The trend away from speaking English has increased this year at Tower Hamlets Council meetings in East London, it has been claimed.
Now one of the councillors has made an official complaint about the use of Bengali - widely spoken among councillors who hail from Bangladesh - in the council chamber.
Councillor Abdal Ullah claims he was insulted, but some of the English-speaking councillors and public visitors failed to realise what had happened.
The Labour councillor claims he was called a "shurer batcha" - which means "Son of a pig" -- by a rival councillor during a heated exchange last month.
The slur is extremely offensive to Muslims. Councillor Ullah said in letter to the council's Standards Committee: "Whilst we may have our differences, councillors should afford one another courtesy in our exchanges rather than resorting to unnecessary and abusive insults."
He added that he was concerned that only English should be used in council meetings.
He wrote: "In my view the use of Bengali or other languages - other than in translation during public questions or petitions and so on - disrupts the transparency and openness of meeting by preventing some present from understanding the exchanges taking place."
Other complaints about the use of Bengali during meetings are also understood to have been received at the town hall.
My Mum worked for Tower Hamlets council in the finance dept for about 20 years until 2006... Lifelong trade union member/Labour voter, she said if anybody mentioned it being unacceptable for so many people not to speak English in the borough the looks you got cut like a knife and tumbleweeds blew through the office.
Its hardly suprising though. The Borough is completely segregated and ghettoised. It is roughly 50/50 white British/Asian in population, but the predominantly Bangladeshi Asians live on one side and the " white British" on the other. The street names in the Bangladesh side of the town are in English and Bengali, few white British people live there, why would anyone bother to speak English?
They absolutely should. It's beyond being unhappy with Cameron in some quarters, it's almost active disloyalty and telling their, nominal, party that they should be just like some other party, in which case why don't they join it already.
The trend away from speaking English has increased this year at Tower Hamlets Council meetings in East London, it has been claimed.
Now one of the councillors has made an official complaint about the use of Bengali - widely spoken among councillors who hail from Bangladesh - in the council chamber.
Councillor Abdal Ullah claims he was insulted, but some of the English-speaking councillors and public visitors failed to realise what had happened.
The Labour councillor claims he was called a "shurer batcha" - which means "Son of a pig" -- by a rival councillor during a heated exchange last month.
The slur is extremely offensive to Muslims. Councillor Ullah said in letter to the council's Standards Committee: "Whilst we may have our differences, councillors should afford one another courtesy in our exchanges rather than resorting to unnecessary and abusive insults."
He added that he was concerned that only English should be used in council meetings.
He wrote: "In my view the use of Bengali or other languages - other than in translation during public questions or petitions and so on - disrupts the transparency and openness of meeting by preventing some present from understanding the exchanges taking place."
Other complaints about the use of Bengali during meetings are also understood to have been received at the town hall.
My Mum worked for Tower Hamlets council in the finance dept for about 20 years until 2006... Lifelong trade union member/Labour voter, she said if anybody mentioned it being unacceptable for so many people not to speak English in the borough the looks you got cut like a knife and tumbleweeds blew through the office.
Its hardly suprising though. The Borough is completely segregated and ghettoised. It is roughly 50/50 white British/Asian in population, but the predominantly Bangladeshi Asians live on one side and the " white British" on the other. The street names in the Bangladesh side of the town are in English and Bengali, few white British people live there, why would anyone bother to speak English?
The trend away from speaking English has increased this year at Tower Hamlets Council meetings in East London, it has been claimed.
Now one of the councillors has made an official complaint about the use of Bengali - widely spoken among councillors who hail from Bangladesh - in the council chamber.
Councillor Abdal Ullah claims he was insulted, but some of the English-speaking councillors and public visitors failed to realise what had happened.
The Labour councillor claims he was called a "shurer batcha" - which means "Son of a pig" -- by a rival councillor during a heated exchange last month.
