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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Hacking trial: Coulson guilty – Brooks cleared. What if

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  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Coulson was vetted.

    Yes, you are right. In other words, Cameron had no reason not to appoint him, since the vetting did not reveal any problems.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    Piers Morgan ✔ @piersmorgan

    So happy for my friends Rebekah and Charlie, so sad for my friend Andy. A good man, who I will always support. #hackingverdicts

    I wonder if Morgan is thinking 'There but for the grace of God go I.'

    Coulson's mistake, which I'm sure he's aware of now, is that he went into politics and eventually into government.

    If he'd just stayed an "ex-editor" like Piers Morgan he may well have got away with it...
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Socrates,

    "there were other advantages in recruiting Coulson, namely the good favour of Rupert Murdoch." Now that's a much more relevant criticism, and possibly true. Cammo acting like a politician is an insult I can agree with.

    This story is all over the media because it's a media story. They think highly of themselves and assume that everyone else does.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Socrates said:

    @RochdalePioneers

    A good post. When Cameron employed Coulson, he must have known he was either (a) guilty in being involved or (b) hapless in not knowing what his immediate staff were doing.

    It was obviously a huge negative in recruiting him, and Coulson's talents don't seem to be so much larger than any other spin doctor in making up for it. The obvious conclusion is that there were other advantages in recruiting Coulson, namely the good favour of Rupert Murdoch.


    A quite bizarre post .... featuring that either

    1. Cameron knew of Coulson's criminal activities and employed him regardless.

    or

    2. Cameron didn't know something that he didn't know and is therefore guilty of not knowing.

    I tip my titfer to you Sir.

    Chortle ....

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    The usual response from the PB left, desperate to make this a critical issue about Cameron.
    Tom Watson has far more to apologise for
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,687
    edited June 2014
    BobaFett said:

    @Socrates

    The only fair way to judge this is subsidy as a proportion of passenger revenue. Read, and learn...

    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/taxpayer_subsidy_train_network_nationalisation-3391

    Yes, it shows that subsidy as a proportion of total revenue is now similar to the last years of British Rail.. and is falling.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Socrates said:

    @RochdalePioneers

    The obvious conclusion is that there were other advantages in recruiting Coulson, namely the good favour of Rupert Murdoch.

    Only to the paranoid - you suggest that nobody at NI could be good at their job.

  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Not again, Hodges off yet again... oh wait

    The question is what to do about the poisonous shadow cabinet. There is an expectation that the Labour leader will carry out a reshuffle after David Cameron has done his, but this fish seems to be rotting from the very top of its head. Removing very senior Shadow Cabinet members could cause more trouble for Miliband than he thinks it is worth. Which may mean he has to work out how to put up with the poison, rather than removing it.


    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/06/theres-poison-in-the-shadow-cabinet-and-it-could-cost-ed-miliband-the-election/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=theres-poison-in-the-shadow-cabinet-and-it-could-cost-ed-miliband-the-election&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited June 2014
    Still, this vindicates Ed Miliband. It shows that he was ahead of the game in sucking up to the Murdoch press again in his infamous Sun World Cup photo-shoot, even if the implementation was a tad sub-optimal.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    TGOHF said:

    Socrates said:

    @RochdalePioneers

    The obvious conclusion is that there were other advantages in recruiting Coulson, namely the good favour of Rupert Murdoch.

    Only to the paranoid - you suggest that nobody at NI could be good at their job.

    No - I accept he could be good at his job. I just don't think there's any evidence he's particularly better at his job than the next candidate, and certainly not enough to make up for the huge liability he carried with him.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    JackW said:

    Socrates said:

    @RochdalePioneers

    A good post. When Cameron employed Coulson, he must have known he was either (a) guilty in being involved or (b) hapless in not knowing what his immediate staff were doing.

    It was obviously a huge negative in recruiting him, and Coulson's talents don't seem to be so much larger than any other spin doctor in making up for it. The obvious conclusion is that there were other advantages in recruiting Coulson, namely the good favour of Rupert Murdoch.


    A quite bizarre post .... featuring that either

    1. Cameron knew of Coulson's criminal activities and employed him regardless.

    or

    2. Cameron didn't know something that he didn't know and is therefore guilty of not knowing.

    I tip my titfer to you Sir.

    Chortle ....

    I think you misread my sentence. I wasn't claiming that Cameron knew one of (a) or (b), he just knew that either (a) or (b) must be true.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2014
    The results in so far:

    Count 1: conspiring to hack phones between 3 October 2000 and 9 August 2006

    • Andy Coulson was found guilty on Count 1

    • Rebekah Brooks was found not guilty on Count 1

    • Stuart Kuttner was found not guilty on Count 1

    Count 2: conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office

    • The jury are yet to return verdicts on this charge faced by Coulson and Clive Goodman

    Count 3: conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office

    • The jury are yet to return verdicts on this charge faced by Coulson and Clive Goodman

    Count 4: conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office

    • Rebekah Brooks was found not guilty on Count 4.

    Count 5: conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office

    • Rebekah Brooks was found not guilty on Count 5.

