through. That would help the LDs assuming they can hang on to half their seats.
And a good thing to. But EV4EL really makes the case for PR unopposable. It has nothing to do with forming governments - that will still be done at a UK level. It is about making sure that England as a whole is properly represented when decisions about England are taken.
Mr. Isam, you could've gone hunting down an old article about him being the first party leader to recognise the seriousness of the situation and convening the so-called Star Chamber.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
Cameron is on shifty ground re expenses, Farage has never had any
Farage slips out of that tricky situation by claiming 'allowances', you know, the ones that pay for the 'banks of computers' in his constituency shed/office.
I'm not saying Farage is a saint, and he probably bent the rules, but it don't reckon he used the allowances to pay for doing up his house, or paying his mortgage, but for funding ukip.
Call it slippery if you like, but it was the EU not Westminster and if he did spend it on stuff that he didn't ought to, it was to fund the party not personal gain. So different in my book
Going to Clapton sometime next week to give a hand to UKIP for a day. It's the least I can do. I hope the day I choose will be sunny though, my 80 year old bones can't abide a windy, wet, seaside.
Mr. Isam, you could've gone hunting down an old article about him being the first party leader to recognise the seriousness of the situation and convening the so-called Star Chamber.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
Cameron is on shifty ground re expenses, Farage has never had any
Farage slips out of that tricky situation by claiming 'allowances', you know, the ones that pay for the mysterious 'banks of computers' in his constituency shed/office, and Mrs Farage.
The allowances are automatically given out by the EU Commission. He has campaigned to end the entire system, but he can't create his own parallel system of expenses on his own.
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
The most interesting thing for me last night was quite a few Lib Dems, such as Sir Menzies Campbell pretty much endorsed EV4EL.
It is unopposable. And if Labour does oppose it will get one almighty kicking. But there is absolutely no reason not to support the principle.
I won't claim have my finger on the pulse of the English floating voter but I suspect you're exaggerating the electoral impact. But if Labour focus group it and find opposition would be unpopular wouldn't they just kill it in the Lords? The UK has an entire chamber devoted to allowing politicians to kill legislation unaccountably, it would be weird not to use it or this.
If Ed has a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs, well he will have a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs...
Completely unsustainable. Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents after devomax. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
He'd need a police escort.
But that is just the West Lothian Question and we already live with it. Unjust or not, illogical or not, no-one cares.
That's because most people didn't understand or know about it. That has now changed.
A local politician recently tweeted that WLQ had just come up as an issue on the doorstep.
There's a perfectly respectable argument against EV4EL - if the English want to control their own affairs they should do so from their own parliament and not from another country's. When one party has a majority in England and another in the UK are they going to be forever swapping from one side of the House to another as they move from discussing English issues to discussing UK ones and the relevant Government changes?
Mr. Isam, you could've gone hunting down an old article about him being the first party leader to recognise the seriousness of the situation and convening the so-called Star Chamber.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
Cameron is on shifty ground re expenses, Farage has never had any
Hillarious. Farage is up to his neck in it as is his entire party.
What, Westminster expenses? I doubt it. Bet you wish it were true, but that smear was tried before the euros and failed miserably
what about Carswell and immigration? You've shut up about that haven't you?
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
Explain to somebody sleep-deprived why this would help Labour? Is the idea that voters in England would prioritize devolved issues over UK-level ones when choosing an MP? Why?
Going to Clapton sometime next week to give a hand to UKIP for a day. It's the least I can do. I hope the day I choose will be sunny though, my 80 year old bones can't abide a windy, wet, seaside.
I wouldn't advise that as there is no by-election in Leyton and Wanstead as far as I am aware!
There's a perfectly respectable argument against EV4EL - if the English want to control their own affairs they should do so from their own parliament and not from another country's. When one party has a majority in England and another in the UK are they going to be forever swapping from one side of the House to another as they move from discussing English issues to discussing UK ones and the relevant Government changes?
Changing the HoL to a PR based English parliament ?