The slur is extremely offensive to Muslims. Councillor Ullah said in letter to the council's Standards Committee: "Whilst we may have our differences, councillors should afford one another courtesy in our exchanges rather than resorting to unnecessary and abusive insults."
He added that he was concerned that only English should be used in council meetings.
He wrote: "In my view the use of Bengali or other languages - other than in translation during public questions or petitions and so on - disrupts the transparency and openness of meeting by preventing some present from understanding the exchanges taking place."
Other complaints about the use of Bengali during meetings are also understood to have been received at the town hall.
My Mum worked for Tower Hamlets council in the finance dept for about 20 years until 2006... Lifelong trade union member/Labour voter, she said if anybody mentioned it being unacceptable for so many people not to speak English in the borough the looks you got cut like a knife and tumbleweeds blew through the office.
Its hardly suprising though. The Borough is completely segregated and ghettoised. It is roughly 50/50 white British/Asian in population, but the predominantly Bangladeshi Asians live on one side and the " white British" on the other. The street names in the Bangladesh side of the town are in English and Bengali, few white British people live there, why would anyone bother to speak English?
Dont know why tim is biting here, I only pointed out that it isnt surprising that no one speaks English at the council in Tower Hamlets when even the street signs are in Bengali.
Somepeople think thats a good thing... up to them
The other side of the borough is the Docklands where rich city types live, it is one of the most lopsided boroughs in London.
Took him 18 minutes to come up with this retort.... clearly a bit rusty! tim would have had this back in seconds surely....
Alastair Campbell@campbellclaret6m @ToryTreasury high horse not best place for team of Chancellor quite as hopeless as this one. While you're here tho- how many targets met?
We're supposed to believe you rather than the census?
See St George's flag nonsense stories for the power of anecdote.
The census backs me up! Its not an anecdote
In a country where the white British population is almost 80%, and street signs are probably 99% in English, it is hardly a stretch to describe the white British population as "few" in a ward where it is 27% and the street signs are in Bengali is it?
I never said it was good or bad, but thats how it is... you provided the figures
Why would anyone need a TV in their bathroom? Surely you should be encouraging people to enjoy similar grand views and read a trashy thriller on the balcony, not waste time watching a movie in the bathtub.
Paul Waugh @paulwaugh So 130 votes for EU referendum. With at least 10 Lab, that's a sizeable Tory 'rebellion' that isn't a rebellion. Whips didn't do well
No rhetorical flourish nor balcony view can make staying in a hotel on the Algarve sound anything but utterly dull.
If you want to liven up your visit, dig up the 18th green of the Vale do Lobo Ocean golf course. If apprehended, claim you are hunting for Madeleine McCann.
You're more likely to get blood out of a stone than a retraction on anything from tim. I think you've done enough for everyone else on here to form their conclusions, so there's no point pushing any more.
No rhetorical flourish nor balcony view can make staying in a hotel on the Algarve sound anything but utterly dull.
If you want to liven up your visit, dig up the 18th green of the Vale do Lobo Ocean golf course. If apprehended, claim you are hunting for Madeleine McCann.
o/t A piece on C4 news about whistle blower gagging clauses in payoffs. Why can they not be unilaterally annulled under a statuary instrument or whatever? I am not a lawyer but it seems bizarre that Government is so powerless to act (assuming it actually wants to).
No rhetorical flourish nor balcony view can make staying in a hotel on the Algarve sound anything but utterly dull.
Indeed. I've never really understood the attraction of those massive luxury hotels. Wherever I go in the world, I'd much rather stay in a small guesthouse run by friendly locals.
Tower Hamlets? No doubt many on the PC-left, including Mark Easton at the BBC, will feel that they should be learning Bengali.
In a curious convergence with my, er, railway predilection, I can point out that neither Aldgate East nor Whitechapel stations have Bengali signage on the platforms, but there is Punjabi (or, if you're pedantic, Panjabi) signage at Southall at the other end of London:
No rhetorical flourish nor balcony view can make staying in a hotel on the Algarve sound anything but utterly dull.
