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  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    The Rotherham case is just enormous. Shattering. It's so big it's hard to comprehend.

    One thousand four hundred girls raped and abused. That would be shocking if it was a UK-wide stat. But it is from just one northern town. And presumably is not unique.

    This has the potential to change our political landscape, when people grasp the scale and the awfulness.

    The nationwide figure could run into six figures.

    Do you think it's happening all over the place? I can't comment on a personal level. Obviously we have Rotherham, Rochdale, Derby and Oxford. You don't think it is isolated?

    Rotherham has for a long time been a Labour Party one party state. Time for PR in local government?

    There have been major cases in Bradford and Blackburn as well.

    The council in Rotherham decided to have an independent inquiry, but they're probably doing their best to let it be forgotten elsewhere.

    This is why parliamentary action is needed. David Cameron - how are you going to respond to this?
    Well the law is clear on these matters already. What new laws do you propose? And I should remind you that the Met and the police federation have already tried to fit up a cabinet minister, following which the Home Secretary ordered reform.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,970
    edited August 2014
    Jesus Christ! Yesterday I came on here and felt like I'd just walked into a BNP rally "Of course it's race...did you hear about the Muslim man in Manchester and what about Preston .....hunting in packs......and then there was Rochdale...was it Rochdale? ....always said Enoch was right. Listen to what he said......Picaninnys all over the place...I tell you in 15 or 20 years' time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man.....Did you hear about the little old lady who...."

    At which point I was cautioned by the moderator for pointing out that some pretty gross posters had found their way onto Mike's site and what a pity that the interesting ones had to take time out to let them vent.

    If even a TORY PM found this sort of thing unacceptable in 1968 isn't it depressing that we still have posters peddling it 45 years later.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited August 2014
    It's no defence at all. Never has been.

    It is not the Nuremberg defence. There is a big and important distinction. Nazis used the only 'following orders excuse' to cover up their own crimes. The Rotherham authorities did not commit any crimes themselves, they just looked the other way when crimes were committed.

    The Rotherham authorities may be despicable, but they don't deserve to be compared to the Nazis.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @Taffys

    "I think people should lay off the police."

    No I don't think we should at all. Every copper takes an oath to uphold the law and maintain the peace without fear or favour (the new oath is a bit softer in its language but the intent is still there, see my post last evening). They are very well remunerated as a consequence, especially senior plod. If they are not prepared to comply with that oath then they deserve every sort opprobrium that anyone cares to throw at them.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited August 2014
    @Slackbladder
    I get the idea of "culture", You however, are only now appear to be realising it.
    The miners strike, those dead Liverpool fans, and thousands of other cases where the common assumption was that "they deserved what they got", Up until a Tory minister gets accused, and then you suddenly realise that the "boys and girls in blue" are not always heroes beyond reproach.
    Yes, the affair in Rotheram stinks, but it stank in all the other cases where the cries of children and adults were ignored.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    taffys said:

    And the police ignore it!

    I think people should lay off the police.
    Imagine you are a young copper with a mortgage and a family in Rotherham during the Blair years.
    Are you really going to go against the huge tide of political correctness?
    When your career is on the line?
    When the potential perpetrators could accuse you of racism and have that accusation investigated by the 'complaints'?
    When you'd end up being a complete pariah at work?
    Maybe even lose your job and be unable to get another one because of the 'racist' mark of Cain?

    Do me a favour. The blame for this lies with the tide of multiculturalism that accompanied the Blair government's importing of a ready made immigrant client state from Pakistan in the noughties. They set the agenda for others to follow.

    The senior people in the labour party of the time is where we should be looking for the chief culprits for these desperate events.

    I'm sorry but that is rubbish.

    If the police are so scared of accusations of racism, why is it that they are still stopping black men for stop and search massively more often than white men?

    People appear to be using this simply as an excuse, so that they can offload their own culpability onto others.
  • taffys said:

    It's no defence at all. Never has been.

    It is not the Nuremberg defence. There is a big and important distinction. Nazis used the only 'following orders excuse' to cover up their own crimes. The Rotherham authorities did not commit any crimes themselves, they just looked the other way when crimes were committed.

    The Rotherham authorities may be despicable, but they don't deserve to be compared to the Nazis.

    I had in mind the hypothetical officer in your example, but no matter.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Astonishingly, this is how the report is listed on Rotherham's council website:
    Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation
    Published on Tuesday, 26th August 2014 in Council and democracy news

    Services to protect young people at risk from child sexual exploitation in Rotherham are stronger and better co-ordinated across agencies today than ever before, an independent review has found.
    via @craigawoodhouse
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Anorak said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Ed Balls adds: "it's important that people in positions of responsibility take responsibility"

    The brass neck shown there is wondrous to behold.
    Looks at small print:

    *excepting the Labour Government 1997-2010, which never did anything wrong, ever - and I'll sue anyone who says otherwise...
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779

    Astonishingly, this is how the report is listed on Rotherham's council website:

    Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation
    Published on Tuesday, 26th August 2014 in Council and democracy news

    Services to protect young people at risk from child sexual exploitation in Rotherham are stronger and better co-ordinated across agencies today than ever before, an independent review has found.
    via @craigawoodhouse

    Utterly shameless...
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited August 2014
    ''People appear to be using this simply as an excuse, so that they can offload their own culpability onto others.''

