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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the latest YouGov IndyRef poll is right then the outcome

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited September 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the latest YouGov IndyRef poll is right then the outcome could be very close indeed

What’s striking is that YouGov has been one of the pollsters which over the months has shown YES in one of the worst positions. This poll suggests that there’s been a marked turnaround.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Is very interesting
  • On the flip side, this is yet another poll showing No ahead.

    Didn't Blair Jenkins say Yes would be ahead by September?
  • A huge swing, 12% to yes. A 6% lead for No from yougov is a big deal
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    It's a shame that certain Scottish posters and websites are not welcome on PB.

    They could have told punters a while ago about things like undecideds, Labour supporters, turnout, ground campaigns etc.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    FPT.

    If it is a YES vote......Will you all miss me from PB?
    ;-)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    This is all making me quite anxious. Will be glad once it is settled one way or another!
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited September 2014
    Assuming all is as it seems, remind me to ask Alistair Darling to lead Better Off Out in a Euro Ref.
  • this poll was taken in the 3 days after last Monday's debate, but taken a week to report - so probably mostly a bounce from that - the same happened with Survation after the first vote it bounced back to normal

    Poll at end of this week should have the debate stuff out of the way?
  • To avoid any confusion, this appears to be a joint Sun and Times poll.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    MarkPolls said:

    this poll was taken in the 3 days after last Monday's debate, but taken a week to report - so probably mostly a bounce from that - the same happened with Survation after the first vote it bounced back to normal

    Poll at end of this week should have the debate stuff out of the way?

    Welcome. If confirmed, the fieldwork dates would be a crumb of comfort, I guess.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited September 2014
    Indy Ref is looking not unlike the election that started all this off - The 2011 Scottish election - Which saw a very late surge for Alex Salmond and the SNP.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    A bit of an overreaction, the way people were talking it sounded like Yes was in the lead.
  • On the flip side, this is yet another poll showing No ahead.

    Didn't Blair Jenkins say Yes would be ahead by September?

    'not until' September.
    I think he's wily enough not let that hostage of fortune be taken.

  • WRT Currency Union.
    Why doesn't Cameron say that it would be subject to a UK wide referendum?
  • RobD said:

    MarkPolls said:

    this poll was taken in the 3 days after last Monday's debate, but taken a week to report - so probably mostly a bounce from that - the same happened with Survation after the first vote it bounced back to normal

    Poll at end of this week should have the debate stuff out of the way?

    Welcome. If confirmed, the fieldwork dates would be a crumb of comfort, I guess.
    Only if the later poll shows a revision to mean. But here on the ground, theBigMo seems quite evident for yes.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    GIN1138 said:

    Indy Ref is looking not unlike the election that started all this off - The 2011 Scottish election.

    Lol! You sound surprised!

    I'm not sure what No have got left in the locker. All the momentum is with Yes.

    The No campaign hasn't been as bad as some make out, btw. Their databases and targetting are, I believe, pretty damn impressive. But will it be enough?
  • On the flip side, this is yet another poll showing No ahead.

    Didn't Blair Jenkins say Yes would be ahead by September?

    'not until' September.
    I think he's wily enough not let that hostage of fortune be taken.

    Cheers.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    Hugh said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Indy Ref is looking not unlike the election that started all this off - The 2011 Scottish election.

    Lol! You sound surprised!


    Not really...
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    Hugh said:

    It's a shame that certain Scottish posters and websites are not welcome on PB.

    They could have told punters a while ago about things like undecideds, Labour supporters, turnout, ground campaigns etc.

    Some of the regular posters here are rather too ready to accept the DT and Scotsman as gospel, so it can be depressing.

    I almost stopped posting completely when one of the usual persons posted a Scotsman story about 16 and 17 year olds being overwhelmingly no. It took me about 4 minutes to find it was a marketing ploy by a financial company (IFA sort of business) and not even a voodoo poll. And not only did the Scotsman trot it out as a front page story but a poster on this site thought it worth reporting without even a health warning.

    On another tack: the Scottish Police Fed have told Mr Darling and chums to stop pretending there will be 'absolute carnage' at polling stations on the 18th (Herald this morning).
    http://wingsoverscotland.com/bringing-the-smackdown/

    also
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/01/scotland-referendum-campaigns-civil-police
  • Most annoyingly the Ladbrokes price for YES at 45-50% changed as I was trying to deposit some money. My debit card had expired and I had to enter new details for another card as the website wouldn't let me edit my old one.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,970
    Look on the bright side.....Jack's oversold McARSE will have been revealed to be just hot air which means Big John's is now the new GOLD STANDARD.........

    EIC WILL BE PM!!

  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited September 2014
    It's worth pointing out that there has been no UK GE with an 80% plus turnout since 1951. In 2010 the turnout in Scotland was 63.1%. Many people will be voting who have never voted before. I do wonder how the polls are weighted to account for these previous non-voters, many of whom will be beyond the reach of internet panels and landline phones.
  • MarkPolls said:

    this poll was taken in the 3 days after last Monday's debate, but taken a week to report - so probably mostly a bounce from that - the same happened with Survation after the first vote it bounced back to normal

    Poll at end of this week should have the debate stuff out of the way?

