I shall ask the locals whilst I wait and report back.
You claim ethnic background TSE, may I ask from where?
So as not to suppose I'm attacking ethnics, heres mine. My family, as far back as 2 centuries ago, Are Ukrainian, Russian, and part Turkish. If I delve further, I have some Tartar blood too.
My Grandparents emigrated here from the Punjab.
Though I consider myself English and British and Yorkshire too
Thanks, and now I'm off to watch pointless.
Pointless? Is that a documentary on voting for UKIP?
Agreed that 4/1 seems like value for Labour. It's effectively a bet on the size of the UKIP spoiler effect. I'd put Labour at roughly 5/2. Labour will be pretty disappointed if they don't get within spitting distance of the Tories.
I also agree that the Conservative price seems a little short.
The things you learn on PB. Not entirely sure how this knowledge will help me but still...
Gerry Rafferty's Baker Street will never sound the same again for you.
So true. And I usually end up humming it as you go through Baker Street to St John's Wood for Lords. Mind you that is on the grey line which sadly is more appropriate still.
@bbclaurak: Hearing Ed Miliband turned down a meeting with Pfizer boss to discuss Astra bid, too busy with campaign apparently! much more on #newsnight
Ed doesn't converse with mere CEOs who are not up to his level intellectual self confidence.
Too busy giggling with his sycophant SPADs over silly PPB's.
Seems like the Ukip strategy is working much better than the Con strategy.
Yes.....and no.
Yes.....the UKIP threat is big enough for the EU to realise it will have to do something substantial No......the something substantial might be enough for soft kippers to switch back.
Pointless is one of those TV quizzes BBC executives commission for the idiotic masses but would never let their own children watch in a million years in case it addles their brains. Another example is Deal or No Deal on Channel 4 with Noel Edmonds.
I mean, there's UKIP paranoia, and there's believing that Tap must be a tool of the 'main political parties'.
[Incidentally, as I've posted before, UKIP's enthusiasm for fracking is a significant point - I don't think voters in the leafy shires have yet picked up on it.]
Seems like the Ukip strategy is working much better than the Con strategy.
Yes.....and no.
Yes.....the UKIP threat is big enough for the EU to realise it will have to do something substantial No......the something substantial might be enough for soft kippers to switch back.
Pointless is one of those TV quizzes BBC executives commission for the idiotic masses but would never let their own children watch in a million years in case it addles their brains. Another example is Deal or No Deal on Channel 4 with Noel Edmonds.
Nothing wrong with pointless .
Quite a way from Deal or No Deal tbh - that truly is mindless.
Pointless is one of those TV quizzes BBC executives commission for the idiotic masses but would never let their own children watch in a million years in case it addles their brains. Another example is Deal or No Deal on Channel 4 with Noel Edmonds.
Nothing wrong with pointless .
Quite a way from Deal or No Deal tbh - that truly is mindless.
Just had personable Green canvasser at the door. Could they count on my support...
I might kick it away, and leave them hanging in the air.
Love to know how they get on when they canvass homes of Bristol Rugby, City or Rovers fans given the blocking tactics over ground redevelopments. Guy had seen LDs, nothing from Labour.
It's Kingboy D. He's had a long track record of graffiting in the name of art.
A truly weird genius.
Not familiar with his ‘art’ - He’s certainly not what I would call a lover of free speech though.!
He (along with Jimmy Cauty) burnt a million pounds, videoed it, then went around asking people why. In the name of art.
They also awarded money for the worst piece of modern art in the Turner Prize as judged by the public. Rachel Whitehead won both the main prize, and the KLF's prize, for her abomination of an inside-out house. She refused to accept the prize money, so they nailed it to a door.
Jason Burt's Inside Football: Top Premier League managers are among those who have agreed to take part in programmes in front of live audiences on Sky, BT Sport and BBC
Football managers from all four divisions of the English leagues have agreed to take part in a new series of ground-breaking “Question Time” style debates which will be broadcast live.
We really should stop discussing the tube until Sunil is back from India.
Quite right, and pirates too.
P.S. Must confess this Baker Street stuff has been quite an eye-opener to me. Never heard the expression before, Mr. Jessop's link left me even more confused (a B-side is to do with old fashioned records, isn't it?) only when Mr. Fett chipped in did I begin to understand, I think.
I may also be the only person in the world who has this 7 inch on his jukebox....
(snip)
It's not on my jukebox (simply because I don't have one), but I've got the original 7" single. I always wanted 'Kylie said to Jason' in single form, but never found one.
I bet 'Gary joins the JAMs' doesn't get played much any more. *innocent face*
Jason Burt's Inside Football: Top Premier League managers are among those who have agreed to take part in programmes in front of live audiences on Sky, BT Sport and BBC
Football managers from all four divisions of the English leagues have agreed to take part in a new series of ground-breaking “Question Time” style debates which will be broadcast live.
To my mind UKIP is a protest party, they really have only one policy, to leave the EU. I think there greatest achievement was to force/encourage a main stream political party to agree to hold an in/out referendum on staying in the EU. If such a referendum is held then surely they have achieved their aim. If the vote is to leave the EU, job done. If the vote is stay then UKIP have tried but the British people have voted against them.
