South Yorkshire PCC (who was Rotherham cabinet member for children) is refusing to step down but it looks Labour is ready to drop him. Chris Bryant asked him to resign.
On twitter via Paul Waugh. @paulwaugh 5m BREAKING Labour spokesman re Rotherham: "In the light of this report, it's appropriate SYorks PCC Shaun Wright shd step down"
The entire labour council at Rotherham should resign en mass.
I agree.
Look if the French government can resign en masse over what is essentially a squabble over economic policy, then surely an elected body like Rotherham council should be doing so following such a disatsrous and unmitigated failure to act to protect children in their care?
What happens to the Labour Party now? I don't accept that the party as a whole is blaze or indifferent about these matters. It's full of do gooders who will be absolutely appalled by what has happened. The ending of one party states in local government in some of their heartlands might be the best thing for them.
South Yorkshire PCC (who was Rotherham cabinet member for children) is refusing to step down but it looks Labour is ready to drop him. Chris Bryant asked him to resign.
I assume his position is the same as an MP in that he can't be forced to stand down. Only he can make the decision. Is that correct?
If say two families in an area caused say 30% of the crime in the area, the defence by Smarmeron and Michael White would be that 70% was caused by all the many other families. I doubt if the magistrate would be sympathetic.
@CD13 I have no problem facing "facts", the problem here on PB, is that there is only one "fact" that appears to be relevant, with the others conveniently ignored.
South Yorkshire PCC (who was Rotherham cabinet member for children) is refusing to step down but it looks Labour is ready to drop him. Chris Bryant asked him to resign.
I assume his position is the same as an MP in that he can't be forced to stand down. Only he can make the decision. Is that correct?
I guess so. He declared he didn't know anything and he added ""I believe I am the most appropriate person to hold this office at this current time"
South Yorkshire PCC (who was Rotherham cabinet member for children) is refusing to step down but it looks Labour is ready to drop him. Chris Bryant asked him to resign.
I assume his position is the same as an MP in that he can't be forced to stand down. Only he can make the decision. Is that correct?
I guess so. He declared he didn't know anything and he added ""I believe I am the most appropriate person to hold this office at this current time"
Maybe he should resign, put himself up for re-election, and see if the voters agree with him.
As someone who grew up living ten miles away (and do again) and has a similar background to perpetrators in Rotherham time for me add my tuppence worth.
I had no idea this was going on, the first time I became aware of it was when Nick Griffin raised it. My instinct was it can't be true if he says it. I might be one or two people and he's smearing just as he did when he said most Muslims support terrorism and cited Abu Hamza and Anjem Choudry.
It is the point Andrew Norfolk of the Times made as well.
The most disturbing thing is for me most of the perpetrators are people who were born and raised here, it might have made me feel better on one level if they had been immigrants.
These people's parents and grandparents who came over here from Pakistan are and would be ashamed of their actions, they wanted their kids to be Doctors, solicitors and accountants not child abusers.
I think the failure is a lack of integration.
I grew up in a very middle class place and was the only none white pupil at my school house/year for the most part.
I don't think it a clash of civilisations more down to segregation of the different groups and we must learn to integrate better.
Sorry to have waffled on but I hope it makes sense.
I was talking to a very left wing former trade unionist recently about politics in South Wales. He was talking a lot about the miners' strike and how Labour handled it. As he put it 'what you've got to remember is that a lot of councillors in the Valleys aren't very bright.'
Talk of localism is very popular at the moment but what sort of services are we likely to get in deprived areas where the jobs have gone, the aspirational have left and the council is a one party state.
Julia Hartley-Brewer @JuliaHB1 27s About to speak @LBC to Shadow Home Sec Yvette Cooper about Rotherham sex abuse scandal and why South Yorks PCC Shaun Wright should resign.
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
In Rotherham at least, that would have nigh on been the case.
My work colleague reckons that Rotherham people of Pakistani heritage all live in close proximity to on another "on a few streets".
Anecdotally it fits, because the areas that come under Rotherham council control that I head through regularly are overwhelmingly white (Wales parish) - also the "Rotherham council" area extends a fair way out of Rotherham.
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
I don't think that's the view of most people here at all.
1. They are primarily Donbass people. 2. Ukrainian elections free and fair? Hahahaha. Not even included the votes of the Donbass region they purport to represent. 3. Why change your name? Must always understand the motivations of those involved in provoking these crises. 4. They aren't, as even someone with a cursory knowledge of the region knows. 5. I don't think anyone disputes the Crimea referendum was a reflection of the will of the people. I don't see any rebels in Crimea.
1. There's no such thing as a Donbass ethnic group. You just make up laughable new nations to justify your support for Russian imperialism. 2. Ukrainian elections were indeed free and fair: http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/119078?download=true Yes, it was sad that the people of Donetsk didn't get their votes included. Sadly, the place has been plunged into a warzone, but even if everyone in the region unanimously voted against Poroshenko, he still would have won. 3. Victoria Nuland never changed her name. Her father did. I guess you think her credibility is tarnished by her Jewish ancestral guilt? 4. The people of eastern Ukraine are indeed majority Ukrainian:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine#mediaviewer/File:Ethnicukrainian2001.PNG This is unchanged from 1914: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Ethnic-Ukrainians.jpg 5. Yeah, that's why the Russian-appointed PM of Crimea received 4% in the previous free and fair election. There wasn't even an option in the Crimean referendum on the status quo. The most recent opinion poll carried out prior to the Russian military occupation of the presence, after which pro-Ukrainian protesters were beaten up on the streets, showed that 53% wanted autonomy in Ukraine, with just 29% wanting secession to join Russia. There were more voters in Sevastopol than residents!
So to prove your point you have linked to Wikipedia with data that shows the Donbass and Crimea are overwhelmingly ethnically and culturally Russian. Well done.
Apologies if I've misread you, but the consensus isn't that "if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved."
The consensus is that there is probably a disproportion, and this was probably caused by "racial sensitivity" enforcing the feeling of the perpetrators that they could get away with it and the cultural feeling that some of the girls were asking for it.
The Rotherham case is just enormous. Shattering. It's so big it's hard to comprehend.
One thousand four hundred girls raped and abused. That would be shocking if it was a UK-wide stat. But it is from just one northern town. And presumably is not unique.
This has the potential to change our political landscape, when people grasp the scale and the awfulness.
The nationwide figure could run into six figures.
Do you think it's happening all over the place? I can't comment on a personal level. Obviously we have Rotherham, Rochdale, Derby and Oxford. You don't think it is isolated?
Rotherham has for a long time been a Labour Party one party state. Time for PR in local government?
I think so Frank.One Party States invariably end in tears.
Dear Dear, Tories call in favours as their troughers rush to try and scare the public. I am sure people will say , oh the millionaires that pay slave wages are all against us having democracy , that has made me change my mind I better vote NO. The world does not have a SAY and 133 troughers does not a NO vote make.
Next you will be asking who will bail out the Scottish Banks that you told me would all be in England and be English banks. Unionists seem very confused.
The Rotherham case is just enormous. Shattering. It's so big it's hard to comprehend.
One thousand four hundred girls raped and abused. That would be shocking if it was a UK-wide stat. But it is from just one northern town. And presumably is not unique.
This has the potential to change our political landscape, when people grasp the scale and the awfulness.
The nationwide figure could run into six figures.
Do you think it's happening all over the place? I can't comment on a personal level. Obviously we have Rotherham, Rochdale, Derby and Oxford. You don't think it is isolated?
