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  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    tim said:

    Socrates said:

    How on Earth do you only get eleven years for rape and slavery?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22552912

    Three years more than the average sentence for rape

    Rape sentences now average eight years, Ministry of Justice figures show
    Rapists now face longer in jail than those convicted of manslaughter, according to 2010 criminal justice statistics

    The 2010 criminal justice statistics show that the average sentence for rape of a woman was just over 97 months, two months higher than the 2009 figure and significantly higher than the 78 months – or six-and-a-half years – that was typical in 1996 when the Conservatives were last in power.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/may/26/rape-sentence-average-eight-years-justice-figures


    8 years for rape is pathetic.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    What an appalling traitor. How come he never went to prison for his crimes?

    Once uncovered he did a deal with his interrogators in the 1960s in return for giving up other spies. He got full immunity and a 15 year cover up.

    By 1979 his past was catching up with him and he tried to block publication of a book about him.

    He was foiled when PM Margaret Thatcher used parliamentary privilege to expose him. It was one of her first acts and shook the establishment to its core.

    What a gal.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,961
    taffys said:

    You remember the Cambridge spies because they were successful - even rising as far as being Surveyor of the King's pictures.

    Depends what you mean by successful. Anthony Blunt alone could have lost Britain the war.

    He passed his Russian handlers Ultra decrypts of enigma machines, as well as every last detail on the huge deception ring MI5 was running on where the DDay landings would take place.

    This means the Germans would have only needed a spy in the Kremlin for us to have lose tht U boat war and for D-day to turn into a complete and utter bloodbath.

    Even so, the information he gave his Russian handlers was so detailed and comprehensive, it counted against his credibility in the paranoid Kremlin. And even more luckily the Germans had no Russian spy.

    He did this even after getting the best of everything from his country.

    People who say immigrants don;t have our country at heart really should look at the actions of some of what we call 'our own'.

    Oh indeed, they were hideous people attracted to helping a cause that was not only wrong, but also utterly immoral (*). I'm not defending them as people, or the damage they did.

    But they managed to operate for many years without being caught. And even when some were caught, the others were not necessarily rounded up at the same time. The whys, wherefores and even the full members of the ring will be debated forever.

    Yet there is no equivalent for Oxford. The question is why? It is possible that there was such a ring, and that it has never been exposed. This must be doubtful after the changes post-1989. Or perhaps the Russians wanted a different type of person - the Cambridge graduate, rather than one from Oxford. Or, more likely, the Russians struck lucky in Cambridge before the war, and one recruit led to another.

    Who knows.

    (*) I am talking about the Russian Communist system here, not the Russian people. I've been continually amazed by what Russian scientists and engineers managed to achieve despite, not because, of the system they worked under. The people were badly let down, first of all by the czarist autocracy, and then the post-revolution Communist system.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Gasman said:

    On topic, the bias will be worse because the boundaries haven't been updated to take account of the continual drift of people out of the dumps that still vote Labour, so the electorates in Labour seats will be even smaller than they were last time.

    We don't seem to have the "ghost town" phenomenon that say the USA has. You can plot the population of some of these Northern towns/constituencies since 1979 - frightening decline - not even mass unfettered immigration as beloved by Mandy has reversed the emptying (perhaps in somecases it has accelerated it).
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    taffys said:

    You remember the Cambridge spies because they were successful - even rising as far as being Surveyor of the King's pictures.

    Depends what you mean by successful. Anthony Blunt alone could have lost Britain the war.

    He passed his Russian handlers Ultra decrypts of enigma machines, as well as every last detail on the huge deception ring MI5 was running on where the DDay landings would take place.

    This means the Germans would have only needed a spy in the Kremlin for us to have lose tht U boat war and for D-day to turn into a complete and utter bloodbath.

    Even so, the information he gave his Russian handlers was so detailed and comprehensive, it counted against his credibility in the paranoid Kremlin. And even more luckily the Germans had no Russian spy.

    He did this even after getting the best of everything from his country.

    People who say immigrants don;t have our country at heart really should look at the actions of some of what we call 'our own'.

    Oh indeed, they were hideous people attracted to helping a cause that was not only wrong, but also utterly immoral (*). I'm not defending them as people, or the damage they did.

    But they managed to operate for many years without being caught. And even when some were caught, the others were not necessarily rounded up at the same time. The whys, wherefores and even the full members of the ring will be debated forever.

    Yet there is no equivalent for Oxford. The question is why? It is possible that there was such a ring, and that it has never been exposed. This must be doubtful after the changes post-1989. Or perhaps the Russians wanted a different type of person - the Cambridge graduate, rather than one from Oxford. Or, more likely, the Russians struck lucky in Cambridge before the war, and one recruit led to another.

    Who knows.

    (*) I am talking about the Russian Communist system here, not the Russian people. I've been continually amazed by what Russian scientists and engineers managed to achieve despite, not because, of the system they worked under. The people were badly let down, first of all by the czarist autocracy, and then the post-revolution Communist system.
    There were probably many more who weren't caught and went on to fall off boats or learn about IHT laws.


  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    tim said:

    Socrates said:

    How on Earth do you only get eleven years for rape and slavery?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22552912

    Three years more than the average sentence for rape

    Rape sentences now average eight years, Ministry of Justice figures show
    Rapists now face longer in jail than those convicted of manslaughter, according to 2010 criminal justice statistics

    The 2010 criminal justice statistics show that the average sentence for rape of a woman was just over 97 months, two months higher than the 2009 figure and significantly higher than the 78 months – or six-and-a-half years – that was typical in 1996 when the Conservatives were last in power.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/may/26/rape-sentence-average-eight-years-justice-figures


    It's both stunning that rape only gets eight years and that slavery only counts for three more than that. Crimes this violent should be getting decades. Sadly the establishment seems to think rehabilitation is so much more important than either punishment or deterrent.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,053
    edited May 2013
    taffys said:

    And even more luckily the Germans had no Russian spy.

    The Germans had spies in Russia, unfortunately for them their intelligence operations were crap. Why the Nazis' intelligence effort was so mediocre compared to the rest of their war machine is one of the lesser mysteries of the war; probably cut-throat (sometimes literally) competition between agencies and the Abwehr plotting against Hitler much of the time had something to do with it.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Ian Katz, the new Newsnight editor, is married to Justine Roberts, founder of Mumsnet, a forum for the sort of Mummies who ought to strike terror into the heart of any sentient being.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300
    edited May 2013
    Just to keep you all informed (Promised Nick P I would)

    I've been into hospital and had my operation to remove the pre cancerous lesion from my mouth.

    The experiance was very good. Had a great level care.

    When I arrived I went through a minor surgery admission ward - Which basically consisted of a cubicle, a chair and an operating trolley - I had a nurse in and out, an anethetist visited me (and wrongly told me I would be allowed home that afternoon) and my Speciailist popped in to see me too (he correctly told me I'd be in hospital overnight)

    Overall, it was fine, but I found the admission unit rather impersonal. Wasn't like being on a proper hospital ward.

