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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » While Scottish athletes flourish in the Glasgow games there

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited July 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » While Scottish athletes flourish in the Glasgow games there’s a big polling blow for independence campaigners

In August 2013 there was a sensational poll by the Northumberland-based Panelbase that had YES 1% ahead. Although the survey had been commissioned by the SNP the firm is the regular pollster in Scotland for the Sunday Times which added credence to its findings

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Good morning everybody. First!
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Second!
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    edited July 2014
    Labour lead at 1- Latest YouGov / Sunday Times results 25th July - Con 35%, Lab 36%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%; APP -19

    All supplementary questions show swings to Dave (net 6 in approval ratings) and the govt on the economy with tied at 45% on whether it's being managed well.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Fourth! Two behind the separatists!

    For a little light relief, this latest "victory for Eck" is facing challenges over on that website which cannot be named.....
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291

    Fourth! Two behind the separatists!

    For a little light relief, this latest "victory for Eck" is facing challenges over on that website which cannot be named.....

    I too popped over to Scot Goes Pop - I think Mike is pretty relaxed about referring to it - and James Kelly never disappoints.
  • JohnO said:

    Labour lead at 1- Latest YouGov / Sunday Times results 25th July - Con 35%, Lab 36%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%; APP -19

    All supplementary questions show swings to Dave (net 6 in approval ratings) and the govt on the economy with tied at 45% on whether it's being managed well.

    Great poll result for Dave. Backed up by recent ICM and Populus polls, it looks as if crossover with YouGov is at last imminent.

    Will Labour be rattled? You bet they will ...... that huge lead has all but gone!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Interesting Nat snippets from YouGov :

    Will successful Commonwealth games make it more likely Scots will vote for independence? Scot subsample: Yes: 22, No: 9, no diff:60.

    And then the chippy Scot who cheers an English loss:

    Imagine the last UK team in a competition is England would you want them to: (Scottish subsample):
    Win: 53
    Lose: 11
    No difference: 30

    Notably the English support for a Scottish loss is around half that....
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    A little dignity on PB please ....

    Mr and Mrs David Herdson are on honeymoon ....
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest McARSE Scottish Referendum Projection Countdown

    50 hours
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Its looking more comfortable for Dave by the week. AFAIC any result that keeps Miliband out of Downing St is a good result.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,698

    JohnO said:

    Labour lead at 1- Latest YouGov / Sunday Times results 25th July - Con 35%, Lab 36%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%; APP -19

    All supplementary questions show swings to Dave (net 6 in approval ratings) and the govt on the economy with tied at 45% on whether it's being managed well.

    Great poll result for Dave. Backed up by recent ICM and Populus polls, it looks as if crossover with YouGov is at last imminent.

    Will Labour be rattled? You bet they will ...... that huge lead has all but gone!
    UNS still shows Lab Govt, though. Lab 327, Cons 285. LD bloodbath, 11.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Not sure UNS works or those tables with UKIP in the mix, its untested. but I take your point
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276

    JohnO said:

    Labour lead at 1- Latest YouGov / Sunday Times results 25th July - Con 35%, Lab 36%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%; APP -19

    All supplementary questions show swings to Dave (net 6 in approval ratings) and the govt on the economy with tied at 45% on whether it's being managed well.

    Great poll result for Dave. Backed up by recent ICM and Populus polls, it looks as if crossover with YouGov is at last imminent.

    Will Labour be rattled? You bet they will ...... that huge lead has all but gone!
    UNS still shows Lab Govt, though. Lab 327, Cons 285. LD bloodbath, 11.
    The UKIP vote must be squeezed in the campaign, I find the idea that it'll stay in double figures improbable.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    I see Ed is continuing his "I don't look like a future PM" campaign by giving a live TV interview.

    What could possibly go wrong...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @carrieapples: Did Ed Miliband really hire a voice coach just 24 hours after claiming he has no time for 'politics driven by image'? http://t.co/i1NfuaGu4I
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,698

    Not sure UNS works or those tables with UKIP in the mix, its untested. but I take your point

    Electoral Calculus gives the option of including UKIP. I put it in; “nul point”! TBH, I’m not really a believer in UNS either. It’s a guide, no more.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Scott_P said:

    @carrieapples: Did Ed Miliband really hire a voice coach just 24 hours after claiming he has no time for 'politics driven by image'? http://t.co/i1NfuaGu4I

    I knew it would end in tears..
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: Sunday Times reports that Ed Miliband has hired an autism expert to help him re-craft his image. Seriously.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Sunday Times reports that Ed Miliband has hired an autism expert to help him re-craft his image. Seriously.

    That actually sounds a logical step.. notwithstanding the fact that Miliband is a lying hypocrite.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    That actually sounds a logical step.. notwithstanding the fact that Miliband is a lying hypocrite.

    Count the number of times Ed says empathy in his Marr interview
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    I cant watch him, I just cant, I hit the off switch.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I cant watch him, I just cant, I hit the off switch.