Rotherham has for a long time been a Labour Party one party state. Time for PR in local government?
There have been major cases in Bradford and Blackburn as well.
The council in Rotherham decided to have an independent inquiry, but they're probably doing their best to let it be forgotten elsewhere.
This is why parliamentary action is needed. David Cameron - how are you going to respond to this?
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
I don't think that's the view of most people here at all.
I think it's a matter of clear fact that a large proportion of child abuse in Rotherham was indeed committed by Muslims, as the report shows,
On twitter via Paul Waugh. @paulwaugh 5m BREAKING Labour spokesman re Rotherham: "In the light of this report, it's appropriate SYorks PCC Shaun Wright shd step down"
The entire labour council at Rotherham should resign en mass.
I agree.
Look if the French government can resign en masse over what is essentially a squabble over economic policy, then surely an elected body like Rotherham council should be doing so following such a disatsrous and unmitigated failure to act to protect children in their care?
Mr. M, that can't happen. If it were allowed to it would set a precedent that people in charge actually taking responsibility for what goes on. It would be the end of civilisation as we know it. For goodness sake a senior police officer/council official is paid a six figure sum because he/she is worth it, not because he/she is responsible for anything.
@Sean_F Read the posts from today, and earlier on yesterday, and it is not the impression given. I am not defending the Rotherham criminals, I am just pointing out that child abuse does not need an "ethnic" component, in the same way that the sale of illegal drugs is not a "black" issue.
As someone who grew up living ten miles away (and do again) and has a similar background to perpetrators in Rotherham time for me add my tuppence worth.
I had no idea this was going on, the first time I became aware of it was when Nick Griffin raised it. My instinct was it can't be true if he says it. I might be one or two people and he's smearing just as he did when he said most Muslims support terrorism and cited Abu Hamza and Anjem Choudry.
It is the point Andrew Norfolk of the Times made as well.
The most disturbing thing is for me most of the perpetrators are people who were born and raised here, it might have made me feel better on one level if they had been immigrants.
These people's parents and grandparents who came over here from Pakistan are and would be ashamed of their actions, they wanted their kids to be Doctors, solicitors and accountants not child abusers.
I think the failure is a lack of integration.
I grew up in a very middle class place and was the only none white pupil at my school house/year for the most part.
I don't think it a clash of civilisations more down to segregation of the different groups and we must learn to integrate better.
Sorry to have waffled on but I hope it makes sense.
Some very good comments there TSE. Regarding integration, I'm under the impression that the very large scale immigration over recent decades have brought their own problems. The indigenous population could not assimilate such large numbers easily and therefore groups segregated into their own areas and continued practising the cultural behaviours they were used to, but in a western environment. This exposed the younger elements to 'decadent' western values whilst living to the 'old country' mores. This lead to friction and non acceptance of the host country ways of life.
The Rotherham case is just enormous. Shattering. It's so big it's hard to comprehend.
One thousand four hundred girls raped and abused. That would be shocking if it was a UK-wide stat. But it is from just one northern town. And presumably is not unique.
This has the potential to change our political landscape, when people grasp the scale and the awfulness.
The nationwide figure could run into six figures.
Do you think it's happening all over the place? I can't comment on a personal level. Obviously we have Rotherham, Rochdale, Derby and Oxford. You don't think it is isolated?
Rotherham has for a long time been a Labour Party one party state. Time for PR in local government?
I remember a friend of mine, about seven or eight years ago - long before any of the scandals erupted - claiming that Muslim street-grooming and child abuse was happening in... Worcester.
He said he'd witnessed it, and heard people speak of it.
For my sins, I ignored him. But now I guess he was probably right.
And this is a town that hasn't even been mentioned by anyone. A rough guess is that this is, therefore, a nationwide phenomenon.
First time I've been able to agree with SeanT, history has been made.
There have been rumours circulating round Edinburgh for many years. Suspicious break in at Lothian and Borders Police HQ with the farcical cover up. Just to give a flavour:
Newish reports suggest that other well known and respected legal and political types were involved not just in Edinburgh, but also in London. It looks like the proverbial is just about to hit the rotating air conditioning.
@TheWatcher Because, I believe that those who took advantage of those children were not just the ones that groomed them, but also those that paid the groomers/pimps. The crime was and still is terrible, and those that through neglect, greed or sexual perversion should be treated for what they are. Here on PB, the discussion is about smearing a group, and the Labour party, while ignoring all the other cases that don't fit your political agenda. North Wales, Glencora, Newcastle, The Catholic church, and possibly even the top of our political system. These can be ignored because it does not fit your agenda. Tell me all about smears Watcher, you seem to have a degree of expertise on the subject.
Issues like Savile, child abuse in the Catholic Church, PIE, etc. have certainly been discussed here (libel laws permitting).
The motivations of the perpetrators of this particular form of child abuse, and the reasons why people in authority turned a blind eye/ covered up for it, are certainly topics that need to be discussed.
It's strange that when we were discussing Saville and other media types, the left-wingers on here didn't respond with "we must remember that the vast majority of child abuse is carried out by non-TV celebrities..."
South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.
Very wrong.
I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....
Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....
Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.
The other baffling part of the Rotherham tragedy is the role of the police. But hen you remember this was the force that gave us Orgreave and Hillsborough and never faced serious accountability, so perhaps not a surprise.
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
I don't think that's the view of most people here at all.
Of course it isn't, SeanF.
Rotherham is no more a Muslim problem than the Savile case is a disc jockey problem, even though Muslims and disc jockeys have been 'overrepresented' in recent scandals.
It is a problem of law and order, of care, of policing, of parenting, and of course culture.
@Sean_F Read the posts from today, and earlier on yesterday, and it is not the impression given. I am not defending the Rotherham criminals, I am just pointing out that child abuse does not need an "ethnic" component, in the same way that the sale of illegal drugs is not a "black" issue.
However we do not normally see child abusers hunting in packs.
The Rotherham case is just enormous. Shattering. It's so big it's hard to comprehend.
One thousand four hundred girls raped and abused. That would be shocking if it was a UK-wide stat. But it is from just one northern town. And presumably is not unique.
This has the potential to change our political landscape, when people grasp the scale and the awfulness.
I still find it staggering people on here thought I had an "obsession" when I was trying to highlight the scale of abuse being ignored by the mainstream media.
I seem to remember one poster jeeringly commenting about "Dem Muslamics."
Let's remember that the phrase was mocking a white working class protester complaining about... "Muslamic sex gangs":
An interesting comment after one article on the topic:
Ask any sex worker we have the biggest problems with Pakistani men , most escorts here in London specify no Pakistani men on their profile but then sex work isn't governed by the politically correct rules of the establishment.Now I also specify no Pakistani men on my profile after a few scary incidents,this is a problem all around UK .THis needs to be addressed it is happening .
After being asked further:
Yes, they always try and fiddle you out of money and get aggressive ,they always hassle to not wear a condom and often try and slip it off in the middle of Sex hoping you won't notice,they don't wash or pay any attention to their personal hygiene,and just generally treat you like a piece of dirt,I live next to Tower Hamlets and city of London so I either get requests from city workers or the Pakistani community and trust me I would rather a kind gentlemanly clean respectful guy than a dirty disrespectful aggressive pig and the young ones are the worst they just literally throw their money at you or on the floor,I'm lucky though I'm not a street sex worker and I'm very picky and screen my clients well but I'm part of a sex worker warning scheme that sends out alerts to sex workers of abusive and dangerous incidents and 95 percent of those are from the Pakistani community this is an example of one day of reports .
