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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » My 7-1 and 10-1 bets that Cameron will be the first leader

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  • LogicalSongLogicalSong Posts: 120
    The PB climate change skeptics are at it again.

    A major study of nearly 12,000 peer-reviewed papers in the climate-science literature has – again – proven that among climate scientists, an overwhelming percentage agree with the consensus view that human activity causes global warming.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/17/survey_of_scientific_opinion_of_global_warming/

    See the climate myths debunked here::
    http://skepticalscience.com/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,301
    JackW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @mrjones

    As you've just accused me of lying, presumably you'd want to place a bet on the veracity of those numbers.

    Robert - What of energy costs in North Carolina ?!?

    If I recall correctly, at about 8 cents per kwh, West Virginia is the cheapest place to get unsubsidised electricity in the world... I don't know about North Carolina, but can check for you when I get back to the office
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @JohnO

    Nice of them to include a photo of your riverside pad too!
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    mark gregory ‏@MarkGregoryEY
    Boost to housing market will drive inflation - RPI to go over 4% by 2016 according to latest EYITEM forecast http://bit.ly/160CaKa #ITEM
    .

    Maybe it's my eyesight, but I failed to find the bit where the ITEM club say 'incompetent fop thinks he's a master strategist but is stoking a boom which will drive inflation to over 4%'. Instead I find (apologies again for bringing facts in):

    The external drivers behind the return of inflation include higher commodity prices, especially food and energy, and rising prices of manufactured goods imported from emerging markets. While these pressures should ease slightly this year, with the recent fall in global oil prices gradually feeding through to petrol prices at the pumps, the outlook for 2014 and beyond is uncertain. For example, the trend of rising prices of imported goods from emerging markets is likely to continue, with China in particular set to see sustained upward pressure on wage growth as the expansion in its domestic labour supply slows down.

    Domestic factors

    Domestic inflationary drivers include administered and regulated prices, such as domestic energy prices and university tuition fees. While domestic inflationary pressures will ease slightly this year, tuition fees will continue to add 0.4% a year to the CPI until late 2015, compounded by forthcoming rises in rail fares and by higher gas & electricity prices, (as suppliers’ costs are increased by the need to comply with climate change targets).


    In any case, an inflation forecast three years ahead is certainly going to be wrong.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    rcs1000 said:

    @mrjones

    As you've just accused me of lying, presumably you'd want to place a bet on the veracity of those numbers.

    I didn't accuse you of anything. You might believe those figures are correct and tell the whole story.

    Either way the figures you gave are irrelevant to my original point.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited May 2013
    @AnotherDave

    "During the general election campaign I think the massive increase in the national debt is going to be an issue. Square one would be an improvement."

    Given that you're a smart fellow - surely you can see that the national debt will rise until we spend less than our outgoings.

    That Labour were spending £4 for every £3 we earned - and Osborne has paired this down by so far to about £3.60 for every £3 - that means we are still growing our overall debts.

    Anyone who uses a credit card or overdraft knows that spending more than you earn increases your debts. When HMG spends less than we earn in taxes - and right now that's about 8yrs away - then the national debt will start to fall.

    I assume that you are merely pretending that potential Labour voters are too stupid to realise this basic grasp of wage packet vs spending.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    edited May 2013
    Neil said:

    @JohnO

    Nice of them to include a photo of your riverside pad too!

    And entirely funded by winnings from tim! I love him to bits.

  • GloucesterOldSpotGloucesterOldSpot Posts: 50
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    The Times of London ‏@thetimes
    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time http://thetim.es/18XvI5n

    What we need most of all in this country is an incompetent chum of Cameron's stoking up house prices with taxpayer subsidies.

    None of which is anything to do with Osborne's programme. It is driven by instability in other markets, devaluation and limited supply in prime areas.

    Moreover, Osborne's plan will have minimal effect in London as it is capped at £600,000. It's going to be more use in the rest of the country where house prices have performed significantly less well.

    The important thing, however, is that it is only a temporary measure and allowed to expire when the sunset comes into play

    You don't appear to have understood the term "average"

    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time

    The real genius of Osborne's plan is that it applies to remortgaging, has schemes that apply to buy to let and that the taxpayer also gets to pick up the tab for massive increases in housing benefit in London as rents are forced up.
    Oink! Oink! Oink!

    Asking prices for properties on the market:

    1 House in Eaton Square = £75,000,000
    75 2 bedroom flats @ £333,000 = £24,975,000

    Average asking price per property = £1,315,000

    When the top end market in London is more liquid than the broad market you will get silly average prices quoted in the press to sensationalise non-existent house price inflation.

    Consult the ONS House Price Index and you will see a weighted average contract prices for a representative basket of properties in London. This shows London house price inflation is only marginally ahead of the rest of the country with an average mix-adjusted price of just under £400,000.

    As the Osborne FLS schemes are capped at £600,000, and therefore exclude higher priced London properties, their inflationary impact - if any - on will be to narrow the gap between regional and London and South East house price increases.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Mr. Song, welcome to pb.com.

    Consensus doesn't matter. Even if 99% agree, if the 1% is right then the 1% is right. Science isn't a popularity contest. The very fact one side is trying to claim consensus as an argument in its favour makes me quite dubious. If science can stand on evidence then it should, and if it can't then saying "But people agree with me!" is no argument at all.

    In addition, I'm amused by the use of 'sceptic' as an attack line. Everybody should be sceptical. That's the starting point of rational thinking. The alternative is to be credulous.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,962
    Plato said:

    For the first time in 20yrs - I didn't watch Eurovision - Bonnie Tyler on top of Englebert were just too much for me to endure.

    This however made me LOL as its so right.

    Cameron Yarde Jnr @CameronYardeJnr
    In my quest to become BBC1 Controller I have various proposals. My latest is to ask Right Said Fred to represent the UK at Eurovision.

    I would go for Depeche Mode!

    :)
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    The PB climate change skeptics are at it again.

    A major study of nearly 12,000 peer-reviewed papers in the climate-science literature has – again – proven that among climate scientists, an overwhelming percentage agree with the consensus view that human activity causes global warming.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/17/survey_of_scientific_opinion_of_global_warming/

    See the climate myths debunked here::
    http://skepticalscience.com/

    If even the EU is giving up i think that just leaves the UK.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Plato said:

    @AnotherDave

    "During the general election campaign I think the massive increase in the national debt is going to be an issue. Square one would be an improvement."

    Given that you're a smart fellow - surely you can see that the national debt will rise until we spend less than our outgoings.

    That Labour were spending £4 for every £3 we earned - and Osborne has paired this down by so far to about £3.60 for every £3 - that means we are still growing our overall debts.

    Anyone who uses a credit card or overdraft knows that spending more than you earn increases your debts. When HMG spends less than we earn in taxes - and right now that's about 8yrs away - then the national debt will start to fall.

    I assume that you are merely pretending that potential Labour voters are too stupid to realise this basic grasp of wage packet vs spending.

    Mr Osborne hasn't done any paring. All the deficit reduction has been increased taxation.

    The priority, the purpose of this coalition, was to be addressing the budget deficit. Yet come the election, we'll find out that this has not been the priority of the gov't. That the problem has been largely ignored.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    The Times of London ‏@thetimes
    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time http://thetim.es/18XvI5n

    What we need most of all in this country is an incompetent chum of Cameron's stoking up house prices with taxpayer subsidies.

    None of which is anything to do with Osborne's programme. It is driven by instability in other markets, devaluation and limited supply in prime areas.

    Moreover, Osborne's plan will have minimal effect in London as it is capped at £600,000. It's going to be more use in the rest of the country where house prices have performed significantly less well.

    The important thing, however, is that it is only a temporary measure and allowed to expire when the sunset comes into play

    You don't appear to have understood the term "average"

    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time

    The real genius of Osborne's plan is that it applies to remortgaging, has schemes that apply to buy to let and that the taxpayer also gets to pick up the tab for massive increases in housing benefit in London as rents are forced up.
    I suspect that I have a far better understanding of the specific dynamics of the London property market that you do. Companies I am on the Board of invest in residential, retail, commercial and trophy segments within the market.
    I realise your family will have been involved in every segment of the economy for 8000 years, still doesn't help you understand what an average is, or that BTL landlords are having taxpayer subsidies being thrown at them.



    ...My point - which you have entirely missed - is that there is no "london property market". There is super-prime / prime (driven by international buyers), the central flat market (driven by BTL) and the rest (where this scheme may impact - but where the average price is far lower than £500K).....
    I refuse to believe that prices in Streatham - which was not posh enough for a social worker living in Bromley to move to 16 years ago - are driven by international buyers, and yet houses are being priced there at a million pounds today.

    We have a problem and Osborne's policy will make things worse. Yay.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    tim said:

    mark gregory ‏@MarkGregoryEY
    Boost to housing market will drive inflation - RPI to go over 4% by 2016 according to latest EYITEM forecast http://bit.ly/160CaKa #ITEM
    .