    That works both ways. You could say that Labour are desperate to offload the blame onto local minions so their political correctness agenda, and its pervasive poison, does not come under the spotlight.

  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    taffys says -- ''The Blair government encouraged and even demanded state employees subvert the rule of law to suit their own agenda. ''
    Well I am quite prepared to believe this but its just as daft saying this as saying the usual anti Cameron rubbish without some plausible specific.
    As it is he has committed a gross slander.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @SeanT
    Perhaps we should be more like Thailand? I wonder how those young ladies find their way into the brothels of Bangkok, all volunteers of course?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''As it is he has committed a gross slander.''

    Mods: If you believe this is the case please delete my post.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Show businesses for ugly people as the saying goes.
    SeanT said:

    OMG, I don't wish to make light of this hideous issue, but I'm not sure I have ever seen such a parade of human ugliness. It's like the cast of Monsters Inc.

    http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/councillors/94/emma_wallis

    http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/councillors/66/simon_tweed


    I'll stop there as I don't want to frighten younger pb-ers.
  • John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    Charles said:

    Interesting historical parallels - you lost your independence after the banks phut (Darien)...it's likely that the banks will be a major factor in NO winning this time around.

    Agreed. This is exactly why Alistair Darling has referred to Panama several times. Early on, there was a veiled reference in his quip that Alec Salmond was "a man without a plan" (get it?). That was a very clever way to play to an educated market as well as the less well educated one.

    Then there were explicit references using Panama as an example of an independent country that uses another country's currency. Actually Panama uses two currencies: one of them is pegged to the USD and one of them is the USD. A better example would be Ecuador, which uses the USD as its only currency.

    And who bailed Scotland out in the early 18th century and at what price, eh? This time not a few would ask why on earth 'rUK' should bail an independent Scotland out.

    What the SNP's often mindless followers don't realise is that if Scotland goes independent then rUK (let's call it 'WENI' for 'Wales England Northern Ireland') will also be independent. There would be absolutely nothing stopping WENI from issuing a 'WENI pound', withdrawing GBPs from circulation, and offering all holders of GBPs WENIs in exchange.

    At which point the argument that "it's Scotland's pound too" and "the GBP is partly a Scottish asset" collapses into absurdity.

    (Funny they don't apply the same argument to the permanent seat on the UN Security Council, or British nuclear weapons. Talk about having your cake and eating it.)

    Of course there would be nothing stopping an independent Scotland from telling holders of GBPs they could get poonds in exchange too.

    So what would GBP holders want? WENIPs or poonds? Answers on a postcard to your local YES campaigners.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Astonishingly, this is how the report is listed on Rotherham's council website:

    Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation
    Published on Tuesday, 26th August 2014 in Council and democracy news

    Services to protect young people at risk from child sexual exploitation in Rotherham are stronger and better co-ordinated across agencies today than ever before, an independent review has found.
    via @craigawoodhouseIt's probably accurate given the state of services over the previous 15 years. But still an astonishing way to report it. Desn't really convey a sense of contrition, does it.
  • SeanT - Don't make those sort of comparisons.

    Understood.
  • MacShame on WATO "No single individual, no constituent, no child, no family came to see me"
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p025k1dx
    He went on to bring in Thatcher's sidekick and cast a lot of sh*t around. A real slime ball.
  • SeanT said:

    taffys said:

    And the police ignore it!

    I think people should lay off the police.
    Imagine you are a young copper with a mortgage and a family in Rotherham during the Blair years.
    Are you really going to go against the huge tide of political correctness?
    When your career is on the line?
    When the potential perpetrators could accuse you of racism and have that accusation investigated by the 'complaints'?
    When you'd end up being a complete pariah at work?
    Maybe even lose your job and be unable to get another one because of the 'racist' mark of Cain?

    Do me a favour. The blame for this lies with the tide of multiculturalism that accompanied the Blair government's importing of a ready made immigrant client state from Pakistan in the noughties. They set the agenda for others to follow.

    The senior people in the labour party of the time is where we should be looking for the chief culprits for these desperate events.

    I'm sorry but that is rubbish.

    If the police are so scared of accusations of racism, why is it that they are still stopping black men for stop and search massively more often than white men?

    People appear to be using this simply as an excuse, so that they can offload their own culpability onto others.
    If you think policemen and women aren't terrified of accusations of racism you are cognitively deficient. Of course they are. They get endless diversity awareness training blah de blah, to ram it home.

    If they still stop and search more young black men on the streets it is probably because young black men, sadly, are way more likely to commit streetcrime than their white peers.

    And, as it happens, I am dating a policewoman right now - so yah boo sucks I know more about this than you.
    This is something called "offender self selection" - i.e. habitual serious offenders who break big laws also break little ones, so you catch them by catching them committing minor easy to detect crimes. They select themselves to be arrested by doing easy crimes.

    Police have had good results by staking out disabled parking bays and running checks in cars parked in them that were put there by drivers who weren't disabled. A huge percentage of the cars, north of 70% IIRC, turn out to be of police interest whether because they're untaxed or because they've been used in a crime.