WOMAN RAPED-MANCHESTER-PR6632 4/8/14@8pm,Fairfield St,woman app by man in clean,silver Volkswagen,Passat model.Man desc;Asian,5'6,med build,25-29,black hair short back&sides,shaven body all over,blue Reebok top,black Nike bottoms. Oral agreed. Drove to car park,Store St,asked do business back of car,strangled, pinned down&raped her.After,said"Get the fuck out",pushing out &speeding off*Dont share alert.As reported to NUM,doesnt reflect UKNSWPs views
"I believe I am the most appropriate person to hold this office at this current time"
PCC Shaun Wright was the councillor in charge of children's services at Rotherham Council from 2005 to 2010. If the man in charge was oblivious to the scale of child abuse in his area when it was at its height, why on earth would he think he’s the ‘most appropriate’ person now to take charge?
The 64k dollar question is can the PCC be arrested or prosecuted by his own police?
I'm sure he could - presumably a chief constable could as well. But has he committed a crime? One thing is for sure I don't want to see taxpayers forking out hundreds of thousands of pounds in compensation a la Shoesmith.
What we appear to be agreeing is that Enoch Powell was right. Shock horror! 'But he's a wacist!'
And if you read what he actually said in his Rivers of Blood speech - he was. And a quiet decent man - and no racist. The left delibeately misinterpreted and misportrayed him. For shame.
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
I don't think that's the view of most people here at all.
Of course it isn't, SeanF.
Rotherham is no more a Muslim problem than the Savile case is a disc jockey problem, even though Muslims and disc jockeys have been 'overrepresented' in recent scandals.
It is a problem of law and order, of care, of policing, of parenting, and of course culture.
The similarity between Rotherham and Savile is that the perpetrators were (for differing reasons) considered "untouchable", which led to the escalation of the conduct.
South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.
Very wrong.
I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....
Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....
Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.
Few things more stomach churning than a politician trying to score party political points from an essentially non-party political problem.
That the Labour Party takes it's northern strongholds for granted is not really relevant.
There may well be some votes to "win" from this, but Farage should be careful.
The same commenter posted more, again just from this month:
TRIED TO REMOVE CONDOM - BIRMINGHAM - PR6752 It is reported that on the 15/08/2014 at midnight in a park in the Small Heath area of Birmingham a woman was approached by a man on foot and oral sex was agreed. He is described as; Asian, 20-24, 5'10, thin, stubble, wearing black hoodie and trousers. He reportedly tried to pull the condom off during business.*Don't share this alert.This is as reported to NUM & doesn't reflect UKNSWP's views
WOMAN VIOLENTLY ASSAULTED-MANCHESTER-PR6652 5/8/14 @ 23:30,Adair St,Manchester, woman app by man who asked if she was working, oral agreed. He desc;Asian,British,5' 9,skinny,short black hair,in black fleecy jacket, black tracksuit bottoms, smelt of BO. They walked nearby, once buss started man repeatedly punched woman. She managed to get away when another woman came to help*Don't share this alert.As reported to NUM & doesn't reflect UKNSWP's views
ASSAULT - BIRMINGHAM - PR6744 (POSS LINK PR6742) It is reported that on the 08/08/2014 in the Soho Rd area of Birmingham area a woman was approached by a man driving a white, two door car with reg: RU1 RU. The only description available is that the man was Asian. After business he reportedly punched the woman in the face.*Don't share this alert.This is as reported to NUM & doesn't reflect UKNSWP's views
Beheadings Stonings Honour killings Civil war Organised mass child rape Female genital mutilation Terrorism State sponsored funding of terrorism Genocide et cetera ad nauseam
All in the news in recent months. I wonder what the connecting theme might be here?
Everyone else’s patience may run out with this lot at some point. We may in our current age simply be enjoying the fruits of ‘Peak Muslim’. It won’t go on forever.
Maybe it’s simpler than we think. Young men everywhere want what they want. Maybe all these young monsters need is a girlfriend who puts out, beer, a barbecue and for their ‘community leaders’ to STFU. We’d all be a lot happier. So would they.
These are exactly the points being raised in my office today, what sort of religion is Islam when it is used to justify there crimes. I am afraid that the prevelance of these crimes by muslims will lead to huge problems in this Country in the future.
The one good thing is that ludicrous political correctness may have had its day in this country and the rule of law should be applied to everyone without fear of being called a racist.
@Sean_F Read the posts from today, and earlier on yesterday, and it is not the impression given. I am not defending the Rotherham criminals, I am just pointing out that child abuse does not need an "ethnic" component, in the same way that the sale of illegal drugs is not a "black" issue.
In this instance however, the race and culture of the perpetrators, and the victims, do appear to be relevant factors. And, they also appear to have a bearing on the reasons for the lack of response from people who were charged with the protection of children.
If the situation was reversed, and gangs of white men were targeting Pakistani Muslim girls for rape, we would surely consider that race was a relevant factor.
Of course, it would be utterly wrong to jump to the conclusion that Pakistani Muslim men in general target white girls for rape.
@malcolmg "However we do not normally see child abusers hunting in packs. " It is quite common for pedophiles to form groups, as it is in several other social and anti-social cases. An example of this can be found on the sharing of child abuse images online.
"I believe I am the most appropriate person to hold this office at this current time"
PCC Shaun Wright was the councillor in charge of children's services at Rotherham Council from 2005 to 2010. If the man in charge was oblivious to the scale of child abuse in his area when it was at its height, why on earth would he think he’s the ‘most appropriate’ person now to take charge?
Reeks of conflict of interest at the very least.
That is why I want the post of elected police commissioner to be abolished, conflict of interest.
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
I don't think that's the view of most people here at all.
Of course it isn't, SeanF.
Rotherham is no more a Muslim problem than the Savile case is a disc jockey problem, even though Muslims and disc jockeys have been 'overrepresented' in recent scandals.
It is a problem of law and order, of care, of policing, of parenting, and of course culture.
The similarity between Rotherham and Savile is that the perpetrators were (for differing reasons) considered "untouchable", which led to the escalation of the conduct.
Exactly, Mark.
The Elm House case may yet show however that some who thought themselves untouchable are not actually so.
South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.
Very wrong.
I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....
Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....
Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.
'an essentially non-party political problem.' .
Is it though? We're talking directly about the attitudes and actions of elected officials of one party in particular.
What we appear to be agreeing is that Enoch Powell was right. Shock horror! 'But he's a wacist!'
And if you read what he actually said in his Rivers of Blood speech - he was. And a quiet decent man - and no racist. The left delibeately misinterpreted and misportrayed him. For shame.
@Sean_F Read the posts from today, and earlier on yesterday, and it is not the impression given. I am not defending the Rotherham criminals, I am just pointing out that child abuse does not need an "ethnic" component, in the same way that the sale of illegal drugs is not a "black" issue.
In this instance however, the race and culture of the perpetrators, and the victims, do appear to be relevant factors. And, they also appear to have a bearing on the reasons for the lack of response from people who were charged with the protection of children.
If the situation was reversed, and gangs of white men were targeting Pakistani Muslim girls for rape, we would surely consider that race was a relevant factor.
Of course, it would be utterly wrong to jump to the conclusion that Pakistani Muslim men in general target white girls for rape.
Indeed. And the fact is that in Rotherham at least, a gang/gangs of men which were Muslim inflicted untold damage and misery on young girls, and that their race (or at least other peoples fear of offence of that race) allowed them to get away with it, and to continue committing these acts.
... at times it can be difficult to understand the thinking of the Better Together campaign.
