Mr. K, whilst obviously the police were wrong not to move earlier they do face an immensely difficult dilemma with every such instance. If they move too soon there may be insufficient evidence and no conviction. If they leave it too late, people may very well die.
Numerous plots have been successfully foiled by the police, and whilst I'm no fan of theirs in other respects they have generally done a good job countering terrorism.
On Friday I was on the New York to Boston train and it derailed a few hours later.
Today I arrived back at Heathrow at 6:30am and was travelling between Paddington and Euston this afternoon, and just after arriving back home hear the news of this attack.
More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity.
Typical knee-jerk reaction! The events in Woolwich are indeed very sad and disturbing, but your comment is far from helpful...
Helpful to whom? I'm not trying to be helpful; I'm bloody angry!
My wife is Turkish.
From the comment above, I can guess that she is a much more understanding, intelligent and moral person than you. Perhaps I am wrong, but Britain has been bettered by the fact she has chosen to come over here and added another iota of diversity to the country.
Unless you care to disagree?
(As a sidenote: she has never been a victim of racism in the UK. Then again, her English is better than mine, and she looks Mediterranean rather than obviously from an Islamic country. She also wears western clothes. In other words, she fits in. We did see racism towards her in a small way on a visit last year to Germany. I want to stop that sort of thing occurring here. And your comments do little to help that).
A Turkish woman falling in love with and marrying a British (I assume) man and integrating cannot be compared with Somalian gang culture in S London ending up with a soldier being beheaded in broad daylight.
No one is saying all immigrants/immigration is bad, Mike K didnt say that either
You simply do not get it.
His comment was: "More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity."
That directly effects several people I know, all of whom are a gift to this country. My seven best English friends all married foreigners.
And it also shows your stupid assumptions: my wife was integrated well before we met: our eyes first met over a warm signal generator, and she was schooled for some years here in the UK. But she is all too aware of racism and fears it, and is especially aware of the racism in Germany, which has been in the news recently with the cack-handed investigations into the murders of Turk by a white extremist terrorist group.
Such sick comments as those by MikeK makes a German situation all the more likely.
Look sorry for any offence. I did think when I wrote that your wife may well have been in England long before you met her... my oversight
Obviously no offence intended to you and good luck to you and your mates, but I think you are being oversensitive here, when an event has just taken place that heightens tensions
Just read that the scum may've filmed it, and footage could exist.
If so, and it's posted online, that could provoke a response either from copycats or from others who want to have a contrary video to post. I very much hope that isn't the case, and that any footage never sees the light of day.
Sky running story as a 'A politically-motivated Islamist terror attack in London'.
Make of that what you will.
Robinson on the Beeb just said he "heard that the attackers were of 'Muslim appearance'."
Now that is a racist statement. Islam is a religion and has white, black, brown and yellow adherents and believers. You cannot have a muslim appearance. You can however have a Pakistani or Somali appearance.
Rumour is that the footage is already out there in the wild. Guessing, but maybe what happened is that they targeted the victim as he left the barracks, ran him over, killed and beheaded him while filming and then had time to upload the footage while waiting for their rendezvous with the virgins? Dear God.
Sky running story as a 'A politically-motivated Islamist terror attack in London'.
Make of that what you will.
Robinson on the Beeb just said he "heard that the attackers were of 'Muslim appearance'."
Now that is a racist statement. Islam is a religion and has white, black, brown and yellow adherents and believers. You cannot have a muslim appearance. You can however have a Pakistani or Somali appearance.
I think you could assume they meant clothing for the reasons you mention.
Sky running story as a 'A politically-motivated Islamist terror attack in London'.
Make of that what you will.
Robinson on the Beeb just said he "heard that the attackers were of 'Muslim appearance'."
Now that is a racist statement. Islam is a religion and has white, black, brown and yellow adherents and believers. You cannot have a muslim appearance. You can however have a Pakistani or Somali appearance.
A minor point, but if Dave was on a train on his way to Europe an hour ago why was Parliament curtailed and PMQs cancelled? I thought the line was that he was at a summit
A minor point, but if Dave was on a train on his way to Europe an hour ago why was Parliament curtailed and PMQs cancelled? I thought the line was that he was at a summit
He is travelling between Brussels and Paris. He is due to meet Citoyen Hollande following the EU summit. He will keep the appointment but cut it short to return to the UK earilier than scheduled.
A minor point, but if Dave was on a train on his way to Europe an hour ago why was Parliament curtailed and PMQs cancelled? I thought the line was that he was at a summit
Grow up
"David Cameron was traveling from Brussels to Paris to meet President Francois Hollande but has now diverted to Westminster,"
The reason being that they are more worried about how this attack will affect their cherished multiculturalism, than the attack itself. That just an embarrassment for them, to sweep under the carpet asap.