    Maybe it's my eyesight, but I failed to find the bit where the ITEM club say 'incompetent fop thinks he's a master strategist but is stoking a boom which will drive inflation to over 4%'. Instead I find (apologies again for bringing facts in):

    The external drivers behind the return of inflation include higher commodity prices, especially food and energy, and rising prices of manufactured goods imported from emerging markets. While these pressures should ease slightly this year, with the recent fall in global oil prices gradually feeding through to petrol prices at the pumps, the outlook for 2014 and beyond is uncertain. For example, the trend of rising prices of imported goods from emerging markets is likely to continue, with China in particular set to see sustained upward pressure on wage growth as the expansion in its domestic labour supply slows down.

    Domestic factors

    Domestic inflationary drivers include administered and regulated prices, such as domestic energy prices and university tuition fees. While domestic inflationary pressures will ease slightly this year, tuition fees will continue to add 0.4% a year to the CPI until late 2015, compounded by forthcoming rises in rail fares and by higher gas & electricity prices, (as suppliers’ costs are increased by the need to comply with climate change targets).


    In any case, an inflation forecast three years ahead is certainly going to be wrong.

    Richard,

    I assume the reason for the increase in RPI, is that the housing component of RPI is based on 'mortgage interest payments' and not house prices. As interest rates rise then we will see an increase in RPI, irrespective of house price movement. That's why we saw a negative RPI value in 2008/2009 when interest rates were cut so drastically.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    For the first time in 20yrs - I didn't watch Eurovision - Bonnie Tyler on top of Englebert were just too much for me to endure.

    This however made me LOL as its so right.

    Cameron Yarde Jnr @CameronYardeJnr
    In my quest to become BBC1 Controller I have various proposals. My latest is to ask Right Said Fred to represent the UK at Eurovision.

    I would go for Depeche Mode!

    :)
    If RSF weren't available - I'd suggest Erasure. A strong gay preference would give us a chance against the bloc vote contingent. I never expect us to win, but Bonnie and Englebert were just desperate - and deliberately doomed to fail IMO.

    There are loads of acts who'd love to have a go - stick it on a website with videos and let the public vote for it if the BBC can't be bothered to even try to do it adequately.

    If Pudsey the dancing dog can storm BGT and the USA, we can manage better than 19th at EUVision. Even if Pudsey sang we'd do better than Bonnie.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2013
    rcs1000 said:

    JackW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @mrjones

    As you've just accused me of lying, presumably you'd want to place a bet on the veracity of those numbers.

    Robert - What of energy costs in North Carolina ?!?

    If I recall correctly, at about 8 cents per kwh, West Virginia is the cheapest place to get unsubsidised electricity in the world... I don't know about North Carolina, but can check for you when I get back to the office
    Thank you Robert.

    I always feel whilst on PB that North Carolina should feature in our discussions.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012
    ah me, just like dinner parties in the '80s, every discussion comes round to house prices eventually.

    The Streatham £1m house isn't difficult to understand - same as every other periphery £1m house. Families work in but can't afford specifically houses in central London so find the least bad area where there are still houses. Hence Balham, Streatham, Acton, etc.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    tim said:

    Mark Wallace ‏@wallaceme 10m
    Sky News have the former Chairman of Merton Conservatives, now a UKIPper, live on air now...

    Mark Wallace ‏@wallaceme 9m
    Merton defector says he and his colleagues who left the Conservatives last week were convinced to join UKIP by the swivel-eyed loons reports

    You mean they wanted to join such a party.

    Case closed.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    TOPPING said:

    ah me, just like dinner parties in the '80s, every discussion comes round to house prices eventually.

    The Streatham £1m house isn't difficult to understand - same as every other periphery £1m house. Families work in but can't afford specifically houses in central London so find the least bad area where there are still houses. Hence Balham, Streatham, Acton, etc.

    The thing is my parents were a primary school teacher and a government Mathematician who once shook the hand of Michael Heseltine.

    Well-off by most people's standards, but not £1m house well-off. Everyone is being priced a rung or two down the ladder because prices have gone so mad.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And the madness continues - seriously what are these people on?

    An ex-soldier who painted a St George’s flag on his front door was ordered to cover it up by his landlords who claim it could be considered 'offensive' and may bring 'distress' to neighbours.

    Steven Rolfe, 52, painted the red and white colours of the English flag upon on his rented home in Preston, Lancashire, in 2003. He also said he put up hanging baskets to celebrate his love of England and mark his former career in the forces.

    But despite being runner-up in a council 'best kept house' competition, he has now received a letter ten years on from an official at property management firm Places for People saying neighbours could be 'alarmed' by the symbol.

    The letter also warned the design could place him in a catagory of 'nuisance neighbours' and said it could mean him being evicted if he failed to cover it up. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2327441/Steven-Rolfe-Ex-soldier-told-repaint-St-Georges-flag-door-housing-association-deemed-offensive-distressing.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Mr. Song, welcome to pb.com.

    Consensus doesn't matter. Even if 99% agree, if the 1% is right then the 1% is right. Science isn't a popularity contest. The very fact one side is trying to claim consensus as an argument in its favour makes me quite dubious. If science can stand on evidence then it should, and if it can't then saying "But people agree with me!" is no argument at all.

    In addition, I'm amused by the use of 'sceptic' as an attack line. Everybody should be sceptical. That's the starting point of rational thinking. The alternative is to be credulous.

    Mr Dancer, peer reivew has long been a bedrock of the scientific method.

    You are also confusing the process of science itself, and policy-making and public interpretation of science.

    The science itself is based on the publication of papers that are then peer-reviewed to assess whether it does stand up.

    When it comes to non-scientists interpreting science, then the outcome of this peer review process is a very strong argument.

    Saying 99% of climate scientists agree the evidence says X about the climate, is an excellent argument X is true.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    @Richard.

    We could always have a bet on house prices.

    I'd offer Charles but the prospect of reading 10,000 words about "evaluating the metric" of the bet and still ending up with "no" are more than I can stomach.

    I'm already plenty exposed to the London property market, thank you. So no.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012

    TOPPING said:

    ah me, just like dinner parties in the '80s, every discussion comes round to house prices eventually.

    The Streatham £1m house isn't difficult to understand - same as every other periphery £1m house. Families work in but can't afford specifically houses in central London so find the least bad area where there are still houses. Hence Balham, Streatham, Acton, etc.

    The thing is my parents were a primary school teacher and a government Mathematician who once shook the hand of Michael Heseltine.

    Well-off by most people's standards, but not £1m house well-off. Everyone is being priced a rung or two down the ladder because prices have gone so mad.
    And let me guess that was before 1987 and "Big Bang".

    When your banker, like your doctor or, yes, (head) teacher was just another professional who offered you services. That was before the American banks (to start with) began buying up UK stockbrokers and all of a sudden investment bankers were born. With investment banker salaries and needing somewhere to live. That was the genesis of this ridiculous (London) house price inflation, since when other factors have also come into play.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @Plato

    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    The Times of London ‏@thetimes
    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time http://thetim.es/18XvI5n

    What we need most of all in this country is an incompetent chum of Cameron's stoking up house prices with taxpayer subsidies.

    None of which is anything to do with Osborne's programme. It is driven by instability in other markets, devaluation and limited supply in prime areas.

    Moreover, Osborne's plan will have minimal effect in London as it is capped at £600,000. It's going to be more use in the rest of the country where house prices have performed significantly less well.

    The important thing, however, is that it is only a temporary measure and allowed to expire when the sunset comes into play

    You don't appear to have understood the term "average"

    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time

    The real genius of Osborne's plan is that it applies to remortgaging, has schemes that apply to buy to let and that the taxpayer also gets to pick up the tab for massive increases in housing benefit in London as rents are forced up.
    I suspect that I have a far better understanding of the specific dynamics of the London property market that you do. Companies I am on the Board of invest in residential, retail, commercial and trophy segments within the market.
    I realise your family will have been involved in every segment of the economy for 8000 years, still doesn't help you understand what an average is, or that BTL landlords are having taxpayer subsidies being thrown at them.



    ...My point - which you have entirely missed - is that there is no "london property market". There is super-prime / prime (driven by international buyers), the central flat market (driven by BTL) and the rest (where this scheme may impact - but where the average price is far lower than £500K).....
    I refuse to believe that prices in Streatham - which was not posh enough for a social worker living in Bromley to move to 16 years ago - are driven by international buyers, and yet houses are being priced there at a million pounds today.

    We have a problem and Osborne's policy will make things worse. Yay.
    I looked pretty seriously at buying a place in Streatham in the late 90s. In value terms (from memory) it was a choice between £300K for a 4 bedroom house with a great garden in Streatham or a 2.5 bedroom boxy flat in Chelsea. Ended up going to the flat because there were strategic benefits as well.

    It's the spillover effect that matters. a 4 bedroom house in Kensington is now £5m+. That has driven house prices in Bayswater to £4m as people who can't afford Kensington are driven to the next door areas. That trend ripples throughout London - hence the price rises in Streatham.

    From memory, one of the top London agents said recently that 70% of his buyers in the P/SP market are international nowadays. The Brits who used to live in these areas (and when I was growing up Phillimore Estate was architect & doctors - good professionals, but not multimillionaires) have no live somewhere, so they compete for the next most nice areas and so on.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    JackW said:

    @Plato

    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!