It'd be a good use for the second chamber methinks.
In practice the chance of this happening is... nil.
Going to Clapton sometime next week to give a hand to UKIP for a day. It's the least I can do. I hope the day I choose will be sunny though, my 80 year old bones can't abide a windy, wet, seaside.
Clacton!
We should all try to agree a day where other PB kippers can go together... Be nice for the other three parties supported to have the day off from us too
Mr. Tokyo, that would not go unnoticed and would allow the Conservatives to use it in the election (as well as a promise to use the Parliament Act to force it through*).
*There is insufficient time for this to happen prior to the next election.
Mr. Pulpstar, I think fairness for England will resonate more with the electorate.
It is unopposable. And if Labour does oppose it will get one almighty kicking. But there is absolutely no reason not to support the principle.
Depends what "it" is. The principal of English representatives deciding on English issues is unopposable. Indeed it is demanded by devolution - whats good for one must be good for all.
Thats not the same though as making MPs not have equal powers. MPs vote on all sorts of things that don't affect their constituencies, and English laws are no different. The problem isn't Scottish MPs voting on English bills without reciprocity, its that English bills have nowhere to be presented other than the UK parliament.
If a Grand Committee of the Commons is sufficient to manage English affairs then its saying the same for any nation - so its a proposal to make the Scottish Welsh and Northern Ireland parliaments a waste of time and money. You can't have MPs being equal but some more equal than others - why not 2 votes for selected MPs? Why not ban Welsh or southwestern MPs voting on High Speed 2?
You do not resolve complex constitutional issues with panic measures on the back of an envelope designed for short term party political gain. Haven't we had enough of those already?
Well, there was a bit of excitement but the Scotts came to the brink, looked over the edge, were frit and decided that living on English grants and subsidies was better than independence.
Has that Malcome feller been on and if not, will he ever be seen again?
See the start of the previous thread for malcolmg's musings on the results.
*Grabs popcorn and heads off to previous thread*
So safe to say Malc's not happy then...
At least malcomg had the good grace to show his face. People like Stuart Dickson, who had been taunting the No side again and again in recent weeks, and who had claimed they'd definitely be here after the result, have gone absolutely AWOL. I guess he's as feart as his fellow Scots thinking about going it alone...
Oh, I'm here - and fascinated by the discussion here on EV4EL, Wales, etc., on which I will lurk, and other matters, such as the problems for SLAB and the potential for the other parties. On which someone was reckoning that SLAB would win the next election in Scotland: is that likely, with a new ILP type party perhaps developing out of the Radical Independence Consortium? Or even very possible, given the way SLAB designed the Parliament? But for now the focus is in Westminster, for a change. But I need to get on with the rest of my things to do so will be spending far less time here.
If Ed has a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs, well he will have a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs...
Completely unsustainable. Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents after devomax. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
He'd need a police escort.
But that is just the West Lothian Question and we already live with it. Unjust or not, illogical or not, no-one cares.
That's because most people didn't understand or know about it. That has now changed.
A local politician recently tweeted that WLQ had just come up as an issue on the doorstep.
Note the "man bites dog" nature of this... They don't tweet that immigration or the NHS has just come up as an issue on the doorstep...
If just Scots born in Scotland voted on the referendum yesterday I take it Salmond would have won ?
Counterbalanced by the fact that Scots resident in England ould have probably voted overwhemingly "No" if you exclude English voters who had a vote through residency or w/e,
I think the margin of victory at ~400k votes was too big for that.
Mr. Isam, you could've gone hunting down an old article about him being the first party leader to recognise the seriousness of the situation and convening the so-called Star Chamber.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
Cameron is on shifty ground re expenses, Farage has never had any
Farage slips out of that tricky situation by claiming 'allowances', you know, the ones that pay for the 'banks of computers' in his constituency shed/office.
I'm not saying Farage is a saint, and he probably bent the rules, but it don't reckon he used the allowances to pay for doing up his house, or paying his mortgage, but for funding ukip.
