Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The other battle of Newark: Survation versus Lord Ashcroft

13

Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    RobD said:

    No mention of the by-election on the Beeb website front-page:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

    There is usually a token story on the politics section. Apart from that they keep coverage to a minimum.
    Perhaps you're right. Nothing on the SKY front page either:
    http://news.sky.com/
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2014

    Mr. Tokyo, to avoid being overlooked by the Americans we should hand sovereignty to Brussels?

    You're very far away.

    What use is sovereignty if the sovereign doesn't have any power? It's just a steering wheel on the front of a driverless train for kids to turn and pretend they're driving.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @ToryJim

    Before I open the link, It isn't to do with the "Future Conservatives" in Newark is it?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Jim, there are many weird people about.

    Mr. Tokyo, observe the difference between the UK and eurozone economies. If anyone lacks a steering wheel and is driving off a cliff, it's euroland.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Smarmeron said:

    @ToryJim

    Before I open the link, It isn't to do with the "Future Conservatives" in Newark is it?

    No, no, it isn't.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The idea of directly electing a president of the EU only works if you think that the component parts of the EU share a sufficient demos to enable those who have been outvoted to accept being led by the victor in the various component parts, and the remit of that president is similarly circumscribed.

    Neither of those propositions looks remotely convincing as of today's date.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:


    It's true, the americans want Britain in so they can have more control over the EU.
    However after the eurozone crisis the americans have shifted to dealing directly with the controller of the EU, Germany, bypassing Britain.
    Britain is no longer that usefull for the americans to control europe since Germany is controling it now not america.

    If the British government had any strategic sense they'd be hustling to get the EU leadership chosen by EU-wide elections so they could still have a voice proportional to their population.
    That would make the EU a democratic instrument with more authority that national governments, unacceptable by everyone from eurosceptics to parliaments to government leaders to have someone superior over their heads.
    I know it's unacceptable to them, that's because they either have no strategic sense or don't care about the national interest.
    Speedy said:


    Plus voters will still prefer candidates from their own nation so the Germans win because they are the largest single nationality in the EU.

    There's not much sign of that happening. Germans knew Schultz pretty well, but they didn't go massively PES. There may be a home-country advantage, but it's not very big, especially for big countries. (IIUC in US presidential there tends to be a reasonable home-state advantage for candidates from small states, but not much for big ones.)

    Even if it did, the population difference isn't very big - something like 80 million vs 64 million, so only a 16 million difference in an area with a total population of 500 million.
    I suspect because they are voting for German MEPs from any party. If it was an election of a single candidate, I would bet that a large majority of voters would vote for their country's candidate.
    I guess you'd have had a bigger home country advantage if it had been a direct presidential election with Martin Schulz on the ballot rather than a parliamentary election with a candidate slightly ambiguously cobbled on top, but a large majority? Nah. Floating voters might float, but conservatives aren't generally going to vote for a socialist, and vice versa.

    Maybe interesting to poll Conservatives and Kippers on this thread though.

    [ ] Angela Merkel
    [ ] Ed Miliband
    [ ] Ebola / Don't vote / spoil ballot paper
    I don't like the choice much but on a forced choice I would say Merkel. Ed is really not fit to run anything.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    In the entire history of PB this must surely be the first time we have ever heard of the concept of Lab supporters tactically voting Con.

    Astonishing!
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Mr antifrank I don't think there will ever be circumstances where the EU will constitute a single Demos
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376

    The Tories have a humungous majority and Tories are much more prone to defect to UKIP than they are to Labour. For Labour to win requires them to pick up all kinds of voters from... somewhere,

    Well, they could have started with squeezing the 20% LibDems, adding that to their own 22%, and persuading some former Conservative voters to switch to them, whilst leaving some disgruntled Tories to switch to UKIP. On paper such a strategy looks enough to at least be competitive, if not actually to win, in a by-election.
    It's what Tony and Mandy/Campbell would have done...

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    I'll have any amount of money with anyone at any odds you like that Marcio is last in the Newark predictions with www.electiongame.com
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    MikeL said:

    In the entire history of PB this must surely be the first time we have ever heard of the concept of Lab supporters tactically voting Con.

    Astonishing!

