Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
"North London" or "Islington", when used in a derogatory manner, are broadly synonymous with "poncey". When used as a piece of cod-dailymailese to denigrate politicians or public figures (and it's not just Ed who gets the treatment on that, really it's not), the intended sting is surely an additional charge of hypocrisy. ("If you're so rich, how can you represent the poor? And if your tastes are so luxurious, how can you claim to genuinely care for them?")
I'd agree there are people who don't like the Milibands on grounds which are basically anti-semitic. I think on the whole that it's a private thing, not much of it has crossed over into the media or public life. I'd argue it's been far less of an issue for Miliband than it was for Michael Howard, though the "bacon sandwich incident" sneering had some unpleasant undertones. That's not what "North London" is a code-word for, though.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
"North London" or "Islington", when used in a derogatory manner, are broadly synonymous with "poncey". When used as a piece of cod-dailymailese to denigrate politicians or public figures (and it's not just Ed who gets the treatment on that, really it's not), the intended sting is surely an additional charge of hypocrisy. ("If you're so rich, how can you represent the poor? And if your tastes are so luxurious, how can you claim to genuinely care for them?")
I'd agree there are people who don't like the Milibands on grounds which are basically anti-semitic. I think on the whole that it's a private thing, not much of it has crossed over into the media or public life. I'd argue it's been far less of an issue for Miliband than it was for Michael Howard, though the "bacon sandwich incident" sneering had some unpleasant undertones. That's not what "North London" is a code-word for, though.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
"North London" or "Islington", when used in a derogatory manner, are broadly synonymous with "poncey". When used as a piece of cod-dailymailese to denigrate politicians or public figures (and it's not just Ed who gets the treatment on that, really it's not), the intended sting is surely an additional charge of hypocrisy. ("If you're so rich, how can you represent the poor? And if your tastes are so luxurious, how can you claim to genuinely care for them?")
I'd agree there are people who don't like the Milibands on grounds which are basically anti-semitic. I think on the whole that it's a private thing, not much of it has crossed over into the media or public life. I'd argue it's been far less of an issue for Miliband than it was for Michael Howard, though the "bacon sandwich incident" sneering had some unpleasant undertones. That's not what "North London" is a code-word for, though.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
I cant find where Ed Miliband is called it to be honest.. except by himself
His Dad is called an intellectual, but he was wasn't he?
Ed and David are intellectuals.. and they are from North London!!
Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
"North London" or "Islington", when used in a derogatory manner, are broadly synonymous with "poncey". When used as a piece of cod-dailymailese to denigrate politicians or public figures (and it's not just Ed who gets the treatment on that, really it's not), the intended sting is surely an additional charge of hypocrisy. ("If you're so rich, how can you represent the poor? And if your tastes are so luxurious, how can you claim to genuinely care for them?")
I'd agree there are people who don't like the Milibands on grounds which are basically anti-semitic. I think on the whole that it's a private thing, not much of it has crossed over into the media or public life. I'd argue it's been far less of an issue for Miliband than it was for Michael Howard, though the "bacon sandwich incident" sneering had some unpleasant undertones. That's not what "North London" is a code-word for, though.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
Just saw your later post in which you say the difference is tacking on the word "intellectual". That can't be right either. There are plenty of references to "North London intelligencia" and "North London intellectuals" utterly independent of the Milibands, or of its supposed inhabitants being Jewish. It's not even exclusively dailymailese - a bit of googling shows it appears in all kinds of publications including left-leaning ones, not always in a derogatory context, and sometimes as a self-description.
I tried googling and one name that crops up a lot it is "John Snow". I don't think the usage is restricted to politicians. "Islington set" wasn't exclusively used to refer to pols either, more like a local social landscape - something more akin to a dinner party circuit - through which particular ideas and tastes would percolate.
Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
"North London" or "Islington", when used in a derogatory manner, are broadly synonymous with "poncey". When used as a piece of cod-dailymailese to denigrate politicians or public figures (and it's not just Ed who gets the treatment on that, really it's not), the intended sting is surely an additional charge of hypocrisy. ("If you're so rich, how can you represent the poor? And if your tastes are so luxurious, how can you claim to genuinely care for them?")
I'd agree there are people who don't like the Milibands on grounds which are basically anti-semitic. I think on the whole that it's a private thing, not much of it has crossed over into the media or public life. I'd argue it's been far less of an issue for Miliband than it was for Michael Howard, though the "bacon sandwich incident" sneering had some unpleasant undertones. That's not what "North London" is a code-word for, though.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
Just saw your later post in which you say the difference is tacking on the word "intellectual". That can't be right either. There are plenty of references to "North London intelligencia" and "North London intellectuals" utterly independent of the Milibands, or of its supposed inhabitants being Jewish. It's not even exclusively dailymailese - a bit of googling shows it appears in all kinds of publications including left-leaning ones, not always in a derogatory context, and sometimes as a self-description.