    Likewise, criminals will visit other criminals in jail, so if you roadblock the prison and search the visitors you clear up more crimes still.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    BBC - "A "taboo" subject, "ignoring a politically inconvenient truth", threatening "community cohesion", "fear of being thought racist".

    The report which revealed the abuse of more than 1,400 children in Rotherham - mainly by men of Pakistani heritage - found many reasons why the shocking scale of child sexual exploitation in the South Yorkshire town remained hidden.

    Councillors and council staff in particular were criticised for "avoiding public discussion"; some through fear of being thought racist, and some through "wholesale denial" of the problem."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28951612
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Seems the answer is No !
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    Astonishingly, this is how the report is listed on Rotherham's council website:

    Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation
    Published on Tuesday, 26th August 2014 in Council and democracy news

    Services to protect young people at risk from child sexual exploitation in Rotherham are stronger and better co-ordinated across agencies today than ever before, an independent review has found.
    via @craigawoodhouse

    Newspeak: Where Everyone Matters - The Safeguarding Children Board.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054
    SeanT said:

    SeanT - Don't make those sort of comparisons.

    Understood.

    Boo! Ruining my fun.

    But yes - understood.
    Sean are you going to do a piece for the Telegraph. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this in a more detailed manner than posts on here.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited August 2014
    @SeanT
    Come on Sean? You are one of PB's expert on "ladies of negotiable virtue". Does Thailand run apprenticeships for the girls?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    For light relief - this remarkable RSPB soft sell, supposedly directed at all candidates:

    https://www.voteforbob.co.uk/

    The commitment appears to be to "take care of the natural places". Seems marginally less controversial than endorsing motherhood and apple pie.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078

    dr_spyn said:

    Noticed this on twitter.

    Nick Sutton ‏@suttonnick 9m
    .@DenisMacShane: "No single individual, no constituent, no child, no family came to see me."

    They probably couldn't open his garage doors. Or he was away in Europe.
    McShane has just been on the World at One on Radio 4. Worth a listen.
    Yes or maybe they did not trust him?

    He's just out of clink.He's part of the problem exposed here.It's not just about the abuse of children.It's a form of systemic corruption that comes with it as well.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    Astonishingly, this is how the report is listed on Rotherham's council website:

    Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation
    Published on Tuesday, 26th August 2014 in Council and democracy news

    Services to protect young people at risk from child sexual exploitation in Rotherham are stronger and better co-ordinated across agencies today than ever before, an independent review has found.
    via @craigawoodhouse

    I have tried not to get sucked into this but does this not show those that accuse the male part of the Muslim community as treating these girls as sub-human and to be used as somewhat wide of the mark?

    The sad truth is that the entire community had and in many cases has such attitudes allowing these vile perpetrators to act with minimal risk. The police officers, the social workers, the councillors, the school teachers, those who were paid (!) to provide care for these children. None of them thought these children worthy of action or even concern in most cases.

    To suggest that there was some attitude which was peculiar to the Muslim community is simply not true. If it was this would never have happened.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    BenM said:

    dr_spyn said:

    On twitter via Paul Waugh. ‏@paulwaugh 5m
    BREAKING Labour spokesman re Rotherham: "In the light of this report, it's appropriate SYorks PCC Shaun Wright shd step down"

    The entire labour council at Rotherham should resign en mass.
    I agree.

    Look if the French government can resign en masse over what is essentially a squabble over economic policy, then surely an elected body like Rotherham council should be doing so following such a disatsrous and unmitigated failure to act to protect children in their care?
    Well said.

    If these people had any honour, they would do so. Instead, all we've seen is a range of more or less pathetic excuses. Anything other than accept that they were in charge, were responsible and failed and that alone should be enough to make them resign.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    edited August 2014

    South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.

    Very wrong.

    I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....

    Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....

    Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.

    Few things more stomach churning than a politician trying to score party political points from an essentially non-party political problem.

    That the Labour Party takes it's northern strongholds for granted is not really relevant.

    There may well be some votes to "win" from this, but Farage should be careful.
    The stomachs of the multi-culti urban Left might churn. But I suspect that there is a very large chunk of the electorate who would praise him to the rafters if Farage took a stand.

    Not saying it would be the right thing to do. But I am trying to assess where this make takes politics over the next 8 months. And I think that place could be a very dark one for Labour and to a much lesser degree for the Coalition. Farage at least has clean hands on this issue - and a tone of "how the hell was this allowed to happen? We'll ensure political correctness never trumps justice" will resonate.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @SeanT
    One more time Sean. No prostitute you have used was ever forced into it while "underage"?
    I am not saying they were underage when you met them, but I was wondering how they found their way into the profession.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Pulpstar said:
    A Scottish delicacy too. Is that malcolmg in the background?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054
    Can Ed Miliband do anything to force the resignation of these Labour councillors, or at least withdraw the whip?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    For light relief - this remarkable RSPB soft sell, supposedly directed at all candidates:

    https://www.voteforbob.co.uk/

    The commitment appears to be to "take care of the natural places". Seems marginally less controversial than endorsing motherhood and apple pie.

