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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour makes heavy weather when it comes to leader ratings

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited May 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour makes heavy weather when it comes to leader ratings but key policy moves are polling well

By 50-22 the sample thought Cameron is the most intellectually confident while 56% said he wasn’t up to being PM. Nearly a third of 2010 LAB voters took this view.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    So it's as high as 23% ?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457
    All four proposals have difficulties, but seem like no-brainers at first. Only when you put thought into them do the manifest difficulties become obvious.

    Of them, the fourth is the least problematic, in my eyes at least. But it would mean moving away from council tax as a tax to pay for services, to a punitive one for 'social good'.

    The definition of 'empty house' would also be interesting: for instance would an empty house awaiting planning permission for renovations count? And if so, it is in the council's interest to delay planning permission for as long as possible ...
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Is it better for a leader to be perceived as ‘cruel ‘. . . or ‘thick, wet and sexless’ by the voters?

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2625361/Voters-say-David-Cameron-cruel-Ed-Miliband-wet-sexless.html#ixzz31QQ0yzN7
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,031
    Wonder how many would support being given free money?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    If anyone has a bet365 acc there are three great bets in the Real Mdrid 6pm ko

    Morata to scre first 13/2ew
    Morata t score 2 or more at 10/1
    Morata to score a Hat Trick at 50s

    Ronaldo, Bale & Benzema not playing
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,878
    Good points but of course 2010 LDs like these policies are they are to the left of the average Labour voter let alone the average voter. The 'most precious' voters of all are actually the 2010 LDs who have gone to the Tories and the 2010 Tories who have gone to UKIP, if Cameron gets both those groups voting Tory in 2015 he will lead the largest party regardless of what the 2010 'Red Liberals' do!
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    While 2010 LDs continue to split 80%-10% on Miliband as "Best PM" then you are probably wrong. Just think of it as being like Watford at GE2010 when you dared to challenge my judgement.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    RobD said:

    Wonder how many would support being given free money?

    Like ZIRP and QE.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited May 2014
    I agree Ed is crap... but then again so was Gordon both as a Chancellor simulating prudence and especially as PM, so who knows we could see Gordon replaced as the worst PM in living memory too if Ed's dog whistle-blowing works enough.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2014
    People will always support the concept of a free lunch, even if it breaks the bank.
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    edited May 2014
    Apols if posted before, one humdinger of a dodgy bar chart

    twitter.com/IanAustinMP/status/465509676877373440/photo/1
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    FPT

    Report on Lab soft-pedalling in Newark: true or desperate spin because their vote has vapourized?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    If you think those bar charts are good, wait until Miliband unveils his policies of "Getting more pay for doing the same job" or "All bank holidays to have sunny weather".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,878
    For the benefit of Charles previous thread, far from being 'complacent Labour' I was at one time chairman of Warwick Uni Tories in my student days, at the moment I switch between Tory and Liberal and will probably support the LDs in the locals, the Tories in the Euros
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    @Charles re Negotiation

    What you forget totally or have decided to ignore totally in your lecture on negotiation is that Cameron is having two negotiations about the EU

    One is with people who are not currently voting for him for whom the eu is an issue but may be persuaded by the things he can renegotiate, the other is with the EU itself.

    It is no point focussing on the second negotiation until you have succeeded with the first and to do that he is going to have to tell those voters what he considers are the key items to renegotiate else they are not going to waste a vote on him.

    In my opinion this is what Cameron has in mind for the 2017 referendum should he be reelected

    "Oh I havent finished negotiations yet but as I promised we will have one then we will hold one. The question will be Leave the EU or stay in if I am satisfied that we have renegotiated a good deal. "

    Of course at this point he won't still actually tell us what he considers a good deal, what he is actually wanting to renegotiate or what the red lines are that would actually make him decide he hasn't secured a good deal.

    The man is a charlatan if we do not trust him he only has himself to blame he has failed on almost all of his 2010 manifesto promises and where he has succeeded to any degree those successes have be minor
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,031
    edited May 2014

    Apols if posted before, one humdinger of a dodgy bar chart

    twitter.com/IanAustinMP/status/465509676877373440/photo/1

    I literally LOLed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Pagan, disagree. If Cameron tries that the backbenchers will axe him immediately.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    While 2010 LDs continue to split 80%-10% on Miliband as "Best PM" then you are probably wrong.
    2010 Lib Dems

    Net 'well':
    Cameron: -24
    miliband: -27

    Miliband (net)
    Made clear what he stands for: -34
    Been a strong leader: -31
    Up to job of Prime Minister: -27

    They also think by +27 that Miliband Sr would be a better leader than Miliband Jr......

    But apart from that, they're HUGE fans......

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Apols if posted before, one humdinger of a dodgy bar chart

    Truly Heroic!

    Who says the Tories have not learned from the Lib Dems?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,878
    RobD/Hertsmere Well if the LDs can do it why can't the Tories, it may be shamelessly opportunistic, but it does work
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited May 2014
    HYUFD said:

    Warwick Uni Tories in my student days

    Oh god! White Tile! < / Joke >

    Please tell me you studied PPE......

  • NextNext Posts: 826

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    You mean the Cameron who had the guts to give his speech without notes in 2005 to electrify his leadership campaign.

