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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How whether Scotland remains part of the UK is totally do

SystemSystem Posts: 12,227
edited August 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How whether Scotland remains part of the UK is totally dominating the political betting markets at the moment

Very few political markets ever top the £1m mark on Betfair and my guess, based on other elections, more than £5m will be at stake on the referendum on Betfair alone.

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Comments

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @HurstLama
    Is OGH a member of the temperance movement?
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    PB Hodges at the bottom of the polling hill, wobbling about their party chances in the election and ICM going golden rogue....tough times for tired squirrels.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    No interest in markets where the bet may be tied up for 5+ years...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,446
    TGOHF said:

    No interest in markets where the bet may be tied up for 5+ years...

    I've stuck £30 on Andy Burnham.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Smarmeron said:

    @HurstLama
    Is OGH a member of the temperance movement?

    I think all the PB meet-ups have been held in a pub?

    I would guess not many people were ordering a hot cocoa...
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @OblitusSumMe
    It was a reference to the other thread. OGH's face shows he is no stranger to a drop or two ;-)
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Smarmeron said:

    @HurstLama
    Is OGH a member of the temperance movement?

    Not in my very limited experience.

    @OblitusSumMe

    The Sussex PB Meet was NOT held in a pub, we wouldn't do anything so common. It was held in a curry house.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    http://www.ukip.org/ukip_home_affairs_spokesman_diane_james_calls_verdict_ominous

    European Court of Human Rights gets a pasting from Diane James.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,446
    Manchester is next isn't it ?

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Smarmeron said:

    @HurstLama
    Is OGH a member of the temperance movement?

    Not in my very limited experience.

    @OblitusSumMe

    The Sussex PB Meet was NOT held in a pub, we wouldn't do anything so common. It was held in a curry house.
    I expect you all drank milk to cope with the spiciness of the food?
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    No interest in markets where the bet may be tied up for 5+ years...

    I've stuck £30 on Andy Burnham.
    It would have been better sent on Help for Heroes, you would get more satisfaction out of that in the end.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11027559/Russia-sends-280-trucks-with-humanitarian-aid-to-Ukraine.html

    Ukraine rejects Russian aid: says no agreement to let Russian trucks into Ukraine territory.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,785
    MikeK said:

    http://www.ukip.org/ukip_home_affairs_spokesman_diane_james_calls_verdict_ominous

    European Court of Human Rights gets a pasting from Diane James.

    Seems a reasonable verdict to me. Yes they ought to have the vote, no they can’t claim the money for the case.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,446

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    No interest in markets where the bet may be tied up for 5+ years...

    I've stuck £30 on Andy Burnham.
    It would have been better sent on Help for Heroes, you would get more satisfaction out of that in the end.
    A charity will get some cash when I lose the Indy Ref bet I've got with James Bond.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @Smarmeron

    On the subject of the temperance movement there was a strong Salvationist streak in my father's family before WWI and between the wars. He was born and brought up in Shoreditch and Bethnal Green, so you can imagine the pressures. As a result, as a teenager he signed the pledge and was awarded his Band of Hope Medal.

    In his later years the Old Boy took particular pride in wearing his Band of Hope along with his WW2 medals on formal occasions. He claimed that only one person ever picked him up on it, a Royal Duke at a big piss-up in Great Queen Street. The Duke knew exactly what the medal was and thought it very funny that someone should wear it to such an occasion.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    No interest in markets where the bet may be tied up for 5+ years...

    I've stuck £30 on Andy Burnham.
    That bet has a timeline of infinity.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    PB Hodges at the bottom of the polling hill, wobbling about their party chances in the election and ICM going golden rogue....tough times for tired squirrels.

    I enjoyed Mike's last thread. They were having none of it. Swingback is an article of faith in their religion.
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Here's RodCrosby with his Swingback Calculator

    http://thingsthatwegoogleatwork.tumblr.com/post/34225790889
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    No interest in markets where the bet may be tied up for 5+ years...

    I've stuck £30 on Andy Burnham.
    Burnham is an excellent bet, the odds on him are ridiculously long and don't match up at all with his popularity within the party. Chuka Umunna doesn't have a cat's chance in hell of winning any leadership election.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited August 2014
    Given the betting interest in the main IndyRef result, it seems odd that the bookies (and Betfair) are not providing a wider range of other markets.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Given the betting interest in the main IndyRef result, it seems odd that the bookies (and Betfair) are not providing a wider range of other markets.

    Next SNP leader for example ?
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    edited August 2014
    Hugh said:

    Here's RodCrosby with his Swingback Calculator

    http://thingsthatwegoogleatwork.tumblr.com/post/34225790889

    ARF! If we get another good poll for Labour tonight, it could be the start of the PB Hodges meltdown. Maybe they could magic a Tory Marginal poll out of thin air showing the Tories in the lead, like their leader? Hopefully we will get a 1% Labour lead so the PB Hodges can open up another box of polling crossover tissues. AHHHHHHHHHH......I can feel swingback.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    The real Hodges on Dave & Ed's leadership

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges · 35m
    Miliband won't call for intervention in Iraq till he thinks it's politically safe. Cameron won't till EM does. Leadership. Britain. 2014.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,446
    Where is the "Most Votes" market in Betfair ?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited August 2014
    RAF thinking of Chinooks for Iraq? There will be several deniable "boots on the ground" one would suspect?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,591

    Hugh said:

    Here's RodCrosby with his Swingback Calculator

    http://thingsthatwegoogleatwork.tumblr.com/post/34225790889

    ARF! If we get another good poll for Labour tonight, it could be the start of the PB Hodges meltdown. Maybe they could magic a Tory Marginal poll out of thin air showing the Tories in the lead, like their leader? Hopefully we will get a 1% Labour lead so the PB Hodges can open up another box of polling crossover tissues. AHHHHHHHHHH......I can feel swingback.
    Do you ever post material on this site that isn't extremely puerile?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    isam said:

    The real Hodges on Dave & Ed's leadership

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges · 35m
    Miliband won't call for intervention in Iraq till he thinks it's politically safe. Cameron won't till EM does. Leadership. Britain. 2014.

