Let's be honest. The views of followers of any religion are a spectrum. Only a tiny minority of Muslims are as savage as the sickos today, but some 40-50% of Muslims in Britain have views that I think are fair to characterize as extreme. Part of integration must be a clear and strong condemnation from our political leaders of these widespread extremist views, as they contribute to an intellectual environment where even more terrible views are easier to get to.
Agreed. We attack the views. We don't attack individual Muslims.
We're nowhere near doing enough to challenge the extreme views. In part, I think that's because we don't really understand ideologies, let alone religiously-based/inspired ideologies and so find it hard to counter them. And we're too willing to feel guilty or that it's bad form to criticise someone from another non-European culture. There are lots of reasons but the reality is that challenging the poisonous Islamist ideology here is essential - far more essential than sending arms to Syria or whatever.
I wonder how long it will be tenable to stop people discussing cases this like this on the internet after people have been charged.
The UK authorities seem to be swimming against the tide on this.
The possibility of a custodial focuses minds, the AG came down pretty hard on those trying to out the Bulger murders.
It is the super-injunction stuff all over again.
I think one day the damn will burst and there will be reciprocal agreements with a few countries.
The biggest problem is the facebook generation, I've known of a few instances where people have been thrown off a jury for checking out the accused/witnesses on facebook and twitter.
COBRA? Headline news? For the murder of one person? Either there is a lot, lot more to this that we aren't being told, or everyone has completely lost their minds.
On topic - 8-11%, zero seats.
Shall I take it that you don't consider that what could turn out to be an Islamic terrorist attack on the British Mainland, involving the beheading in broad daylight of a serving member of the Armed Forces to be serious?
Most of us are. Only one person is trying to smear others as racist, and this isn't the first time he's done it.
Inventing stuff about Mali and immigrants so you can propose loyalty tests?
Jesus Christ, man. SHUT UP.
You'd hope that after a horrific event like this, people on here could put aside our ideological and partisan divides and just have a conversation. However, if I was having to bet beforehand on one poster that would try to distort others' reactions to smear them as racist, I would know who to bet on.
And someone immediately blaming it on multiculturalism, before we know the history or motives the attackers, is putting aside ideology?
I stress once again: such talk effects people, and generally in a negative way. I'm probably seen by many on here as one of the select groups of 'PBTories', and yet can see a whole other aspect to this conversation. And suddenly I'm a leftie ;-)
Still, my fish pie's coming out of the oven, and Mrs J's getting fractious. Evening everyone, and let's be careful with out talk.
If I have upset or offended anyone, than sorry. But if so, ask yourself if your words might have had similar effects.
Most of us are. Only one person is trying to smear others as racist, and this isn't the first time he's done it.
Inventing stuff about Mali and immigrants so you can propose loyalty tests?
Jesus Christ, man. SHUT UP.
You'd hope that after a horrific event like this, people on here could put aside our ideological and partisan divides and just have a conversation. However, if I was having to bet beforehand on one poster that would try to distort others' reactions to smear them as racist, I would know who to bet on.
Josias Jessop?
He's absolutely right. MikeK just got there before you or Mr Jones or one of the others
There was a dreadful torture/murder case in Scotland a few months ago and you could check the guilty man's previous criminal history through the Google news archive.
I wonder how long it will be tenable to stop people discussing cases this like this on the internet after people have been charged.
The UK authorities seem to be swimming against the tide on this.
The possibility of a custodial focuses minds, the AG came down pretty hard on those trying to out the Bulger murders.
It is the super-injunction stuff all over again.
I think one day the damn will burst and there will be reciprocal agreements with a few countries.
The biggest problem is the facebook generation, I've known of a few instances where people have been thrown off a jury for checking out the accused/witnesses on facebook and twitter.
Carl: A gruesome terrorist incident in the streets of the capital city is I think major, particularly if it was filmed as part of some propaganda / incitement to others event. But in any event neither you nor I know what the intelligence may be and maybe DC is being prudent.
Anyway am Keeping Calm and Carrying On by Going Home Now.
It looks as if Dave is staying for dinner with les Hollandes.
He is "returning later tonight so that [he] can chair a COBRA meeting tomorrow morning".
Sensible chap. The food and wine is not bettered anywhere in the world.
you clearly haven't travelled much.
He's done very well if he's dined at the Élysée.
Really, you think the food makes up for 4 hrs with Francois ? You can't even neck the wine as you have to make vague noises you're interested in what he's saying. Chauffeur le McDo svp.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Bill Etheridge who is the UKIP candidate in Wolverhampton and a friend of mine on FB just posted this and I think it is a very good analysis of what happened this afternoon.
"This attack was deliberately done in this fashion to stimulate hate between None Muslims and Muslims by sick extremists. This is not about Islam and there should be no repercussions towards innocent people of that faith. Having said that, the people who committed this sickening act should, in my personal opinion, be executed. I feel physically sick at what I have seen and my deep sincere sympathy to this poor young man's family"
I may not agree with him about the capital punishment comment but he is absolutely right that the way in which this attack was carried out was clearly intended to be provocative and stir up resentment and hatred. The best way to combat such bestial behaviour is to continue to behave in a civilised manner and not thrash out at innocent people just because of their faith.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Apparently I disgraced myself last week by despising the Oxford grooming defendants and a pack who shouted "nice *rse" at a respectable young lady at 6-30pm on a Monday. Well, I despise the men of African appearance if they were responsible for today's attack.