    Compared to the Miliband who stabbed his own brother in the back to win his?

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,167
    YouGov should be asked the same question for a few potential Conservative policies for next year's manifesto: "Reducing the rate of income tax for the highest earners", "increasing the rate of VAT (again)" or "Gerrymandering the constituencies ahead of the 2020 election"
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited May 2014

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    What's there to debate ?

    If Miliband had superior intellectual self-confidence, he'd have published his policies for the UK and be beating Cameron round the head with them.

    Instead we have the great policy Omerta. He says nothing. He has no ideas. He has no corner to argue. The man is a vacuum looking to be filled.

    Rather than take his arguments to Cameron, it's quite clear he has none. He's made a fool of himself with his so called superior intellect and Cameron's hardly an ideologue.

  • HYUFD said:

    RobD/Hertsmere Well if the LDs can do it why can't the Tories, it may be shamelessly opportunistic, but it does work

    The Conservatives negate the right to complain when the others do it.
    I tend to view it as the equivalent of diving in football

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Next said:

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    You mean the Cameron who had the guts to give his speech without notes in 2005 to electrify his leadership campaign.

    Compared to the Miliband who stabbed his own brother in the back to win his?

    These references to Miliband stabbing his brother in the back drive me crazy.

    David Miliband had his chance to run for the leadership in 2007 and ducked it - thus proving that he didn't have what it takes. He could have made bids in 2008 and 2008 but no - like Brown before him he wanted it gift wrapped on a plate. Pathetic.

    Ed had the bottle to take him on and Labour got the better brother.





  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think that you will find Ed Miliband is the Commissar who shoots his own troops for failure.

    Cameron would be the officer who went over the top, only to look back and see that his troops were not behind him, but have mutinied in the trench.

    Of course we need an officer who is neither of these, but rather clever enough to come up with a plan that doesn't involve a frontal assault on machine guns in the first place!

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    YouGov should be asked the same question for a few potential Conservative policies for next year's manifesto: "Reducing the rate of income tax for the highest earners", "increasing the rate of VAT (again)" or "Gerrymandering the constituencies ahead of the 2020 election"

    Maybe they should ask if the Tories should change the top rate of tax to the levels it at was for 13 years under Labour.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I agree, but Burnham would have been better still.

    Happy Birthday, Mike!

    Next said:

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    You mean the Cameron who had the guts to give his speech without notes in 2005 to electrify his leadership campaign.

    Compared to the Miliband who stabbed his own brother in the back to win his?

    These references to Miliband stabbing his brother in the back drive me crazy.

    David Miliband had his chance to run for the leadership in 2007 and ducked it - thus proving that he didn't have what it takes. He could have made bids in 2008 and 2008 but no - like Brown before him he wanted it gift wrapped on a plate. Pathetic.

    Ed had the bottle to take him on and Labour got the better brother.





  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    That is complete drivel.

    Aside from anything else the officer I would want to lead me over the top was the one who was most likely to lead me back again. The chap who goes up and takes the first bullet is gong to be no damn use to me as a leader, is he. You might want to rethink your metaphor.

    God knows my contempt for Cameron is widely known, but really Mr. Pete.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    William Hill - Scotland - Party With The Most Votes - European Parliament Elections

    SNP 1/4
    Lab 11/4
    UKIP 100/1
    Con 100/1
    LD 200/1
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    While 2010 LDs continue to split 80%-10% on Miliband as "Best PM" then you are probably wrong.
    2010 Lib Dems

    Net 'well':
    Cameron: -24
    miliband: -27

    Miliband (net)
    Made clear what he stands for: -34
    Been a strong leader: -31
    Up to job of Prime Minister: -27

    They also think by +27 that Miliband Sr would be a better leader than Miliband Jr......

    But apart from that, they're HUGE fans......

    I'm just talking about the switchers who are the only ones that matter and they split 80-10 EdM over DC.


  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited May 2014
    Isn't that a bit circular though? The libdems who switch to Milibands Labour are the ones who, er, prefer him to the Tories...

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    While 2010 LDs continue to split 80%-10% on Miliband as "Best PM" then you are probably wrong.
    2010 Lib Dems

    Net 'well':
    Cameron: -24
    miliband: -27

    Miliband (net)
    Made clear what he stands for: -34
    Been a strong leader: -31
    Up to job of Prime Minister: -27

    They also think by +27 that Miliband Sr would be a better leader than Miliband Jr......

    But apart from that, they're HUGE fans......

    I'm just talking about the switchers who are the only ones that matter and they split 80-10 EdM over DC.


  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "I agree, but Burnham would have been better still."

    Burnham, the fellow who thought that as the chap in charge leaving patients to die of starvation and thirst in their own poo was acceptable or at any rate nothing to do with him and certainly shouldn't come to light before an election. That Burnham? And you think he would be a good leader?
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    UKIP tightening in the Euros Most Votes market. New best prices:

    UKIP 1/2 (various)
    Lab 2/1 (Betfair)
    Con 35/1 (Betfair)
    LD 100/1 (Betfair)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Could you link to where Burnham said that patient neglect was fine?

    I have been working in the NHS for 25 years and have seen patient neglect under all governments, and also in patients transferred in from private providers.