I am someone who would vote to leave the EU (despite my many questions regarding the implementing of such a policy with some many Europeans currently living here) and want the chance to have this vote.
If UKIP achieve above 15% at the GE then Miliband will be PM. There will then be absolutely no chance of a referendum. The unions will not allow it. Therefore I will not get my vote.
Can anyone who supports UKIP give me a reason for supporting UKIP at the GE when it seems that if I do I will be helping to ensure that the British people do not get a chance to vote on the EU. Please do not give me the nonsense that UKIP will be able to put pressure on Milliband. He is a union man.
I simply cannot get my head around the UKIP reasoning. Why wouldn't they encourage their supporters to vote for a party who are actually going to implement UKIPs only policy. I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.
I may also be the only person in the world who has this 7 inch on his jukebox....
[snip for space and decency]
I have the mp3 on my phone and iPod
Dear God! With that, Baker Street and Modern Art ... please can we have a new thread? Something more interesting and agreeable to all. You know something like, Scottish Independence or Voting Systems.
@JJ – Cheers for that. It would appear I am not entirely ignorant of the ‘artwork’ of either Kingboy D or Rachel Whiteread, ta for reminding me of why they were so easily forgotten.
@JJ – Cheers for that. It would appear I am not entirely ignorant of the ‘artwork’ of either Kingboy D or Rachel Whiteread, ta for reminding me of why they were so easily forgotten.
Even if you entirely trust the Conservatives to give you the referendum, that will only happen if they win a majority at the next election. Neither the Lib Dems nor Labour would agree to one as the price of coalition, seeing as they would both prefer to go into coalition with each other. Given that even a huge improvement in the vote for the Conservatives won't get them the six or seven point lead they need for an absolute majority, we're not going to get a European referendum in the next parliamentary term.
The question then becomes, what's most likely to cause one in the term after next: a stronger Conservative performance at the next election, or a stronger UKIP performance? For me, it is pretty clear that it is only the latter that bounced the Conservatives into holding a referendum, and if UKIP fades away as a threat, then the Tories won't put it in their 2020 manifesto. A stronger UKIP performance will, on the other hand, shake the establishment to its core - and would be interpreted as the reason Miliband failed to win an outright majority if that happened. That will also make Labour more eurosceptic - for purely tactical reasons - in future.
I may also be the only person in the world who has this 7 inch on his jukebox....
[snip for space and decency]
I have the mp3 on my phone and iPod
Dear God! With that, Baker Street and Modern Art ... please can we have a new thread? Something more interesting and agreeable to all. You know something like, Scottish Independence or Voting Systems.
To my mind UKIP is a protest party, they really have only one policy, to leave the EU. I think there greatest achievement was to force/encourage a main stream political party to agree to hold an in/out referendum on staying in the EU. If such a referendum is held then surely they have achieved their aim. If the vote is to leave the EU, job done. If the vote is stay then UKIP have tried but the British people have voted against them.
I am someone who would vote to leave the EU (despite my many questions regarding the implementing of such a policy with some many Europeans currently living here) and want the chance to have this vote.
If UKIP achieve above 15% at the GE then Miliband will be PM. There will then be absolutely no chance of a referendum. The unions will not allow it. Therefore I will not get my vote.
Can anyone who supports UKIP give me a reason for supporting UKIP at the GE when it seems that if I do I will be helping to ensure that the British people do not get a chance to vote on the EU. Please do not give me the nonsense that UKIP will be able to put pressure on Milliband. He is a union man.
I simply cannot get my head around the UKIP reasoning. Why wouldn't they encourage their supporters to vote for a party who are actually going to implement UKIPs only policy. I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.
I like the "politics of the answer against the politics of anger" line.
Why's he targetting Phil Woolas ?
If Cameron thinks Farage's success is all down to emotion and not proper arguments, then surely he'll jump at the chance to debate him before the election. He's already ducked out of one chance, and the signs are he's running scare from the next one.
Cameron said that Farage was wrong to try and pull Britain out of the EU which would limit access to crucial markets. "He is wrong. The idea of turning your back on the world and saying we are going to try and build fortress Britain, we are going to leave Europe, we are going to shut the door to anybody coming here. It is a totally unrealistic, pessimistic vision about what this country can achieve."
How to argue like a Europhile, method #1: Speak in high level woolly terms that have little connection to practical reality.
Cameron also knows full well that UKIP's position is to maintain a trade agreement with the EU, and also to sign them with the rest of the world. So he's deliberately lying to make his case.
To my mind UKIP is a protest party, they really have only one policy, to leave the EU. I think there greatest achievement was to force/encourage a main stream political party to agree to hold an in/out referendum on staying in the EU. If such a referendum is held then surely they have achieved their aim. If the vote is to leave the EU, job done. If the vote is stay then UKIP have tried but the British people have voted against them.
I am someone who would vote to leave the EU (despite my many questions regarding the implementing of such a policy with some many Europeans currently living here) and want the chance to have this vote.
If UKIP achieve above 15% at the GE then Miliband will be PM. There will then be absolutely no chance of a referendum. The unions will not allow it. Therefore I will not get my vote.