If as is being reported, the killers shouted Allaha akbar as they carried out their crimes, that would give the appearance of their believing themselves to be muslim.
He curtails Parliament on a Tuesday rather than a Thursday whether there's a meeting or not.
Do we have to have the stats on PMQs attended and missed for last 3 PMs listed again? I dont think you have a strong case for Cameron being any less reluctant to face PMQs than Blair or Brown.
Really, at a time like this, thinking of the political consequences of such an act seems - to me anyway - a bit off. A man has been murdered in the most appalling and barbaric way. There will be people who loved him, who knew him, who are in the most dreadful pain now.
His murderers are evil. Utterly evil.
We are all hurt by knowing that such evil exists and perpetrates such acts on the streets of our city.
A minor point, but if Dave was on a train on his way to Europe an hour ago why was Parliament curtailed and PMQs cancelled? I thought the line was that he was at a summit
The Council meeting was on all day.
Fair enough, the radio report said he was "turning round and coming back"
The radio report I heard said he had been planning to visit Paris after the Council meeting rather than returning to London, which would explain the 'turning round' comment.
More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity. "quoted"
I may have missed it, asnd if so apologies, but where is your explicit condemnation? Or MikeK's, for that matter?
Maybe we should all just take it as read that none of us condone the brutal murder of anyone in broad daylight in a London street.
Mikes condemnation, ie ssarcastic praise of multiculture, is what got tim and Josias started.
Myself, I dont think its worth explicitly condemning what looks likely to be a horrific Muslim terrorist beheading of a British soldier on the streets of London in broad daylight on here for fear of nitpicking lefties trying to turn it into an argument on political correctness.
It seems using weasel words to make it look like just any other murder is the way to go so Ill keep schtum
A quick look will show you Brown had Parliament rise on the Thursday before the May Bank Holiday in 2009 and therefore did PMQs on the Wed before, Cameron curtails Parliament on a Tuesday so any % of PMQs attended stats are irrelevant.
Oh yes, the evidence is irrelevant when you have a subsample of one. You could almost call it an anecdote. Oh, and in this particular subsample the effect of rising on Tuesday rather than Thursday didnt affect Cameron's attendance at PMQs in the least because he was at the Council meeting anyway.
More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity.
Typical knee-jerk reaction! The events in Woolwich are indeed very sad and disturbing, but your comment is far from helpful...
Helpful to whom? I'm not trying to be helpful; I'm bloody angry!
My wife is Turkish.
From the comment above, I can guess that she is a much more understanding, intelligent and moral person than you. Perhaps I am wrong, but Britain has been bettered by the fact she has chosen to come over here and added another iota of diversity to the country.
Unless you care to disagree?
(As a sidenote: she has never been a victim of racism in the UK. Then again, her English is better than mine, and she looks Mediterranean rather than obviously from an Islamic country. She also wears western clothes. In other words, she fits in. We did see racism towards her in a small way on a visit last year to Germany. I want to stop that sort of thing occurring here. And your comments do little to help that).
A Turkish woman falling in love with and marrying a British (I assume) man and integrating cannot be compared with Somalian gang culture in S London ending up with a soldier being beheaded in broad daylight.
No one is saying all immigrants/immigration is bad, Mike K didnt say that either
You simply do not get it.
His comment was: "More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity."
That directly effects several people I know, all of whom are a gift to this country. My seven best English friends all married foreigners.
And it also shows your stupid assumptions: my wife was integrated well before we met: our eyes first met over a warm signal generator, and she was schooled for some years here in the UK. But she is all too aware of racism and fears it, and is especially aware of the racism in Germany, which has been in the news recently with the cack-handed investigations into the murders of Turk by a white extremist terrorist group.
Such sick comments as those by MikeK makes a German situation all the more likely.
Look sorry for any offence. I did think when I wrote that your wife may well have been in England long before you met her... my oversight
Obviously no offence intended to you and good luck to you and your mates, but I think you are being oversensitive here, when an event has just taken place that heightens tensions
T'is okay, and thanks. It's just that I have to live with a wife who is sometimes fearful. Perhaps without reason, as I keep on telling her, but fear nonetheless. That makes you more than a little aware of insensitive comments, and the effects they have.
If tensions are being heightened, it is important to be cautious and not inflame tensions more. Multiculturism is a broad brush: people do not seem too bothered about the Italians who came over here post-WWII (some of whom were PoWs who stayed).
And just in case it needs saying: RIP the poor victim. And I hope the perpetrators rot in hell/jail.
(As it happens, we were just discussing this and Mrs J reminded me that a couple of years ago she was spat at by a man on Oxford Street. Although she doesn't know if that racism, sexism or just bad luck, although it was directed at her).