    And say what? Landlord brings out the contract saying that he needs permission to do more or less anything to the outside of the property, Mr Rolfe is sent a consolatory invoice from his lawyer.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012
    Neville Neville?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    @GloucesterOldSpot

    Here's the price changes by borough in London.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/html/bg.stm#table

    The idea that house price inflation is solely in the international market is beyond stupid

    Sure it's beyond stupid. That's why no one has claimed that it is.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    For the first time in 20yrs - I didn't watch Eurovision - Bonnie Tyler on top of Englebert were just too much for me to endure.

    This however made me LOL as its so right.

    Cameron Yarde Jnr @CameronYardeJnr
    In my quest to become BBC1 Controller I have various proposals. My latest is to ask Right Said Fred to represent the UK at Eurovision.

    I would go for Depeche Mode!

    :)
    If RSF weren't available - I'd suggest Erasure. A strong gay preference would give us a chance against the bloc vote contingent. I never expect us to win, but Bonnie and Englebert were just desperate - and deliberately doomed to fail IMO.

    There are loads of acts who'd love to have a go - stick it on a website with videos and let the public vote for it if the BBC can't be bothered to even try to do it adequately.

    If Pudsey the dancing dog can storm BGT and the USA, we can manage better than 19th at EUVision. Even if Pudsey sang we'd do better than Bonnie.
    Therre must be plenty of talent in the also rans of The Voice? As its a BBC show, maybe that could be a consolation prize?

    Although it reminds me of the joke, 1st prize in a competition = a weeks holiday in Southend, 2nd prize= 2 weeks holiday in Southend...



  • GloucesterOldSpotGloucesterOldSpot Posts: 50
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    @GloucesterOldSpot

    Here's the price changes by borough in London.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/html/bg.stm#table

    The idea that house price inflation is solely in the international market is beyond stupid

    By the BBC's own admission the figures are unadjusted ("The figures are not adjusted for seasonal variations and other possible effects on the housing market.").

    They are based on sales recorded by the Land Registry in each borough (for London) per quarter. Even the "very, very stupid" will have noticed that prices increasing annually by 8.5% but falling quarterly by 12.1% in a single borough (RBKC) are unlikely to be representative of a true trend.

    Once again may I refer you to the ONS House Price Index where the appropriate adjustments are made to give a realistic assessment of true trends.

    You may also find the recently released explanatory notes on the ONS Index useful: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/hpi/house-price-index-guidance/official-house-price-statistics-explained/index.html

    The guidance is simple and written in plain English and should therefore not present a barrier to comprehension even to the "very, very, very stupid".
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Across England and Wales, police are looking into at least 54 more grooming gangs:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-probe-least-54-more-1896991
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    tim said:

    JackW said:



    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!

    I doubt he has a leg to stand on, it's a simple story of a tenant not getting permission for painting the outside of his house contrary to his tenancy agreement.
    Fools will fall for the St.George Flag spin as they did with last weeks flag purchasing story.

    10 years to enforce a tenancy agreement and after coming runner-up in a council run competition that defacto endorsed the flag door.

    When will Labour councils realize that Britains national flags are not "offensive" or that those "alarmed" by the rational use of our flags need to get a life !!

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JackW said:

    @Plato

    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!

    Precisely. I just can't fathom what these numpties think they're achieving. It's the national flag of England that has over 50m residents. I have a St George flag in my garden and have done for a decade - if anyone told me to take it down, they'd have kitties to answer to :^ )
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Socrates said:

    Across England and Wales, police are looking into at least 54 more grooming gangs:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-probe-least-54-more-1896991

    I feel ill. That's just dreadful - even 10% of that number is sickening.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013
    tim said:
    Oh the disappointment for all when the councillor defecting to UKIP turns out to be a young, articulate, supporter of gay marriage...

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2013
    corporeal said:

    JackW said:

    @Plato

    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!

    And say what? Landlord brings out the contract saying that he needs permission to do more or less anything to the outside of the property, Mr Rolfe is sent a consolatory invoice from his lawyer.
    I refer the Honourable PBer to the answer I gave a moment ago.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Merton defector spokesman attacking chumocracy

    Nigel Farage reminds me of a corporate raider taking over a much bigger company with not much more than his own chutzpah.

    In some senses, he's like the T Boone Pickens (or even Gordon Gekko?) of politics....
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    sam said:

    tim said:
    Oh the disappointment for all when the councillor defecting to UKIP turns out to be a young, articulate, supporter of gay marriage...

    When will they be expelled ??

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Mother of two of the Oxford grooming perpetrators said that her sons had done nothing wrong, it was the victims who are promiscuous and having sex from age 10, and that young Muslim girls focus on study instead:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2326976/Mother-Oxford-sex-gang-pair-blames-victims-She-says-schoolgirls-playing-toys.html

    Right there is a very vivid depiction of the culture and mindset within parts of the Muslim community that is causing this thing.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    SeanT said:

    What's that? I've done another Telegraph blog?

    Why yes, good sir. Here it is:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100217822/revealed-how-david-cameron-and-his-bullingdon-chums-will-win-the-next-general-election/

    pb-ers may recognise the odd phrase.

    Ha,ha. I liked that piece when it first appeared here on PB. Here below is another blog from a UKIP angle pondering the same thing:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelheaver/100217782/the-real-swivel-eyed-loons-are-inside-number-10/
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    sam said:

    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    For the first time in 20yrs - I didn't watch Eurovision - Bonnie Tyler on top of Englebert were just too much for me to endure.

    This however made me LOL as its so right.

    Cameron Yarde Jnr @CameronYardeJnr
    In my quest to become BBC1 Controller I have various proposals. My latest is to ask Right Said Fred to represent the UK at Eurovision.

    I would go for Depeche Mode!

    :)
    If RSF weren't available - I'd suggest Erasure. A strong gay preference would give us a chance against the bloc vote contingent. I never expect us to win, but Bonnie and Englebert were just desperate - and deliberately doomed to fail IMO.

    There are loads of acts who'd love to have a go - stick it on a website with videos and let the public vote for it if the BBC can't be bothered to even try to do it adequately.

    If Pudsey the dancing dog can storm BGT and the USA, we can manage better than 19th at EUVision. Even if Pudsey sang we'd do better than Bonnie.
    Therre must be plenty of talent in the also rans of The Voice? As its a BBC show, maybe that could be a consolation prize?

    Although it reminds me of the joke, 1st prize in a competition = a weeks holiday in Southend, 2nd prize= 2 weeks holiday in Southend...



    That's a really good idea - I've never seen The Voice and only tripped across BGT because of Mr Loony mentioning an act a year or so ago [I very rarely watch network UK TV and only on recommendation].

    I must say that BGT was very entertaining from what I saw - its perfect ITV stuff.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,763
    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    For the first time in 20yrs - I didn't watch Eurovision - Bonnie Tyler on top of Englebert were just too much for me to endure.

    This however made me LOL as its so right.

    Cameron Yarde Jnr @CameronYardeJnr
    In my quest to become BBC1 Controller I have various proposals. My latest is to ask Right Said Fred to represent the UK at Eurovision.

    I would go for Depeche Mode!

    :)
    If RSF weren't available - I'd suggest Erasure. A strong gay preference would give us a chance against the bloc vote contingent. I never expect us to win, but Bonnie and Englebert were just desperate - and deliberately doomed to fail IMO.

    There are loads of acts who'd love to have a go - stick it on a website with videos and let the public vote for it if the BBC can't be bothered to even try to do it adequately.

    If Pudsey the dancing dog can storm BGT and the USA, we can manage better than 19th at EUVision. Even if Pudsey sang we'd do better than Bonnie.
    The ridiculous thing is that Britain has everything necessary to win Eurovision except vision.

    Look at what's winning X Factor etc - The Big Voice. Think Adele. Think Leona Lewis. Think Alexandra Burke. These are what the public is voting for, which is how to win Eurovision. There is of course no chance that any of them would lower themselves to participate but *the next* (undiscovered) Adele would. That's who needs to be the representative.

    She then needs to be paired with a belting ballad - and there are plenty of good songwriters out there who just need to be given the right commission - and a good visual, where again, Britain has an abundance of talent in theatre and video creation.

    Britain won't win by looking for the next Bucks Fizz (though at least they were upbeat); Eurovision has moved on from then; the BBC has to do so too.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    tim said:

    JackW said:

    tim said:

    JackW said:



    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!

    I doubt he has a leg to stand on, it's a simple story of a tenant not getting permission for painting the outside of his house contrary to his tenancy agreement.
    Fools will fall for the St.George Flag spin as they did with last weeks flag purchasing story.

    10 years to enforce a tenancy agreement and after coming runner-up in a council run competition that defacto endorsed the flag door.

    When will Labour councils realize that Britains national flags are not "offensive" or that those "alarmed" by the rational use of our flags need to get a life !!


    Nothing to do with the council, as you'd know if you'd bothered to read it.
    Indeed so but are you suggesting the landlord was ignorant of the matter for over 3,650 days ??