If this was indeed a terrorist attack (which looks all but certain), it should be noted that the starting point for a person aged over 21 convicted of a murder, 'done for the purpose of advancing a political, religious[, racial] or ideological cause' is a whole life order (Paragraph 4(2)(c) of Schedule 22 to the Criminal Justice Act 2003).
I just watched that ITV News clip. Geez, just makes your head spin how things like this can happen.
I feel terrible for the man's family. It is just awful.
And I've been reading the comments below about where the attacker is 'from' (I haven't a clue) and I know this is a terribly trite thing to say but the black guy with blood on his hands just looks like any tall, fit, muscular African footballer. Not someone I would associate with terrorism in my own blinkered stereotypes.
@Pong It's a bit difficult to give much analysis when we have few facts and much rumour. What can we conclude so far?
1) The UKIPpers will feel utterly vindicated in their view that the country is going to the dogs and that immigrants are part of the problem.
2) Racial tensions will be inflamed.
3) A lot of stupid theories will be put forward on minimal evidence. Rational thought will be at a premium for a few days and possibly weeks.
At the moment, that's as far as I feel able to go.
The initial reaction I have seen from UKIPpers has been much along the lines of what I just posted. There will be morons who support every party who will go off the deep end, just as there were at the time of the Norway attacks. They are not representative of the overall view of any of the mainstream parties.
The best way to combat such bestial behaviour is to continue to behave in a civilised manner and not thrash out at innocent people just because of their faith.
The response to incidents such as this should be more freedom and a greater commitment to the rule of law.
Bill Etheridge who is the UKIP candidate in Wolverhampton and a friend of mine on FB just posted this and I think it is a very good analysis of what happened this afternoon.
"This attack was deliberately done in this fashion to stimulate hate between None Muslims and Muslims by sick extremists. This is not about Islam and there should be no repercussions towards innocent people of that faith. Having said that, the people who committed this sickening act should, in my personal opinion, be executed. I feel physically sick at what I have seen and my deep sincere sympathy to this poor young man's family"
I may not agree with him about the capital punishment comment but he is absolutely right that the way in which this attack was carried out was clearly intended to be provocative and stir up resentment and hatred. The best way to combat such bestial behaviour is to continue to behave in a civilised manner and not thrash out at innocent people just because of their faith.
Execution aside I could not agree more. They were/are looking for a response to this atrocity. It's what terrorists want always. And ideally they are after attacks on people from their own community. We should not give them what they want.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Don't get me wrong. All I want from the jihadis is for them to be deceased, which seems to me to be a fair degree of reciprocity after my near miss on 7/7.
Still, there is something pleasing about the idea of the perps waking up in ITU, wondering where the houris are and realising that that horrid pain there is not the result of over enthusiastic fellatio but rather a catheter. And they will go down forever.
That eyewitness tweet in patois on twitter! Wonderful use of language - write as you speak. Big shout out to the robocop Trojan, who didn't have time to get out of the vehicle, so I am guessing took them down with her sidearm through the window. Heroine. And a woman took them down.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
My considered and decent analysis is that the politicians will have to be careful in how they respond.
Cameron does statesmanship very well, Boris' interjection was very measured and hit the right tone.
Ed will do well.
Ditto Farage, but you can guarantee at least one Kipper will say something inappropriate and tasteless and some will extrapolate that all Kippers are like that.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
Also, just on the basis of the twitter chatter posted earlier i thought it was probably African (or at least African looking) muslim. Not a bad guess imo - although i may have got the wrong side of Africa.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
Also, just on the basis of the twitter chatter posted earlier i thought it was probably African (or at least African looking) muslim. Not a bad guess imo - although i may have got the wrong side of Africa.
The best way to combat such bestial behaviour is to continue to behave in a civilised manner and not thrash out at innocent people just because of their faith.
The response to incidents such as this should be more freedom and a greater commitment to the rule of law.
After events like this I always want a political leader to come out and argue clearly that Western democracy is a more moral, more decent system than an Islamic caliphate.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
Also, just on the basis of the twitter chatter posted earlier i thought it was probably African (or at least African looking) muslim. Not a bad guess imo - although i may have got the wrong side of Africa.
"African looking"?
What's wrong with "African looking"? It means someone of African descent. The same way people sometimes describe someone of fair hair and blue eyes as "North European looking".
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
Also, just on the basis of the twitter chatter posted earlier i thought it was probably African (or at least African looking) muslim. Not a bad guess imo - although i may have got the wrong side of Africa.
"African looking"?
The twitter guy would have been looking from a distance yes? What would he be able to make out from a distance?
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
My considered and decent analysis is that the politicians will have to be careful in how they respond.
Cameron does statesmanship very well, Boris' interjection was very measured and hit the right tone.
Ed will do well.
Ditto Farage, but you can guarantee at least one Kipper will say something inappropriate and tasteless and some will extrapolate that all Kippers are like that.
My Twitter timeline was soiled, this evening, by a pro-European Tory frothing madly about UKIP "capitalising on this murder". He barely spared a word for the dead soldier, and just ranted on and on at UKIP, calling them "Nazis". Spooky.
So there are plenty of people who made utter spectacles of themselves already, and they aren't kippers.