Call it slippery if you like, but it was the EU not Westminster and if he did spend it on stuff that he didn't ought to, it was to fund the party not personal gain. So different in my book
Worse, surely? I'd rather dodgy money be spent on somebody's conservatory than on giving a political party funding
I've really never understood this need for an English Parliament. Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs could simply be asked to withdraw from the chamber during votes that solely effect England.
Of course it's a problem for a government that might depend upon Welsh and Scottish MPs to push through it's program. But if it's something specific to England and they did not have a majority to push it through, well that's called democracy.
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
And this is an area where a principle should override narrow party interest. Even if EV4EL meant the Right never again got to control these issues (which actually I don't for a second think will be the case) then it would still be the right thing to do to press for EV4EL because the principle of elected representatives being responsible for their actions to their constituency is more important than which party then controls those issues.
The principle behind EV4EL is surely that laws affecting England only cannot be passed without the approval of MPs whose make-up reflects the way England voted at the previous election. Thus, if the current polls are correct - it would be down to a collection of Tory, LD, Labour, UKIP and Green MPs to approve English-only legislation put forward by a government elected by the whole UK.
Labour Party conference starts in less than 48 hours. Is Ed Miliband seriously just going to try and wing it? Fob everyone off with some vacuous platitudes about bringing people together?
Yep, Dan. That is exactly what Ed is going to try to do, on all issues, not just EV4EL, but also on welfare, the economy, education, and everything else.
It will be very interesting to see if it works.
Miliband from what I have seen is gurning out total waffle this morning. Just vague irrational mumblings trying to equate saying No to independece with saying Yes to Labour policy.
There's a perfectly respectable argument against EV4EL - if the English want to control their own affairs they should do so from their own parliament and not from another country's. When one party has a majority in England and another in the UK are they going to be forever swapping from one side of the House to another as they move from discussing English issues to discussing UK ones and the relevant Government changes?
Changing the HoL to a PR based English parliament ?
It'd be a good use for the second chamber methinks.
In practice the chance of this happening is... nil.
The wonderful thing about the WLQ, along with HoL reform and many other constitutional wrinkles in the UK is that you'll easily get a majority to agree it should be ironed out but good luck getting a majority to agree on how exactly it should be fixed.
If Ed has a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs, well he will have a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs...
Completely unsustainable. Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents after devomax. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
He'd need a police escort.
But that is just the West Lothian Question and we already live with it. Unjust or not, illogical or not, no-one cares.
That's because most people didn't understand or know about it. That has now changed.
A local politician recently tweeted that WLQ had just come up as an issue on the doorstep.
I suspect that even if their is a general apathy about the WLQ, that attitude would change rapidly if it was made clear to people that it was the votes of Scots MPs that meant English students having to pay higher tuition fees whilst at the same time Scots students don't have to pay any.
I would love to see how many people supported that as a principle.
It is unopposable. And if Labour does oppose it will get one almighty kicking. But there is absolutely no reason not to support the principle.
Depends what "it" is. The principal of English representatives deciding on English issues is unopposable. Indeed it is demanded by devolution - whats good for one must be good for all.
Thats not the same though as making MPs not have equal powers. MPs vote on all sorts of things that don't affect their constituencies, and English laws are no different. The problem isn't Scottish MPs voting on English bills without reciprocity, its that English bills have nowhere to be presented other than the UK parliament.
If a Grand Committee of the Commons is sufficient to manage English affairs then its saying the same for any nation - so its a proposal to make the Scottish Welsh and Northern Ireland parliaments a waste of time and money. You can't have MPs being equal but some more equal than others - why not 2 votes for selected MPs? Why not ban Welsh or southwestern MPs voting on High Speed 2?
You do not resolve complex constitutional issues with panic measures on the back of an envelope designed for short term party political gain. Haven't we had enough of those already?
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
And this is an area where a principle should override narrow party interest. Even if EV4EL meant the Right never again got to control these issues (which actually I don't for a second think will be the case) then it would still be the right thing to do to press for EV4EL because the principle of elected representatives being responsible for their actions to their constituency is more important than which party then controls those issues.