Citizens have faced the prospect of death in the streets of London since the Kaiser. Then came Hitler, the IRA and the INLA. And now these wassocks.
Yes beheading is utterly dreadful, barbarous and emotive but some victims of Hitler and the provos must have had their heads blown off.
The fact is some people hate us and our way of life, and for different reasons. Always have. and probably always will.
We declared war on Hitler. Perhaps we should do the same with these thugs?
But we have. We have gone to Afganistan, Iraq. Sorted out Libya. Who should we declare war on ? Al- Qaeda ? Again, I thought we are at war with them since 2001.
The reason being that they are more worried about how this attack will affect their cherished multiculturalism, than the attack itself. That just an embarrassment for them, to sweep under the carpet asap.
More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity. "quoted"
I may have missed it, asnd if so apologies, but where is your explicit condemnation? Or MikeK's, for that matter?
Maybe we should all just take it as read that none of us condone the brutal murder of anyone in broad daylight in a London street.
Mikes condemnation, ie ssarcastic praise of multiculture, is what got tim and Josias started.
Myself, I dont think its worth explicitly condemning what looks likely to be a horrific Muslim terrorist beheading of a British soldier on the streets of London in broad daylight on here for fear of nitpicking lefties trying to turn it into an argument on political correctness.
It seems using weasel words to make it look like just any other murder is the way to go so Ill keep schtum
That's not the first time I've been classed as a leftie here on PB...
More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity.
Typical knee-jerk reaction! The events in Woolwich are indeed very sad and disturbing, but your comment is far from helpful...
Helpful to whom? I'm not trying to be helpful; I'm bloody angry!
My wife is Turkish.
From the comment above, I can guess that she is a much more understanding, intelligent and moral person than you. Perhaps I am wrong, but Britain has been bettered by the fact she has chosen to come over here and added another iota of diversity to the country.
Unless you care to disagree?
(As a sidenote: she has never been a victim of racism in the UK. Then again, her English is better than mine, and she looks Mediterranean rather than obviously from an Islamic country. She also wears western clothes. In other words, she fits in. We did see racism towards her in a small way on a visit last year to Germany. I want to stop that sort of thing occurring here. And your comments do little to help that).
A Turkish woman falling in love with and marrying a British (I assume) man and integrating cannot be compared with Somalian gang culture in S London ending up with a soldier being beheaded in broad daylight.
No one is saying all immigrants/immigration is bad, Mike K didnt say that either
You simply do not get it.
His comment was: "More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity."
That directly effects several people I know, all of whom are a gift to this country. My seven best English friends all married foreigners.
And it also shows your stupid assumptions: my wife was integrated well before we met: our eyes first met over a warm signal generator, and she was schooled for some years here in the UK. But she is all too aware of racism and fears it, and is especially aware of the racism in Germany, which has been in the news recently with the cack-handed investigations into the murders of Turk by a white extremist terrorist group.
Such sick comments as those by MikeK makes a German situation all the more likely.
Look sorry for any offence. I did think when I wrote that your wife may well have been in England long before you met her... my oversight
Obviously no offence intended to you and good luck to you and your mates, but I think you are being oversensitive here, when an event has just taken place that heightens tensions
T'is okay, and thanks. It's just that I have to live with a wife who is sometimes fearful. Perhaps without reason, as I keep on telling her, but fear nonetheless. That makes you more than a little aware of insensitive comments, and the effects they have.
If tensions are being heightened, it is important to be cautious and not inflame tensions more. Multiculturism is a broad brush: people do not seem too bothered about the Italians who came over here post-WWII (some of whom were PoWs who stayed).
And just in case it needs saying: RIP the poor victim. And I hope the perpetrators rot in hell/jail.
(As it happens, we were just discussing this and Mrs J reminded me that a couple of years ago she was spat at by a man on Oxford Street. Although she doesn't know if that racism, sexism or just bad luck, although it was directed at her).
'If tensions are being heightened'
Direct that to the murderous savages beheading people on British streets.
It was only - what - a couple of weeks ago that the PM was hosting a summit on helping Somalia, in part because of the risk of terrorism to us if such help were not given.
How prescient (on the assumption that the murderers are indeed Somalians).
The Telegraph live blog links to amateur video of what seems to be the police shooting the perps - and then running back to their vehicle for first aid gear.
More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity.
Typical knee-jerk reaction! The events in Woolwich are indeed very sad and disturbing, but your comment is far from helpful...
Helpful to whom? I'm not trying to be helpful; I'm bloody angry!
My wife is Turkish.
From the comment above, I can guess that she is a much more understanding, intelligent and moral person than you. Perhaps I am wrong, but Britain has been bettered by the fact she has chosen to come over here and added another iota of diversity to the country.
Unless you care to disagree?