    Are you saying he has an image problem?

    Oh, wait...
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    I watch the BBC video clips of the "important" things he has to say, but otherwise I find it impossible to listen,.. it was pretty much the same with Brown
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    I cant watch him, I just cant, I hit the off switch.

    Who was the last Labour leader you wanted to watch?

  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Scott_P said:

    I cant watch him, I just cant, I hit the off switch.

    Are you saying he has an image problem?

    Oh, wait...
    It really is a massive problem. He's very difficult to watch, which if your primary role is to communicate with a mass audience is, shall we say, sub optimal. I've no doubt people will defend him using the "it's shallow" argument, and they'll be right. But it doesn't stop it being true. Once he's exposed in the up coming campaign it's going to be brutal, he's going to end up as a joke figure, much as Kinnock did.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    I cant watch him, I just cant, I hit the off switch.

    Who was the last Labour leader you wanted to watch?


    Blair, till I realised he was a Snake oil salesman
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    I cant watch him, I just cant, I hit the off switch.

    Who was the last Labour leader you wanted to watch?

    John Smith and in the early days, Blair.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    saddened said:

    Once he's exposed in the up coming campaign it's going to be brutal, he's going to end up as a joke figure, much as Kinnock did.

    @DPJHodges: Labour's decision to launch its summer campaign by focussing on Ed Miliband's image is utter madness.

    This is also strange

    @politicshome: Several female Conservative MPs have urged the party not to focus attacks on Ed Miliband’s image. http://t.co/OBFNhncVlq

    Ed Miliband has decided to focus attacks on Ed Milband's image.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited July 2014
    "So this morning’s Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times will come as a huge disappointment for those campaigning for Scotland to vote for independence"

    Is it really as clear as that? The gap for all respondents has a No lead down to 7 (8 excluding DKs). From the previous Panelbase poll the gap has dropped by 4. There are 7 weeks to go. There could still be time for a change, what if there really is a "shy SNP vote" similar to 2011? What if the lazy Labour voters are less motivated to bother to go and vote?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2014
    Scott_P said:

    saddened said:

    Once he's exposed in the up coming campaign it's going to be brutal, he's going to end up as a joke figure, much as Kinnock did.

    @DPJHodges: Labour's decision to launch its summer campaign by focussing on Ed Miliband's image is utter madness.

    This is also strange

    @politicshome: Several female Conservative MPs have urged the party not to focus attacks on Ed Miliband’s image. http://t.co/OBFNhncVlq

    Ed Miliband has decided to focus attacks on Ed Milband's image.
    I think I must be channelling Dan Hodges, or vice versa, I said in an earlier thread that they had taken leave of their senses.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @politicshome: Ed Miliband on leadership/image: "The presentational, the superficial, the trivial... is what’s elevated above the big ideas." #marr

    That's why I have hired several image consultants...
  • JohnO said:

    Labour lead at 1- Latest YouGov / Sunday Times results 25th July - Con 35%, Lab 36%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%; APP -19
    All supplementary questions show swings to Dave (net 6 in approval ratings) and the govt on the economy with tied at 45% on whether it's being managed well.

    Maybe an outlier? But if not and it really is a cross over point, a few weeks of Conservative leads would start a panic in Labour.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: "The underlining narrative of your speech is that there's and Ed Miliband problem".
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: "The underlining narrative of your speech is that there's and Ed Miliband problem".

    That reads well
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.

    You have forgotten the Winter of Discontent! I think everyone has roseate memories of Smith because of the timing of his death. He never had to deal with the realities of power.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: "The underlining narrative of your speech is that there's and Ed Miliband problem".

    Eh ?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    I blame the Red Arrows.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.

    You have forgotten the Winter of Discontent! I think everyone has roseate memories of Smith because of the timing of his death. He never had to deal with the realities of power.

    I haven't forgotten anything, you asked me who was the last Labour leader I wanted to listen to , So I told you. I also mentioned others who are not in the repugnant mould or Latterly Blair Brown and now Miliband.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Scott_P said:

    saddened said:

    Once he's exposed in the up coming campaign it's going to be brutal, he's going to end up as a joke figure, much as Kinnock did.

    @DPJHodges: Labour's decision to launch its summer campaign by focussing on Ed Miliband's image is utter madness.

    This is also strange

    @politicshome: Several female Conservative MPs have urged the party not to focus attacks on Ed Miliband’s image. http://t.co/OBFNhncVlq

    Ed Miliband has decided to focus attacks on Ed Milband's image.
    The media were always going to do a cycle on Ed Miliband's image at some point between now and the general election, better to do it over the summer when nobody's paying attention. More speeches planned over the next month or so IIUC, probably also about things Labour would rather get out of the way.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    The media were always going to do a cycle on Ed Miliband's image at some point between now and the general election, better to do it over the summer when nobody's paying attention. More speeches planned over the next month or so IIUC, probably also about things Labour would rather get out of the way.

    Except that Ed has explicitly framed every cycle around his image.