I tried googling and one name that crops up a lot it is "John Snow". I don't think the usage is restricted to politicians. "Islington set" wasn't exclusively used to refer to pols either, more like a local social landscape - something more akin to a dinner party circuit - through which particular ideas and tastes would percolate.
He's called it wrong, but don't expect an admission anytime soon
David Gold @davidgold · 1h I'm sorry to inform you that AC has torn ankle ligaments and will have an operation tomorrow. Andy will be back in about 4 months. dg
Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
"North London" or "Islington", when used in a derogatory manner, are broadly synonymous with "poncey". When used as a piece of cod-dailymailese to denigrate politicians or public figures (and it's not just Ed who gets the treatment on that, really it's not), the intended sting is surely an additional charge of hypocrisy. ("If you're so rich, how can you represent the poor? And if your tastes are so luxurious, how can you claim to genuinely care for them?")
I'd agree there are people who don't like the Milibands on grounds which are basically anti-semitic. I think on the whole that it's a private thing, not much of it has crossed over into the media or public life. I'd argue it's been far less of an issue for Miliband than it was for Michael Howard, though the "bacon sandwich incident" sneering had some unpleasant undertones. That's not what "North London" is a code-word for, though.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
Are they not referring to North London in the same sense as the Private Eye cartoon 'It's grim up North London'
Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
"North London" or "Islington", when used in a derogatory manner, are broadly synonymous with "poncey". When used as a piece of cod-dailymailese to denigrate politicians or public figures (and it's not just Ed who gets the treatment on that, really it's not), the intended sting is surely an additional charge of hypocrisy. ("If you're so rich, how can you represent the poor? And if your tastes are so luxurious, how can you claim to genuinely care for them?")
I'd agree there are people who don't like the Milibands on grounds which are basically anti-semitic. I think on the whole that it's a private thing, not much of it has crossed over into the media or public life. I'd argue it's been far less of an issue for Miliband than it was for Michael Howard, though the "bacon sandwich incident" sneering had some unpleasant undertones. That's not what "North London" is a code-word for, though.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
Just saw your later post in which you say the difference is tacking on the word "intellectual". That can't be right either. There are plenty of references to "North London intelligencia" and "North London intellectuals" utterly independent of the Milibands, or of its supposed inhabitants being Jewish. It's not even exclusively dailymailese - a bit of googling shows it appears in all kinds of publications including left-leaning ones, not always in a derogatory context, and sometimes as a self-description.
I tried googling and one name that crops up a lot it is "John Snow". I don't think the usage is restricted to politicians. "Islington set" wasn't exclusively used to refer to pols either, more like a local social landscape - something more akin to a dinner party circuit - through which particular ideas and tastes would percolate.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I am with the Jewish Chronicle on this one. It's a term heavy with innuendo:
Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
"North London" or "Islington", when used in a derogatory manner, are broadly synonymous with "poncey". When used as a piece of cod-dailymailese to denigrate politicians or public figures (and it's not just Ed who gets the treatment on that, really it's not), the intended sting is surely an additional charge of hypocrisy. ("If you're so rich, how can you represent the poor? And if your tastes are so luxurious, how can you claim to genuinely care for them?")
I'd agree there are people who don't like the Milibands on grounds which are basically anti-semitic. I think on the whole that it's a private thing, not much of it has crossed over into the media or public life. I'd argue it's been far less of an issue for Miliband than it was for Michael Howard, though the "bacon sandwich incident" sneering had some unpleasant undertones. That's not what "North London" is a code-word for, though.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
Just saw your later post in which you say the difference is tacking on the word "intellectual". That can't be right either. There are plenty of references to "North London intelligencia" and "North London intellectuals" utterly independent of the Milibands, or of its supposed inhabitants being Jewish. It's not even exclusively dailymailese - a bit of googling shows it appears in all kinds of publications including left-leaning ones, not always in a derogatory context, and sometimes as a self-description.
I tried googling and one name that crops up a lot it is "John Snow". I don't think the usage is restricted to politicians. "Islington set" wasn't exclusively used to refer to pols either, more like a local social landscape - something more akin to a dinner party circuit - through which particular ideas and tastes would percolate.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I am with the Jewish Chronicle on this one. It's a term heavy with innuendo:
Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
"North London" or "Islington", when used in a derogatory manner, are broadly synonymous with "poncey". When used as a piece of cod-dailymailese to denigrate politicians or public figures (and it's not just Ed who gets the treatment on that, really it's not), the intended sting is surely an additional charge of hypocrisy. ("If you're so rich, how can you represent the poor? And if your tastes are so luxurious, how can you claim to genuinely care for them?")