(As a sidenote: she has never been a victim of racism in the UK. Then again, her English is better than mine, and she looks Mediterranean rather than obviously from an Islamic country. She also wears western clothes. In other words, she fits in. We did see racism towards her in a small way on a visit last year to Germany. I want to stop that sort of thing occurring here. And your comments do little to help that).
A Turkish woman falling in love with and marrying a British (I assume) man and integrating cannot be compared with Somalian gang culture in S London ending up with a soldier being beheaded in broad daylight.
No one is saying all immigrants/immigration is bad, Mike K didnt say that either
Sounds more like violent Islamist terrorists rather than "Somalian gang culture" why have you claimed gang culture?
Because there is a history of Somalian gang culture in that part of London
But youre right it sounds more like violent Islamic terrorism by Somalians
What on Earth was racist with what MikeK said? The lack of integration of certain immigration groups, encouraged by the notion of "multiculturalism", has played a critical role in causing many young Muslim in feeling alienated from Britain. This has led a small minority of them to adopt violent pro-terrorism views and think of other Britons as the "enemy".
Didn't he have Parliament rise on the tuesday before the last May Bank Holiday as well?
Yes tim, when the statistics dont back up your assertion sub sample and anecdote is the way to go. But go on - do show how, in 2012 for example, Cameron faced fewer PMQs than his two immediate predecessors did in an average year. If the data backs up your meme I'll be happy to buy into it.
Rehabilitation is not the only issue here. Just punishment and keeping the public safe are far more important.
Even if we don't hang them, they should be locked up in a small cell in solitary confinement with only bread, gruel and water for the rest of their miserable lives.
And, for the love of God, can we please start vetting immigrants for having undemocratic views?
I'm quite pleased their gunshot wounds were not fatal. They wanted matyrdom and now they are going to spend the rest of their lives in Belmarsh and I imagine that their fervour will pall over the decades. Plus they may have useful intellegence to share.
I'm starting to seriously come round to the death penalty for savages like this. Dangerous animals like this need to be put down.
Hard cases make bad law. It's not the cut-and-dried crimes that are the problem; it's the ones for which the evidence is less certain. The penalty goes with the crime, not the evidence. There've been too many miscarriages over the years and you can release a full-life termer; a posthumous pardon is little consolation to the dead.
There's also evidence that for precisely that reason, juries demand higher levels of evidence for potential death penalty cases 'to be sure'. The result is that more guilty people go free because the jury was only 90% sure rather than 95%.
Besides, the savages who carried out today's atrocity are dead anyway.
Let us hope that these murdering scum do not get the response that they are clearly looking for from this vile attack.
25 years in a cushty jail ? Indeed I hope not. A bit of Saudi style "sharia law" wouldn't go amiss on these rotting maggots. I don't particularly care if this would allow people to spout off on message boards and forums about how they had 'changed us' or 'won the argument'. These vermin need to be cleared not just off the country, but off the planet !
On another note I hope after the IPCC are done jumping through their hoops that the brave WPC is given a medal or three.
Rehabilitation is not the only issue here. Just punishment and keeping the public safe are far more important.
The public are safe if rehabilitation works, and I consider a murderer spending 40 years being a productive member of society and helping build up what they sought to destroy a better act of justice than them spending 40 years in a room.
I must say, extraordinary and horrific as the events in Woolwich are, I can't see why the PM needs to cut short his meeting with Hollande, unless there is a lot more that we haven't yet been told.
More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity.
Typical knee-jerk reaction! The events in Woolwich are indeed very sad and disturbing, but your comment is far from helpful...
Helpful to whom? I'm not trying to be helpful; I'm bloody angry!
My wife is Turkish.
From the comment above, I can guess that she is a much more understanding, intelligent and moral person than you. Perhaps I am wrong, but Britain has been bettered by the fact she has chosen to come over here and added another iota of diversity to the country.
Unless you care to disagree?
(As a sidenote: she has never been a victim of racism in the UK. Then again, her English is better than mine, and she looks Mediterranean rather than obviously from an Islamic country. She also wears western clothes. In other words, she fits in. We did see racism towards her in a small way on a visit last year to Germany. I want to stop that sort of thing occurring here. And your comments do little to help that).
A Turkish woman falling in love with and marrying a British (I assume) man and integrating cannot be compared with Somalian gang culture in S London ending up with a soldier being beheaded in broad daylight.
No one is saying all immigrants/immigration is bad, Mike K didnt say that either
Sounds more like violent Islamist terrorists rather than "Somalian gang culture" why have you claimed gang culture?
Because there is a history of Somalian gang culture in that part of London
But youre right it sounds more like violent Islamic terrorism by Somalians
Phew
Relief all round at that point.
Who's said they are Somali's besides a few of the usual suspects on here, anyone who knows?