    Burnham inherited Stafford from other ministers of health.

    "I agree, but Burnham would have been better still."

    Burnham, the fellow who thought that as the chap in charge leaving patients to die of starvation and thirst in their own poo was acceptable or at any rate nothing to do with him and certainly shouldn't come to light before an election. That Burnham? And you think he would be a good leader?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited May 2014

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    While 2010 LDs continue to split 80%-10% on Miliband as "Best PM" then you are probably wrong.
    2010 Lib Dems

    Net 'well':
    Cameron: -24
    miliband: -27

    Miliband (net)
    Made clear what he stands for: -34
    Been a strong leader: -31
    Up to job of Prime Minister: -27

    They also think by +27 that Miliband Sr would be a better leader than Miliband Jr......

    But apart from that, they're HUGE fans......

    I'm just talking about the switchers who are the only ones that matter and they split 80-10 EdM over DC.
    How big was the base on that sub-sample?

    And you didn't specify 'switchers' in your post......

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,878
    CarlottaVance No, History
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    "Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet."

    Probably by one of his own brothers in arms, or even his own brother. ; )

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Next said:

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    You mean the Cameron who had the guts to give his speech without notes in 2005 to electrify his leadership campaign.

    Compared to the Miliband who stabbed his own brother in the back to win his?

    Labour got the better brother.
    Not what the voters think......but what would they know?

    David is +23 vs Ed as better leader of the Labour Party in today's YouGov.......

  • NextNext Posts: 826
    Nigel Farage 'can't stand having bodyguards'

    UK Independence Party leader Nigel Farage says he is facing the threat of violence from organisations "headed up by senior Labour Party figures".

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27361605
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216


    Burnham inherited Stafford from other ministers of health.

    "I agree, but Burnham would have been better still."

    Burnham, the fellow who thought that as the chap in charge leaving patients to die of starvation and thirst in their own poo was acceptable or at any rate nothing to do with him and certainly shouldn't come to light before an election. That Burnham? And you think he would be a good leader?

    The preceding 5, over a dozen years, all Labour.....

    I agree, in a sense he was 'holding the parcel when the music stopped'......
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,388
    FPT @JosiasJessop

    Thank you
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited May 2014

    Next said:

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    You mean the Cameron who had the guts to give his speech without notes in 2005 to electrify his leadership campaign.

    Compared to the Miliband who stabbed his own brother in the back to win his?

    Labour got the better brother.
    Not what the voters think......but what would they know?

    David is +23 vs Ed as better leader of the Labour Party in today's YouGov.......

    If David Miliband had won, New Labour would still be here and the Iraq war baggage from the blairite former foreign secretary would have been enough to prevent the left from uniting the way Ed Miliband has done with a little help from Clegg. In that respect Ed is the right choice, he put an end to New Labour at the right moment.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    Next said:

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    You mean the Cameron who had the guts to give his speech without notes in 2005 to electrify his leadership campaign.

    Compared to the Miliband who stabbed his own brother in the back to win his?

    Labour got the better brother.
    Not what the voters think......but what would they know?

    David is +23 vs Ed as better leader of the Labour Party in today's YouGov.......

    Of course we don't know what David would have done as leader, and when people answer hypothetical questions like this they tend to imagine the person doing whatever they would have liked them to have done. Hence why Boris gets a theoretical bump in Tory poll ratings. When you're the guy on the spot, having to actually perform, you never do as well as people imagine.

    This isn't to say David wouldn't be better, but that anything other than a huge lead in a poll like that isn't particularly telling.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Speedy said:

    Next said:

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    You mean the Cameron who had the guts to give his speech without notes in 2005 to electrify his leadership campaign.

    Compared to the Miliband who stabbed his own brother in the back to win his?

    Labour got the better brother.
    Not what the voters think......but what would they know?

    David is +23 vs Ed as better leader of the Labour Party in today's YouGov.......

    Ed is the right choice, he put an end to New Labour at the right moment.
    Labour voters are split on 'new Labour' with 33% thinking they should continue with it, 37% against.

    No one else is split - everyone else thinks New Labour should be dumped.....(21:39), though not as strongly as they did last September (19:45).....

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,878
    OGH But of course they do, because they are leftwing, the 'real' swing voters, the 2010 LDs who have switched to the Tories and the 2010 Tories voting UKIP prefer DC to EM as do voters as a whole
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Hills - Referendum on EU membership to take place during lifetime of next government?

    No 1/4
    Yes 11/4
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Hills - Referendum on EU membership to take place during lifetime of next government?

    No 1/4
    Yes 11/4

    11/4 from 10/3
  • Edin_RokzEdin_Rokz Posts: 516
    Looks like Andrea Leadsom might have a few questions to answer:
    http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=in_the_back&issue=1365
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,878
    Carlotta/Speedy - Somewhat contradicted buy the fact that 24% of voters think Miliband's move left has been bad for Labour against only 19% who think it has been a good thing. Tory, LD and UKIP voters all think it has been bad for Labour, only Labour voters think it has helped them
    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/45cxqhtvw7/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-140509.pdf
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    John Rentoul gets his butter wrong:

    David Cameron, the Lurpak Spreadable* Prime Minister.