    Yes, post-debate froth and nonsense. I was speaking to an old friend over the weekend - the most astute analyst of politics I've ever known. He spent several years in Scotland and is utterly convinced No will win. There might be some hovering of pencils, but a race so naturally cautious, astute and punctilious as the Scots will never sign up to the kind of magical mystery tour Salmond and his mob are flogging.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    WRT Currency Union.
    Why doesn't Cameron say that it would be subject to a UK wide referendum?

    I think that we need a referendum on the order of all the referendums demanded. Conducted under AV.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    edited September 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    FPT.

    If it is a YES vote......Will you all miss me from PB?
    ;-)

    Not just you but Malcolm, TUD, Stuart, and - in shock tweet (so to speak) - the Scottish Crossbill, Golden Eagle, and (as far as I can remember) the Phalarope. to name a few others:

    twitter.com/alawevans/status/506404216198672384/photo/1


  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited September 2014
    Unionists look away now, Yes have won

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 40s

    If the people of Scotland vote for independence I'll streak naked down Princes Street. It isn't happening folks.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    edited September 2014
    Independence Celebs ‏@Celebs4indy 2 mins

    PETER KELLNER 'When I first saw the results, I wanted to make sure this movement was real. It is.' #Yougov
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    PeterC said:

    It's worth pointing out that there has been no UK GE with an 80% plus turnout since 1951. In 2010 the turnout in Scotland was 63.1%. Many people will be voting who have never voted before. I do wonder how the polls are weighted to account for these previous non-voters, many of whom will be beyond the reach of internet panels and landline phones.

    Precisely. 5/5 for spotting a crucial issue.

  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Dan the terminally wrong has spoken. It's done. Scotland will become an independent country.

    If the people of Scotland vote for independence I'll streak naked down Princes Street. It isn't happening folks.

    @DPJHodges
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2014
    Evening all.

    Things are hotting up - I take it there have been no tinkerings with YouGov's methodology?
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Per previous thread, is it conceivable that a renegotiation with the EU could happen at the same time as Scottish independence is being negotiated? Can UK plc cope with two such profound changes at the same time?
  • Surely the Orange Order walk and Nigel Farage rally will calm the Unionists?
  • In 2011 there was a huge late swing to the SNP and Salmond that didn't really show up in the polls, not until the very end at least.

    Sadly, I see little ability in NO to fight to the finish and turn this around. So many seem to have given up. Murphy's not on the streets, Darling has lost his confidence, Galloway's been beaten up and Brown is invisible. Some of the NO TV spots and ads are awful.

    I think YES has played very dirty - as well as promising nirvana - but they've won over the hearts of most Scots and silenced the rest. But they only need to win once.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Roger said:

    Look on the bright side.....Jack's oversold McARSE will have been revealed to be just hot air which means Big John's is now the new GOLD STANDARD.........

    EIC WILL BE PM!!

    JackW is rarely far off. I have a pretty healthy profit on most outcomes, but will do best with Jacks McARSE result (40.5% and turnout 80.5%).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FPT @SeanT

    "Now Game of Thrones"

    Catastrophic. I now think the union is lost ... Recession will ensue for us all.

    Dark times.


    You working on the next episode?

    ;-)
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    I think, yes. Not the morning after. But within a week or so... Maybe after his first audience with HMQ.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Unionists look away now, Yes have won

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges 40s

    If the people of Scotland vote for independence I'll streak naked down Princes Street. It isn't happening folks.

    If Dan Hodges gets naked we're *all* going to have to look away.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @HurstLlama

    You are playing it the smart way though: stay with one firm for the basics and then shop around for other products needed as appropriate. That's exactly the right way to play it. Too many people just stick with the same bank for everything.

    The other problem is free current account banking. It's completely crazy: the infrastructure needed to support current accounts is hugely expensive - and the refusal of customers to pay for it means that banks need to find the money from other places, whether it is unreasonable flat fees for minor transgressions, ludicrous penalties or cross-selling of inappropriate products.

    My Dad has spent many years impressing on me the view that banking should be like a utility: conservative, low return and boring. None of this fancy stuff - most customers don't need, want or understand the products.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Re the King family: Whatever the legal position, it is an act of inhumanity to deprive a dying child of contact with his parents and his siblings. It is an act of inhumanity to lock up those parents and deprive them of contact with their son.

    Unless there is evidence or very strong suspicion of cruelty or harm to the child by their presence could such an order, IMO, be justified. Has anyone said this?

    I repeat what I said on earlier threads: if he dies, how are the authorities - both here and in Spain - going to feel/react? How do they imagine his parents and his family will feel? How do they think his parents are feeling now?

    If the issue is what is the best health care for the little boy, that is something which could be sorted out, with a little goodwill. But such draconian powers should only be used in extremis not because a hospital does not agree with what the parents are doing.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    Richard N is useless on this.