Lots of people on twitter too
From Woolwich
But if its not Somalians Im sure you will claim it as a victory to deflect that it was Muslims
Or maybe it was right wing Muslims shouting allahu akbar?
I'm starting to seriously come round to the death penalty for savages like this. Dangerous animals like this need to be put down.
Hard cases make bad law. It's not the cut-and-dried crimes that are the problem; it's the ones for which the evidence is less certain. The penalty goes with the crime, not the evidence. There've been too many miscarriages over the years and you can release a full-life termer; a posthumous pardon is little consolation to the dead.
There's also evidence that for precisely that reason, juries demand higher levels of evidence for potential death penalty cases 'to be sure'. The result is that more guilty people go free because the jury was only 90% sure rather than 95%.
Besides, the savages who carried out today's atrocity are dead anyway.
Are they dead? I thought the paramedics had saved them and they were in serious condition in hospital?
edit: "There's also evidence that for precisely that reason, juries demand higher levels of evidence for potential death penalty cases 'to be sure'."
Easily solved. Crimes with a death penalty the jury gives two verdicts, one guilty or not, second whether death penalty should be an option or not, gives 95% and 100% certain options. Judge gets the final say.
I must say, extraordinary and horrific as the events in Woolwich are, I can't see why the PM needs to cut short his meeting with Hollande, unless there is a lot more that we haven't yet been told.
Largely political but any PM would do the same. These days, prime ministers are expected to be in London when something major goes off, despite the fact that they can communicate perfectly well remotely and ministers are probably at least as well placed on the detail. The criticism that comes otherwise just isn't worth it. Think Bush and the junior school visit during the 9/11 attacks.
The reason being that they are more worried about how this attack will affect their cherished multiculturalism, than the attack itself. That just an embarrassment for them, to sweep under the carpet asap.
More evidence of our vibrant multicultural society at woolwich. Lets celebrate our diversity. "quoted"
I may have missed it, asnd if so apologies, but where is your explicit condemnation? Or MikeK's, for that matter?
Maybe we should all just take it as read that none of us condone the brutal murder of anyone in broad daylight in a London street.
Mikes condemnation, ie ssarcastic praise of multiculture, is what got tim and Josias started.
Myself, I dont think its worth explicitly condemning what looks likely to be a horrific Muslim terrorist beheading of a British soldier on the streets of London in broad daylight on here for fear of nitpicking lefties trying to turn it into an argument on political correctness.
It seems using weasel words to make it look like just any other murder is the way to go so Ill keep schtum
That's not the first time I've been classed as a leftie here on PB...
I must say, extraordinary and horrific as the events in Woolwich are, I can't see why the PM needs to cut short his meeting with Hollande, unless there is a lot more that we haven't yet been told.
What on Earth was racist with what MikeK said? The lack of integration of certain immigration groups, encouraged by the notion of "multiculturalism", has played a critical role in causing many young Muslim in feeling alienated from Britain. This has led a small minority of them to adopt violent pro-terrorism views and think of other Britons as the "enemy".
I'm not going to comment on what MikeK said. But I think the primary cause of such violent pro-terrorism views is the ideology which animates and inspires them. Whether that is caused by a lack of integration or a consequence of it (or, more likely, a bit of both) is difficult to say. Certainly, regardless of the terrorism issue, immigrants to any country should integrate - better for them, better for the host country.
But dealing with the terrorism caused by a repulsive ideology needs dealing with / challenging the ideology. We have not really done that. What some have done (e.g. the EDL) is sought to attack those religionists whose religion has been perverted into the ideology as if the former share the same views and are responsible for the terrorists.
I must say, extraordinary and horrific as the events in Woolwich are, I can't see why the PM needs to cut short his meeting with Hollande, unless there is a lot more that we haven't yet been told.
Richard, here I have some sympathy with Cameron. The public will want their PM to be in COBRA. If it is an isolated incident , however, horrific, what practical steps can Cameron take now which could not be taken by May etc. or 24 hours later I do not know.
But we live in a democracy. Sometimes, it may not be totally logical but there you go.
@ReecoRees That tosser in the bobble hat on ITV news who killed a Brave Soldier had an English accent, another home grown terrorist. ENOUGH is ENOUGH.
A comment which I heartily agree with and will have tim tearing his hair out; if he has any.
I'm starting to seriously come round to the death penalty for savages like this. Dangerous animals like this need to be put down.
Why give them what they want? Life in a maximum security prison with no hope of parole, perhaps with irremovable images of their victim placed on the walls of their 12 by 12 cells seems like a far worse punishment to me.
What on Earth was racist with what MikeK said? The lack of integration of certain immigration groups, encouraged by the notion of "multiculturalism", has played a critical role in causing many young Muslim in feeling alienated from Britain. This has led a small minority of them to adopt violent pro-terrorism views and think of other Britons as the "enemy".