    What's Uncle Nige's view ?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Leadership. Britain. 2014.

    What's Nigel's position? nothing but silence from UKIP since the whole thing blew up.

    And here's the thing.

    Captured British servicemen wouldn't be corralled into camps or beaten up and paraded on television with ISIS.

    They would be filmed being beheaded.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    Here's RodCrosby with his Swingback Calculator

    http://thingsthatwegoogleatwork.tumblr.com/post/34225790889

    ARF! If we get another good poll for Labour tonight, it could be the start of the PB Hodges meltdown. Maybe they could magic a Tory Marginal poll out of thin air showing the Tories in the lead, like their leader? Hopefully we will get a 1% Labour lead so the PB Hodges can open up another box of polling crossover tissues. AHHHHHHHHHH......I can feel swingback.
    Do you ever post material on this site that isn't extremely puerile?
    Not that has ever been witnessed. I confess I am thinking of looking for the blessed Edmund's gizmo to re-install. In understand it works on Chrome.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    ISIS in London? Some London students think it's well worth pursuing.

    This pro-ISIS leaflet is being handed out by students in London - pic.twitter.com/OwmoHth2Vs

    — Ghaffar Hussain (@GhaffarH) August 12, 2014
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,785
    I believe the Aussies and the Kiwis are officially very hostile to free roaming cats.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,005
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Those deriding Mr. Crosby might recall his 2010 prediction proved a lot more accurate than most people here.

    Mr. K, I couldn't be less surprised if you'd posted Ed Miliband had called for an independent judge-led inquiry. Which is really rather depressing.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    taffys said:

    Leadership. Britain. 2014.

    What's Nigel's position? nothing but silence from UKIP since the whole thing blew up.

    And here's the thing.

    Captured British servicemen wouldn't be corralled into camps or beaten up and paraded on television with ISIS.

    They would be filmed being beheaded.

    Absolutely wrong @taffys. UKIP twitter is full of the horror of Islamic sadism, not only that but Nigel Farage warned of the perils of sucking up to Islam in 2008, and guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    MikeK said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11027559/Russia-sends-280-trucks-with-humanitarian-aid-to-Ukraine.html

    Ukraine rejects Russian aid: says no agreement to let Russian trucks into Ukraine territory.

    In propaganda terms (Putin -> Russian public) that works even better.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.'

    Fair enough, point taken, but 2008 was six years ago, Mr Mike K.

    I couldn't find anything on UKIP's website on what official policy is now, however, on Gaza/Syria/Iraq etc. Or even on ISIS flags in Poplar. Or on arming kurds etc.

  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Anyone know if there's a particular reason we're dropping solar lamps rather than, I dunno, food and shelter and stuff...?

    On Monday night, RAF crews dropped supplies including 3,180 reusable water purification containers containing a total of 15,900 litres of clean water, and 816 solar lamps that can also be used to charge mobile phones.

    The first drop took place on Saturday, delivering 1,200 water containers and 240 solar lanterns.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2014
    The man taking on Ed Miliband in Doncaster North, UKIP candidate Kim Parkinson:
    http://www.doncaster.ukipbranch.org/ge-2015/dn-candidate

    Other UKIP selections in Doncaster:

    Don Valley: Guy Aston.
    http://www.guyastonukip.net/

    UKIP, Doncaster Central: Chris Hodgson
    http://www.doncaster.ukipbranch.org/ge-2015/central

    In all three constituencies no other candidates have been officially selected or reselected according to my information.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    MikeK said:

    Nigel Farage warned of the perils of sucking up to Islam in 2008, and guess what no one took a blind bit of notice.

    That was because of the LibLabCon conspiracy to prevent his warnings being publicised in Mosul, Qaraqosh, Tikrit, and even Baghdad. If only those foreigners had listened to Nigel, all this could have been avoided.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,446
    AndyJS said:

    The man taking on Ed Miliband in Doncaster North, UKIP candidate Kim Parkinson:

    http://www.doncaster.ukipbranch.org/ge-2015/dn-candidate

    Other UKIP selections in Doncaster:

    Don Valley: Guy Aston.
    http://www.guyastonukip.net/

    UKIP, Doncaster Central: Chris Hodgson
    http://www.doncaster.ukipbranch.org/ge-2015/central

    In all three constituencies no other candidates have been officially selected or reselected according to my information.

    Well Thank God for that.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    The real Hodges on Dave & Ed's leadership

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges · 35m
    Miliband won't call for intervention in Iraq till he thinks it's politically safe. Cameron won't till EM does. Leadership. Britain. 2014.

    What's Uncle Nige's view ?
    I don't know
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,785
    Hugh said:

    Anyone know if there's a particular reason we're dropping solar lamps rather than, I dunno, food and shelter and stuff...?

    On Monday night, RAF crews dropped supplies including 3,180 reusable water purification containers containing a total of 15,900 litres of clean water, and 816 solar lamps that can also be used to charge mobile phones.

    The first drop took place on Saturday, delivering 1,200 water containers and 240 solar lanterns.