    Oh gawd .... the landlord isn't the Labour party is it ?!? - Totally unaware of what's going on in social housing for over 10 years !!

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Socrates said:

    Across England and Wales, police are looking into at least 54 more grooming gangs:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-probe-least-54-more-1896991

    thousands of victims
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @david_herdson

    The lack of vision to win Eurovision? Maybe our vision is aiming a little bit higher than that?
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    JackW said:

    corporeal said:

    JackW said:

    @Plato

    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!

    And say what? Landlord brings out the contract saying that he needs permission to do more or less anything to the outside of the property, Mr Rolfe is sent a consolatory invoice from his lawyer.
    I refer the Honourable PBers to the answer I gave a moment ago.

    What about the rest of us?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366

    Leaving a possible referendum until 2017 does seem bad politics. To those keen on a referendum, it sound like kicking it into the long grass and hoping it will go away. To Europhiles, it just keeps the issue and the associated uncertainty bubbling under. It's the worst of both worlds

    Incidentally, EdM's refusal to consider one just looks like political arrogance but that's already priced in with him.

    Cameron two out of ten.
    Milliband four out of ten.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Mr Jones...

    If you read that article you learn the number is probably much higher than 54, because some police forces refused to respond to the Mirror's questions
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    For the first time in 20yrs - I didn't watch Eurovision - Bonnie Tyler on top of Englebert were just too much for me to endure.

    This however made me LOL as its so right.

    Cameron Yarde Jnr @CameronYardeJnr
    In my quest to become BBC1 Controller I have various proposals. My latest is to ask Right Said Fred to represent the UK at Eurovision.

    I would go for Depeche Mode!

    :)
    If RSF weren't available - I'd suggest Erasure. A strong gay preference would give us a chance against the bloc vote contingent. I never expect us to win, but Bonnie and Englebert were just desperate - and deliberately doomed to fail IMO.

    There are loads of acts who'd love to have a go - stick it on a website with videos and let the public vote for it if the BBC can't be bothered to even try to do it adequately.

    If Pudsey the dancing dog can storm BGT and the USA, we can manage better than 19th at EUVision. Even if Pudsey sang we'd do better than Bonnie.
    The ridiculous thing is that Britain has everything necessary to win Eurovision except vision.

    Look at what's winning X Factor etc - The Big Voice. Think Adele. Think Leona Lewis. Think Alexandra Burke. These are what the public is voting for, which is how to win Eurovision. There is of course no chance that any of them would lower themselves to participate but *the next* (undiscovered) Adele would. That's who needs to be the representative.

    She then needs to be paired with a belting ballad - and there are plenty of good songwriters out there who just need to be given the right commission - and a good visual, where again, Britain has an abundance of talent in theatre and video creation.

    Britain won't win by looking for the next Bucks Fizz (though at least they were upbeat); Eurovision has moved on from then; the BBC has to do so too.
    I couldn't agree more - I find it so irritating that the Beeboids are all into *ironic* EU kitch failure when there's acres of talent that's ignored.

    I've never taken EUvision seriously - but its a massive springboard for a talent who could do very well in Euroland for starters -wasting it on hasbeens like Englebert is just insulting.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    The Times of London ‏@thetimes
    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time http://thetim.es/18XvI5n

    What we need most of all in this country is an incompetent chum of Cameron's stoking up house prices with taxpayer subsidies.

    None of which is anything to do with Osborne's programme. It is driven by instability in other markets, devaluation and limited supply in prime areas.

    Moreover, Osborne's plan will have minimal effect in London as it is capped at £600,000. It's going to be more use in the rest of the country where house prices have performed significantly less well.

    The important thing, however, is that it is only a temporary measure and allowed to expire when the sunset comes into play

    You don't appear to have understood the term "average"

    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time

    The real genius of Osborne's plan is that it applies to remortgaging, has schemes that apply to buy to let and that the taxpayer also gets to pick up the tab for massive increases in housing benefit in London as rents are forced up.
    I suspect that I have a far better understanding of the specific dynamics of the London property market that you do. Companies I am on the Board of invest in residential, retail, commercial and trophy segments within the market.
    I realise your family will have been involved in every segment of the economy for 8000 years, still doesn't help you understand what an average is, or that BTL landlords are having taxpayer subsidies being thrown at them.



    ...My point - which you have entirely missed - is that there is no "london property market". There is super-prime / prime (driven by international buyers), the central flat market (driven by BTL) and the rest (where this scheme may impact - but where the average price is far lower than £500K).....
    I refuse to believe that prices in Streatham - which was not posh enough for a social worker living in Bromley to move to 16 years ago - are driven by international buyers, and yet houses are being priced there at a million pounds today.

    We have a problem and Osborne's policy will make things worse. Yay.
    I looked pretty seriously at buying a place in Streatham in the late 90s. In value terms (from memory) it was a choice between £300K for a 4 bedroom house with a great garden in Streatham or a 2.5 bedroom boxy flat in Chelsea. Ended up going to the flat because there were strategic benefits as well.

    It's the spillover effect that matters. a 4 bedroom house in Kensington is now £5m+. That has driven house prices in Bayswater to £4m as people who can't afford Kensington are driven to the next door areas. That trend ripples throughout London - hence the price rises in Streatham.

    From memory, one of the top London agents said recently that 70% of his buyers in the P/SP market are international nowadays. The Brits who used to live in these areas (and when I was growing up Phillimore Estate was architect & doctors - good professionals, but not multimillionaires) have no live somewhere, so they compete for the next most nice areas and so on.
    I would expect the spillover effect to work in reverse. If Osborne's Help to Buy makes it easier for someone to sell their property at £450k, it will make it easier for them to trade up, and increase price pressure at the higher price brackets, as well as those lower down.

    @Topping - Yes, before 1987.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    taffys said:

    Mr Jones...

    If you read that article you learn the number is probably much higher than 54, because some police forces refused to respond to the Mirror's questions

    yes
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    tim said:

    JackW said:

    corporeal said:

    JackW said:

    @Plato

    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!

    And say what? Landlord brings out the contract saying that he needs permission to do more or less anything to the outside of the property, Mr Rolfe is sent a consolatory invoice from his lawyer.
    I refer the Honourable PBers to the answer I gave a moment ago.


    Your previous reply was nonsense as the council aren't involved.
    The house is let by Places for People the housing association

    If you make an improvement or change your home without first getting written permission, we may tell you to return the property to how it was before. If you don’t, we could ask a court for an order to evict you.

    Nothing unusual in that is there.
    Indeed there is nothing unusual in semi-official authorities making prats of themselves or some jobsworth attempting to justify their existence.

  • NextNext Posts: 826
    tim said:

    JackW said:

    corporeal said:

    JackW said:

    @Plato

    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!

    And say what? Landlord brings out the contract saying that he needs permission to do more or less anything to the outside of the property, Mr Rolfe is sent a consolatory invoice from his lawyer.
    I refer the Honourable PBers to the answer I gave a moment ago.


    Your previous reply was nonsense as the council aren't involved.
    The house is let by Places for People the housing association

    If you make an improvement or change your home without first getting written permission, we may tell you to return the property to how it was before. If you don’t, we could ask a court for an order to evict you.

    Nothing unusual in that is there.
    The argument would be that he was asked to remove it because it was "offensive", which the housing association later recanted.

    So, there should be no reason for them not to give permission for the change to be made.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    The Times of London ‏@thetimes
    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time http://thetim.es/18XvI5n

    What we need most of all in this country is an incompetent chum of Cameron's stoking up house prices with taxpayer subsidies.

    None of which is anything to do with Osborne's programme. It is driven by instability in other markets, devaluation and limited supply in prime areas.

    Moreover, Osborne's plan will have minimal effect in London as it is capped at £600,000. It's going to be more use in the rest of the country where house prices have performed significantly less well.

    The important thing, however, is that it is only a temporary measure and allowed to expire when the sunset comes into play

    You don't appear to have understood the term "average"

    The average asking price for a home in London has broken through £500,000 for the first time

    The real genius of Osborne's plan is that it applies to remortgaging, has schemes that apply to buy to let and that the taxpayer also gets to pick up the tab for massive increases in housing benefit in London as rents are forced up.
    I suspect that I have a far better understanding of the specific dynamics of the London property market that you do. Companies I am on the Board of invest in residential, retail, commercial and trophy segments within the market.
    I realise your family will have been involved in every segment of the economy for 8000 years, still doesn't help you understand what an average is, or that BTL landlords are having taxpayer subsidies being thrown at them.



    ...My point - which you have entirely missed - is that there is no "london property market". There is super-prime / prime (driven by international buyers), the central flat market (driven by BTL) and the rest (where this scheme may impact - but where the average price is far lower than £500K).....
    I refuse to believe that prices in Streatham - which was not posh enough for a social worker living in Bromley to move to 16 years ago - are driven by international buyers, and yet houses are being priced there at a million pounds today.