In fact it often appears as if the campaign would have been better not campaigning at all, given that it’s leading in the polls.
Yes needs to take gambles to win support, Better Together does not, so why release an ad implying women are timid, confused and apparently unaware of who the First Minister is?
It was precisely the need to avoid these sorts of blunders that led the campaign to bring in Blue State Digital – the group credited with orchestrating Barack Obama’s online campaign. It does not seem to have helped.
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
I don't think that's the view of most people here at all.
Of course it isn't, SeanF.
Rotherham is no more a Muslim problem than the Savile case is a disc jockey problem, even though Muslims and disc jockeys have been 'overrepresented' in recent scandals.
It is a problem of law and order, of care, of policing, of parenting, and of course culture.
If there were dozens of unrelated gangs of disc jockeys across different cities in the UK carrying out child abuse, I would indeed call it a disc jockey problem.
Ed Balls adds re Wright: "it's important that people in positions of responsibility take responsibility" #wato Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More Paul Waugh @paulwaugh 1m On #wato, @edballsmp: "Mr Wright should stand down..because of the failures of leadership." #RotherhamAbuse
For those denying cultural background is a factor:
Dr Taj Hargey, imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation, said race and religion were inextricably linked to the recent spate of grooming rings in which Muslim men have targeted under-age white girls.
South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.
Very wrong.
I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....
Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....
Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.
'an essentially non-party political problem.' .
Is it though? We're talking directly about the attitudes and actions of elected officials of one party in particular.
How is that not a party political issue?
We are? I thought we were talking about the systematic targeting of young white, socially disadvantaged girls by Pakistani men?
It is clear that there were failings in the duty of care from Social Services and the Police, but is it clear that the reason behind this is directly linked to the Labour Party and it's disregard of the core WWC vote?
@Patrick No Patrick, I am not agreeing or indeed disagreeing with what Enoch said or didn't say. I am pointing out that criminality is not dependent on race or culture, but more on circumstances. Culture and ethnicity can sometimes have an effect, but are not the cause.
"... the rule of law should be applied to everyone without fear of being called a racist ..."
Of course it should. However, there is not a chance of it happening in the foreseeable future. The, dodgy to my mind, conclusions of McPherson have gone too deep into the public sector consciousness.
South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.
Very wrong.
I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....
Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....
Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.
'an essentially non-party political problem.' .
Is it though? We're talking directly about the attitudes and actions of elected officials of one party in particular.
How is that not a party political issue?
We are? I thought we were talking about the systematic targeting of young white, socially disadvantaged girls by Pakistani men?
It is clear that there were failings in the duty of care from Social Services and the Police, but is it clear that the reason behind this is directly linked to the Labour Party and it's disregard of the core WWC vote?
The report clearly alleges that councillors of Pakistani origin tried to interfere with the investigation. All the councillors of Pakistani origin on Rotherham council in recent years have been Labour politicians.
You may wish that race/culture were not a factor, but the facts in Rotherham suggest otherwise.
I dislike the fact of gravity, and I wish it were not so, but I won't leap over any cliffs in the near future.
On a lighter note, Man Utd's misfortune is amusing and producing a lot of activity. Answers to the question ... "What is better than Man Utd?" include ... "Finding John Terry's car on your driveway."
@CD13 "Culture" certainly has an effect, you can see it in the banking system, amongst many others. As I said earlier though, it has an effect, but is not the cause.
I am not sure these Police & Crime Commissioner roles are a good idea. They seem to be used as political cover for the Chief Constable and the Home Office.
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
I don't think that's the view of most people here at all.
Of course it isn't, SeanF.
Rotherham is no more a Muslim problem than the Savile case is a disc jockey problem, even though Muslims and disc jockeys have been 'overrepresented' in recent scandals.
It is a problem of law and order, of care, of policing, of parenting, and of course culture.
If there were dozens of unrelated gangs of disc jockeys across different cities in the UK carrying out child abuse, I would indeed call it a disc jockey problem.
Well the problem does appear to have been particularly noticeable in that occupational group, as it has across the entertainment industry generally.
I think it would be a fair point to make that business does has a certain culture which makes that kind of thing a bit too common. My own limited exposure to the biz would tend to support that, although of course my evidence is anecdotal.
Similarly I think it would be fair to say that some racial or cultural groups have a bit of a problem in this connection. Any group that treats women as second-class citizens, for example, seems to me to have a problem straight away.
The broader problem though is principally of accountability, care, proper policing and the like. Concentrate on that and you have a chance of dealing with it direct without falling into the trap of stigmatising a whole class of individuals, be they Pakistanis, disc jockeys, or whatever.
Only thing wrong with Mike's proposition is that it will be YES and so you just lose all your money exactly the same as if you had backed NO at 1-6. Only consolation is that you will have had fun thinking you were going to win more money but same end result.
A smart bettor would have hopefully be in a situation where they win regardless of the outcome, taking advantage of changing prices to hedge bets one way or the other.
Must say, you seem to be in a good mood today.. you've posted three times and not had a go at anyone... ;-)
LOL, I am indeed in a sunny mood, all is well
Then don't read this then:
When will the penny drop for Alex Salmond? Monday’s TV debate was no triumph for the SNP leader – it was his biggest deceit. He may have got cheap cheers from the studio audience but his currency plans, whether A or B, don’t add up
LOL, mad cochers the arch unionist , financial expert and all round TURNIP. Luckily he is moving to a foreign country soon.
So a bit like Scotland's financial sector then ;-)
We will see if the doom mongers are correct Alan, we have heard it all before and they went nowhere. You would think by now they would just shut up or move.
Interesting historical parallels - you lost your independence after the banks phut (Darien)...it's likely that the banks will be a major factor in NO winning this time around.
The reality is that the banking sector as a whole is too large - but also that a smallish economy, like iScot would be, simply can't support two major international banks. Even Hong Kong as trouble sometimes, and they're not really HSBC's lead market from a regulatory and capital support perspective
... at times it can be difficult to understand the thinking of the Better Together campaign.
In fact it often appears as if the campaign would have been better not campaigning at all, given that it’s leading in the polls.
Yes needs to take gambles to win support, Better Together does not, so why release an ad implying women are timid, confused and apparently unaware of who the First Minister is?
It was precisely the need to avoid these sorts of blunders that led the campaign to bring in Blue State Digital – the group credited with orchestrating Barack Obama’s online campaign. It does not seem to have helped.
South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.
Very wrong.
I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....
Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....
Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.
The nightmare might be ours if racial tensions are whipped up by self serving polititians. Thats as bad as ignoring the issue in the first place. What is the truth? It would be nice to find out. Senior (we must presume left leaning) council officials are locked in some sort of Stokholm Syndome symbiotic relationship with Labour polititians - something which goes back years and predates hysteric anti muslim terrorist based hysteria. And the police ignore it! There was ample opportunity to stop all this short - and instead we have seen a terrible issue made far worse and magnified into an attack on a community, which is the nominal reason for covering it up in the first place.
South Yorks Police dismiss the systemic rape of children in their patch by a section of society. Yet are happy to go, mob-handed, down to Berkshire to sift through all of Cliff Richard's possessions.
Very wrong.
I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....
Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....
Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.
'an essentially non-party political problem.' .
Is it though? We're talking directly about the attitudes and actions of elected officials of one party in particular.
How is that not a party political issue?
We are? I thought we were talking about the systematic targeting of young white, socially disadvantaged girls by Pakistani men?
It is clear that there were failings in the duty of care from Social Services and the Police, but is it clear that the reason behind this is directly linked to the Labour Party and it's disregard of the core WWC vote?