Where did I accuse him of racism? Go on, find it.
Because I did not.
I did say that blaming this on multiculturalism can have very negative effects on people like my wife.
Still, I daresay some people on here would think that my wife has no right to be here.
But this is getting off the point. RIP the victim.
I'm starting to seriously come round to the death penalty for savages like this. Dangerous animals like this need to be put down.
Hard cases make bad law. It's not the cut-and-dried crimes that are the problem; it's the ones for which the evidence is less certain. The penalty goes with the crime, not the evidence. There've been too many miscarriages over the years and you can release a full-life termer; a posthumous pardon is little consolation to the dead.
There's also evidence that for precisely that reason, juries demand higher levels of evidence for potential death penalty cases 'to be sure'. The result is that more guilty people go free because the jury was only 90% sure rather than 95%.
Besides, the savages who carried out today's atrocity are dead anyway.
Are they dead? I thought the paramedics had saved them and they were in serious condition in hospital?
edit: "There's also evidence that for precisely that reason, juries demand higher levels of evidence for potential death penalty cases 'to be sure'."
Easily solved. Crimes with a death penalty the jury gives two verdicts, one guilty or not, second whether death penalty should be an option or not, gives 95% and 100% certain options. Judge gets the final say.
I doubt there are any easy solutions. For one thing, allowing juries to determine the sentence leaves a lot to the beliefs of those serving (and particularly the more erudite / noisy). It's not like assessing evidence, which is supposed to be impartial; it's opening up a much more significant element of chance. For another, if a jury recommends the death penalty and the judge then doesn't apply it, it will be used by some to suggest the victim has been cheated or by others that the judge isn't as convinced as the jury was. Either opens a can of worms. Better to leave sentencing wholly in the hands of judges.
I would have no problem with the death penalty in principle were it not for what to my mind are the insuperable problems of implementing it.
If they're not dead then so much the better. Let them face justice. From the eye-witness accounts I'd heard, it sounded unlikely that they'd survived.
Moderators, please can someone ban tim? Claiming other posters "just want to attack Somalians" is very unpleasant.
Why else would anyone make up a load of stuff about Somali gangs being involved
Your "loyalty pledge for immigrants" looks pretty dumb given the accents too.
Who "made up a load of stuff"?
What stuff?
The initial rumours were that the murderers were Somalian. I have no good or bad things to say about Somalians in general. There are a lot of Somailian gangs in Woolwich.
I must say, extraordinary and horrific as the events in Woolwich are, I can't see why the PM needs to cut short his meeting with Hollande, unless there is a lot more that we haven't yet been told.
Let's be honest. The views of followers of any religion are a spectrum. Only a tiny minority of Muslims are as savage as the sickos today, but some 40-50% of Muslims in Britain have views that I think are fair to characterize as extreme. Part of integration must be a clear and strong condemnation from our political leaders of these widespread extremist views, as they contribute to an intellectual environment where even more terrible views are easier to get to.
I'm starting to seriously come round to the death penalty for savages like this. Dangerous animals like this need to be put down.
Hard cases make bad law. It's not the cut-and-dried crimes that are the problem; it's the ones for which the evidence is less certain. The penalty goes with the crime, not the evidence. There've been too many miscarriages over the years and you can release a full-life termer; a posthumous pardon is little consolation to the dead.
There's also evidence that for precisely that reason, juries demand higher levels of evidence for potential death penalty cases 'to be sure'. The result is that more guilty people go free because the jury was only 90% sure rather than 95%.
Besides, the savages who carried out today's atrocity are dead anyway.
Are they dead? I thought the paramedics had saved them and they were in serious condition in hospital?
edit: "There's also evidence that for precisely that reason, juries demand higher levels of evidence for potential death penalty cases 'to be sure'."
Easily solved. Crimes with a death penalty the jury gives two verdicts, one guilty or not, second whether death penalty should be an option or not, gives 95% and 100% certain options. Judge gets the final say.
I doubt there are any easy solutions. For one thing, allowing juries to determine the sentence leaves a lot to the beliefs of those serving (and particularly the more erudite / noisy). It's not like assessing evidence, which is supposed to be impartial; it's opening up a much more significant element of chance. For another, if a jury recommends the death penalty and the judge then doesn't apply it, it will be used by some to suggest the victim has been cheated or by others that the judge isn't as convinced as the jury was. Either opens a can of worms. Better to leave sentencing wholly in the hands of judges.
I would have no problem with the death penalty in principle were it not for what to my mind are the insuperable problems of implementing it.
If they're not dead then so much the better. Let them face justice. From the eye-witness accounts I'd heard, it sounded unlikely that they'd survived.