    We have a problem and Osborne's policy will make things worse. Yay.
    I looked pretty seriously at buying a place in Streatham in the late 90s. In value terms (from memory) it was a choice between £300K for a 4 bedroom house with a great garden in Streatham or a 2.5 bedroom boxy flat in Chelsea. Ended up going to the flat because there were strategic benefits as well.

    It's the spillover effect that matters. a 4 bedroom house in Kensington is now £5m+. That has driven house prices in Bayswater to £4m as people who can't afford Kensington are driven to the next door areas. That trend ripples throughout London - hence the price rises in Streatham.

    From memory, one of the top London agents said recently that 70% of his buyers in the P/SP market are international nowadays. The Brits who used to live in these areas (and when I was growing up Phillimore Estate was architect & doctors - good professionals, but not multimillionaires) have no live somewhere, so they compete for the next most nice areas and so on.
    I would expect the spillover effect to work in reverse. If Osborne's Help to Buy makes it easier for someone to sell their property at £450k, it will make it easier for them to trade up, and increase price pressure at the higher price brackets, as well as those lower down.

    @Topping - Yes, before 1987.
    Issue is that in P/SP markets cash is king. Anyone with a mortgage approval - or God forbid! - a chain wouldn't get a sniff at a decent property.
  • corporeal said:

    Saying 99% of climate scientists agree the evidence says X about the climate, is an excellent argument X is true.

    However, that paper purporting to demonstrate a consensus Song cites doesn't stand up to the standards we'd expect of opinion polls.

    The online press release- http://www.iop.org/news/13/may/page_60200.html - begins with an headline grabbing claim that "an overwhelming consensus among scientists that recent warming is human-caused."

    Scroll down a few paragraphs, and the actual figures tell a different story.
    After limiting the selection to peer-reviewed climate science, the study considered 11 994 papers written by 29 083 authors in 1980 different scientific journals.

    The abstracts from these papers were randomly distributed between a team of 24 volunteers recruited through the “myth-busting” website skepticalscience.com, who used set criteria to determine the level to which the abstracts endorsed that humans are the primary cause of global warming. Each abstract was analyzed by two independent, anonymous raters.

    From the 11 994 papers, 32.6 per cent endorsed AGW, 66.4 per cent stated no position on AGW, 0.7 per cent rejected AGW and in 0.3 per cent of papers, the authors said the cause of global warming was uncertain.
    Thus, assuming the papers have been correctly characterised (and their recruitment method for volunteers might raise doubts about that), only 32.6% endorse AGW.

    Firstly, to get the headline 97%, you have to ignore the papers that take no position on AGW. If an opinion poll found 66% don't knows, 20% Labour, 10% Tories, and the rest other, would we be happy with that being cited as 59% Labour, 30% Tory result?

    Secondly, it's a percentage of papers, not a percentage of scientists. If, for any reason, pro-AGW scientists publish more papers, that would skew the results in their favour.

    At the moment, AGW probably does have majority support in the climate science community, but using questionable statistics to prove this doesn't help their case.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited May 2013
    They should go back to 2009 format when they did a urovision talent show to pick the entrants. They eventually chose Jade (big voice, big ballad by Diane Warren...not the most original entry but ok enough) who finished a good 5th in Moscow.

    The thing is that BBC would need to do some work other than picking a track from a CD


    The ridiculous thing is that Britain has everything necessary to win Eurovision except vision.

    Look at what's winning X Factor etc - The Big Voice. Think Adele. Think Leona Lewis. Think Alexandra Burke. These are what the public is voting for, which is how to win Eurovision. There is of course no chance that any of them would lower themselves to participate but *the next* (undiscovered) Adele would. That's who needs to be the representative.

    She then needs to be paired with a belting ballad - and there are plenty of good songwriters out there who just need to be given the right commission - and a good visual, where again, Britain has an abundance of talent in theatre and video creation.

    Britain won't win by looking for the next Bucks Fizz (though at least they were upbeat); Eurovision has moved on from then; the BBC has to do so too.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,962
    tim said:

    JackW said:

    corporeal said:

    JackW said:

    @Plato

    Mr Rolfe should reply with four words :

    "See you in court."

    Perhaps the government should write to the Queen and ask her to stop fly flags atop Buck House just in case Abu Hamza objects !!

    And say what? Landlord brings out the contract saying that he needs permission to do more or less anything to the outside of the property, Mr Rolfe is sent a consolatory invoice from his lawyer.
    I refer the Honourable PBers to the answer I gave a moment ago.


    Your previous reply was nonsense as the council aren't involved.
    The house is let by Places for People the housing association

    If you make an improvement or change your home without first getting written permission, we may tell you to return the property to how it was before. If you don’t, we could ask a court for an order to evict you.

    Nothing unusual in that is there.
    Utterly agree. When we rented a place in Southampton, we wanted to repaint the main bedroom from a fairly garish pink to a boring but sleep-friendly beige. The landlady said we could, but we would have to pay afterwards to have it put back to the original colour, even if we had the repaint done by professionals, and even if we had her permission.

    The wording of the contract was similar to the above with another clause about the property being returned in the condition it was rented in, bar wear and tear. She claimed that a repaint into a different colour was not wear and tear, and not the original condition. Citizen's advice advised us that it would be dangerous to risk it.

    So we ended up sleeping in a pink room for over two years.

    I think the main problem here is why it was allowed to be painted that way for so long, and yet now he is told to repaint it. Either they gave him permission back then (unlikely), or they never noticed during the inspections. I'd almost say it's been painted that way for so long that grandfather rights kick in, ;-)

    And the company were unprofessional in stating that the flag could be offensive.

    I have more sympathy for him than the company, who have come across as more than a little incompetent.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I've never taken EUvision seriously"

    Plato, it isn't an "EU" competition. Russia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Moldova, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Belarus, Norway, Iceland, Georgia, San Marino, Israel and Armenia are all in it.
  • GloucesterOldSpotGloucesterOldSpot Posts: 50
    edited May 2013
    @tim
    Your previous reply was nonsense as the council aren't involved.
    The house is let by Places for People the housing association

    If you make an improvement or change your home without first getting written permission, we may tell you to return the property to how it was before. If you don’t, we could ask a court for an order to evict you.

    Nothing unusual in that is there.
    It is the thin end of the wedge.

    What will happen now when the householder decides to place a festive wreath on his door to celebrate the coming of Christ?

    Will he be forced to revert to neutral 'Winterval' symbols?
  • "I've never taken EUvision seriously"

    Plato, it isn't an "EU" competition. Russia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Moldova, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Belarus, Norway, Iceland, Georgia, San Marino, Israel and Armenia are all in it.

    Much the same as the real EU, then.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543
    SeanT said:

    What's that? I've done another Telegraph blog?

    Why yes, good sir. Here it is:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100217822/revealed-how-david-cameron-and-his-bullingdon-chums-will-win-the-next-general-election/

    pb-ers may recognise the odd phrase.

    Likewise, though not in the Telegraph...

    http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity.

    I know *why* they do it but their arguments are rice paper thin - patriotism is equated with jingoism, nationalism with fascism/Nazis - yet this doesn't apply to PC or the SNP - just Kippers or the English/St George.

    I had a long discussion with for example Mr NPEXMP on this very subject several months ago.

    And others who denied that the British or Engish had any national culture or identity - we are all mongrels, blah blah. I find this very insulting and demeaning. No wonder Kippers are doing so well. Everyone else has an identity that must be respected bar the resident populace - WTF is the logic here?

    I am very clear about my identity as a white British/English/CoE cultural person and its just as valid as any other whatever Labour tries to annex for its own divisive identity politics ends.

    Labour are the ones who've played this game to destruction - and now Kippers are picking up their ex-voters in droves. Serves them right for trying to divide us up.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    I blame the BBC for not getting the Rolling Stones to do Eurovision. Or maybe they could get Duran Duran. Failing that I am sure David Bowie could be lured back to the UK for a shot at it. But the BBC, they just want to do Britain down. And while we're at it, what the hell are RTE doing not bringing in U2 or the Cranberries to represent Ireland?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    GloucesterOldSpot -

    "Much the same as the real EU, then."

    Answers on a postcard...
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Robert_of_Sheffield,

    "If, for any reason, pro-AGW scientists publish more papers, that would skew the results in their favour."

    You're right. And there's always a selection bias in favour of positive data. A solid paper that shows either negative results or no specific result is less likely to be submitted in the first place. Pharmaceutical companies are often accused of this fault.

    I'm still a fence-sitter on AGW. There are many possible confounding factors, and the lack of a real predictive capacity does weaken the argument a little
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity."

    "English/British"? I think you've partly answered your own question there.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    "I've never taken EUvision seriously"

    Plato, it isn't an "EU" competition. Russia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Moldova, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Belarus, Norway, Iceland, Georgia, San Marino, Israel and Armenia are all in it.

    Much the same as the real EU, then.
    When someone who has a mission to diss anything I post nit-picks over my shorthand for Eurovision - nothing has changed :^ )
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    You don't understand. We don't want to see oldies like Duran Duran and Rolling Stone. Leave them at the hospice!