Oh come on, the report is pretty clear on the actions of elected officals in this scandal. That directly links the actions of these individuals to the labour party on Rotherham council, and their attitudes and actions.
Only thing wrong with Mike's proposition is that it will be YES and so you just lose all your money exactly the same as if you had backed NO at 1-6. Only consolation is that you will have had fun thinking you were going to win more money but same end result.
A smart bettor would have hopefully be in a situation where they win regardless of the outcome, taking advantage of changing prices to hedge bets one way or the other.
Must say, you seem to be in a good mood today.. you've posted three times and not had a go at anyone... ;-)
LOL, I am indeed in a sunny mood, all is well
Then don't read this then:
When will the penny drop for Alex Salmond? Monday’s TV debate was no triumph for the SNP leader – it was his biggest deceit. He may have got cheap cheers from the studio audience but his currency plans, whether A or B, don’t add up
LOL, mad cochers the arch unionist , financial expert and all round TURNIP. Luckily he is moving to a foreign country soon.
So a bit like Scotland's financial sector then ;-)
We will see if the doom mongers are correct Alan, we have heard it all before and they went nowhere. You would think by now they would just shut up or move.
Interesting historical parallels - you lost your independence after the banks phut (Darien)...it's likely that the banks will be a major factor in NO winning this time around.
The reality is that the banking sector as a whole is too large - but also that a smallish economy, like iScot would be, simply can't support two major international banks. Even Hong Kong as trouble sometimes, and they're not really HSBC's lead market from a regulatory and capital support perspective
We can do with or without the English banks. Darien was a rich man's project , nothing to do with the common man, it was the like's of yourself that funded it and when the money was lost you sold the country over the common people's heads to enrich yourselves. We will happily have some Scottish banks rise from the ashes of the London run UK shyster banks that we currently have , run by spivs and conmen. As constantly bleated on here they will be back where they really belong and called Nat West and Halifax and will not be hiding behind Scottish names.
Talk of localism is very popular at the moment but what sort of services are we likely to get in deprived areas where the jobs have gone, the aspirational have left and the council is a one party state.
Does iScotland have to come into every discussion?
... at times it can be difficult to understand the thinking of the Better Together campaign.
In fact it often appears as if the campaign would have been better not campaigning at all, given that it’s leading in the polls.
Yes needs to take gambles to win support, Better Together does not, so why release an ad implying women are timid, confused and apparently unaware of who the First Minister is?
It was precisely the need to avoid these sorts of blunders that led the campaign to bring in Blue State Digital – the group credited with orchestrating Barack Obama’s online campaign. It does not seem to have helped.
... at times it can be difficult to understand the thinking of the Better Together campaign.
In fact it often appears as if the campaign would have been better not campaigning at all, given that it’s leading in the polls.
Yes needs to take gambles to win support, Better Together does not, so why release an ad implying women are timid, confused and apparently unaware of who the First Minister is?
It was precisely the need to avoid these sorts of blunders that led the campaign to bring in Blue State Digital – the group credited with orchestrating Barack Obama’s online campaign. It does not seem to have helped.
Mr. G, but the Scottish voters will worry about it. The politicians this side of the border have been clear, and if they changed their minds voters would be furious.
Mr. Socrates, I did mention it, but for obvious reasons there were other matters being discussed. Nothing will happen from the West.
I'm sure China will be taking notes. When they come to invade Taiwan or Mongolia, all they need to do is invade with unmarked uniforms and tanks, pretend its "pro-Chinese militias" unrelated to them, stage fixed referendums and then agree to annexation. We didn't stand for countries invading their neighbours in 1914 or 1939 or 1979 or 1991 - what's happened to us?
Only thing wrong with Mike's proposition is that it will be YES and so you just lose all your money exactly the same as if you had backed NO at 1-6. Only consolation is that you will have had fun thinking you were going to win more money but same end result.
A smart bettor would have hopefully be in a situation where they win regardless of the outcome, taking advantage of changing prices to hedge bets one way or the other.
Must say, you seem to be in a good mood today.. you've posted three times and not had a go at anyone... ;-)
LOL, I am indeed in a sunny mood, all is well
Then don't read this then:
When will the penny drop for Alex Salmond? Monday’s TV debate was no triumph for the SNP leader – it was his biggest deceit. He may have got cheap cheers from the studio audience but his currency plans, whether A or B, don’t add up
LOL, mad cochers the arch unionist , financial expert and all round TURNIP. Luckily he is moving to a foreign country soon.
So a bit like Scotland's financial sector then ;-)
We will see if the doom mongers are correct Alan, we have heard it all before and they went nowhere. You would think by now they would just shut up or move.
Interesting historical parallels - you lost your independence after the banks phut (Darien)...it's likely that the banks will be a major factor in NO winning this time around.
The reality is that the banking sector as a whole is too large - but also that a smallish economy, like iScot would be, simply can't support two major international banks. Even Hong Kong as trouble sometimes, and they're not really HSBC's lead market from a regulatory and capital support perspective
We will happily have some Scottish banks rise from the ashes of the London run UK shyster banks that we currently have , run by spivs and conmen.
Such as Fred Goodwin? Och no, forgot, he's a Scot.
You could use the Dunfermline Building Society as a business model.
@Slackbladder Who was telling who that there was "no problem"? Were the council led by the police, and the social services, or was the council leading one, or both, of the other? And if it was widely known, you would have thought that the Conservative, and independent council members should have made far more noise about the affair? In the end, criminality is a police and prosecution matter, though it does not excuse the others involved for their lack of care either.
... at times it can be difficult to understand the thinking of the Better Together campaign.
In fact it often appears as if the campaign would have been better not campaigning at all, given that it’s leading in the polls.
Yes needs to take gambles to win support, Better Together does not, so why release an ad implying women are timid, confused and apparently unaware of who the First Minister is?
It was precisely the need to avoid these sorts of blunders that led the campaign to bring in Blue State Digital – the group credited with orchestrating Barack Obama’s online campaign. It does not seem to have helped.
I think people should lay off the police. Imagine you are a young copper with a mortgage and a family in Rotherham during the Blair years. Are you really going to go against the huge tide of political correctness? When your career is on the line? When the potential perpetrators could accuse you of racism and have that accusation investigated by the 'complaints'? When you'd end up being a complete pariah at work? Maybe even lose your job and be unable to get another one because of the 'racist' mark of Cain?
Do me a favour. The blame for this lies with the tide of multiculturalism that accompanied the Blair government's importing of a ready made immigrant client state from Pakistan in the noughties. They set the agenda for others to follow.
The senior people in the labour party of the time is where we should be looking for the chief culprits for these desperate events.
As someone who grew up living ten miles away (and do again) and has a similar background to perpetrators in Rotherham time for me add my tuppence worth.
I had no idea this was going on, the first time I became aware of it was when Nick Griffin raised it. My instinct was it can't be true if he says it. I might be one or two people and he's smearing just as he did when he said most Muslims support terrorism and cited Abu Hamza and Anjem Choudry.
It is the point Andrew Norfolk of the Times made as well.
The most disturbing thing is for me most of the perpetrators are people who were born and raised here, it might have made me feel better on one level if they had been immigrants.
These people's parents and grandparents who came over here from Pakistan are and would be ashamed of their actions, they wanted their kids to be Doctors, solicitors and accountants not child abusers.
I think the failure is a lack of integration.
I grew up in a very middle class place and was the only none white pupil at my school house/year for the most part.