    The operating theatres are just down the corridor from the admission unit, so I walked to the anesthetic room, which was different from the last Op I had 15 years ago - But it's fine, didn't mind walking to anesthetic room (though it's a little bit like walking The Green Mile LOL)

    After the Op I was taken to a proper, bona fida ward and the care was excellent. Nurses were great. Stayed in overnight then went home the next day with two different mouth washes.

    Everything went very smoothly and as I say level of care was very good. I didn't leave with any superbugs and have recovered well at home.

    Everything has gone fine.

    Will be going back for an Out-Patient appointment in August and I'm told they will be keeping a close eye on me for the next 3-5 years.

    Overall experiance 7/10 - Just knocked a couple of points off for being given the wrong information by the anethetist and the impersonal nature of the admission unit.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Cyclefree said:

    Ian Katz, the new Newsnight editor, is married to Justine Roberts, founder of Mumsnet, a forum for the sort of Mummies who ought to strike terror into the heart of any sentient being.

    http://order-order.com/2013/05/16/katzs-top-notch-lefty-credentials/

    "Fair, balanced and impartial Ian Katz will have no trouble fitting in at his new role as Newsnight editor. He is reunited with former Guardian colleague Allegra Stratton and, in Paul Mason, he has an ex-Trotskyist Workers’ Power group member as his Economics Editor.

    Despite being a neighbour of Boris, Katz certainly has top drawer left-wing credentials. Back in 2004, he was editor of the Guardian’s G2 magazine during their infamous ‘Operation Clark County’ plot to swing the state of Ohio in favour of John Kerry and against George W. Bush. Katz organised thousands of letters written by lefty Britons to be sent to individual voters in Ohio, imploring them to cast their ballot for Kerry.

    The result was uproar, a near diplomatic incident, and victory for Bush. Slate magazine explained Katz’s humiliation at the time:

    “The Guardian editor responsible for the project, Ian Katz, finally wrote a piece on Oct. 21 crying uncle… Katz said he knew all along that the letter-writing project could backfire. So, did it? Almost certainly, yes. In 2000, Al Gore won Clark County by 324 votes. And since Ralph Nader received 1,347 votes, we can assume Gore’s margin would have been larger without Nader on the ballot.

    On Tuesday George Bush won Clark County by 1,620 votes.”

    Add to that Katz’s support for various barmy climate change schemes, including the exploding children shock campaign 10:10. Throw in his views on the ’paranoia’ and ‘complicity’ of ‘idiotic’ Israel and you start to get the picture… "
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Cyclefree said:

    Ian Katz, the new Newsnight editor, is married to Justine Roberts, founder of Mumsnet, a forum for the sort of Mummies who ought to strike terror into the heart of any sentient being.

    Mumsnet gets a bad press. It can be very helpful, informative and downright funny.
    My wife spends a lot of time there.

    Just don't mention netmums.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    Socrates said:

    tim said:

    Socrates said:

    How on Earth do you only get eleven years for rape and slavery?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22552912

    Three years more than the average sentence for rape

    Rape sentences now average eight years, Ministry of Justice figures show
    Rapists now face longer in jail than those convicted of manslaughter, according to 2010 criminal justice statistics

    The 2010 criminal justice statistics show that the average sentence for rape of a woman was just over 97 months, two months higher than the 2009 figure and significantly higher than the 78 months – or six-and-a-half years – that was typical in 1996 when the Conservatives were last in power.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/may/26/rape-sentence-average-eight-years-justice-figures


    It's both stunning that rape only gets eight years and that slavery only counts for three more than that. Crimes this violent should be getting decades. Sadly the establishment seems to think rehabilitation is so much more important than either punishment or deterrent.
    From what you posted he wasn't charged with slavery.
    Punishments are much tougher now than they were in the eighties and nineties and crime is falling and has been for years.Not sure how your deterrent argument fits in there.


    It suggests longer prison sentences work and that's it's thus inexplicable that Ken Clarke opposed more of them.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Only utter tools slag off Paul Mason

    Yes - who could possibly find fault with an ex- Trotskyist Workers’ Power member ?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Cyclefree said:

    Ian Katz, the new Newsnight editor, is married to Justine Roberts, founder of Mumsnet, a forum for the sort of Mummies who ought to strike terror into the heart of any sentient being.

    Mumsnet gets a bad press. It can be very helpful, informative and downright funny.
    My wife spends a lot of time there.

    Just don't mention netmums.
    Broad spectrum of ethnicity on mumsnet ?

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    Ian Katz, the new Newsnight editor, is married to Justine Roberts, founder of Mumsnet, a forum for the sort of Mummies who ought to strike terror into the heart of any sentient being.

    Mumsnet gets a bad press. It can be very helpful, informative and downright funny.
    My wife spends a lot of time there.

    Just don't mention netmums.
    Good luck to your wife.

    I found it quite unbearable the only time I went on there. But I tend to the Benevolent Neglect-style of parenting so am probably not their target

  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    TGOHF said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Ian Katz, the new Newsnight editor, is married to Justine Roberts, founder of Mumsnet, a forum for the sort of Mummies who ought to strike terror into the heart of any sentient being.

    Mumsnet gets a bad press. It can be very helpful, informative and downright funny.
    My wife spends a lot of time there.

    Just don't mention netmums.
    Broad spectrum of ethnicity on mumsnet ?

    Never asked.
    From the AIBU threads I have read, there is a wide demographic.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Only utter tools slag off Paul Mason

    Yes - who could possibly find fault with an ex- Trotskyist Workers’ Power member ?
    In the Patten-run Tory BBC?

    Did Newsnight win many prizes for its daring exposes of Lord M and "Help for Heroes" ?

    Wouldn't mind if I didn't have to pay for it without any choice.

    Put it on PPV and see how many tune in.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,543
    GIN1138 said:

    Just to keep you all informed (Promised Nick P I would)

    I've been into hospital and had my operation to remove the pre cancerous lesion from my mouth.

    The experiance was very good. Had a great level care.

    When I arrived I went through a minor surgery admission ward - Which basically consisted of a cubicle, a chair and an operating trolley - I had a nurse in and out, an anethetist visited me (and wrongly told me I would be allowed home that afternoon) and my Speciailist popped in to see me too (he correctly told me I'd be in hospital overnight)

    Overall, it was fine, but I found the admission unit rather impersonal. Wasn't like being on a proper hospital ward.

    The operating theatres are just down the corridor from the admission unit, so I walked to the anesthetic room, which was different from the last Op I had 15 years ago - But it's fine, didn't mind walking to anesthetic room (though it's a little bit like walking The Green Mile LOL)

    After the Op I was taken to a proper, bona fida ward and the care was excellent. Nurses were great. Stayed in overnight then went home the next day with two different mouth washes.

    Everything went very smoothly and as I say level of care was very good. I didn't leave with any superbugs and have recovered well at home.

    Everything has gone fine.

    Will be going back for an Out-Patient appointment in August and I'm told they will be keeping a close eye on me for the next 3-5 years.

    Overall experiance 7/10 - Just knocked a couple of points off for being given the wrong information by the anethetist and the impersonal nature of the admission unit.

    Sounds good. I think you'll be offered a patient experience form at some stage and you might like to fill that in, good and bad - the things they could get better should benefit and the compliments will balance out the tendency that people only fill out comment forms if they want to grumble!