I'd agree there are people who don't like the Milibands on grounds which are basically anti-semitic. I think on the whole that it's a private thing, not much of it has crossed over into the media or public life. I'd argue it's been far less of an issue for Miliband than it was for Michael Howard, though the "bacon sandwich incident" sneering had some unpleasant undertones. That's not what "North London" is a code-word for, though.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
Just saw your later post in which you say the difference is tacking on the word "intellectual". That can't be right either. There are plenty of references to "North London intelligencia" and "North London intellectuals" utterly independent of the Milibands, or of its supposed inhabitants being Jewish. It's not even exclusively dailymailese - a bit of googling shows it appears in all kinds of publications including left-leaning ones, not always in a derogatory context, and sometimes as a self-description.
I tried googling and one name that crops up a lot it is "John Snow". I don't think the usage is restricted to politicians. "Islington set" wasn't exclusively used to refer to pols either, more like a local social landscape - something more akin to a dinner party circuit - through which particular ideas and tastes would percolate.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I am with the Jewish Chronicle on this one. It's a term heavy with innuendo:
Hamas is the big threat, as they see it (rightly). If the Palestinians rise up against Hamas then Hamas becomes less of a threat.
I doubt anyone in the Israeli government thinks that. Remove Hamas and they are more than likely to be replaced by something even worse.
I wouldn't claim to know what the Israeli government thinks. But I'm not convinced by "whoever replaces Hamas will be worse" idea. It's true that Israel can do a certain amount of business with Hamas. But it could do more business, however grudgingly, with Fatah - and once upon a time, Fatah had a pretty powerful position in Gaza.
It is true that there have been some salafist groups (think al-qaeda) attempting to drum up support among Palestinians. And usefully for Israel, before relations with Hamas flared up, Hamas had cracked down pretty hard on the salafists. My understanding (mostly gleaned via jihadica.com) was that these groups were very, very small though and didn't enjoy anything close to widespread support. They may be responsible for some attacks on Israel but I'd be very surprised if Israeli calculations were premised on a possible salafist takeover of Gaza. I'd also be somewhat surprised if they expected Fatah to take it back over, bearing in mind that Fatah's relative unpopularity in Gaza (not least for Fatah acted against Hamas in the West Bank, which led to accusations of them being collaborators with the Israeli occupation).
I'm not sure Israel are trying to leave a void for someone else to fill. As far as I can tell, they haven't tried completely eradicating Hamas, rather their focus is on reducing the capacity of Hamas to threaten Israel?
Sorry but I can't agree with all of that, Southam.
Who else gets called a North London intellectual? Name one other Labour luvvie politician. Apart, perhaps, from David Miliband.
Just saw your later post in which you say the difference is tacking on the word "intellectual". That can't be right either. There are plenty of references to "North London intelligencia" and "North London intellectuals" utterly independent of the Milibands, or of its supposed inhabitants being Jewish. It's not even exclusively dailymailese - a bit of googling shows it appears in all kinds of publications including left-leaning ones, not always in a derogatory context, and sometimes as a self-description.
I tried googling and one name that crops up a lot it is "John Snow". I don't think the usage is restricted to politicians. "Islington set" wasn't exclusively used to refer to pols either, more like a local social landscape - something more akin to a dinner party circuit - through which particular ideas and tastes would percolate.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I am with the Jewish Chronicle on this one. It's a term heavy with innuendo:
Took me a while to find one too, but I dismissed it as it isnt a neutral source
Misunderstand away, at least you don't have to admit youre wrong!
Indeed - Jews can't be neutral!!
I am afraid we disagree. I think you're wrong.
I didnt say Jews couldn't be neutral, but if the only thing you can find after 20 minutes of googling is one piece from a religious newspaper it isn't very convincing . Even the piece you quoted said it was reluctant to think it was the case.
I have shown on here tonight, lots of evidence that North London is stereotyped as being "intellectual" and a bit "trendy leftie", from unbiased sources, londonwide polls, nothing to with my own opinion of the place, which happens to be a positive one. Generally that's what people mean by "North London"
But then again, you never admit you are wrong, so why bother, I guess
Are we still pretending Israel is a legitimate state? Rather then just some convenient place to dump the European Jews and hope they play nicely with the people that live there? Bunch of God bothering murderers.
Are we still pretending Israel is a legitimate state? Rather then just some convenient place to dump the European Jews and hope they play nicely with the people that live there? Bunch of God bothering murderers.
UN resolution 181 of 1947 called for creation of a Jewish and an Arab state in Palestine.
@iSam - I googled after MBE mentioned it. It took me about one minute to find. But I'm not sure you can describe the JC as a religious newspaper. Lots of Jews who read and write for the JC are atheists. It reports on issues that affect and interest jews, not on religion - though there is religious coverage.
I am sorry you don't get the concept of disagreement. I have no doubt that a minority of people view North London - where a lot of Jews live - as being "intellectual". There was no need for you to prove that to me. We agree on that one.
Are we still pretending Israel is a legitimate state? Rather then just some convenient place to dump the European Jews and hope they play nicely with the people that live there? Bunch of God bothering murderers.