    Cruel and unusual punishment to deprive someone of their mobile phone. More seriously, in this day and age it does allow contact with the outside world and helps with pinpointing places to drop food etc.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited August 2014
    In all three constituencies no other candidates have been officially selected or reselected according to my information.

    O'Flynn has tweeted the identity of his constituency will be revealed in the next few days.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Hugh
    The Americans might have already done the shelter and food bit?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,446
    edited August 2014
    Peter Davies not contesting Doncaster for UKIP is one less worry for Ed bettors.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,005
    Mr. Nabavi, worth recalling also Warsi warned of the dangers of militant atheism. Spiffing judgement there.

    Appeasement on freedom of speech and self-censorship over cartoons (both Danish 2005 and Jesus and Mo) have contributed to extremist and backward aspects of Islam in the UK. It's bloody depressing.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    edited August 2014
    Sean_F said:

    Hugh said:

    Here's RodCrosby with his Swingback Calculator

    http://thingsthatwegoogleatwork.tumblr.com/post/34225790889

    ARF! If we get another good poll for Labour tonight, it could be the start of the PB Hodges meltdown. Maybe they could magic a Tory Marginal poll out of thin air showing the Tories in the lead, like their leader? Hopefully we will get a 1% Labour lead so the PB Hodges can open up another box of polling crossover tissues. AHHHHHHHHHH......I can feel swingback.
    Do you ever post material on this site that isn't extremely puerile?
    It's just as purile as alot of the other stuff posted on here. EG. It's Milibands fault people are currently dying in Syria and Iraq/Leftards etc
  • Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    No interest in markets where the bet may be tied up for 5+ years...

    I've stuck £30 on Andy Burnham.
    It would have been better sent on Help for Heroes, you would get more satisfaction out of that in the end.

    Or better still COMBAT STRESS.

    Not every person in the armed forces who has been damaged by fighting was a hero.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    The real Hodges on Dave & Ed's leadership

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges · 35m
    Miliband won't call for intervention in Iraq till he thinks it's politically safe. Cameron won't till EM does. Leadership. Britain. 2014.

    What's Uncle Nige's view ?
    He's probably best keeping schtum and letting the news speak for him imo.

    If pushed the first thing with intervening is having something to intervene with - so that's a safe bet i'd have thought.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,943
    Thanks to whoever posted the link to Tristram Hunt on LabourList on the last thread (which I've just skimmed through). I reproduce it here:

    http://labourlist.org/2014/08/labour-would-immediately-halt-goves-a-level-reforms/

    And I've done it for a very important reason. It shows that Tristram Hunt is - and I would willingly have sworn this was impossible - actually as stupid as he sounds.

    I'm a teacher. I've just been made head of department. Gove exasperated me, because he was always so confrontational, but I got the feeling he was passably sane and had some idea of what he was doing and why he was doing it. Hunt has just proven he doesn't understand education, doesn't understand administration and doesn't understand politics. Because this is a shockingly bad announcement on all levels.

    Education: the AS is not a good qualification. In fact, it's a bad one. It isn't much more rigorous or intellectually demanding than a GCSE (at least in history - it may be in say maths or physics, but I doubt it) and I see no evidence that it provides a useful introduction to what is, in fairness, a much more rigorous A2. What is more demanding is the sheer volume of content. Trying to cram all the information needed for an AS exam into two terms nearly killed me last year (literally - with the extra sessions I had to run, and the extra materials I had to produce from scratch, I became so exhausted I had heart trouble). My students looked even more ill than I did by the end of the year, but it goes deeper than that. With AS exams, they are heavily examined for three consecutive years. By the time they get to uni (I used to be a lecturer some years ago) they are brain dead and have had all the enthusiasm sucked out of them. Getting rid of the AS will relieve a lot of that pressure and give them a year to recover. Five years ago, teachers hated AS levels and wanted rid of them. The only reason there is support for them now is because Gove was trying to rid of them and they wanted to be obstreperous.

    (continued)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,943
    (continued)

    Administration: if new A-levels are to go ahead, or not to go ahead, a decision has to be made now. In terms of production of resources, allocation of materials, preparation of teaching schedules (schemes of work) and in devising timetables, 90% of the work will be done by next May. It will, realistically, be too late to stop it. Attempting to stop it would plunge the entire further education system into chaos. At best, it would mean a lot of wasted work and money to preserve a system that most teachers are privately happy to see scrapped. At worst, it could actually mean a year's delay in students starting their A-levels. (Yes - that's a serious warning. They will be unable to start unless we know what qualifications and topics to teach them, even though for financial reasons the new A-level is as similar in content to the old AS/A2 as possible.) With that knock-on effect, visualise the impact on universities in 2017. Further, imagine how much it will cost to educate two cohorts of students at once in 2016.

    Politics: if he doesn't retract this soon, every teacher in the land, and every parent with 16 year old children, will panic and vote Conservative so that they know that chaos will be avoided. Even the NUT might come out against him. That would indeed shift the opinion polls!

    Tristram Hunt has always struck me as the worst sort of braying, patronising, not very intelligent public school and Oxbridge type who owes his situation in life to his family wealth and connections despite his evident lack of innate merit. But I didn't realise he was actually batshit crazy. If he were - God forbid - to become Minister and behave in the way he's threatening to, he would become the most reviled, most inept and most disastrous of all Secretaries of State for Education - and looking at the list of competitors, that's saying quite something.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,062
    isam said:

    The real Hodges on Dave & Ed's leadership

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges · 35m
    Miliband won't call for intervention in Iraq till he thinks it's politically safe. Cameron won't till EM does. Leadership. Britain. 2014.