    I blame the BBC for not getting the Rolling Stones to do Eurovision. Or maybe they could get Duran Duran. Failing that I am sure David Bowie could be lured back to the UK for a shot at it. But the BBC, they just want to do Britain down.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    @IsabelHardman
    So Labour's amendment is an amendment to the government's amendment. I love days like this.

    Referring of course to the same sex marriage bill. Another Cammo disaster in the making?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I blame the BBC for not getting the Rolling Stones to do Eurovision. Or maybe they could get Duran Duran. Failing that I am sure David Bowie could be lured back to the UK for a shot at it."

    They need to get out of the mindset of looking for a big-name act, and concentrate on an open, high-quality selection process for the song. Here's an article I wrote on this subject for the Eurovision Times after the Humperdinck failure last year -

    "So what that tells us is that there are different ways of succeeding (and as recent years have proved, there are also many different ways of failing). But in fact there was a very different outcome to the two 1990s approaches which had nothing whatever to do with the UK’s position on the leaderboard. When a radically different type of entry was tried in 1995, the UK may have only finished tenth, but the country’s interest in Eurovision shot up, with a dramatic increase in viewing figures. That shot in the arm continued the following year when Gina G’s Ooh Aah…Just a Little Bit (which only finished eighth in the contest itself) became the first UK entry in many, many years to reach the top of the singles chart.

    My own view is that there is nothing the BBC can do to guarantee that the UK will win – if there was a ‘silver bullet’ available then another country would already have discovered it and would be winning year after year after year. But what the BBC most certainly can control is the regard in which the contest is held at home, by ensuring that they always send a credible entry, regardless of the eventual result. The period between 1995 and 1999 (especially the first two of those years) was when they were getting it right, and the national final was transformed into a high-profile shop window for the best that the UK music industry had to offer.

    So that’s the model I hope the BBC will revert to next year – an open national selection, but with aggressive attempts made to ensure that the very best songwriters and performers throw their hats into the ring."


    http://eurovisiontimes.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/kellys-eye-how-can-the-uk-ever-win-eurovision-again/
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    sam said:

    tim said:
    Oh the disappointment for all when the councillor defecting to UKIP turns out to be a young, articulate, supporter of gay marriage...

    He and his fellow defectors were thinking of running as Independent Conservatives because they got frit at the last locals but took an excuse to join ukip to save their skins.
    He said they want a referendum this parliament. He should know that the votes in parliament are not there are not there but you can't sensibly debate with those types.

  • samsam Posts: 727

    "I blame the BBC for not getting the Rolling Stones to do Eurovision. Or maybe they could get Duran Duran. Failing that I am sure David Bowie could be lured back to the UK for a shot at it."

    They need to get out of the mindset of looking for a big-name act, and concentrate on an open, high-quality selection process for the song. Here's an article I wrote on this subject for the Eurovision Times after the Humperdinck failure last year -

    "So what that tells us is that there are different ways of succeeding (and as recent years have proved, there are also many different ways of failing). But in fact there was a very different outcome to the two 1990s approaches which had nothing whatever to do with the UK’s position on the leaderboard. When a radically different type of entry was tried in 1995, the UK may have only finished tenth, but the country’s interest in Eurovision shot up, with a dramatic increase in viewing figures. That shot in the arm continued the following year when Gina G’s Ooh Aah…Just a Little Bit (which only finished eighth in the contest itself) became the first UK entry in many, many years to reach the top of the singles chart.

    My own view is that there is nothing the BBC can do to guarantee that the UK will win – if there was a ‘silver bullet’ available then another country would already have discovered it and would be winning year after year after year. But what the BBC most certainly can control is the regard in which the contest is held at home, by ensuring that they always send a credible entry, regardless of the eventual result. The period between 1995 and 1999 (especially the first two of those years) was when they were getting it right, and the national final was transformed into a high-profile shop window for the best that the UK music industry had to offer.

    So that’s the model I hope the BBC will revert to next year – an open national selection, but with aggressive attempts made to ensure that the very best songwriters and performers throw their hats into the ring."


    http://eurovisiontimes.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/kellys-eye-how-can-the-uk-ever-win-eurovision-again/

    I suggested something similar earlier...

    The public could vote for one of the "best of the rest" on The Voice (those that are up for being the Eurovison entry)

    No need for much extra expense/another almost identical show and a new talent rather than someone in last chance saloon plus public interest almost guaranteed

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @perdix

    I always smile when I see your avatar - its the perfect mix of LoveHearts and being drunk/happy :^ )
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,628

    The PB climate change skeptics are at it again.

    A major study of nearly 12,000 peer-reviewed papers in the climate-science literature has – again – proven that among climate scientists, an overwhelming percentage agree with the consensus view that human activity causes global warming.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/17/survey_of_scientific_opinion_of_global_warming/

    See the climate myths debunked here::
    http://skepticalscience.com/

    As I have said many times before, linking to the utterly unscientific Skeptical Science blog to support any position on AGW is about as clever as linking to a UKIP site to support ones position on the EU.

    Shame we have to reteach basic lessons on evidential science every time someone new pops up on here
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    SeanT said:

    What's that? I've done another Telegraph blog?

    Why yes, good sir. Here it is:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100217822/revealed-how-david-cameron-and-his-bullingdon-chums-will-win-the-next-general-election/

    pb-ers may recognise the odd phrase.

    Not very funny but will appeal to kippers. I hope your books are of a higher standard.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    @GuidoFawkes
    BREAKING: Rooms of a Member were searched under Warrant from Preston Crown Court yesterday, Bercow reports.

    Maybe someone left an unused condom under the desk.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nick, can you explain this one to me?

    ITEM: they favour the abolition of progressive taxation: they think that millionaire bankers and schoolteachers should be taxed at exactly the same rate. This would turn the clock back to the Victorian era and plunge large numbers of people into hopeless levels of debt.

    Either (a) you are cutting the taxes of millionaire bankers (not that wealth is relevant for an income tax, but hey-ho) which won't plunge people into debt or (b) you are increasing the level of taxation for schoolteachers to levels that you are unaffordable.

    And yet you wouldn't consider reducing spending, if needed, to ensure that taxation was less burdonsome. Or that individuals might reduce their other spending to make sure that they didn't plunge into debt as a result of increased taxation.

    Moreover, you are supportive (at least your party is) of a mansion tax that bears no relation to ability to pay - and will do exactly what you consider a great evil in the quoted paragraph.

    Confused of London
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited May 2013

    Likewise, though not in the Telegraph...

    http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/

    Tut, Nick, I see history isn't your greatest strength!

    [UKIP] favour the abolition of progressive taxation: they think that millionaire bankers and schoolteachers should be taxed at exactly the same rate. This would turn the clock back to the Victorian era and plunge large numbers of people into hopeless levels of debt.

    As any fule shud no, if we turned the clock back to the Victorian era in respect of income tax, schoolteachers wouldn't pay the same as millionaire bankers: they'd pay 0%, as only the rich paid income tax in the nineteenth century. Even as late as the beginning of WWII, only one worker in five paid any income tax at all.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    corporeal said:

    Saying 99% of climate scientists agree the evidence says X about the climate, is an excellent argument X is true.

    However, that paper purporting to demonstrate a consensus Song cites doesn't stand up to the standards we'd expect of opinion polls.

    The online press release- http://www.iop.org/news/13/may/page_60200.html - begins with an headline grabbing claim that "an overwhelming consensus among scientists that recent warming is human-caused."

    Scroll down a few paragraphs, and the actual figures tell a different story.
    After limiting the selection to peer-reviewed climate science, the study considered 11 994 papers written by 29 083 authors in 1980 different scientific journals.

    The abstracts from these papers were randomly distributed between a team of 24 volunteers recruited through the “myth-busting” website skepticalscience.com, who used set criteria to determine the level to which the abstracts endorsed that humans are the primary cause of global warming. Each abstract was analyzed by two independent, anonymous raters.

    From the 11 994 papers, 32.6 per cent endorsed AGW, 66.4 per cent stated no position on AGW, 0.7 per cent rejected AGW and in 0.3 per cent of papers, the authors said the cause of global warming was uncertain.
    Thus, assuming the papers have been correctly characterised (and their recruitment method for volunteers might raise doubts about that), only 32.6% endorse AGW.

    Firstly, to get the headline 97%, you have to ignore the papers that take no position on AGW. If an opinion poll found 66% don't knows, 20% Labour, 10% Tories, and the rest other, would we be happy with that being cited as 59% Labour, 30% Tory result?

    Secondly, it's a percentage of papers, not a percentage of scientists. If, for any reason, pro-AGW scientists publish more papers, that would skew the results in their favour.

    At the moment, AGW probably does have majority support in the climate science community, but using questionable statistics to prove this doesn't help their case.

    There's a difference between a "don't know" and a "takes no position". The climate papers in question might not have addressed the question.

    For me, there's a quite clear way of assessing what is the dominant position: what the position of the national academies are. National academies are careful to take positions on stuff where their membership is split, so if they say something strongly, that says a lot about the views of their members.
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    Charles said:

    Nick, can you explain this one to me?

    ...

    Moreover, you are supportive (at least your party is) of a mansion tax that bears no relation to ability to pay - and will do exactly what you consider a great evil in the quoted paragraph.