The principle behind EV4EL is surely that laws affecting England only cannot be passed without the approval of MPs whose make-up reflects the way England voted at the previous election. Thus, if the current polls are correct - it would be down to a collection of Tory, LD, Labour, UKIP and Green MPs to approve English-only legislation put forward by a government elected by the whole UK.
You're mixing up two completely different arguments there. Easily done.
In other news, constituency politics continues. My local newspaper states that the Conservative candidates to replace our hopeless MP, Andrew Lansley, have been chosen.
All four are women:
*) Charlotte Vere, a businesswoman with a degree in bio med engineering, who was a director of NO2AV.
*) Heidi Allen, a director of her family's manufacturing firm, studied astrophysics. She controversially lost out to Lucy Frazer in the SE Cambridgeshire contest.
*) Helen Whatley, a PPE (boo! natch!), worked as a healthcare consultant for McKinsey.
*) Jo Churchill. A councillor, from Lincolnshire.
The winner to be selected on the 11th August in my village's brand-spanking new school. Sadly I won't be there as I'm not a member, but Heidi or Charlotte would probably get my vote.
Whoever wins will be up against Sue Birtles for Labour and Sebastian Kindersley for the Lib Dems. Does anyone have any idea who UKIP's candidate is, or when they're selecting?
Helen Whatley -- PPE & McKinsey -- the William Hague route to parliament.
Astrophysics and biomedical engineering -- didn't someone remark recently that women from scientific backgrounds do well in politics, citing the two Margarets, Beckett (metallurgy) and Thatcher (chemistry)? Though with only two data points, it might as easily have been their shared forename that made the difference.
There's a perfectly respectable argument against EV4EL - if the English want to control their own affairs they should do so from their own parliament and not from another country's. When one party has a majority in England and another in the UK are they going to be forever swapping from one side of the House to another as they move from discussing English issues to discussing UK ones and the relevant Government changes?
Changing the HoL to a PR based English parliament ?
It'd be a good use for the second chamber methinks.
In practice the chance of this happening is... nil.
The wonderful thing about the WLQ, along with HoL reform and many other constitutional wrinkles in the UK is that you'll easily get a majority to agree it should be ironed out but good luck getting a majority to agree on how exactly it should be fixed.
Considering the HoL/boundaries/AV debacle I think you
Mr. Isam, you could've gone hunting down an old article about him being the first party leader to recognise the seriousness of the situation and convening the so-called Star Chamber.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
Cameron is on shifty ground re expenses, Farage has never had any
Farage slips out of that tricky situation by claiming 'allowances', you know, the ones that pay for the 'banks of computers' in his constituency shed/office.
I'm not saying Farage is a saint, and he probably bent the rules, but it don't reckon he used the allowances to pay for doing up his house, or paying his mortgage, but for funding ukip.
Call it slippery if you like, but it was the EU not Westminster and if he did spend it on stuff that he didn't ought to, it was to fund the party not personal gain. So different in my book
Worse, surely? I'd rather dodgy money be spent on somebody's conservatory than on giving a political party funding
You're entitled to your opinion, I disagree.
Ukip make no secret that they hate the EU parliament and want it closed. They also make no secret that they use their allowances to fund the party. Sinn Fein do the same with regard to Westminster.
I understand why people want it to be the same as expenses for tribal reasons but the trump th is that it isn't
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
Once EV4EL has been pushed through, it would be political suicide for Labour to actually take rights away from the English.
EV4EL does not give the English as a whole any greater power unless it is PR based. It is not a means of introducing legislation, it is a way to block legislation.
We have too many damn laws. Blocking the bullshit is worth just as much as if not more than creating new bullshit. I think we should have a law that says parliament can't introduce a new law without also repealing an old one!