    Next time he gives a speech anywhere except a bland conference room, the first question will be "why this photo op?"

    All the way to the election
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Scott_P said:

    saddened said:

    Once he's exposed in the up coming campaign it's going to be brutal, he's going to end up as a joke figure, much as Kinnock did.

    @DPJHodges: Labour's decision to launch its summer campaign by focussing on Ed Miliband's image is utter madness.

    This is also strange

    @politicshome: Several female Conservative MPs have urged the party not to focus attacks on Ed Miliband’s image. http://t.co/OBFNhncVlq

    Ed Miliband has decided to focus attacks on Ed Milband's image.
    The media were always going to do a cycle on Ed Miliband's image at some point between now and the general election, better to do it over the summer when nobody's paying attention. More speeches planned over the next month or so IIUC, probably also about things Labour would rather get out of the way.
    I don't think they are going to get it "out of the way" somehow.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    saddened said:

    Scott_P said:

    I cant watch him, I just cant, I hit the off switch.

    Are you saying he has an image problem?

    Oh, wait...
    It really is a massive problem. He's very difficult to watch, which if your primary role is to communicate with a mass audience is, shall we say, sub optimal. I've no doubt people will defend him using the "it's shallow" argument, and they'll be right. But it doesn't stop it being true. Once he's exposed in the up coming campaign it's going to be brutal, he's going to end up as a joke figure, much as Kinnock did.
    I think he'd settle for that - if he wins the same vote share that Kinnock did he wouldn't just be a joke figure, he'd be a joke Prime Minister.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Usain Bolt on Israel, Palestine, and the Indy ref

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2706740/NUTS-AND-BOLT.html
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704

    Scott_P said:

    saddened said:

    Once he's exposed in the up coming campaign it's going to be brutal, he's going to end up as a joke figure, much as Kinnock did.

    @DPJHodges: Labour's decision to launch its summer campaign by focussing on Ed Miliband's image is utter madness.

    This is also strange

    @politicshome: Several female Conservative MPs have urged the party not to focus attacks on Ed Miliband’s image. http://t.co/OBFNhncVlq

    Ed Miliband has decided to focus attacks on Ed Milband's image.
    The media were always going to do a cycle on Ed Miliband's image at some point between now and the general election, better to do it over the summer when nobody's paying attention. More speeches planned over the next month or so IIUC, probably also about things Labour would rather get out of the way.
    Indeed, Milliband is clearly starting early. That has to be a good thing.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Of you think that portraying yourself as a liar and a hypocrite is a good thing, then I guess you are right.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Jonathan said:


    Indeed, Milliband is clearly starting early. That has to be a good thing.

    No

    If the Tories had produced a campaign saying those things, they would have been pilloried.

    Now Ed has done it himself, all bets are off
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Of you think that portraying yourself as a liar and a hypocrite is a good thing, then I guess you are right.

    I mean no sooner was he saying these things than he was flying off for a photo op with Obama.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    The image things is interesting. Attlee would not have got the job today, whilst Eden would have prospered.

    One of the best arguments in favour of a constitutional monarchy is to split showbiz and glamour from politics. While the royal family wear expensive, shiny things and appear in glossy magazines, we elect quietly, effective people to run the country.

    Sadly it doesn't seem to work out that way. Blair, Cameron and Clegg are the Hello generation of politicians.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited July 2014
    Hiring a voice coach isn't inconsistent with criticizing phoney photo opps anyway. It's likely to make him better at his job.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    edited July 2014

    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.

    You have forgotten the Winter of Discontent! I think everyone has roseate memories of Smith because of the timing of his death. He never had to deal with the realities of power.

    You asked a specific question in the hopes that you wouldn't get an answer. Now that you have you are attempting to shift the goalposts, why do you do that?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited July 2014
    Just caught up with the BBC's Breakfast News Show after several years absence..Where on earth did they find the presenters..ham acting at its best.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    Scott_P said:

    Jonathan said:


    Indeed, Milliband is clearly starting early. That has to be a good thing.

    No

    If the Tories had produced a campaign saying those things, they would have been pilloried.

    Now Ed has done it himself, all bets are off
    The whole point is that given these things were going to be said anyway. Better to do it on your own terms, shape the debate and do it when it doesn't matter quite so much. it will blunt the attack to come and may even turn a weakness into a strength.

    I guess we can expect more airbrushed photos of Cameron.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Love to see the airbrushed snaps of Cameron .. where are they?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334

    "So this morning’s Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times will come as a huge disappointment for those campaigning for Scotland to vote for independence"

    Is it really as clear as that? The gap for all respondents has a No lead down to 7 (8 excluding DKs). From the previous Panelbase poll the gap has dropped by 4. There are 7 weeks to go. There could still be time for a change, what if there really is a "shy SNP vote" similar to 2011? What if the lazy Labour voters are less motivated to bother to go and vote?