    Didn't the Mirror advocate voting Conservative a few years ago?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    Pulpstar said:

    I'll have any amount of money with anyone at any odds you like that Marcio is last in the Newark predictions with www.electiongame.com

    LD winning by 17,000? Yeah I saw that I thought that was John Loony's entry :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Jim, I agree entirely. The nations are too different. Mindless moves towards ever closer union ignore reality, even when the evidence (sovereign debt crisis) is staring the federalist airheads in the face.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,561

    Mr. Palmer, very witty. I certainly wouldn't vote for a man who promised a referendum on Lisbon and then reneged upon it shamelessly.

    Ah, you'd be one of those Brits for Merkel people, eh?

    See, we've only been talking about it for a few minutes, and you're weighing up the choice and voting foreign...

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Is there any info coming from on the ground in Newark - apart from CON MPs desperately trying to get their pics on Twitter showing they are helping with the effort?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    I'll have any amount of money with anyone at any odds you like that Marcio is last in the Newark predictions with www.electiongame.com

    That is awesome.

    Considering the bookies' odds, there are a surprising number predicting a UKIP win.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    antifrank said:

    The idea of directly electing a president of the EU only works if you think that the component parts of the EU share a sufficient demos to enable those who have been outvoted to accept being led by the victor in the various component parts, and the remit of that president is similarly circumscribed.

    Neither of those propositions looks remotely convincing as of today's date.

    Better than being de-facto led by the victor in one of the other component parts where you never get a vote, no? But in any case if you follow the argument about the EU president the national demos thing people here have been worrying about doesn't seem to be the issue. Nobody's bothered that the winner is from Luxembourg, the Germans will probably veto a German deputy, the French are threatening to veto a French woman, and the British end-game is probably to get them to pick a Finn.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited June 2014
    I'm doing a Yougov Voter Intention Survey right now.

    I can confirm there is no UKIP in the list of primary options.

    It also has Ant & Dec on the list of Greatest living English Person.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Apologies if this has been linked to already but a rather funny Matt today: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/

    It is interesting how more and more Mrs May is coming across as someone not to cross. The next iron lady?
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    Mr. Jim, I agree entirely. The nations are too different. Mindless moves towards ever closer union ignore reality, even when the evidence (sovereign debt crisis) is staring the federalist airheads in the face.

    Indeed Mr Dancer
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited June 2014

    Is there any info coming from on the ground in Newark - apart from CON MPs desperately trying to get their pics on Twitter showing they are helping with the effort?

    Apparently some unfortunate people had Michael Green cold calling at 5:30am this morning....



  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    The idea of directly electing a president of the EU only works if you think that the component parts of the EU share a sufficient demos to enable those who have been outvoted to accept being led by the victor in the various component parts, and the remit of that president is similarly circumscribed.

    Neither of those propositions looks remotely convincing as of today's date.

    Better than being de-facto led by the victor in one of the other component parts where you never get a vote, no? But in any case if you follow the argument about the EU president the national demos thing people here have been worrying about doesn't seem to be the issue. Nobody's bothered that the winner is from Luxembourg, the Germans will probably veto a German deputy, the French are threatening to veto a French woman, and the British end-game is probably to get them to pick a Finn.
    Do you really think that the Commission President has any real authority when it comes down to it? He - and it's always he - gets as much as the national leaders are collectively prepared to lend him. That's why Jean-Claude Juncker would be well-advised to give way gracefully now, unless he's happy to put up with the humiliations ahead of him as a lame duck in return for a hefty salary.

    Imagine a Commission President who has won an EU-wide vote (good question, what voting system would be used? One for TSE, I think). If a highly federalist president is appointed, how the hell is he or she going to command respect in a Britain that is completely out of sympathy with that? Or a president with a free market agenda in a France that adores national champions and the CAP? It's just not yet workable.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    GIN1138 said:

    Is there any info coming from on the ground in Newark - apart from CON MPs desperately trying to get their pics on Twitter showing they are helping with the effort?

    Some unfortunate people had Michael Green cold calling at 5:30pm this morning....



    Erm, 5:30pm is not a morning time.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. L, not so sure.