The guilt of the Allies led to the creation of Israel. Most Eurpoean Jews had never been to Palestine.
Now the Palestinians suffering from these "immigrants" !!!!!!!
Are we still pretending Israel is a legitimate state? Rather then just some convenient place to dump the European Jews and hope they play nicely with the people that live there? Bunch of God bothering murderers.
UN resolution 181 of 1947 called for creation of a Jewish and an Arab state in Palestine.
Are we still pretending Israel is a legitimate state? Rather then just some convenient place to dump the European Jews and hope they play nicely with the people that live there? Bunch of God bothering murderers.
The guilt of the Allies led to the creation of Israel. Most Eurpoean Jews had never been to Palestine.
Now the Palestinians suffering from these "immigrants" !!!!!!!
Absolutely, we laid the foundations for WW3 exactly the way WW2 was made by the treaty of Versailles. And all because of some BS fairy tale.
I'm quite happy not to press the point - what follows is really my own defence, I have been known to rib folk using similar language - but I would point out that the JC piece doesn't specifically decry the use of the phrase "North London". The very fact that they put "North London" in quotes is specifically because they are recalling the existence of a "North London" stereotype, apparently independent of the Milibands. Google assures me that the phrase "North London intellectual" was in established use before the year 2000, well before Ed was in the frame, and I can't see from other usage any connotations of Judaism.
The JC article, very fairly in my view, is actually critical of the general tenor of the Daily Mail piece, and questioning if a non-Jew would have received the same treatment. But it doesn't pick out any particular phrase used in the Mail article, including "North London", as anti-semitic in and of itself (quite the contrary, as another JC piece points out there was nothing "obvious", more a general "whiff").
I can understand why you might see something anti-semitic in the phrase "North London intellectual" (two two-word combinations that give you a clue you landed on the website of a nutter are references to "Jewish bankers" and "Jewish intellectuals"; worst of the lot is probably "Jewish financiers"!). I wonder whether you might be unusually sensitive to the word from other contexts perhaps? But it is a phrase with historical usage well beyond Ed Miliband, and if it has stuck to him, that might just be because it's unusually apt. Whether intended as a slur or no! But even as slurs go, I don't think it's an anti-semitic one, intentionally or otherwise. The JC piece you linked to doesn't actually claim it is.
@iSam - I googled after MBE mentioned it. It took me about one minute to find. But I'm not sure you can describe the JC as a religious newspaper. Lots of Jews who read and write for the JC are atheists. It reports on issues that affect and interest jews, not on religion - though there is religious coverage.
I am sorry you don't get the concept of disagreement. I have no doubt that a minority of people view North London - where a lot of Jews live - as being "intellectual". There was no need for you to prove that to me. We agree on that one.
Ok well look its not important enough to have big ding dong about, you can think what you like its not a big deal really
Try to ease off the patronising smug comments a bit eh?
Its amazing how much help the rest of the Arab world wants to give the Palestinians of Gaza right now. None, not one spit.
They are sh*t on the Arab shoe and it shows every time there is such a flare up. No one amongst your main line Arab arbiters, Egypt, the Gulf states etc seems to be tripping over themselves keen on this humanitarian ceasefire.
Hamas are, because PR aside, they are under pressure on the ground, and the Israelis have got to about halfway in terms of the measures they could take.
Also some facts for the uninitiated who think the UK TV news media are the be all and end all. Hamas didn't much fancy this shoot em up either. They remember what happened to Hizbollah in Southern Lebanon after what the UK media claimed was a desperate Israeli campaign in 2006. Hizbollah have been relatively quiet since because they lost years of work on their preset defences and they lost a swathe of their best men. They've been clear they weren't much interested in getting into it again in a hurry.
Hamas, however, were getting outflanked by the likes of Islamic Jihad and the conveniently recently formed Al Sabirin who kept on firing when there was talk of reducing tensions, so Hamas decided to go for the 'armed struggle' route.
Surprisingly enough the Middle East experts on here don't seem to have mentioned any of this, mainly because they actually know nothing at all about the intricacies.
I'm quite happy not to press the point - what follows is really my own defence, I have been known to rib folk using similar language - but I would point out that the JC piece doesn't specifically decry the use of the phrase "North London". The very fact that they put "North London" in quotes is specifically because they are recalling the existence of a "North London" stereotype, apparently independent of the Milibands. Google assures me that the phrase "North London intellectual" was in established use before the year 2000, well before Ed was in the frame, and I can't see from other usage any connotations of Judaism.
The JC article, very fairly in my view, is actually critical of the general tenor of the Daily Mail piece, and questioning if a non-Jew would have received the same treatment. But it doesn't pick out any particular phrase used in the Mail article, including "North London", as anti-semitic in and of itself (quite the contrary, as another JC piece points out there was nothing "obvious", more a general "whiff").