    I've just backed Bob, I hope you will too Nick. Preserving spaces for our wildlife is important business.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited August 2014
    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT - Don't make those sort of comparisons.

    Understood.

    Boo! Ruining my fun.

    But yes - understood.
    Sean are you going to do a piece for the Telegraph. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this in a more detailed manner than posts on here.
    I've considered it, but I was in Lisbon til late last night, and now there's already huge Rotherham coverage everywhere.

    So I might wait until I've got something new and interesting to say, or I might just continue to abuse Rotherham council on here.

    On a lighter note, yesterday I made £10,000 - sold one of my thrillers to a French book club. so even amidst the endless horrors of this desolate summer of terrible news, a little ray of light shines out. I'm even richer. I hope that is of some solace to people.
    By removing capital, you're also accelerating the fall of France. A brighter ray than you first thought :)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054
    Anorak said:

    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT - Don't make those sort of comparisons.

    Understood.

    Boo! Ruining my fun.

    But yes - understood.
    Sean are you going to do a piece for the Telegraph. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this in a more detailed manner than posts on here.
    I've considered it, but I was in Lisbon til late last night, and now there's already huge Rotherham coverage everywhere.

    So I might wait until I've got something new and interesting to say, or I might just continue to abuse Rotherham council on here.

    On a lighter note, yesterday I made £10,000 - sold one of my thrillers to a French book club. so even amidst the endless horrors of this desolate summer of terrible news, a little ray of light shines out. I'm even richer. I hope that is of some solace to people.
    By removing capital, you're also accelerating the fall of France. A brighter ray than you first thought :)
    And contributing to British exports!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.

    Very wrong.

    I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....

    Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....

    Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.

    Few things more stomach churning than a politician trying to score party political points from an essentially non-party political problem.

    That the Labour Party takes it's northern strongholds for granted is not really relevant.

    There may well be some votes to "win" from this, but Farage should be careful.
    The stomachs of the multi-culti urban Left might churn. But I suspect that there is a very large chunk of the electorate who would praise him to the rafters if Farage took a stand.

    Not saying it would be the right thing to do. But I am trying to assess where this make takes politics over the next 8 months. And I think that place could be a very dark one for Labour and to a much lesser degree for the Coalition. Farage at least has clean hands on this issue - and a tone of "how the hell was this allowed to happen? We'll ensure political correctness never trumps justice" will resonate.
    All party leaders should state unequivocally that the law is and must always remain colour blind. Where a crime is alleged to have been committed, the police should investigate it fully and professionally and nothing (the type of victim, perpetrator, nationality, religion, race or who a person's friends are or anything else) should be allowed to interfere with the proper investigation of crimes or their prosecution.

    And that applies not just to the original crimes but to any crimes of cover-up, collusion, conspiracy etc.

    And the same principle needs to apply with regard to escalation and whistleblowing within public services.

    That is what equality under the law means.

    This is too important to make a party political issue.

    And, as SO rightly said yesterday evening, if that makes Labour politicians or any other politician anywhere in the country, feel uncomfortable, too bad.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    MaxPB said:

    Can Ed Miliband do anything to force the resignation of these Labour councillors, or at least withdraw the whip?

    Presumably he could start the process of expelling them from the Labour party.

    But he really needs an enforcer to say privately to them that they are doing the Labour party nothing but harm by staying and that if they do not now finally do the decent thing then he will take public action against them.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    It would seem to me, that those who bought those girls for sex, might have played a part in encouraging the continuing abuse.
    Were the girls bodies only sold to Muslim men?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Pulpstar said:

    For light relief - this remarkable RSPB soft sell, supposedly directed at all candidates:

    https://www.voteforbob.co.uk/

    The commitment appears to be to "take care of the natural places". Seems marginally less controversial than endorsing motherhood and apple pie.

    I've just backed Bob, I hope you will too Nick. Preserving spaces for our wildlife is important business.
    It might have more resonance if the RSPB would object to fecking wind turbines, rather than blithely say they pose no threat. A report for the Spanish Ornithological Society estimated that the 18,000 wind turbines in Spain could be killing millions of birds and bats each year.

    Including migrant birds. Our migrant birds, on their way here...to be whacked by RSPB-endorsed turbines. Try taking care of the natural places here by preventing these fauna-killing machines spreading over the landscape, RSPB.

    That is the end of MY political broadcast.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,452
    MaxPB said:

    Can Ed Miliband do anything to force the resignation of these Labour councillors, or at least withdraw the whip?

    No, he's too busy ignoring the fact that boys can be sexually abused, men can suffer domestic violence, and being absolutely furious that the government isn't backing Hamas.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    edited August 2014
    Cyclefree said:

    BenM said:

    dr_spyn said:

    On twitter via Paul Waugh. ‏@paulwaugh 5m
    BREAKING Labour spokesman re Rotherham: "In the light of this report, it's appropriate SYorks PCC Shaun Wright shd step down"

    The entire labour council at Rotherham should resign en mass.
    I agree.

    Look if the French government can resign en masse over what is essentially a squabble over economic policy, then surely an elected body like Rotherham council should be doing so following such a disatsrous and unmitigated failure to act to protect children in their care?
    Well said.