Whilst I fully agree with the principle of that, the problem is that they would just introduce ridiculously complicated multi-part laws to get around the issue. (eg The Finance and Snoopers Charter Bill with addition regulation regarding the application of English Votes for English Laws or something stupid)
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
Explain to somebody sleep-deprived why this would help Labour? Is the idea that voters in England would prioritize devolved issues over UK-level ones when choosing an MP? Why?
EV4EL is a blocking mechanism. Would right of centre English MPs block electorally popular England-only legislation in areas such as health, education etc introduced by a UK Labour government?
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
And this is an area where a principle should override narrow party interest. Even if EV4EL meant the Right never again got to control these issues (which actually I don't for a second think will be the case) then it would still be the right thing to do to press for EV4EL because the principle of elected representatives being responsible for their actions to their constituency is more important than which party then controls those issues.
The principle behind EV4EL is surely that laws affecting England only cannot be passed without the approval of MPs whose make-up reflects the way England voted at the previous election. Thus, if the current polls are correct - it would be down to a collection of Tory, LD, Labour, UKIP and Green MPs to approve English-only legislation put forward by a government elected by the whole UK.
I am genuinely confused about the point you are making SO. I think we are in agreement but couldn't really follow your argument there. Apologies.
Bottom line for me is the principle of EV4EL is the right one no matter what that means politically in practice.
If Ed has a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs, well he will have a Gov't that relies on Scottish MPs...
Completely unsustainable. Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents after devomax. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
He'd need a police escort.
But that is just the West Lothian Question and we already live with it. Unjust or not, illogical or not, no-one cares.
That's because most people didn't understand or know about it. That has now changed.
A local politician recently tweeted that WLQ had just come up as an issue on the doorstep.
Having followed politics for thirty-odd years I am pretty convinced that WLQ, English votes, Barnett etc etc will all have been completed forgotten by vast majority of electorate by Xmas and we'll be back to the everyday mud slinging over NHS, crime etc etc.
I'm amazed that EdM et al have been so totally out triangulated by Cameron & Co this morning
It beggars belief, doesn't it? Alex Salmond may not have only won home rule for his country, he may also have destroyed the labour party.
Would he accept ennoblement?
Ha, ha. I do think our Tory chums on PB are getting slightly over-excited. Probably because they have not really thought this through. Unless there is a cross-party agreement on this what EV4EL actually means will vary depending on who is in power.
The most interesting thing for me last night was quite a few Lib Dems, such as Sir Menzies Campbell pretty much endorsed EV4EL.
Not all English LDs agree as we saw from Mark's posts earlier but the basic fact remains the result might have been even closer except for that freak poll and the counter reaction it caused in the No camp. A spokesman for the CBI today commented that the severe economic dislocation that would have occurred in the whole of the UK if we'd had a Yes vote was actually downplayed in the referendum campaign. For the sake of the next generation we don't want to be revisiting this in 15 years. Therefore party advantage has to be put aside and a permanent settlement reached.
Mr. Tokyo, that would not go unnoticed and would allow the Conservatives to use it in the election (as well as a promise to use the Parliament Act to force it through*).
*There is insufficient time for this to happen prior to the next election.
Mr. Pulpstar, I think fairness for England will resonate more with the electorate.
Presumably that's the Tories' goal but I doubt they'll get much mileage out of it. Labour came out virtually unscathed doing the same thing on an EU referendum, which is vastly less wonkish, more popular and more consequential than EVEL.
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
And this is an area where a principle should override narrow party interest. Even if EV4EL meant the Right never again got to control these issues (which actually I don't for a second think will be the case) then it would still be the right thing to do to press for EV4EL because the principle of elected representatives being responsible for their actions to their constituency is more important than which party then controls those issues.
The principle behind EV4EL is surely that laws affecting England only cannot be passed without the approval of MPs whose make-up reflects the way England voted at the previous election. Thus, if the current polls are correct - it would be down to a collection of Tory, LD, Labour, UKIP and Green MPs to approve English-only legislation put forward by a government elected by the whole UK.
I am genuinely confused about the point you are making SO. I think we are in agreement but couldn't really follow your argument there. Apologies.