    May's comments, on the Queen's Speech day and one day before a by-election, breaking the hitherto rather (weirdly) united Conservative ranks for infighting, does not strike me as terribly clever and seems far more about her trying to position herself as a future leadership contender rather than anything else.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779

    antifrank said:

    The idea of directly electing a president of the EU only works if you think that the component parts of the EU share a sufficient demos to enable those who have been outvoted to accept being led by the victor in the various component parts, and the remit of that president is similarly circumscribed.

    Neither of those propositions looks remotely convincing as of today's date.

    Better than being de-facto led by the victor in one of the other component parts where you never get a vote, no? But in any case if you follow the argument about the EU president the national demos thing people here have been worrying about doesn't seem to be the issue. Nobody's bothered that the winner is from Luxembourg, the Germans will probably veto a German deputy, the French are threatening to veto a French woman, and the British end-game is probably to get them to pick a Finn.
    Jeez... It's like the Eurovision song contest for politics. Every year the UK would treat it with distain, moan about it, and think about pulling out after we keep paying for it.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    edited June 2014
    ToryJim said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Is there any info coming from on the ground in Newark - apart from CON MPs desperately trying to get their pics on Twitter showing they are helping with the effort?

    Some unfortunate people had Michael Green cold calling at 5:30am this morning....



    Erm, 5:30pm is not a morning time.
    Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited June 2014

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    These are not the droids you're looking for!!!!

    That's the correct reference Gin.

    Okay people,

    I'm going to search twitter - wish me luck.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    But they can't be EU citizens outside the UK/Republic, which would rule out Merkel :)
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Okay!

    I'm back!

    That was scary.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    JBriskin said:


    I'm going to search twitter - wish me luck.

    Surely, 'Smoke me a Kipper, I'll be back for breakfast' is more appropriate?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    What a curious state of affairs. A prospective MP could be debarred by their own country leaving the Commonwealth.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    edited June 2014
    JBriskin said:

    Okay!

    I'm back!

    That was scary.

    The Force EU can have a strong influence on the weak-minded!
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    But they can't be EU citizens outside the UK/Republic, which would rule out Merkel :)
    Of course Gisela Stuart was born in Bavaria but must have taken UK citizenship
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    Mr. L, not so sure.

    May's comments, on the Queen's Speech day and one day before a by-election, breaking the hitherto rather (weirdly) united Conservative ranks for infighting, does not strike me as terribly clever and seems far more about her trying to position herself as a future leadership contender rather than anything else.

    Oh I agree but the next time a cabinet minister, even one as favoured as Gove, has it mind to criticise some element of Home Office policy I think they will pause and reflect. As are the Police Federation.

    For an office that is frequently the destroyer of tory PM ambitions that is quite impressive even if the timing was, well, odd. If the tories lose she is nailed on as next leader. If they win she still holds a poison chalice which just might blow up in her face at some point so it is less predictable.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    But they can't be EU citizens outside the UK/Republic, which would rule out Merkel :)
    France did ask to join the Commonwealth in 1957, Malta and Cyprus are both members of the EU and the Commonwealth and admitting all the members of the EU to the Commonwealth might be one way around Morris Dancer's disdain for "foreigners" governing Britain.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    antifrank said:


    Imagine a Commission President who has won an EU-wide vote (good question, what voting system would be used? One for TSE, I think). If a highly federalist president is appointed, how the hell is he or she going to command respect in a Britain that is completely out of sympathy with that? Or a president with a free market agenda in a France that adores national champions and the CAP? It's just not yet workable.

    Since when have the people leading Britain commanded respect? Bear in mind that the people recently occupying this office are David Cameron, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and John Major, and the next one may well be Ed Miliband.

    Thatcher wanted to close down the coal mines. Half the country hated her. A leader with a free market agenda would infuriate French farmers and they'd blockade things with tractors, while of a minority of French voters would support him or her over them. This is how democracy works.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Salmond vows to waste even more public money on Edinburgh trams;

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27714679
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    antifrank said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    What a curious state of affairs. A prospective MP could be debarred by their own country leaving the Commonwealth.
    One of the things I most like about the UK is the multitude of bizarre little quirks that we have, of which this is but one.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    The idea of directly electing a president of the EU only works if you think that the component parts of the EU share a sufficient demos to enable those who have been outvoted to accept being led by the victor in the various component parts, and the remit of that president is similarly circumscribed.