    If these people had any honour, they would do so. Instead, all we've seen is a range of more or less pathetic excuses. Anything other than accept that they were in charge, were responsible and failed and that alone should be enough to make them resign.

    I am not saying I disagree that those who had political responsibility during times of such catastrophic failure should not resign but surely that isn't what is really going to be make a difference.

    Everyone of the care home administrators and allocated social workers should be facing criminal investigation for the neglect of minors in their care. Where knowledge or criminal neglect can be shown they should be prosecuted. Only then will the next generation appreciate that this is something that cannot be tolerated.

    At the moment it is like the banks. No one is being held to account so the probability of a repeat of the conduct is 100%.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Can Ed Miliband do anything to force the resignation of these Labour councillors, or at least withdraw the whip?

    Presumably he could start the process of expelling them from the Labour party.

    But he really needs an enforcer to say privately to them that they are doing the Labour party nothing but harm by staying and that if they do not now finally do the decent thing then he will take public action against them.

    Does Ed have any boot boys now that Tom Watson and Charlie Whelan have been thrown out of the inner circle. Everything I hear about Ed Miliband's inner circle leads me to believe it is too weak to do anything meaningful about this.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Smarmeron said:

    It would seem to me, that those who bought those girls for sex, might have played a part in encouraging the continuing abuse.
    Were the girls bodies only sold to Muslim men?

    You seem to be in a very, very, very small minority of people in denial over this. It's the very same type of denial that led to this issue in the first place, according to the report.

    Maybe you should reflect on that for a bit.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Cyclefree said:

    South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.

    Very wrong.

    I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....

    Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....

    Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.

    Few things more stomach churning than a politician trying to score party political points from an essentially non-party political problem.

    That the Labour Party takes it's northern strongholds for granted is not really relevant.

    There may well be some votes to "win" from this, but Farage should be careful.
    The stomachs of the multi-culti urban Left might churn. But I suspect that there is a very large chunk of the electorate who would praise him to the rafters if Farage took a stand.

    Not saying it would be the right thing to do. But I am trying to assess where this make takes politics over the next 8 months. And I think that place could be a very dark one for Labour and to a much lesser degree for the Coalition. Farage at least has clean hands on this issue - and a tone of "how the hell was this allowed to happen? We'll ensure political correctness never trumps justice" will resonate.
    All party leaders should state unequivocally that the law is and must always remain colour blind. Where a crime is alleged to have been committed, the police should investigate it fully and professionally and nothing (the type of victim, perpetrator, nationality, religion, race or who a person's friends are or anything else) should be allowed to interfere with the proper investigation of crimes or their prosecution.

    And that applies not just to the original crimes but to any crimes of cover-up, collusion, conspiracy etc.

    And the same principle needs to apply with regard to escalation and whistleblowing within public services.

    That is what equality under the law means.

    This is too important to make a party political issue.

    And, as SO rightly said yesterday evening, if that makes Labour politicians or any other politician anywhere in the country, feel uncomfortable, too bad.

    Heartily endorse that, but to many it will probably just look like too little, too late... It will feed into the anti-politics mood.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited August 2014
    Anorak said:

    Smarmeron said:

    It would seem to me, that those who bought those girls for sex, might have played a part in encouraging the continuing abuse.
    Were the girls bodies only sold to Muslim men?

    You seem to be in a very, very, very small minority of people in denial over this. It's the very same type of denial that led to this issue in the first place, according to the report.

    Maybe you should reflect on that for a bit.
    It's only a matter of time before he claims that the perpetrators of these foul and indefensible acts, were victims too.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Good God Smarmeron, you are making excuses for evil.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    BenM said:

    dr_spyn said:

    On twitter via Paul Waugh. ‏@paulwaugh 5m
    BREAKING Labour spokesman re Rotherham: "In the light of this report, it's appropriate SYorks PCC Shaun Wright shd step down"

    The entire labour council at Rotherham should resign en mass.
    I agree.

    Look if the French government can resign en masse over what is essentially a squabble over economic policy, then surely an elected body like Rotherham council should be doing so following such a disatsrous and unmitigated failure to act to protect children in their care?
    Well said.

    If these people had any honour, they would do so. Instead, all we've seen is a range of more or less pathetic excuses. Anything other than accept that they were in charge, were responsible and failed and that alone should be enough to make them resign.

    I am not saying I disagree that those who had political responsibility during times of such catastrophic failure should not resign but surely that isn't what is really going to be make a difference.

    Everyone of the care home administrators and allocated social workers should be facing criminal investigation for the neglect of minors in their care. Where knowledge or criminal neglect can be shown they should be prosecuted. Only then will the next generation appreciate that this is something that cannot be tolerated.

    At the moment it is like the banks. No one is being held to account so the probability of a repeat of the conduct is 100%.
    Agreed. Those who can be prosecuted should be. But for people at the top to take responsibility sends out an important signal. So does people at the top not taking responsibility.

    Nothing is more corrosive of the sort of proper culture which should exist in an organisation than a sense that only the juniors get blamed and the people at the top get away with it. Tone is set from the top. Start there, work down and have a wholesale clearing out of those who failed in their jobs. And reward those who did raise concerns and were ignored. Put them in charge.