I agree that people of all political persuasions will be tactless.
But the main party leaders will do fine, but one Kipper, rightly or wrongly will be the story.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
My considered and decent analysis is that the politicians will have to be careful in how they respond.
Cameron does statesmanship very well, Boris' interjection was very measured and hit the right tone.
Ed will do well.
Ditto Farage, but you can guarantee at least one Kipper will say something inappropriate and tasteless and some will extrapolate that all Kippers are like that.
My Twitter timeline was soiled, this evening, by a pro-European Tory frothing madly about UKIP "capitalising on this murder". He barely spared a word for the dead soldier, and just ranted on and on at UKIP, calling them "Nazis". Spooky.
So there are plenty of people who made utter spectacles of themselves already, and they aren't kippers.
I agree that people of all political persuasions will be tactless.
But the main party leaders will do fine, but one Kipper, rightly or wrongly will be the story.
Farage on twitter " Appalling as this attack is I appeal for calm across communities in the UK "
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
My considered and decent analysis is that the politicians will have to be careful in how they respond.
Cameron does statesmanship very well, Boris' interjection was very measured and hit the right tone.
Ed will do well.
Ditto Farage, but you can guarantee at least one Kipper will say something inappropriate and tasteless and some will extrapolate that all Kippers are like that.
My Twitter timeline was soiled, this evening, by a pro-European Tory frothing madly about UKIP "capitalising on this murder". He barely spared a word for the dead soldier, and just ranted on and on at UKIP, calling them "Nazis". Spooky.
So there are plenty of people who made utter spectacles of themselves already, and they aren't kippers.
I agree that people of all political persuasions will be tactless.
But the main party leaders will do fine, but one Kipper, rightly or wrongly will be the story.
Farage on twitter " Appalling as this attack is I appeal for calm across communities in the UK "
Again referring to that eyewitness "robocop" tweet - "on sumn". I do think that a case can be made that that style of radical, salafist islamism is a mental illness, the more so given the calmness displayed by them. The problem with this idea though is that it is an infectious disease.
Rehabilitation is not the only issue here. Just punishment and keeping the public safe are far more important.
The public are safe if rehabilitation works, and I consider a murderer spending 40 years being a productive member of society and helping build up what they sought to destroy a better act of justice than them spending 40 years in a room.
There is a place where rehabilitation often works: Cloud Cuckoo Land. In betting terms there is often not 1 in a 100 chance of it working with many types of offender.
In any case punishment, justice, and with many crimes, lessons for other potential criminals, are far more important.
The best way to combat such bestial behaviour is to continue to behave in a civilised manner and not thrash out at innocent people just because of their faith.
The response to incidents such as this should be more freedom and a greater commitment to the rule of law.
After events like this I always want a political leader to come out and argue clearly that Western democracy is a more moral, more decent system than an Islamic caliphate.
It is quite obvious that the Islamic Caliphate envisioned by these Jihadis would be one barbarity after another. We only need to look at the parts of the world where they are in power. It shows how deluded the Jihadis are that they think anyone could gain a more favorable view of Islam because of their actions.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
My considered and decent analysis is that the politicians will have to be careful in how they respond.
Cameron does statesmanship very well, Boris' interjection was very measured and hit the right tone.
Ed will do well.
Ditto Farage, but you can guarantee at least one Kipper will say something inappropriate and tasteless and some will extrapolate that all Kippers are like that.
My Twitter timeline was soiled, this evening, by a pro-European Tory frothing madly about UKIP "capitalising on this murder". He barely spared a word for the dead soldier, and just ranted on and on at UKIP, calling them "Nazis". Spooky.
So there are plenty of people who made utter spectacles of themselves already, and they aren't kippers.
I agree that people of all political persuasions will be tactless.
But the main party leaders will do fine, but one Kipper, rightly or wrongly will be the story.
Farage on twitter " Appalling as this attack is I appeal for calm across communities in the UK "
As I said, Farage will hit the right tone.
Since when have you been saying that, TSE? Coming closer to UKIP, perhaps.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
My considered and decent analysis is that the politicians will have to be careful in how they respond.
Cameron does statesmanship very well, Boris' interjection was very measured and hit the right tone.
Ed will do well.
Ditto Farage, but you can guarantee at least one Kipper will say something inappropriate and tasteless and some will extrapolate that all Kippers are like that.
My Twitter timeline was soiled, this evening, by a pro-European Tory frothing madly about UKIP "capitalising on this murder". He barely spared a word for the dead soldier, and just ranted on and on at UKIP, calling them "Nazis". Spooky.
So there are plenty of people who made utter spectacles of themselves already, and they aren't kippers.
I agree that people of all political persuasions will be tactless.
But the main party leaders will do fine, but one Kipper, rightly or wrongly will be the story.
Farage on twitter " Appalling as this attack is I appeal for calm across communities in the UK "
As I said, Farage will hit the right tone.
Since when have you been saying that, TSE? Coming closer to UKIP, perhaps.
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Feels a bit wrong playing the detective and speculating, but I can't help it. I would guess the man with the cleaver has spent time in a UK jail; probably for something addictive like drugs; became religious inside; was high at the time of the killing through watching online speeches. As to his, or their, ethnic origins I reckon they will hail from different countries and I don't think that will be a major factor.