    Neither of those propositions looks remotely convincing as of today's date.

    Better than being de-facto led by the victor in one of the other component parts where you never get a vote, no? But in any case if you follow the argument about the EU president the national demos thing people here have been worrying about doesn't seem to be the issue. Nobody's bothered that the winner is from Luxembourg, the Germans will probably veto a German deputy, the French are threatening to veto a French woman, and the British end-game is probably to get them to pick a Finn.
    Jeez... It's like the Eurovision song contest for politics. Every year the UK would treat it with distain, moan about it, and think about pulling out after we keep paying for it.
    The analogy is good. The Germans would consistently underperform, the Greek entry would be scarily bad and we'd end up with some cheesy novelty act from Scandinavia or eastern Europe.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.

    Julia Gillard is the only ever Welsh born PM (PM of Australia).
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    @Mr Dancer, are you referring to the situation where a promise was made for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty before it was ratified and before an expected general election? And where there was no imminent general election because the PM of the day got frit but who did surreptitiously signed it into law out of the public eye? And when the person who made the promise would not have had the votes in parliament to call a referendum? And where even if a referendum was held and the answer was "no" the Treaty could not be abrogated without a majority in parliament?
    Some people live in cloud cuckoo land and think things can be don with the stroke of a pen or some purposely distort the fact to fit their prejudices.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    ToryJim said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    But they can't be EU citizens outside the UK/Republic, which would rule out Merkel :)
    Of course Gisela Stuart was born in Bavaria but must have taken UK citizenship
    Lucky for us. Undoubtedly one of the most impressive Labour MPs. I would be looking very carefully at the quality of the tory candidate if I lived in her constituency. I suspect she must have got a fair few blue supporters the last time to hang on.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2014
    antifrank said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    What a curious state of affairs. A prospective MP could be debarred by their own country leaving the Commonwealth.
    Wow, and any rich person in the world could make themselves eligible to become a British MP by saving up their bitcoins and buying a passport from St Kitts.
    http://passportsforbitcoin.com/st-kitts-program/
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Mr Corporeal, Gillard is proof that a boring red headed Welsh leftie can become PM
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:


    Imagine a Commission President who has won an EU-wide vote (good question, what voting system would be used? One for TSE, I think). If a highly federalist president is appointed, how the hell is he or she going to command respect in a Britain that is completely out of sympathy with that? Or a president with a free market agenda in a France that adores national champions and the CAP? It's just not yet workable.

    Since when have the people leading Britain commanded respect? Bear in mind that the people recently occupying this office are David Cameron, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and John Major, and the next one may well be Ed Miliband.

    Thatcher wanted to close down the coal mines. Half the country hated her. A leader with a free market agenda would infuriate French farmers and they'd blockade things with tractors, while of a minority of French voters would support him or her over them. This is how democracy works.
    Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, including all those you named, command sufficient respect for the populace of the United Kingdom to accept that they speak for them, even if they dislike them or indeed actively oppose them with every fibre of their being. The concept of a loyal Opposition is a useful one.

    An elected European Commission President would have no such loyalty in the opposition that they faced.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    edited June 2014

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    But they can't be EU citizens outside the UK/Republic, which would rule out Merkel :)
    France did ask to join the Commonwealth in 1957, Malta and Cyprus are both members of the EU and the Commonwealth and admitting all the members of the EU to the Commonwealth might be one way around Morris Dancer's disdain for "foreigners" governing Britain.
    Sorry, forgot about Malta/Cyprus!

    Well, I suppose English is an official language of the EU...
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    DavidL said:

    ToryJim said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    But they can't be EU citizens outside the UK/Republic, which would rule out Merkel :)
    Of course Gisela Stuart was born in Bavaria but must have taken UK citizenship
    Lucky for us. Undoubtedly one of the most impressive Labour MPs. I would be looking very carefully at the quality of the tory candidate if I lived in her constituency. I suspect she must have got a fair few blue supporters the last time to hang on.