Can anyone who supports UKIP give me a reason for supporting UKIP at the GE when it seems that if I do I will be helping to ensure that the British people do not get a chance to vote on the EU. Please do not give me the nonsense that UKIP will be able to put pressure on Milliband. He is a union man.
I simply cannot get my head around the UKIP reasoning. Why wouldn't they encourage their supporters to vote for a party who are actually going to implement UKIPs only policy. I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.
UKIP supporters simply don't trust Cameron to implement his referendum policy. Suppose we have another hung parliament and Nick Clegg goes to Cameron and says "I'll back another Con-LD coalition only if you drop your referendum pledge", then what do you think Cameron will do? Even if by some miracle he does get a majority, you can be sure he will try to find some way to weasel out of it.
Fundamentally, Cameron's problem is that he started off as a One Nation (Macmillan, Heath) type Tory rather than a Thatcherite.The Tory right have dragged him into addressing issues such as Europe that are close to their heart. The problem is this doesn't work as Cameron is insincere. He hasn't suddenly turned into a Thatcherite over night! He is just trying to fob off the right (and potential UKIP supporters) until he has won re-election.
I like the "politics of the answer against the politics of anger" line.
Why's he targetting Phil Woolas ?
If Cameron thinks Farage's success is all down to emotion and not proper arguments, then surely he'll jump at the chance to debate him before the election. He's already ducked out of one chance, and the signs are he's running scare from the next one.
No idea Mr S, I think they're both twitter users. For the average voter a sumo match between Prescott and Pickles would be more enlightening and contain less posturing.
I like the "politics of the answer against the politics of anger" line.
ToryJim would be better crying into his cups with ToryJane. The Tories, lead by Cammo, now looking over a crevasse that they never thought would ever form. Perhaps they will now stop taking the British people for granted.
With less than a year to go to the election, you'd expect more polls than ever: instead they seem to have dried up. The same is true for Scottish Independence polls.
I like the "politics of the answer against the politics of anger" line.
ToryJim would be better crying into his cups with ToryJane. The Tories, lead by Cammo, now looking over a crevasse that they never thought would ever form. Perhaps they will now stop taking the British people for granted.
You have an unhealthy obsession with Cameron Mr K.
''Britain should be treated as a special case in the European Union, and other member states "can and should" find ways to respond to its concerns over its position within the 28-nation bloc, European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso has said.''
From Bloomberg
It's amazing how desperate Tories are to jump on even a hint of repatriation. Merkel's been saying this sort of thing for ages - but she's been completely unwilling to actually offer anything of substance.
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
We really should stop discussing the tube until Sunil is back from India.
Quite right, and pirates too.
P.S. Must confess this Baker Street stuff has been quite an eye-opener to me. Never heard the expression before, Mr. Jessop's link left me even more confused (a B-side is to do with old fashioned records, isn't it?) only when Mr. Fett chipped in did I begin to understand, I think.
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Oh I don't know. The turkeys at Westminster have happily been handing their powers over to Brussels, regional Parliaments and even quangos. Eventually someone is going to ask the questions what are they for and why do we have so many of them ?
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Ah the favourite delusion of the Tories; that somehow UKIP are as corrupt, self serving and devoid of principles as Cameron and his coterie.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
I like the "politics of the answer against the politics of anger" line.
I think the Labour PEB was good as an anti-Clegg hit aimed at RedLibs but a lot of people seem to think it was anti-Tory. No doubt it was intended to be but it wasn't. Making the Cameroons out to be old-style competent Toffs is **positive** for the Tories relatively speaking even if the overall context is negative. The right way for Labour to attack is not Toffs but spivs something like
...
bod passing spiv in the street
spiv: psst mate, want to score some royal mail?
bod: how much?
spiv: £100, worth £400
bod: got anything else, any water, rail, any nice power companies?
spiv: nah all gone mate, not much left - royal mail though, lovely, £100 a quarter worth £400
bod: sure you got nothing better - any NHS?
spiv: no nhs yet, it'll be a year or two, i've got some allotments - worth £50 yours for a tenner
bod turns his nose up. okay give me a quarter of royal mail
spiv: lovely jubbly
bod gets his cheque book out
spiv: eh, eh mate don't be silly, cash only mate, cash only
Salaam from Dubai. Strangest country ever. Not entirely horrible.
Helmer's 'controversial' comments on rape show the disconnect between the political classes and the public, and underline UKIP's appeal.
All he has said is that a woman who goes out drinking til two, and then encourages a man to believe she wants sex, before changing her mind, is more responsible for what happens if she gets raped , than some nun who gets raped at knifepoint in a convent. He's not saying rape can ever be excused, just that women can act in ways which make rape more likely and that is a factor when determining the punishment of the crime.
Probably 79% of the public would agree with this. Yet all the main parties are signed up to the ridiculous feminist notion that all rapes are the same and all rapists deserve 80 years in jail, and the woman's behaviour is totally irrelevant even if she drinks three crates of gin and walks naked into a jacuzzi full of rugby players saying Take Me Now.
How did we arrive at this position, where we are governed by an entire class of people whose views we find absurd?
Salaam from Dubai. Strangest country ever. Not entirely horrible.
Helmer's 'controversial' comments on rape show the disconnect between the political classes and the public, and underline UKIP's appeal.