    Only tip: make sure they're following up with the 'close eye' as expected. That's the sort of thing that DOES often go wrong, as busy nurses forget to send the checkup invitation.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300



    Yet there is no equivalent for Oxford. The question is why? It is possible that there was such a ring, and that it has never been exposed. This must be doubtful after the changes post-1989. Or perhaps the Russians wanted a different type of person - the Cambridge graduate, rather than one from Oxford. Or, more likely, the Russians struck lucky in Cambridge before the war, and one recruit led to another.

    Well, if you believed the crackpots such as Peter Wright, then PM Harold Wilson and MI5 chief Roger Hollis were Oxford spies.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF


    Only utter tools slag off Paul Mason

    Yes - who could possibly find fault with an ex- Trotskyist Workers’ Power member ?
    In the Patten-run Tory BBC?

    Did Newsnight win many prizes for its daring exposes of Lord M and "Help for Heroes" ?

    Wouldn't mind if I didn't have to pay for it without any choice.

    Put it on PPV and see how many tune in.

    Europe and whining about the BBC, we are truly blessed.

    You whine about Cameron every hour - twice.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300
    edited May 2013

    GIN1138 said:

    Just to keep you all informed (Promised Nick P I would)

    I've been into hospital and had my operation to remove the pre cancerous lesion from my mouth.

    The experiance was very good. Had a great level care.

    When I arrived I went through a minor surgery admission ward - Which basically consisted of a cubicle, a chair and an operating trolley - I had a nurse in and out, an anethetist visited me (and wrongly told me I would be allowed home that afternoon) and my Speciailist popped in to see me too (he correctly told me I'd be in hospital overnight)

    Overall, it was fine, but I found the admission unit rather impersonal. Wasn't like being on a proper hospital ward.

    The operating theatres are just down the corridor from the admission unit, so I walked to the anesthetic room, which was different from the last Op I had 15 years ago - But it's fine, didn't mind walking to anesthetic room (though it's a little bit like walking The Green Mile LOL)

    After the Op I was taken to a proper, bona fida ward and the care was excellent. Nurses were great. Stayed in overnight then went home the next day with two different mouth washes.

    Everything went very smoothly and as I say level of care was very good. I didn't leave with any superbugs and have recovered well at home.

    Everything has gone fine.

    Will be going back for an Out-Patient appointment in August and I'm told they will be keeping a close eye on me for the next 3-5 years.

    Overall experiance 7/10 - Just knocked a couple of points off for being given the wrong information by the anethetist and the impersonal nature of the admission unit.

    Sounds good. I think you'll be offered a patient experience form at some stage and you might like to fill that in, good and bad - the things they could get better should benefit and the compliments will balance out the tendency that people only fill out comment forms if they want to grumble!

    Only tip: make sure they're following up with the 'close eye' as expected. That's the sort of thing that DOES often go wrong, as busy nurses forget to send the checkup invitation.
    Thanks Nick. :)

    I've already got the "out patient" appointment (August 1st) arrived within three days of the discharge, which I thought was VERY impressive.

  • SeanT said:


    Way back in 1981, I nearly got into a fight with one of my best friends at Sixth Form College - he was a lefty - for saying that Blunt should hang. I still believe that now. I wonder what my then-lefty friend now believes...

    Between 1939 and 1941, the Soviet Union and the German Reich were allies, and His Majesty was engaged in a war with the German Reich. Per section 1 of the Treachery Act 1940:
    If, with intent to help the enemy, any person does, or attempts or conspires with any other person to do, any act which is designed or likely to give assistance to the naval, military or air operations of the enemy, to impede such operations of His Majesty's forces, or to endanger life, he shall be guilty of felony and shall on conviction suffer death.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,243
    NZ's day in the cricket. If you are going to bat at a turgid plod best not to use up 4 wickets doing so.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    I rather like Paul Mason's reports. He's a good reporter, whatever his personal political views. I prefer his reports to Robert Peston's, to be honest.

    Allegra Stratton has been somewhat underwhelming the times I've seen her. She seems not to have an original thought in her head and is rather dull in the way she presents. Emily Maitlis needs to go; she's largely useless.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,627
    edited May 2013

    taffys said:

    And even more luckily the Germans had no Russian spy.

    The Germans had spies in Russia, unfortunately for them their intelligence operations were crap. Why the Nazis' intelligence effort was so mediocre compared to the rest of their war machine is one of the lesser mysteries of the war; probably cut-throat (sometimes literally) competition between agencies and the Abwehr plotting against Hitler much of the time had something to do with it.

    Its not a mystery at all. If you read the excellent book by Michael Mueller on Admiral Canaris who was head of the Abwher you find that from well before the war he was plotting to overthrow Hitler and did everything he could to ensure that the German intelligence system could not help Hitler's war efforts.

    There is a fascinating piece about how he used the contacts he had developed whilst serving in the Spanish Civil War to ensure that Franco would rebuff Hitler's attempts to draw Spain into the Axis. Once does wonder how different the war might have been if Spain had joined with Germany and taken Gibralter, sealing off the Mediterranean.

    He also used his spy network to smuggle Jews out of Germany, giving them jobs as spies as a means of getting them to neutral countries.

    Perhaps the very worst thing was that before the war he had sent agents to London to warn his British counterparts of the danger of trying to reach a settlement with Hitler but was basically ignored.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Just to keep you all informed (Promised Nick P I would)

    I've been into hospital and had my operation to remove the pre cancerous lesion from my mouth.

    The experiance was very good. Had a great level care.

    When I arrived I went through a minor surgery admission ward - Which basically consisted of a cubicle, a chair and an operating trolley - I had a nurse in and out, an anethetist visited me (and wrongly told me I would be allowed home that afternoon) and my Speciailist popped in to see me too (he correctly told me I'd be in hospital overnight)

    Overall, it was fine, but I found the admission unit rather impersonal. Wasn't like being on a proper hospital ward.

    The operating theatres are just down the corridor from the admission unit, so I walked to the anesthetic room, which was different from the last Op I had 15 years ago - But it's fine, didn't mind walking to anesthetic room (though it's a little bit like walking The Green Mile LOL)

    After the Op I was taken to a proper, bona fida ward and the care was excellent. Nurses were great. Stayed in overnight then went home the next day with two different mouth washes.

    Everything went very smoothly and as I say level of care was very good. I didn't leave with any superbugs and have recovered well at home.

    Everything has gone fine.

    Will be going back for an Out-Patient appointment in August and I'm told they will be keeping a close eye on me for the next 3-5 years.

    Overall experiance 7/10 - Just knocked a couple of points off for being given the wrong information by the anethetist and the impersonal nature of the admission unit.

    Sounds good. I think you'll be offered a patient experience form at some stage and you might like to fill that in, good and bad - the things they could get better should benefit and the compliments will balance out the tendency that people only fill out comment forms if they want to grumble!

    Only tip: make sure they're following up with the 'close eye' as expected. That's the sort of thing that DOES often go wrong, as busy nurses forget to send the checkup invitation.
    Thanks Nick. :)

    I've already got the "out patient" appointment (August 1st) arrived within three days is the discharge, which I thought was VERY impressive.