COBRA? Headline news? For the murder of one person? Either there is a lot, lot more to this that we aren't being told, or everyone has completely lost their minds.
On topic - 8-11%, zero seats.
Shall I take it that you don't consider that what could turn out to be an Islamic terrorist attack on the British Mainland, involving the beheading in broad daylight of a serving member of the Armed Forces to be serious?
I can't quite make sense of this - its yours and ours at the same time.
In footage, obtained by The Sun, one of the terrorists speaks directly in to the camera bragging about the horrific attack boasting the public and their "children" were targets of extremists.
He says: "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you...Your people will never be safe.
“In our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe.
"Remove your governments they don't care about you.
"You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our guns you think politicians are going to die? No it's going to be the average guy, like you, and your children.
"So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so can all live in peace.”
I have mentioned this before, but now seems a pertinent time to mention it again.
There is currently an ex-army man walking around the coast of Britain to raise money for Help for Heroes. He is also trying to raise awareness for the scandal of ex-servicemen who end up sleeping rough.
To do this, he is is sleeping rough every night. So far, he has been out for around 250 consecutive nights. As some of you know, ten years ago I walked the coast of Britain but had a nice, warm camper van and girlfriend to return to each night. What he is doing is absolutely amazing. He has already survived one winter outside.
If, like me, you are horrified by this attack, consider supporting him or the charity itself. This post of his (sorry, Facebook only) is worth a read:
James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 44s Senior Whitehall source says 'deep unease' in Govt at broadcast of footage of suspect because of its 'potential propaganda value'
No. I'd guess they're worried about repeat performances or vigilante gangs picking on innocent Muslims or people of African descent for looking different.
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Last year, I was in a bar in Manchester, my wife, who is white and English, was chatted up by some white English gentleman, she informed them, that guy coming back from the bar was her husband, they made a suggestion to her, that she had been groomed.
The security staff at the bar ejected the guys headfirst from the establishment.
As they were being ejected, they said, expletives deleted, "I can't believe you're protecting that Muslim paedo"
At the time I was wearing a pair of jeans and my England rugby shirt, and a pair of trainers.
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Correct. Let's do a little maths:
India population 1.2 billion, 13% Muslims = 156 million Pakistan population 190 million, 97% Muslim = 184 million Bangladesh population 165 million , 85% Muslim = 140 million
140+184+156 = 480 million Muslim 1200 mill. + 190 + 165 = 1555 million South Asia
For what its worth, if you read the Guardian's blog you will find that the UK's muslim organisations are lining up to pretty much unreservedly condemn what has happened today.
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Last year, I was in a bar in Manchester, my wife, who is white and English, was chatted up by some white English gentleman, she informed them, that guy coming back from the bar was her husband, they made a suggestion to her, that she had been groomed.
The security staff at the bar ejected the guys headfirst from the establishment.
As they were being ejected, they said, expletives deleted, "I can't believe you're protecting that Muslim paedo"
At the time I was wearing a pair of jeans and my England rugby shirt, and a pair of trainers.
What disgusting yobs. I'm very sorry you had to experience that. For what it's worth I dearly wish all our second (?) generation immigrants were more like you.
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Last year, I was in a bar in Manchester, my wife, who is white and English, was chatted up by some white English gentleman, she informed them, that guy coming back from the bar was her husband, they made a suggestion to her, that she had been groomed.
The security staff at the bar ejected the guys headfirst from the establishment.
As they were being ejected, they said, expletives deleted, "I can't believe you're protecting that Muslim paedo"
At the time I was wearing a pair of jeans and my England rugby shirt, and a pair of trainers.
What disgusting yobs. I'm very sorry you had to experience that. For what it's worth I dearly wish all our second (?) generation immigrants were more like you.
Third generation, my grandparents moved here in the 50s.
The guy who patted my wife's bottom at 10.00 am one morning on the way to Bournville Station about 3 years ago, looked rather like one of the attackers.
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Correct. Let's do a little maths:
India population 1.2 billion, 13% Muslims = 156 million Pakistan population 190 million, 97% Muslim = 184 million Bangladesh population 165 million , 85% Muslim = 140 million
140+184+156 = 480 million Muslim 1200 mill. + 190 + 165 = 1555 million South Asia
480/1555 x 100 = 31% Muslim
There's also 35 million Afghans, who are predominantly Muslim. But then, there are 30 million Nepalese and 20 million Sri Lankans, most of whom aren't Muslim.
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Correct. Let's do a little maths:
India population 1.2 billion, 13% Muslims = 156 million Pakistan population 190 million, 97% Muslim = 184 million Bangladesh population 165 million , 85% Muslim = 140 million
140+184+156 = 480 million Muslim 1200 mill. + 190 + 165 = 1555 million South Asia
480/1555 x 100 = 31% Muslim
There's also 35 million Afghans, who are predominantly Muslim. But then, there are 30 million Nepalese and 20 million Sri Lankans, most of whom aren't Muslim.
True, though I stuck to India/Pak/Bangla for obvious historical reasons.
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Last year, I was in a bar in Manchester, my wife, who is white and English, was chatted up by some white English gentleman, she informed them, that guy coming back from the bar was her husband, they made a suggestion to her, that she had been groomed.
The security staff at the bar ejected the guys headfirst from the establishment.