    Count 6: conspiracy to pervert the course of justice

    • Rebekah Brooks and Cheryl Carter were found not guilty on Count 6.

    Count 7: perverting the course of justice

    • Rebekah Brooks, Charlie Brook and Mark Hanna were found not guilty on Count 7.


    Not Guilty 9 Guilty 1

    Awaiting Verdict 4

    NewsCorp certain to qualify for knockout stages of tournament.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Casino - similar as in much higher? The railway was privatised in 1994, when it was the most efficient system in Europe. As the chart shows.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787


    vs Iraq.

    Is Iraq more serious than Coulson? Absolutely. But politically the difficulty was always that the Tories gave Blair and the war their full support. Hard to turn it party political when both sides thought it was a good idea. And Blair hasn't committed a crime.

    And the bad judgement of Blair (negated by the bad judgement of the Tories supporting him) negates the bad judgement of Cameron how?

    Coulson was vetted. Cameron either knew enough to know that at best believing Coulson's assurance was high political risk. Or he chose to ignore all the warnings so that he could say "how was I supposed to know". Either way his judgement is appalling.

    many would argue Blair has committed heinous crimes and should stand trial for it.
    Lying to secure the support of IDS is a minor matter compared to hundreds of thousands of deaths.

    That's somewhat wide of the mark.

    With notable exceptions Conservatives were critical of Blair for not acting earlier, even before the "dodgy dossier" appeared.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2014

    OK, a candidate who he doesn't want (and nor do Miliband and Clegg) might get appointed, but so what?

    That would have been a viable way to play it, but by threatening exit Cameron has:
    1) Turned it into a dry run for the renegotiation, which was supposed to be based on other leaders being prepared to make all kinds of concessions to prevent brexit.
    2) Set himself up to look a twonk if they pick Juncker and he doesn't do anything.

    The political danger is that backbenchers expect some kind of response, and get upset that it isn't forthcoming.

    As far as the Coulson thing goes it probably won't particularly bother Tory MPs specifically, but the problem is if the media start talking like his first name is "Beleagered", which sets the stage for a revolt.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    There is an apparent lack of self-proclaimed profundity in Cameron's apology over Coulson.It was not "profound" in the sense that it did not show wisdom that is neither recondite or abstruse.Furthermore,there was no intellectual depth; penetrating knowledge or keen insight to justify such a claim of profundity.In fact,quite the opposite is in appearance,one which confirms Ed's view that Cameron lacks his intellectual self-confidence.
    All in all an apology of sorts but a "profound" one,no.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    ToryJim said:
    I've already seen her naked.

    (She's great in the film "Not Another Happy Ending")
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    BobaFett said:

    @Socrates

    The only fair way to judge this is subsidy as a proportion of passenger revenue. Read, and learn...

    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/taxpayer_subsidy_train_network_nationalisation-3391

    No, it's not. A government pays a subsidy to get an output. Thus the right way to assess how much they are paying is the cost per unit of output. By your logic, if a train company discovered some innovative new technology that allowed them to halve fares despite putting on the same level of service, that would mean the government subsidy went up. That's obviously ridiculous.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Morton's Fork is a time-honoured tool of government, and I see no reason why David Cameron shouldn't be impaled on it.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,960
    edited June 2014
    deleted

  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    BobaFett said:

    @Casino - similar as in much higher? The railway was privatised in 1994, when it was the most efficient system in Europe. As the chart shows.

    Subsidy as a % of total revenue was between 40% and 50% during 1991-1994. In 2011 it looks to be below 40%.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Scrapheap

    I'm sure Dan Hodges is run by some sort of algorithm, endlessly shouting into a vacuum a la the Chinese across the straits to Taiwan. You can fade him in and out and when you return he'll be saying the same three things as he was a week, a month, a year ago. A beacon of consistency in a dangerously changing world.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    AveryLP said:

    The results in so far:

    Count 1: conspiring to hack phones between 3 October 2000 and 9 August 2006

    • Andy Coulson was found guilty on Count 1

    • Rebekah Brooks was found not guilty on Count 1

    • Stuart Kuttner was found not guilty on Count 1

    Count 2: conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office

    • The jury are yet to return verdicts on this charge faced by Coulson and Clive Goodman

    Count 3: conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office

    • The jury are yet to return verdicts on this charge faced by Coulson and Clive Goodman

    Count 4: conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office

    • Rebekah Brooks was found not guilty on Count 4.

    Count 5: conspiracy to commit misconduct in public office

    • Rebekah Brooks was found not guilty on Count 5.

    Count 6: conspiracy to pervert the course of justice

    • Rebekah Brooks and Cheryl Carter were found not guilty on Count 6.

    Count 7: perverting the course of justice

    • Rebekah Brooks, Charlie Brook and Mark Hanna were found not guilty on Count 7.

    I bet Rebekah will throw a tremendous party in celebration of her not guilty verdicts.

    I don't suppose those of us in her mini PB fan club will get an invite. :(
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,687
    Socrates said:

    @RochdalePioneers

    A good post. When Cameron employed Coulson, he must have known he was either (a) guilty in being involved or (b) hapless in not knowing what his immediate staff were doing.