All he has said is that a woman who goes out drinking til two, and then encourages a man to believe she wants sex, before changing her mind, is more responsible for what happens if she gets raped , than some nun who gets raped at knifepoint in a convent. He's not saying rape can ever be excused, just that women can act in ways which make rape more likely and that is a factor when determining the punishment of the crime.
Probably 79% of the public would agree with this. Yet all the main parties are signed up to the ridiculous feminist notion that all rapes are the same and all rapists deserve 80 years in jail, and the woman's behaviour is totally irrelevant even if she drinks three crates of gin and walks naked into a jacuzzi full of rugby players saying Take Me Now.
How did we arrive at this position, where we are governed by an entire class of people whose views we find absurd?
Yep, you are right
It is because there didn't used to be an alternative.
It's amazing how desperate Tories are to jump on even a hint of repatriation
Maybe you are right, but I've never heard Barrosso speak in those terms before, so I thought it worth posting.
I probably don't like the EU any more than you do, and I've been very skeptical they would do a meaningful deal.
Now, with UKIP rampant and other nationalist parties doing well all over northern Europe, I'm not so sure. I'm starting to think they might.
The Eurocrats can experience a Euro-caused financial crisis, millions plunged into unemployment, rioting on the streets across the Mediterranean, a quasi-fascist government in Hungary, and malaria returning to Greece, and STILL not believe the Euro was a bad idea. If their views are that insulated from reality, why on Earth do you think they will change them based on a quarter of the vote going to eurosceptic parties? Their view, as before, will be say "well a majority still voted for pro-EU parties, so we should just ride out the trend".
I'm not inherently anti-EU. If we had a EU which was based around common defence, a solid alliance with the USA, stamping out democratic abuses in member states, and a global free trade outlook, I could support it. But right now it's defining characteristics are mass migration, a destructive system of agricultural subsidies, and protectionism with the rest of the world. We're not going to get anything of any merit on any of those three in the renegotiation.
..Can anyone who supports UKIP give me a reason for supporting UKIP at the GE when it seems that if I do I will be helping to ensure that the British people do not get a chance to vote on the EU. Please do not give me the nonsense that UKIP will be able to put pressure on Milliband. He is a union man.
I simply cannot get my head around the UKIP reasoning. Why wouldn't they encourage their supporters to vote for a party who are actually going to implement UKIPs only policy.....
Mr. Star, Perhaps I can give it a try, though please be certain on this I am not a member of UKIP and carry no torch for them.
Cameron has promised a referendum on staying in the EU. He has also promised to renegotiate our terms of membership in less than two years despite every other major power saying that such a thing is impossible. He has also said that he cannot foresee the circumstances in which in will be in the UK's interests to leave. So if you believe that Britain will be better off out, Cameron's negotiate and choose referendum promise might seem, shall we say,slightly less than straightforward.
In terms of negotiation he has already blown it - by saying he wants to stay in regardless of the outcome he has ensured that no other player will take him seriously. He has also by the same means ensured that there is a significant chunk of people who believe him to be fundamentally dishonest.
UKIP by contrast do not want a referendum as a means to silence internal discussion, but as a means to get out of the EU. For them calling a referendum is a start of the discussion process that will see us out, for Cameron it is a means to end the discussion.
One other point. In the early 1900s there was a significant section of the population that had come to the realisation that the two major parties did not represent their interests that in fact they had no voice in how their country was governed. So they went to a new party that seemed to offer them that voice. Not immediately in parliament perhaps but maybe it would do so in time and in the interim their voice might be head and pressure might be brought so that those in power did listen and act accordingly.
Of course at the start this new party was written off as irrelevant. Then the major parties introduced one or two token policies that the new party wanted, at the same time shouting out that, "See we can give what you want, but vote for your new party and the other lot will get in and then you will be screwed". However, the new party persevered and because it was driven by the people who had no voice rather than by the people who were trying to stay in charge it grew. It grew in numbers and eventually in power till it finally achieved power (then because it was Labour it fecked the whole thing up, repeatedly, but one shouldn't push analogies too far).
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Ah the favourite delusion of the Tories; that somehow UKIP are as corrupt, self serving and devoid of principles as Cameron and his coterie.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Ah the favourite delusion of the Tories; that somehow UKIP are as corrupt, self serving and devoid of principles as Cameron and his coterie.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
That's a real wanker of a plan.
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Ah the favourite delusion of the Tories; that somehow UKIP are as corrupt, self serving and devoid of principles as Cameron and his coterie.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
Anyone who thinks Miliband in Downing Street is better for Eurosceptics than Cameron is UTTERLY deluded.
Concerning the two topics in your post, a female friend recently admitted she was raped in Dubai several years ago. I asked her if she had told the police and she said of course not, referencing this case:
It made me wonder how many rapes happen in Arabian countries that aren't reported because the victim will be blamed for adultery. How many Arab men regularly rape tourists, knowing this, I wonder?
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
Anyone who thinks Miliband in Downing Street is better for Eurosceptics than Cameron is UTTERLY deluded.
Does anyone say that? I thought the idea was it would be exactly the same.