    I'd suggest a minor adjustment: not so much SNP/Labour in the indyref as a Yes/No distinction, of course. About 30% of Labour voters in 2011 - and those were the real hardcore, help ma boab - are going for Yes from what I see in recent polls. So far.

    I'm glad to see someone else saw what seemed the salient fact re the poll - that the No lead has continued to drop to a point where only a 4 percentage swing is needed for Yes to win. OK, just one more point on a graph with a fair MoE, so I'm not reading much into it. Still, it is interesting, as we are not even past the indyref armistice during hols and Commonwealth Games yet. And yes, the higher turnout for Yes will be increasingly important.

  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    saddened said:

    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.

    You have forgotten the Winter of Discontent! I think everyone has roseate memories of Smith because of the timing of his death. He never had to deal with the realities of power.

    You asked a specific question in the hopes that you wouldn't get an answer. Now that you have you are attempting to shift the goalposts, why do you do that?
    Since you want to know, I'll tell you. It was to see how long it would take you (and Square Root, and one or two more who know they are) to descend to personal abuse. My bet with myself was "not long at all" and I see I'll have to pay out. And collect, too... In fact I will go so far as to say that the only reason people like you pitch up here is to be abusive to those whose political views (not that you know what mine are, come to that) you disagree with.



  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704

    Love to see the airbrushed snaps of Cameron .. where are they?

    Like these ones...

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/jan/07/david-cameron-campaign-poster-rumour
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.

    You have forgotten the Winter of Discontent! I think everyone has roseate memories of Smith because of the timing of his death. He never had to deal with the realities of power.

    You asked a specific question in the hopes that you wouldn't get an answer. Now that you have you are attempting to shift the goalposts, why do you do that?
    Since you want to know, I'll tell you. It was to see how long it would take you (and Square Root, and one or two more who know they are) to descend to personal abuse. My bet with myself was "not long at all" and I see I'll have to pay out. And collect, too... In fact I will go so far as to say that the only reason people like you pitch up here is to be abusive to those whose political views (not that you know what mine are, come to that) you disagree with.



    Care to quote the abuse?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    "So this morning’s Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times will come as a huge disappointment for those campaigning for Scotland to vote for independence"

    Is it really as clear as that? The gap for all respondents has a No lead down to 7. From the previous Panelbase poll the gap has dropped by 4. There are 7 weeks to go. There could still be time for a change, what if there really is a "shy SNP vote" similar to 2011? What if the lazy Labour voters are less motivated to bother to go and vote?

    The idea of a shy SNP/pro-YES vote is, I'd suggest, nonsense. A bit like the "shy" kippers ready to tell pollsters they'd vote purple in the Euros and then didn't.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Ahhhhhh The Nanny McPhee play book. History will record May 2015 as the blandslide election.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986
    Morning all :)

    I find it curious that earlier in the week when YouGov and Ashcroft showed big Labour leads some people on here were claiming the polls wouldn't be reliable because of holidays and we should wait until the Autumn and discount any polls before then.

    A couple of "favourable" (translates as pro-Conservative and anti-Labour or anti-UKIP) polls later and every poll needs to be micro-analysed and accepted as the very incarnation of Truth itself.

    Yeah right...the weather's nice, holiday time is here and people are feeling better disposed towards almost everything (except Gatwick Airport baggage handlers).

    As isam has said, there's nothing wrong with hiring a voice coach, I thought that's what a certain Margaret Thatcher did.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    An article from the Guardian..well done.. can we see the picture prior to the airbrushing..just to sort of prove your point.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    Miliband is trying to pull the same fast one Brown did. People are inherently generous and wish to believe everyone has talents. As such those two use their utter lack of ability in image management to claim that they must be serious, competent, thinking figures. At present there is no evidence for this in either case.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Good morning, everyone.

    Glad it's a shade cooler today.

    F1: Sky have helpfully confirmed Hamilton will start from the pitlane:
    http://www1.skysports.com/f1/report/12472/9395787/lewis-hamilton-will-start-the-hungarian-gp-from-the-pitlane-after-qualifying-fire

    This is a significant disadvantage as by the time he catches the field they'll already be moving and will make overtaking much harder than at a standing start.

    He's also had to change his engine, so he must be pretty near the limit now, which means he'll start getting engine penalties almost certainly before Rosberg (10 places, I think, for exceeding the season engine limit).
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Carnyx said:

    "So this morning’s Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times will come as a huge disappointment for those campaigning for Scotland to vote for independence"

    Is it really as clear as that? The gap for all respondents has a No lead down to 7 (8 excluding DKs). From the previous Panelbase poll the gap has dropped by 4. There are 7 weeks to go. There could still be time for a change, what if there really is a "shy SNP vote" similar to 2011? What if the lazy Labour voters are less motivated to bother to go and vote?

    I'd suggest a minor adjustment: not so much SNP/Labour in the indyref as a Yes/No distinction, of course. About 30% of Labour voters in 2011 - and those were the real hardcore, help ma boab - are going for Yes from what I see in recent polls. So far.