As they were being ejected, they said, expletives deleted, "I can't believe you're protecting that Muslim paedo"
At the time I was wearing a pair of jeans and my England rugby shirt, and a pair of trainers.
What disgusting yobs. I'm very sorry you had to experience that. For what it's worth I dearly wish all our second (?) generation immigrants were more like you.
Third generation, my grandparents moved here in the 50s.
My apologies. May I ask how religious you are? Feel free to tell me to butt out if that's too personal.
The guy who patted my wife's bottom at 10.00 am one morning on the way to Bournville Station about 3 years ago, looked rather like one of the attackers.
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Last year, I was in a bar in Manchester, my wife, who is white and English, was chatted up by some white English gentleman, she informed them, that guy coming back from the bar was her husband, they made a suggestion to her, that she had been groomed.
The security staff at the bar ejected the guys headfirst from the establishment.
As they were being ejected, they said, expletives deleted, "I can't believe you're protecting that Muslim paedo"
At the time I was wearing a pair of jeans and my England rugby shirt, and a pair of trainers.
What disgusting yobs. I'm very sorry you had to experience that. For what it's worth I dearly wish all our second (?) generation immigrants were more like you.
Third generation, my grandparents moved here in the 50s.
My apologies. May I ask how religious you are? Feel free to tell me to butt out if that's too personal.
For my parents' sake, I'm a Muslim twice a year, on both Eids, which is the only days a year I pray.
The twitter chatter people pasted earlier said - if you read between the lines - they were African in colouring. That gives you a band below the sahara
Other stuff hinted at Islamic. Other stuff hinted at Khat. Khat is linked to Horn of Africa.
All guesswork though.
Jeez. I come onto PB for some decent analysis and I get is this tripe?
My considered and decent analysis is that the politicians will have to be careful in how they respond.
Cameron does statesmanship very well, Boris' interjection was very measured and hit the right tone.
Ed will do well.
Ditto Farage, but you can guarantee at least one Kipper will say something inappropriate and tasteless and some will extrapolate that all Kippers are like that.
My Twitter timeline was soiled, this evening, by a pro-European Tory frothing madly about UKIP "capitalising on this murder". He barely spared a word for the dead soldier, and just ranted on and on at UKIP, calling them "Nazis". Spooky.
So there are plenty of people who made utter spectacles of themselves already, and they aren't kippers.
I agree that people of all political persuasions will be tactless.
But the main party leaders will do fine, but one Kipper, rightly or wrongly will be the story.
Farage on twitter " Appalling as this attack is I appeal for calm across communities in the UK "
As I said, Farage will hit the right tone.
From UKIP website:
Following the news of the appalling incident in Woolwich this afternoon that has left a young soldier dead and others injured Nigel Farage, the UKIP leader said
“We are all left horrified by this appalling attack on the peaceful streets of London, and our thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the young man who was killed and those who were affected.”
“I hope and believe that this is an isolated incident and appeal for calm amongst all our communities.”
Am I first gen. or second gen.? I was born in India but came over after a few months. But my parents were already resident in the UK (my mother was caring for my sick grandfather before and after having me).
Am I first gen. or second gen.? I was born in India but came over after a few months. But my parents were already resident in the UK (my mother was caring for my sick grandfather before and after having me).
None.
You can get more British than a train spotting Depeche Mode fan.
I'd just like to say that the restrained comments by Richard Tyndall and Bill Etheridge do them great credit. The first question after an atrocity is what the perpetrators wanted to achieve, and then try to make sure they don't succeed.
Am I first gen. or second gen.? I was born in India but came over after a few months. But my parents were already resident in the UK (my mother was caring for my sick grandfather before and after having me).
These people were not crazies, they had a clear target, clear motive. They were sitting in wait for soldiers coming in and out. This guy was just unlucky and very possibly pretty much had his head taken from his body..
Those who still don't listen, this cant be just ruled as not Islamic extremism because it isnt a spectacular. Do not make the same mistake as was made over the Boston bombing by far too many of the public who didn't want to utter the Islamic extremist name because it didn't suit their sensibilities. Im glad the authorities have been straight.
Such an attack today fits perfectly within the high publicity, low need to organise nature of the Islamic extremist handbook.
The other question, I don't get, the police cant shoot straight, they should be dead.
And on the ethnic nature of the attackers, look up your history there have been plenty of people of black African origin lifted over the years.
Am I first gen. or second gen.? I was born in India but came over after a few months. But my parents were already resident in the UK (my mother was caring for my sick grandfather before and after having me).
Sunil , you're pluri-multi-generational , Indians are more English than tea , cricket or the English.
Am I first gen. or second gen.? I was born in India but came over after a few months. But my parents were already resident in the UK (my mother was caring for my sick grandfather before and after having me).
None.
You can get more British than a train spotting Depeche Mode fan.
I have been following Christian for months now on FB and before I got sent away to work my family and I were planning on going down to the beach at Gt Yarmouth for next weekend's family camp in support of him. Hopefully there will still be lots of people there to support him.
Tragic incident in Woolwich today hopefully the remaining perpetrators will be caught as quickly as possible and there will be no response from the likes of the EDL
Then I imagine few people would describe you as "Muslim looking".
Then you'd be wrong.