Cameron's remark that he could 'never foresee a situation where Britain might leave the EU' was indeed ludicrous. I sometimes wonder if he is simply stupid. Or perhaps, more likely, he is so lazily arrogant he doesn't think before he speaks.
And a lot of Tories openly say that he can't possibly admit what he wants in renegotiation because that's part of his master plan of not giving anything away to the EU. What a tactical genius: he can't say what his demands are, but he can say he wouldn't leave even if they're not met.
'They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.'
Just a tad bitter?
Why bitter? Cameron is a politicians with a particular set of beliefs that are not my own. That applies to almost every other politician around. The difference is that Cameron remaining in power makes it many magnitudes less likely that we will ever achieve the goals I hold to be important. It is a simple matter of practicality and pragmatism. For my aims to be achieved Cameron's have to fail and he has to no longer be Prime Minister.
" The EU will remain committed to "closer union" and Britain's "special case" will not lead to treaty change in the near future, Jose Manuel Barroso has warned the Prime Minister.
In a major speech the president of the European Commission acknowledged Britain's longstanding hostility to the EU but rejected David Cameron's demand for a treaty renegotiation to give the UK a special status over the next year"
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Ah the favourite delusion of the Tories; that somehow UKIP are as corrupt, self serving and devoid of principles as Cameron and his coterie.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
That's a real wanker of a plan.
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
I really do struggle with the notion perpetuated that leaving the EU is a panacea. Most of the things people dislike would be done anyway regardless of membership. It really is a monumental scam, as perpetuated by political charlatans down the ages. UKIP are scapegoating Europe, they are saying that everything is their fault and if the problem is eliminated all will be peaches and cream. I'm sorry but that sounds like it has unfortunate historic precedent.
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Ah the favourite delusion of the Tories; that somehow UKIP are as corrupt, self serving and devoid of principles as Cameron and his coterie.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
That's a real wanker of a plan.
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
Sorry Richard this Cameron obsession doesn't do kippers any favours. Like Mr Llama I'm no fan of Mr C., he's pretty much a failure on his own terms. But if a bus hit him tomorrow you'd be no closer to a referendum than you are now, certainly not a winnable one at any rate.
On paper I should be a kipper voter but when you and mike go off on a cameron is the antichrist monologue it makes you look slightly demented and I can't quite bring myself to putting an X against ukip. I see little difference between Labour's bodge job on Clegg and UKIP on Cameron. Both attacks just look like they're being orchestrated by Dr Strangelove and friends.
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
Anyone who thinks Miliband in Downing Street is better for Eurosceptics than Cameron is UTTERLY deluded.
The aim is to leave the EU. A Tory party under Cameron will not deliver that. Neither will a Labour party under Miliband.
The difference is that it is not possible to envisage a Labour party under an alternative leader being in favour of BOO.
The same does not apply to the Tory party. Get rid of Cameron and it is possible (although of course not certain) that we will get a Tory party led by someone who will support our leaving the EU.
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Ah the favourite delusion of the Tories; that somehow UKIP are as corrupt, self serving and devoid of principles as Cameron and his coterie.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
That's a real wanker of a plan.
. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
Replace "Us" with "Scotland" and "EU" with "the UK"......how does that sound?
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Ah the favourite delusion of the Tories; that somehow UKIP are as corrupt, self serving and devoid of principles as Cameron and his coterie.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
That's a real wanker of a plan.
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
I really do struggle with the notion perpetuated that leaving the EU is a panacea. Most of the things people dislike would be done anyway regardless of membership. It really is a monumental scam, as perpetuated by political charlatans down the ages. UKIP are scapegoating Europe, they are saying that everything is their fault and if the problem is eliminated all will be peaches and cream. I'm sorry but that sounds like it has unfortunate historic precedent.
You crudely stereotype UKIP's position and then reject it because it sounds like 'historical precedents'. UKIP have clearly laid out how the European Union holds us back based on specifics: we can not sign our own trade deals, we can not control our own borders, we spend billions each year on regional funds that often go missing in Southern and Eastern Europe. Those things could clearly be corrected if we were not in the EU. The only one trying to have a panacea here is Cameron, who constantly says all our EU problems will be sorted with "renegotiation", without providing any detail on what would actually be renegotiated.
" The EU will remain committed to "closer union" and Britain's "special case" will not lead to treaty change in the near future, Jose Manuel Barroso has warned the Prime Minister.
In a major speech the president of the European Commission acknowledged Britain's longstanding hostility to the EU but rejected David Cameron's demand for a treaty renegotiation to give the UK a special status over the next year"
For my aims to be achieved Camerons have to fail and he has to no longer be Prime Minister.
Fair enough.
My view is there is absolutely no difference between the three europhile parties other than the amount of spin they need to keep their voters on board so the best chance of getting out of the clutches of the corrupt monster state is a reverse takeover of el Cons with c. 2/3 Con vote and 1/3 Lab vote.
Ukip seem to be chugging along quite nicely on that.
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
Anyone who thinks Miliband in Downing Street is better for Eurosceptics than Cameron is UTTERLY deluded.
Hurrah! We have waited long enough but at last Scott expresses an opinion of his own! Just rejoice at that news.
Get rid of Cameron and it is possible (although of course not certain) that we will get a Tory party led by someone who will support our leaving the EU.
