These people were not crazies, they had a clear target, clear motive. They were sitting in wait for soldiers coming in and out. This guy was just unlucky and very possibly pretty much had his head taken from his body..
Those who still don't listen, this cant be just ruled as not Islamic extremism because it isnt a spectacular. Do not make the same mistake as was made over the Boston bombing by far too many of the public who didn't want to utter the Islamic extremist name because it didn't suit their sensibilities. Im glad the authorities have been straight.
Such an attack today fits perfectly within the high publicity, low need to organise nature of the Islamic extremist handbook.
The other question, I don't get, the police cant shoot straight, they should be dead.
And on the ethnic nature of the attackers, look up your history there have been plenty of people of black African origin lifted over the years.
I agree with 98% of this, as does the Telegraph's well informed security dude: Con Coughlin.
The one place I demur is the shooting by cops. Much as the atavist in me would have liked to see these guys mashed into pieces with machine guns, surely it is better to shoot off a leg or two, render them harmless, but keep them alive, so they can be questioned?
If a cop coming upon a scene, where these a body lying in a road and some blokes waving stuff at you and approaching, seeks to shoot someone in the leg he's either thinking he is in a Hollywood movie or hes not doing his job. Once you pull the trigger you aim to kill thats how you are trained. Bear in mind firearms officers would have had some indications of the situation as they went to the scene. Generally in such scenarios with a lot of info coming in the trend is to exaggerate the situation not have it downplayed.
Secondly I have doubts to the intelligence value of these two in leading the cops somewhere new. If both are completely clean on intelligence databases I'll be surprised. Happy to be proven wrong but chances are that any network and association information will be picked up afterwards whether dead or alive.
They stood at the scene for long enough they had no desire to do this twice or cover tracks. Whats the chances of them turning tout? Small, not impossible, but small.
They wanted to be caught, or killed by police. Like Breivik they want publicity for their views. From the witness account here one ran towards the police car when it arrived:
Just watched the video of the guy with a meat cleaver apologising that people had to see him cut someones head off, and he quite obviously to me sounds like a Londoner... to me that makes it worse in terms of multiculturalism, but anyway, he refers to women in "our country" having to see stuff like that all the time...
These people were not crazies, they had a clear target, clear motive. They were sitting in wait for soldiers coming in and out. This guy was just unlucky and very possibly pretty much had his head taken from his body..
Those who still don't listen, this cant be just ruled as not Islamic extremism because it isnt a spectacular. Do not make the same mistake as was made over the Boston bombing by far too many of the public who didn't want to utter the Islamic extremist name because it didn't suit their sensibilities. Im glad the authorities have been straight.
Such an attack today fits perfectly within the high publicity, low need to organise nature of the Islamic extremist handbook.
The other question, I don't get, the police cant shoot straight, they should be dead.
And on the ethnic nature of the attackers, look up your history there have been plenty of people of black African origin lifted over the years.
I agree with 98% of this, as does the Telegraph's well informed security dude: Con Coughlin.
The one place I demur is the shooting by cops. Much as the atavist in me would have liked to see these guys mashed into pieces with machine guns, surely it is better to shoot off a leg or two, render them harmless, but keep them alive, so they can be questioned?
My understanding of police procedure for opening fire is that it is based on the principle that it will always be the absolute last resort in order to protect the public from an immediate deadly threat.
Because of that they are always taught to shoot to stop/kill so as to ensure that they succeed in that aim.
Also to be honest anyone who has fired a handgun will know that unlike what you see in films, aiming to hit someone in the leg/arm etc is extremely difficult. hence you aim for the body mass where you have the best chance of putting the target down.
Thats very true, always go for the body. That's the way I was trained. Pity I had to give up my trusty 9mm Biretta when I returned to the UK.
Just watched the video of the guy with a meat cleaver apologising that people had to see him cut someones head off, and he quite obviously to me sounds like a Londoner... to me that makes it worse in terms of multiculturalism, but anyway, he refers to women in "our country" having to see stuff like that all the time...
Which country?
It was a very revealing comment, clearly he has been a long time, possibly a lifetime in London, but his allegiance is elsewhere.
Just watched the video of the guy with a meat cleaver apologising that people had to see him cut someones head off, and he quite obviously to me sounds like a Londoner... to me that makes it worse in terms of multiculturalism, but anyway, he refers to women in "our country" having to see stuff like that all the time...
Which country?
He says "our lands" Islamist speak for "Muslim countries"
Youre right he says "our lands", thanks
Simply unbelievable this can happen, what is the world coming to?
Just watched the video of the guy with a meat cleaver apologising that people had to see him cut someones head off, and he quite obviously to me sounds like a Londoner... to me that makes it worse in terms of multiculturalism, but anyway, he refers to women in "our country" having to see stuff like that all the time...
Just watched the video of the guy with a meat cleaver apologising that people had to see him cut someones head off, and he quite obviously to me sounds like a Londoner... to me that makes it worse in terms of multiculturalism, but anyway, he refers to women in "our country" having to see stuff like that all the time...
Which country?
Does it matter? Take your pick, Mali, Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, it doesnt matter.
You can't reason with that kind of sh1t, you just can't. I accept that people kill for causes whether I like their cause or not. Killing, genuinely only occasionally has any real honour associated. To do that kind of kill though, It doesn't really matter whether these guys in their heads killed for Allah, fame on Youtube or because they were angry with their electricity bill.