    Cameron will resign. His class background ensures it. The prime minister of Great Britain who facilitated the end of Great Britain? What an idiot. He will feel rightfully ashamed and will be faced with seeing out the last months of his career as the most derided or reviled figure in politics, with the Queen staring at him *that way* every week.

    Who would want to continue in that situation? What's the point? Is he in it for the pension? Hardly.

    He will see a resignation as the only way of gaining some honour and self respect. And he will be right.
    As for HM, she will still be Queen of Scots, with the Scottish title senior to the EWNI one, so no earthly reason why she has lost anything. Note that, unlike previous referenda etc., the Queen has kept strictly out of indyref. (And I strongly suspect the Court has seen this coming for 20+ years, given their positioning of certain members.)

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Hope Yes wins... if its a narrow No Scotland will be in bits for years

    On the football transfer front.. Hull seem to be making a lot of signings

    Gaston Ramirez, Hatem Ben Arfa, & Abel Hernandez... all decent
  • twidtwid Posts: 14
    How close are we to a situation where Yes becomes favoured by the bookmakers?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    Fpt

    "They will be dark times on here for sure, can you imagine MalcolmG's conceit. There will be no point in coming here for weeks.

    Whisper this: From the point of view of the ordinary English person it will be rather good news,"


    It really won't be "good news", not at first. There will be chaos, capital flight, a run on the £, property markets will be hammered. Ghastly. And all this as we still deal with one of the biggest deficits in the west, in times of appalling uncertainty - this is the moment we mutilate ourselves?

    What will the rest of the world think of us? Investors? Money men? You think this will all be fine?

    Wise up.

    In the end it will be good for England to see labour crippled. In the end it might be good for Scotland to stand alone. Maybe.

    But there will be nastiness and acrimony and recession before we get there.

    Sheep will panic in the markets, but that is usually a good buying opportunity for the long term, and it is about time that property prices became more realistic.

    England will be fine with the outcome, but Rexel65 is right. Nothing else would feature in politics for the next couple of years.

    The prospect of kippers and scotnats frothing about betrayals on PB is enough to drive a man to drink.
  • Roger said:

    Look on the bright side.....Jack's oversold McARSE will have been revealed to be just hot air which means Big John's is now the new GOLD STANDARD.........

    EIC WILL BE PM!!

    I thought at the time there was a lot of hubris in JackW making his final ARSE prediction here weeks ago claiming it was all over.

    That was before the 2nd debate where Darling looked like a frightened child, stumbled over his words, looked like he wasn't sure he believed what he was saying and (most importantly) simply couldn't handle Salmond.

    And this man was one of Labour's "big guns" for years?
  • YouGov #indyref pol

    YES 42%(+4), NO 48%(-4), DK/WNV 10%(-1)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    No.

    Deeply saddened and disappointed. A real shame. But the people of Scotland have voted. So now we must look to build a brighter future. Together. As partners. Independent. But friends. etc. etc. until you want to throw up.
  • Tonight's YouGov/Sun GE poll - CON just 1% behind
    CON 34%, LAB 35%, LD 7%, UKIP 14%
  • Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 10s

    ComRes phone poll for the Indy sees LAB lead increase to 7%
    CON 28+1
    LAB 35+2
    LD 9+1
    UKIP 17=
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334

    Roger said:

    Look on the bright side.....Jack's oversold McARSE will have been revealed to be just hot air which means Big John's is now the new GOLD STANDARD.........

    EIC WILL BE PM!!

    I thought at the time there was a lot of hubris in JackW making his final ARSE prediction here weeks ago claiming it was all over.

    That was before the 2nd debate where Darling looked like a frightened child, stumbled over his words, looked like he wasn't sure he believed what he was saying and (most importantly) simply couldn't handle Salmond.

    And this man was one of Labour's "big guns" for years?
    Not just that, but an advocate (Anglice, barrister) by trade. Though I'm not sure how much time he actually spent on his feet in court.

  • twid said:

    How close are we to a situation where Yes becomes favoured by the bookmakers?

    Not until a poll has them ahead.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    No.

    Deeply saddened and disappointed. A real shame. But the people of Scotland have voted. So now we must look to build a brighter future. Together. As partners. Independent. But friends. etc. etc. until you want to throw up.
    I think I agree.

    Sean's argument is compelling too though.

    Say there's a 50/50 chances of Yes, and a 50/50 chance of Dave going. That's 25% chance of Cameron stepping down in a few weeks.

    Decisions decisions...
  • SeanT, that may be how it plays out but it would be unjust. After the SNP won Holyrood in 2011 with a mandate to hold a referendum on independence, the only thing any democratic leader could do was grant it. Cameron is by no means the most culpable for the poor no campaign.

    It still isn't over. Yes clearly have the momentum, but this could be an outlier, or just an overreaction to the debate. We need more polling to know.
  • All those predicting Dave's resignation, just remember the following

    I'm editing PB straight after the Indyref, when Mike goes on holiday, and nothing major ever happens when Mike goes on holiday.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Charles said:

    @HurstLlama

    You are playing it the smart way though: stay with one firm for the basics and then shop around for other products needed as appropriate. That's exactly the right way to play it. Too many people just stick with the same bank for everything.