    Not only do we not take the right action against the wrongdoers. But we also mistreat those who did or tried to do the right thing. Bad people drive good people out of an organisation. That needs to be reversed. If not, it is no surprise that the next time good people will keep their heads down.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Anorak
    I am not the one in denial, I am asking questions that are not getting answered, but instead I get accused of defending something I have never attempted to defend.
    On PB, morality quite often only fits where it touches.

    Have fun with your hysterical rantings, and don't look too deeply in case reality should intrude.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Pulpstar said:

    For light relief - this remarkable RSPB soft sell, supposedly directed at all candidates:

    https://www.voteforbob.co.uk/

    The commitment appears to be to "take care of the natural places". Seems marginally less controversial than endorsing motherhood and apple pie.

    I've just backed Bob, I hope you will too Nick. Preserving spaces for our wildlife is important business.
    I have. But I've also suggested they could have been a bi more demanding.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Rain stops play in Cardiff.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    BenM said:

    dr_spyn said:

    On twitter via Paul Waugh. ‏@paulwaugh 5m
    BREAKING Labour spokesman re Rotherham: "In the light of this report, it's appropriate SYorks PCC Shaun Wright shd step down"

    The entire labour council at Rotherham should resign en mass.
    I agree.

    Look if the French government can resign en masse over what is essentially a squabble over economic policy, then surely an elected body like Rotherham council should be doing so following such a disatsrous and unmitigated failure to act to protect children in their care?
    Well said.

    If these people had any honour, they would do so. Instead, all we've seen is a range of more or less pathetic excuses. Anything other than accept that they were in charge, were responsible and failed and that alone should be enough to make them resign.

    I am not saying I disagree that those who had political responsibility during times of such catastrophic failure should not resign but surely that isn't what is really going to be make a difference.

    Everyone of the care home administrators and allocated social workers should be facing criminal investigation for the neglect of minors in their care. Where knowledge or criminal neglect can be shown they should be prosecuted. Only then will the next generation appreciate that this is something that cannot be tolerated.

    At the moment it is like the banks. No one is being held to account so the probability of a repeat of the conduct is 100%.
    A resignation would be a start. The leak of minutes from Rotherham child protection meetings included the local police liason giving the police's estimate of the current** number of victims in South Yorkshire at the time at 300. So how the people involved can say they didn't know with a straight face is a mystery.

    (** there's a lot of churn as these girls get targeted at around 12-14 and mostly break away when they get a few years older and more capable of looking after themselves so over say 10 years the total will be 2-3 times whatever the number is at any one point.)


  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    SeanT said:

    MaxPB said:

    Can Ed Miliband do anything to force the resignation of these Labour councillors, or at least withdraw the whip?

    No, he's too busy ignoring the fact that boys can be sexually abused, men can suffer domestic violence, and being absolutely furious that the government isn't backing Hamas.
    Twitter is full of rumours that the cover-up and corruption in Rotherham extends beyond the local Labour party, hence the lack of individual resignations. If one goes, they will all have to go - and many more besides.

    Of course this is Twitter so cav empt.

    And now I must drive to Dorsetshire, to see my beloved daughter.

    Avanti.
    Let them all go then. If a wholesale clear out is needed, the sooner the better.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Smarmeron said:

    @Anorak
    I am not the one in denial, I am asking questions that are not getting answered, but instead I get accused of defending something I have never attempted to defend.
    On PB, morality quite often only fits where it touches.

    Have fun with your hysterical rantings, and don't look too deeply in case reality should intrude.

    You're right to say that anyone who abused these girls is also guilty of a crime. So if these gangs trafficked them to white men in other towns then we should certainly not be shy of saying so and prosecuting them also.

    Does the report say this? Are the police now investigating who else abused these girls? I hope so. I fear, though, it may well be very difficult to get the evidence needed but the attempt should certainly be made.

  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited August 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    I am not the one in denial, I am asking questions that are not getting answered

    And yet all your 'questions' seem to be trying to spread the blame outside the community to which all the perpetrators belonged.
    Smarmeron said:

    Have fun with your hysterical rantings, and don't look too deeply in case reality should intrude.

    You can add 'lack of self-awareness' to 'denial'.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    taffys said:

    And the police ignore it!

    I think people should lay off the police.
    Imagine you are a young copper with a mortgage and a family in Rotherham during the Blair years.
    Are you really going to go against the huge tide of political correctness?
    When your career is on the line?
    When the potential perpetrators could accuse you of racism and have that accusation investigated by the 'complaints'?
    When you'd end up being a complete pariah at work?
    Maybe even lose your job and be unable to get another one because of the 'racist' mark of Cain?

    taffys said:

    And the police ignore it!

    I think people should lay off the police.
    Imagine you are a young copper with a mortgage and a family in Rotherham during the Blair years.
    Are you really going to go against the huge tide of political correctness?
    When your career is on the line?
    When the potential perpetrators could accuse you of racism and have that accusation investigated by the 'complaints'?
    When you'd end up being a complete pariah at work?
    Maybe even lose your job and be unable to get another one because of the 'racist' mark of Cain?

    Do me a favour. The blame for this lies with the tide of multiculturalism that accompanied the Blair government's importing of a ready made immigrant client state from Pakistan in the noughties. They set the agenda for others to follow.