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,062

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    No interest in markets where the bet may be tied up for 5+ years...

    I've stuck £30 on Andy Burnham.
    It would have been better sent on Help for Heroes, you would get more satisfaction out of that in the end.

    Or better still COMBAT STRESS.

    Not every person in the armed forces who has been damaged by fighting was a hero.
    The transformation of the armed forces into "heroes" has been a remarkable phenomenon over the past 15 years or so.

    They certainly weren't heroes doing eg. overwatches in Co. Fermanagh, etc which is strange as people are now happy to blame the govt not the squaddie whereas then the squaddies were the baddies in many peoples' eyes.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    The real Hodges on Dave & Ed's leadership

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges · 35m
    Miliband won't call for intervention in Iraq till he thinks it's politically safe. Cameron won't till EM does. Leadership. Britain. 2014.

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me....
    We are already intervening in iraq. The US ar bombing on behalf of the Iraqi govt. We are supporting them. Should we imitate Israel and bomb anything that moves?
    Its ultimately up to the iraqi govt to defend their own country and replacing the current PM who has been overtly sectarian is a good start for them... an essential one.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,005
    Mr. Flightpath, has Maliki actually gone, though?
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    No interest in markets where the bet may be tied up for 5+ years...

    I've stuck £30 on Andy Burnham.
    It would have been better sent on Help for Heroes, you would get more satisfaction out of that in the end.

    Or better still COMBAT STRESS.

    Not every person in the armed forces who has been damaged by fighting was a hero.
    Most people are simply doing their job. I'm willing to allow a bit of aliteration. They are all heroes in a broad sense.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    Hugh said:

    Anyone know if there's a particular reason we're dropping solar lamps rather than, I dunno, food and shelter and stuff...?

    On Monday night, RAF crews dropped supplies including 3,180 reusable water purification containers containing a total of 15,900 litres of clean water, and 816 solar lamps that can also be used to charge mobile phones.

    The first drop took place on Saturday, delivering 1,200 water containers and 240 solar lanterns.

    By solar lamps I assume you mean some sport of light which is powered up by solar power in the day and gives out light at night. If so than it use seems self evident.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    taffys said:

    ''guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.'

    Fair enough, point taken, but 2008 was six years ago, Mr Mike K.

    I couldn't find anything on UKIP's website on what official policy is now, however, on Gaza/Syria/Iraq etc. Or even on ISIS flags in Poplar. Or on arming kurds etc.

    These people are foreign and far worse dusky skinned. UKIPs standing policy on this is to have a 3 minute hate every day.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    MikeK said:

    http://www.ukip.org/ukip_home_affairs_spokesman_diane_james_calls_verdict_ominous

    European Court of Human Rights gets a pasting from Diane James.

    Seems a reasonable verdict to me. Yes they ought to have the vote, no they can’t claim the money for the case.
    Memory always plays me false but it tells me that the ruling was not that prisoners should have the vote but that a blanket ban on all prisoners voting was wrong. I can't think why but there it is.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,062

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    The real Hodges on Dave & Ed's leadership

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges · 35m
    Miliband won't call for intervention in Iraq till he thinks it's politically safe. Cameron won't till EM does. Leadership. Britain. 2014.

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me....
    We are already intervening in iraq. The US ar bombing on behalf of the Iraqi govt. We are supporting them. Should we imitate Israel and bomb anything that moves?
    Its ultimately up to the iraqi govt to defend their own country and replacing the current PM who has been overtly sectarian is a good start for them... an essential one.
    You mean like the Marsh Arabs in 1991?

    We are entering, in the words of the man, a new paradigm. We have the Islamic State intent on recreating the caliphate in a manner which would have been familiar in Hannibal's time; we have Alawite Assad fighting Sunnis (and I'm with @JosiasJessop‌ on this one in terms of intervention way back when); and we have at the same time the legacy of Labour who have poisoned the concept of intervention for generations to come.

    Unless you think we should never intervene (a perfectly understandable position) in which case it is craven to voice the platitude "it's up to them to sort it out".
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    taffys said:

    ''guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.'

    Fair enough, point taken, but 2008 was six years ago, Mr Mike K.

    I couldn't find anything on UKIP's website on what official policy is now, however, on Gaza/Syria/Iraq etc. Or even on ISIS flags in Poplar. Or on arming kurds etc.

    These people are foreign and far worse dusky skinned. UKIPs standing policy on this is to have a 3 minute hate every day.
    If I go and look at UKIPs web site, will I find on a policy on the 3 minute hate? Could it be you are just giving voice to your own prejudices?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited August 2014
    I don't really understand what "intervention" in Iraq would actually achieve. Is it even possible to stop ISIS? Wouldn't any "intervention" inevitably mean innocent civilians (the very people any intervention would be supposed to protect) getting caught up in the crossfire? Can we be sure that the alternative who'd fill the void if ISIS were beaten wouldn't turn out to be as bad or even worse? (After all, we all thought it couldn't get worse than al-Qaeda until ISIS came along...)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,591
    edited August 2014

    taffys said:

    ''guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.'

    Fair enough, point taken, but 2008 was six years ago, Mr Mike K.

    I couldn't find anything on UKIP's website on what official policy is now, however, on Gaza/Syria/Iraq etc. Or even on ISIS flags in Poplar. Or on arming kurds etc.

    These people are foreign and far worse dusky skinned. UKIPs standing policy on this is to have a 3 minute hate every day.


    Sounds like good fun. Maybe we should sing the Horst Wesel Lied at the same time.