    The other problem is free current account banking. It's completely crazy: the infrastructure needed to support current accounts is hugely expensive - and the refusal of customers to pay for it means that banks need to find the money from other places, whether it is unreasonable flat fees for minor transgressions, ludicrous penalties or cross-selling of inappropriate products.

    My Dad has spent many years impressing on me the view that banking should be like a utility: conservative, low return and boring. None of this fancy stuff - most customers don't need, want or understand the products.

    Call me old-fashioned, Charles, but the bank takes my money and pays me a tiny amount of interest. It lends out that money and charges the borrower a considerably larger interest rate. The difference between what it pays me and what it receives is the pot of money from which it pays the costs of providing the basic cheque book/hole in the wall and other services I get for my current account. It's not free because I am paying for it by effectively giving the bank a loan at a rate less than the market rate.

    What banks want to do with all their talk of ending "free banking" is carry on paying me a derisory rate and then charge me on top for accessing my own money, which is losing value because I am not getting a proper return on it.

    No thanks.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Cyclefree said:

    Re the King family: Whatever the legal position, it is an act of inhumanity to deprive a dying child of contact with his parents and his siblings. It is an act of inhumanity to lock up those parents and deprive them of contact with their son.

    Unless there is evidence or very strong suspicion of cruelty or harm to the child by their presence could such an order, IMO, be justified. Has anyone said this?

    I repeat what I said on earlier threads: if he dies, how are the authorities - both here and in Spain - going to feel/react? How do they imagine his parents and his family will feel? How do they think his parents are feeling now?

    If the issue is what is the best health care for the little boy, that is something which could be sorted out, with a little goodwill. But such draconian powers should only be used in extremis not because a hospital does not agree with what the parents are doing.

    It is absolute filth
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It'll be fun to see what happens in Catalonia if Scotland votes Yes.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    All those predicting Dave's resignation, just remember the following

    I'm editing PB straight after the Indyref, when Mike goes on holiday, and nothing major ever happens when Mike goes on holiday.

    OGH has to cancel his holiday, for the Union!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 10s

    ComRes phone poll for the Indy sees LAB lead increase to 7%
    CON 28+1
    LAB 35+2
    LD 9+1
    UKIP 17=

    UKIP inexorably moving towards 20% to coincide with Carswell's victory in Clacton. Whether they will be able to remain at that level will be interesting.
  • RobD said:

    All those predicting Dave's resignation, just remember the following

    I'm editing PB straight after the Indyref, when Mike goes on holiday, and nothing major ever happens when Mike goes on holiday.

    OGH has to cancel his holiday, for the Union!
    He goes on holiday the day after the result comes out.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited September 2014
    Hugh said:

    Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    No.

    Deeply saddened and disappointed. A real shame. But the people of Scotland have voted. So now we must look to build a brighter future. Together. As partners. Independent. But friends. etc. etc. until you want to throw up.
    I think I agree.

    Sean's argument is compelling too though.

    Say there's a 50/50 chances of Yes, and a 50/50 chance of Dave going. That's 25% chance of Cameron stepping down in a few weeks.

    Decisions decisions...
    There will be tough choices ahead. Serious discussions. We will not agree on everything. But I know in my heart. In all our hearts. That these days will pass. As two proud, independent nations we will be closer than ever before.
  • AndyJS said:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 10s

    ComRes phone poll for the Indy sees LAB lead increase to 7%
    CON 28+1
    LAB 35+2
    LD 9+1
    UKIP 17=

    UKIP inexorably moving towards 20% to coincide with Carswell's victory in Clacton. Whether they will be able to remain at that level will be interesting.
    Err UKIP haven't moved in this poll.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Cyclefree said:

    Re the King family: Whatever the legal position, it is an act of inhumanity to deprive a dying child of contact with his parents and his siblings. It is an act of inhumanity to lock up those parents and deprive them of contact with their son.

    Unless there is evidence or very strong suspicion of cruelty or harm to the child by their presence could such an order, IMO, be justified. Has anyone said this?

    I repeat what I said on earlier threads: if he dies, how are the authorities - both here and in Spain - going to feel/react? How do they imagine his parents and his family will feel? How do they think his parents are feeling now?

    If the issue is what is the best health care for the little boy, that is something which could be sorted out, with a little goodwill. But such draconian powers should only be used in extremis not because a hospital does not agree with what the parents are doing.

    Parents who took him away without medication? Parents who took their child away from one set of doctors to another set (we assume) but did not bother to take any medical records with them. What sort of medical treatment is that.
    One can have some sympathy with the parents but why should that translate into the usual knee jerk attack on the people who are responsible for his treatment? The dreaded 'authorities'?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    I am one of the non-Scottish brigade on here who has said from the start of this year that I would not be surprised to see Scotland vote for independence.