    The senior people in the labour party of the time is where we should be looking for the chief culprits for these desperate events.

    I'm sorry but that is rubbish.

    If the police are so scared of accusations of racism, why is it that they are still stopping black men for stop and search massively more often than white men?

    People appear to be using this simply as an excuse, so that they can offload their own culpability onto others.
    I think there's not much doubt that *some* senior police officers prioritise "good community relations" over law enforcement. Councilllor Peter Golds has repeatedly stated how often the police will treat violation of electoral law in Tower Hamlets as being a "cultural matter." West Midlands Police wanted to prosecute Channel 4 for incitement to racial hatred for reporting on the sermons given in some mosques in Birmingham. Despite FGM being unlawful for years, I don't think there's ever been a successful prosecution for it etc.



  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,815
    The border of our NATO ally Turkey still totally open for Jihadis to enter Syria:

    EU countries have for weeks been putting pressure on Turkey to do more to seal its border. Because Ankara has wanted to oust President Bashar al-Assad from control in Syria, Turkey has kept its border open to jihadists who oppose him, including Isis fighters, and this has allowed the area to become a safe haven over the past three years. While the Turks now say that Isis is no longer welcome, Ankara has not sent in troops in large numbers to patrol the border.

    Meanwhile, senior UK politicians called for greater pressure to be exerted on Turkey via the European Union and Nato – of which Turkey is a member. Former Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell said that Turkey had a "vital role to play in preventing the free passage of jihadists travelling to … join Islamic State".http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/us-air-strikes-isis-commanders-syria-considered

    Notice from that article none of the senior politicians urging Turkey to act are actually Government spokespeople.

    And further stories (from an admittedly unsubstantiated source) that they are being trained on a US base in Turkey: http://aydinlikdaily.com/Detail/ISIS-Terrorists-Trained-In-A-US-Base-In-Turkey/3640#.U_3l2KPLKub

    This may or may not be true, but it certainly seems likely they are receiving training in Turkey -it's not like they can just go into the field with no combat experience.

    ISIS
    -founded and funded by our ally Saudi Arabia
    -armed by our ally the US (if not directly, at least through inevitable interchange of islamist groupings)
    -welcomed into the field (and probably trained) by our ally and future EU partner Turkey
    -groomed and recruited in our own Mosques
    And aparently there's nothing we can do about them?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    DavidL said:

    Astonishingly, this is how the report is listed on Rotherham's council website:

    Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation
    Published on Tuesday, 26th August 2014 in Council and democracy news

    Services to protect young people at risk from child sexual exploitation in Rotherham are stronger and better co-ordinated across agencies today than ever before, an independent review has found.
    via @craigawoodhouse
    I have tried not to get sucked into this but does this not show those that accuse the male part of the Muslim community as treating these girls as sub-human and to be used as somewhat wide of the mark?

    The sad truth is that the entire community had and in many cases has such attitudes allowing these vile perpetrators to act with minimal risk. The police officers, the social workers, the councillors, the school teachers, those who were paid (!) to provide care for these children. None of them thought these children worthy of action or even concern in most cases.

    To suggest that there was some attitude which was peculiar to the Muslim community is simply not true. If it was this would never have happened.


    I think there's a strange combination of old-fashioned misogyny ("the girls are sluts, who were asking for it") and modern political correctness ("it's racist to suggest that Pakistani men are disproportionately involved.")

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    AndyJS said:
    Its where she got her inspiration for the dirty bed
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Roger said:

    Jesus Christ! Yesterday I came on here and felt like I'd just walked into a BNP rally "Of course it's race...did you hear about the Muslim man in Manchester and what about Preston .....hunting in packs......and then there was Rochdale...was it Rochdale? ....always said Enoch was right. Listen to what he said......Picaninnys all over the place...I tell you in 15 or 20 years' time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man.....Did you hear about the little old lady who...."

    At which point I was cautioned by the moderator for pointing out that some pretty gross posters had found their way onto Mike's site and what a pity that the interesting ones had to take time out to let them vent.

    If even a TORY PM found this sort of thing unacceptable in 1968 isn't it depressing that we still have posters peddling it 45 years later.

    No-one ever mentioned "picanninys" until you did. You're making up what conservatives say so you can divert the attention away from these crimes. It's this constant cry of "racist!" that allowed these monsters to carry out the crimes with impunity for years and years and even after this all comes out in the report, you do more of it the same.

    But it's not surprising your reaction isn't outrage about people excusing child molesters. Your comments on Roman Polanski show you've excused child molesters yourself in the past.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Anorak
    You are arguing that child abuse and exploitation is mainly a "Muslim" problem, and that the problem is entirely "cultural".
    You could make that assumption as long as you only focus on single examples that fit with your parameters, and ignore all the other cases.
    I lack "self awareness"?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    I've said that UKIP has good chanches of picking up seats on the coast from the Scottish border to Lands End, the area around The Wash and the Thames estuary is particular fertile ground for them.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    It seems the middle class labour supporters here have adopted socialism ideals only to better parasite the working class, they don't seem to have even the empathy of the bug bear mill owner.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    edited August 2014
    Socrates said:

    Roger said:

    Jesus Christ! Yesterday I came on here and felt like I'd just walked into a BNP rally "Of course it's race...did you hear about the Muslim man in Manchester and what about Preston .....hunting in packs......and then there was Rochdale...was it Rochdale? ....always said Enoch was right. Listen to what he said......Picaninnys all over the place...I tell you in 15 or 20 years' time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man.....Did you hear about the little old lady who...."