  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    @ydoethur


    Interesting post. I think Hunt has previously been against AS-Levels

    "Personally, I’d get rid of AS Levels – they've been a waste of time. You don’t need the relentless examination system; when kids leave at the age of 18, they’re 'exam trauma victims'"

    http://www.totalpolitics.com/print/298797/in-conversation-with-chris-skidmore-mp-and-tristram-hunt-mp.thtml


    So the change of tone is weird.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    Nigel Farage warned of the perils of sucking up to Islam in 2008, and guess what no one took a blind bit of notice.

    That was because of the LibLabCon conspiracy to prevent his warnings being publicised in Mosul, Qaraqosh, Tikrit, and even Baghdad. If only those foreigners had listened to Nigel, all this could have been avoided.
    You couldn't be more right!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,009
    Afternoon all :)

    Couple of thoughts - on inactivity in the Party leader's markets. Had anyone in August 1996 suggested William Hague would be the next Conservative leader, I suspect they would have been widely ridiculed. Yes, Hague could be a future leader but not yet would have been the response. The scale of the 1997 defeat, especially the loss of Portillo, and the realisation the Party faced a minimum of ten years in Opposition, gave Hague his opportunity.

    Attitudes to the armed forces - I think the change happened with the Falklands conflict. The involvement in Ulster was not viewed heroically and the forces stationed in West Germany (as it was) were a reminder of the unthinkable. The very fact they did nothing was a relief - had they been compelled to fight to defend West Germany and Western Europe from a Warsaw Pact invasion, the national mood would have been very different.

    Those who fought in the Falklands were the first in a generation to actually fight against a foreign power to defend British territory - we weren't involved in Vietnam, Suez had been a misguided disaster and Korea was a long time ago. After 1982, we had within communities and society people who had fought for us as it was portrayed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,005
    edited August 2014
    Mr. Topping, Hannibal was 3rd century BC, I believe you mean Heraclius, the excellent (and horrendously unlucky) Emperor of Byzantium in the 7th century (AD).

    Also, the 7th century Caliphate was a good deal more civilised than that of the 21st century.

    Mr. 565, normally I subscribe to the 'there's always something worse' school of thought.

    With ISIS, I'm not sure that's true.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Danny565 said:

    I don't really understand what "intervention" in Iraq would actually achieve. Is it even possible to stop ISIS? Wouldn't any "intervention" inevitably mean innocent civilians (the very people any intervention would be supposed to protect) getting caught up in the crossfire? Can we be sure that the alternative who'd fill the void if ISIS were beaten wouldn't turn out to be as bad or even worse? (After all, we all thought it couldn't get worse than al-Qaeda until ISIS came along...)

    levels of intervention in order of least damage

    1) humanitarian air drops / air lift

    2) creating safe havens for refugees by reinforcing a local friendly force

    3) various other options that usually makes things worse

    A viable UKIP line might be that UK should have the ability to do (1) and (2) on tap but doesn't because the political class suck.

    The only viable LibLabCon lines I can see are "yes we suck."

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,062
    Danny565 said:

    I don't really understand what "intervention" in Iraq would actually achieve. Is it even possible to stop ISIS? Wouldn't any "intervention" inevitably mean innocent civilians (the very people any intervention would be supposed to protect) getting caught up in the crossfire? Can we be sure that the alternative who'd fill the void if ISIS were beaten wouldn't turn out to be as bad or even worse? (After all, we all thought it couldn't get worse than al-Qaeda until ISIS came along...)

    The difficulty/tragedy is that the kind of intervention that would work in Iraq now is exactly the same one that would have worked there 10 years ago:

    hundreds of thousands of troops to subordinate, sterilise and rebuild the country within a framework of the rule of law, property rights and democratic government.

    We didn't have the will or commitment to do it then; to think that we would have it now is laughable.

    In the absence of that then perhaps a focused campaign to degrade ISIS assets? But I don't know really.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Danny565 said:

    I don't really understand what "intervention" in Iraq would actually achieve. Is it even possible to stop ISIS? Wouldn't any "intervention" inevitably mean innocent civilians (the very people any intervention would be supposed to protect) getting caught up in the crossfire? Can we be sure that the alternative who'd fill the void if ISIS were beaten wouldn't turn out to be as bad or even worse? (After all, we all thought it couldn't get worse than al-Qaeda until ISIS came along...)

    Play with you post for a bit, Mr. 565. Substitute words like Rwanda and Srebrenica for Iraq. Of course you can argue that we should allow another genocide to take place because if we try to stop it innocent people might get hurt, but I'll leave that to you and your conscience.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    taffys said:

    ''guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.'

    Fair enough, point taken, but 2008 was six years ago, Mr Mike K.

    I couldn't find anything on UKIP's website on what official policy is now, however, on Gaza/Syria/Iraq etc. Or even on ISIS flags in Poplar. Or on arming kurds etc.

    taffys said:

    ''guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.'

    Fair enough, point taken, but 2008 was six years ago, Mr Mike K.

    I couldn't find anything on UKIP's website on what official policy is now, however, on Gaza/Syria/Iraq etc. Or even on ISIS flags in Poplar. Or on arming kurds etc.

    Try twitter @UKIP, you'll find plenty on Islam and Islamism.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,062

    Mr. Topping, Hannibal was 3rd century BC, I believe you mean Heraclius, the excellent (and horrendously unlucky) Emperor of Byzantium in the 7th century (AD).

    Also, the 7th century Caliphate was a good deal more civilised than that of the 21st century.

    Oh god I knew that would happen and yes, I probably do.