    Oh absolutely, I quite like her myself. Plus Edgbaston must be unique in being represented by a lady for more than 60 years.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    antifrank said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    What a curious state of affairs. A prospective MP could be debarred by their own country leaving the Commonwealth.
    Wow, and any rich person in the world could make themselves eligible to become a British MP by saving up their bitcoins and buying a passport from St Kitts.
    http://passportsforbitcoin.com/st-kitts-program/
    Anyone who can afford £500 in this country can make themselves eligible to become an MP.

  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782
    edited June 2014
    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.

    Julia Gillard is the only ever Welsh born PM (PM of Australia).
    Surely LLoyd-George was born in Wales?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    antifrank said:


    Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, including all those you named, command sufficient respect for the populace of the United Kingdom to accept that they speak for them, even if they dislike them or indeed actively oppose them with every fibre of their being.

    I wonder how "Does Margaret Thatcher speak for you?" would have polled in mining communities.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:


    Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, including all those you named, command sufficient respect for the populace of the United Kingdom to accept that they speak for them, even if they dislike them or indeed actively oppose them with every fibre of their being.

    I wonder how "Does Margaret Thatcher speak for you?" would have polled in mining communities.
    That was the closest that the demos came to breaking. You will note that the miners' strike failed.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited June 2014
    Lennon said:

    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.

    Julia Gillard is the only ever Welsh born PM (PM of Australia).
    Surely LLoyd-George was born in Wales?
    David Lloyd George was born in Manchester in 1863, but that didn't make him a Mancunian.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/history/past-prime-ministers/david-lloyd-george

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    antifrank said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    What a curious state of affairs. A prospective MP could be debarred by their own country leaving the Commonwealth.
    Wow, and any rich person in the world could make themselves eligible to become a British MP by saving up their bitcoins and buying a passport from St Kitts.
    http://passportsforbitcoin.com/st-kitts-program/
    So when Obama reaches his term limit in the US he could move on to a second political career in the UK simply by buying some real estate in the Caribbean?

    Move over Chuka Umunna - we're going to get ourselves the real deal!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    Q. Which Commonwealth countries do NOT have English as an official working language?
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2014
    Lennon said:

    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.

    Julia Gillard is the only ever Welsh born PM (PM of Australia).
    Surely LLoyd-George was born in Wales?
    As was James Callaghan.

    Edit
    I'm wrong.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    Q. Which Commonwealth countries do NOT have English as an official working language?

    Is that Mozambique, the country which was never part of the Empire in the first place (IIRC)?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    Lennon said:

    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.

    Julia Gillard is the only ever Welsh born PM (PM of Australia).
    Surely LLoyd-George was born in Wales?
    As was James Callaghan.

    No ,Portsmouth :)
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited June 2014

    Lennon said:

    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.

    Julia Gillard is the only ever Welsh born PM (PM of Australia).
    Surely LLoyd-George was born in Wales?
    As was James Callaghan.

    Nope. Callaghan was born in Portsmouth. He did for a welsh seat for many years and lived on a farm near Lewes in East Sussex.

    Edit: Nobody thought it odd in those days that a Welsh MP lived in Sussex. Mind you nobody ever seemed to wonder how he ever acquired the cash to buy such an enormous chunk of prime land in the first place. Denis "squeeze the rich" Healey when he was Chancellor had a farm not far up the road from Callaghan's.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    RobD said:

    Q. Which Commonwealth countries do NOT have English as an official working language?

    Is that Mozambique, the country which was never part of the Empire in the first place (IIRC)?
    That's one, but there's a few more!

    (Rwanda was Belgian territory, but they recently started using English officially)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Q. Which Commonwealth countries do NOT have English as an official working language?

    Mozambique for starters.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,561
    All five main political groupings in the European Parliament (EPP, S&D, ALDE, Green, Left) have now urged that Juncker be nominated.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2014
    BTW I think we may have finally stumbled on a workable definition of "demos". If the majority of voters would vote for someone with their own general political leanings but from another region over someone with different political leanings from their own region, you have one. If they wouldn't, you don't. Ignoring the consequences for the EU for a minute, does that catch what people are trying to say?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    antifrank said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    What a curious state of affairs. A prospective MP could be debarred by their own country leaving the Commonwealth.
    Wow, and any rich person in the world could make themselves eligible to become a British MP by saving up their bitcoins and buying a passport from St Kitts.
    http://passportsforbitcoin.com/st-kitts-program/
    So when Obama reaches his term limit in the US he could move on to a second political career in the UK simply by buying some real estate in the Caribbean?