    The No campaign has been awful, from what I can gather. It certainly has not persuaded me - a Londoner - why we're better together. So I can't imagine why it would persuade a Scotsman or woman of that.

    From a political perspective it would be rather fun to see what would happen as a result.

    And now for the important question: should I move my money from RBS when I return from my hols on the 15th of September?
  • An amusing wee Indy snippet; there will be wailing & gnashing of teeth at Speccie Towers.

    Mark McDonald ‏@markmcdsnp 31 mins
    So at tonight's @WomenForIndy event in Oldmeldrum I met @FraserNelson's auntie. The world is full of surprises.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 10s

    ComRes phone poll for the Indy sees LAB lead increase to 7%
    CON 28+1
    LAB 35+2
    LD 9+1
    UKIP 17=

    UKIP inexorably moving towards 20% to coincide with Carswell's victory in Clacton. Whether they will be able to remain at that level will be interesting.
    Err UKIP haven't moved in this poll.
    Their average is moving up slowly. They needed to remain at about 17% with this poll to avoid losing momentum in terms of the average.
  • If Scotland goes, our union flag becomes irrelevant. It will reopen the sore of Northern Ireland. It might lead to increases in call for separation in Wales. Our UN Security Council seat comes under question, so does our international influence generally. It may weaken our leadership of the Commonwealth and hasten the move to republicanism in the remaining Conmonwealth realms. It will weaken our mutual defence and promotion of common British values.

    But, more sadly than any of that, it will divide these islands and the families that live within them. There are more cultural similarities between ourselves and the Scots than any other nation I could name on earth. It would break my heart to see them go.

    I am oscillating between despair and resignation, to worried emotional appeals. And there's still 2.5 weeks to go.

    Grab me some Valium.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Should auld acquaintance be forgot...
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Are we seeing the second law of thermodynamics assert itself? Will age-old rancour towards us Sassenachs dominate? Is it time to start thinking about which Scottish town we want ours to be twinned with? Should OGH and I start an independence movement for Bedfordshire---citing Brussels sprouts as our export crop and policing with a bicycle-mounted police and army?

    Stay tuned.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2014
    The UK losing a third of its land area is a bracing thought. It wouldn't make much difference in terms of population of course: we'd still have about 60 million.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    @HurstLlama

    You are playing it the smart way though: stay with one firm for the basics and then shop around for other products needed as appropriate. That's exactly the right way to play it. Too many people just stick with the same bank for everything.

    The other problem is free current account banking. It's completely crazy: the infrastructure needed to support current accounts is hugely expensive - and the refusal of customers to pay for it means that banks need to find the money from other places, whether it is unreasonable flat fees for minor transgressions, ludicrous penalties or cross-selling of inappropriate products.

    My Dad has spent many years impressing on me the view that banking should be like a utility: conservative, low return and boring. None of this fancy stuff - most customers don't need, want or understand the products.

    Call me old-fashioned, Charles, but the bank takes my money and pays me a tiny amount of interest. It lends out that money and charges the borrower a considerably larger interest rate. The difference between what it pays me and what it receives is the pot of money from which it pays the costs of providing the basic cheque book/hole in the wall and other services I get for my current account. It's not free because I am paying for it by effectively giving the bank a loan at a rate less than the market rate.

    What banks want to do with all their talk of ending "free banking" is carry on paying me a derisory rate and then charge me on top for accessing my own money, which is losing value because I am not getting a proper return on it.

    No thanks.

    But the model you are describing is precisely the problem: it penalises the thrifty.

    If banks were able to charge for current accounts, they could pay sensible interest rates on the loans that they get from their customers and they wouldn't need to go chasing after hot money.

    The interest spread should be seen as a fee to cover the risk of the loan plus a fee for the service involved in the provision of liquidity.

    In general, there is very little in the world that wouldn't be improved by clear, fair and transparent charging structures.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030


    Grab me some Valium.

    Make that two.

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    SeanT said:

    Fpt

    "They will be dark times on here for sure, can you imagine MalcolmG's conceit. There will be no point in coming here for weeks.

    Whisper this: From the point of view of the ordinary English person it will be rather good news,"


    It really won't be "good news", not at first. There will be chaos, capital flight, a run on the £, property markets will be hammered. Ghastly. And all this as we still deal with one of the biggest deficits in the west, in times of appalling uncertainty - this is the moment we mutilate ourselves?

    What will the rest of the world think of us? Investors? Money men? You think this will all be fine?

    Wise up.

    In the end it will be good for England to see labour crippled. In the end it might be good for Scotland to stand alone. Maybe.

    But there will be nastiness and acrimony and recession before we get there.

    Sheep will panic in the markets, but that is usually a good buying opportunity for the long term, and it is about time that property prices became more realistic.

    England will be fine with the outcome, but Rexel65 is right. Nothing else would feature in politics for the next couple of years.