    Although I used to smile (!) when, for example, in Livy one read that after one particular battle or another "...they devastated the lands.." which seems so clean and anodyne on paper whereas it was presumably quite traumatic for those being devastated...
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    I'm surprised there hasn't been a Daily Mirror equivalent of a Dan Hodges,a modernising Tory pretending they are a modernising Tory who has had enough of Cameron and is voting Labour.
    Each article starts-"This is very bad news for David Cameron....
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    I'm surprised there hasn't been a Daily Mirror equivalent of a Dan Hodges,a modernising Tory pretending they are a modernising Tory who has had enough of Cameron and is voting Labour.
    Each article starts-"This is very bad news for David Cameron....

    One Dan Hodges is enough for me
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,005
    Mr. Topping, it was the done thing for thousands of years, from the fields of Italy under Hannibal to the Black Prince's chevauchees.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Morris_Dancer
    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    MrJones said:

    TGOHF said:

    isam said:

    The real Hodges on Dave & Ed's leadership

    Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges · 35m
    Miliband won't call for intervention in Iraq till he thinks it's politically safe. Cameron won't till EM does. Leadership. Britain. 2014.

    What's Uncle Nige's view ?
    He's probably best keeping schtum and letting the news speak for him imo.

    If pushed the first thing with intervening is having something to intervene with - so that's a safe bet i'd have thought.

    Nigel Farage has been, and still is, against any intervention of UK armed forces in the Syrian civil war. No info on his position on ISIS or the position on Iraq.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    taffys said:

    ''guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.'

    Fair enough, point taken, but 2008 was six years ago, Mr Mike K.

    I couldn't find anything on UKIP's website on what official policy is now, however, on Gaza/Syria/Iraq etc. Or even on ISIS flags in Poplar. Or on arming kurds etc.

    These people are foreign and far worse dusky skinned. UKIPs standing policy on this is to have a 3 minute hate every day.
    Another left wing nutter joins PB!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,005
    Mr. Smarmeron, we haven't attacked ISIS before.

    Often a mistake is made and the reaction is to jump so far in the other direction a mistake of the exact opposite nature occurs. Do you suppose a caliphate stretching across all Syria and Iraq would stop there and not attempt further atrocity, both nearby and further afield?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    MikeK said:

    taffys said:

    ''guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.'

    Fair enough, point taken, but 2008 was six years ago, Mr Mike K.

    I couldn't find anything on UKIP's website on what official policy is now, however, on Gaza/Syria/Iraq etc. Or even on ISIS flags in Poplar. Or on arming kurds etc.

    These people are foreign and far worse dusky skinned. UKIPs standing policy on this is to have a 3 minute hate every day.
    Another left wing nutter joins PB!
    Oh, the irony!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,446

    Mr. Smarmeron, we haven't attacked ISIS before.

    Often a mistake is made and the reaction is to jump so far in the other direction a mistake of the exact opposite nature occurs. Do you suppose a caliphate stretching across all Syria and Iraq would stop there and not attempt further atrocity, both nearby and further afield?

    That's an excellent point - witness the ridiculous regulations on parents not being allowed to film nativity plays, the German's attitude to Nuclear power post Fukushima or any number of examples.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,062
    edited August 2014
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    ...snip non-heroic element of post...

    Attitudes to the armed forces - I think the change happened with the Falklands conflict. The involvement in Ulster was not viewed heroically and the forces stationed in West Germany (as it was) were a reminder of the unthinkable. The very fact they did nothing was a relief - had they been compelled to fight to defend West Germany and Western Europe from a Warsaw Pact invasion, the national mood would have been very different.

    Those who fought in the Falklands were the first in a generation to actually fight against a foreign power to defend British territory - we weren't involved in Vietnam, Suez had been a misguided disaster and Korea was a long time ago. After 1982, we had within communities and society people who had fought for us as it was portrayed.

    There was a lot of post-Falklands Ulster. The Falklands was like England winning the hockey at the Olympics - a curiosity that we could all be proud of but not paradigm-changing.

    That, I believe, happened in Iraq around 10 years ago when all of a sudden *a lot* of soldiers were away fighting. In Gulf I many people were touched but the conflict was over quickly. This time, many families have been touched by Iraq and then round 2 in Afghan. That, coupled with the instant relaying of eg. firefights set to the Kaiser Chiefs on Youtube, and all of a sudden the war invaded (!) peoples' lives in a way that no other had post-Korea. That and the hoo-hah about the Military Covenant.

    If you remember they actually did away with the Royal Tournament some years ago before having to bring back similar events to honour our "heroes".

    (Edit: after googling, The Royal Tournament was ended in 1999, while the British Military Tournament was established in 2010, and ended last year - to coincide both with the height of the "heroism" and the withdrawal of HMF from the various theatres of war.)
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Couple of thoughts - on inactivity in the Party leader's markets. Had anyone in August 1996 suggested William Hague would be the next Conservative leader, I suspect they would have been widely ridiculed. Yes, Hague could be a future leader but not yet would have been the response. The scale of the 1997 defeat, especially the loss of Portillo, and the realisation the Party faced a minimum of ten years in Opposition, gave Hague his opportunity.

    Attitudes to the armed forces - I think the change happened with the Falklands conflict. The involvement in Ulster was not viewed heroically and the forces stationed in West Germany (as it was) were a reminder of the unthinkable. The very fact they did nothing was a relief - had they been compelled to fight to defend West Germany and Western Europe from a Warsaw Pact invasion, the national mood would have been very different.