Get rid of the only leader who has offered a referendum in favour of a leader who will sign any and all treaties put in front of him.
"I sometimes wonder if he is simply stupid. Or perhaps, more likely, he is so lazily arrogant he doesn't think before he speaks. "
Lazily arrogant? Yeah, that is probably the best summation of Cameron I have heard. Fits him to a T
Wellington once supposedly said that the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eaton. Maybe if Cameron's contemporaries had given him a few good kickings on the rugger field, or even during wall game, he would have made a much better PM.
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
Anyone who thinks Miliband in Downing Street is better for Eurosceptics than Cameron is UTTERLY deluded.
The aim is to leave the EU. A Tory party under Cameron will not deliver that. Neither will a Labour party under Miliband.
The difference is that it is not possible to envisage a Labour party under an alternative leader being in favour of BOO.
The same does not apply to the Tory party. Get rid of Cameron and it is possible (although of course not certain) that we will get a Tory party led by someone who will support our leaving the EU.
and in a nutshell that's why I won't vote kipper. Despite all the posturing on taking votes from Labour the plan is to be a pressure group on one party. It's clueless. If you want out changing the leader of party with a third of the votes won't get you there.
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
Ah the favourite delusion of the Tories; that somehow UKIP are as corrupt, self serving and devoid of principles as Cameron and his coterie.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
That's a real wanker of a plan.
Its a better one with a better chance of success than hoping that we will ever get out of the EU whilst Cameron is in charge. Anyone who thinks he will ever accept us leaving the EU is utterly deluded.
I really do struggle with the notion perpetuated that leaving the EU is a panacea. Most of the things people dislike would be done anyway regardless of membership. It really is a monumental scam, as perpetuated by political charlatans down the ages. UKIP are scapegoating Europe, they are saying that everything is their fault and if the problem is eliminated all will be peaches and cream. I'm sorry but that sounds like it has unfortunate historic precedent.
No one said it is a panacea, only that it is better than the alternative of staying in. The monumental scam is the one perpetuated by the Europhiles like yourself who try to convince people that the UK has benefited from EU membership. It simply isn't true, as more and more people are now coming to realise.
I like the "politics of the answer against the politics of anger" line.
I think the Labour PEB was good as an anti-Clegg hit aimed at RedLibs but a lot of people seem to think it was anti-Tory. No doubt it was intended to be but it wasn't. Making the Cameroons out to be old-style competent Toffs is **positive** for the Tories relatively speaking even if the overall context is negative. The right way for Labour to attack is not Toffs but spivs something like
...
bod passing spiv in the street
spiv: psst mate, want to score some royal mail?
bod: how much?
spiv: £100, worth £400
bod: got anything else, any water, rail, any nice power companies?
spiv: nah all gone mate, not much left - royal mail though, lovely, £100 a quarter worth £400
bod: sure you got nothing better - any NHS?
spiv: no nhs yet, it'll be a year or two, i've got some allotments - worth £50 yours for a tenner
bod turns his nose up. okay give me a quarter of royal mail
spiv: lovely jubbly
bod gets his cheque book out
spiv: eh, eh mate don't be silly, cash only mate, cash only
Salaam from Dubai. Strangest country ever. Not entirely horrible.
Helmer's 'controversial' comments on rape show the disconnect between the political classes and the public, and underline UKIP's appeal.
All he has said is that a woman who goes out drinking til two, and then encourages a man to believe she wants sex, before changing her mind, is more responsible for what happens if she gets raped , than some nun who gets raped at knifepoint in a convent. He's not saying rape can ever be excused, just that women can act in ways which make rape more likely and that is a factor when determining the punishment of the crime.
Probably 79% of the public would agree with this. Yet all the main parties are signed up to the ridiculous feminist notion that all rapes are the same and all rapists deserve 80 years in jail, and the woman's behaviour is totally irrelevant even if she drinks three crates of gin and walks naked into a jacuzzi full of rugby players saying Take Me Now.
How did we arrive at this position, where we are governed by an entire class of people whose views we find absurd?
Yep, you are right
It is because there didn't used to be an alternative.
If you park your car in a city centre and forget to lock it, would you be surprised if someone opened the door and stole some valuables?
Comments
I also agree that the Conservative price seems a little short.
Yes.....and no.
Yes.....the UKIP threat is big enough for the EU to realise it will have to do something substantial
No......the something substantial might be enough for soft kippers to switch back.
Pointless protest art? Tick.
Guardian? Tick.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/08/ukip-billboard-poster-international-grey-paint
It's quite funny though.
I mean, there's UKIP paranoia, and there's believing that Tap must be a tool of the 'main political parties'.
[Incidentally, as I've posted before, UKIP's enthusiasm for fracking is a significant point - I don't think voters in the leafy shires have yet picked up on it.]
*Innocent Face*
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2
Quite a way from Deal or No Deal tbh - that truly is mindless.
A truly weird genius.
Have you ever attempted to use the intercom at Baker St?
I might kick it away, and leave them hanging in the air.
Love to know how they get on when they canvass homes of Bristol Rugby, City or Rovers fans given the blocking tactics over ground redevelopments. Guy had seen LDs, nothing from Labour.