    It was obviously a huge negative in recruiting him, and Coulson's talents don't seem to be so much larger than any other spin doctor in making up for it. The obvious conclusion is that there were other advantages in recruiting Coulson, namely the good favour of Rupert Murdoch.

    Who knows. I'm not sure Cameron gave it that much thought. He probably thought Coulson would help him get over his message in the tabloid press (including Murdoch's) in the run-up to the 2010 GE more than the other candidates. He probably didn't spend too much time researching and investigating before making that decision, and followed the path of least resistance in making it when being lobbied/advised on it.

    Once Coulson on board, it's clear the two men got on well and struck up a friendship. And we know Cameron is loyal to and defends his friends.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited June 2014
    JackW said:


    vs Iraq.

    Is Iraq more serious than Coulson? Absolutely. But politically the difficulty was always that the Tories gave Blair and the war their full support. Hard to turn it party political when both sides thought it was a good idea. And Blair hasn't committed a crime.

    And the bad judgement of Blair (negated by the bad judgement of the Tories supporting him) negates the bad judgement of Cameron how?

    Coulson was vetted. Cameron either knew enough to know that at best believing Coulson's assurance was high political risk. Or he chose to ignore all the warnings so that he could say "how was I supposed to know". Either way his judgement is appalling.

    many would argue Blair has committed heinous crimes and should stand trial for it.
    Lying to secure the support of IDS is a minor matter compared to hundreds of thousands of deaths.

    That's somewhat wide of the mark.

    With notable exceptions Conservatives were critical of Blair for not acting earlier, even before the "dodgy dossier" appeared.

    To be fair, the Tory Party had lost it mind around the period of 2001, 2002 and 2003...
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Socrates

    The private rail companies halving fares? I thought comedy hour was on Fridays.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Socrates said:

    JackW said:

    Socrates said:

    @RochdalePioneers

    A good post. When Cameron employed Coulson, he must have known he was either (a) guilty in being involved or (b) hapless in not knowing what his immediate staff were doing.

    It was obviously a huge negative in recruiting him, and Coulson's talents don't seem to be so much larger than any other spin doctor in making up for it. The obvious conclusion is that there were other advantages in recruiting Coulson, namely the good favour of Rupert Murdoch.


    A quite bizarre post .... featuring that either

    1. Cameron knew of Coulson's criminal activities and employed him regardless.

    or

    2. Cameron didn't know something that he didn't know and is therefore guilty of not knowing.

    I tip my titfer to you Sir.

    Chortle ....

    I think you misread my sentence. I wasn't claiming that Cameron knew one of (a) or (b), he just knew that either (a) or (b) must be true.
    Gibberish.

    How might Cameron know that option (b) might be true when he didn't know of it in the first place ?

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    And in what conceivable world is Cameron's EU policy likely to collapse in the near future?

    You could argue that Cameron's EU policy is only now unfolding. If he meets with the brick wall the press are suggesting, he has the option of taking UKIP's ground on the EU.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    BobaFett said:

    @Casino - similar as in much higher? The railway was privatised in 1994, when it was the most efficient system in Europe. As the chart shows.

    Only a left-winger would judge efficiency without any thought to how much stuff was actually being produced.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Tricky - close out bet on SL and thus ensure a tumbling of wickets

    or

    let bet run, england avoid defeat but I lose £100.

    the perils of controlling sporting fate in my hands...
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Cameron has already come out and issued an apology, just as he pledged he would do a few years ago if it proved that Coulson had not been truthful with him.

    Its when you get Gordon Brown trying to avoid issuing an apology over the McBride scandal for nearly a week that a PM will tend to run into trouble. And this was a scandal which happened within Downing Street and under Brown's Premiership.

    Socrates said:

    It's fairly amusing Tories on this thread repeatedly remark that no-one cares, when they went on and on and on about Rennard, Huhne etc.

    Good point and my guess is that in the medium term the impact will be the same. Almost none.

    Agree, provided Cameron:
    1) Survives the week.
    2) Doesn't feel the need to say or do something impactful in order to survive the week.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    JackW said:


    Gibberish.

    How might Cameron know that option (b) might be true when he didn't know of it in the first place ?

    Cameron knew that phone hacking had gone on at News of the World when he recruited Coulson. Coulson had already resigned from NotW over it.
  • peterbusspeterbuss Posts: 109
    Be very interesting to be able to revisit some of the quotes on Rebekah Brooks made by Tom Watson and Ed.M when all this blew up in 2011. She was certainly defamed and portrayed as the most awful wicked witch and David Cameron was stridently abused for refusing to denounce her I the Show Trial that went on in Parliament at that time. I would like to think that the Watson's of this world might apologise as well but I shan't be holding my breath.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    taffys said:


    You could argue that Cameron's EU policy is only now unfolding. If he meets with the brick wall the press are suggesting, he has the option of taking UKIP's ground on the EU.

    That would be ditching his own policy, which would have failed, and instead adopting the policy of an opposition party.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    "Tom Watson has far more to apologise for"

    I tend to assume the worst of Mr Watson. I think it's because he reminds me of Gerald Campion (aka Billy Bunter), but I suppose that's being fattist.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2014
    O/T:

    30 minutes ago England were 80/1 on Betfair to win at Headingley. They're now 18/1.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    My final contribution for the afternoon.