    Those who fought in the Falklands were the first in a generation to actually fight against a foreign power to defend British territory - we weren't involved in Vietnam, Suez had been a misguided disaster and Korea was a long time ago. After 1982, we had within communities and society people who had fought for us as it was portrayed.

    Within the services there was quite a lot of bad feeling at the support the Falklands wounded and disabled got compared to those who had done their duty just as well and received similar injuries in NI and elsewhere. Good luck to the guys involved, was the line of thought, but I lost my leg in a bomb in NI, or Oman, or one of a 100 trouble spots and got chucked out onto the mercy of the NHS with an old bone.

    We are getting better at looking after veterans with problems, mainly due to private charities and not HMG, but there is a long way to go and most of the problems generated by Blair's wars (I'd like that man to receive his just rewards, maybe God will oblige) are yet to materialise. If anyone has a spare few quid after a winning bet I would urge them to donate it to the Ex-Services Mental Welfare Society (recently renamed Combat Stress). They have been looking after veterans with invisible injuries for 95 years and they will use the money wisely and to a good end, I promise.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,943
    @JonathanD‌ Thanks for the link, but I'm afraid it made me even crosser (not your fault - it was what I read)! History is actually the most popular of all the 'optional' subjects by some margin - officially, it's behind English Literature and RS but as those are compulsory in many schools that's not a fair comparison.

    To suggest that it's not getting the numbers because it's badly taught or uninspiring is simply nonsensical. That could only have been said by somebody who has never investigated how it's taught. It's not getting the numbers because it's being crowded out by the likes of sociology and business studies. They are 'new' and 'different' and there's this odd feeling among teenagers (who are mostly pretty hormonal and rebellious at that stage) that they've 'done' history and would like to do something the haven't tried before (and annoy their parents by boasting about how much better these things are than boring old subjects that might actually have intellectual kudos).

    History is also about WAY more than the study of past politics (I know it was Skidmore and not Hunt that said that)! It's about the past, full stop. I always point out that the beauty of history is that it's the only subject that contains a little of every other subject - geography, maths, science, literature, sport, politics, languages...and that's arguably the best possible reason for studying it, far ahead of any Shadow Chacellor's surname about
    'transferable skills.'

    I was particularly incensed by this exchange:
    'Would you want to get superstar historians involved?
    TH: They haven’t been in a classroom for years. What’s the point?
    I’m just wondering whether certain figures have both an academic background and a public role.
    TH: Young kids like Horrible Histories. Teenagers like Dan Snow. I think these can both play a part. But Simon Schama, as much as I love him, has no idea what goes on in schools.'
    All said apparently without irony...

    Mind you, in that article as you said, he was right, both about the AS and the GCSE - but since I assume he would scrap the new, much improved GCSE as well (due for introduction in 2016) that merely proves that he's either a shameless opportunist or he has no clue what he's doing - or of course, both.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Smarmeron said:

    @Morris_Dancer
    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result.

    Like throwing a pair of dice, for instance?

    The more you think about that cliche the dumber it looks.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MikeK said:

    taffys said:

    ''guess what no one took a blind bit of notice or screamed racism.'

    Fair enough, point taken, but 2008 was six years ago, Mr Mike K.

    I couldn't find anything on UKIP's website on what official policy is now, however, on Gaza/Syria/Iraq etc. Or even on ISIS flags in Poplar. Or on arming kurds etc.

    These people are foreign and far worse dusky skinned. UKIPs standing policy on this is to have a 3 minute hate every day.
    Another left wing nutter joins PB!
    Says the chap campaigning hard to ensure Ed Miliband is PM..
  • Mr. Smarmeron, we haven't attacked ISIS before.

    Often a mistake is made and the reaction is to jump so far in the other direction a mistake of the exact opposite nature occurs. Do you suppose a caliphate stretching across all Syria and Iraq would stop there and not attempt further atrocity, both nearby and further afield?

    I was at a (very wet!) local beer festival/music festival/BBQ at the weekend with a group of friends, 3 of whom are serving in the forces, all of those 3 having done multiple tours of Iraq and Afghanistan. Their biggest worry is that we'll get sucked into some half arsed "policing action" after a limited bombing campaign has achieved nothing. They'll then have to endure years of attrition before withdrawing and leaving a vacuum again, just like the last two conflicts.
    Their view is that radical Islam is never going to be won over by softly softly hearts and minds stuff, it has to be an all out war, with occupation for decades after victory. The local population tend to just want to live in peace, with opportunities to improve life, but don't want our sort of western democracy, something that our leaders don't seem to want to acknowledge.
    My friends don't think this crisis is going to end, unless we put big, heavy boots on the ground, and lots of 'em.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Ishmael_X
    Einstein was amazingly dumb?
  • ydoethur said:

    @JonathanD‌ Thanks for the link, but I'm afraid it made me even crosser (not your fault - it was what I read)! History is actually the most popular of all the 'optional' subjects by some margin - officially, it's behind English Literature and RS but as those are compulsory in many schools that's not a fair comparison.

    To suggest that it's not getting the numbers because it's badly taught or uninspiring is simply nonsensical. That could only have been said by somebody who has never investigated how it's taught. It's not getting the numbers because it's being crowded out by the likes of sociology and business studies. They are 'new' and 'different' and there's this odd feeling among teenagers (who are mostly pretty hormonal and rebellious at that stage) that they've 'done' history and would like to do something the haven't tried before (and annoy their parents by boasting about how much better these things are than boring old subjects that might actually have intellectual kudos).

    History is also about WAY more than the study of past politics (I know it was Skidmore and not Hunt that said that)! It's about the past, full stop. I always point out that the beauty of history is that it's the only subject that contains a little of every other subject - geography, maths, science, literature, sport, politics, languages...and that's arguably the best possible reason for studying it, far ahead of any Shadow Chacellor's surname about
    'transferable skills.'