Clegg: 25 (UKIP 38, L 34)
Miliband: 14 (C 26)
Gove: 13 (LD 26)
Balls: 12 (C 24)
Cameron: 10 (L 19, UKIP 16)
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/2u32ygocz5/YG-Archive-140502-hatedpoliticians.pdf
Although my favourite of theirs is Jerusalem on the Moors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1C5V9i6lCE
If you put a non-halal shop in an area with a high percentage of Muslim residents you aren't going to sell much.
They also awarded money for the worst piece of modern art in the Turner Prize as judged by the public. Rachel Whitehead won both the main prize, and the KLF's prize, for her abomination of an inside-out house. She refused to accept the prize money, so they nailed it to a door.
See more at:
http://www.penkilnburn.com/
Football managers from all four divisions of the English leagues have agreed to take part in a new series of ground-breaking “Question Time” style debates which will be broadcast live.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/10815740/Football-managers-to-take-part-in-Question-Time-style-debates-live-on-TV.html
Like everything to do with the KLF, the myth has probably overtaken the reality.
My first gf loved the JAMMs. I still have her gatefold copy of 'Shag Times' (*). It's a shame I no longer have a record player ...
(*) Actually, as it was released in 1989 it can't have been her. Must have been her sister ... ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBUpfr6l6gQ
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/08/david-cameron-criticises-ukip-nigel-farage
I like the "politics of the answer against the politics of anger" line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdTELokKfCk&feature=kp
P.S. Must confess this Baker Street stuff has been quite an eye-opener to me. Never heard the expression before, Mr. Jessop's link left me even more confused (a B-side is to do with old fashioned records, isn't it?) only when Mr. Fett chipped in did I begin to understand, I think.
I bet 'Gary joins the JAMs' doesn't get played much any more. *innocent face*
Somewhere I've also got an original copy of The Manual - or how to have a Number One hit single the easy way. Available on-line here:
http://freshonthenet.co.uk/the-manual-by-the-klf/
When's it on ?
I've also got the 12 inch version on vinyl as well that 7 inch vinyl.... top that matey blokey!
Scaremongering.. BT tactics
I am someone who would vote to leave the EU (despite my many questions regarding the implementing of such a policy with some many Europeans currently living here) and want the chance to have this vote.
If UKIP achieve above 15% at the GE then Miliband will be PM. There will then be absolutely no chance of a referendum. The unions will not allow it. Therefore I will not get my vote.
Can anyone who supports UKIP give me a reason for supporting UKIP at the GE when it seems that if I do I will be helping to ensure that the British people do not get a chance to vote on the EU. Please do not give me the nonsense that UKIP will be able to put pressure on Milliband. He is a union man.
I simply cannot get my head around the UKIP reasoning. Why wouldn't they encourage their supporters to vote for a party who are actually going to implement UKIPs only policy. I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.
Even if you entirely trust the Conservatives to give you the referendum, that will only happen if they win a majority at the next election. Neither the Lib Dems nor Labour would agree to one as the price of coalition, seeing as they would both prefer to go into coalition with each other. Given that even a huge improvement in the vote for the Conservatives won't get them the six or seven point lead they need for an absolute majority, we're not going to get a European referendum in the next parliamentary term.
The question then becomes, what's most likely to cause one in the term after next: a stronger Conservative performance at the next election, or a stronger UKIP performance? For me, it is pretty clear that it is only the latter that bounced the Conservatives into holding a referendum, and if UKIP fades away as a threat, then the Tories won't put it in their 2020 manifesto. A stronger UKIP performance will, on the other hand, shake the establishment to its core - and would be interpreted as the reason Miliband failed to win an outright majority if that happened. That will also make Labour more eurosceptic - for purely tactical reasons - in future.
How to argue like a Europhile, method #1: Speak in high level woolly terms that have little connection to practical reality.
Frank Furedi in Spiked:
"Why the propaganda war on UKIP has failed
Farage's popularity exposes the aloofness of the political class":
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/why-the-propaganda-war-on-ukip-has-failed/14984#.U2tpe1eh5wF
Fundamentally, Cameron's problem is that he started off as a One Nation (Macmillan, Heath) type Tory rather than a Thatcherite.The Tory right have dragged him into addressing issues such as Europe that are close to their heart. The problem is this doesn't work as Cameron is insincere. He hasn't suddenly turned into a Thatcherite over night! He is just trying to fob off the right (and potential UKIP supporters) until he has won re-election.
' I have a feeling that the upper echelons of UKIP do not actually want a referendum as if one is held then UKIP have achieved their aim and are finished as a protest party as are their political careers.'
Spot on,UKIP MEP's enjoy the gravy train just like other politicians,turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
UKIP want a referendum they can win. They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.
Maybe you are right, but I've never heard Barrosso speak in those terms before, so I thought it worth posting.
I probably don't like the EU any more than you do, and I've been very skeptical they would do a meaningful deal.
Now, with UKIP rampant and other nationalist parties doing well all over northern Europe, I'm not so sure. I'm starting to think they might.