    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2014/05/11/new-zealand-butter-all-over-again/

    I guess "Anchor" was not the metaphor he was looking for...
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "Burnham inherited Stafford from other ministers of health."

    Lets, for the sake of argument, accept that for the moment. What did he do about it?

    "I have been working in the NHS for 25 years and have seen patient neglect under all governments, and also in patients transferred in from private providers."

    Do you want to think about that statement for a moment? You might really want to because the questions just stack up and up.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The preceding 5, over a dozen years, all Labour.....

    I agree, in a sense he was 'holding the parcel when the music stopped'......

    Which one of them signed off on trust status?
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Hills - England - European Parliament Elections - Party With The Most Votes

    East Midlands
    UKIP 11/10
    Conservatives 7/4
    Labour 11/4
    Liberal Democrats 150/1
    Greens 250/1

    South East
    UKIP 8/13
    Conservatives 6/5
    Greens 150/1
    Labour 150/1
    Liberal Democrats150/1

    East
    UKIP 2/5
    Conservatives 7/4
    Labour 66/1
    Liberal Democrats 200/1
    Greens 250/1

    http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/en-gb/betting/e/5954511/European-Parliament-Elections---Region-Betting.html
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited May 2014

    Speedy said:

    Next said:

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    You mean the Cameron who had the guts to give his speech without notes in 2005 to electrify his leadership campaign.

    Compared to the Miliband who stabbed his own brother in the back to win his?

    Labour got the better brother.
    Not what the voters think......but what would they know?

    David is +23 vs Ed as better leader of the Labour Party in today's YouGov.......

    Ed is the right choice, he put an end to New Labour at the right moment.
    Labour voters are split on 'new Labour' with 33% thinking they should continue with it, 37% against.

    No one else is split - everyone else thinks New Labour should be dumped.....(21:39), though not as strongly as they did last September (19:45).....

    New Labour was old, tired and besieged by scandal and incompetence. The face of it, Tony Blair, has become an anathema to voters in a way no other politician in modern times, even Thatcher was loved by a large group. Ed had limited participation in it and in the Labour front bench the only blairite heavyweight is Burnham. Contrast that with the shadow cabinet of Hague to see a continuation of the Thatcher/Major governments, the election of Ed Miliband signalled renewal not continuation, no one can blame Ed Miliband for Tony Blair's and Brown's policies in the way David Miliband is.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    isam said:

    Hills - Referendum on EU membership to take place during lifetime of next government?

    No 1/4
    Yes 11/4

    11/4 from 10/3
    Indeed. Going in your direction.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557

    UKIP tightening in the Euros Most Votes market. New best prices:

    UKIP 1/2 (various)
    Lab 2/1 (Betfair)
    Con 35/1 (Betfair)
    LD 100/1 (Betfair)

    Typo: LD price is missing a zero there.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Burnham was better than Reid, Hewitt or Milburn. The best of the Labour ministers of health.wwas Dobson.

    But I left the Labour party in part because of Milburns "reforms" and in part because of the Gulf war.

    Burnham was left holding the parcel, but it was the others that wrapped it. He was the best of the five contenders in 2010. The only one with communication skills and emotional intelligence. He could connect with voters and has vision.

    Ed Milliband was second best.


    Burnham inherited Stafford from other ministers of health.

    "I agree, but Burnham would have been better still."

    Burnham, the fellow who thought that as the chap in charge leaving patients to die of starvation and thirst in their own poo was acceptable or at any rate nothing to do with him and certainly shouldn't come to light before an election. That Burnham? And you think he would be a good leader?

    The preceding 5, over a dozen years, all Labour.....

    I agree, in a sense he was 'holding the parcel when the music stopped'......
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MrHarryCole: Today's loony SNP MSP: http://t.co/aUV4xUcCfq
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TelePolitics: Alex Salmond fails to apologise for Putin praise in letter to Ukranian expats http://t.co/Lz34Udi4GT
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689

    Mr. Pagan, disagree. If Cameron tries that the backbenchers will axe him immediately.

    Oh I dont disagree his backbenchers or at least some of them will be unhappy and he may end up being deposed over it. The thing is by then the damage is done, an in has been secured and Cameron will retire to some plushy job that the eu will find for him and the debate closed for another 20 years or so.

    Frankly even if you were to take Europe out of it I don't think Cameron would survive till the end of a second term without getting the chop in any case and I am pretty sure he knows it so he may as well secure himself a sinecure on the gravytrain by fixing a referendum.

    Should a miracle happen and the tories get another term I will watch in amusement as he wriggles and squirms and twists it to his own agenda and then I will turn round and say "told you so"

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ha!. UKIP accuses the SNP (UKIP in kilts) of stoking resentment for their anti-English views

    @TelePolitics: SNP student leader in racism row for calling David Cameron an English t*** http://t.co/v1Y4qGscti
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Scott_P said:

    @TelePolitics: Alex Salmond fails to apologise for Putin praise in letter to Ukranian expats http://t.co/Lz34Udi4GT

    Are there Ukranian-Scottish voters and do they have more votes and money that Russian-Scottish voters?
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Brighton Kemptown (Con Maj = 1,328) is number 25 on the list of Labour targets. Current best prices:

    Lab 4/7 (SJ)
    Con 9/4 (Lad)
    Grn 66/1
    UKIP 100/1
    LD 100/1
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Today's loony SNP MSP: http://t.co/aUV4xUcCfq

    desperate even by your very low standards, do you get out at all.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Today's loony SNP MSP: http://t.co/aUV4xUcCfq

    desperate even by your very low standards, do you get out at all.
    Let him get on with it Malcolm. He is quite deluded. The more guff he posts the better.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Today's loony SNP MSP: http://t.co/aUV4xUcCfq

    desperate even by your very low standards, do you get out at all.
    Do you agree that when you denigrate Scotland's FM you denigrate Scotland?