Not saying juries should determine the sentence, just whether the death penalty was an option or not giving it a double lock.
I must say, extraordinary and horrific as the events in Woolwich are, I can't see why the PM needs to cut short his meeting with Hollande, unless there is a lot more that we haven't yet been told.
Well said.
It's what the electorate demand.
Remember the criticism the PM and Boris received for not cancelling their holidays earlier during the riots in 2011.
COBRA? Headline news? For the murder of one person? Either there is a lot, lot more to this that we aren't being told, or everyone has completely lost their minds.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
I must say, extraordinary and horrific as the events in Woolwich are, I can't see why the PM needs to cut short his meeting with Hollande, unless there is a lot more that we haven't yet been told.
These days, prime ministers are expected to be in London when something major goes off.
I must say, extraordinary and horrific as the events in Woolwich are, I can't see why the PM needs to cut short his meeting with Hollande, unless there is a lot more that we haven't yet been told.
Well said.
It's what the electorate demand.
Remember the criticism the PM and Boris received for not cancelling their holidays earlier during the riots in 2011.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
I must say, extraordinary and horrific as the events in Woolwich are, I can't see why the PM needs to cut short his meeting with Hollande, unless there is a lot more that we haven't yet been told.
Well said.
It's what the electorate demand.
Remember the criticism the PM and Boris received for not cancelling their holidays earlier during the riots in 2011.
I was in Madrid when the 7/7 attacks happened.
The Spaniards were in awe on how the UK general public just kept carrying on, from Hitler, to the IRA to Al Qaeda, and every time said "we've been blown up by a better class of bastard before"
Most of us are. Only one person is trying to smear others as racist, and this isn't the first time he's done it.
Inventing stuff about Mali and immigrants so you can propose loyalty tests?
Jesus Christ, man. SHUT UP.
You'd hope that after a horrific event like this, people on here could put aside our ideological and partisan divides and just have a conversation. However, if I was having to bet beforehand on one poster that would try to distort others' reactions to smear them as racist, I would know who to bet on.
Comments
Numerous plots have been successfully foiled by the police, and whilst I'm no fan of theirs in other respects they have generally done a good job countering terrorism.
On Friday I was on the New York to Boston train and it derailed a few hours later.
Today I arrived back at Heathrow at 6:30am and was travelling between Paddington and Euston this afternoon, and just after arriving back home hear the news of this attack.
Obviously no offence intended to you and good luck to you and your mates, but I think you are being oversensitive here, when an event has just taken place that heightens tensions
http://www.murdermap.co.uk/Investigate.asp
If so, and it's posted online, that could provoke a response either from copycats or from others who want to have a contrary video to post. I very much hope that isn't the case, and that any footage never sees the light of day.
Rumour is that the footage is already out there in the wild. Guessing, but maybe what happened is that they targeted the victim as he left the barracks, ran him over, killed and beheaded him while filming and then had time to upload the footage while waiting for their rendezvous with the virgins? Dear God.
Such sick comments as those by MikeK makes a German situation all the more likely.
I must say that you have lost all reason if you think my statement- a quote from another blogger BTW - will affect the situation of Turks in Germany.
Edited
How easily offended are people?
And note how they condemn this, but say nothing about people who behead soldiers
Bit difficult to get PMQ dodging into that, tim.
Grow up
"David Cameron was traveling from Brussels to Paris to meet President Francois Hollande but has now diverted to Westminster,"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-two-shot-in-police-incident-live-coverage
Maybe we should all just take it as read that none of us condone the brutal murder of anyone in broad daylight in a London street.
Citizens have faced the prospect of death in the streets of London since the Kaiser. Then came Hitler, the IRA and the INLA. And now these wassocks.
Yes beheading is utterly dreadful, barbarous and emotive but some victims of Hitler and the provos must have had their heads blown off.
The fact is some people hate us and our way of life, and for different reasons. Always have. and probably always will.
Which brings us back to the UKIP vs political class split.
Men of Christian appearance - no idea what they would be, likewise men of Muslim appearance.
Really, at a time like this, thinking of the political consequences of such an act seems - to me anyway - a bit off. A man has been murdered in the most appalling and barbaric way. There will be people who loved him, who knew him, who are in the most dreadful pain now.
His murderers are evil. Utterly evil.
We are all hurt by knowing that such evil exists and perpetrates such acts on the streets of our city.
Myself, I dont think its worth explicitly condemning what looks likely to be a horrific Muslim terrorist beheading of a British soldier on the streets of London in broad daylight on here for fear of nitpicking lefties trying to turn it into an argument on political correctness.
It seems using weasel words to make it look like just any other murder is the way to go so Ill keep schtum
If tensions are being heightened, it is important to be cautious and not inflame tensions more. Multiculturism is a broad brush: people do not seem too bothered about the Italians who came over here post-WWII (some of whom were PoWs who stayed).