    I'm glad to see someone else saw what seemed the salient fact re the poll - that the No lead has continued to drop to a point where only a 4 percentage swing is needed for Yes to win. OK, just one more point on a graph with a fair MoE, so I'm not reading much into it. Still, it is interesting, as we are not even past the indyref armistice during hols and Commonwealth Games yet. And yes, the higher turnout for Yes will be increasingly important.

    Also telling that Bitter Together have to pay people to deliver their leaflets, mainly brought in from England on £10 per hour. meanwhile Yes has thousands of volunteers tramping the streets. It all looks very different from up here.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Back in the land of 3G and belated congratulations to Mr & Mrs Herdson.

    On topic my 17 years old daughter is very prominent in a face book photo used on the BT website. She has been very disturbed to be the recipient of a lot of abusive posts as a result. Some are obscene, most just unpleasant abuse, none that we have been able to detect from people who actually know her.

    This sort of conduct is a problem that the SNP and Yes campaigns have consistently underestimated. Who on earth would want to live in a country run or even influenced by prats like that? It really puts people off. Not my daughter though. She will be canvassing on alternate days this week. I will be doing my best to join her but my inbox is frightening.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Re Sunny Jim and Smith.
    Jim was a fine man, poor PM but held off the loony fringe better than Foot, and was very much like Major in the 'no bitterness' stakes'
    Smith was a dreadful politician, seemed a decent fellow, not a patch on Gould who he destroyed in the leadership election. The 92 shadow budget was idiocy incarnate, and he would have struggled to get a landslide in 97 IMO, although he would clearly have won at a canter an 05 type majority
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Of you think that portraying yourself as a liar and a hypocrite is a good thing, then I guess you are right.

    I mean no sooner was he saying these things than he was flying off for a photo op with Obama.
    The ONLY people who matter are the 2010 LD switchers to LAB 72% of whom are more satisfied with EdM. Compare that with the 65% CON voters satisfied with Dave.

    See http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CON-LAB-BATTLEGROUND-JULY-2014-FULL-TABLES.pdf
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    "So this morning’s Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times will come as a huge disappointment for those campaigning for Scotland to vote for independence"

    Is it really as clear as that? The gap for all respondents has a No lead down to 7 (8 excluding DKs). From the previous Panelbase poll the gap has dropped by 4. There are 7 weeks to go. There could still be time for a change, what if there really is a "shy SNP vote" similar to 2011? What if the lazy Labour voters are less motivated to bother to go and vote?

    I'd suggest a minor adjustment: not so much SNP/Labour in the indyref as a Yes/No distinction, of course. About 30% of Labour voters in 2011 - and those were the real hardcore, help ma boab - are going for Yes from what I see in recent polls. So far.

    I'm glad to see someone else saw what seemed the salient fact re the poll - that the No lead has continued to drop to a point where only a 4 percentage swing is needed for Yes to win. OK, just one more point on a graph with a fair MoE, so I'm not reading much into it. Still, it is interesting, as we are not even past the indyref armistice during hols and Commonwealth Games yet. And yes, the higher turnout for Yes will be increasingly important.

    Also telling that Bitter Together have to pay people to deliver their leaflets, mainly brought in from England on £10 per hour. meanwhile Yes has thousands of volunteers tramping the streets. It all looks very different from up here.
    Do you have a source for the mainly from England part of your post. Because if true it would be very interesting.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2014
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I find it curious that earlier in the week when YouGov and Ashcroft showed big Labour leads some people on here were claiming the polls wouldn't be reliable because of holidays and we should wait until the Autumn and discount any polls before then.

    A couple of "favourable" (translates as pro-Conservative and anti-Labour or anti-UKIP) polls later and every poll needs to be micro-analysed and accepted as the very incarnation of Truth itself.

    Yeah right...the weather's nice, holiday time is here and people are feeling better disposed towards almost everything (except Gatwick Airport baggage handlers).

    As isam has said, there's nothing wrong with hiring a voice coach, I thought that's what a certain Margaret Thatcher did.

    I still think polling in Sept is the time to take serious look at what is going on, after the school holidays.. in the meantime we just look and comment, nothing wrong with that..

    NO voicecoach will satisfactorily sort out Miliband's voice.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    "So this morning’s Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times will come as a huge disappointment for those campaigning for Scotland to vote for independence"

    Is it really as clear as that? The gap for all respondents has a No lead down to 7 (8 excluding DKs). From the previous Panelbase poll the gap has dropped by 4. There are 7 weeks to go. There could still be time for a change, what if there really is a "shy SNP vote" similar to 2011? What if the lazy Labour voters are less motivated to bother to go and vote?

    I'd suggest a minor adjustment: not so much SNP/Labour in the indyref as a Yes/No distinction, of course. About 30% of Labour voters in 2011 - and those were the real hardcore, help ma boab - are going for Yes from what I see in recent polls. So far.