If you want to liven up your visit, dig up the 18th green of the Vale do Lobo Ocean golf course. If apprehended, claim you are hunting for Madeleine McCann.
You're more likely to get blood out of a stone than a retraction on anything from tim. I think you've done enough for everyone else on here to form their conclusions, so there's no point pushing any more.
Cheers
Actually I was quite surprised just how stark the difference in % from one side of Tower Hamlets to the other was
When did you last take a stroll down Brick Lane or Roman Road?
Must be a couple of years ago now.
I walked from Limehouse station to Aldgate East last Thursday though if that helps
*Sorry I thought it said sam not tim!
I've walked almost the entire length of the A13 (or, where no pathway exists on the rural dual carriageway sections, its previous incarnations now local roads) from Aldgate to Shoeburyness - in stages though, not all at once (was over a long period 2003-2007)! Only bits I didn't do were Rainham to Thurrock and Stifford to Grays. Hope to remedy that in the summer!
When did you last take a stroll down Brick Lane or Roman Road?
Must be a couple of years ago now.
I walked from Limehouse station to Aldgate East last Thursday though if that helps
*Sorry I thought it said sam not tim!
I've walked almost the entire length of the A13 (or, where no pathway exists on the rural dual carriageway sections, its previous incarnations now local roads) from Aldgate to Shoeburyness - in stages though, not all at once (was over a long period 2003-2007)! Only bits I didn't do were Rainham to Thurrock and Stifford to Grays. Hope to remedy that in the summer!
Blimey! Thats some going
Rainham to Thurrock? Thats like walking from a place you dont want to be to a place you dont want to go with nothing to see in between!
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
No rhetorical flourish nor balcony view can make staying in a hotel on the Algarve sound anything but utterly dull.
If you want to liven up your visit, dig up the 18th green of the Vale do Lobo Ocean golf course. If apprehended, claim you are hunting for Madeleine McCann.
Avery - Frankie to his mates - Boyle.
Good evening, Mr. Brooke.
Has the O&L parasol arrived?
Mr Pole the sun blazeth in Warwickshire and _ive just spent the day picking apricots for my jam factory. The orange crop should be in next week.
M. Hollande is doing all he can to make the UK look good and we're 3% from an Ed is crap thread. All I need now is Salmond to do something idiotic like campaign to stay in the EU while using sterling........ oh wait.
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
yes, get in your car and drive through Sparkbrook, you'll soon get the idea.
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
Yes
I was talking about the whole of Tower Hamlets
Tim then described a ward on the "Asian" side being 27% white British and 40% Asian that had Bengali street signage
I then contrasted with a ward on the other side that was 92% White British and 2% Asian that has only English street signage
Tim has just come as close to giving an apology as he ever has after you posted this
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
yes, get in your car and drive through Sparkbrook, you'll soon get the idea.
I used to live there. We were the only white people on our street. That really was segregated. Students and Pakistanis - the only people poor enough to have to live there.
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
Yes
I was talking about the whole of Tower Hamlets
Tim then described a ward on the "Asian" side being 27% white British and 40% Asian that had Bengali street signage
I then contrasted with a ward on the other side that was 92% White British and 2% Asian that has only English street signage
Tim has just come as close to giving an apology as he ever has after you posted this
But that is not complete segregaiton, is it? There are more white people living in the places that Tim firts linked to than Bangladeshis.
I actually agree with your central point: it is a disgrace that council debates were/are conducted in Bangladeshi. English should be the one and only language.
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
yes, get in your car and drive through Sparkbrook, you'll soon get the idea.
I used to live there. We were the only white people on our street. That really was segregated. Students and Pakistanis - the only people poor enough to have to live there.
It's not just a white asian thing. Ulster has something like 90% segregation these days. A census poll might say an area is mixed 50-50 but it will be one street full of Irish flags and republican murals and when you cross the road it's union jacks and marching. Neutral areas tend to be public amenities and town centres.