    Move over Chuka Umunna - we're going to get ourselves the real deal!
    Yup, then he could become President of the EU...
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    All five main political groupings in the European Parliament (EPP, S&D, ALDE, Green, Left) have now urged that Juncker be nominated.

    European Parliament pushes for stitch up that entrenches power in the European Parliament is not a great surprise though. Hopefully the Governments will ignore them.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    All five main political groupings in the European Parliament (EPP, S&D, ALDE, Green, Left) have now urged that Juncker be nominated.

    So does that mean he wont be?!
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited June 2014
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    If we do see tactical voting for the Conservatives against UKIP today, that could be hugely important in quite a few constituencies. It's possibly the single most important thing to look out for tonight.

    How will you know who voted for the Conservatives, and who voted for UKIP?

    We won't know for definite, but if the Conservative tally holds up surprisingly well and the Labour/Lib Dem share falls surprisingly far, we can draw inferences. I suppose the Conservative share is the primary indicator.
    A dangerous game which could bite all the major parties on the arse.

    If UKIP are perceived as electable under FPTP, rather than just a protest, then they could make gains against Labour and the LibDems too. (Disaffected "blue collar" Labour + BNP + Tory + Non-Specific Protest voting fot UKIP in a Labour constituency could cause more than one upset)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    The idea of directly electing a president of the EU only works if you think that the component parts of the EU share a sufficient demos to enable those who have been outvoted to accept being led by the victor in the various component parts, and the remit of that president is similarly circumscribed.

    Neither of those propositions looks remotely convincing as of today's date.

    Better than being de-facto led by the victor in one of the other component parts where you never get a vote, no? But in any case if you follow the argument about the EU president the national demos thing people here have been worrying about doesn't seem to be the issue. Nobody's bothered that the winner is from Luxembourg, the Germans will probably veto a German deputy, the French are threatening to veto a French woman, and the British end-game is probably to get them to pick a Finn.
    Do you really think that the Commission President has any real authority when it comes down to it? He - and it's always he - gets as much as the national leaders are collectively prepared to lend him. That's why Jean-Claude Juncker would be well-advised to give way gracefully now, unless he's happy to put up with the humiliations ahead of him as a lame duck in return for a hefty salary.

    Imagine a Commission President who has won an EU-wide vote (good question, what voting system would be used? One for TSE, I think). If a highly federalist president is appointed, how the hell is he or she going to command respect in a Britain that is completely out of sympathy with that? Or a president with a free market agenda in a France that adores national champions and the CAP? It's just not yet workable.
    Two stage election.

    First election, need one nomination from a Prime Minister or President to be able to stand.

    Europe wide vote.

    Top two vote winners, go into the next stage. If anyone gets over 50% then that person wins, then no second stage.

    Second stage, conducted under first past the post.The Winner Takes It All.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "That was the closest that the demos came to breaking."

    Only in Labour mythology.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    All five main political groupings in the European Parliament (EPP, S&D, ALDE, Green, Left) have now urged that Juncker be nominated.

    Amazing how they're trying to corrupt the definition of "take account of" into "do what we say"
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited June 2014
    Even negative articles about my very long long-standing bet on Yvette are coming out today, truly this is a diem horribilem at scrap towers....

    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2014/06/05/new-analysis-of-post-election-plp-erodes-yvettes-leadership-front-runner-status/#more-18364
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    BTW I think we may have finally stumbled on a workable definition of "demos". If the majority of voters would vote for someone with their own general political leanings but from another region over someone with the same general political leanings from their own region, you have one. If they wouldn't, you don't. Ignoring the consequences for the EU for a minute, does that catch what people are trying to say?

    It doesn't capture what I'm trying to say.

    My definition of a demos would be an acceptance by most of those voting for the losing candidate that the winning candidate had a mandate to speak for them on the matters for which they were elected.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    dr_spyn said:

    Lennon said:

    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.