There are people, groups and causes you may be able to rationalise with, negotiate with, compromise with.
Whatever they were, it isn't one of those cases. Nor for those still considering the mental illness or drug addled theory, are those legtimate cases either.
My info is that these guys were staking the place out and waiting. If that is so then, no the cause, the case, the country don't matter. Cant work with that kind of approach.
Just watched the video of the guy with a meat cleaver apologising that people had to see him cut someones head off, and he quite obviously to me sounds like a Londoner... to me that makes it worse in terms of multiculturalism, but anyway, he refers to women in "our country" having to see stuff like that all the time...
Which country?
It was a very revealing comment, clearly he has been a long time, possibly a lifetime in London, but his allegiance is elsewhere.
Islamist extremists don't recognise borders generally. Loyalty to the Ummah establishement of a caliphate followed by Jihad against the Jewish world govt in the USA. Strange echoes of the aryan far right with their loyalty to race culminating in a war against the Jewish world govt in New York (UN)
Since when was Islam a race ? Be careful , tim , you're showing your true colours.
Leaving aside the barbarity of the attack and the loss of this poor mans life, I worry this will mean us staying in Afghanistan even longer for fear of it looking like we are giving in to terroists were we to leave
Khat (Catha edulis) is a leafy green plant containing 2 main stimulants. Their main effects are similar to, but less powerful than, amphetamine (Speed). Stimulants speed up your mind and body. Khat is used mostly in Africa, but it is becoming more common in Europe
The key effects and risks of khat include:
•People feel more alert, happy and talkative. •It suppresses the appetite. •It can cause insomnia and can make pre-existing mental health problems worse and can cause paranoid and psychotic reactions (losing touch with reality).
I demur to those more expert than I in shooting armed suspects. Yes, that makes sense: aim for the torso, make sure you totally disable - and killing then if you can is probably safer.
I've been watching too many episodes of "24".
That said, the fact they have survived is, by accident or otherwise, clearly useful and positive, in terms of information and intelligence.
Seriously Sean, there is a less than 30% chance they'll gain anything new than they would have gained if they were dead and they did the usual sweeping up after. Maybe they will but short of a very large change of heart (or torture) they wont say anything new.
I still haven't seen any suggestion of more than two involved. The cops are going to look for a no3 somewhere near in some capacity.
“Being a cub leader I have my first aid so when I saw this guy on the floor I thought it was an accident then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse.
“And then when I went up there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife, he had what looked like butcher’s tools and he had a little axe, to cut the bones, and two large knives and he said 'move off the body’.
“So I thought 'OK, I don’t know what is going on here’ and he was covered with blood. I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said 'what do you want?’
Comments
No amount of training can really prepare you for the first time you have to kill a blood soaked, machete toting lunatic walking towards you.
(Though I have seen some Woodentops on the ranges who I wouldn't trust with a potato gun).
whether (s)/he should have killed the suspects or not, they did the job and neutralised the threat.
I'd buy him/her/them a drink.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10074586/Women-passers-by-hailed-as-heroes-for-shielding-body-of-dead-solider-in-Woolwich-attack.html
Astonishing bravery by the women who tried to help the injured, and for those who filmed the evidence. such courage makes me proud to be British.
Which country?
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/337298972706226177/photo/1
Simply unbelievable this can happen, what is the world coming to?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah
You can't reason with that kind of sh1t, you just can't. I accept that people kill for causes whether I like their cause or not. Killing, genuinely only occasionally has any real honour associated. To do that kind of kill though, It doesn't really matter whether these guys in their heads killed for Allah, fame on Youtube or because they were angry with their electricity bill.
There are people, groups and causes you may be able to rationalise with, negotiate with, compromise with.
Whatever they were, it isn't one of those cases. Nor for those still considering the mental illness or drug addled theory, are those legtimate cases either.
My info is that these guys were staking the place out and waiting. If that is so then, no the cause, the case, the country don't matter. Cant work with that kind of approach.
Is this a good or bad idea?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328746/Give-Falklands-Gibraltar-MP-says-Nigel-Farage-UKIP-leader-says-territories-voices-dangerously-muted.html?ITO=socialnet-twitter-mailonline&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=socialnet-twitter-mailonline
By the way the rumour is Somali origin but definitely not yet verified.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-22626994
Khat (Catha edulis) is a leafy green plant containing 2 main stimulants. Their main effects are similar to, but less powerful than, amphetamine (Speed). Stimulants speed up your mind and body. Khat is used mostly in Africa, but it is becoming more common in Europe
The key effects and risks of khat include:
•People feel more alert, happy and talkative.
•It suppresses the appetite.
•It can cause insomnia and can make pre-existing mental health problems worse and can cause paranoid and psychotic reactions (losing touch with reality).
I still haven't seen any suggestion of more than two involved. The cops are going to look for a no3 somewhere near in some capacity.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10074881/Mum-talked-down-Woolwich-terrorists-who-told-her-We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html
“Being a cub leader I have my first aid so when I saw this guy on the floor I thought it was an accident then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse.
“And then when I went up there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife, he had what looked like butcher’s tools and he had a little axe, to cut the bones, and two large knives and he said 'move off the body’.
“So I thought 'OK, I don’t know what is going on here’ and he was covered with blood. I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said 'what do you want?’