    I'm glad to see someone else saw what seemed the salient fact re the poll - that the No lead has continued to drop to a point where only a 4 percentage swing is needed for Yes to win. OK, just one more point on a graph with a fair MoE, so I'm not reading much into it. Still, it is interesting, as we are not even past the indyref armistice during hols and Commonwealth Games yet. And yes, the higher turnout for Yes will be increasingly important.

    Also telling that Bitter Together have to pay people to deliver their leaflets, mainly brought in from England on £10 per hour. meanwhile Yes has thousands of volunteers tramping the streets. It all looks very different from up here.
    I noticed that too. Is it, I wonder, to do with the strange Electoral Commission rules which IIRC don't count money spent as salaries? Got to do something with all that dosh from wealthy non-voting types, I suppose.

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Of you think that portraying yourself as a liar and a hypocrite is a good thing, then I guess you are right.

    I mean no sooner was he saying these things than he was flying off for a photo op with Obama.
    The ONLY people who matter are the 2010 LD switchers to LAB 72% of whom are more satisfied with EdM. Compare that with the 65% CON voters satisfied with Dave.

    See http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CON-LAB-BATTLEGROUND-JULY-2014-FULL-TABLES.pdf
    Poppycock.
    As important are the Tory-Kipper deserters and whether they come home to defend the right from the march of the left.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Also my reading if Ed Milibands speech isn't that he think all photo ops are bad and he is above them, more an admission that he's not as good as them as Cameron. Obviously the implication is that he would be better at other parts of the job of PM , but to criticise him for doing a photo pop, which us part of the job of any MP, on the back of his speech, misses the point completely

    You can tell by looking who the people saying it are that it's all about an agenda rather than actual debate

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. L, that's Better Together, yes?

    I'm sorry to hear of the deranged messages she's been receiving. Glad she sounds like a sensible young lady who's not letting it put her off.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Milibands main problem is not the voice, it's that nasty sneer when he doesn't agree with a point being made to him. He's arrogant, as shown by the intellectual self-confidence BS.
    That, and he is hamstrung by Balls and Harman. One he could and should get rid of, and one he is stuck with,
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Smithson, that's an exaggeration. Whilst the Lib Dem-to-Labour cohort of voters is very important and hugely helpful to Red Ed, they're not the only ones who matter.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Of you think that portraying yourself as a liar and a hypocrite is a good thing, then I guess you are right.

    I mean no sooner was he saying these things than he was flying off for a photo op with Obama.
    The ONLY people who matter are the 2010 LD switchers to LAB 72% of whom are more satisfied with EdM. Compare that with the 65% CON voters satisfied with Dave.

    See http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CON-LAB-BATTLEGROUND-JULY-2014-FULL-TABLES.pdf
    You'll still be saying that after crossover. You are fixated on 2010 LD's.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928

    Of you think that portraying yourself as a liar and a hypocrite is a good thing, then I guess you are right.

    I mean no sooner was he saying these things than he was flying off for a photo op with Obama.
    The ONLY people who matter are the 2010 LD switchers to LAB 72% of whom are more satisfied with EdM. Compare that with the 65% CON voters satisfied with Dave.

    See http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CON-LAB-BATTLEGROUND-JULY-2014-FULL-TABLES.pdf

    I agree those voters are vital, but if they live in the south west of England, they are more use to Cameron than to Miliband.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    edited July 2014
    Mr. Woolie, well quite. Hard to take seriously a chap who is full of intellectual self-confidence and struggles to outwit a bacon sandwich.

    Edited extra bit: [to clarify] I said at the time, and still think, judging politicians by such silly photo ops is daft. However, you can't then claim to not be interested in them when you clearly are without looking not only hypocritical but also as if you think voters are bloody stupid.

    Flying for a photo with Obama on Monday (missing the Ukraine/Gaza statement in the Commons) and then claiming you don't care about photo ops is treating voters like morons.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.

    You have forgotten the Winter of Discontent! I think everyone has roseate memories of Smith because of the timing of his death. He never had to deal with the realities of power.

    You asked a specific question in the hopes that you wouldn't get an answer. Now that you have you are attempting to shift the goalposts, why do you do that?
    Since you want to know, I'll tell you. It was to see how long it would take you (and Square Root, and one or two more who know they are) to descend to personal abuse. My bet with myself was "not long at all" and I see I'll have to pay out. And collect, too... In fact I will go so far as to say that the only reason people like you pitch up here is to be abusive to those whose political views (not that you know what mine are, come to that) you disagree with.



    Care to quote the abuse?
    "Why are you changing the goalposts?" reads - at least to me - as a sneer. You take yourself far too seriously...

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    Mr. L, that's Better Together, yes?

    I'm sorry to hear of the deranged messages she's been receiving. Glad she sounds like a sensible young lady who's not letting it put her off.