I don't think it a clash of civilisations more down to segregation of the different groups and we must learn to integrate better.
Sorry to have waffled on but I hope it makes sense.
Some very good comments there TSE. Regarding integration, I'm under the impression that the very large scale immigration over recent decades have brought their own problems. The indigenous population could not assimilate such large numbers easily and therefore groups segregated into their own areas and continued practising the cultural behaviours they were used to, but in a western environment. This exposed the younger elements to 'decadent' western values whilst living to the 'old country' mores. This lead to friction and non acceptance of the host country ways of life.
I think the indiginous population could have assimilated the numbers. This has happened over a long period and we are beyond second generation now as well. What has happened is certain small defined areas have been dominated by immigrants. Of course other areas are dominated by certain people - its just that they are not so visibly obvious. It has happened in the past as well - take 'chinatowns' for instance. Time and space allow 'assimilation' - what everyone has been a victim of is 'multiculturalism. by that I take it to mean that different cultures should not nhave to should nor be allowed to assimilate.
This is a problem called by left wing polititians. The crimes are terrible but should have been stopped a decade ago at no cost to community relations.
Only thing wrong with Mike's proposition is that it will be YES and so you just lose all your money exactly the same as if you had backed NO at 1-6. Only consolation is that you will have had fun thinking you were going to win more money but same end result.
A smart bettor would have hopefully be in a situation where they win regardless of the outcome, taking advantage of changing prices to hedge bets one way or the other.
Must say, you seem to be in a good mood today.. you've posted three times and not had a go at anyone... ;-)
LOL, I am indeed in a sunny mood, all is well
Then don't read this then:
When will the penny drop for Alex Salmond? Monday’s TV debate was no triumph for the SNP leader – it was his biggest deceit. He may have got cheap cheers from the studio audience but his currency plans, whether A or B, don’t add up
LOL, mad cochers the arch unionist , financial expert and all round TURNIP. Luckily he is moving to a foreign country soon.
So a bit like Scotland's financial sector then ;-)
We will see if the doom mongers are correct Alan, we have heard it all before and they went nowhere. You would think by now they would just shut up or move.
Interesting historical parallels - you lost your independence after the banks phut (Darien)...it's likely that the banks will be a major factor in NO winning this time around.
The reality is that the banking sector as a whole is too large - but also that a smallish economy, like iScot would be, simply can't support two major international banks. Even Hong Kong as trouble sometimes, and they're not really HSBC's lead market from a regulatory and capital support perspective
We will happily have some Scottish banks rise from the ashes of the London run UK shyster banks that we currently have , run by spivs and conmen.
Such as Fred Goodwin? Och no, forgot, he's a Scot.
You could use the Dunfermline Building Society as a business model.
Airdrie Savings Bank is fine. We certainly do not need the crooked UK run banks for sure. Can you name any other Scot in the UK banks oh wise one. PS: we will certainly not follow the London bank model.
''Who was telling who that there was "no problem"? Were the council led by the police, and the social services, or was the council leading one, or both, of the other?''
All were led by the agenda set by the Blair government.
@taffys You could say the same throughout the "Thatcher" years, when the same police force appears to have followed the government line, and with the collusion of the media, committed quite a few less than savoury acts?
So we had the happy reconciliation between Alastair and Gordon in Dundee today, which was nice. Gordon was interrupted by a Yes supporter who made Malcolm look civilised and who was eventually chucked out.
Gordon was Gordon with a slightly better smile. Retirement (other than being a full time MP of course) is suiting him. Lots of tractor statistics spun off from memory involving lots of suspiciously round numbers but for once I did not doubt his heart was in the right place.
Star of the show was Archie MacPherson who I remember as having a shock of red hair but is now bald. Strong, angry speech about Scotland's part in the creation of the UK welfare state and why we should stick together.
Alastair Darling still speaks too fast. He is not a natural public speaker.
There was a very good attendance but to be honest I haven't seen many of those attending out canvassing. I remember from my SDP days that a lot of people thought of themselves as political activists because they turned up for meetings rather than when there was work to be done.
South Yorkshire PCC (who was Rotherham cabinet member for children) is refusing to step down but it looks Labour is ready to drop him. Chris Bryant asked him to resign.
And so he should. But he first apologised as a Labour Counsellor years ago. Why was he not asked to resign then??
@Slackbladder Who was telling who that there was "no problem"? Were the council led by the police, and the social services, or was the council leading one, or both, of the other? And if it was widely known, you would have thought that the Conservative, and independent council members should have made far more noise about the affair? In the end, criminality is a police and prosecution matter, though it does not excuse the others involved for their lack of care either.
You're not really getting this concept of 'culture' are you. The political culture helped this happen. The police culture helped this happen. Multicultural ideas helped this happen.
Read the report. It's very clear on these areas that whenever concerns were raised, they were downplayed or suppressed.
On twitter via Paul Waugh. @paulwaugh 5m BREAKING Labour spokesman re Rotherham: "In the light of this report, it's appropriate SYorks PCC Shaun Wright shd step down"
The entire labour council at Rotherham should resign en mass.
I agree.
Look if the French government can resign en masse over what is essentially a squabble over economic policy, then surely an elected body like Rotherham council should be doing so following such a disatsrous and unmitigated failure to act to protect children in their care?
Not if they're following the Margaret Hodge template, where the precedent is that after presiding over it, you deny it, insult the victims and get appointed Minister for Children.
@CD13 Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it... The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
I don't think that's the view of most people here at all.
I think it's a matter of clear fact that a large proportion of child abuse in Rotherham was indeed committed by Muslims, as the report shows,
Or to put it the other way around, if Pakistani Muslims are 3% of the local population, then for their rate of offending to be no different from everyone's, there would need to be another 45,000 girls in the area who have been sexually abused by whites.
You'd then have 46,500 victims, of whom 3% (1,400) were the victims of Pakistani Muslims and 97% (45,000) were the victims of white abusers.
This seems quite unlikely. So on what we do know, we can conclude that sexual abuse of children in Rotherham is predominantly a Pakistani Muslim offence.
Does anyone know what the national incidence is? My guess would be that there aren't 45,000 further victims in the whole of the rest of the country. There are some things, however, that you just don't Google at work.
You could say the same throughout the "Thatcher" years, when the same police force appears to have followed the government line, and with the collusion of the media, committed quite a few less than savoury acts?
Completely incorrect. The police were upholding the rule of the law set by the parliament of Britain in the 1980s against illegal strikers doing illegal things.
The Blair government encouraged and even demanded state employees subvert the rule of law to suit their own agenda.
OMG, I don't wish to make light of this hideous issue, but I'm not sure I have ever seen such a parade of human ugliness. It's like the cast of Monsters Inc.
Well, it seems that Birmingham schools have been teaching that white girls are prostitutes, I can't believe that council education department doesn't know,
Comments
Meanwhile, the world watches:
http://fortune.com/2014/08/27/scots-business-leaders-finally-come-down-against-independence/
If say two families in an area caused say 30% of the crime in the area, the defence by Smarmeron and Michael White would be that 70% was caused by all the many other families. I doubt if the magistrate would be sympathetic.
I have no problem facing "facts", the problem here on PB, is that there is only one "fact" that appears to be relevant, with the others conveniently ignored.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_Wright
I had no idea this was going on, the first time I became aware of it was when Nick Griffin raised it. My instinct was it can't be true if he says it. I might be one or two people and he's smearing just as he did when he said most Muslims support terrorism and cited Abu Hamza and Anjem Choudry.
It is the point Andrew Norfolk of the Times made as well.
