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  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @nigel4england
    I am afraid not, you will have to learn for yourself why fear generates hate, and hatred has no reason.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    AndyJS said:

    The UK is one of the least racist countries in the world. The Netherlands might be slightly ahead of us.

    Citation needed? About average in my view, though much less so than it used to be and certainly less than France and Russia. I'd give the Americans credit for being a bit ahead of us, and the Germans too - they have their racists but the depth of loathing for racism among most people is much greater, because of the national experience of it.

    By the way, I think we need to make a distinction between people who say they'd like to have sharia law or an Islamic state, and people who attempt violence or intimidation. The former is permissible (freedom of opinion and all that), the latter not. At present I can't see why this requires a new law of any kind, and I'm opposed to "crushing" any peacefully-expressed opinion. Too much of the "we had to destroy freedom in order to save it" thinking about that.
    No Nick, we do not need to make that distinction.

    Anyone who would like to have Sharia law and an Islamic state should not be here in the first place, regardless of whether they are prepared to use violence or intimidation, they are simply in the wrong country.

    I cannot tell you how scary I find it that you are likely to be elected soon.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    AndyJS said:

    The UK is one of the least racist countries in the world. The Netherlands might be slightly ahead of us.

    Citation needed? About average in my view, though much less so than it used to be and certainly less than France and Russia. I'd give the Americans credit for being a bit ahead of us, and the Germans too - they have their racists but the depth of loathing for racism among most people is much greater, because of the national experience of it.

    By the way, I think we need to make a distinction between people who say they'd like to have sharia law or an Islamic state, and people who attempt violence or intimidation. The former is permissible (freedom of opinion and all that), the latter not. At present I can't see why this requires a new law of any kind, and I'm opposed to "crushing" any peacefully-expressed opinion. Too much of the "we had to destroy freedom in order to save it" thinking about that.
    Does Trevor Philips count as a citation?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1121442/TREVOR-PHILLIPS-Why-Britain-LEAST-racist-country-Europe.html

    Also this recent British Social Attitudes Survey

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/britain-becoming-less-racist
    Not really. Trevor doesn't seem to mention Europe in the piece even though the Mail's headline-writer does, and he tacitly concedes America is less racist. The BSAS shows we're less racist than we were, which I'm sure is true.

    Anyway, it's not really a competition - main thing is that it's improved. Overt racism is now extraordinarily rare
  • The Sunday Times have not put any polling stuff in any of their articles.

    So we'll have to wait until 6am for YouGov to post the figures.

    Good night everyone.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Smarmeron said:

    @nigel4england
    I am afraid not, you will have to learn for yourself why fear generates hate, and hatred has no reason.

    So you have no explanation then, as I thought.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    The Sunday Times have not put any polling stuff in any of their articles.

    So we'll have to wait until 6am for YouGov to post the figures.

    Good night everyone.

    Given up?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited August 2014

    AndyJS said:

    The UK is one of the least racist countries in the world. The Netherlands might be slightly ahead of us.

    Citation needed? About average in my view, though much less so than it used to be and certainly less than France and Russia. I'd give the Americans credit for being a bit ahead of us, and the Germans too - they have their racists but the depth of loathing for racism among most people is much greater, because of the national experience of it.

    By the way, I think we need to make a distinction between people who say they'd like to have sharia law or an Islamic state, and people who attempt violence or intimidation. The former is permissible (freedom of opinion and all that), the latter not. At present I can't see why this requires a new law of any kind, and I'm opposed to "crushing" any peacefully-expressed opinion. Too much of the "we had to destroy freedom in order to save it" thinking about that.
    Does Trevor Philips count as a citation?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1121442/TREVOR-PHILLIPS-Why-Britain-LEAST-racist-country-Europe.html

    Also this recent British Social Attitudes Survey

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/britain-becoming-less-racist
    Not really. Trevor doesn't seem to mention Europe in the piece even though the Mail's headline-writer does, and he tacitly concedes America is less racist. The BSAS shows we're less racist than we were, which I'm sure is true.

    Anyway, it's not really a competition - main thing is that it's improved. Overt racism is now extraordinarily rare
    I'd also cite for example in this country, a party like Front National has never even come close to winning a nationwide election.