And just in case it needs saying: RIP the poor victim. And I hope the perpetrators rot in hell/jail.
(As it happens, we were just discussing this and Mrs J reminded me that a couple of years ago she was spat at by a man on Oxford Street. Although she doesn't know if that racism, sexism or just bad luck, although it was directed at her).
Exclusive: Picture of man with bloodied hands at Woolwich attack scene http://itv.co/10mIior
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnfinn_Nesset
Direct that to the murderous savages beheading people on British streets.
How prescient (on the assumption that the murderers are indeed Somalians).
The Telegraph live blog links to amateur video of what seems to be the police shooting the perps - and then running back to their vehicle for first aid gear.
What on Earth was racist with what MikeK said? The lack of integration of certain immigration groups, encouraged by the notion of "multiculturalism", has played a critical role in causing many young Muslim in feeling alienated from Britain. This has led a small minority of them to adopt violent pro-terrorism views and think of other Britons as the "enemy".
Even if we don't hang them, they should be locked up in a small cell in solitary confinement with only bread, gruel and water for the rest of their miserable lives.
And, for the love of God, can we please start vetting immigrants for having undemocratic views?
I'm quite pleased their gunshot wounds were not fatal. They wanted matyrdom and now they are going to spend the rest of their lives in Belmarsh and I imagine that their fervour will pall over the decades. Plus they may have useful intellegence to share.
Their victim will never experience happiness again. These men should not either.
There's also evidence that for precisely that reason, juries demand higher levels of evidence for potential death penalty cases 'to be sure'. The result is that more guilty people go free because the jury was only 90% sure rather than 95%.
Besides, the savages who carried out today's atrocity are dead anyway.
On another note I hope after the IPCC are done jumping through their hoops that the brave WPC is given a medal or three.
From Woolwich
But if its not Somalians Im sure you will claim it as a victory to deflect that it was Muslims
Or maybe it was right wing Muslims shouting allahu akbar?
edit:
"There's also evidence that for precisely that reason, juries demand higher levels of evidence for potential death penalty cases 'to be sure'."
Easily solved. Crimes with a death penalty the jury gives two verdicts, one guilty or not, second whether death penalty should be an option or not, gives 95% and 100% certain options. Judge gets the final say.
edit: there is a bantu minority from slavery days though
But dealing with the terrorism caused by a repulsive ideology needs dealing with / challenging the ideology. We have not really done that. What some have done (e.g. the EDL) is sought to attack those religionists whose religion has been perverted into the ideology as if the former share the same views and are responsible for the terrorists.
But we live in a democracy. Sometimes, it may not be totally logical but there you go.
That tosser in the bobble hat on ITV news who killed a Brave Soldier had an English accent, another home grown terrorist. ENOUGH is ENOUGH.
A comment which I heartily agree with and will have tim tearing his hair out; if he has any.
Because I did not.
I did say that blaming this on multiculturalism can have very negative effects on people like my wife.
Still, I daresay some people on here would think that my wife has no right to be here.
But this is getting off the point. RIP the victim.
I would have no problem with the death penalty in principle were it not for what to my mind are the insuperable problems of implementing it.
If they're not dead then so much the better. Let them face justice. From the eye-witness accounts I'd heard, it sounded unlikely that they'd survived.
They could also have a Nigerian connection given the current Government fighting against the Boko Haram there.
What stuff?
The initial rumours were that the murderers were Somalian. I have no good or bad things to say about Somalians in general. There are a lot of Somailian gangs in Woolwich.
Show me something bad I said about Somalians
He is "returning later tonight so that [he] can chair a COBRA meeting tomorrow morning".
Sensible chap. The food and wine is not bettered anywhere in the world.
Let's be honest. The views of followers of any religion are a spectrum. Only a tiny minority of Muslims are as savage as the sickos today, but some 40-50% of Muslims in Britain have views that I think are fair to characterize as extreme. Part of integration must be a clear and strong condemnation from our political leaders of these widespread extremist views, as they contribute to an intellectual environment where even more terrible views are easier to get to.
Remember the criticism the PM and Boris received for not cancelling their holidays earlier during the riots in 2011.
The UK authorities seem to be swimming against the tide on this.
On topic - 8-11%, zero seats.
http://www.freeworldmaps.net/africa/africa-political-map.gif
mauretania, chad, niger etc down to somalia
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
But it's nice to have just another example of you accusing others of "making things up", when all I have done is reported rumours I have heard.
The Spaniards were in awe on how the UK general public just kept carrying on, from Hitler, to the IRA to Al Qaeda, and every time said "we've been blown up by a better class of bastard before"
Don't mock.
Have I fallen through a wormhole?