Bottom line for me is the principle of EV4EL is the right one no matter what that means politically in practice.
My point is that if we are to have EV4EL - and I think we should - votes in Parliament need to reflect the way in which the English electorate has voted. And that means PR.
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
And this is an area where a principle should override narrow party interest. Even if EV4EL meant the Right never again got to control these issues (which actually I don't for a second think will be the case) then it would still be the right thing to do to press for EV4EL because the principle of elected representatives being responsible for their actions to their constituency is more important than which party then controls those issues.
The principle behind EV4EL is surely that laws affecting England only cannot be passed without the approval of MPs whose make-up reflects the way England voted at the previous election. Thus, if the current polls are correct - it would be down to a collection of Tory, LD, Labour, UKIP and Green MPs to approve English-only legislation put forward by a government elected by the whole UK.
You're mixing up two completely different arguments there. Easily done.
When is Carmichael going to be placed by Swinson by the way ?
Have a "max" with Paddy on that one - still happening right ?
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
Explain to somebody sleep-deprived why this would help Labour? Is the idea that voters in England would prioritize devolved issues over UK-level ones when choosing an MP? Why?
EV4EL is a blocking mechanism. Would right of centre English MPs block electorally popular England-only legislation in areas such as health, education etc introduced by a UK Labour government?
Even if they never did, I don't see how that makes EV4EL favour Labour. All it means is that Labour would still be able to pass legislation which they would have been able to pass anyway without EV4EL
If just Scots born in Scotland voted on the referendum yesterday I take it Salmond would have won ?
Counterbalanced by the fact that Scots resident in England ould have probably voted overwhemingly "No" if you exclude English voters who had a vote through residency or w/e,
If by a w/e you mean a weekend house, that is a criminal offence, so they ought to be excluded anyway - as should any Scots using a w/e home to get a second vote.
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
And this is an area where a principle should override narrow party interest. Even if EV4EL meant the Right never again got to control these issues (which actually I don't for a second think will be the case) then it would still be the right thing to do to press for EV4EL because the principle of elected representatives being responsible for their actions to their constituency is more important than which party then controls those issues.
The principle behind EV4EL is surely that laws affecting England only cannot be passed without the approval of MPs whose make-up reflects the way England voted at the previous election. Thus, if the current polls are correct - it would be down to a collection of Tory, LD, Labour, UKIP and Green MPs to approve English-only legislation put forward by a government elected by the whole UK.
You're mixing up two completely different arguments there. Easily done.
When is Carmichael going to be placed by Swinson by the way ?
Have a "max" with Paddy on that one - still happening right ?
''WLQ has been around for decades and in practice, no-one cares. Once cooler heads prevail, I cannot see the Conservative Party running with this because in the long term it will favour Labour, and might give a short term boost to UKIP, whom CCHQ wishes to crush, not ally with.''
Utterly delusional.
When shadsy reappears, you can ask him for odds about which Conservative MPs or even PPCs will stand aside for UKIP.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
Exactly. Fiscal and economic policy will be decided at the UK level. EV4EL will cover issues such as health, education, transport etc.
Explain to somebody sleep-deprived why this would help Labour? Is the idea that voters in England would prioritize devolved issues over UK-level ones when choosing an MP? Why?
EV4EL is a blocking mechanism. Would right of centre English MPs block electorally popular England-only legislation in areas such as health, education etc introduced by a UK Labour government?
That's an utter strawman. We're not talking about legislation which would have partisan support...
Comments
Cameron will have a stack of votes before 2015 if he needs them. Cons, Libs, Scot Nats, Ulster Unionists, Plaid Cymru, and those labour realists who understand the game is up.
And EV4EL or an English parliament will favour Labour because the issues which will be devolved are mainly the ones Labour leads on.
And CCHQ will know this.
In the interests of balance, will you be furnishing the site to a link questioning Farage's expenses?
That's politics.