    Cash out on Sri Lanka now.

    Yorkshire's Joe Root is saving England.

    I've backed Costa Rica to win today, I've also backed Uruguay and Italy to win their match, I don't foresee a draw.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    peterbuss said:

    Be very interesting to be able to revisit some of the quotes on Rebekah Brooks made by Tom Watson and Ed.M when all this blew up in 2011. She was certainly defamed and portrayed as the most awful wicked witch and David Cameron was stridently abused for refusing to denounce her I the Show Trial that went on in Parliament at that time. I would like to think that the Watson's of this world might apologise as well but I shan't be holding my breath.


    Who can forgot the journalistic genius that was horsegate

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/mar/02/david-cameron-police-horse-rebekah-brooks
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    taffys said:


    You could argue that Cameron's EU policy is only now unfolding. If he meets with the brick wall the press are suggesting, he has the option of taking UKIP's ground on the EU.

    That would be ditching his own policy, which would have failed, and instead adopting the policy of an opposition party.
    I'd vote for him if he did it.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    peterbuss said:

    Be very interesting to be able to revisit some of the quotes on Rebekah Brooks made by Tom Watson and Ed.M when all this blew up in 2011. She was certainly defamed and portrayed as the most awful wicked witch and David Cameron was stridently abused for refusing to denounce her I the Show Trial that went on in Parliament at that time. I would like to think that the Watson's of this world might apologise as well but I shan't be holding my breath.

    That is an interesting point, and one that may blunt Eds enthusiasm for the topic at PMQs.

    Cameron has made his apology, as Coulson is now found guilty.

    Where is the apology from Watson, Milliband et al for the opprobrium and accusations that were gleefully lavished on and directed at the innocent Ms Brookes?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''That would be ditching his own policy, which would have failed, and instead adopting the policy of an opposition party. ''

    If Juncker is appointed and reform dead in the water, I don;t see what choice Cameron has. He wouldn't make a terribly convincing skeptic, perhaps, but skeptic he would have to become.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Socrates said:

    JackW said:


    Gibberish.

    How might Cameron know that option (b) might be true when he didn't know of it in the first place ?

    Cameron knew that phone hacking had gone on at News of the World when he recruited Coulson. Coulson had already resigned from NotW over it.
    Coulson took overall responsibility and resigned but not because he was criminally involved.

    The Prime Minister accepted Coulson's assurances and the vetting process and gave him a second chance.

    Cameron was deceived by someone he trusted. An unenviable situation which I'd hope few of us should have the misfortune to suffer.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,687
    BobaFett said:

    @Casino - similar as in much higher? The railway was privatised in 1994, when it was the most efficient system in Europe. As the chart shows.

    You must be looking at a different chart to me. There are only two I can see in that fact-check article, to which both you and I have posted a link. They both show that subsidy levels as a % of total revenue is down compared to 1994.

    In case you missed it, quoting directly from the article: "The latest figures (October 2012) from the Office for Rail Regulation show that government subsidies to the rail industry totalled £3.901 billion in 2011/12, or 35% of total industry revenue."

    From the caption beneath the chart: "This picture shows that, in the last few years of British Rail’s existence, the proportion of government subsidy to passenger revenue was between 40 and 50 per cent."

    So, sorry, but that's a decrease.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    taffys said:

    ''That would be ditching his own policy, which would have failed, and instead adopting the policy of an opposition party. ''

    If Juncker is appointed and reform dead in the water, I don;t see what choice Cameron has. He wouldn't make a terribly convincing skeptic, perhaps, but skeptic he would have to become.

    It would be a development of his position according to the changed circumstances. His goal (if you believe it) is significant reform and renegotiation. If that is not available, then he has to select which to support from status quo and out.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    My final contribution for the afternoon.

    Cash out on Sri Lanka now.

    Yorkshire's Joe Root is saving England.

    I've backed Costa Rica to win today, I've also backed Uruguay and Italy to win their match, I don't foresee a draw.

    I'll stick with SL....
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Root out for 31.

    England 124/6
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2014

    There is an apparent lack of self-proclaimed profundity in Cameron's apology over Coulson.It was not "profound" in the sense that it did not show wisdom that is neither recondite or abstruse.Furthermore,there was no intellectual depth; penetrating knowledge or keen insight to justify such a claim of profundity.In fact,quite the opposite is in appearance,one which confirms Ed's view that Cameron lacks his intellectual self-confidence.
    All in all an apology of sorts but a "profound" one,no.

    Profound has two meanings.

    In the context of a "profound apology", which is an expression of an emotional state or quality, it means "very great" or "intense". This is the sense in which Cameron used the term "profound apology".

    The secondary meaning of profound, when used to describe a person or statement, is "showing great insight or knowledge" does not apply in the context used by Cameron.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Wimbledon odds, Betfair:

    Djokovic 2.74
    Murray 5.4
    Nadal 6.2
    Federer 6.4
    Dimitrov 20
    Wawrinka 27
    Raonic 50
    Berdych 80
    Gulbis 85
    Nishikori 95
    Tsonga 100

    http://www.betfair.com/exchange/tennis/event?id=27213935
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,960
    JackW said:

    The Prime Minister accepted Coulson's assurances and the vetting process and gave him a second chance.