UKIP 4/7 (Lad)
Lab 15/8 (SJ, Hills)
Con 50/1 (Betfair)
LD 1000/1 (Betfair)
...
bod passing spiv in the street
spiv: psst mate, want to score some royal mail?
bod: how much?
spiv: £100, worth £400
bod: got anything else, any water, rail, any nice power companies?
spiv: nah all gone mate, not much left - royal mail though, lovely, £100 a quarter worth £400
bod: sure you got nothing better - any NHS?
spiv: no nhs yet, it'll be a year or two, i've got some allotments - worth £50 yours for a tenner
bod turns his nose up. okay give me a quarter of royal mail
spiv: lovely jubbly
bod gets his cheque book out
spiv: eh, eh mate don't be silly, cash only mate, cash only
bod sighs and gets wallet out
...
that's the way to do it
Con 8/13 (Lad)
Lab 4/1 (Hills)
UKIP 5/1 (Bet365, PP)
LD 250/1 (various)
I'm sure there are other provincial equivalents...
It is because there didn't used to be an alternative.
I'm not inherently anti-EU. If we had a EU which was based around common defence, a solid alliance with the USA, stamping out democratic abuses in member states, and a global free trade outlook, I could support it. But right now it's defining characteristics are mass migration, a destructive system of agricultural subsidies, and protectionism with the rest of the world. We're not going to get anything of any merit on any of those three in the renegotiation.
Cameron has promised a referendum on staying in the EU. He has also promised to renegotiate our terms of membership in less than two years despite every other major power saying that such a thing is impossible. He has also said that he cannot foresee the circumstances in which in will be in the UK's interests to leave. So if you believe that Britain will be better off out, Cameron's negotiate and choose referendum promise might seem, shall we say,slightly less than straightforward.
In terms of negotiation he has already blown it - by saying he wants to stay in regardless of the outcome he has ensured that no other player will take him seriously. He has also by the same means ensured that there is a significant chunk of people who believe him to be fundamentally dishonest.
UKIP by contrast do not want a referendum as a means to silence internal discussion, but as a means to get out of the EU. For them calling a referendum is a start of the discussion process that will see us out, for Cameron it is a means to end the discussion.
One other point. In the early 1900s there was a significant section of the population that had come to the realisation that the two major parties did not represent their interests that in fact they had no voice in how their country was governed. So they went to a new party that seemed to offer them that voice. Not immediately in parliament perhaps but maybe it would do so in time and in the interim their voice might be head and pressure might be brought so that those in power did listen and act accordingly.
Of course at the start this new party was written off as irrelevant. Then the major parties introduced one or two token policies that the new party wanted, at the same time shouting out that, "See we can give what you want, but vote for your new party and the other lot will get in and then you will be screwed". However, the new party persevered and because it was driven by the people who had no voice rather than by the people who were trying to stay in charge it grew. It grew in numbers and eventually in power till it finally achieved power (then because it was Labour it fecked the whole thing up, repeatedly, but one shouldn't push analogies too far).
'They are campaigning for that and the best way they can get it is to make sure the Cameroons are destroyed.'
Just a tad bitter?
Concerning the two topics in your post, a female friend recently admitted she was raped in Dubai several years ago. I asked her if she had told the police and she said of course not, referencing this case:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13680409
It made me wonder how many rapes happen in Arabian countries that aren't reported because the victim will be blamed for adultery. How many Arab men regularly rape tourists, knowing this, I wonder?
A barbaric culture.
" The EU will remain committed to "closer union" and Britain's "special case" will not lead to treaty change in the near future, Jose Manuel Barroso has warned the Prime Minister.
In a major speech the president of the European Commission acknowledged Britain's longstanding hostility to the EU but rejected David Cameron's demand for a treaty renegotiation to give the UK a special status over the next year"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10816394/Jose-Manuel-Barroso-UK-will-not-stop-EU-from-building-much-closer-union.html
On paper I should be a kipper voter but when you and mike go off on a cameron is the antichrist monologue it makes you look slightly demented and I can't quite bring myself to putting an X against ukip. I see little difference between Labour's bodge job on Clegg and UKIP on Cameron. Both attacks just look like they're being orchestrated by Dr Strangelove and friends.
The difference is that it is not possible to envisage a Labour party under an alternative leader being in favour of BOO.
The same does not apply to the Tory party. Get rid of Cameron and it is possible (although of course not certain) that we will get a Tory party led by someone who will support our leaving the EU.
My view is there is absolutely no difference between the three europhile parties other than the amount of spin they need to keep their voters on board so the best chance of getting out of the clutches of the corrupt monster state is a reverse takeover of el Cons with c. 2/3 Con vote and 1/3 Lab vote.
Ukip seem to be chugging along quite nicely on that.
UTTERLY DELUDED.
http://www.news24.com/Elections/Results#map=live&election=national
Their lowest until now was 10.6 million in 1999. Currently they stand at 8.4 million with about 82% of districts reporting.
"I sometimes wonder if he is simply stupid. Or perhaps, more likely, he is so lazily arrogant he doesn't think before he speaks. "
Lazily arrogant? Yeah, that is probably the best summation of Cameron I have heard. Fits him to a T
Wellington once supposedly said that the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eaton. Maybe if Cameron's contemporaries had given him a few good kickings on the rugger field, or even during wall game, he would have made a much better PM.
Cameron:27
Miliband:5
Clegg:1
DK:67