Completely unsustainable. Imagine Douglas Alexander on Question Time in, say, Telford. Pontificating on about a whole range of English matters that do not affect his constituents after devomax. One person from the Audience says, what the f8ck has this got to do with you mate.
He'd need a police escort.
Probably slightly pro-union though.
SouthamObserver said:
Four hours sleep, knackered but over the moon. Being hopelessly wrong has never felt so good.
Exactly this. I'd become relatively convinced that the higher the turnout the more yes votes we'd get, and that the undecideds would go "ah fuck it" and vote yes. And they didn't - fantastic.
SouthamObserver said:
The logic of EV4EL is inarguable. But the devil is going to be in the detail. Nigel Farage is right - we need a constitutional convention to sort this out so that we get a final settlement that has cross-party support. The alternative is a dog's dinner, imposed for narrow party interest that will continually be revised depending on who is in power. That way lies ever-greater disconnect between voters and those who represent them.
I have always been a supporter of PR and if the argument is that the views of English voters have to be properly represented when decisions about England only issues are being made, then I cannot see how there can be any argument against it. After all, EV4EL is not about choosing a government - it is about ensuring that whoever is in government only passes legislation that affects England if they can persuade those representing the majority of English voters that it should pass. In other words, it is a blocking mechanism.
Again, completely agree. I might be a leftie but first I'm a democrat, and its pointless me bemoaning the lack of democracy elsewhere when we remain wedded to a vast and bloated House of Donors and a Commons which seems lost against its revised purpose. It IS silly that Scottish MPs vote on English bills when Scottish bills don't appear. But its also silly to suggest that we elect MPs equally then give them unequal powers - thats fundamentally undemocratic, as silly as giving some MPs more than 1 vote. The problem isn't that Scottish MPs vote on English legislation, its that English legislation still appears before the UK parliament.
This is NOT a problem that can be resolved by back of envelope proposals and partisan posturing. Its way beyond all the party leaders and the parties and the issues - its what framework my grandkids will elect representatives to. Nor is the issue simply Scottish DevoMax or EV4EL or an English Parliament. Too many powers are too centralised in Westminster, and even the remaining powers sat at council level are dominated by the policies and budget slashing handcuffs issued by Westminster - again done for party political gain rather than common good.
The key thing missing in our society is civic pride. Previous generations developed their towns and communities to leave legacies for the next generation. This generation is broke, selfish and disinterested, and with so many councils now spending all their time managing their own decline and closing all the civic services built by others, its no surprise that people don't care any more.
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/about-euro/index.html
Dave would have resigned
There may well have been moves to exclude Scottish MPs from the GE or some such.
As is it ain't happening, at least not in time for GE2015.
In case you were not aware we already have a devolved Scottish parliament and it voted on the make up of its electorate.
But hey from far away just smear Cameron - whose own parliamentary arithmetic would probably not have allowed him to overrule the eligibility rules even if legally he could have.
And who else could vote?
''British citizens who are resident in Scotland;
citizens of the 52 other Commonwealth countries who are resident in Scotland;
citizens of the 27 other European Union countries who are resident in Scotland;
members of the House of Lords who are resident in Scotland;
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the British Armed Forces or with Her Majesty's Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.''
--- all decided by the Scottish Parliament.
In terms of the WLQ Cameron has already set up and received the report of the Mackay Commission.
Eurosceptics? Cameron spoke about renegotiation ages ago and I believe spoke about it cogently. We do really need to renegotiate our place in an EU which otherwise is going to get politically closer. Its an important issue and an important time and we have an opportunity in a referendum to consider it.
Pardon me but your comments are 'classic anti Cameron'.
Did you get to vote in the real independence referendum yesterday?
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/politics-government/the-peoples-republic-of-south-norwood/
Probably. But it is an exciting time. Lunchtime bloody mary required.
All four are women:
*) Charlotte Vere, a businesswoman with a degree in bio med engineering, who was a director of NO2AV.
*) Heidi Allen, a director of her family's manufacturing firm, studied astrophysics. She controversially lost out to Lucy Frazer in the SE Cambridgeshire contest.