    Julia Gillard is the only ever Welsh born PM (PM of Australia).
    Surely LLoyd-George was born in Wales?
    David Lloyd George was born in Manchester in 1863, but that didn't make him a Mancunian.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/history/past-prime-ministers/david-lloyd-george

    Only PM to have English as his second language.

    (It's knowing these kinds of facts that make me cool).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334

    Carnyx said:


    Just checking please - you do mean the haemorrhagic virus?

    Yeah - I thought I should provide a third choice for people who didn't like either of the first two. (The idea of putting it on the ballot comes from Nate Silver talking about political pundits, who said that if he had a choice between pundits and ebola, he'd vote either ebola or third-party.)
    Thanks - what one learns here!

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited June 2014
    dr_spyn said:

    Lennon said:

    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.

    Julia Gillard is the only ever Welsh born PM (PM of Australia).
    Surely LLoyd-George was born in Wales?
    David Lloyd George was born in Manchester in 1863, but that didn't make him a Mancunian.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/history/past-prime-ministers/david-lloyd-george
    Wikipedia says he spoke English as a second language...

    [Obviously using wikipedia as a source makes me slow and uncool...]
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,525
    DavidL said:

    ToryJim said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.


    But they can't be EU citizens outside the UK/Republic, which would rule out Merkel :)
    Of course Gisela Stuart was born in Bavaria but must have taken UK citizenship
    Lucky for us. Undoubtedly one of the most impressive Labour MPs. I would be looking very carefully at the quality of the tory candidate if I lived in her constituency. I suspect she must have got a fair few blue supporters the last time to hang on.

    She certainly does. The Conservatives regularly come first in local elections in the seat.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    OT, but worth watching ...

    Word has it that Frank Dobson is about to announce that he will not fight Holborn and St Pancras for Labour at the next general election. Given where the seat is located and how safe it is expect a scramble to succeed him. The person chosen will be EdM's MP, as well as SeanT's and my Mum's. There'll be a lot of big names looking to get the nod, but keep a look out for Patrick French. Born and bred in the constituency, he still lives there and is a hospital consultant (specialising in STDs!). He probably won't get it because he lacks any in-depth political experience outside of working extremely hard as a volunteer for the local party, but he would be an excellent choice and may appeal to the anti-establishment vote. Obviously, if it's an all-woman list he's buggered!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Observer, sounds like Dr. French deserves a shot. Hope his aspirations won't be crushed by the ovarian tyranny of the sisterhood.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    One thing's for sure, no one is going to rush to say that they've met Patrick French professionally.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    antifrank said:

    One thing's for sure, no one is going to rush to say that they've met Patrick French professionally.

    I hate Doctors and Nurses that specialise in STDs.

    You get the same disease a few times and they act like its my fault.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    antifrank said:

    BTW I think we may have finally stumbled on a workable definition of "demos". If the majority of voters would vote for someone with their own general political leanings but from another region over someone with the same general political leanings from their own region, you have one. If they wouldn't, you don't. Ignoring the consequences for the EU for a minute, does that catch what people are trying to say?

    It doesn't capture what I'm trying to say.

    My definition of a demos would be an acceptance by most of those voting for the losing candidate that the winning candidate had a mandate to speak for them on the matters for which they were elected.
    I'm not sure the US had that, especially at the height of the Tea Party crazy.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Also way O/T from the Telegraph this afternoon:

    "The leader of the House of Commons has said he would accept the job of becoming Britain's next European Commissioner.

    Andrew Lansley, the former health secretary, indicated that he has already been asked by the Prime Minister to take up the role as he burnished his Eurosceptic credentials.

    Asked whether he will serve as commissioner by Andrew Neil on BBC Two's Daily Politics, he replied: "If the prime minister asks me, I want to say yes.""

    Did anyone get any money on him?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Eagles, well, syphilis is very slimming.

    Impiety has made a feast of thee, you know.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.
    Shelburne and Wellington were both born in Ireland, before the UK came into existence...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited June 2014

    Also way O/T from the Telegraph this afternoon:

    "The leader of the House of Commons has said he would accept the job of becoming Britain's next European Commissioner.

    Andrew Lansley, the former health secretary, indicated that he has already been asked by the Prime Minister to take up the role as he burnished his Eurosceptic credentials.