    For me this sums up how wonderful this country is, from Roderick Spode, the best thing we've done is laugh at the extremists

    Makes you proud to be British

    Far-Right Extremists Chased Through London by Women Dressed as Badgers

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bnp-edl-hate-fascist-badgers-473597
  • The Sunday Times have not put any polling stuff in any of their articles.

    So we'll have to wait until 6am for YouGov to post the figures.

    Good night everyone.

    Given up?
    Nope, I'm happy to pick this up again, from Tuesday onwards, as I have a busy few days ahead, and I need to sleep.

    I love discussing stuff with people who think the EDL are the voice of reason.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    The Sunday Times have not put any polling stuff in any of their articles.

    So we'll have to wait until 6am for YouGov to post the figures.

    Good night everyone.

    Given up?
    Nope, I'm happy to pick this up again, from Tuesday onwards, as I have a busy few days ahead, and I need to sleep.

    I love discussing stuff with people who think the EDL are the voice of reason.
    I did apologise for that terminology and the fact you keep repeating it says more about you than me.

    Look forward to crossing swords next week, when no doubt more radicalized Brits will have helped to further your argument.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    This story did make me smile, possibly NSFW

    Ann Summers apologises after launching a range of underwear with the same name as terrorist group ISIS

    Ann Summers said they named the ISIS lingerie range 'months' ago

    The company said the range is named after the Egyptian fertility goddess Isis

    Ann Summers said they are totally opposed to violence and terrorism

    The Isis range features thongs, suspenders, bras and a babydoll

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2732768/Ann-Summers-apologises-launching-range-underwear-terrorist-group-ISIS.html

    ISIS should really have been called ISIL - Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant.
    I'd vote for Sunnis Unleashed in Northern Iraq and the Levant
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @nigel4england
    No explanation that you will understand until you learn what fear is and why it can save you or kill you.
    Short term fear sharpens your reactions and can save your life, long term fear makes you irrational and gets you killed.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Ninoinoz said:

    But surely, Mr. Eagles, you welcome religious and ethnic minorities being welcomed into political organisations?

    Additionally, you must have nothing but praise for Nick Griffin's exposure of Asian, Northern, Muslim child abusers, especially after his persecution by the BBC and the authorities?

    First point, not really.

    Second point yes, criminality needs to be exposed, I wish he had also focussed on the abuse of Catholic Church's systematic abuse of children.
    I'm not sure that's entirely fair.

    Certainly they systematically covered it up and, in moving alleged offenders around rather than, ahem, exposing them, facilitated further abuse.

    But it was a sin of omission rather than commission, which is what your post implies.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Smarmeron said:

    @nigel4england
    No explanation that you will understand until you learn what fear is and why it can save you or kill you.
    Short term fear sharpens your reactions and can save your life, long term fear makes you irrational and gets you killed.

    Oh please do grow up, just answer the original question and spare me the amateur dramatics.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Ninoinoz said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    kle4 said:

    It would sem that the Lib Dems and Nick Clegg have replaced the Conservatives as the toxic party.

    How is it that the cuddly, harmless, sandle wearing Lib Dems are seen as being so toxic?

    kle4 said:

    I

    Congratulations, sir, it appears you have isolated and identified the toxin.

    For the LibDems, it's running an election campaign to the left of Labour Party, but ending up in coalition with the Conservative Party.

    For the Tories, it's throwing their erstwhile friends under buses. Current examples: their entire membership - 'swivel-eyed', social and religious conservatives - 'bigots', Eurosceptics (no Lisbon referendum), patriots - 'racists' and, finally, the providers of annuities (largest industry of its kind in the World). Remember, it was the callous destruction of mortgagees and small businessmen/self-employed under Major that gave the Tories the epithet in the first place.

    Cameron de-toxifying the Conservatives? He seems to have concentrated it with his chumocracy and his reducing the membership to laughable numbers.

    Personally, I think it's to do with their attending boarding schools.
    My sister is a 'social and religious' conservative. She is a regular churchgoer and actually believes in God as well. When her son got married (to a woman I should add) there were 3 gay people at his wedding. She gets on with them quite well and is not horrified at the issue of gay partnership or marriage.
    Her experience and the polling which show clear majorities in favour of gay marriage in all 4 parties tells me that your analysis 'is not only not right, it is not even wrong'.
    Yeah, amazing how UKIP's rise 'coincided' with being the only party that opposed gay marriage.