    24 hours to save the NHS ?
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Ian Katz, the new Newsnight editor, is married to Justine Roberts, founder of Mumsnet, a forum for the sort of Mummies who ought to strike terror into the heart of any sentient being.

    Mumsnet gets a bad press. It can be very helpful, informative and downright funny.
    My wife spends a lot of time there.

    Just don't mention netmums.
    Good luck to your wife.

    Thanks, I'll pass it on to her.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    taffys said:

    And even more luckily the Germans had no Russian spy.

    The Germans had spies in Russia, unfortunately for them their intelligence operations were crap. Why the Nazis' intelligence effort was so mediocre compared to the rest of their war machine is one of the lesser mysteries of the war; probably cut-throat (sometimes literally) competition between agencies and the Abwehr plotting against Hitler much of the time had something to do with it.

    Its not a mystery at all. If you read the excellent book by Michael Mueller on Admiral Canaris who was head of the Abwher you find that from well before the war he was plotting to overthrow Hitler and did everything he could to ensure that the German intelligence system could not help Hitler's war efforts.

    There is a fascinating piece about how he used the contacts he had developed whilst serving in the Spanish Civil War to ensure that Franco would rebuff Hitler's attempts to draw Spain into the Axis. Once does wonder how different the war might have been if Spain had joined with Germany and taken Gibralter, sealing off the Mediterranean.

    He also used his spy network to smuggle Jews out of Germany, giving them jobs as spies as a means of getting them to neutral countries.

    Perhaps the very worst thing was that before the war he had sent agents to London to warn his British counterparts of the danger of trying to reach a settlement with Hitler but was basically ignored.
    Would Spain have been able to take Gibraltar? They always failed in previous wars.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    tim said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Ian Katz, the new Newsnight editor, is married to Justine Roberts, founder of Mumsnet, a forum for the sort of Mummies who ought to strike terror into the heart of any sentient being.

    Mumsnet gets a bad press. It can be very helpful, informative and downright funny.
    My wife spends a lot of time there.

    Just don't mention netmums.
    Good luck to your wife.

    I found it quite unbearable the only time I went on there. But I tend to the Benevolent Neglect-style of parenting so am probably not their target

    Looks like there may be a spat coming between As A Father Dave and As A Mother Of Three Perry and Mumsnet

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/8316997/Mumsnet-abandons-support-for-anti-pornography-web-filters.html
    With the antics on the regular Friday night bum sex thread it would seem half the mumsnet population are porn addicts.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,627
    Socrates said:

    taffys said:

    And even more luckily the Germans had no Russian spy.

    The Germans had spies in Russia, unfortunately for them their intelligence operations were crap. Why the Nazis' intelligence effort was so mediocre compared to the rest of their war machine is one of the lesser mysteries of the war; probably cut-throat (sometimes literally) competition between agencies and the Abwehr plotting against Hitler much of the time had something to do with it.

    Its not a mystery at all. If you read the excellent book by Michael Mueller on Admiral Canaris who was head of the Abwher you find that from well before the war he was plotting to overthrow Hitler and did everything he could to ensure that the German intelligence system could not help Hitler's war efforts.

    There is a fascinating piece about how he used the contacts he had developed whilst serving in the Spanish Civil War to ensure that Franco would rebuff Hitler's attempts to draw Spain into the Axis. Once does wonder how different the war might have been if Spain had joined with Germany and taken Gibralter, sealing off the Mediterranean.

    He also used his spy network to smuggle Jews out of Germany, giving them jobs as spies as a means of getting them to neutral countries.

    Perhaps the very worst thing was that before the war he had sent agents to London to warn his British counterparts of the danger of trying to reach a settlement with Hitler but was basically ignored.
    Would Spain have been able to take Gibraltar? They always failed in previous wars.
    I suspect that with the German's helping they probably would have been able to. Or at least denied its use as a port to the British.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I still believe that now. I wonder what my then-lefty friend now believes...

    Dunno. Maybe he's high up in MI5.....(cue sinister music)
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983


    the regular Friday night bum sex thread

    They couldnt make do with a nighthawks thread?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,961

    taffys said:

    And even more luckily the Germans had no Russian spy.

    The Germans had spies in Russia, unfortunately for them their intelligence operations were crap. Why the Nazis' intelligence effort was so mediocre compared to the rest of their war machine is one of the lesser mysteries of the war; probably cut-throat (sometimes literally) competition between agencies and the Abwehr plotting against Hitler much of the time had something to do with it.

    Probably the same infighting that led the Nazis to have an aircraft carrier (the Graf Zeppelin) during the war that was never used, because of disagreements between the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_carrier_Graf_Zeppelin

    Agent ZigZag goes into some detail of the training received by Nazi spies, although I'm not sure quite how accurate a portrayal of Nazi spy system it is. It also details our fairly ruthless counter-espionage systems.

    @gin1138: glad it all went well.
  • samonipadsamonipad Posts: 182
    edited May 2013
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Neil said:


    the regular Friday night bum sex thread

    They couldnt make do with a nighthawks thread?
    Eye-opening.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2013
    Beckham retires ....

    Phew, thank gawd we'll not be hearing her mangle any more tunes ....
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Regarding Paul Mason. I struggle to believe the BBC would ever dare employ someone that has previously been a member of a fascist organisation as an editor.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Its not a mystery at all....

    I remember one of the Bletcheley people saying that the best spies were often unusual types the Nazis detested or mistrusted for one reason or another (ie Jews and other non-aryans, Homosexuals, larger than life characters etc...).

    Plus of course there was the ubermensch/untermensch thing. A bunch of untermensch could never had broken enigma or the other encoding machines...


  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    He's not the McMessiah...

    Nick Eardley ‏@nickeardley 18m
    Nigel Farage driven out of Edinburgh pub by protesters as he tries to hold press conference. More on http://scotsman.com soon #ukip

  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    Well, if you believed the crackpots such as Peter Wright, then PM Harold Wilson and MI5 chief Roger Hollis were Oxford spies.

    I was almost sure that Tony Blair was an agent for someone. Only the fact that no decent secret service would ever recruit anyone as narcissistic and delusional as him made me doubt this.

    Does Belgium have a secret service?
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    'Anti-racism protesters at Nigel Farage press conference shout: "Leave Scotland, go back to England".'

    'Nigel Farage protest gets ugly, with Nigel locked inside the Canon's Gait pub for his own safety.'

    (He must have been gutted...)

    'Farage protest latest: Police riot van arrives.'

    'Farage protesters shout: "You can stick your Union Jack up your a***"'

    'Farage bundled into police riot van and driven away.'

    RTs from alanroden

  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    With the antics on the regular Friday night bum sex thread it would seem half the mumsnet population are porn addicts.

    Christ. The what?

    Which takes place regularly on Friday nights - the bumsex, or the Mumsnet thread about it?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Mr. T, you have my sympathy. I remember reading earlier today a comment in response to either a Telegraph article about the rape gang recently convicted that had a very strange take on your blog.

    Thankfully you still have the wellspring of sanity, decency and wisdom (ahem) that is pb.com.

    Mr. Taffys, a member of my family worked at Bletchley, but died before they started handing out the medals.