    It is indeed. I do think someone should have thought a little harder about the inevitable abbreviation.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    isam said:

    Also my reading if Ed Milibands speech isn't that he think all photo ops are bad and he is above them, more an admission that he's not as good as them as Cameron. Obviously the implication is that he would be better at other parts of the job of PM , but to criticise him for doing a photo pop, which us part of the job of any MP, on the back of his speech, misses the point completely

    You can tell by looking who the people saying it are that it's all about an agenda rather than actual debate

    It shows he doesn't understand how to do politics, he doesn't think through the implications of what he is saying. Which is fine if he is brimming with conviction. Unfortunately, he never elucidates that, either. Probably because it would make the voters run for the hills.
    He's just rubbish. Our next PM, total rubbish. With a hidden agenda.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Mr. Woolie, well quite. Hard to take seriously a chap who is full of intellectual self-confidence and struggles to outwit a bacon sandwich.

    Edited extra bit: [to clarify] I said at the time, and still think, judging politicians by such silly photo ops is daft. However, you can't then claim to not be interested in them when you clearly are without looking not only hypocritical but also as if you think voters are bloody stupid.

    Flying for a photo with Obama on Monday (missing the Ukraine/Gaza statement in the Commons) and then claiming you don't care about photo ops is treating voters like morons.

    Worse, it was a dereliction of his duty to her majesty as leader of her opposition. A point which should be rammed down his throat again and again, not fit for office.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    edited July 2014

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.

    You have forgotten the Winter of Discontent! I think everyone has roseate memories of Smith because of the timing of his death. He never had to deal with the realities of power.

    You asked a specific question in the hopes that you wouldn't get an answer. Now that you have you are attempting to shift the goalposts, why do you do that?
    Since you want to know, I'll tell you. It was to see how long it would take you (and Square Root, and one or two more who know they are) to descend to personal abuse. My bet with myself was "not long at all" and I see I'll have to pay out. And collect, too... In fact I will go so far as to say that the only reason people like you pitch up here is to be abusive to those whose political views (not that you know what mine are, come to that) you disagree with.



    Care to quote the abuse?
    "Why are you changing the goalposts?" reads - at least to me - as a sneer. You take yourself far too seriously...

    If that's your definition of abuse, what does "you take yourself far too seriously..." count as, condescension?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Of you think that portraying yourself as a liar and a hypocrite is a good thing, then I guess you are right.

    I mean no sooner was he saying these things than he was flying off for a photo op with Obama.
    The ONLY people who matter are the 2010 LD switchers to LAB 72% of whom are more satisfied with EdM. Compare that with the 65% CON voters satisfied with Dave.

    See http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CON-LAB-BATTLEGROUND-JULY-2014-FULL-TABLES.pdf

    I agree those voters are vital, but if they live in the south west of England, they are more use to Cameron than to Miliband.
    Mike seems to think the LD vote share will hold up in Tory/Lib marginals but this in some magical way won't impact on the Lab national share of the vote. Red liberals are being counted twice in this fantasy 'only game in town' thesis.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.

    You have forgotten the Winter of Discontent! I think everyone has roseate memories of Smith because of the timing of his death. He never had to deal with the realities of power.

    You asked a specific question in the hopes that you wouldn't get an answer. Now that you have you are attempting to shift the goalposts, why do you do that?
    Since you want to know, I'll tell you. It was to see how long it would take you (and Square Root, and one or two more who know they are) to descend to personal abuse. My bet with myself was "not long at all" and I see I'll have to pay out. And collect, too... In fact I will go so far as to say that the only reason people like you pitch up here is to be abusive to those whose political views (not that you know what mine are, come to that) you disagree with.



    Care to quote the abuse?
    "Why are you changing the goalposts?" reads - at least to me - as a sneer. You take yourself far too seriously...

    It's "moving the goalposts"
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Not sure whether Hamilton or Magnussen will be last out of the pit lane. Apparently Hamilton's front suspension was the only significant part of the car not ruined by fire damage. The mechanics won't have had much sleep last night.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    PB Hodges out in force this morning and a poll that gets mentioned over and over again. Oh it must must be a good poll for the Baby Eaters. Luckily we will get back to normal next week and posts about polls will be as common as Tory minister that uses the NHS. Tally Ho!
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    As it appears to be such a defining event, I have finally got around to watching the Sky News video of watching Ed eating a bacon sandwich. It just looks like someone eating - he's not doing it with his mouth open; he's not obviously slavering. Have I missed something?
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    isam said:

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    Yes John Smith, I thought bhe was a decent cove in fact Sunny Jim was too.

    You have forgotten the Winter of Discontent! I think everyone has roseate memories of Smith because of the timing of his death. He never had to deal with the realities of power.

    You asked a specific question in the hopes that you wouldn't get an answer. Now that you have you are attempting to shift the goalposts, why do you do that?
    Since you want to know, I'll tell you. It was to see how long it would take you (and Square Root, and one or two more who know they are) to descend to personal abuse. My bet with myself was "not long at all" and I see I'll have to pay out. And collect, too... In fact I will go so far as to say that the only reason people like you pitch up here is to be abusive to those whose political views (not that you know what mine are, come to that) you disagree with.