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
yes, get in your car and drive through Sparkbrook, you'll soon get the idea.
I used to live there. We were the only white people on our street. That really was segregated. Students and Pakistanis - the only people poor enough to have to live there.
It's not just a white asian thing. Ulster has something like 90% segregation these days. A census poll might say an area is mixed 50-50 but it will be one street full of Irish flags and republican murals and when you cross the road it's union jacks and marching. Neutral areas tend to be public amenities and town centres.
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
yes, get in your car and drive through Sparkbrook, you'll soon get the idea.
I used to live there. We were the only white people on our street. That really was segregated. Students and Pakistanis - the only people poor enough to have to live there.
It's not just a white asian thing. Ulster has something like 90% segregation these days. A census poll might say an area is mixed 50-50 but it will be one street full of Irish flags and republican murals and when you cross the road it's union jacks and marching. Neutral areas tend to be public amenities and town centres.
All very depressing.
well I suspect that it's slowly starting to reverse. 50 years ago there was nowhere near this level of segregation, but as the situation reverts to some form of normality I would think settlement patterns will change.
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
Yes
I was talking about the whole of Tower Hamlets
Tim then described a ward on the "Asian" side being 27% white British and 40% Asian that had Bengali street signage
I then contrasted with a ward on the other side that was 92% White British and 2% Asian that has only English street signage
Tim has just come as close to giving an apology as he ever has after you posted this
But that is not complete segregaiton, is it? There are more white people living in the places that Tim firts linked to than Bangladeshis.
I actually agree with your central point: it is a disgrace that council debates were/are conducted in Bangladeshi. English should be the one and only language.
Jesus
It was about white British and Bangladeshi
There are 79231 White British and 81377 Bangladeshis in the ward Tim linked to
I know we have different ways of looking at things but Im quite certain 81377 is more than 79231
In the ward I linked to there are 103848 White British and less than 2500 Asians of any type
So it would seem there is an imbalance in the make up of the Borough from one side to the other
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
Yes
I was talking about the whole of Tower Hamlets
Tim then described a ward on the "Asian" side being 27% white British and 40% Asian that had Bengali street signage
I then contrasted with a ward on the other side that was 92% White British and 2% Asian that has only English street signage
Tim has just come as close to giving an apology as he ever has after you posted this
But that is not complete segregaiton, is it? There are more white people living in the places that Tim firts linked to than Bangladeshis.
I actually agree with your central point: it is a disgrace that council debates were/are conducted in Bangladeshi. English should be the one and only language.
Jesus
It was about white British and Bangladeshi
There are 79231 White British and 81377 Bangladeshis in the ward Tim linked to
I know we have different ways of looking at things but Im quite certain 81377 is more than 79231
In the ward I linked to there are 103848 White British and less than 2500 Asians of any type
So it would seem there is an imbalance in the make up of the Borough from one side to the other
Feel free to think differently, we obviously do
Yes, 81,377 is very slightly more than 79,231. But effectively what we are talking about is a 50/50 split. We must have different definitions of segregation.
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
Yes
I was talking about the whole of Tower Hamlets
Tim then described a ward on the "Asian" side being 27% white British and 40% Asian that had Bengali street signage
I then contrasted with a ward on the other side that was 92% White British and 2% Asian that has only English street signage
Tim has just come as close to giving an apology as he ever has after you posted this
But that is not complete segregaiton, is it? There are more white people living in the places that Tim firts linked to than Bangladeshis.
I actually agree with your central point: it is a disgrace that council debates were/are conducted in Bangladeshi. English should be the one and only language.
Jesus
It was about white British and Bangladeshi
There are 79231 White British and 81377 Bangladeshis in the ward Tim linked to
I know we have different ways of looking at things but Im quite certain 81377 is more than 79231
In the ward I linked to there are 103848 White British and less than 2500 Asians of any type
So it would seem there is an imbalance in the make up of the Borough from one side to the other
Feel free to think differently, we obviously do
Yes, 81,377 is very slightly more than 79,231. But effectively what we are talking about is a 50/50 split. We must have different definitions of segregation.