    Whilst I strongly support giving medals for service that warrants it, it seems slightly bizarre that we're still handing out new ones for WWII now.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "'Anti-racism protesters at Nigel Farage press conference shout: "Leave Scotland, go back to England".'"

    Irony still dead north of Hadrian's wall as usual..
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    TGOHF said:

    "'Anti-racism protesters at Nigel Farage press conference shout: "Leave Scotland, go back to England".'"

    Irony still dead north of Hadrian's wall as usual..

    I know!

    https://twitter.com/C_KAndrews/status/335071958435774466/photo/1

  • rogerhrogerh Posts: 282
    The electoral

    Norm said:

    taffys said:

    Does the above mean it would be possible for labour to lose the popular vote to the tories quite handily, and yet still form a majority government??

    Just asking....

    The interesting result would be something like this

    Tories 33

    Labour 32

    LD 10

    UKIP 20

    Which in seats would be

    Tories 284

    Labour 314

    LD 24

    UKIP Zero

    Labour short of majority by 14

    I expect the Tories to recover on the back of an economic revival but Labour to increase their vote share from 2010. How about

    Tories 36
    Labour 35
    UKIP 10
    LDs 14

    What does that produce?
    Tories 287

    Labour 311

    LD 25

    UKIP Zero

    Labour short by 15

    Have a play here with the numbers

    http://electoralcalculus.co.uk/userpoll.html
    The electoral calculus model doee not vtake account of the current Scottish vote shares which currently have SNP in thbelead and would hpgive them 30+seats at the expense of labour and nthe Lib bDems.
    Labours margin of 15 or so thus dcssapears and we head into coallition terrritory with amix of SNP,LIb Dem and even UKIP holding the balance of power.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Well, if you believed the crackpots such as Peter Wright, then PM Harold Wilson and MI5 chief Roger Hollis were Oxford spies.

    I was almost sure that Tony Blair was an agent for someone. Only the fact that no decent secret service would ever recruit anyone as narcissistic and delusional as him made me doubt this.

    Does Belgium have a secret service?
    Blair probably thinks of himself as an agent of God......
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,850
    Anti-racism? Surely pro-racism?

    Poor Antonine Wall. Nobody ever remembers that one.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626

    With the antics on the regular Friday night bum sex thread it would seem half the mumsnet population are porn addicts.

    Christ. The what?

    Which takes place regularly on Friday nights - the bumsex, or the Mumsnet thread about it?
    Couldn't possibly comment.
    Check it out:
    http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1619927-Here-is-this-weeks-Friday-bum-sex-thread
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    I see some Europhiles, who once told us that leaving the EU would be an economic disaster, are now accepting we could be richer, but it's worth it because we should be "intoxicated" by the "intermingling of peoples and cultures":

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-case-for-eu-membership-goes-beyond-mere-economics-8617783.html
  • samonipadsamonipad Posts: 182
    Carola said:

    TGOHF said:

    "'Anti-racism protesters at Nigel Farage press conference shout: "Leave Scotland, go back to England".'"

    Irony still dead north of Hadrian's wall as usual..

    I know!

    https://twitter.com/C_KAndrews/status/335071958435774466/photo/1

    haha can't help but laugh at this

    without wanting to sound like an inverse Dan Hodges / Ed M, I think this will be good publicity rather than bad news for ukip... Most of us kippers are English not British lets be fair


    Interesting programme on bbc 2 tonight, 'Bradford, City of Dreams' the final episode reveals how the city's tradition as a magnet for economic migrants lives on today

    Anyone catch part one?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    rogerh said:

    The electoral

    Norm said:

    taffys said:

    Does the above mean it would be possible for labour to lose the popular vote to the tories quite handily, and yet still form a majority government??

    Just asking....

    The interesting result would be something like this

    Tories 33

    Labour 32

    LD 10

    UKIP 20

    Which in seats would be

    Tories 284

    Labour 314

    LD 24

    UKIP Zero

    Labour short of majority by 14

    I expect the Tories to recover on the back of an economic revival but Labour to increase their vote share from 2010. How about

    Tories 36
    Labour 35
    UKIP 10
    LDs 14

    What does that produce?
    Tories 287

    Labour 311

    LD 25

    UKIP Zero

    Labour short by 15

    Have a play here with the numbers

    http://electoralcalculus.co.uk/userpoll.html
    The electoral calculus model doee not vtake account of the current Scottish vote shares which currently have SNP in thbelead and would hpgive them 30+seats at the expense of labour and nthe Lib bDems.
    Labours margin of 15 or so thus dcssapears and we head into coallition terrritory with amix of SNP,LIb Dem and even UKIP holding the balance of power.

    There are no Scottish vote shares showing the SNP in the lead . In fact there have been no Westminster VI polls for Scotland for quite some time . The only indication we can get is from Scottish sub samples of UK wide polls and they generally show Labour well in the lead .

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    Socrates said:

    I see some Europhiles, who once told us that leaving the EU would be an economic disaster, are now accepting we could be richer, but it's worth it because we should be "intoxicated" by the "intermingling of peoples and cultures":

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-case-for-eu-membership-goes-beyond-mere-economics-8617783.html

    To be fair to him, living abroad is an absolute hoot. I did it for three years in Spain and it changed my life. I can see why he thinks the EU is pivotal to that, but I did it when you still needed to get a Spanish visa. It was fine. I just went illegally and worked for cash in hand, before landing a job at Hello magazine in Madrid, when I went legit! Ah, the 80s ... such larks.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    More proof of intolerance in Scotland. Post Indy it woild be like having a mini Saudi as a neighbour.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    EU trade chief having to publicly lobby for the French to stop throwing up barriers to the US trade deal:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/16/us-eu-us-trade-idUSBRE94F0U020130516
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,053
    edited May 2013


    Its not a mystery at all. If you read the excellent book by Michael Mueller on Admiral Canaris who was head of the Abwher you find that from well before the war he was plotting to overthrow Hitler and did everything he could to ensure that the German intelligence system could not help Hitler's war efforts.

    Yeah, Canaris was something of an unsung hero. However the Nazis considered him unreliable from pretty early on and the SS ran their own (favoured) intelligence operations e.g. Bernhard.

  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    With the antics on the regular Friday night bum sex thread it would seem half the mumsnet population are porn addicts.

    Christ. The what?

    Which takes place regularly on Friday nights - the bumsex, or the Mumsnet thread about it?
    Couldn't possibly comment.
    Check it out:
    http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1619927-Here-is-this-weeks-Friday-bum-sex-thread
    Jeez. That reads like an overheard convo between the kids at school.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited May 2013

    Socrates said:

    I see some Europhiles, who once told us that leaving the EU would be an economic disaster, are now accepting we could be richer, but it's worth it because we should be "intoxicated" by the "intermingling of peoples and cultures":

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-case-for-eu-membership-goes-beyond-mere-economics-8617783.html

    To be fair to him, living abroad is an absolute hoot. I did it for three years in Spain and it changed my life. I can see why he thinks the EU is pivotal to that, but I did it when you still needed to get a Spanish visa. It was fine. I just went illegally and worked for cash in hand, before landing a job at Hello magazine in Madrid, when I went legit! Ah, the 80s ... such larks.