I don't know what you look like or how you dress. But from comments I have read you made on here, it seems like you do not wear Muslim dress and are of South Asian descent. It would seem pretty uneducated to say someone looks "Muslim looking" based on skin colour alone, considering most people of South Asian biology will be Indian Hindus.
Last year, I was in a bar in Manchester, my wife, who is white and English, was chatted up by some white English gentleman, she informed them, that guy coming back from the bar was her husband, they made a suggestion to her, that she had been groomed.
The security staff at the bar ejected the guys headfirst from the establishment.
As they were being ejected, they said, expletives deleted, "I can't believe you're protecting that Muslim paedo"
At the time I was wearing a pair of jeans and my England rugby shirt, and a pair of trainers.
My nephew's wife was originally from the Philippines (came here aged six to be raised by her aunt/uncle when her parents died). They've been together since school (in their 30s now). He says there's often a point in conversations at gatherings with people he doesn't know well when they probe the 'how did you meet?' vein. It happens when they're visiting the Philippines as well, to be fair.
These people were not crazies, they had a clear target, clear motive. They were sitting in wait for soldiers coming in and out. This guy was just unlucky and very possibly pretty much had his head taken from his body..
Those who still don't listen, this cant be just ruled as not Islamic extremism because it isnt a spectacular. Do not make the same mistake as was made over the Boston bombing by far too many of the public who didn't want to utter the Islamic extremist name because it didn't suit their sensibilities. Im glad the authorities have been straight.
Such an attack today fits perfectly within the high publicity, low need to organise nature of the Islamic extremist handbook.
The other question, I don't get, the police cant shoot straight, they should be dead.
And on the ethnic nature of the attackers, look up your history there have been plenty of people of black African origin lifted over the years.
I agree with 98% of this, as does the Telegraph's well informed security dude: Con Coughlin.
The one place I demur is the shooting by cops. Much as the atavist in me would have liked to see these guys mashed into pieces with machine guns, surely it is better to shoot off a leg or two, render them harmless, but keep them alive, so they can be questioned?
My understanding of police procedure for opening fire is that it is based on the principle that it will always be the absolute last resort in order to protect the public from an immediate deadly threat.
Because of that they are always taught to shoot to stop/kill so as to ensure that they succeed in that aim.
Also to be honest anyone who has fired a handgun will know that unlike what you see in films, aiming to hit someone in the leg/arm etc is extremely difficult. hence you aim for the body mass where you have the best chance of putting the target down.
These people were not crazies, they had a clear target, clear motive. They were sitting in wait for soldiers coming in and out. This guy was just unlucky and very possibly pretty much had his head taken from his body..
Those who still don't listen, this cant be just ruled as not Islamic extremism because it isnt a spectacular. Do not make the same mistake as was made over the Boston bombing by far too many of the public who didn't want to utter the Islamic extremist name because it didn't suit their sensibilities. Im glad the authorities have been straight.
Such an attack today fits perfectly within the high publicity, low need to organise nature of the Islamic extremist handbook.
The other question, I don't get, the police cant shoot straight, they should be dead.
And on the ethnic nature of the attackers, look up your history there have been plenty of people of black African origin lifted over the years.
I agree with 98% of this, as does the Telegraph's well informed security dude: Con Coughlin.
The one place I demur is the shooting by cops. Much as the atavist in me would have liked to see these guys mashed into pieces with machine guns, surely it is better to shoot off a leg or two, render them harmless, but keep them alive, so they can be questioned?
Shooting people in the arm or leg deliberately from distance while they are moving is very difficult and potentially dangerous, so I am told by an ex firearms officer. Their aim is for the torso. We do not know where the two were injured, but one is seriously wounded so the bullet must have hit vital organs or major vessels.
These people were not crazies, they had a clear target, clear motive. They were sitting in wait for soldiers coming in and out. This guy was just unlucky and very possibly pretty much had his head taken from his body..
Those who still don't listen, this cant be just ruled as not Islamic extremism because it isnt a spectacular. Do not make the same mistake as was made over the Boston bombing by far too many of the public who didn't want to utter the Islamic extremist name because it didn't suit their sensibilities. Im glad the authorities have been straight.
Such an attack today fits perfectly within the high publicity, low need to organise nature of the Islamic extremist handbook.
The other question, I don't get, the police cant shoot straight, they should be dead.
And on the ethnic nature of the attackers, look up your history there have been plenty of people of black African origin lifted over the years.
I agree with 98% of this, as does the Telegraph's well informed security dude: Con Coughlin.
The one place I demur is the shooting by cops. Much as the atavist in me would have liked to see these guys mashed into pieces with machine guns, surely it is better to shoot off a leg or two, render them harmless, but keep them alive, so they can be questioned?
If a cop coming upon a scene, where these a body lying in a road and some blokes waving stuff at you and approaching, seeks to shoot someone in the leg he's either thinking he is in a Hollywood movie or hes not doing his job. Once you pull the trigger you aim to kill thats how you are trained. Bear in mind firearms officers would have had some indications of the situation as they went to the scene. Generally in such scenarios with a lot of info coming in the trend is to exaggerate the situation not have it downplayed.
Secondly I have doubts to the intelligence value of these two in leading the cops somewhere new. If both are completely clean on intelligence databases I'll be surprised. Happy to be proven wrong but chances are that any network and association information will be picked up afterwards whether dead or alive.