    Asked whether he will serve as commissioner by Andrew Neil on BBC Two's Daily Politics, he replied: "If the prime minister asks me, I want to say yes.""

    Did anyone get any money on him?

    Mike did. 16/1.

    So did I, but I didn't put too much on.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,549
    I once had a work colleague who was Australian, interested in politics and voted here in the UK under the commonwealth citizenship rules. He was only able to work in the UK because his wife, who was German, was working in the UK under EU freedom on movement rules. She did not have a vote in the UK general election, but he did.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    BTW I think we may have finally stumbled on a workable definition of "demos". If the majority of voters would vote for someone with their own general political leanings but from another region over someone with the same general political leanings from their own region, you have one. If they wouldn't, you don't. Ignoring the consequences for the EU for a minute, does that catch what people are trying to say?

    It doesn't capture what I'm trying to say.

    My definition of a demos would be an acceptance by most of those voting for the losing candidate that the winning candidate had a mandate to speak for them on the matters for which they were elected.
    I'm not sure the US had that, especially at the height of the Tea Party crazy.
    The word "most" was included to cater for a minority of nutters. And it is possible for a demos to disintegrate. A number of our north British posters would assert that strongly.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    edited June 2014
    antifrank said:

    Q. Which Commonwealth countries do NOT have English as an official working language?

    Mozambique for starters.

    The others are Cyprus, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Maldives and Brunei.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    RodCrosby said:

    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.
    Shelburne and Wellington were both born in Ireland, before the UK came into existence...
    I see your pedantry, and raise you that neither of those was PM.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334

    Salmond vows to waste even more public money on Edinburgh trams;

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27714679

    I thought you meant he was going to extend the network to something more useful now we have the core up and running, and the council know what mistakes not to make (the money squandered by the Unionist parties has been lost, but we may as well use what we have).

    Instead I find you complaining about a public inquiry into why that squandering happened!!

    As they used to say at school, cmpare and contrast ...

    Mr Salmond has friends round to tea (Mr and Mrs Weir, SNP party members) - Labour waste public money on an inquiry which only ends up proving that Mr S paid for his own teabags and bikkies. [for Southron PBers, this is not a joke - it did happen].

    Labour and LD MSPs, with Tory connivance, hand a huge wodge of cash to a Labour-LD Edinburgh Council who misspend it with the most unbelievable incmpetence on the trams, and in so doing wreck the national budget for road and tramsport improvements elsewhere - including the A9. I can't imagine why you would want to sweep it under the carpet.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    corporeal said:

    RodCrosby said:

    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.
    Shelburne and Wellington were both born in Ireland, before the UK came into existence...
    I see your pedantry, and raise you that neither of those was PM.
    But surely Wellington was a PM (and under his peerage title), unless you mean tthat the title Prime Minister was not formally used then?

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958

    Mr. Eagles, well, syphilis is very slimming.

    Impiety has made a feast of thee, you know.

    Some shameless cad once used this chat up line

    "You need a stud in your life, I've got the STD all I need is u."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Eagles, one can only hope the oaf failed in his amorous ambitions.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112
    edited June 2014
    Carnyx said:

    corporeal said:

    RodCrosby said:

    corporeal said:

    No, Mr. Palmer. I said I wouldn't vote for Brown.

    Merkel would be far more competent, but the principle of a foreigner governing Britain is unacceptable.

    From the UK Parliament website:

    "People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, be a British citizen or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland"

    This is not the US you know. The PM could already be a "foreigner", and indeed the leader of the Green Party was born in Australia.
    Iirc Andrew Bonar-Law is the only PM not born in the UK.
    Shelburne and Wellington were both born in Ireland, before the UK came into existence...
    I see your pedantry, and raise you that neither of those was PM.
    But surely Wellington was a PM (and under his peerage title), unless you mean tthat the title Prime Minister was not formally used then?

    Walpole, 1721?
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    Mr. Eagles, well, syphilis is very slimming.

    Impiety has made a feast of thee, you know.

    Some shameless cad once used this chat up line

    "You need a stud in your life, I've got the STD all I need is u."
    Oh good grief
This discussion has been closed.