    At which point I was cautioned by the moderator for pointing out that some pretty gross posters had found their way onto Mike's site and what a pity that the interesting ones had to take time out to let them vent.

    If even a TORY PM found this sort of thing unacceptable in 1968 isn't it depressing that we still have posters peddling it 45 years later.

    . It's this constant cry of "racist!" that allowed these monsters to carry out the crimes with impunity for years and years...

    The report doesn't say that was the case... It does say that some individuals felt they were pressured to downplay the ethnicity of the offenders when dealing with the issue... It also postulates a number of other reasons (introduction to chapter 13) why the problem was not dealt with, for example professional jealousies between departments and a reluctance to divert resources from other areas of child protection... The barriers put in the way of the Risky Business team and the Home Office researcher were not, according to the report, a "constant cry of racist"...

    The events in Rotherham need a robust and effective response against the criminality involved and not a misrepresentation of yesterday's report.


  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Socrates said:

    South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.

    Very wrong.

    I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....

    Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....

    Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.

    'an essentially non-party political problem.'
    .
    Is it though? We're talking directly about the attitudes and actions of elected officials of one party in particular.

    How is that not a party political issue?
    We are? I thought we were talking about the systematic targeting of young white, socially disadvantaged girls by Pakistani men?

    It is clear that there were failings in the duty of care from Social Services and the Police, but is it clear that the reason behind this is directly linked to the Labour Party and it's disregard of the core WWC vote?
    The report clearly alleges that councillors of Pakistani origin tried to interfere with the investigation. All the councillors of Pakistani origin on Rotherham council in recent years have been Labour politicians.
    Please quote the paragraph of the report that states this.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Guardian.

    “Jahangir Akhtar, the former deputy leader of the council, is accused in the report of naivety and potentially "ignoring a politically inconvenient truth" by insisting there was not a deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls. Police told the inquiry that some influential Pakistani councillors in Rotherham acted as barriers to communication on grooming issues.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/26/rotherham-sexual-abuse-children
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807

    Guardian.

    “Jahangir Akhtar, the former deputy leader of the council, is accused in the report of naivety and potentially "ignoring a politically inconvenient truth" by insisting there was not a deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls. Police told the inquiry that some influential Pakistani councillors in Rotherham acted as barriers to communication on grooming issues.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/26/rotherham-sexual-abuse-children

    So no suggestion that Pakistani councillor tried to interfere with the investigation then as some have said.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    John_N said:

    Socrates said:

    Ssshhhh, someone'll be along soon to say that they were not Russian troops but EU troops masquerading as Russian troops who were about to invade Crimea to shoot down Putin's plane as it overflew Syria. There would probably be chemical weapons in there somewhere as well, along with an escort of fictitious Ukrainian fighter planes.

    World-weary, are you, Soccers?

    Did you know that lads from the SBS covertly conducted operations on the Swedish coast in the 1980s and 1990s, leaving "evidence" for the Swedes that they were in fact the Russians?

    Just wondered.
    did they leave a submarine there too?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-363
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,000
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only thing wrong with Mike's proposition is that it will be YES and so you just lose all your money exactly the same as if you had backed NO at 1-6. Only consolation is that you will have had fun thinking you were going to win more money but same end result.

    A smart bettor would have hopefully be in a situation where they win regardless of the outcome, taking advantage of changing prices to hedge bets one way or the other.

    Must say, you seem to be in a good mood today.. you've posted three times and not had a go at anyone... ;-)
    LOL, I am indeed in a sunny mood, all is well
    Then don't read this then:


    When will the penny drop for Alex Salmond?

    Monday’s TV debate was no triumph for the SNP leader – it was his biggest deceit. He may have got cheap cheers from the studio audience but his currency plans, whether A or B, don’t add up


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11056857/When-will-the-penny-drop-for-Alex-Salmond.html
    LOL, why would some lies in the Telegraph upset me. He was very clear he has a plan A and at least 3 Plan B's, even the most stupid unionist should be able to take that in.
    The doom mongers can say it is all very scary but as almost 200 other countries manage to have a currency I am pretty sure we will manage to have one as well.
    Only fools will be concerned.
    No one is saying you wouldn't be able to have a currency, the argument is (should be) about the consequences of each choice.
    Rob, that would be fine but as we see the NO nutters do not want to discuss anything , they just want to say scary, scary , you will not be allowed , etc.
    They are scared to discuss anything in detail and when they do they look stupid.
    Actually, Darling was quite clear about some of the downsides to being in a Panama-like situation, where you don't have a central bank (crucial for a big financial industry), and can't set your own interest rates. These are all facts, and not some scare story designed to frighten the voters.
    He was adamant that would mean being unable to run a budget deficit - and is wrong about that. I wonder how much factual reaearch he has actually done (or had done for him)?
This discussion has been closed.