    Confused of London
    You can accuse Labour supporters and MPs of many things.

    Being logical is not one of them.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Likewise, though not in the Telegraph...

    http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/

    Tut, Nick, I see history isn't your greatest strength!

    [UKIP] favour the abolition of progressive taxation: they think that millionaire bankers and schoolteachers should be taxed at exactly the same rate. This would turn the clock back to the Victorian era and plunge large numbers of people into hopeless levels of debt.

    As any fule shud no, if we turned the clock back to the Victorian era in respect of income tax, schoolteachers wouldn't pay the same as millionaire bankers: they'd pay 0%, as only the rich paid income tax in the nineteenth century. Even as late as the beginning of WWII, only one worker in five paid any income tax at all.
    It's also completely untrue, as Nick surely knows. The tax rate of the teacher would be considerably lower, because a larger share of their income would fall under UKIP's minimum threshold to paying income tax.

    I find Nick to be a very odd case. On here, he's virtually always honest and fair, even when he disagrees with his opponent's views. On his leaflets and website, however, he seems to engage in deliberate distortions like the rest of the political class. Remember the EU referendum, when he claimed he fundamentally believed in giving people a say? Given his later reversals, that was clearly a bald-faced lie.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    tim said:

    MikeK said:

    @GuidoFawkes
    BREAKING: Rooms of a Member were searched under Warrant from Preston Crown Court yesterday, Bercow reports.

    Maybe someone left an unused condom under the desk.


    Ribbed or Ribble?
    Probably just plain.

    Guido Fawkes ‏@GuidoFawkes 6m
    Video of Bercow/Evans announcement: http://bit.ly/12oQ7LJ
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Nick also says this on his website:

    "[UKIP] also favour joining the European Economic Area."

    Can he provide any evidence for this? I don't believe it's UKIP policy.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    The PB climate change skeptics are at it again.

    A major study of nearly 12,000 peer-reviewed papers in the climate-science literature has – again – proven that among climate scientists, an overwhelming percentage agree with the consensus view that human activity causes global warming.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/17/survey_of_scientific_opinion_of_global_warming/

    See the climate myths debunked here::
    http://skepticalscience.com/

    As I have said many times before, linking to the utterly unscientific Skeptical Science blog to support any position on AGW is about as clever as linking to a UKIP site to support ones position on the EU.

    Shame we have to reteach basic lessons on evidential science every time someone new pops up on here
    Difference is Skeptical Science links to peer reviewed research.

    Denial blogs lead to er, other denial blogs and delusional discussion.

    Because there is no science that supports the denial of AGW.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    And I see Nick quotes the leader of the opposition in Lincolnshire as representative of UKIP opinion. He's clearly a lot less senior than former Shadow Immigration Minister Phil Woolas. Is it fair to class his comments as representative of Labour, Nick? After all, he was appointed to his position after he made the comments by Ed Miliband.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    @ Richard Tyndall

    I have noticed that the climate-credulous tend to flit from blog to blog in hopes that they'll find one whose denizens are intellectually incurious and minded to accept the authority of other blogs.

    They then trot out the usual stuff.

    They are sort of running out of places to go though. I'm surprised none has ever rocked up here before if LogicalSong is the first.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    A bit previous, but I will remember you all when I become UKIP Member of Parliament for Upminster & Hornchurch...

    "Dear Member

    The executive committee has now appointed approximately thirteen of our branch members to stand as candidates in the local elections which will be take place in 2014. However, we are still looking for candidates to stand in the following wards; Cranham, Mawneys, Pettits, Romford Town and Upminster.

    If you live in one of these wards and think you might like to stand, please contact me either by email or by phone on 01708 ******. If you have never stood in a local election and are not quite sure about standing, I would be happy to let you know what is involved before you commit yourself.

    As a branch we would like to have a candidate in every ward in the Borough so that UKIP voters do see the UKIP logo on the ballot paper and have someone to vote for.

    After our victory in the by-election in Gooshays ward in March of this year we are hoping to win more council seats, so please do think about standing if you possibly can, if you live in one of the above wards. I look forward to hearing from you.

    With kind regards

    John Glanville

    Branch Secretary"
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    edited May 2013
    Plato said:

    Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity.

    I know *why* they do it but their arguments are rice paper thin - patriotism is equated with jingoism, nationalism with fascism/Nazis - yet this doesn't apply to PC or the SNP - just Kippers or the English/St George.

    I had a long discussion with for example Mr NPEXMP on this very subject several months ago.

    And others who denied that the British or Engish had any national culture or identity - we are all mongrels, blah blah. I find this very insulting and demeaning. No wonder Kippers are doing so well. Everyone else has an identity that must be respected bar the resident populace - WTF is the logic here?

    I am very clear about my identity as a white British/English/CoE cultural person and its just as valid as any other whatever Labour tries to annex for its own divisive identity politics ends.

    Labour are the ones who've played this game to destruction - and now Kippers are picking up their ex-voters in droves. Serves them right for trying to divide us up.

    "Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity."

    "English/British"? I think you've partly answered your own question there.

    I do not remember a single person on PB ever saying people did not have British or English (or Scottish, Welsh, Irish etc) identities.This is just something that Plato has decided lefties believe. Clearly it makes her good to think it, so who are we to deny her that pleasure?

    With regards to a single and homogenous English culture, let alone a British one, I have asked any number of times for a definition of what it is on here and have yet to receive a credible answer. There is stuff that unites all of us; there is other stuf that unites some of us. How you get a single culture out of that is beyond me. But, again, if it makes right wingers feel good to say that the left denies British or English culture exists, so be it. They will believe what they want to believe. Perhaps that's a definition of a right winger. Or at least of a certain kind of one :-)

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Plato said:

    Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity.

    I know *why* they do it but their arguments are rice paper thin - patriotism is equated with jingoism, nationalism with fascism/Nazis - yet this doesn't apply to PC or the SNP - just Kippers or the English/St George.

    I had a long discussion with for example Mr NPEXMP on this very subject several months ago.

    And others who denied that the British or Engish had any national culture or identity - we are all mongrels, blah blah. I find this very insulting and demeaning. No wonder Kippers are doing so well. Everyone else has an identity that must be respected bar the resident populace - WTF is the logic here?

    I am very clear about my identity as a white British/English/CoE cultural person and its just as valid as any other whatever Labour tries to annex for its own divisive identity politics ends.

    Labour are the ones who've played this game to destruction - and now Kippers are picking up their ex-voters in droves. Serves them right for trying to divide us up.

    "Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity."

    "English/British"? I think you've partly answered your own question there.

    I do not remember a single person on PB ever saying people did not have British or English (or Scottish, Welsh, Irish etc) identities.This is just something that Plato has decided lefties believe. Clearly it makes her good to think it, so who are we to deny her that pleasure?

    With regards to a single and homogenous English culture, let alone a British one, I have asked any number of times for a definition of what it is on here and have yet to receive a credible answer. There is stuff that unites all of us; there is other stuf that unites some of us. How you get a single culture out of that is beyond me. But, again, if it makes right wingers feel good to say that the left denies British or English culture exists, so be it. They will believe what they want to believe. Perhaps that's a definition of a right winger. Or at least of a certain kind of one :-)

    I believe that was TSE, he objected to the idea that culture existed outside of Yorkshire.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    There is stuff that unites all of us....

    'fair play?' 'habeus corpus?' 'free speech?' 'tolerance of religions and at the same time the right to be secular?'

    'The British and Irish Lions?'
  • Robert_Of_SheffieldRobert_Of_Sheffield Posts: 207
    edited May 2013
    Socrates said:

    There's a difference between a "don't know" and a "takes no position". The climate papers in question might not have addressed the question.

    Odds are, the 66% didn't address the question, as you suggest, since the paper does give a much smaller figure for papers saying "don't know," but I was drawing an analogy with opinion polls, where "don't know" is more common than "didn't say". The difference between the two isn't that important, compared to the fact that 66% of the sample couldn't be placed in either camp.

    If 66% of people in an opinion poll took no position, would you consider it reasonable to gloss over that, and just cite the split among those who did take a position? E.g reporting the poll as showing 60% Labour, 30% Tories, 10% other, when 66% actually didn't name any party they supported?

    I certainly hope not. It's a cheap trick, to inflate the percentage agreeing, and no more.

    If only 5% fell into neither camp, it might be acceptable to just give the percentage of those papers taking a side, with a footnote mentioning the 5%, but two-thirds is far too much to brush under the carpet.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,012
    sam said:

    A bit previous, but I will remember you all when I become UKIP Member of Parliament for Upminster & Hornchurch...

    "Dear Member

    The executive committee has now appointed approximately thirteen of our branch members to stand as candidates in the local elections which will be take place in 2014. However, we are still looking for candidates to stand in the following wards; Cranham, Mawneys, Pettits, Romford Town and Upminster.

    If you live in one of these wards and think you might like to stand, please contact me either by email or by phone on 01708 ******. If you have never stood in a local election and are not quite sure about standing, I would be happy to let you know what is involved before you commit yourself.