    Equally amazing how such a 'vote-winner' led directly to a slump in Conservative ratings. And a mass exodus from that party.

    Also, adding belief in God as an afterthought in your anecdote hardly suggests your sister is that much of a 'religious conservative'.

    Congratulations to your nephew and his new wife, BTW.
    You have less sensible to say in reply than originally. Amazing.
    A nice prepared smartarse response devoid of any counter-arguments, but rendered obviously stupid by your ignoring my wedding congratulation to your nephew.

    But, what did I expect from someone ignoring the fundamental meaning of matrimony, literally 'mother-making'.
    As a Christian, I find it impossible to believe that a loving God would wish people excluded from the joys of lifelong commitment as expressed in marriage.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @nigel4england
    I will explain it all to you later Nigel, when you have become a big boy. and have stopped being scared of monsters your mind creates.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Smarmeron said:

    @nigel4england
    I am afraid not, you will have to learn for yourself why fear generates hate, and hatred has no reason.

    So, given @kle4's observation FPT that so many on the left seem to hate the Tories, you are acknowledging that the Left has no reason?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Charles
    Of course many don't, and neither do many on the right.
    Public ownership of the means of production is as insane as the "free market". They are ideological fortresses we retreat to when the "enemy appears".
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    Pamela Geller ‏@PamelaGeller 42m
    Jewish man arrested after chasing off pro-Hamas Jew haters in London: Jewish persecution in the UK. The Brits ... http://bit.ly/YO9cLC

    British cops in magnificent form tonight.

    Well done for linking to Pamela Geller, a woman banned from this country for her views, the SPLC have damned her as well.
    Well I certainly prefer Pamela Geller to Khadijah Dare.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11049663/James-Foley-murder-British-woman-vows-to-become-first-female-to-behead-western-prisoner-in-Syria.html
    From the sound of her that Dare girl is a product of the gang culture as both a victim and participant. In terms of religion as an excuse as opposed to religion as a reason there was always likely to be crossover.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I can't wait to see the back of Grayling as Justice Secretary. Banning the one thing prisoners should be permitted - books - was an unforgivable error IMO.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @AndyJS
    Not books per se, the ban is on "importing books", which you can sort of see a reason behind.
    The problem there is that the prisoners then can only access what is allowed in the library, so you are denying them the freedom of thought.
    Another field day for the lawyers, and another excuse to demand withdrawal from the Human Rights?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Spectator article:

    "Porn-agains: meet the middle-aged men - and women - warped by internet porn

    Society's anxiety about online porn has been so focused on the young that its impact on the older generation has gone largely unnoticed"


    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9275381/porn-agains-meet-the-middle-aged-men-and-women-warped-by-internet-porn/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Smarmeron said:

    @AndyJS
    Not books per se, the ban is on "importing books", which you can sort of see a reason behind.
    The problem there is that the prisoners then can only access what is allowed in the library, so you are denying them the freedom of thought.
    Another field day for the lawyers, and another excuse to demand withdrawal from the Human Rights?

    Wasn't the problem to do with smuggling stuff inside them? Surely the expense for checking them is not exactly massive?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    In honour of the Stuart Dickson memorial prize for selective use of Scottish sub-samples:

    How favourable or unfavourable are you towards Scottish Independence (fav/unfav)
    Scotland: 45:36
    OA: 14:49

    http://comres.co.uk/polls/SM_IoS_Political_Poll_24th_August_2014_12371.pdf

    Table 21
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @RobD
    It is more to do with the content of the book I think?
    Checking a book for contraband should be reasonably easy though.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Smarmeron said:

    @RobD
    It is more to do with the content of the book I think?
    Checking a book for contraband should be reasonably easy though.

    If it really was about content, then that is pretty bad, however I have only seen references to smuggling as a reason.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited August 2014
    RobD
    How long would it take to run it through a scanner, and let "fred" the sniffer dog give it a nose?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Smarmeron said:

    RobD
    How long would it take to run it through a scanner, and let "fred" the sniffer dog give it a nose?

    My point exactly... daft ban.
  • Charles said:



    As a Christian, I find it impossible to believe that a loving God would wish people excluded from the joys of lifelong commitment as expressed in marriage.