    Cameron was deceived by someone he trusted. An unenviable situation which I'd hope few of us should have the misfortune to suffer.

    And this shows that Cameron's political judgement is sound because......?

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I'd vote for him if he did it.

    What else can he do? come back from Europe with nothing and claim its a victory when he has clearly been utterly humiliated??
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Root gone.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    JackW said:


    vs Iraq.

    Is Iraq more serious than Coulson? Absolutely. But politically the difficulty was always that the Tories gave Blair and the war their full support. Hard to turn it party political when both sides thought it was a good idea. And Blair hasn't committed a crime.

    And the bad judgement of Blair (negated by the bad judgement of the Tories supporting him) negates the bad judgement of Cameron how?

    Coulson was vetted. Cameron either knew enough to know that at best believing Coulson's assurance was high political risk. Or he chose to ignore all the warnings so that he could say "how was I supposed to know". Either way his judgement is appalling.

    many would argue Blair has committed heinous crimes and should stand trial for it.
    Lying to secure the support of IDS is a minor matter compared to hundreds of thousands of deaths.

    That's somewhat wide of the mark.

    With notable exceptions Conservatives were critical of Blair for not acting earlier, even before the "dodgy dossier" appeared.

    Not that it matters, but not this Tory.
    Biggest mistake since winning in 92 for the PCP
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2014
    taffys said:

    ''That would be ditching his own policy, which would have failed, and instead adopting the policy of an opposition party. ''

    If Juncker is appointed and reform dead in the water, I don;t see what choice Cameron has. He wouldn't make a terribly convincing skeptic, perhaps, but skeptic he would have to become.

    Hence the short-term fire risk. It probably won't result in the leadership going up in flames at the end of the week, but you never know...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    England price nudges down after wicket - 226 runs to win.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited June 2014
    Socrates said:

    JackW said:


    Gibberish.

    How might Cameron know that option (b) might be true when he didn't know of it in the first place ?

    Cameron knew that phone hacking had gone on at News of the World when he recruited Coulson. Coulson had already resigned from NotW over it.
    I think we are in danger of misremembering what was known at the time – If memory recalls, the NoW Royal correspondent was convicted of hacking the princes’ phones and subsequently jailed. As a result Coulson resigned, however the police investigation at the time found no evidence to suggest Coulson was involved or that ‘hacking’ was widespread within the NoW.

    If anything, the police investigation gave Coulson a clean bill of health, as the ‘Motorman inquiry’ had not been published and in fact had been sat on for several years.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    JackW said:

    The Prime Minister accepted Coulson's assurances and the vetting process and gave him a second chance.

    Cameron was deceived by someone he trusted. An unenviable situation which I'd hope few of us should have the misfortune to suffer.

    And this shows that Cameron's political judgement is sound because......?

    Ed Miliband supported Gordon for PM - when he was quite clearly unsuitable without the need for any vetting.

    No crime was committed whilst AC was at no 10 - the end.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    peterbuss said:

    Be very interesting to be able to revisit some of the quotes on Rebekah Brooks made by Tom Watson and Ed.M when all this blew up in 2011. She was certainly defamed and portrayed as the most awful wicked witch and David Cameron was stridently abused for refusing to denounce her I the Show Trial that went on in Parliament at that time. I would like to think that the Watson's of this world might apologise as well but I shan't be holding my breath.

    It's safe to say Mrs Brooks had the "forces from hell" well and truly unleashed upon her by "you know who" and his associates.

    But she survived.

    What a woman! :D



  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Ed Miliband has now spoken on the issue. Unfortunately for him, Ed Balls couldn't resist taking a pot shot at Osborne in the Commons which opened up the door to the Damien McBride scandal, and now he too has waded in.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Anyone not following Richard M. Nixon on Twitter, it's consistently really good.
    .@Number10gov Regarding Coulson, you are not just "sorry." You are betrayed. Here is a nefarious fellow who lied to you.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    taffys said:

    If Juncker is appointed and reform dead in the water, I don;t see what choice Cameron has. He wouldn't make a terribly convincing skeptic, perhaps, but skeptic he would have to become.

    We won't be negotiating with Juncker (or whoever gets the post). We will be negotiating with other EU countries, particularly Germany. The appointment of Juncker, if it happens, might be a sign that they are going to play hardball; well, two can play at that game. Assuming we get a Conservative government, our EU friends will have to decide if they want to make an effort to keep us in the EU, or not. Until such time as we actually do that negotiation, we won't know what the deal will be, but we do know that it won't be Juncker whom we have to do a deal with.

  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    philiph said:


    vs Iraq.

    Is Iraq more serious than Coulson? Absolutely. But politically the difficulty was always that the Tories gave Blair and the war their full support. Hard to turn it party political when both sides thought it was a good idea. And Blair hasn't committed a crime.

    And the bad judgement of Blair (negated by the bad judgement of the Tories supporting him) negates the bad judgement of Cameron how?