I can understand why you might see something anti-semitic in the phrase "North London intellectual" (two two-word combinations that give you a clue you landed on the website of a nutter are references to "Jewish bankers" and "Jewish intellectuals"; worst of the lot is probably "Jewish financiers"!). I wonder whether you might be unusually sensitive to the word from other contexts perhaps? But it is a phrase with historical usage well beyond Ed Miliband, and if it has stuck to him, that might just be because it's unusually apt. Whether intended as a slur or no! But even as slurs go, I don't think it's an anti-semitic one, intentionally or otherwise. The JC piece you linked to doesn't actually claim it is.
You are wasting your time, he wont admit he was wrong, despite all the evidence, polling etc
@iSam - I googled after MBE mentioned it. It took me about one minute to find. But I'm not sure you can describe the JC as a religious newspaper. Lots of Jews who read and write for the JC are atheists. It reports on issues that affect and interest jews, not on religion - though there is religious coverage.
A very fair description. Probably better to regard the JC as the Jewish version of the "black newspaper" The Voice - a community paper in essence which also covers faith issues. As opposed to a relgious newspaper like (for Catholics) The Tablet.
Many years ago I used to find the JC a very interesting read - offered a different perspective on things to the mainstream press- but its journalism seems to have suffered, I'm guessing from headcount cuts.
@iSam - I googled after MBE mentioned it. It took me about one minute to find. But I'm not sure you can describe the JC as a religious newspaper. Lots of Jews who read and write for the JC are atheists. It reports on issues that affect and interest jews, not on religion - though there is religious coverage.
I am sorry you don't get the concept of disagreement. I have no doubt that a minority of people view North London - where a lot of Jews live - as being "intellectual". There was no need for you to prove that to me. We agree on that one.
Ok well look its not important enough to have big ding dong about, you can think what you like its not a big deal really
Try to ease off the patronising smug comments a bit eh?
@iSam - I googled after MBE mentioned it. It took me about one minute to find. But I'm not sure you can describe the JC as a religious newspaper. Lots of Jews who read and write for the JC are atheists. It reports on issues that affect and interest jews, not on religion - though there is religious coverage.
I am sorry you don't get the concept of disagreement. I have no doubt that a minority of people view North London - where a lot of Jews live - as being "intellectual". There was no need for you to prove that to me. We agree on that one.
Ok well look its not important enough to have big ding dong about, you can think what you like its not a big deal really
Try to ease off the patronising smug comments a bit eh?
@iSam - I googled after MBE mentioned it. It took me about one minute to find. But I'm not sure you can describe the JC as a religious newspaper. Lots of Jews who read and write for the JC are atheists. It reports on issues that affect and interest jews, not on religion - though there is religious coverage.
I am sorry you don't get the concept of disagreement. I have no doubt that a minority of people view North London - where a lot of Jews live - as being "intellectual". There was no need for you to prove that to me. We agree on that one.
Ok well look its not important enough to have big ding dong about, you can think what you like its not a big deal really
Try to ease off the patronising smug comments a bit eh?
@iSam - I googled after MBE mentioned it. It took me about one minute to find. But I'm not sure you can describe the JC as a religious newspaper. Lots of Jews who read and write for the JC are atheists. It reports on issues that affect and interest jews, not on religion - though there is religious coverage.
I am sorry you don't get the concept of disagreement. I have no doubt that a minority of people view North London - where a lot of Jews live - as being "intellectual". There was no need for you to prove that to me. We agree on that one.
Ok well look its not important enough to have big ding dong about, you can think what you like its not a big deal really
Try to ease off the patronising smug comments a bit eh?
One or two eggs with those chips?
Night all.
Have a nice hangover in the morning x
So much more eloquent than the original version!
Haha yes.
Well its not worth getting banned over, but jeez what an annoying smart alec!
At least it looks like BobaFett has left again... wonder what he will call himself next time? Another peculiar creature
'Its amazing how much help the rest of the Arab world wants to give the Palestinians of Gaza right now. None, not one spit. '
Spot on and it's been like that for a long time.
The Gulf states have never forgiven the Palestinians for their betrayal in the first Gulf war and Kuwait alone expelled almost all Palestinians which had made up a large chunk of its population.
Even before that, the GCC states refused to grant citizenship to Palestinians even if they had lived there for many decades,same applied to Palestinian children born in the GCC.
Lebanon has never forgiven them for trashing their country & Jordan regards them as a permanent threat.
You are wasting your time, he wont admit he was wrong, despite all the evidence, polling etc
I'm not saying Southam is wrong and I'm not trying to get an admission of wrongness out of him either. Issues of language sensitivity are quite subjective - there are often undertones attached to stuff that a speaker can't see, but a listener can. Even very subtle things can make a difference - two words might share a common dictionary definition, but in practice they're not synonyms because they somehow carry different meanings or associations. I read somewhere that linguists think it's something to do with how you remember details about previous times you encountered a word (neighbouring words, the general context of where you found it written, the tone of the writing). So ghostly remnants of other writing, re-shades your understanding of the word you're currently reading. And different people will bring different memories and understandings, and so they'll reach a slightly different comprehension of a text. Moreover, since they haven't had the same linguistic exposure as the original author did, nobody can quite replicate what the original author had in their head, and reproduce the shades of meaning the writer was trying to conjure.