    Care to quote the abuse?
    "Why are you changing the goalposts?" reads - at least to me - as a sneer. You take yourself far too seriously...

    It's "moving the goalposts"
    Silly of me, it's not as if the expression ever gets used on here.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    edited July 2014
    Really interesting column in the ST today by David Smith, most of which is available here: http://www.economicsuk.com/blog/002037.html#more

    He says:

    "But £95bn is still a big number, and is a lot bigger than the OBR expected when it published its first forecast alongside Osborne’s first budget, back in June 2010, when it predicted a deficit of only £37bn for this year. Doesn’t this tell us that the critics are right, and that the chancellor has soft-pedalled on austerity, kicking the can down the road?

    No. If we take public spending, which is where the chancellor gets it in the next from his right-wing critics, the striking thing is not that that spending has been relaxed but that it has been tightened – cut – relative to the 2010 plans.

    According to those plans, the government intended to spend £722bn in the 2013-14 fiscal year, that one that ended this spring. In fact it spent £714bn.

    Spending has been lower each year than set out then. Public sector current spending was originally intended to be £679bn in 2013-14. In fact it was £668bn. Unusually, for any government, spending has come in comfortably within budget. There has been no slippage.
    "

    So Avery is largely right. Osborne, with a lot of help from Danny Alexander, has been astonishingly successful in controlling public spending. He has also refused to panic when the tax receipts that faster growth ought to have delivered did not arrive and cut further. The result should be a rapidly improving financial situation as we play catch up with growth. Will that happen too? Most of his piece is about the underlying situation being better than the recent numbers indicate (largely to do with the accounting for tax on bonuses again).

    That I am not so sure about.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    As it appears to be such a defining event, I have finally got around to watching the Sky News video of watching Ed eating a bacon sandwich. It just looks like someone eating - he's not doing it with his mouth open; he's not obviously slavering. Have I missed something?

    It's wasn't bad tv it looked bad when it was captured in a photo... The furore around it is juvenile nonsense from the usual suspects
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    p.s. Perhaps instead of a debate focused on policies, in the run-up to the General Election we could have a live TV event in which the three leaders are watched eating various forms of fast food. It would have to be a Cornish pasty for Dave, of course.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928

    As it appears to be such a defining event, I have finally got around to watching the Sky News video of watching Ed eating a bacon sandwich. It just looks like someone eating - he's not doing it with his mouth open; he's not obviously slavering. Have I missed something?

    No-one looks great when they are eating. Ed's the same as anyone else. Not very smart to let the cameras in though.

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    isam said:

    As it appears to be such a defining event, I have finally got around to watching the Sky News video of watching Ed eating a bacon sandwich. It just looks like someone eating - he's not doing it with his mouth open; he's not obviously slavering. Have I missed something?

    It's wasn't bad tv it looked bad when it was captured in a photo... The furore around it is juvenile nonsense from the usual suspects
    I concede he doesn't look at his most dignified, but people eating generally don't. Nevertheless, we all have to eat ...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    isam said:


    It's wasn't bad tv it looked bad when it was captured in a photo... The furore around it is juvenile nonsense from the usual suspects

    The furore around it is that the bad photos were a result of an explicit photo call by Ed. He invited the cameras to watch him eating a bacon sandwich. Then moaned about looking like a numpty
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986
    One or two of the "anyone but Ed" fan club out in force this morning. Not eating a bacon sandwich well is no worse than riding huskies at the North Pole or going to a Cornish theme park with your wife and entourage.

    It doesn't disqualify you from being a good or bad Prime Minister. I'm still waiting for the meat and drink of Labour policies in key areas (as I am for Conservative and LD policies). If all we pass judgement on is how a man eats a sandwich, we're in a much worse shape than I imagined.

    As for the attacks on Mike's comments about the LD switchers, again, it's a point OGH has made for the past four years. A significant chunk (33-40%) of the 2010 LD vote went back to Labour and is still there. It shouldn't be forgotten that another third went to the Conservatives and UKIP and that was evident in the last ICM poll.

    All we have for "evidence" is local votes in places like Carshalton, Sutton, Cheltenham and a few other LD strongholds which suggest those who have long voted LD tactically in these areas are still doing so. There's also plenty of evidence the 2010 LD vote in hundreds of constituencies has disintegrated and all other parties will benefit.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    As it appears to be such a defining event, I have finally got around to watching the Sky News video of watching Ed eating a bacon sandwich. It just looks like someone eating - he's not doing it with his mouth open; he's not obviously slavering. Have I missed something?

    No-one looks great when they are eating. Ed's the same as anyone else. Not very smart to let the cameras in though.

    Ed isn't the same as everyone else.. Lets get that straight for a start... he looks odd, smiles odd, talks odd, , in fact every mannerism is odd..

    Just watch his Xmas tree video.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Hmm Someone disagrees with OGH and its an attack, that's an interesting point of view
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    YouGov set's things up nicely for #MegaPollingMonday tomorrow,

    #CrossoverMonday
This discussion has been closed.