    Coulson was vetted. Cameron either knew enough to know that at best believing Coulson's assurance was high political risk. Or he chose to ignore all the warnings so that he could say "how was I supposed to know". Either way his judgement is appalling.

    Bad judgement based on information that was less than economical with the truth, it bore no resemblance to the truth.

    If a crime was committed, then AC & TB are guilty in spades in relative terms. (where AC = Campbell and TB = Blair).

    Cameron believing Coulsons innocence, Coulsons crimes compared to going to war on a false prospectus.

    I think I can work out the serious issue there.

    Deaths as a result of hacking, versus deaths as a result of the 'dodgy' dossier and subsequent war.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Miss Fitalass, it's interesting to compare and contrast the media coverage over this issue and Phil 'make the whites angry' Woolas, or, indeed, Damien McBride.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    fitalass said:

    Ed Miliband has now spoken on the issue. Unfortunately for him, Ed Balls couldn't resist taking a pot shot at Osborne in the Commons which opened up the door to the Damien McBride scandal, and now he too has waded in.

    But he can eat a tomato salad with his toes, so vote Ed
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Casino

    As you well know it has fallen in the last few years but has historically been much higher not least due to the taxpayer having to bail out the expensive consequences of a botched privatisation. You would know this if you actually read the article.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2014

    taffys said:

    If Juncker is appointed and reform dead in the water, I don;t see what choice Cameron has. He wouldn't make a terribly convincing skeptic, perhaps, but skeptic he would have to become.

    We won't be negotiating with Juncker (or whoever gets the post). We will be negotiating with other EU countries, particularly Germany. The appointment of Juncker, if it happens, might be a sign that they are going to play hardball; well, two can play at that game. Assuming we get a Conservative government, our EU friends will have to decide if they want to make an effort to keep us in the EU, or not. Until such time as we actually do that negotiation, we won't know what the deal will be, but we do know that it won't be Juncker whom we have to do a deal with.

    Agreed, in practice Juncker has very little to do with it, and if he did he'd actually be exactly the kind of pragmatic conservative fixer you needed in place to cut the necessary deals. The short-term catch (and again, this is only short-term - if everyone keeps their heads for a few weeks the whole thing will be fish and chip wrappers, as will the Coulson story) is that Cameron has been messaging the opposite.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    philiph said:


    vs Iraq.

    Is Iraq more serious than Coulson? Absolutely. But politically the difficulty was always that the Tories gave Blair and the war their full support. Hard to turn it party political when both sides thought it was a good idea. And Blair hasn't committed a crime.

    And the bad judgement of Blair (negated by the bad judgement of the Tories supporting him) negates the bad judgement of Cameron how?

    Coulson was vetted. Cameron either knew enough to know that at best believing Coulson's assurance was high political risk. Or he chose to ignore all the warnings so that he could say "how was I supposed to know". Either way his judgement is appalling.

    Bad judgement based on information that was less than economical with the truth, it bore no resemblance to the truth.

    If a crime was committed, then AC & TB are guilty in spades in relative terms. (where AC = Campbell and TB = Blair).

    Cameron believing Coulsons innocence, Coulsons crimes compared to going to war on a false prospectus.

    I think I can work out the serious issue there.

    Deaths as a result of hacking, versus deaths as a result of the 'dodgy' dossier and subsequent war.
    Sorry but that is the ultimate PBTory "yeah but whatabout?" post. I happen to think Coulson gate will make no difference to VI, but bringing in the Iraq War decision into this is sheer desperation. Suck it up.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    The Prime Minister accepted Coulson's assurances and the vetting process and gave him a second chance.

    Cameron was deceived by someone he trusted. An unenviable situation which I'd hope few of us should have the misfortune to suffer.

    And this shows that Cameron's political judgement is sound because......?

    It shows that for the best of reasons that the Prime Minister made a mistake and on this issue his judgement was misplaced.

    Cameron will be judged in the round come next May but I'd be willing to venture that matters other than Coulson will weigh on the mind of the voters that day.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    taffys said:


    You could argue that Cameron's EU policy is only now unfolding. If he meets with the brick wall the press are suggesting, he has the option of taking UKIP's ground on the EU.

    That would be ditching his own policy, which would have failed, and instead adopting the policy of an opposition party.
    UKIP isn't an opposition party. Not yet. Act now before they are.

    Cameron can say the Gnomes of Europe have refused to listen to its members, having gone off in the direction of greater federalism - and that is not in the UK's interests. So with what is currently on offer from Europe - which is the sod-all, suck-it-up-UK-if-we-appoint-Juncker position - he has reluctantly come to the view that the Europe on offer is broken. Whilst it stays that way, he will be recommending the UK votes to leave....

    Con majority nailed on.

    Which may be the reason he is forcing a vote on Juncker's appointment.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    BobaFett said:

    philiph said:


    vs Iraq.

    Is Iraq more serious than Coulson? Absolutely. But politically the difficulty was always that the Tories gave Blair and the war their full support. Hard to turn it party political when both sides thought it was a good idea. And Blair hasn't committed a crime.

    And the bad judgement of Blair (negated by the bad judgement of the Tories supporting him) negates the bad judgement of Cameron how?