    I've done it myself - it sure is. But I don't really see why millions of struggling families across Britain should all pay higher food bills so a handful of mostly middle class kids can have a bit of a lark in Poland.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    With the antics on the regular Friday night bum sex thread it would seem half the mumsnet population are porn addicts.

    Christ. The what?

    Which takes place regularly on Friday nights - the bumsex, or the Mumsnet thread about it?
    This I have to find out. I'm not sure I'll be able to take Justine Roberts seriously again.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Socrates said:

    EU trade chief having to publicly lobby for the French to stop throwing up barriers to the US trade deal:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/16/us-eu-us-trade-idUSBRE94F0U020130516

    Would it be naughty to suggest that the EU would be much better without the French in it? I'm quite certain we and the Germans could get on famously. And we have much to learn from them, frankly.



  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,667
    Socrates said:

    Socrates said:

    I see some Europhiles, who once told us that leaving the EU would be an economic disaster, are now accepting we could be richer, but it's worth it because we should be "intoxicated" by the "intermingling of peoples and cultures":

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-case-for-eu-membership-goes-beyond-mere-economics-8617783.html

    To be fair to him, living abroad is an absolute hoot. I did it for three years in Spain and it changed my life. I can see why he thinks the EU is pivotal to that, but I did it when you still needed to get a Spanish visa. It was fine. I just went illegally and worked for cash in hand, before landing a job at Hello magazine in Madrid, when I went legit! Ah, the 80s ... such larks.

    I've done it myself - it sure is. But I don't really see why millions of struggling families across Britain should all pay higher food bills so a handful of mostly middle class kids can have a bit of a lark in Poland.

    Spoilsport!

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    samonipad said:

    Carola said:

    TGOHF said:

    "'Anti-racism protesters at Nigel Farage press conference shout: "Leave Scotland, go back to England".'"

    Irony still dead north of Hadrian's wall as usual..

    I know!

    https://twitter.com/C_KAndrews/status/335071958435774466/photo/1

    haha can't help but laugh at this

    without wanting to sound like an inverse Dan Hodges / Ed M, I think this will be good publicity rather than bad news for ukip... Most of us kippers are English not British lets be fair


    Interesting programme on bbc 2 tonight, 'Bradford, City of Dreams' the final episode reveals how the city's tradition as a magnet for economic migrants lives on today

    Anyone catch part one?
    Bradford, City of Dreams? Was it this one?

    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/bradford-riots
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    edited May 2013
    According to twitter (RUMOUR KLAXON) Farage had to leave in a police van because two cabbies refused to let him in their taxis.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/odd/nigel-farage-forced-to-flee-edinburgh-s-royal-mile-1-2933645#.UZUV54ktoVQ.twitter
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @Carola

    I didn't realise Scotland was so intolerant.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,053
    Carola said:

    According to twitter (RUMOUR KLAXON) Farage had to leave in a police van because two cabbies refused to let him in their taxis.

    Feckin hell, they must have found the only two non UKIP cabbies in Scotland.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,394
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Socrates said:



    I didn't realise Scotland was so intolerant.

    Have you never been?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Anti english racism is more than tolerated in Snp run Scotland.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    Carola said:

    According to twitter (RUMOUR KLAXON) Farage had to leave in a police van because two cabbies refused to let him in their taxis.

    Feckin hell, they must have found the only two non UKIP cabbies in Scotland.
    Lol. Maybe they were worried about their cabs getting rolled.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,394
    I have no sympathy for any Tory complaints about FPTP after they refused to back AV (when any fool could see UKIP eating into their vote) and as a consequence forced the LDs to oppose the boundary changes. The Tories voted for Christmas and will have to face the consequences, if they do win they will have to do so with the odds against them and they have no-one to blame but themselves!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    HYUFD said:

    I have no sympathy for any Tory complaints about FPTP after they refused to back AV (when any fool could see UKIP eating into their vote) and as a consequence forced the LDs to oppose the boundary changes. The Tories voted for Christmas and will have to face the consequences, if they do win they will have to do so with the odds against them and they have no-one to blame but themselves!

    I tend to agree. If you favour a system like FPTP then you need to organise yourself so that you get the votes and make yourself attractive to voters in all parts of the country in the numbers needed to win.

    The Tories will win under FPTP when they start being attractive to voters. They're doing their level best at the moment to annoy even their own mothers........

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,053
    edited May 2013
    Re Farage's NorthUK visit, I believe Monkton was in tow. Maybe that's what really p!ssed off the natives:

    'Criticizing the campaign to save the Ravenscraig ironworks, Monckton wrote, "The Scots are subsidy junkies whingeing like a trampled bagpipe as they wait for their next fix of English taxpayers' money." This is believed to be the first use of the now well-known phrase "subsidy junkies".'
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013
    What would be the problem with an immigration policy that allowed freedom of movement between countries on a "swap" basis, ie one Bugarian immigrant for every Brit wanting to live in Bulgaria, one Brit pensioner allowed in Spain for every Spaniard that lives in Britain?

    A couple of blokes I know work in Sofia for a betting firm, so theres 2 Bulgarians allowed in already!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,394
    SeanT - This is not a Democratic Party issue, the IRS is a government agency, not the DNC
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,394
    Antfrank - What it says is stronger men are more rightwing if they are wealthy, but more leftwing if they are poor. Physically weaker rich men are less opposed to redistribution and physically weaker poor men are less likely to support it
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,961
    sam said:

    What would be the problem with an immigration policy that allowed freedom of movement between countries on a "swap" basis, ie one Bugarian immigrant for every Brit wanting to live in Bulgaria, one Brit pensioner allowed in Spain for every Spaniard that lives in Britain?

    A couple of blokes I know work in Sofia for a betting firm, so theres 2 Bulgarians allowed in already!

    What would be your attitude towards someone like my wife, who came to Britain from Turkey a little over ten years ago. She is a highly-educated, highly-paid engineer, who has been in continuous employment (bar the odd week or two) since she came over.

    How many people would have to leave to allow someone like her in, especially from a (gasp!) Muslim, non-EU country?

    It's a serious question. It's not just about numbers of people, but also skills.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    tim said:

    Re Farage's NorthUK visit, I believe Monkton was in tow. Maybe that's what really p!ssed off the natives:

    'Criticizing the campaign to save the Ravenscraig ironworks, Monckton wrote, "The Scots are subsidy junkies whingeing like a trampled bagpipe as they wait for their next fix of English taxpayers' money." This is believed to be the first use of the now well-known phrase "subsidy junkies".'


    Monckton and people like him are problem for UKIP

    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/05/09/ukip-spokesman-calls-on-far-right-party-to-join-them/
    Easy mate! Youre giving away your strategy "Operation Monckton" for when UKIP look like winning a Labour marginal!

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,394
    Cyclefree - Indeed
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,394
    I like how the Telegraph gives Hague as an example of a strong man when he is just as much of a nerd as Ed, albeit maybe a bit fitter. Wouldn't Arnie or David Davis be a better example?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10061462/Stronger-men-are-more-right-wing.html
  • rogerhrogerh Posts: 282

    rogerh said:

    The electoral

    Norm said:

    taffys said:

    Does the above mean it would be possible for labour to lose the popular vote to the tories quite handily, and yet still form a majority government??