    The prospect of kippers and scotnats frothing about betrayals on PB is enough to drive a man to drink.
    Its already driven Farage to drink - he is never out of the pub if you look at his photos. He must be well and perpetually sozzled. Could be an act I suppose... but FVarage, put on an act? Nah. Who could believe that.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Michael Heaver ‏@Michael_Heaver · 2m
    Number of Clacton Conservatives follow @DouglasCarswell to UKIP. The Tory exodus continues. http://thetim.es/1unSqwF
  • Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    No.

    Deeply saddened and disappointed. A real shame. But the people of Scotland have voted. So now we must look to build a brighter future. Together. As partners. Independent. But friends. etc. etc. until you want to throw up.
    I think I agree.

    Sean's argument is compelling too though.

    Say there's a 50/50 chances of Yes, and a 50/50 chance of Dave going. That's 25% chance of Cameron stepping down in a few weeks.

    Decisions decisions...
    There will be tough choices ahead. Serious discussions. We will not agree on everything. But I know in my heart. In all our hearts. That these days will pass. As two proud, independent nations we will be closer than ever before.
    I can almost hear the Churchillian slur..
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    Cyclefree said:

    I am one of the non-Scottish brigade on here who has said from the start of this year that I would not be surprised to see Scotland vote for independence.

    The No campaign has been awful, from what I can gather. It certainly has not persuaded me - a Londoner - why we're better together. So I can't imagine why it would persuade a Scotsman or woman of that.

    From a political perspective it would be rather fun to see what would happen as a result.

    And now for the important question: should I move my money from RBS when I return from my hols on the 15th of September?

    Naah. It's a UK bank and will continue to be an EWNI one for your account (geography, and ownership by UK so therefore mostly still EWNI).


  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Cyclefree said:

    Re the King family: Whatever the legal position, it is an act of inhumanity to deprive a dying child of contact with his parents and his siblings. It is an act of inhumanity to lock up those parents and deprive them of contact with their son.

    Unless there is evidence or very strong suspicion of cruelty or harm to the child by their presence could such an order, IMO, be justified. Has anyone said this?

    I repeat what I said on earlier threads: if he dies, how are the authorities - both here and in Spain - going to feel/react? How do they imagine his parents and his family will feel? How do they think his parents are feeling now?

    If the issue is what is the best health care for the little boy, that is something which could be sorted out, with a little goodwill. But such draconian powers should only be used in extremis not because a hospital does not agree with what the parents are doing.

    Parents who took him away without medication? Parents who took their child away from one set of doctors to another set (we assume) but did not bother to take any medical records with them. What sort of medical treatment is that.
    One can have some sympathy with the parents but why should that translate into the usual knee jerk attack on the people who are responsible for his treatment? The dreaded 'authorities'?
    That would certainly justify getting him hospital treatment and it might well justify an order requiring them not to move him or even that someone else is present when they do see him.

    But to ban completely all contact between a dying child and his parents. Between him and his brothers and sisters? Really? How is that in the best interests of the little boy? He is sick and surrounded by strangers. When he calls for his "Mummy" in the middle of the night and she does not come, who comforts him?

    For God's sake: unless there is something we have not been told, it seems to me unnecessarily cruel to do what is being done here.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    If Scotland votes Yes

    (a) Cameron resigns (almost certainly).
    (b) Tories hold 305 seats out of 591 in Commons.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    No.

    Deeply saddened and disappointed. A real shame. But the people of Scotland have voted. So now we must look to build a brighter future. Together. As partners. Independent. But friends. etc. etc. until you want to throw up.
    I think I agree.

    Sean's argument is compelling too though.

    Say there's a 50/50 chances of Yes, and a 50/50 chance of Dave going. That's 25% chance of Cameron stepping down in a few weeks.

    Decisions decisions...
    So that's 4/1 against Cameron being gone by October? Sounds reasonable.

    Now look at the odds you can get on the next PM. Osborne is 25/1. Hague is 50/1.

    And that's if you think Charles's argument is as compelling as mine.
    25% is 3/1
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    edited September 2014
    Toms said:

    Are we seeing the second law of thermodynamics assert itself? Will age-old rancour towards us Sassenachs dominate? Is it time to start thinking about which Scottish town we want ours to be twinned with? Should OGH and I start an independence movement for Bedfordshire---citing Brussels sprouts as our export crop and policing with a bicycle-mounted police and army?

    Stay tuned.

    I'd like my place to twin with [edit] somewhere in Somerset or Dorset. Actually, that is a very good idea. If there is a Yes I will have a word with the Twinning Committee ...

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    edited September 2014
    AndyJS said:

    If Scotland votes Yes

    (a) Cameron resigns (almost certainly).
    (b) Tories hold 305 seats out of 591 in Commons.

    Not till Indy Day, which is after the next UKGE. Edit: subject to changes of plan, of course.

    English Parliament is a different matter, of course.

  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    What I don't understand is why Unionists didn't realise, long ago, how momentous this was.

    Instead there was complacency, condescension, boredom, ignorance. Braveheart! Cybernats! Currency! Give me strength.

    All while Yes was organising and preparing.