    Shame God didn't marry the mother of His Only Begotten Son :)
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @RobD
    Yes, it is patently daft. But you can then only really conclude that is must be a ban on the content?
    The other option is, whoever made the ruling should be considering his/her position?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2014
    Fraser Nelson believes the UK is poorer than any US state apart from Mississippi. I haven't studied the data in detail but it sounds like utter nonsense to me:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/fraser-nelson/2014/08/why-britain-is-poorer-than-any-us-state-other-than-mississippi/
  • Charles said:

    This story did make me smile, possibly NSFW

    Ann Summers apologises after launching a range of underwear with the same name as terrorist group ISIS

    Ann Summers said they named the ISIS lingerie range 'months' ago

    The company said the range is named after the Egyptian fertility goddess Isis

    Ann Summers said they are totally opposed to violence and terrorism

    The Isis range features thongs, suspenders, bras and a babydoll

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2732768/Ann-Summers-apologises-launching-range-underwear-terrorist-group-ISIS.html

    ISIS should really have been called ISIL - Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant.
    I'd vote for Sunnis Unleashed in Northern Iraq and the Levant
    So how did ISIL become ISIS? Levant begins with an L in English!
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @AndyJS
    I wouldn't call it utter nonsense. It would depend on the data chosen of course, but there will be a an amount of truth in it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    Charles said:

    This story did make me smile, possibly NSFW

    Ann Summers apologises after launching a range of underwear with the same name as terrorist group ISIS

    Ann Summers said they named the ISIS lingerie range 'months' ago

    The company said the range is named after the Egyptian fertility goddess Isis

    Ann Summers said they are totally opposed to violence and terrorism

    The Isis range features thongs, suspenders, bras and a babydoll

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2732768/Ann-Summers-apologises-launching-range-underwear-terrorist-group-ISIS.html

    ISIS should really have been called ISIL - Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant.
    I'd vote for Sunnis Unleashed in Northern Iraq and the Levant
    So how did ISIL become ISIS? Levant begins with an L in English!
    S = syria.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    Charles said:



    As a Christian, I find it impossible to believe that a loving God would wish people excluded from the joys of lifelong commitment as expressed in marriage.

    Shame God didn't marry the mother of His Only Begotten Son :)
    would have been bigamy?

  • RobD said:

    Charles said:

    This story did make me smile, possibly NSFW

    Ann Summers apologises after launching a range of underwear with the same name as terrorist group ISIS

    Ann Summers said they named the ISIS lingerie range 'months' ago

    The company said the range is named after the Egyptian fertility goddess Isis

    Ann Summers said they are totally opposed to violence and terrorism

    The Isis range features thongs, suspenders, bras and a babydoll

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2732768/Ann-Summers-apologises-launching-range-underwear-terrorist-group-ISIS.html

    ISIS should really have been called ISIL - Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant.
    I'd vote for Sunnis Unleashed in Northern Iraq and the Levant
    So how did ISIL become ISIS? Levant begins with an L in English!
    S = syria.
    As-Sham = Levant.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    entirely O/T last night watched the Kurosawa film "Rashomon"

    fanstastic , makes you think. utterly manic Mifune Toshiro.

    See, I'm catching up on 1950 films. I'll get to return of the jedi eventually. I guess in about 50 years time.

    I'll watch the new Disney Star Wars one if Mickey Mouse appears.

    (I'm up to about 1949 with Mickey)
  • Charles said:



    As a Christian, I find it impossible to believe that a loving God would wish people excluded from the joys of lifelong commitment as expressed in marriage.

    Shame God didn't marry the mother of His Only Begotten Son :)
    would have been bigamy?

    Mary could have left a mere carpenter to marry a deity!
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @dugarbandier
    Religion needs mystery, otherwise people might start listening to what there prophet/god was actually saying, rather than what the priest/leader tell them he said
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,114
    edited August 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    @nigel4england
    No explanation that you will understand until you learn what fear is and why it can save you or kill you.
    Short term fear sharpens your reactions and can save your life, long term fear makes you irrational and gets you killed.