  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    'The man who disunited the kingdom'
    In their fury at Salmond's insouciance in the face of monetary exclusion, few Unionist commentators reflected on the impact of Osborne's unilateral declaration of monetary exclusion on the 300-year-old union between Scotland and England. Yet it was an episode of immense symbolic importance and has altered, possibly forever, Scotland's idea of what the UK was all about.

    The 1707 Union between Scotland and England was not regarded by Scots as a takeover or annexation, but rather a partnership. Scotland was not defeated by England in battle; it voluntarily relinquished its parliament (which anyway was not a democratic body) in exchange for religious certainty, security from invasion and access to emerging imperial markets.

    Scotland retained its national identity even as it lost what remained of its formal state - the elements that had not been taken south by James VI & I after the Union of the Crowns in 1603. Scotland did not cease to be a nation under the 1707 Act of Union, and its identity was entrenched through the institutions of kirk, education and legal system.

    The pound was the most obvious economic manifestation of that union. What no-one ever considered in Scotland was the possibility that one partner in the union could claim the pound as its exclusive property. That would imply that Scotland had not been part of a voluntary union at all, but had been absorbed into another sovereign entity.

    Perhaps Scotland had been deluding itself about its standing within the union, but the delusion was strongly held. Scotland never regarded itself as being, like Ireland, an internal colony, but as an active and functioning part of the British Empire. From the Seven Years War in the 1750s onwards, hundreds of thousands of Scots sacrificed their lives in the cause of Great Britain. However, after February 2014, this notion of a partnership of nations became very difficult to sustain.

    Here was a UK Chancellor laying down the law, in the most provocative terms, saying that the pound was the sole possession of one side and could be taken away at will. From being a bond of union, the pound became, overnight, a bond of coercion.
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/the-man-who-disunited-the-kingdom.24132681
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    "Burnham inherited Stafford from other ministers of health."

    Lets, for the sake of argument, accept that for the moment. What did he do about it?

    "I have been working in the NHS for 25 years and have seen patient neglect under all governments, and also in patients transferred in from private providers."

    Do you want to think about that statement for a moment? You might really want to because the questions just stack up and up.

    At one stage of my life I was concerned with patients moving between hospital and community care and between privately-run care homes and hospital. I noted, and drew to the attention, of senior colleagues, that it appeared that pressure sores NEVER occurred in patients in any of those sectors but staff in all of those sectors complained that they had to spend time alleviating that condition which had arisen in the sector from which the patient had come!
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    From the same author earlier this year;

    "When they separated 20 years ago, the Czechs and the Slovaks planned to have a currency union. It seemed the rational thing to do. Why erect barriers to trade, burden businesses with transaction costs and force Czechs to go through the hassle of changing currency every time they visited their relatives in Slovakia? But within six months the arrangement was breaking up, largely because of a flight of funds from Slovakia to the supposedly "advanced" Czech Republic. Trust broke down."


  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Sky Sports news anchor Hayley McQueen made an interesting observation looking ahead to the Rio 2014 World Cup, posting: "The last time #Austria won #Eurovision, England won the World Cup."

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/eurovision-winner-conchita-sparks-twitter-storm.1399818966

    England currently 33/1.
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 891
    Belgium game

    For anyone that would like to play, the game for Belgium is now out:

    http://www.electiongame.co.uk/belgium14/

    Entries close 7am Thursday 22nd May - the Euros game will be out next.

    Many thanks,

    DC
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    MrJones said:
    Sending in paramilitaries from Western Ukraine committing atrocities seems to have bolstered the yes vote. Note to Cameron not to do the same with Scotland.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    FalseFlag said:

    MrJones said:
    Sending in paramilitaries from Western Ukraine committing atrocities seems to have bolstered the yes vote. Note to Cameron not to do the same with Scotland.
    More of your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, following up on your antisemitic allusions about US diplomats. The main bolster to the vote has been the manufactured ballots:

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/100000-yes-ballots-for-referendum-intercepted-2-347222.html

    And the paramilitaries involved are the ones counting the vote. It will be about as free and fair as Russia's last election. No wonder the Ukrainians want to join the West and move towards democracy in the way that Poland and the Baltics have.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Scott_P said:

    Ha!. UKIP accuses the SNP (UKIP in kilts) of stoking resentment for their anti-English views

    @TelePolitics: SNP student leader in racism row for calling David Cameron an English t*** http://t.co/v1Y4qGscti

    Roisin McLaren, president of Edinburgh University’s SNP branch, said that she had ignored the Prime Minister’s pleas to save the Union because it was “an English t*** telling us all what to do.”