Usually that's a curious but harmless state of affairs, perhaps mildly frustrating. On matters of offence, it's rather more serious. I must admit a certain sympathy for people who call language out as racist, then get ridiculed for being "PC" or "seeing word associations which just aren't there". To the complainant, those word associations may have been natural and blatant - once seen, they can't be unseen. I have a similar level of sympathy for people who write something entirely innocent of malice, then get accused of writing something offensive for the same reason.
As a general rule, I think trying to get someone to admit being wrong on the internet is a fool's errand anyway. But I ought to know. I only adopted this moniker when I de-lurked because my prompt to do so was being incensed by the apparent idiocy of another poster (who left the site years ago). Reading what he wrote made my head hurt and if he'd said it aloud my ears would have boiled over. For the first month or so of posting, pretty much all I ever did was write furious ripostes to him. Not that I got him to admit he was wrong of course!
Call it like you see it. Essex is pants, it gets more pants the further inside the M25 you go. FACT
That's a bit harsh. The furthest bit of Essex from London is the Tendring peninsula, but also the most deprived. Arguably the lousiest. If you thought Tiptree was bad, go pay a visit to Jaywick. That place is, sadly, awe-inspiring.
Chigwell and Buckhurst Hill are inside the M25, and have a well-deserved reputation. Gidea Park and Hornchurch are pretty nice. Emerson Park is well inside the urban area, but is strikingly posh. (Perhaps surprisingly so based on its proximity to Dagenham and to Romford!)
Call it like you see it. Essex is pants, it gets more pants the further inside the M25 you go. FACT
That's a bit harsh. The furthest bit of Essex from London is the Tendring peninsula, but also the most deprived. Arguably the lousiest. If you thought Tiptree was bad, go pay a visit to Jaywick. That place is, sadly, awe-inspiring.
Chigwell and Buckhurst Hill are inside the M25, and have a well-deserved reputation. Gidea Park and Hornchurch are pretty nice. Emerson Park is well inside the urban area, but is strikingly posh. (Perhaps surprisingly so based on its proximity to Dagenham and to Romford!)
Those peninsulas are weird and spooky. I remember the teachers in the schools there used to blame their low position in the league tables on in-breeding.
Another awesome place is Bradwell, with the abandoned airstrips, the little 7th Century chapel and the disused nuclear power station.
What a peculiarly bizarre yet interesting thread. It's almost as if we can solve all the world's problems by adapting SeanT's idea of hurtling the entire Middle-East out into space, but sending all farmers and North-Londoners and pretentious middle-class people out into space with them. It would be a bit like the first of the three spaceships in the Hitch-Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy, with its crew of hairdressers and accountants and etcetera.
I was phoned up by a polling company during the day. I think it was called GSRQ (or G-something-something-Q anyway).
She asked me: On a scale from 0 to 10, how likely would I be to vote if there were a general election now? Which party would I be likely to vote for? On a scale from 0 to 10, how likely would I be to vote for each party? (I said 10 for Conservative, and "0 for everything else" (to save her time) Which party did I vote for in 2010? Would I be active at election time by delivering leaflets, displaying posters etc?
She didn't sound very professional because when I said that I had voted OMRLP in 2010 (and explained that I had been the candidate) she laughed at length, and after I had answered each question she said "fab", as if she wanted to indicate that she approved of my answers.
I was phoned up by a polling company during the day. I think it was called GSRQ (or G-something-something-Q anyway).
She asked me: On a scale from 0 to 10, how likely would I be to vote if there were a general election now? Which party would I be likely to vote for? On a scale from 0 to 10, how likely would I be to vote for each party? (I said 10 for Conservative, and "0 for everything else" (to save her time) Which party did I vote for in 2010? Would I be active at election time by delivering leaflets, displaying posters etc?
She didn't sound very professional because when I said that I had voted OMRLP in 2010 (and explained that I had been the candidate) she laughed at length, and after I had answered each question she said "fab", as if she wanted to indicate that she approved of my answers.
" ...... after I had answered each question she said "fab", as if she wanted to indicate that she approved of my answers."
Perhaps you should have responded - "I take it that you're a Tory too then?"
On the very infrequent occasion when I have been telephoned by a polling organisation, be it seeking my opinion on political matters or concerning products/services etc, I always start off by asking how much they propose to pay me. This usually brings the discussion to an early conclusion.
" when I said that I had voted OMRLP in 2010 (and explained that I had been the candidate) she laughed at length."