They stood at the scene for long enough they had no desire to do this twice or cover tracks. Whats the chances of them turning tout? Small, not impossible, but small.
There's this scene in the movie "Copycat" where police officer Holly Hunter shoots a crim in the shoulder, apparently successfully disarming him after he tried to take her partner hostage in a police station. But while she's on the verge of being congratulated by her partner and other officers then the crim manages to re-take his weapon off the floor and shoots her partner dead. I always find that poignant.
These people were not crazies, they had a clear target, clear motive. They were sitting in wait for soldiers coming in and out. This guy was just unlucky and very possibly pretty much had his head taken from his body..
Those who still don't listen, this cant be just ruled as not Islamic extremism because it isnt a spectacular. Do not make the same mistake as was made over the Boston bombing by far too many of the public who didn't want to utter the Islamic extremist name because it didn't suit their sensibilities. Im glad the authorities have been straight.
Such an attack today fits perfectly within the high publicity, low need to organise nature of the Islamic extremist handbook.
The other question, I don't get, the police cant shoot straight, they should be dead.
And on the ethnic nature of the attackers, look up your history there have been plenty of people of black African origin lifted over the years.
I agree with 98% of this, as does the Telegraph's well informed security dude: Con Coughlin.
The one place I demur is the shooting by cops. Much as the atavist in me would have liked to see these guys mashed into pieces with machine guns, surely it is better to shoot off a leg or two, render them harmless, but keep them alive, so they can be questioned?
Shooting people in the arm or leg deliberately from distance while they are moving is very difficult and potentially dangerous, so I am told by an ex firearms officer. Their aim is for the torso. We do not know where the two were injured, but one is seriously wounded so the bullet must have hit vital organs or major vessels.
That and the fact that even natural muzzle climb or sway should still see a fair chance of finishing someone off.
I have been following Christian for months now on FB and before I got sent away to work my family and I were planning on going down to the beach at Gt Yarmouth for next weekend's family camp in support of him. Hopefully there will still be lots of people there to support him.
Indeed. I was planning to purposefully 'bump into' him on the quieter parts of the Essex coast near Bradwell a couple of weeks ago, but work got in the way. It's a good job too, as he seems to be getting slightly overwhelmed by all the support he's getting, and that was the first day's walk he'd had on his own for weeks.
I'd still like to meet up with him elsewhere, probably somewhere remote.
An amazing guy.
There are several other guys walking the coast at the moment; all amazing in their own ways. But sleeping rough each night just bumps up the amazingness a couple of levels. ;-)
Comments
We're nowhere near doing enough to challenge the extreme views. In part, I think that's because we don't really understand ideologies, let alone religiously-based/inspired ideologies and so find it hard to counter them. And we're too willing to feel guilty or that it's bad form to criticise someone from another non-European culture. There are lots of reasons but the reality is that challenging the poisonous Islamist ideology here is essential - far more essential than sending arms to Syria or whatever.
I think one day the damn will burst and there will be reciprocal agreements with a few countries.
The biggest problem is the facebook generation, I've known of a few instances where people have been thrown off a jury for checking out the accused/witnesses on facebook and twitter.
One of the other what?
I stress once again: such talk effects people, and generally in a negative way. I'm probably seen by many on here as one of the select groups of 'PBTories', and yet can see a whole other aspect to this conversation. And suddenly I'm a leftie ;-)
Still, my fish pie's coming out of the oven, and Mrs J's getting fractious. Evening everyone, and let's be careful with out talk.
If I have upset or offended anyone, than sorry. But if so, ask yourself if your words might have had similar effects.
Tom Witherow @TomWitherow 31m
Of course another person was accused of having a 'Muslim appearance'. He was called Jean Charles De Menezes. #woolwich #bbc
Anyway am Keeping Calm and Carrying On by Going Home Now.
"This attack was deliberately done in this fashion to stimulate hate between None Muslims and Muslims by sick extremists. This is not about Islam and there should be no repercussions towards innocent people of that faith. Having said that, the people who committed this sickening act should, in my personal opinion, be executed. I feel physically sick at what I have seen and my deep sincere sympathy to this poor young man's family"
I may not agree with him about the capital punishment comment but he is absolutely right that the way in which this attack was carried out was clearly intended to be provocative and stir up resentment and hatred. The best way to combat such bestial behaviour is to continue to behave in a civilised manner and not thrash out at innocent people just because of their faith.
And it does whiff a bit, if you'll forgive the pun...
1) The UKIPpers will feel utterly vindicated in their view that the country is going to the dogs and that immigrants are part of the problem.
2) Racial tensions will be inflamed.
3) A lot of stupid theories will be put forward on minimal evidence. Rational thought will be at a premium for a few days and possibly weeks.
At the moment, that's as far as I feel able to go.
I feel terrible for the man's family. It is just awful.
And I've been reading the comments below about where the attacker is 'from' (I haven't a clue) and I know this is a terribly trite thing to say but the black guy with blood on his hands just looks like any tall, fit, muscular African footballer. Not someone I would associate with terrorism in my own blinkered stereotypes.
Terrible.
Don't get me wrong. All I want from the jihadis is for them to be deceased, which seems to me to be a fair degree of reciprocity after my near miss on 7/7.
Still, there is something pleasing about the idea of the perps waking up in ITU, wondering where the houris are and realising that that horrid pain there is not the result of over enthusiastic fellatio but rather a catheter. And they will go down forever.