    Just asking....

    The interesting result would be something like this

    Tories 33

    Labour 32

    LD 10

    UKIP 20

    Which in seats would be

    Tories 284

    Labour 314

    LD 24

    UKIP Zero

    Labour short of majority by 14

    I expect the Tories to recover on the back of an economic revival but Labour to increase their vote share from 2010. How about

    Tories 36
    Labour 35
    UKIP 10
    LDs 14

    What does that produce?
    Tories 287

    Labour 311

    LD 25

    UKIP Zero

    Labour short by 15

    Have a play here with the numbers

    http://electoralcalculus.co.uk/userpoll.html
    The electoral calculus model doee not vtake account of the current Scottish vote shares which currently have SNP in thbelead and would hpgive them 30+seats at the expense of labour and nthe Lib bDems.
    Labours margin of 15 or so thus dcssapears and we head into coallition terrritory with amix of SNP,LIb Dem and even UKIP holding the balance of power.

    There are no Scottish vote shares showing the SNP in the lead . In fact there have been no Westminster VI polls for Scotland for quite some time . The only indication we can get is from Scottish sub samples of UK wide polls and they generally show Labour well in the lead .




    "The SNP’s current popularity is also reflected in Westminster voting intention, where the party enjoys a nine point lead over Labour. Among those certain to vote, the SNP’s share of the vote stands at 42%, some 19 points up on the party’s performance at the 2010 General Election. Labour are currently on 33%, down 9 points, while the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are on 16% and 6%, down 1% and 13% respectively."

    Mark this is the Ipsos MORI report on Scottish vote shares in August 2011.
  • samsam Posts: 727

    sam said:

    What would be the problem with an immigration policy that allowed freedom of movement between countries on a "swap" basis, ie one Bugarian immigrant for every Brit wanting to live in Bulgaria, one Brit pensioner allowed in Spain for every Spaniard that lives in Britain?

    A couple of blokes I know work in Sofia for a betting firm, so theres 2 Bulgarians allowed in already!

    What would be your attitude towards someone like my wife, who came to Britain from Turkey a little over ten years ago. She is a highly-educated, highly-paid engineer, who has been in continuous employment (bar the odd week or two) since she came over.

    How many people would have to leave to allow someone like her in, especially from a (gasp!) Muslim, non-EU country?

    It's a serious question. It's not just about numbers of people, but also skills.
    Oh it wasnt particularly a well thought out policy of mine, just an idea that I thought i would float.

    So wouldnt know really. Marrying a Brit would make it ok I guess. If not, and if there were already as many Turks in Britain as Brits in Turkey I suppose it would be a case of her passing an Australian style visa test to show she had something to offer

    Wish I hadnt said anything now, I can feel Southam Observer is about to ask some micro detail on something that was a passing thought...
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    sam said:

    What would be the problem with an immigration policy that allowed freedom of movement between countries on a "swap" basis, ie one Bugarian immigrant for every Brit wanting to live in Bulgaria, one Brit pensioner allowed in Spain for every Spaniard that lives in Britain?

    A couple of blokes I know work in Sofia for a betting firm, so theres 2 Bulgarians allowed in already!

    We'd be recruiting lots of Spaniards and booting out lots of Poles so Brit pensioners can live in Spain.
    Id be ok with that.

    Get those young unemployed Spaniards over here picking crops in Lincolnshire or working in Costas

    To be fair I meant starting from now, so no Poles would be getting the boot

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,961
    tim said:



    What would be your attitude towards someone like my wife, who came to Britain from Turkey a little over ten years ago. She is a highly-educated, highly-paid engineer, who has been in continuous employment (bar the odd week or two) since she came over.

    How many people would have to leave to allow someone like her in, especially from a (gasp!) Muslim, non-EU country?

    It's a serious question. It's not just about numbers of people, but also skills.


    Get Turkey in the EU ASAP.
    Their economy is booming and Turkish women are hot.

    Her sister's unmarried and over here if you're interested ;-)

    (Incidentally, she's yet another engineer in the same really obscure field. It seems to run in the family).

    And we could do worse than let Turkey into the EU. They have a booming economy, are a link to the east, and it would really pi** the French off. ;-)
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited May 2013
    rogerh said:

    rogerh said:

    The electoral

    Norm said:

    taffys said:

    Does the above mean it would be possible for labour to lose the popular vote to the tories quite handily, and yet still form a majority government??

    Just asking....

    The interesting result would be something like this

    Tories 33

    Labour 32

    LD 10

    UKIP 20

    Which in seats would be

    Tories 284

    Labour 314

    LD 24

    UKIP Zero

    Labour short of majority by 14

    I expect the Tories to recover on the back of an economic revival but Labour to increase their vote share from 2010. How about

    Tories 36
    Labour 35
    UKIP 10
    LDs 14

    What does that produce?
    Tories 287

    Labour 311

    LD 25

    UKIP Zero

    Labour short by 15

    Have a play here with the numbers

    http://electoralcalculus.co.uk/userpoll.html
    The electoral calculus model doee not vtake account of the current Scottish vote shares which currently have SNP in thbelead and would hpgive them 30+seats at the expense of labour and nthe Lib bDems.
    Labours margin of 15 or so thus dcssapears and we head into coallition terrritory with amix of SNP,LIb Dem and even UKIP holding the balance of power.

    There are no Scottish vote shares showing the SNP in the lead . In fact there have been no Westminster VI polls for Scotland for quite some time . The only indication we can get is from Scottish sub samples of UK wide polls and they generally show Labour well in the lead .




    "The SNP’s current popularity is also reflected in Westminster voting intention, where the party enjoys a nine point lead over Labour. Among those certain to vote, the SNP’s share of the vote stands at 42%, some 19 points up on the party’s performance at the 2010 General Election. Labour are currently on 33%, down 9 points, while the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are on 16% and 6%, down 1% and 13% respectively."

    Mark this is the Ipsos MORI report on Scottish vote shares in August 2011.
    ERRMM , We are now May 2013 . I know they are sub samples but the latest for each polling company are
    Ipsos Mori Lab 48 % SNP 23 %
    ICM Lab 61% SNP 23 %
    Yougov Lab 46% SNP 21 % previous 3 Yougov 41/25 , 42/16 , 40/20
    Comres Lab 42 % SNP 29 %
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited May 2013
    tim said:

    @Sam

    Get ready for Croatian accession Sam, hopefully some will make it through to the end of the tube line for you

    http://www.yacht-base.com/news/Brits-say-Croatian-women-are-the-most-beautiful.html

    tim said:

    @Sam

    Get ready for Croatian accession Sam, hopefully some will make it through to the end of the tube line for you

    http://www.yacht-base.com/news/Brits-say-Croatian-women-are-the-most-beautiful.html

    Ive dated a few foriegn girls but never really enjoyed it that much.

    Had a Swedish girlfriend who was part of a Yes to the Euro (Ja til Euron!) campaign in 2003... I had no interest in politics at the time and she went mental when I said I couldnt care less if the UK was in the Euro or not.... I should have had an opinion even if it were no apparently...