    Still, too early to write the Union's obituary. But squeeky bum time...
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Imagine being David Cameron right now.
    Scottish independence staring you in the face.
    UKIP seizing the narrative with a likely byelection victory and the prospect of a strong showing in coastal regions.
    A weak, socialist Labour leader with a fairly consistent poll lead, and even winning on votes won't necessarily be good enough even to continue the Coalition.
    At least he's got Clegg to keep him company
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    If Scotland goes, our union flag becomes irrelevant.

    Wont anyone think of the flag?!
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Eight months to go
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    @HurstLlama

    You are playing it the smart way though: stay with one firm for the basics and then shop around for other products needed as appropriate. That's exactly the right way to play it. Too many people just stick with the same bank for everything.

    The other problem is free current account banking. It's completely crazy: the infrastructure needed to support current accounts is hugely expensive - and the refusal of customers to pay for it means that banks need to find the money from other places, whether it is unreasonable flat fees for minor transgressions, ludicrous penalties or cross-selling of inappropriate products.

    My Dad has spent many years impressing on me the view that banking should be like a utility: conservative, low return and boring. None of this fancy stuff - most customers don't need, want or understand the products.

    the bank takes my money... It lends out that money...

    Er, no... With due respect I suggest having a look at the excellent Bank of England papers on how money is created..

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q1prereleasemoneycreation.pdf
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    WRT Currency Union.
    Why doesn't Cameron say that it would be subject to a UK wide referendum?

    I think that we need a referendum on the order of all the referendums demanded. Conducted under AV.

    WRT Currency Union.
    Why doesn't Cameron say that it would be subject to a UK wide referendum?

    I think that we need a referendum on the order of all the referendums demanded. Conducted under AV.
    You would have to have a referendum on that first. And then on the type of PR.
  • Come on Scotland, do the decent thing, vote Yes!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    You can understand some Scottish voters looking at Rotherham, and also at Carswell, according to their political point of view, and being not particularly impressed. More reasons to vote Yes.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    So we have YouGov saying ''CON 34%, LAB 35%, LD 7%, UKIP 14% '' But where is the New Carswell Party?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2014
    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    No.

    Deeply saddened and disappointed. A real shame. But the people of Scotland have voted. So now we must look to build a brighter future. Together. As partners. Independent. But friends. etc. etc. until you want to throw up.
    I think I agree.

    Sean's argument is compelling too though.

    Say there's a 50/50 chances of Yes, and a 50/50 chance of Dave going. That's 25% chance of Cameron stepping down in a few weeks.

    Decisions decisions...
    So that's 4/1 against Cameron being gone by October? Sounds reasonable.

    Now look at the odds you can get on the next PM. Osborne is 25/1. Hague is 50/1.

    And that's if you think Charles's argument is as compelling as mine.
    Wouldn't you be better off backing

    "Cameron to be replaced as Conservative Leader before the next Election" at 8/1

    or

    "Cameron to leave post of PM in 2014" at 16/1?

    If you think he is going to go in three weeks, the 16/1 is miles better... same odds and you dont have to guess who will replace him


  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    Relax - NO still 6 points ahead and this poll is probably at the high end of the range for YES.

    The UK will survive...
  • Cyclefree said:

    Re the King family: Whatever the legal position, it is an act of inhumanity to deprive a dying child of contact with his parents and his siblings. It is an act of inhumanity to lock up those parents and deprive them of contact with their son.

    Unless there is evidence or very strong suspicion of cruelty or harm to the child by their presence could such an order, IMO, be justified. Has anyone said this?

    I repeat what I said on earlier threads: if he dies, how are the authorities - both here and in Spain - going to feel/react? How do they imagine his parents and his family will feel? How do they think his parents are feeling now?

    If the issue is what is the best health care for the little boy, that is something which could be sorted out, with a little goodwill. But such draconian powers should only be used in extremis not because a hospital does not agree with what the parents are doing.

    The authorities will adopt the Sharon Shoesmith defence. All procedures were followed blah, blah.
    The outcome is irrelevant, protecting the officials is all that matters.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Oh no! If YES win in Scotland UKIP will have to change it's name.
    How does SUKIP sound for, SMALLER UNITED KINGDOM INDEPENDENCE PARTY?
    Or UKIPEW for, UNITED KINGDOM INDEPENDENCE PARTY ENLAND & WALES?
    Or DUKIP for, DISUNITED KINGDOM INDEPENDENCE PARTY?

    Only if Wales slips lose can we call it the ENGLISH INDEPENDENCE PARTY.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    @HurstLlama

    Y

    My Dad has spent many years impressing on me the view that banking should be like a utility: conservative, low return and boring. None of this fancy stuff - most customers don't need, want or understand the products.

    Call me old-fashioned, Charles, but the bank takes my money and pays me a tiny amount of interest. It lends out that money and charges the borrower a considerably larger interest rate. The difference between what it pays me and what it receives is the pot of money from which it pays the costs of providing the basic cheque book/hole in the wall and other services I get for my current account. It's not free because I am paying for it by effectively giving the bank a loan at a rate less than the market rate.