    Coulson was vetted. Cameron either knew enough to know that at best believing Coulson's assurance was high political risk. Or he chose to ignore all the warnings so that he could say "how was I supposed to know". Either way his judgement is appalling.

    Bad judgement based on information that was less than economical with the truth, it bore no resemblance to the truth.

    If a crime was committed, then AC & TB are guilty in spades in relative terms. (where AC = Campbell and TB = Blair).

    Cameron believing Coulsons innocence, Coulsons crimes compared to going to war on a false prospectus.

    I think I can work out the serious issue there.

    Deaths as a result of hacking, versus deaths as a result of the 'dodgy' dossier and subsequent war.
    Sorry but that is the ultimate PBTory "yeah but whatabout?" post. I happen to think Coulson gate will make no difference to VI, but bringing in the Iraq War decision into this is sheer desperation. Suck it up.
    It's Labours dirty little crime, always worth bringing it up until those responsible have paid the price and Labour an electoral price. Blair, Campbell and chief death funder Brown behind bars would be a start.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    taffys said:

    If Juncker is appointed and reform dead in the water, I don;t see what choice Cameron has. He wouldn't make a terribly convincing skeptic, perhaps, but skeptic he would have to become.

    We won't be negotiating with Juncker (or whoever gets the post). We will be negotiating with other EU countries, particularly Germany. The appointment of Juncker, if it happens, might be a sign that they are going to play hardball; well, two can play at that game. Assuming we get a Conservative government, our EU friends will have to decide if they want to make an effort to keep us in the EU, or not. Until such time as we actually do that negotiation, we won't know what the deal will be, but we do know that it won't be Juncker whom we have to do a deal with.

    Agreed, in practice Juncker has very little to do with it, and if he did he'd actually be exactly the kind of pragmatic conservative fixer you needed in place to cut the necessary deals. The short-term catch (and again, this is only short-term - suck it up for a few weeks and the whole thing will be fish and chip wrappers, as will the Coulson story) is that Cameron has been messaging the opposite.
    Which if you are a little Machiavellian may be a good ploy by Cameron to indicate to the other leaders he will continue to battle for his view to be upheld and will not cave in if there is the prospect of defeat.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    philiph said:

    taffys said:

    If Juncker is appointed and reform dead in the water, I don;t see what choice Cameron has. He wouldn't make a terribly convincing skeptic, perhaps, but skeptic he would have to become.

    We won't be negotiating with Juncker (or whoever gets the post). We will be negotiating with other EU countries, particularly Germany. The appointment of Juncker, if it happens, might be a sign that they are going to play hardball; well, two can play at that game. Assuming we get a Conservative government, our EU friends will have to decide if they want to make an effort to keep us in the EU, or not. Until such time as we actually do that negotiation, we won't know what the deal will be, but we do know that it won't be Juncker whom we have to do a deal with.

    Agreed, in practice Juncker has very little to do with it, and if he did he'd actually be exactly the kind of pragmatic conservative fixer you needed in place to cut the necessary deals. The short-term catch (and again, this is only short-term - suck it up for a few weeks and the whole thing will be fish and chip wrappers, as will the Coulson story) is that Cameron has been messaging the opposite.
    Which if you are a little Machiavellian may be a good ploy by Cameron to indicate to the other leaders he will continue to battle for his view to be upheld and will not cave in if there is the prospect of defeat.
    lol
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    The short-term catch (and again, this is only short-term - suck it up for a few weeks and the whole thing will be fish and chip wrappers, as will the Coulson story) is that Cameron has been messaging the opposite.

    Yes, the messaging is interesting. I'm sure that there is plenty of posturing going on, but I'm not sure who is doing it or why.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    GIN1138 said:

    peterbuss said:

    Be very interesting to be able to revisit some of the quotes on Rebekah Brooks made by Tom Watson and Ed.M when all this blew up in 2011. She was certainly defamed and portrayed as the most awful wicked witch and David Cameron was stridently abused for refusing to denounce her I the Show Trial that went on in Parliament at that time. I would like to think that the Watson's of this world might apologise as well but I shan't be holding my breath.

    It's safe to say Mrs Brooks had the "forces from hell" well and truly unleashed upon her by "you know who" and his associates.

    But she survived.

    What a woman! :D



    Tom Watson is far less pleasant than he looks.

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    taffys said:


    You could argue that Cameron's EU policy is only now unfolding. If he meets with the brick wall the press are suggesting, he has the option of taking UKIP's ground on the EU.

    That would be ditching his own policy, which would have failed, and instead adopting the policy of an opposition party.
    UKIP isn't an opposition party. Not yet. Act now before they are.

    Cameron can say the Gnomes of Europe have refused to listen to its members, having gone off in the direction of greater federalism - and that is not in the UK's interests. So with what is currently on offer from Europe - which is the sod-all, suck-it-up-UK-if-we-appoint-Juncker position - he has reluctantly come to the view that the Europe on offer is broken. Whilst it stays that way, he will be recommending the UK votes to leave....

    Con majority nailed on.