That eyewitness tweet in patois on twitter! Wonderful use of language - write as you speak. Big shout out to the robocop Trojan, who didn't have time to get out of the vehicle, so I am guessing took them down with her sidearm through the window. Heroine. And a woman took them down.
Cameron does statesmanship very well, Boris' interjection was very measured and hit the right tone.
Ed will do well.
Ditto Farage, but you can guarantee at least one Kipper will say something inappropriate and tasteless and some will extrapolate that all Kippers are like that.
But the main party leaders will do fine, but one Kipper, rightly or wrongly will be the story.
Describe a Christian outfit to me.
http://politicsworldwide.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/british-muslims.jpg
And yet some people on this threat are suggesting this isn;t a major incident. Of course its a bl88dy major incident.
The footwear alone is too boring for me.
Again referring to that eyewitness "robocop" tweet - "on sumn". I do think that a case can be made that that style of radical, salafist islamism is a mental illness, the more so given the calmness displayed by them. The problem with this idea though is that it is an infectious disease.
In any case punishment, justice, and with many crimes, lessons for other potential criminals, are far more important.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10074586/Woolwich-attack-Women-passers-by-hailed-as-heroes-for-shielding-body-of-dead-solider.html
Me getting closer to UKIP? no effing chance.
If I wanted Ed Miliband as PM, I'd vote Labour.
Or perhaps not.
In footage, obtained by The Sun, one of the terrorists speaks directly in to the camera bragging about the horrific attack boasting the public and their "children" were targets of extremists.
He says: "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you...Your people will never be safe.
“In our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe.
"Remove your governments they don't care about you.
"You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our guns you think politicians are going to die? No it's going to be the average guy, like you, and your children.
"So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so can all live in peace.”
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4938197/shooting-in-woolwich-london.html#ixzz2U3B3qxzA
There is currently an ex-army man walking around the coast of Britain to raise money for Help for Heroes. He is also trying to raise awareness for the scandal of ex-servicemen who end up sleeping rough.
To do this, he is is sleeping rough every night. So far, he has been out for around 250 consecutive nights. As some of you know, ten years ago I walked the coast of Britain but had a nice, warm camper van and girlfriend to return to each night. What he is doing is absolutely amazing. He has already survived one winter outside.
If, like me, you are horrified by this attack, consider supporting him or the charity itself. This post of his (sorry, Facebook only) is worth a read:
http://www.facebook.com/christian.britain.3?hc_location=stream
His name is Christian Nock, and he deserves all the support he can get. It is an amazing, unbelievable feat. I'm quite in awe.
http://www.christianaroundbritain.co.uk/
The security staff at the bar ejected the guys headfirst from the establishment.
As they were being ejected, they said, expletives deleted, "I can't believe you're protecting that Muslim paedo"
At the time I was wearing a pair of jeans and my England rugby shirt, and a pair of trainers.
India population 1.2 billion, 13% Muslims = 156 million
Pakistan population 190 million, 97% Muslim = 184 million
Bangladesh population 165 million , 85% Muslim = 140 million
140+184+156 = 480 million Muslim
1200 mill. + 190 + 165 = 1555 million South Asia
480/1555 x 100 = 31% Muslim
But overall I'm not very religious at all.
I was born in India but came over after a few months. But my parents were already resident in the UK (my mother was caring for my sick grandfather before and after having me).
You can get more British than a train spotting Depeche Mode fan.
TSE - that sounds disgusting - sympathies.
These people were not crazies, they had a clear target, clear motive. They were sitting in wait for soldiers coming in and out. This guy was just unlucky and very possibly pretty much had his head taken from his body..
Those who still don't listen, this cant be just ruled as not Islamic extremism because it isnt a spectacular. Do not make the same mistake as was made over the Boston bombing by far too many of the public who didn't want to utter the Islamic extremist name because it didn't suit their sensibilities. Im glad the authorities have been straight.
Such an attack today fits perfectly within the high publicity, low need to organise nature of the Islamic extremist handbook.
The other question, I don't get, the police cant shoot straight, they should be dead.
And on the ethnic nature of the attackers, look up your history there have been plenty of people of black African origin lifted over the years.
I hope you got a chance to read it before he deleted it - it was very pertinent to today's tragic events.
There but for the grace of God...
http://www.christianaroundbritain.co.uk/
(Also @MonikerDiCanio and @Socrates)
Because of that they are always taught to shoot to stop/kill so as to ensure that they succeed in that aim.
Also to be honest anyone who has fired a handgun will know that unlike what you see in films, aiming to hit someone in the leg/arm etc is extremely difficult. hence you aim for the body mass where you have the best chance of putting the target down.
Secondly I have doubts to the intelligence value of these two in leading the cops somewhere new. If both are completely clean on intelligence databases I'll be surprised. Happy to be proven wrong but chances are that any network and association information will be picked up afterwards whether dead or alive.
They stood at the scene for long enough they had no desire to do this twice or cover tracks. Whats the chances of them turning tout? Small, not impossible, but small.
I'd still like to meet up with him elsewhere, probably somewhere remote.
An amazing guy.
There are several other guys walking the coast at the moment; all amazing in their own ways. But sleeping rough each night just bumps up the amazingness a couple of levels. ;-)