Its a 50/50 split IN THAT WARD I didnt say that ward was segregated, I said the Borough was
In other wards in the more affluent part of the borough it is 99/1 split, that was my point
I am struggling to see how a part of Tower Hamlets that is 38% Bangladeshi, 27% White British and 18% Other White is "completely segregated and ghettoised". Can anyone help?
Yes
I was talking about the whole of Tower Hamlets
Tim then described a ward on the "Asian" side being 27% white British and 40% Asian that had Bengali street signage
I then contrasted with a ward on the other side that was 92% White British and 2% Asian that has only English street signage
Tim has just come as close to giving an apology as he ever has after you posted this
But that is not complete segregaiton, is it? There are more white people living in the places that Tim firts linked to than Bangladeshis.
I actually agree with your central point: it is a disgrace that council debates were/are conducted in Bangladeshi. English should be the one and only language.
Jesus
It was about white British and Bangladeshi
There are 79231 White British and 81377 Bangladeshis in the ward Tim linked to
I know we have different ways of looking at things but Im quite certain 81377 is more than 79231
In the ward I linked to there are 103848 White British and less than 2500 Asians of any type
So it would seem there is an imbalance in the make up of the Borough from one side to the other
Feel free to think differently, we obviously do
Yes, 81,377 is very slightly more than 79,231. But effectively what we are talking about is a 50/50 split. We must have different definitions of segregation.
Its a 50/50 split IN THAT WARD I didnt say that ward was segregated, I said the Borough was
In other wards in the more affluent part of the borough it is 99/1 split, that was my point
The poorest people live in the least affluent parts of Tower Hamlets shock. It was ever thus with immigrants. I guess we are talking at cross purposes.
Comments
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2324457/Drunk-Czech-president-Milos-Zeman-hardly-stand-ceremonial-occasion.html
Over tired and emotional politician, makes a change from badger watching and hiking in Appalachia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22470691
Its hardly suprising though. The Borough is completely segregated and ghettoised. It is roughly 50/50 white British/Asian in population, but the predominantly Bangladeshi Asians live on one side and the " white British" on the other. The street names in the Bangladesh side of the town are in English and Bengali, few white British people live there, why would anyone bother to speak English?
All this was predicted many many years ago
Anyway here is a link
http://www.banglastories.org/about-the-project/the-locations/tower-hamlets.html
No guts to do what they clearly want to do,
Alastair Campbell@campbellclaret16m
Mervyn King, message machine for Gideon to the end.
Tory Treasury@ToryTreasury2m
@campbellclaret what a disgraceful remark. He was appointed by Gordon Brown
@ToryTreasury oh God, are you related to @toryeducation ? May have been appointed by GB but couldn't wait to shove him out for Gormless Gid
Tory Treasury@ToryTreasury14s
@campbellclaret your willingness to make nasty slurs about a longstanding public servant is true to form
How many Bengalis live in your part of Liverpool, tim?
Yes they are.
There a few white Brits living there in comparison to the rest of the other side of the borough/London/the country.
Why do you think the street signs are in Bengali on one side of the Borough and not on the other?
I also said "predominantly Bangladeshi Asians" other Asans also live there... why did you leave out "predominantly"?
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?10802-Muslim-Integration
Will have a look...
Dont know why tim is biting here, I only pointed out that it isnt surprising that no one speaks English at the council in Tower Hamlets when even the street signs are in Bengali.
Somepeople think thats a good thing... up to them
The other side of the borough is the Docklands where rich city types live, it is one of the most lopsided boroughs in London.
Alastair Campbell@campbellclaret6m
@ToryTreasury high horse not best place for team of Chancellor quite as hopeless as this one. While you're here tho- how many targets met?
In a country where the white British population is almost 80%, and street signs are probably 99% in English, it is hardly a stretch to describe the white British population as "few" in a ward where it is 27% and the street signs are in Bengali is it?