    Which may be the reason he is forcing a vote on Juncker's appointment.
    UKIP would likely withdraw from opposing sitting Tory MPs in that circumstance, Clarke and Soubry aside ;-)

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779
    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Oh please Ed...it's not like they've died!!
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    peterbuss said:

    Be very interesting to be able to revisit some of the quotes on Rebekah Brooks made by Tom Watson and Ed.M when all this blew up in 2011. She was certainly defamed and portrayed as the most awful wicked witch and David Cameron was stridently abused for refusing to denounce her I the Show Trial that went on in Parliament at that time. I would like to think that the Watson's of this world might apologise as well but I shan't be holding my breath.

    It's safe to say Mrs Brooks had the "forces from hell" well and truly unleashed upon her by "you know who" and his associates.

    But she survived.

    What a woman! :D



    Tom Watson is far less pleasant than he looks.

    Is that possible?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Oh please Ed...it's not like they've died!!

    Many of them are however celebrities. He knows what he's doing.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Oh please Ed...it's not like they've died!!

    Some of their relatives have.

    That said - pass the sick bucket. Oh wait it's on the bandwagon.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Oh please Ed...it's not like they've died!!

    Lol, he said eating a bacon sandwich garnished with the flowers he forgot he was being photographed buying for his wife.
    This perfidious message listening to, it's intolerable!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,687
    BobaFett said:

    @Casino

    As you well know it has fallen in the last few years but has historically been much higher not least due to the taxpayer having to bail out the expensive consequences of a botched privatisation. You would know this if you actually read the article.

    I have read the article - I posted it before you did. I just disagree with your baseless conclusions.

    Telling people to re-read graphs and articles until they agree with you, out of frustration at your failure to convince them with your arguments, isn't going to win over anybody to your point of view.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Oh please Ed...it's not like they've died!!

    My thoughts today are with the next 5 YouGovs
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Oh please Ed...it's not like they've died!!

    Many of them are however celebrities. He knows what he's doing.
    Celebs, the next class of overpaid useless idiots that will alienate voters from the parties they purport to support.

    Celeb endorsements could well turn negative. If you are a political celeb, expect to have your tax affairs scrutinised in depth and detail.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Oh please Ed...it's not like they've died!!

    Many of them are however celebrities. He knows what he's doing.
    Going for the serial shagging and drug taking vote?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Which may be the reason he is forcing a vote on Juncker's appointment.''

    Given that Juncker himself has, in EiT's phrase, 'very little to do with it' I can;t think of any other reason.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    BobaFett said:

    @Scrapheap

    I'm sure Dan Hodges is run by some sort of algorithm, endlessly shouting into a vacuum a la the Chinese across the straits to Taiwan. You can fade him in and out and when you return he'll be saying the same three things as he was a week, a month, a year ago. A beacon of consistency in a dangerously changing world.

    Hmm, did Hodges emerge about the same time tim disappeared?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Oh please Ed...it's not like they've died!!

    My thoughts today are with the next 5 YouGovs
    The next Yougov won't have any effect shown. Friday's will probably b the earliest to show a 2 point dip in Camo's approval ratings or w/e.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    judge not happy re all these comments when some charges yet to be decided.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited June 2014

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Is that for real?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Another off-topic question, can anyone think of any non left-wing (perhaps right-wing would be a bit of a stretch) comedians?

    Ken Dodd, still going strong aged almost 87...
    http://www.ents24.com/uk/tour-dates/ken-dodd
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Why should people have to tolerate sneery hacks intruding into their private lives just because they are slebs? Phone hacking is, rightly, illegal. The fact that they are slebs is entirely irrelevant.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband · 3 mins
    My thoughts today are most importantly with the victims of phone hacking who suffered terrible intrusion into their privacy.

    Oh please Ed...it's not like they've died!!

    Many of them are however celebrities. He knows what he's doing.
    Going for the serial shagging and drug taking vote?
    The David Tennant serial luvvie vote
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Casino

    I am merely pointing out what the article shows.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    How about the innocent of Syria, Mr. Miliband, abandoned by you to a fate far worse than phone hacking. Thoughts today not with them?
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Dyed

    Maybe so, but it has nothing to do with this debate. It's like me saying "yeah but whatabout the poll tax" when the PBTories were wetting themselves over a bacon sandwich.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    My thoughts right now are with multi-millionaire's like Steve Coogan, Hugh Grant and Sienna Miller.

    What a life of tragedy and toil the poor loves must have to endure. :(
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937



    Going for the serial shagging and drug taking vote?

    I thought he already had the Liverpool vote sewn up?

    That Sun photo-op must have hurt more than we know.....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Fett, quite a few people (me, for example) said that whilst the photos were clearly not very flattering they also didn't matter a jot, or words to that effect.

    When referring to a matter of judgement, I'd rather have Cameron's misjudgement on a matter of personnel, than Blair's over Iraq's, or Miliband's political game-playing over Syria.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Those vast number of empty rows of seats at Headingley are awful and just £5 for adults and kid free !!

    Poor advert for test cricket.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    A keyboard warrior who has recently decamped from PB must have very itchy fingers.

    I would have liked to have read his comments on DC and AC...
This discussion has been closed.