The most disturbing thing is for me most of the perpetrators are people who were born and raised here, it might have made me feel better on one level if they had been immigrants.
These people's parents and grandparents who came over here from Pakistan are and would be ashamed of their actions, they wanted their kids to be Doctors, solicitors and accountants not child abusers.
I think the failure is a lack of integration.
I grew up in a very middle class place and was the only none white pupil at my school house/year for the most part.
I don't think it a clash of civilisations more down to segregation of the different groups and we must learn to integrate better.
Sorry to have waffled on but I hope it makes sense.
Talk of localism is very popular at the moment but what sort of services are we likely to get in deprived areas where the jobs have gone, the aspirational have left and the council is a one party state.
About to speak @LBC to Shadow Home Sec Yvette Cooper about Rotherham sex abuse scandal and why South Yorks PCC Shaun Wright should resign.
Putting words in peoples mouths is never a good sign in a debate, but since you started it...
The consensus here is that if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved.
Indeed it is a problem of monoculturalism / failure to integrate.
Anecdotally it fits, because the areas that come under Rotherham council control that I head through regularly are overwhelmingly white (Wales parish) - also the "Rotherham council" area extends a fair way out of Rotherham.
Apologies if I've misread you, but the consensus isn't that "if we stop Muslims from committing child abuse, the problem is 99% solved."
The consensus is that there is probably a disproportion, and this was probably caused by "racial sensitivity" enforcing the feeling of the perpetrators that they could get away with it and the cultural feeling that some of the girls were asking for it.
I am sure people will say , oh the millionaires that pay slave wages are all against us having democracy , that has made me change my mind I better vote NO.
The world does not have a SAY and 133 troughers does not a NO vote make.
Next you will be asking who will bail out the Scottish Banks that you told me would all be in England and be English banks. Unionists seem very confused.
The council in Rotherham decided to have an independent inquiry, but they're probably doing their best to let it be forgotten elsewhere.
This is why parliamentary action is needed. David Cameron - how are you going to respond to this?
Read the posts from today, and earlier on yesterday, and it is not the impression given.
I am not defending the Rotherham criminals, I am just pointing out that child abuse does not need an "ethnic" component, in the same way that the sale of illegal drugs is not a "black" issue.
There have been rumours circulating round Edinburgh for many years. Suspicious break in at Lothian and Borders Police HQ with the farcical cover up. Just to give a flavour:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/fettesgate-magic-circle-spells-panic-in-the-police-1-1193291
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fettesgate
http://scottishlaw.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/curious-case-of-magic-circle-gay.html
Newish reports suggest that other well known and respected legal and political types were involved not just in Edinburgh, but also in London. It looks like the proverbial is just about to hit the rotating air conditioning.
Very wrong.
I think SeanT is right, this could be a big moment in our politics. Hard to see what UKIP has to lose by going all guns blazing for the way Labour has taken for granted its northern WWC voters so as to keep its Muslims onboard....
Who else are they going to vote for? cynical Labour asks dismissively. Well actually , my lot, says Nigel Farage. And he may well be right, if this issue gets traction....
Nigel Farage may yet be Ed Miliband's worst nightmare.
Rotherham is no more a Muslim problem than the Savile case is a disc jockey problem, even though Muslims and disc jockeys have been 'overrepresented' in recent scandals.
It is a problem of law and order, of care, of policing, of parenting, and of course culture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYd9qbRz2fc
The response of many was "you're just a racist chav so shut the fuck up, we can't hear you over the sound of how civilized and middle class we are."
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/27/rotherham-child-abuse-police-commissioner-urged-resign
The 64k dollar question is can the PCC be arrested or prosecuted by his own police?
Ask any sex worker we have the biggest problems with Pakistani men , most escorts here in London specify no Pakistani men on their profile but then sex work isn't governed by the politically correct rules of the establishment.Now I also specify no Pakistani men on my profile after a few scary incidents,this is a problem all around UK .THis needs to be addressed it is happening .
After being asked further:
Yes, they always try and fiddle you out of money and get aggressive ,they always hassle to not wear a condom and often try and slip it off in the middle of Sex hoping you won't notice,they don't wash or pay any attention to their personal hygiene,and just generally treat you like a piece of dirt,I live next to Tower Hamlets and city of London so I either get requests from city workers or the Pakistani community and trust me I would rather a kind gentlemanly clean respectful guy than a dirty disrespectful aggressive pig and the young ones are the worst they just literally throw their money at you or on the floor,I'm lucky though I'm not a street sex worker and I'm very picky and screen my clients well but I'm part of a sex worker warning scheme that sends out alerts to sex workers of abusive and dangerous incidents and 95 percent of those are from the Pakistani community this is an example of one day of reports .
WOMAN RAPED-MANCHESTER-PR6632 4/8/14@8pm,Fairfield St,woman app by man in clean,silver Volkswagen,Passat model.Man desc;Asian,5'6,med build,25-29,black hair short back&sides,shaven body all over,blue Reebok top,black Nike bottoms. Oral agreed. Drove to car park,Store St,asked do business back of car,strangled, pinned down&raped her.After,said"Get the fuck out",pushing out &speeding off*Dont share alert.As reported to NUM,doesnt reflect UKNSWPs views
PCC Shaun Wright was the councillor in charge of children's services at Rotherham Council from 2005 to 2010. If the man in charge was oblivious to the scale of child abuse in his area when it was at its height, why on earth would he think he’s the ‘most appropriate’ person now to take charge?
Reeks of conflict of interest at the very least.
One thing is for sure I don't want to see taxpayers forking out hundreds of thousands of pounds in compensation a la Shoesmith.
What we appear to be agreeing is that Enoch Powell was right. Shock horror! 'But he's a wacist!'
And if you read what he actually said in his Rivers of Blood speech - he was. And a quiet decent man - and no racist. The left delibeately misinterpreted and misportrayed him. For shame.
Nick Sutton @suttonnick 9m
.@DenisMacShane: "No single individual, no constituent, no child, no family came to see me."
That the Labour Party takes it's northern strongholds for granted is not really relevant.
There may well be some votes to "win" from this, but Farage should be careful.
TRIED TO REMOVE CONDOM - BIRMINGHAM - PR6752
It is reported that on the 15/08/2014 at midnight in a park in the Small Heath area of Birmingham a woman was approached by a man on foot and oral sex was agreed. He is described as; Asian, 20-24, 5'10, thin, stubble, wearing black hoodie and trousers. He reportedly tried to pull the condom off during business.*Don't share this alert.This is as reported to NUM & doesn't reflect UKNSWP's views
WOMAN VIOLENTLY ASSAULTED-MANCHESTER-PR6652 5/8/14 @ 23:30,Adair St,Manchester, woman app by man who asked if she was working, oral agreed. He desc;Asian,British,5' 9,skinny,short black hair,in black fleecy jacket, black tracksuit bottoms, smelt of BO. They walked nearby, once buss started man repeatedly punched woman. She managed to get away when another woman came to help*Don't share this alert.As reported to NUM & doesn't reflect UKNSWP's views
ASSAULT - BIRMINGHAM - PR6744 (POSS LINK PR6742) It is reported that on the 08/08/2014 in the Soho Rd area of Birmingham area a woman was approached by a man driving a white, two door car with reg: RU1 RU. The only description available is that the man was Asian. After business he reportedly punched the woman in the face.*Don't share this alert.This is as reported to NUM & doesn't reflect UKNSWP's views
The one good thing is that ludicrous political correctness may have had its day in this country and the rule of law should be applied to everyone without fear of being called a racist.