I never said it was good or bad, but thats how it is... you provided the figures
Tory Treasury@ToryTreasury58s
@campbellclaret lol we're clearing up the historic mess left by your chancellor Gordon Brown
http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do?a=3&b=6506713&c=Tower+Hamlets&d=14&e=61&g=6437036&i=1001x1003x1032x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1368642081358&enc=1&dsFamilyId=2575
92% White British
2% Asian
Apology?
If Nadine Dorries wants to run as a UKIP/Tory candidate, she can just use the Tory Eastleigh leaflets. *helpful face*
http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do?a=3&b=6506713&c=Tower+Hamlets&d=14&e=61&g=6437036&i=1001x1003x1032x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1368642081358&enc=1&dsFamilyId=2575
92% White British
2% Asian
So when I said few, I was comparing 92% with 27%... I said white British Lived one side and Asians the other.. 92% and 27% compared with 2% and 40%
You were splitting hairs, you werent correcting me
How many Bengalis live in your part of Liverpool, tim?
You're sure you want to reveal your current location?
When did you last take a stroll down Brick Lane or Roman Road?
So 130 votes for EU referendum. With at least 10 Lab, that's a sizeable Tory 'rebellion' that isn't a rebellion. Whips didn't do well
I walked from Limehouse station to Aldgate East last Thursday though if that helps
*Sorry I thought it said sam not tim!
No rhetorical flourish nor balcony view can make staying in a hotel on the Algarve sound anything but utterly dull.
If you want to liven up your visit, dig up the 18th green of the Vale do Lobo Ocean golf course. If apprehended, claim you are hunting for Madeleine McCann.
You're more likely to get blood out of a stone than a retraction on anything from tim. I think you've done enough for everyone else on here to form their conclusions, so there's no point pushing any more.
A piece on C4 news about whistle blower gagging clauses in payoffs.
Why can they not be unilaterally annulled under a statuary instrument or whatever?
I am not a lawyer but it seems bizarre that Government is so powerless to act (assuming it actually wants to).
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Southall_station_signage.JPG
Has the O&L parasol arrived?
Actually I was quite surprised just how stark the difference in % from one side of Tower Hamlets to the other was
Thanks to @tim for the ONS links
Leave the EU (net in favour of leaving)
No 'college' degree: +19
'College' degree: -17
That survey also includes the usual fun stereotype question:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/05/13/chapter-1-dispirited-over-national-conditions/
at the bottom.
Rainham to Thurrock? Thats like walking from a place you dont want to be to a place you dont want to go with nothing to see in between!
Guess which group gets hit the most by mass immigration from Eastern Europe...
M. Hollande is doing all he can to make the UK look good and we're 3% from an Ed is crap thread. All I need now is Salmond to do something idiotic like campaign to stay in the EU while using sterling........ oh wait.
I was talking about the whole of Tower Hamlets
Tim then described a ward on the "Asian" side being 27% white British and 40% Asian that had Bengali street signage
I then contrasted with a ward on the other side that was 92% White British and 2% Asian that has only English street signage
Tim has just come as close to giving an apology as he ever has after you posted this
I actually agree with your central point: it is a disgrace that council debates were/are conducted in Bangladeshi. English should be the one and only language.
It was about white British and Bangladeshi
There are 79231 White British and 81377 Bangladeshis in the ward Tim linked to
I know we have different ways of looking at things but Im quite certain 81377 is more than 79231
In the ward I linked to there are 103848 White British and less than 2500 Asians of any type
So it would seem there is an imbalance in the make up of the Borough from one side to the other
Feel free to think differently, we obviously do
sorry that's just not good enough, I demand you link us to google street map and take us on a guided tour house by house. :-)
In other wards in the more affluent part of the borough it is 99/1 split, that was my point
I wonder if council debates in rural wales are conducted in Welsh...???
If so, should those be conducted in English too???