    Arguing that Mr Cameron is a “toff Tory politician, who nobody here likes or voted for”, the 19-year-old dismissed his plea by concluding: “F*** off! If he If he’s had any sense, he would have kept his gob shut.”

    A future SNP leader?
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    'The man who disunited the kingdom'

    In their fury at Salmond's insouciance in the face of monetary exclusion, few Unionist commentators reflected on the impact of Osborne's unilateral declaration of monetary exclusion on the 300-year-old union between Scotland and England. Yet it was an episode of immense symbolic importance and has altered, possibly forever, Scotland's idea of what the UK was all about.

    The 1707 Union between Scotland and England was not regarded by Scots as a takeover or annexation, but rather a partnership. Scotland was not defeated by England in battle; it voluntarily relinquished its parliament (which anyway was not a democratic body) in exchange for religious certainty, security from invasion and access to emerging imperial markets.

    Scotland retained its national identity even as it lost what remained of its formal state - the elements that had not been taken south by James VI & I after the Union of the Crowns in 1603. Scotland did not cease to be a nation under the 1707 Act of Union, and its identity was entrenched through the institutions of kirk, education and legal system.

    The pound was the most obvious economic manifestation of that union. What no-one ever considered in Scotland was the possibility that one partner in the union could claim the pound as its exclusive property. That would imply that Scotland had not been part of a voluntary union at all, but had been absorbed into another sovereign entity.

    Perhaps Scotland had been deluding itself about its standing within the union, but the delusion was strongly held. Scotland never regarded itself as being, like Ireland, an internal colony, but as an active and functioning part of the British Empire. From the Seven Years War in the 1750s onwards, hundreds of thousands of Scots sacrificed their lives in the cause of Great Britain. However, after February 2014, this notion of a partnership of nations became very difficult to sustain.

    Here was a UK Chancellor laying down the law, in the most provocative terms, saying that the pound was the sole possession of one side and could be taken away at will. From being a bond of union, the pound became, overnight, a bond of coercion.
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/the-man-who-disunited-the-kingdom.24132681

    What drivel. The pound is certainly a manifestation of the union and belongs to all parts of that union. But you can't expect to maintain the union's institutions when you leave the union. It would be like demanding a divorce but insisting on maintaining a joint bank account.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Next said:

    JackW said:

    A small consideration for the PB community but I'm minded to the view that :

    Ed Miliband will never be Prime Minister.

    Similar comments were made about Mrs T in the late seventies.

    The question of who has the greater intellectual self-confidence can only be determined by head-to-head debates,which Cameron is so determined to avoid.The answer is that Cameron suffers from Lack of Moral Fibre.

    Which officer would you trust if you were in the trenches about to go over the top?Young Miliband would lead his troops over the top and take the first bullet.Cameron,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort who would remain in the trenches,snivelling,with his head in his hands complaining of PTSD and crying out for nanny.

    You mean the Cameron who had the guts to give his speech without notes in 2005 to electrify his leadership campaign.

    Compared to the Miliband who stabbed his own brother in the back to win his?

    These references to Miliband stabbing his brother in the back drive me crazy.

    David Miliband had his chance to run for the leadership in 2007 and ducked it - thus proving that he didn't have what it takes. He could have made bids in 2008 and 2008 but no - like Brown before him he wanted it gift wrapped on a plate. Pathetic.

    Ed had the bottle to take him on and Labour got the better brother.





    If the situation was simply that Ed ran against David in the leadership campaign then fair play to him. I don't think, however, that would explain the bitterness that David clearly feels. This means that there are two possible explanations:

    (a) David Miliband is unbelievable arrogant and believed the leadership was his by right. Possible, certainly, but seems unlikely given that the anger is clearly festering.

    (b) There was a story that I heard which was that Ed Miliband actively persuaded his brother not to stand against Brown. *IF* this was true and *IF* his motive was that he (Ed) would have the opportunity to become PM - which he probably would never have if his brother was leader of the Labour Party - then this would explain the bitterness.

    I have no way of knowing whether (b) is true or not. *IF* it is, then it would explain a lot of things - and Ed Miliband would absolutely deserve his reputation as a backstabber.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,031

    Sky Sports news anchor Hayley McQueen made an interesting observation looking ahead to the Rio 2014 World Cup, posting: "The last time #Austria won #Eurovision, England won the World Cup."

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/eurovision-winner-conchita-sparks-twitter-storm.1399818966

    England currently 33/1.

    Sky Sports news anchor Hayley McQueen made an interesting observation looking ahead to the Rio 2014 World Cup, posting: "The last time #Austria won #Eurovision, England won the World Cup."

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/eurovision-winner-conchita-sparks-twitter-storm.1399818966

    England currently 33/1.

    One definitely for the saying 'correlation does not imply causation'.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Ryan Chan @Ryan_L_Chan

    Some #Labour #bigot activists are rendered speechless by the idea that a #Pakistani might vote for anyone else! #UKIP pic.twitter.com/hipx7fVzo1

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Socrates said:

    What drivel. The pound is certainly a manifestation of the union and belongs to all parts of that union. But you can't expect to maintain the union's institutions when you leave the union. It would be like demanding a divorce but insisting on maintaining a joint bank account.