    What banks want to do with all their talk of ending "free banking" is carry on paying me a derisory rate and then charge me on top for accessing my own money, which is losing value because I am not getting a proper return on it.

    No thanks.

    But the model you are describing is precisely the problem: it penalises the thrifty.

    If banks were able to charge for current accounts, they could pay sensible interest rates on the loans that they get from their customers and they wouldn't need to go chasing after hot money.

    The interest spread should be seen as a fee to cover the risk of the loan plus a fee for the service involved in the provision of liquidity.

    In general, there is very little in the world that wouldn't be improved by clear, fair and transparent charging structures.
    Sorry: I am much more cynical than you. If free banking is ended, the banks will not pay me a sensible interest rate on my money and charge me a fair amount for the services they offer.

    And the reason I say that is that they don't currently pay a decent interest rate on those accounts where they charge a monthly fee for providing the square root of f*** all. They have tried selling those accounts to me and I have always asked whether I would get a better interest rate and they say no and I ask why I would buy the account then and they spout some drivel about possibly getting some holiday insurance at a preferential rate which usually turns out to be more expensive than what I can find elsewhere.

    No: what will happen is that they will continue to pay me diddly squat in interest and - in addition - charge me excessive fees for the privilege of accessing my own money. So a thrifty person will be screwed twice over.

    I may as well keep my money under the mattress.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    SeanT said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    No.

    Deeply saddened and disappointed. A real shame. But the people of Scotland have voted. So now we must look to build a brighter future. Together. As partners. Independent. But friends. etc. etc. until you want to throw up.
    I think I agree.

    Sean's argument is compelling too though.

    Say there's a 50/50 chances of Yes, and a 50/50 chance of Dave going. That's 25% chance of Cameron stepping down in a few weeks.

    Decisions decisions...
    So that's 4/1 against Cameron being gone by October? Sounds reasonable.

    Now look at the odds you can get on the next PM. Osborne is 25/1. Hague is 50/1.

    And that's if you think Charles's argument is as compelling as mine.
    25% is 3/1
    Indeed. My maths is fecked by emotion, and by a bottle of (rather good) German red.

    What a cretin Cameron is. He could have offered Devomax, screwed labour, and avoided all this. Salmond would gleefully have seized it.

    If Scots go YES, Cameron's will be the greatest political miscalculation in modern British history. Maybe all of British history. Which is fitting, as it will see the end of Britain.

    The idea he will not resign becomes more farcical by the minute.
    Have suggested a good bet for you in another answer

    16/1 Cameron out in 2014

    Better than 50/1 & 25/1 Hague & Osborne
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    SeanT said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    No.

    Deeply saddened and disappointed. A real shame. But the people of Scotland have voted. So now we must look to build a brighter future. Together. As partners. Independent. But friends. etc. etc. until you want to throw up.
    I think I agree.

    Sean's argument is compelling too though.

    Say there's a 50/50 chances of Yes, and a 50/50 chance of Dave going. That's 25% chance of Cameron stepping down in a few weeks.

    Decisions decisions...
    So that's 4/1 against Cameron being gone by October? Sounds reasonable.

    Now look at the odds you can get on the next PM. Osborne is 25/1. Hague is 50/1.

    And that's if you think Charles's argument is as compelling as mine.
    25% is 3/1
    Indeed. My maths is fecked by emotion, and by a bottle of (rather good) German red.

    What a cretin Cameron is. He could have offered Devomax, screwed labour, and avoided all this. Salmond would gleefully have seized it.

    If Scots go YES, Cameron's will be the greatest political miscalculation in modern British history. Maybe all of British history. Which is fitting, as it will see the end of Britain.

    The idea he will not resign becomes more farcical by the minute.
    Part of your posting is an absolute myth. Mr Salmond and the SNP wanted indy. But the voters themselves definitely wanted devomax, so your logic is quite right.

    You could perhaps inquire whether it really is Mr C's fault (should a Yes happen) but rather whether the Tory backbenchers were so unwilling to let him lead them that they may end up dissolving the Union.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Charles said:

    Hugh said:

    Will Cameron stand down?

    Will he?

    I lean towards No.

    What think others, Richard N for example?

    No.

    Deeply saddened and disappointed. A real shame. But the people of Scotland have voted. So now we must look to build a brighter future. Together. As partners. Independent. But friends. etc. etc. until you want to throw up.
    I think I agree.

    Sean's argument is compelling too though.

    Say there's a 50/50 chances of Yes, and a 50/50 chance of Dave going. That's 25% chance of Cameron stepping down in a few weeks.

    Decisions decisions...
    There will be tough choices ahead. Serious discussions. We will not agree on everything. But I know in my heart. In all our hearts. That these days will pass. As two proud, independent nations we will be closer than ever before.
    I can almost hear the Churchillian slur..
    There is a fantastic recording of Churchill speaking to the US Congress (I can't track it down, but would love to). In a flawless American accent. It's completely unexpected - his "voice" (which I think may have been an actor anyway) is so imprinted on our collective memory
This discussion has been closed.