    I was particularly incensed by this exchange:

    'Would you want to get superstar historians involved?
    TH: They haven’t been in a classroom for years. What’s the point?
    I’m just wondering whether certain figures have both an academic background and a public role.
    TH: Young kids like Horrible Histories. Teenagers like Dan Snow. I think these can both play a part. But Simon Schama, as much as I love him, has no idea what goes on in schools.'
    All said apparently without irony...

    Mind you, in that article as you said, he was right, both about the AS and the GCSE - but since I assume he would scrap the new, much improved GCSE as well (due for introduction in 2016) that merely proves that he's either a shameless opportunist or he has no clue what he's doing - or of course, both.

    History and chemistry were my two favourite subjects at school. But I chose to do three sciences at A-level.
  • O/T

    Has Shadsy's bonus gone up in smoke?

    This morning The Daily Telegraph reported that:

    " Not much of a Glorious Twelfth for Richard Glynn at Ladbrokes. The chief executive was shooting for interims that proved his turnaround plans were paying off but today's results - which show first half pre-tax profits have halved - could put him in the firing line instead. The bookmaker has reported pre-tax profits of £27.7m, down from £55.1m last year, despite insisting that it had a "good World Cup." The bookmaker had warned that its interim results would miss their targets after a digital overhaul at the business which took longer than expected to implement. Today Ladbrokes has said that the focus on operational improvements meant that "financial performance would inevitably lag behind."

    The Magic Sign is on the point of being overtaken in terms of market capitalisation by Betfair - who'd have thought that was possible even a couple of years ago?

    Maybe Shadsy should move to Betfair and show them how to offer a decent range of political markets.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,005
    Mr. Stopper, cheers for that post.

    Boots on the ground would depend on the US, but Obama will never go for that.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Smarmeron said:

    @Ishmael_X
    Einstein was amazingly dumb?

    No. He also never said that (google for evidence that he did if you think otherwise), and would never have said anything as dumb as that, being as how he spent quite a lot of time thinking about randomness.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,785

    MikeK said:

    http://www.ukip.org/ukip_home_affairs_spokesman_diane_james_calls_verdict_ominous

    European Court of Human Rights gets a pasting from Diane James.

    Seems a reasonable verdict to me. Yes they ought to have the vote, no they can’t claim the money for the case.
    Memory always plays me false but it tells me that the ruling was not that prisoners should have the vote but that a blanket ban on all prisoners voting was wrong. I can't think why but there it is.
    You are correct. Mea culpa. However, still seems a reasonable verdict.

    Incidentally, if a prisoner is released on licence, or a tag, does he or she recover the right to vote?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pulpstar said:

    Peter Davies not contesting Doncaster for UKIP is one less worry for Ed bettors.

    Patrick O'Flynn ? that would be a cracking death match.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Mr. Smarmeron, we haven't attacked ISIS before.

    Often a mistake is made and the reaction is to jump so far in the other direction a mistake of the exact opposite nature occurs. Do you suppose a caliphate stretching across all Syria and Iraq would stop there and not attempt further atrocity, both nearby and further afield?

    My friends don't think this crisis is going to end, unless we put big, heavy boots on the ground, and lots of 'em.

    Seems about right. It's crazy to think that the whole cultural attitude of a country will be changed by just a few years of Westerners keeping the peace. It would take a whole generation for any real change to occur. After all, the US still have troops in Germany and Japan 70 years after the War.

    What must be truly sad for any American family who lost a member in North Iraq during the 2006-2010 surge is that their death now counts for nothing as there will be no way to rebuild the communities that have been forced apart.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Wars are not random, and history shows that they all lead to another war eventually, Repeating them endlessly seem pretty dumb to me.
    (I give you that misquote though)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,446
    Journalist of the year award ?

    Medyan Dairieh has gone and embedded himself with ISIS - www.vicenews.com is releasing the documentary in 5 parts it seems.

    I won't link here as there are gruesome images in the videos, but bloody hell give that man a medal for embedding himself with those psychos. Whatever he's earnt from doing this it isn't enough.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited August 2014
    The way British governments have treated suffering wounded ex-servicemen has been an ongoing tragedy since Waterloo and probably beyond that.

    While hospital and nursing services improved immeasurably over the years for serving personnel, the ex servicemen was left to fend for himself immediately on discharge. Pensions were and are abysmally low and the NHS were not competent to deal with battle stress illnesses.

    It's only now that special units are being set up to treat ex-servicemen suffering from all sorts of disorders, be it for amputees, plastic surgery or psychological stress. However it is still vague who will take charge of these units, military or civilian
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    For me the paradigm shift in support for our armed forces occurred in 1980 with the ending of the Iranian embassy siege.

    That event, coming at the time when Britain was the sick man of Europe, had an incredible effect on the morale of the country, and engendered an almost fanatical respect for the armed forces which exists to this day.

    Who dares wins became the motto of the man who symbolised the 80s in Britain more than any other - Del Boy Trotter.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,005
    Mr. Pulpstar, quite. Immense bravery on show there (bordering on madness).

    Mr. Smarmeron, lots of wars are random, happen over misunderstandings or are intended to be very small and become far more prolonged. The Third Punic War was meant to be over very swiftly and lasted a few years. Alp Arslan did not want war with Byzantium but was forced into it by circumstance (and it led to a crippling strategic defeat for the empire).

    It also takes one to make war, and two to make peace.
This discussion has been closed.