    "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering!" - Master Yoda.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Sunil_Prasannan
    "Fear is the little death... Dune
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Smarmeron
    I assumed you would have read Dune, but in case you haven't


    I must not fear.
    Fear is the mind-killer.
    Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
    I will face my fear.
    I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
    And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
    Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
    Only I will remain.[2]
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited August 2014
    Off-topic:

    A really interesting discussion tonight and congratulations to Smarmie for graduating into a decent contributor (with the Tromso-Troll adding the usual insightful/incite-ful barbs). But why anyone bothers discussing anything with the Plastic-Yorkshireman/Scots-born-Muhammadan is beyond me: Given the choice of the EDL and Islam I will pinch-my-nose and take the former....*

    * And our least favourite Lawyer may also like to point to the EDL website where it states it is 'anti-Islam'. Gossip and conjecture from the HuffPuff is not fact.

    EtA: Before anyone calls 'wacist' a quick question: If you were asked to define a bigot in two words would the phrase 'Phil Woolas' qualify? [I.e is a name two words or an identifying phrase?]
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    You don't think for a minute that I didn't take that into consideration when I posted that link and raised my concerns? But, hey, this is the Daily Mail, their online site is so successful that circulation of this article was guaranteed despite my concerns! Maybe I should just have posted a mysterious comment alluding to an article by a mainstream UK newspaper online and raising my concerns, and then left you all to go on a newspaper hunt to find the right article that was freely available to anyone! What patronising prat.
    isam said:

    fitalass said:

    I am very uncomfortable with the Mail running this article, it is very irresponsible IMHO.
    Daily Mail - SAS high-tech hunt for the killers of James Foley: 'Significant force' of UK elite troops on ground in Iraq

    glw said:

    That editorial is laughable. In the end its only recommendation is that Dave should deliver a lecture.

    'What is missing is a narrative from Britain's political leader that is strong on clarity and firm on logic. He is in a position where he could contribute to – and even lead – a meaningful, nuanced and robust discussion about what current events in Iraq tell us about the delicate tribal, economic and religious issues at play and what part Britain played in that narrative over the last 10 years.'
    When Libya kicked off in 2011 lots of left wingers, both politicians and journalists, were ranting about government inaction and predicting a hostage crisis. In reality MI6 and UK special forces were already in Libya, and very successfully rounded up British citizens, and safely got them out of the country. Some of them had to leave via Hercules aircraft that landed on airfields our soldiers secured in the desert. The government kept shtum while all this was happening.

    I suspect that the UK is very much involved in taking action against ISIS now, for obvious reasons, but we won't know about it until it's all over.

    The government needs no advice from the likes of the Observer.
    So you thought you'd link to it!?! Genius
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    For those clinging to canvassing results (and will no doubt spot a conspiracy when the final outcome is not in line with them) a useful piece from the What Scotland Thinks website:

    http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/08/why-bigger-isnt-always-better/

    Political campaigners can often be heard complaining that opinion polls do not reflect what they are hearing ‘on the doorstep’. Arguing that they have spoken to many more people than the 1,000 or so typically interviewed for a poll, they claim the polls must be biased or just plain wrong. In Scotland, the Radical Independence Campaign has carried out several ‘mass canvasses’ in which its activists have contacted over 5,000 households. After undecided voters are excluded, they report a majority for Yes by around 60% to 40%. This is almost the polar opposite of the picture presented by the polls – the most recent ‘poll of polls’ (based on an average of the last 6 published polls) puts Yes support at 43% and No on 57%.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Almost certainly true in the UK also:

    Which intoxicating substance is associated with the most lethal violence? Devotees of the Wire might presume that cocaine or maybe heroin would top the list, especially if you asked the worst causes of violence in poor, minority communities.

    The correct answer, by far, is alcohol. It’s involved in more homicides than pretty much every other substance, combined. Alcohol’s relative importance has grown over the last fifteen years, as aging populations of cocaine users account for a declining proportion of violent crime.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/19/alcohol-is-still-the-deadliest-drug-in-the-united-states-and-its-not-even-close/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    FPT demolishing the UKIP are Tories on holiday - compare & contrast their attitudes to intervention in the current a Middle East mess: (net approve)

    Con/UKIP:

    RAF dropping humanitarian supplies: +77 / +58
    US air strikes: +65 / +41
    RAF participating in air strikes: +31 / +10
    Britain arming Kurds: +7 / -10
    Britain sending troops to train anti-ISIS: -11 / -37
    Britain giving asylum to homeless Iraqi Christians: -11 / -44
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    fitalass said:

    I am very uncomfortable with the Mail running this article, it is very irresponsible IMHO.
    Daily Mail - SAS high-tech hunt for the killers of James Foley: 'Significant force' of UK elite troops on ground in Iraq

    glw said:

    That editorial is laughable. In the end its only recommendation is that Dave should deliver a lecture.