    While I agree with you, my ex-wife and I maintained a joint credit card for a few years following our separation, and even some time after our formal divorce.

    I'm sure that the politicians of England and Scotland will be as capable of sorting out similar transitional arrangements for sharing the currency for a period after Scottish Independence.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Oh, and if it helps massage the egos of our northern brethren, they are perfectly welcome to keep the existing British Pound, and the rest of the UK can establish a new currency, which we could take as an opportunity to knock a zero off the end, so that 1 New English Pound (NEP) was equal in value to £10.
  • RobD said:

    Sky Sports news anchor Hayley McQueen made an interesting observation looking ahead to the Rio 2014 World Cup, posting: "The last time #Austria won #Eurovision, England won the World Cup."

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/eurovision-winner-conchita-sparks-twitter-storm.1399818966

    England currently 33/1.

    Sky Sports news anchor Hayley McQueen made an interesting observation looking ahead to the Rio 2014 World Cup, posting: "The last time #Austria won #Eurovision, England won the World Cup."

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/eurovision-winner-conchita-sparks-twitter-storm.1399818966

    England currently 33/1.

    One definitely for the saying 'correlation does not imply causation'.
    Italy, Portugal and the Netherlands are 30/32/38 on Betfair respectively
    Opportunities for trading bets as they do seem a tad long to me.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. Dickson, that excerpt is completely bonkers.

    Nobody's saying the pound is exclusively English. There are no plans to stop the Welsh or Northern Irish using it. What is common sense is the view that if you leave a country you don't have a God-given right to demand a currency union with the country you just left.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Incidentally, the latest PB Diplomacy game is up and running.

    I'm Russia, again. Still, I do quite like the Winter Palace.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. Dickson, that excerpt is completely bonkers.

    Nobody's saying the pound is exclusively English. There are no plans to stop the Welsh or Northern Irish using it. What is common sense is the view that if you leave a country you don't have a God-given right to demand a currency union with the country you just left.

    One can expect that, if Scotland leaves the Union, it will provoke a backlash among the English that will lead to a resurgence of English nationalism in response. Indeed, it is notable that UKIP is primarily an English phenomenon, and despite its name I would identify it primarily with English nationalism.

    Under such circumstances one would not expect that Wales would long remain as part of the Union, which leaves Northern Ireland as even more of an embarrassing anomaly.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,031

    Oh, and if it helps massage the egos of our northern brethren, they are perfectly welcome to keep the existing British Pound, and the rest of the UK can establish a new currency, which we could take as an opportunity to knock a zero off the end, so that 1 New English Pound (NEP) was equal in value to £10.

    Would be quite nice to bring the price of a pint down to 30p! Can't think of anything that costs <10p nowadays so why not ;-)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mid Staffs Trust became a Foundation Trust under Alan Johnson, who also instigated the first enquiry (the leading campaigner on the issue lost her mother there in 2007, the year before it became a foundation Trust). Andy Burnham instigated the second enquiry, which produced a critical report a few months before the 2010 general election, hardly evidence of cover up.

    I have indeed seen evidence of poor care in several hospitals, and also in patients transferred in from private sector and also from several european countries. I have worked internationally and seen poor practice in other countries. It is not unique to the NHS or more common here.

    Good hospitals have proper internal methods for reviewing problems and instituting remedial changes. I have been active in both training and in leading audit and morbidity meetings to address these issues in a variety of places.

    The problem with Stafford was the management not listening to the staff or patients, and not unique.

    I should point out that University Hospitals Leicester scored very well on these issues in the recent Care Quality Commission and I can vouch for the management taking governance issues raised by staff very seriously.

    "Burnham inherited Stafford from other ministers of health."

    Lets, for the sake of argument, accept that for the moment. What did he do about it?

    "I have been working in the NHS for 25 years and have seen patient neglect under all governments, and also in patients transferred in from private providers."

    Do you want to think about that statement for a moment? You might really want to because the questions just stack up and up.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    "Burnham inherited Stafford from other ministers of health."

    Lets, for the sake of argument, accept that for the moment. What did he do about it?

    "I have been working in the NHS for 25 years and have seen patient neglect under all governments, and also in patients transferred in from private providers."

    Do you want to think about that statement for a moment? You might really want to because the questions just stack up and up.

    At one stage of my life I was concerned with patients moving between hospital and community care and between privately-run care homes and hospital. I noted, and drew to the attention, of senior colleagues, that it appeared that pressure sores NEVER occurred in patients in any of those sectors but staff in all of those sectors complained that they had to spend time alleviating that condition which had arisen in the sector from which the patient had come!
    From what you and Dr. Sox say, and let me first make it clear that I have no comment to make your personal conduct as physicians, that patient neglect to to point culpability is endemic in our health service. Well, its nice to have professionals confirm my own experiences.

    Not sure it helps with selling the idea that Burnham would make a good leader though.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457
    RobD said:

    Oh, and if it helps massage the egos of our northern brethren, they are perfectly welcome to keep the existing British Pound, and the rest of the UK can establish a new currency, which we could take as an opportunity to knock a zero off the end, so that 1 New English Pound (NEP) was equal in value to £10.