But surely the only point in being a member, not to mention an official candidate for the Official Monster Raving Loony Party was indeed to provoke other human beings to laugh?
Call it like you see it. Essex is pants, it gets more pants the further inside the M25 you go. FACT
That's a bit harsh. The furthest bit of Essex from London is the Tendring peninsula, but also the most deprived. Arguably the lousiest. If you thought Tiptree was bad, go pay a visit to Jaywick. That place is, sadly, awe-inspiring.
Chigwell and Buckhurst Hill are inside the M25, and have a well-deserved reputation. Gidea Park and Hornchurch are pretty nice. Emerson Park is well inside the urban area, but is strikingly posh. (Perhaps surprisingly so based on its proximity to Dagenham and to Romford!)
I had a client in Jaywick. I concur! Yes, ok, parts of it aren't too bad, but I has an awful time in Essex, so I'm heavily biased agin it
Comments
Southcote (Reading) result:
LAB - 59.8% (+2.3)
CON - 20.0% (-8.0)
UKIP - 13.3% (+13.3)
GRN - 4.1% (-5.5)
LDEM - 2.9% (-2.0)
And with that, good night all.
Con 619 LD 510 UKIP 441 Lab 147 Ind 98 Green 65
His Dad is called an intellectual, but he was wasn't he?
Ed and David are intellectuals.. and they are from North London!!
I tried googling and one name that crops up a lot it is "John Snow". I don't think the usage is restricted to politicians. "Islington set" wasn't exclusively used to refer to pols either, more like a local social landscape - something more akin to a dinner party circuit - through which particular ideas and tastes would percolate.
David Gold @davidgold · 1h
I'm sorry to inform you that AC has torn ankle ligaments and will have an operation tomorrow. Andy will be back in about 4 months. dg
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/111998/daily-mail-should-be-ashamed-its-vicious-slur-ralph-miliband
Misunderstand away, at least you don't have to admit youre wrong!
I am afraid we disagree. I think you're wrong.
It is true that there have been some salafist groups (think al-qaeda) attempting to drum up support among Palestinians. And usefully for Israel, before relations with Hamas flared up, Hamas had cracked down pretty hard on the salafists. My understanding (mostly gleaned via jihadica.com) was that these groups were very, very small though and didn't enjoy anything close to widespread support. They may be responsible for some attacks on Israel but I'd be very surprised if Israeli calculations were premised on a possible salafist takeover of Gaza. I'd also be somewhat surprised if they expected Fatah to take it back over, bearing in mind that Fatah's relative unpopularity in Gaza (not least for Fatah acted against Hamas in the West Bank, which led to accusations of them being collaborators with the Israeli occupation).
I'm not sure Israel are trying to leave a void for someone else to fill. As far as I can tell, they haven't tried completely eradicating Hamas, rather their focus is on reducing the capacity of Hamas to threaten Israel?
I have shown on here tonight, lots of evidence that North London is stereotyped as being "intellectual" and a bit "trendy leftie", from unbiased sources, londonwide polls, nothing to with my own opinion of the place, which happens to be a positive one. Generally that's what people mean by "North London"
But then again, you never admit you are wrong, so why bother, I guess
Looking around the store for a sympathy card for the loss of his dog, they had a Jewish one!
Hornchurch is more like EastEnders than the East End is, but I don't think we can say its in London
Bunch of God bothering murderers.
BTW The site of the film factory has been a Sainsbury's since the mid-80s!
I am sorry you don't get the concept of disagreement. I have no doubt that a minority of people view North London - where a lot of Jews live - as being "intellectual". There was no need for you to prove that to me. We agree on that one.
Now the Palestinians suffering from these "immigrants" !!!!!!!
The JC article, very fairly in my view, is actually critical of the general tenor of the Daily Mail piece, and questioning if a non-Jew would have received the same treatment. But it doesn't pick out any particular phrase used in the Mail article, including "North London", as anti-semitic in and of itself (quite the contrary, as another JC piece points out there was nothing "obvious", more a general "whiff").
I can understand why you might see something anti-semitic in the phrase "North London intellectual" (two two-word combinations that give you a clue you landed on the website of a nutter are references to "Jewish bankers" and "Jewish intellectuals"; worst of the lot is probably "Jewish financiers"!). I wonder whether you might be unusually sensitive to the word from other contexts perhaps? But it is a phrase with historical usage well beyond Ed Miliband, and if it has stuck to him, that might just be because it's unusually apt. Whether intended as a slur or no! But even as slurs go, I don't think it's an anti-semitic one, intentionally or otherwise. The JC piece you linked to doesn't actually claim it is.
Try to ease off the patronising smug comments a bit eh?
They are sh*t on the Arab shoe and it shows every time there is such a flare up. No one amongst your main line Arab arbiters, Egypt, the Gulf states etc seems to be tripping over themselves keen on this humanitarian ceasefire.
Hamas are, because PR aside, they are under pressure on the ground, and the Israelis have got to about halfway in terms of the measures they could take.