    'What is missing is a narrative from Britain's political leader that is strong on clarity and firm on logic. He is in a position where he could contribute to – and even lead – a meaningful, nuanced and robust discussion about what current events in Iraq tell us about the delicate tribal, economic and religious issues at play and what part Britain played in that narrative over the last 10 years.'
    When Libya kicked off in 2011 lots of left wingers, both politicians and journalists, were ranting about government inaction and predicting a hostage crisis. In reality MI6 and UK special forces were already in Libya, and very successfully rounded up British citizens, and safely got them out of the country. Some of them had to leave via Hercules aircraft that landed on airfields our soldiers secured in the desert. The government kept shtum while all this was happening.

    I suspect that the UK is very much involved in taking action against ISIS now, for obvious reasons, but we won't know about it until it's all over.

    The government needs no advice from the likes of the Observer.
    The article starts: "The Mail on Sunday has been given a detailed account of how ...". In other words, the authorities want this published, presumably to deter any more would-be jihadists from buying airline tickets.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    For those clinging to canvassing results (and will no doubt spot a conspiracy when the final outcome is not in line with them) a useful piece from the What Scotland Thinks website:

    http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/08/why-bigger-isnt-always-better/

    Political campaigners can often be heard complaining that opinion polls do not reflect what they are hearing ‘on the doorstep’. Arguing that they have spoken to many more people than the 1,000 or so typically interviewed for a poll, they claim the polls must be biased or just plain wrong. In Scotland, the Radical Independence Campaign has carried out several ‘mass canvasses’ in which its activists have contacted over 5,000 households. After undecided voters are excluded, they report a majority for Yes by around 60% to 40%. This is almost the polar opposite of the picture presented by the polls – the most recent ‘poll of polls’ (based on an average of the last 6 published polls) puts Yes support at 43% and No on 57%.

    I question whether people talking face to face on the doorstep wish to be seen as travelling on the populist wave of independence, whereas when dealing with pollsters they are more likely to reflect what they are likely to do in the privacy of the polling booth.

    I further question whether the polarised and sometimes aggressive nature of the debate, makes it even more likely that those being doorstepped will choose the "Yes dear" option, both to maker life easier, and so they can get back to the telly.

  • Whenever there is an international crisis the press scream 'SAS are being sent'. Given the number of Sabre squadrons best ignore....
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516
    edited August 2014

    Smarmeron said:

    @nigel4england
    Catholicism and Protestantism need crushed as well do they? Hinduism and Buddhism and every other "ism"?

    No, nor Judaism.

    Just those who do not wish to live within our society, the way we have lived for centuries in the British way of life. Is that too much to expect?
    Just curious: All of the ism's mentioned still have their militant minorities who would like to change the UK to fit their dream and everyone else's nightmares.

    Take a look at the history of these Isles. We have had brutal Catholicism and Protestantism, there has been mass murder of Jews (York), civil wars, racist pogroms and discrimination. Heck, one town even managed to hang a monkey because they thought he was french.

    One of the great things about this country is now our consensus of ignoring or even laughing at some of the extreme bigotry and intolerance.

    However, by your argument, all forms of religous extremism and any other ism you dislike or disapprove of, should be banned on pain of death.

    I suspect that should your ideas come about, that the population of the UK would decrease dramatically, until, at the last, only you were alive.

    Of course, all this is just speculation. I, personally, tend more to militant atheism as I believe that religons have been a curse on this planet ... AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516

    For those clinging to canvassing results (and will no doubt spot a conspiracy when the final outcome is not in line with them) a useful piece from the What Scotland Thinks website:

    http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/08/why-bigger-isnt-always-better/

    Political campaigners can often be heard complaining that opinion polls do not reflect what they are hearing ‘on the doorstep’. Arguing that they have spoken to many more people than the 1,000 or so typically interviewed for a poll, they claim the polls must be biased or just plain wrong. In Scotland, the Radical Independence Campaign has carried out several ‘mass canvasses’ in which its activists have contacted over 5,000 households. After undecided voters are excluded, they report a majority for Yes by around 60% to 40%. This is almost the polar opposite of the picture presented by the polls – the most recent ‘poll of polls’ (based on an average of the last 6 published polls) puts Yes support at 43% and No on 57%.