If the situation was reversed, and gangs of white men were targeting Pakistani Muslim girls for rape, we would surely consider that race was a relevant factor.
Of course, it would be utterly wrong to jump to the conclusion that Pakistani Muslim men in general target white girls for rape.
"However we do not normally see child abusers hunting in packs. "
It is quite common for pedophiles to form groups, as it is in several other social and anti-social cases. An example of this can be found on the sharing of child abuse images online.
The Elm House case may yet show however that some who thought themselves untouchable are not actually so.
We'll see.
How is that not a party political issue?
Teenage girls who suffered litany of abuse have disappeared from official view and their fates are unknown
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/27/abused-children-unknown-fates
In fact it often appears as if the campaign would have been better not campaigning at all, given that it’s leading in the polls.
Yes needs to take gambles to win support, Better Together does not, so why release an ad implying women are timid, confused and apparently unaware of who the First Minister is?
It was precisely the need to avoid these sorts of blunders that led the campaign to bring in Blue State Digital – the group credited with orchestrating Barack Obama’s online campaign. It does not seem to have helped.
http://referendum.holyrood.com/daily-blog
McShane has just been on the World at One on Radio 4. Worth a listen.
Has young Shadsy been crushed under the weight of PB money?
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Paul Waugh @paulwaugh 1m
On #wato, @edballsmp: "Mr Wright should stand down..because of the failures of leadership." #RotherhamAbuse
Balls says 'The Labour party has no power to compel somebody who's been elected as PCC to stand down'.
Dr Taj Hargey, imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation, said race and religion were inextricably linked to the recent spate of grooming rings in which Muslim men have targeted under-age white girls.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10061217/Imams-promote-grooming-rings-Muslim-leader-claims.html
It is clear that there were failings in the duty of care from Social Services and the Police, but is it clear that the reason behind this is directly linked to the Labour Party and it's disregard of the core WWC vote?
Not everyone who passes you accurate information is your friend; not everyone who passes you false information is your enemy.
No Patrick, I am not agreeing or indeed disagreeing with what Enoch said or didn't say.
I am pointing out that criminality is not dependent on race or culture, but more on circumstances.
Culture and ethnicity can sometimes have an effect, but are not the cause.
"... the rule of law should be applied to everyone without fear of being called a racist ..."
Of course it should. However, there is not a chance of it happening in the foreseeable future. The, dodgy to my mind, conclusions of McPherson have gone too deep into the public sector consciousness.
You may wish that race/culture were not a factor, but the facts in Rotherham suggest otherwise.
I dislike the fact of gravity, and I wish it were not so, but I won't leap over any cliffs in the near future.
On a lighter note, Man Utd's misfortune is amusing and producing a lot of activity. Answers to the question ... "What is better than Man Utd?" include ... "Finding John Terry's car on your driveway."
Good news for me I have India GT 257.5, GT 263.5 and GT 267.5 at various point in the match
"Culture" certainly has an effect, you can see it in the banking system, amongst many others.
As I said earlier though, it has an effect, but is not the cause.
Do we really need this extra political layer ?
I think it would be a fair point to make that business does has a certain culture which makes that kind of thing a bit too common. My own limited exposure to the biz would tend to support that, although of course my evidence is anecdotal.
Similarly I think it would be fair to say that some racial or cultural groups have a bit of a problem in this connection. Any group that treats women as second-class citizens, for example, seems to me to have a problem straight away.
The broader problem though is principally of accountability, care, proper policing and the like. Concentrate on that and you have a chance of dealing with it direct without falling into the trap of stigmatising a whole class of individuals, be they Pakistanis, disc jockeys, or whatever.
The reality is that the banking sector as a whole is too large - but also that a smallish economy, like iScot would be, simply can't support two major international banks. Even Hong Kong as trouble sometimes, and they're not really HSBC's lead market from a regulatory and capital support perspective
What is the truth? It would be nice to find out. Senior (we must presume left leaning) council officials are locked in some sort of Stokholm Syndome symbiotic relationship with Labour polititians - something which goes back years and predates hysteric anti muslim terrorist based hysteria. And the police ignore it!
There was ample opportunity to stop all this short - and instead we have seen a terrible issue made far worse and magnified into an attack on a community, which is the nominal reason for covering it up in the first place.
We will happily have some Scottish banks rise from the ashes of the London run UK shyster banks that we currently have , run by spivs and conmen.
As constantly bleated on here they will be back where they really belong and called Nat West and Halifax and will not be hiding behind Scottish names.
All bets looking good
Dont get many betting days like this.
Note to self Must remove winnings rather than think it will continue
You could use the Dunfermline Building Society as a business model.
Who was telling who that there was "no problem"? Were the council led by the police, and the social services, or was the council leading one, or both, of the other?
And if it was widely known, you would have thought that the Conservative, and independent council members should have made far more noise about the affair?
In the end, criminality is a police and prosecution matter, though it does not excuse the others involved for their lack of care either.
“If you’re not catching flak,you’re not over the target.”
I think people should lay off the police.
Imagine you are a young copper with a mortgage and a family in Rotherham during the Blair years.
Are you really going to go against the huge tide of political correctness?
When your career is on the line?
When the potential perpetrators could accuse you of racism and have that accusation investigated by the 'complaints'?
When you'd end up being a complete pariah at work?
Maybe even lose your job and be unable to get another one because of the 'racist' mark of Cain?
Do me a favour. The blame for this lies with the tide of multiculturalism that accompanied the Blair government's importing of a ready made immigrant client state from Pakistan in the noughties. They set the agenda for others to follow.
The senior people in the labour party of the time is where we should be looking for the chief culprits for these desperate events.
This is a problem called by left wing polititians. The crimes are terrible but should have been stopped a decade ago at no cost to community relations.
PS: we will certainly not follow the London bank model.
All were led by the agenda set by the Blair government.
You could say the same throughout the "Thatcher" years, when the same police force appears to have followed the government line, and with the collusion of the media, committed quite a few less than savoury acts?
Isn't that The Nurenberg Defence? 'I was only obeying orders...'
It's no defence at all. Never has been.
Gordon was Gordon with a slightly better smile. Retirement (other than being a full time MP of course) is suiting him. Lots of tractor statistics spun off from memory involving lots of suspiciously round numbers but for once I did not doubt his heart was in the right place.
Star of the show was Archie MacPherson who I remember as having a shock of red hair but is now bald. Strong, angry speech about Scotland's part in the creation of the UK welfare state and why we should stick together.
Alastair Darling still speaks too fast. He is not a natural public speaker.
There was a very good attendance but to be honest I haven't seen many of those attending out canvassing. I remember from my SDP days that a lot of people thought of themselves as political activists because they turned up for meetings rather than when there was work to be done.
Read the report. It's very clear on these areas that whenever concerns were raised, they were downplayed or suppressed.
You'd then have 46,500 victims, of whom 3% (1,400) were the victims of Pakistani Muslims and 97% (45,000) were the victims of white abusers.
This seems quite unlikely. So on what we do know, we can conclude that sexual abuse of children in Rotherham is predominantly a Pakistani Muslim offence.
Does anyone know what the national incidence is? My guess would be that there aren't 45,000 further victims in the whole of the rest of the country. There are some things, however, that you just don't Google at work.
Completely incorrect. The police were upholding the rule of the law set by the parliament of Britain in the 1980s against illegal strikers doing illegal things.
The Blair government encouraged and even demanded state employees subvert the rule of law to suit their own agenda.