Also some facts for the uninitiated who think the UK TV news media are the be all and end all. Hamas didn't much fancy this shoot em up either. They remember what happened to Hizbollah in Southern Lebanon after what the UK media claimed was a desperate Israeli campaign in 2006. Hizbollah have been relatively quiet since because they lost years of work on their preset defences and they lost a swathe of their best men. They've been clear they weren't much interested in getting into it again in a hurry.
Hamas, however, were getting outflanked by the likes of Islamic Jihad and the conveniently recently formed Al Sabirin who kept on firing when there was talk of reducing tensions, so Hamas decided to go for the 'armed struggle' route.
Surprisingly enough the Middle East experts on here don't seem to have mentioned any of this, mainly because they actually know nothing at all about the intricacies.
You are wasting your time, he wont admit he was wrong, despite all the evidence, polling etc
Many years ago I used to find the JC a very interesting read - offered a different perspective on things to the mainstream press- but its journalism seems to have suffered, I'm guessing from headcount cuts.
Night all.
Honestly, it was quite a few years ago so can't remember my opinion of it.
Well its not worth getting banned over, but jeez what an annoying smart alec!
At least it looks like BobaFett has left again... wonder what he will call himself next time? Another peculiar creature
Tiptree and the Tolleshunts were tolerable.
This is what an anti-semitic political campaign looks like.
High Six!!
Indeed.
What a night for an argument! I only posted the famers market ting to try and clear things up about North London and Ed Miliband!
I think the sensitivity from the Labourites told its own story...
Anyway Chaps, goodnight and God bless
'Its amazing how much help the rest of the Arab world wants to give the Palestinians of Gaza right now. None, not one spit. '
Spot on and it's been like that for a long time.
The Gulf states have never forgiven the Palestinians for their betrayal in the first Gulf war and Kuwait alone expelled almost all Palestinians which had made up a large chunk of its population.
Even before that, the GCC states refused to grant citizenship to Palestinians even if they had lived there for many decades,same applied to Palestinian children born in the GCC.
Lebanon has never forgiven them for trashing their country & Jordan regards them as a permanent threat.
Usually that's a curious but harmless state of affairs, perhaps mildly frustrating. On matters of offence, it's rather more serious. I must admit a certain sympathy for people who call language out as racist, then get ridiculed for being "PC" or "seeing word associations which just aren't there". To the complainant, those word associations may have been natural and blatant - once seen, they can't be unseen. I have a similar level of sympathy for people who write something entirely innocent of malice, then get accused of writing something offensive for the same reason.
As a general rule, I think trying to get someone to admit being wrong on the internet is a fool's errand anyway. But I ought to know. I only adopted this moniker when I de-lurked because my prompt to do so was being incensed by the apparent idiocy of another poster (who left the site years ago). Reading what he wrote made my head hurt and if he'd said it aloud my ears would have boiled over. For the first month or so of posting, pretty much all I ever did was write furious ripostes to him. Not that I got him to admit he was wrong of course!
That's a bit harsh. The furthest bit of Essex from London is the Tendring peninsula, but also the most deprived. Arguably the lousiest. If you thought Tiptree was bad, go pay a visit to Jaywick. That place is, sadly, awe-inspiring.
Chigwell and Buckhurst Hill are inside the M25, and have a well-deserved reputation. Gidea Park and Hornchurch are pretty nice. Emerson Park is well inside the urban area, but is strikingly posh. (Perhaps surprisingly so based on its proximity to Dagenham and to Romford!)
Another awesome place is Bradwell, with the abandoned airstrips, the little 7th Century chapel and the disused nuclear power station.
I was phoned up by a polling company during the day. I think it was called GSRQ (or G-something-something-Q anyway).
She asked me:
On a scale from 0 to 10, how likely would I be to vote if there were a general election now?
Which party would I be likely to vote for?
On a scale from 0 to 10, how likely would I be to vote for each party?
(I said 10 for Conservative, and "0 for everything else" (to save her time)
Which party did I vote for in 2010?
Would I be active at election time by delivering leaflets, displaying posters etc?
She didn't sound very professional because when I said that I had voted OMRLP in 2010 (and explained that I had been the candidate) she laughed at length, and after I had answered each question she said "fab", as if she wanted to indicate that she approved of my answers.
Does anybody know who/what "G??Q" is?
Perhaps you should have responded - "I take it that you're a Tory too then?"
On the very infrequent occasion when I have been telephoned by a polling organisation, be it seeking my opinion on political matters or concerning products/services etc, I always start off by asking how much they propose to pay me.
This usually brings the discussion to an early conclusion.
But surely the only point in being a member, not to mention an official candidate for the Official Monster Raving Loony Party was indeed to provoke other human beings to laugh?
Yes, ok, parts of it aren't too bad, but I has an awful time in Essex, so I'm heavily biased agin it