*) Helen Whatley, a PPE (boo! natch!), worked as a healthcare consultant for McKinsey.
*) Jo Churchill. A councillor, from Lincolnshire.
The winner to be selected on the 11th August in my village's brand-spanking new school. Sadly I won't be there as I'm not a member, but Heidi or Charlotte would probably get my vote.
http://www.southcambridgeshireconservatives.org.uk/news/which-will-it-be
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Conservatives-choose-Heidi-Allen-Jo-Churchill/story-22937529-detail/story.html
Whoever wins will be up against Sue Birtles for Labour and Sebastian Kindersley for the Lib Dems. Does anyone have any idea who UKIP's candidate is, or when they're selecting?
@Quincel was it £50?
Counterbalanced by the fact that Scots resident in England ould have probably voted overwhemingly "No" if you exclude English voters who had a vote through residency or w/e,
One thing about EV4EL, does this mean, it will be a disadvantage to be a non English MP?
Imagine Brown, Kinnock and Callaghan proposing legislation for England, they could never vote upon...
Edit: Four leaders, I forgot John Smith - Thanks Richard Nabavi
Biggest ever 24 hr gains for me.
Glad i could cash out on yes 45.01 to 50 at considerable profit. Also got No and 80 to 85% profits.
Hopefully GE2015 Lab most seats will be equally profitable
Call it slippery if you like, but it was the EU not Westminster and if he did spend it on stuff that he didn't ought to, it was to fund the party not personal gain. So different in my book
http://youtu.be/-22bv8uFRLI
That's because most people didn't understand or know about it. That has now changed.
A local politician recently tweeted that WLQ had just come up as an issue on the doorstep.
what about Carswell and immigration? You've shut up about that haven't you?
(Dedicated of him / her to be canvassing on a Friday morning too!)
It'd be a good use for the second chamber methinks.
In practice the chance of this happening is... nil.
We should all try to agree a day where other PB kippers can go together... Be nice for the other three parties supported to have the day off from us too
*There is insufficient time for this to happen prior to the next election.
Mr. Pulpstar, I think fairness for England will resonate more with the electorate.
Thats not the same though as making MPs not have equal powers. MPs vote on all sorts of things that don't affect their constituencies, and English laws are no different. The problem isn't Scottish MPs voting on English bills without reciprocity, its that English bills have nowhere to be presented other than the UK parliament.
If a Grand Committee of the Commons is sufficient to manage English affairs then its saying the same for any nation - so its a proposal to make the Scottish Welsh and Northern Ireland parliaments a waste of time and money. You can't have MPs being equal but some more equal than others - why not 2 votes for selected MPs? Why not ban Welsh or southwestern MPs voting on High Speed 2?
You do not resolve complex constitutional issues with panic measures on the back of an envelope designed for short term party political gain. Haven't we had enough of those already?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCrT96QJBfQ
Of course it's a problem for a government that might depend upon Welsh and Scottish MPs to push through it's program. But if it's something specific to England and they did not have a majority to push it through, well that's called democracy.
I would love to see how many people supported that as a principle.
Astrophysics and biomedical engineering -- didn't someone remark recently that women from scientific backgrounds do well in politics, citing the two Margarets, Beckett (metallurgy) and Thatcher (chemistry)? Though with only two data points, it might as easily have been their shared forename that made the difference.
JUST MIGHT BE RIGHT :O)
Ukip make no secret that they hate the EU parliament and want it closed. They also make no secret that they use their allowances to fund the party. Sinn Fein do the same with regard to Westminster.
I understand why people want it to be the same as expenses for tribal reasons but the trump th is that it isn't
Could we have a Scottish Chancellor?
Would the Secretary of State for Scotland (presumably a Scottish MP) still be a cabinet post?
Bottom line for me is the principle of EV4EL is the right one no matter what that means politically in practice.
And the nearest person to the turnout percentage was only 0.01% out.
Have a "max" with Paddy on that one - still happening right