    Would be quite nice to bring the price of a pint down to 30p! Can't think of anything that costs <10p nowadays so why not ;-)</p>
    A few years back, Turkey changed from the Old Turkish Lira to the New Turkish Lira by knocking six noughts off the end of their currency ...

    If you think we've got problems with our exchange rate, then you should read the following:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_lira
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,031

    RobD said:

    Oh, and if it helps massage the egos of our northern brethren, they are perfectly welcome to keep the existing British Pound, and the rest of the UK can establish a new currency, which we could take as an opportunity to knock a zero off the end, so that 1 New English Pound (NEP) was equal in value to £10.

    Would be quite nice to bring the price of a pint down to 30p! Can't think of anything that costs <10p nowadays so why not ;-)</p>
    A few years back, Turkey changed from the Old Turkish Lira to the New Turkish Lira by knocking six noughts off the end of their currency ...

    If you think we've got problems with our exchange rate, then you should read the following:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_lira
    I guess we'd lose "GBP" as the code for the currency if we did change.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Austria for a change. I have never won with Austria....

    Incidentally, the latest PB Diplomacy game is up and running.

    I'm Russia, again. Still, I do quite like the Winter Palace.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited May 2014
    FalseFlag said:

    MrJones said:
    Sending in paramilitaries from Western Ukraine committing atrocities seems to have bolstered the yes vote. Note to Cameron not to do the same with Scotland.
    It is easy to see why the West are reluctant to take on Russia's military power and determination. A satellite picture of what lies to the East of the Ukraine-Russian border would put off even the more gung-ho NATO general.

    So the fight for the Ukraine has so far been diplomatic, with the US attempting to finesse the nations of Europe into condemning Russia as the sole aggressor. With the national media of the West broadly following the line of their politicians and diplomats our public broadly accepts that Russia is at fault. We saw the consequences in the mild booing of countries (including the Ukraine) who voted for Russia's song in the Eurovision contest.

    But "mild" is the right word to describe our collective protest. We object but not at any cost to ourselves even when considering economic sanctions. "Not at the expense of our gas supplies" is the cry in Germany. "Not if it means the City loses its oligarch investors" in London. There is certainly little sign of any Westerner wishing to shed their blood in the cause of freedom East of the Dnieper. The incident is too remote; the causes and consequences too uncertain.

    But the Diplomats are not only losing on their chosen field of battle, they are also losing the support of the media and its public.

    Today we have seen the grim industrial heartlands of the Donbass basis lit up by late spring sunshine and the ordered queuing of tens of thousands to vote in a chaotic, unofficial and ambiguous referendum. Everywhere the voxpop is the same: "We want to take our children to school in safety" and "We want order and security and peace", all spoken as the cameras show the vital 'yes' mark entered by all means fair and foul.

    You can quibble with the procedures of the referendum, challenge its validity in law or question its political consequences, but no one viewing the TV pictures today can doubt it is a genuine expression by a local majority of its current political will.

    So the West, in particular the US and EU, have ruled themselves out of a military action, failed to agree any resolute or meaningful diplomatic response and now seem themselves losing the PR battle.

    To cap it all the only other news coming from the Ukraine today is that members of the Kiev controlled National Militia opened fire on a crowd attempting to vote in Krasnoarmeisk, killing an unknown number.

    The handling of the Ukraine crisis by the West must rank as one of the greatest foreign policy failures since WWII.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Socrates said:

    FalseFlag said:

    MrJones said:
    Sending in paramilitaries from Western Ukraine committing atrocities seems to have bolstered the yes vote. Note to Cameron not to do the same with Scotland.
    More of your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, following up on your antisemitic allusions about US diplomats. The main bolster to the vote has been the manufactured ballots:

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/100000-yes-ballots-for-referendum-intercepted-2-347222.html

    And the paramilitaries involved are the ones counting the vote. It will be about as free and fair as Russia's last election. No wonder the Ukrainians want to join the West and move towards democracy in the way that Poland and the Baltics have.
    Not read the Sunday Times today then? The massacre in Mariupol was carried out by the Kiev paramilitaries. Very surprised to see the Times taking a relatively balanced approach to the Ukraine, encouraging though. Still given most of the Ukrainian army won't carry out its orders, entire units have been disbanded and that the Burkut has also had to be disbanded there is no one left.

    Out of interest are you the only one left not to have listened to the recorded conversations of Nudelman-Kagan selecting the new government or of Ashton discussing the shootings in the Maidan being the work of the protestors with the Estonian foreign minister?

    I am sure those pictures you linked to are not the CIA up to their old tricks.

    Quite why and where you picked your agenda up from, historical ethnic prejudice and phobia regarding Russia's law on adoptions seem to be the motivator for many folks, I don't know but it is certainly irrational.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Austria for a change. I have never won with Austria....

    Incidentally, the latest PB Diplomacy game is up and running.

    I'm Russia, again. Still, I do quite like the Winter Palace.

    Dang, I have got England. I hate playing England.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689

    Austria for a change. I have never won with Austria....

    Incidentally, the latest PB Diplomacy game is up and running.

    I'm Russia, again. Still, I do quite like the Winter Palace.

    Dang, I have got England. I hate playing England.
    Germany here, never won with Germany....though to be fair never won with any country as this is my first game :)

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