    ...and a Brazilian girl, but the language barrier meant banter was a bit hmmmm. I took her to a Brazilian restaurant in Camden and to see Brazil vs Argentina at the Emitrates... bit too focussed on her nationality perhaps!

    That was in the days when I could afford to be choosy!
  • samsam Posts: 727
    tim said:

    @Sam

    Don't take a Croat to watch the England football team would be my tip.

    I could impress her with my signed Davor Suker boot!

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited May 2013
    samonipad said:

    Carola said:

    TGOHF said:

    "'Anti-racism protesters at Nigel Farage press conference shout: "Leave Scotland, go back to England".'"

    Irony still dead north of Hadrian's wall as usual..

    I know!

    https://twitter.com/C_KAndrews/status/335071958435774466/photo/1

    haha can't help but laugh at this

    without wanting to sound like an inverse Dan Hodges / Ed M, I think this will be good publicity rather than bad news for ukip... Most of us kippers are English not British lets be fair


    Interesting programme on bbc 2 tonight, 'Bradford, City of Dreams' the final episode reveals how the city's tradition as a magnet for economic migrants lives on today

    Anyone catch part one?
    Sam,I watched the first 20 mins of Bradford,city of dreams,

    I know my own city and that programme was even in the part of Bradford where I live.

    The first story of the Garage owner was a nice story but was scripted into acting the parts,like when he had a surprise for his mum,a brand new car.The story of the white guy,a builder, who works for the Asian community went well over the top,driving down the street in his little lorry with his music on in the cab(Sinatra I think) and most of the street were out waving at him as he drove by,you could tell the bbc had been asking people who lived in the street if they could wave at him,it was pathetic.

    That's when I turned it over,this was supposed to be real life,not scripted real life where everythings is just beautiful with cream on top,shame on the bbc for it's attempted propaganda.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The main thing that you need if you're dating a Croat is a stepladder. Unless you're very forward.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Nigel Farage ‏@Nigel_Farage 26m

    Am okay after the Edinburgh fracas but if that is the face of Scottish Nationalism then it's pretty ugly.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    #prayforfarage
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    sam said:

    Nigel Farage ‏@Nigel_Farage 26m

    Am okay after the Edinburgh fracas but if that is the face of Scottish Nationalism then it's pretty ugly.

    I remember a Private Eye cartoon showing a skinhead graffiti-ing a wall with the message " Go home Ni " just as two West Indians walk around the corner , he quickly completes his message as " Go home Nigel "

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Nigel Farage bundled into police van after being barricaded inside pub where he was going to promote Scottish by-election candidate

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325679/Nigel-Farage-bundled-police-van-barricaded-inside-pub-going-promote-Scottish-election-candidate.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,394
    PPP Democratic nomination 2016

    •Hillary Clinton 63% [64%] (58%) {57%} [61%] (57%)
    •Joe Biden 13% [18%] (19%) {16%} [12%] (14%)
    •Andrew Cuomo 4% [3%] (3%) {4%} [5%] (5%)
    •Mark Warner 3% [2%] (1%) {2%} [1%] (2%)
    •Elizabeth Warren 3% [5%] (8%) {4%} [4%] (6%)
    •Martin O’Malley 2% [1%] (1%) {3%} [2%] (1%)
    •Kirsten Gillibrand 1% [1%] (1%) {1%}
    •Deval Patrick 1% [1%] (0%) {2%} [1%]
    •Brian Schweitzer 1% [1%] (0%) {1%} [1%] (1%)
    •Someone else/Undecided 10% [6%] (9%) {10%} [12%] (12%)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,394

    Given the choices of Joe Biden, Andrew Cuomo, Kirsten Gillibrand, Martin O’Malley, Deval Patrick, Brian Schweitzer, Mark Warner, and Elizabeth Warren, who would you most like to see as the Democratic candidate for President in 2016?
    •Joe Biden 38% [49%] (57%) (32%)
    •Elizabeth Warren 13% [11%] (13%) (8%)
    •Andrew Cuomo 10% [10%] (5%) (18% )
    •Mark Warner 3% [3%] (3%) (2%)
    •Deval Patrick 3% [2%] (2%)
    •Martin O’Malley 3% [1%] (1%) (2%)
    •Kirsten Gillibrand 2% [7%] (4%)
    •Brian Schweitzer 1% [2%] (0%) (1%)
    •Someone else/Undecided 26% [15%] (14%) (32%)


    If neither Hillary Clinton nor Joe Biden ran for President in 2016, who would you most like to see as the Democratic nominee?
    •Andrew Cuomo 25% [22%] (25%) {19%} [21%] (27%)
    •Elizabeth Warren 17% [18%] (21%) {16%} [16%] (9%)
    •Deval Patrick 6% [4%] (3%) {6%} [8%]
    •Kirsten Gillibrand 5% [5%] (3%) {5%}
    •Martin O’Malley 5% [8%] (5%) {7%} [5%] (4%)
    •Mark Warner 4% [5%] (4%) {4%} [3%] (4%)
    •Brian Schweitzer 1% [1%] (2%) {2%} [2%] (2%)
    •Someone else/Undecided 38% [36%] (36%) {40%} [45%] (46%)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,394
    PPP 2016 General Election

    •Hillary Clinton (D) 47% (46%) {46%} [44%]
    •Chris Christie (R) 44% (42%) {41%} [42%]
    •Hillary Clinton (D) 51% (49%) {49%} [51%]
    •Marco Rubio (R) 41% (42%) {41%} [37%]
    •Hillary Clinton (D) 51% (49%)
    •Rand Paul (R) 41% (43%)


    •Chris Christie (R) 49% (49%) {44%}
    •Joe Biden (D) 40% (40%) {44%}
    •Joe Biden (D) 46% (46%) {48%}
    •Marco Rubio (R) 45% (44%) {43%}
    •Joe Biden (D) 46% (47%)
    •Rand Paul (R) 44% (43%)
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    sam said:

    Nigel Farage ‏@Nigel_Farage 26m

    Am okay after the Edinburgh fracas but if that is the face of Scottish Nationalism then it's pretty ugly.

    He rued the day...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,961
    edited May 2013
    SeanT said:

    In his book 'Xanadu', William Dalrymple posits the theory that Turkish men are prone to homosexuality because Turkish women are so ugly

    It's interesting that he'd never get away with saying that today.

    I'm not sure he's right. However, it makes genetic sense that women from conservative Muslim countries are likely to become relatively less attractive over time, as uglier women have just as much chance of breeding, thanks to the veil/burqa/arranged marriages, etc

    I think it might be that different cultures define beauty in different ways.

    And remember, they do belly dancing (Oryantal Tansi) in Turkey.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FsBZjRGbb0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFY-HDXZM4E

    I went belly dancing once. I blinded eight people. ;-)

    (Edit: Mrs J tells me that the first video is actually from Breakfast TV. Now there's a positive from multiculturalism: belly dancing around the BBC Breakfast Sofa)
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @taffys

    M. R. D. Foot covered what made a good spy in Resistance, and his examples are interesting reading.
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