    As a branch we would like to have a candidate in every ward in the Borough so that UKIP voters do see the UKIP logo on the ballot paper and have someone to vote for.

    After our victory in the by-election in Gooshays ward in March of this year we are hoping to win more council seats, so please do think about standing if you possibly can, if you live in one of the above wards. I look forward to hearing from you.

    With kind regards

    John Glanville

    Branch Secretary"

    If you do stand and you get in can we provide direct input into UKIP's policies much like SeanT's reliance on PB for his telegraph pieces?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,628
    BenM said:

    The PB climate change skeptics are at it again.

    A major study of nearly 12,000 peer-reviewed papers in the climate-science literature has – again – proven that among climate scientists, an overwhelming percentage agree with the consensus view that human activity causes global warming.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/17/survey_of_scientific_opinion_of_global_warming/

    See the climate myths debunked here::
    http://skepticalscience.com/

    As I have said many times before, linking to the utterly unscientific Skeptical Science blog to support any position on AGW is about as clever as linking to a UKIP site to support ones position on the EU.

    Shame we have to reteach basic lessons on evidential science every time someone new pops up on here
    Difference is Skeptical Science links to peer reviewed research.

    Denial blogs lead to er, other denial blogs and delusional discussion.

    Because there is no science that supports the denial of AGW.
    Simply not true Ben. You really should know better than that. I have linked to plenty of peer reviewed papers in the past that dispute the AGW hypothesis. And the number is steadily growing.

    I wonder what your view is on the fact that we are now seeing more and more fall back by the AGW proponents who are now continuously revising down their predictions for temperature rises as the actual measurements steadily erode the efficacy of their models?
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    @ Southam

    The issue, surely, is that you could make the same challenge in respect of any culture. Plato's point I think is that people are much slower to scoff at the existence of Asian, or Chinese, or black cultures than at the idea of an indigenous English culture.

    If you Google the term "no such thing as Asian culture" you get 15,000 results; changing the word "Asian" to "British" gets you 19,000 results. The former term is likely to yield results from around the world, and the highest link are religion-related, whereas the latter would yield only UK results. My inference is that the latter claim is heard much more in the UK.

    It doesn't follow that all those on the left think this, but it does seem to be something that only those on the left would think.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013
    TOPPING said:

    sam said:

    A bit previous, but I will remember you all when I become UKIP Member of Parliament for Upminster & Hornchurch...

    "Dear Member

    The executive committee has now appointed approximately thirteen of our branch members to stand as candidates in the local elections which will be take place in 2014. However, we are still looking for candidates to stand in the following wards; Cranham, Mawneys, Pettits, Romford Town and Upminster.

    If you live in one of these wards and think you might like to stand, please contact me either by email or by phone on 01708 ******. If you have never stood in a local election and are not quite sure about standing, I would be happy to let you know what is involved before you commit yourself.

    As a branch we would like to have a candidate in every ward in the Borough so that UKIP voters do see the UKIP logo on the ballot paper and have someone to vote for.

    After our victory in the by-election in Gooshays ward in March of this year we are hoping to win more council seats, so please do think about standing if you possibly can, if you live in one of the above wards. I look forward to hearing from you.

    With kind regards

    John Glanville

    Branch Secretary"

    If you do stand and you get in can we provide direct input into UKIP's policies much like SeanT's reliance on PB for his telegraph pieces?
    Always willing to lend an ear and to steal an idea!

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,628
    Socrates said:

    Nick also says this on his website:

    "[UKIP] also favour joining the European Economic Area."

    Can he provide any evidence for this? I don't believe it's UKIP policy.

    It isn't. It is wrong on a number of levels.

    1. We would not 'join' the EEA as we are already members. It is simply the inevitable position we would find ourselves in initially after we had left the EU.
    2. The current UKIP position as articulated by Farage and others is that their preference is for us not to remain in the EEA but to consider a new relationship with the rest of Europe along the lines of EFTA.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    edited May 2013
    "We would not 'join' the EEA as we are already members. It is simply the inevitable position we would find ourselves in initially after we had left the EU. "

    Isn't membership of the EEA contingent on being a member of either the EU or EFTA?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,628
    edited May 2013

    @ Richard Tyndall

    I have noticed that the climate-credulous tend to flit from blog to blog in hopes that they'll find one whose denizens are intellectually incurious and minded to accept the authority of other blogs.

    They then trot out the usual stuff.

    They are sort of running out of places to go though. I'm surprised none has ever rocked up here before if LogicalSong is the first.

    He isn't, there are a few who pop up here once in a while and do drive by idiocy. Some like BenM stick around, make the occasional idiotic comment and then retreat when they get shot down.

    there are however others like Socrates who are AGW proponents but are reasonable and try to make use of proper science rather than blog entries. It is a pleasure debating with them as it inevitably improve's both sides understanding of the issues and limitations as well as helping to hone debating skills and order thoughts.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,962

    Plato said:

    Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity.

    I know *why* they do it but their arguments are rice paper thin - patriotism is equated with jingoism, nationalism with fascism/Nazis - yet this doesn't apply to PC or the SNP - just Kippers or the English/St George.

    I had a long discussion with for example Mr NPEXMP on this very subject several months ago.

    And others who denied that the British or Engish had any national culture or identity - we are all mongrels, blah blah. I find this very insulting and demeaning. No wonder Kippers are doing so well. Everyone else has an identity that must be respected bar the resident populace - WTF is the logic here?

    I am very clear about my identity as a white British/English/CoE cultural person and its just as valid as any other whatever Labour tries to annex for its own divisive identity politics ends.

    Labour are the ones who've played this game to destruction - and now Kippers are picking up their ex-voters in droves. Serves them right for trying to divide us up.

    "Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity."

    "English/British"? I think you've partly answered your own question there.

    I do not remember a single person on PB ever saying people did not have British or English (or Scottish, Welsh, Irish etc) identities.This is just something that Plato has decided lefties believe. Clearly it makes her good to think it, so who are we to deny her that pleasure?

    With regards to a single and homogenous English culture, let alone a British one, I have asked any number of times for a definition of what it is on here and have yet to receive a credible answer. There is stuff that unites all of us; there is other stuf that unites some of us. How you get a single culture out of that is beyond me. But, again, if it makes right wingers feel good to say that the left denies British or English culture exists, so be it. They will believe what they want to believe. Perhaps that's a definition of a right winger. Or at least of a certain kind of one :-)

    Whilst I agree with your broad thrust, surely that's the same for any large country? By your definition, is there really a French culture, when a Parisian has a very different lifestyle and outlook to a more rural character, even where their families go back hundreds of years? Or a German culture, or Italian?

    Can there really be a homogeneous culture in a country of any size?

    By that standard, I'm not sure there's even a Scottish culture; from what I have seen the lifestyle and outlook is very different in the Borders to the far northwest, yet alone the centre of Edinburgh or Glasgow. Or Welsh, given the difference between the south of the country and Snowdonia.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667

    Plato said:

    Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity.

    I know *why* they do it but their arguments are rice paper thin - patriotism is equated with jingoism, nationalism with fascism/Nazis - yet this doesn't apply to PC or the SNP - just Kippers or the English/St George.

    I had a long discussion with for example Mr NPEXMP on this very subject several months ago.

    And others who denied that the British or Engish had any national culture or identity - we are all mongrels, blah blah. I find this very insulting and demeaning. No wonder Kippers are doing so well. Everyone else has an identity that must be respected bar the resident populace - WTF is the logic here?

    I am very clear about my identity as a white British/English/CoE cultural person and its just as valid as any other whatever Labour tries to annex for its own divisive identity politics ends.

    Labour are the ones who've played this game to destruction - and now Kippers are picking up their ex-voters in droves. Serves them right for trying to divide us up.

    "Something I've never understood about many Lefties on PB is why they pretend there is no English/British culture or identity."

    "English/British"? I think you've partly answered your own question there.

    I do not remember a single person on PB ever saying people did not have British or English (or Scottish, Welsh, Irish etc) identities.This is just something that Plato has decided lefties believe. Clearly it makes her good to think it, so who are we to deny her that pleasure?

    With regards to a single and homogenous English culture, let alone a British one, I have asked any number of times for a definition of what it is on here and have yet to receive a credible answer. There is stuff that unites all of us; there is other stuf that unites some of us. How you get a single culture out of that is beyond me. But, again, if it makes right wingers feel good to say that the left denies British or English culture exists, so be it. They will believe what they want to believe. Perhaps that's a definition of a right winger. Or at least of a certain kind of one :-)

    Whilst I agree with your broad thrust, surely that's the same for any large country? By your definition, is there really a French culture, when a Parisian has a very different lifestyle and outlook to a more rural character, even where their families go back hundreds of years? Or a German culture, or Italian?

    Can there really be a homogeneous culture in a country of any size?

    By that standard, I'm not sure there's even a Scottish culture; from what I have seen the lifestyle and outlook is very different in the Borders to the far northwest, yet alone the centre of Edinburgh or Glasgow. Or Welsh, given the difference between the south of the country and Snowdonia.

    I completely agree with you.

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