    And I am to disagree with a SNumPtie who chaps on my door, holding a clipboard with a piece of paper on which is my name and address and a box alongside waiting for a tick or a cross??

    Er! No!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Champagne's staying on ice for now...

    @TheScreamingEagles

    "Don't Fail Me Again... Mr Eagles"!

    Three hours till this week's Sunil on Sunday publishes its ELBOW :)
    Will The Sunil be able to find it's ELBOW from JackW's ARSE?

    Well, JackW will certainly be able to discern his ARSE from our ELBOW!
    He is too busy making an ARSE of himself in Edinburgh
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    fitalass said:
    Desperation personified - Tories hope Labour has beens can save them
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    edited August 2014
    Edin_Rokz said:

    For those clinging to canvassing results (and will no doubt spot a conspiracy when the final outcome is not in line with them) a useful piece from the What Scotland Thinks website:

    http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/08/why-bigger-isnt-always-better/

    Political campaigners can often be heard complaining that opinion polls do not reflect what they are hearing ‘on the doorstep’. Arguing that they have spoken to many more people than the 1,000 or so typically interviewed for a poll, they claim the polls must be biased or just plain wrong. In Scotland, the Radical Independence Campaign has carried out several ‘mass canvasses’ in which its activists have contacted over 5,000 households. After undecided voters are excluded, they report a majority for Yes by around 60% to 40%. This is almost the polar opposite of the picture presented by the polls – the most recent ‘poll of polls’ (based on an average of the last 6 published polls) puts Yes support at 43% and No on 57%.

    And I am to disagree with a SNumPtie who chaps on my door, holding a clipboard with a piece of paper on which is my name and address and a box alongside waiting for a tick or a cross??

    Er! No!
    Any normal person would just tell the truth unless they were spineless.

    Considering these polls were taken in areas where you would not normally knock someones door and try to intimidate them and the people knocking are not likely to be hard nuts, I doubt many would be intimidated into giving false information.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited August 2014
    Edin_Rokz said:

    For those clinging to canvassing results (and will no doubt spot a conspiracy when the final outcome is not in line with them) a useful piece from the What Scotland Thinks website:

    http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/08/why-bigger-isnt-always-better/

    Political campaigners can often be heard complaining that opinion polls do not reflect what they are hearing ‘on the doorstep’. Arguing that they have spoken to many more people than the 1,000 or so typically interviewed for a poll, they claim the polls must be biased or just plain wrong. In Scotland, the Radical Independence Campaign has carried out several ‘mass canvasses’ in which its activists have contacted over 5,000 households. After undecided voters are excluded, they report a majority for Yes by around 60% to 40%. This is almost the polar opposite of the picture presented by the polls – the most recent ‘poll of polls’ (based on an average of the last 6 published polls) puts Yes support at 43% and No on 57%.

    And I am to disagree with a SNumPtie who chaps on my door, holding a clipboard with a piece of paper on which is my name and address and a box alongside waiting for a tick or a cross??

    Er! No!
    Thoughts from a No voter on what it's like to face a YESNP canvasser and the belief system at work:

    The signs are as follows:

    - assertion that the cause (in this case independence) will of itself bring about miraculous results

    - messianic belief that the cause is a force of destiny, i.e., that “history is on our side”

    - hatred and belittling of those who do not share the cause (see above)

    - irrational dismissal of impartial information such as opinion polls and the
    media as being in the hands of the enemies of the people

    - conspiracy theories (like advising voters to not use pencil provided as it can be rubbed out and
    falsified)



    Haven't heard the last one yet - but the rest of it rings pretty true.....

    http://planetpedro.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/dear-yes-voters-and-other-nationalists/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,970
    "Well, JackW will certainly be able to discern his ARSE from our ELBOW!"

    Och it's gruesome!!


    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SRTBaafRZfw/TOq_839e-hI/AAAAAAAAFLw/Cg18gonIXkY/s1600/queen_and_soldiers.jpg
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